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Monday Open Thread

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    It would (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:07:19 AM EST
    seem Trump is still sucking up all the political oxygen these days. I have to tip my hat to The Donald. Keep talking!

    When the GOP (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:33:54 AM EST
    ...hired as the president an actor who looked presidential and could read convincingly any damn thing in front of him, it set events in motion that led directly to Donald Trump.

    For the GOP, politics is showbiz.  Who needs substance if you have style?

    Now a guy who is an expert on show biz and NOTHING ELSE has taken over the voting bloc that only knows outrage.

    Moar popcorn.

    Parent

    Popcorn (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:00:38 AM EST
    indeed.
    I can't remember enjoying much of anything more than I have enjoyed watching the image makers tie themselves in knots trying to explain/rationalize/minimize/marginalize Trump.
    It's so clear they have absolutely no clue what drives his supporters.  To admit that would be to accept the hollow craven hateful nature of the republican base.

    Trump may be, in the long run, very helpful to the party.  If he splits these people off, which is looking really likely, so that the party without them can start to again be a party relevant to governing instead of a party dedicated to exactly the opposite.  
    The country needs at least two nationaly viable parties IMO.  

    Donald Trump, savior of the Republican Party by causing it to implode.  

    Jeb is giving a speech today about Conquering Mount Washington.  Noble.  IMO he won't need climbing boots he will need deep waders to conquer Swamp Trump.
     

    Parent

    Do you think (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:26:00 AM EST
    they really don't realize what a monster they've created or they just don't want to take responsibility for the monster? I can't decide if they really know why Trump is so appealing and just refuse to admit to it or they really are that out of touch with their own voters.

    Parent
    They know (none / 0) (#9)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:07:38 AM EST
    at this point they are just trying to convince everyone their name is "Fronkensteen" not "Frankenstein"

    Parent
    I think it's a combination (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:19:09 AM EST
    many of the talking heads simply are clueless.  Others, like Frank Luntz, have a more nuanced understanding.   Which is why recently the panic has been oozing through the screen and dripping on the floor when Luntz appears on cable news.

    Parent
    Luntz (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:25:25 AM EST
    is oozing panic?

    Parent
    Agreed. There is (none / 0) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:50:16 AM EST
    a double-barrelled panic--one that Trump might actually get the Republican nomination, and the other, that he won't.

     In the former, it is not so much that Trump is out of step with the base, he isn't; but that he is out of favor with Republican high rollers, who have invested in Jeb!

    In the later case, the panic stems from the worry that Trump will run as an Independent.  Frank Luntz has been quoted as saying if Trump runs as an Independent, Hillary Clinton will be the next president.  I would only add to Luntz, ..., by a much larger margin.

    Parent

    DC is (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:05:33 AM EST
    in geological term a swamp, not a mountain.   Noted without comment.

    Parent
    The clown car is not (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:22:04 PM EST
    likely to allow themselves to be trumped by Trump.  Extremism in defense of polling is no vice.  Scott Walker, who finds himself in a catch-up position after a busy time destroying Wisconsin, has said that the next president (look over here, please) may have to bomb Iran on inaugural day.  Which may set the new definition for "moderate Republican," as one who will not bomb anybody until Day 2.

    Parent
    FYI (none / 0) (#19)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:50:24 AM EST
    Chuck Todd of all people on 'Meet the Press' went after each of Trumps nonsensical claims about Mexicans, the border, and immigration. LINK


    • Could not find a single study that linked immigration to rape and violent crime.

    • Crime rate among first generation immigrates is lower than crime rate of country overall.

    • Number of unauthorized immigrants down.  From 12.2 million in 2007 to 11.2 in 2012, the last year that data was available.

    • Net migration for US/Mexico has been at zero since 2011, meaning as many Americans go to Mexico as Mexicans come to the US.

    • Border security is 84% effective.

    • Cost to seal border $28B, which is the entire DOJ budget.  We spent $18B a year.

    But I don't think any of Trump's fan base really cares about facts.

    For the record, The Huffington Post:

    After watching and listening to Donald Trump since he announced his candidacy for president, we have decided we won't report on Trump's campaign as part of The Huffington Post's political coverage. Instead, we will cover his campaign as part of our Entertainment section. Our reason is simple: Trump's campaign is a sideshow. We won't take the bait. If you are interested in what The Donald has to say, you'll find it next to our stories on the Kardashians and The Bachelorette.

    Ouch !!!

    Parent

    Now I want to see Chuck Todd and (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:52:41 AM EST
    all the other Sunday gabfest hosts take that same approach to all the candidates for president. I want them to do some actual old-fashioned reporting for once in their careers. For gawd's sake challenge the candidates on their policy positions. Tell us how these policies- support/opposition  for TPP, expanding or cutting Social Security, changes to voting rights, approving or denying the Keystone pipeline, to name just a few- will affect us, how they will play out for most Americans, and please tell us when someone fudges the facts or outright lies to us.

    I know it won't happen. The GOP is scared to death Trump might triumph, and, as the national press corp is the lapdog of power, the press will serve the interests of the GOP. And those interests do not extend beyond exposing the Trump's claims to the light of actual facts.

    Yes, it was good that Todd attempted actual journalism with Trump. Too bad this will be all he wrote.

    Parent

    That's not really an "ouch" (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:57:04 AM EST
    by the Huffington Post. That "news" site has become little more than entertainment and gossip anyway. And they tried to make more entertanment news by saying they aren't reporting Trump as news.

    Parent
    Facts go without saying (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:06:52 AM EST
    they certainly don't care about Chuck Todd.

    But sometimes we get a glimpse of Trumps attraction.  Example, the ABC Sunday interview.  Again I encourage you to see, or hear it, he was on the phone.  But there was a fascinating moment.
    Martha Raditz was running down his looooong list of offenses and indictments and she sniffs, "you even make fun of people's appearance".
    Donald sighed and said (paraphrase) "you now, people make fun of the way I look all the time.  They make fun of my hair.  And I don't whine about it.  And I don't remember you having a problem with that".

    And you know what, he is 100% correct.   People do make fun of his appearance all the time.  Cough, TrumpYourCat, cough.
    And he doesn't whine about it.   And Martha Raditz would no more consider coming on her Sunday morning show and solemnly addressing the mean people who constantly make fun of Donald Trumps appearance than she would consider a full facial tattoo.

    These are the moments of honesty and clarity that strike some like a diamond bullett to the forehead so they are completely oblivious to the next ten completely baths!t things he says.

    I have to admit I liked Raditz getting served.

    Parent

    Now that you mention reporting....... (none / 0) (#64)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:48:16 PM EST
    We all know about the Media's position vis-à-vis Hillary Clinton. It's certainly no surprise that all they're interested in during this current campaign is finding, and if they can't find it, making up, negative stuff about her. Since I do a fair amount of web-surfing, looking for stories that sound interesting, I've noticed the headlines, or teasers, mentioning Hillary have been growing more & more strident, and vitriolic.

    Now, that, also, is no surprise, but, yesterday, I ran across a headline that seemed to indicate the "reporter" who wrote the following Bash-Hillary article finally ran out of clever ways to slam her, and ended up shouting in desperation, in big bold letters, "THE 20 BIGGEST LIES HILLARY TOLD HER SUPPORTERS DURING THIS CAMPAIGN!!!"

    Ah, yes, the 4th Estate, standing strong, keeping us informed.


    Parent

    They are (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:54:03 PM EST
    going to become like talk radio where everything is so over the top in order to top the last thing they said that they are going to damage themselves.

    Perhaps after they have blown themselves up they can get back to reality.

    Parent

    Viva Cuba! (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:41:45 PM EST
    Embassies open in both countries. Hope I can get there before Americans ruin the place.

    I was there (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 01:57:53 AM EST
    I grew up in Ft Lauderdale and as a child my Mother decided the family was going to fly to Cuba on Vacation. It was 1957 I believe. We stayed at the Hotel National. The DeCastro Sisters were the entertainment there at the time. My Mother would not drink the water but enjoyed the Dacquiries by the pool. Mom, ice????? Heh. She got sick on the yellow rice and the ice and could not attend the show. So I became my Dad's date. I wore my little Easter dress and and drank Shirley Temples and felt so grown up. The Sisters even sang to me during their show and I was the little Princess for sure. We had hired a driver, Carlos, who took us to all the tourist sights which included cigar factories and the beautiful cemetaries. There were other interesting things but I was a kid. I just wanted to get back to the pool. The one cool thing I thought was that instead of traffic lights, who ever got to the interection first and honked their horn, had the right away. My memories of it could be compared to the other Carribean islands and Little Havana in Miami.
    One notable thing of those times, our neighbor was selling lots of exercise machines and making many weekly shipments to Cuba. He was flying to New Orleans aboard a National Airlines flight which exploded over the Gulf of Mexico. My Father was suppose to go with him but at the last minute could not get away from business. Another neighbor went instead. My Mother always was suspicious of those long narrow exercise boxes. I mean, he was able to buy a 40 ft yacht. Makes you wonder where the cash was coming from. Sounds like a mystery to me.

    Parent
    Trump is Bizarro the Winger Clown, I realize... (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:19:59 AM EST
    ...but I always love when fake blowhard bully McCain gets some mud thrown his way. Cuz it's the truth. (link)

    McCain's mythology is just that. More absurd ironies from American politics.

    Yep _ just wish Dems weren't feeling compelled (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:49:26 PM EST
    to rush to McCain's defense just as a reflex against Trump...just let it ride folks...

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#182)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 01:24:18 PM EST
    Sigh...

    Parent
    Wow -- (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 06:37:53 PM EST
    I'll bet that article sure made the Admiral's day back then -- and in Stars and Stripes no less.

    Parent
    Today's Numbers (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:25:10 AM EST
    13% of this open thread can be attributed to one person at the circus (for our purposes here to be referred to as the bearded lady). More importantly, 33% of the thread can be attributed (either directly or indirectly) to other participants at the circus in response to the bearded lady.

    That translates to 46% of this open thread revolving around the bearded lady sideshow.

    What role do the bearded lady responders have under this big tent? That's easy, they are the two-headed goats.

    I was going to do stats (none / 0) (#167)
    by sj on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:55:21 AM EST
    on Friday's Open Thread (30 comments out of 206 total for jim alone), but it was just depressing.

    But maybe we could make this a regular feature.

    Parent

    Or maybe...the person making 30 (none / 0) (#169)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:08:48 PM EST
    comments in opposition to many of this blog's positions could be limited to 4 comments per day on those topics, in accordance with the blog's rules.

    Parent
    The Clinton Rules (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:47:32 AM EST
    Great - (none / 0) (#194)
    by Nemi on Wed Jul 22, 2015 at 06:05:54 AM EST
    albeit deeply depressing summary. Same Shit Different Day, eh. :(

    Parent
    I (4.75 / 4) (#196)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jul 22, 2015 at 06:44:19 AM EST
    have passed the depression phase and have moved on to acceptance. CNN is bashing HRC over her "trust" issues as I type this, it's a constant drone from the media. Every few cycles they will say "question still remain" over e_mail or CGI, Benghazi or some other BS. They never actually frame the question much less attempt to answer it, you know, like journalism 101.

    Parent
    If you look at Jim's chart closely (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 22, 2015 at 12:18:37 PM EST
    you'll see that it not only refutes human-influenced climate change, it also proves that the universe was created in six days, that Saddam had WMDs right along, and that Bush really wanted more than anything to get into combat in Vietnam. All in one fell swoop.

    And anyone who says different hates America.

     

    Songbird (none / 0) (#3)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:48:30 AM EST
    Will the current brouhaha between Trump and McCain touch on any of this:

    McCain EXPOSED By Vietnam Vets And Pow's

    McCain and the POW Cover-up

    The tea (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:59:37 AM EST
    partiers are shopping that stuff all over the internet in defense of The Donald.

    None of that is news. George W. Bush went after McCain basically calling him a traitor and no one in the GOP batted an eye. Trump is giving them a meltdown. LOL.

    Parent

    There was a Great Clip... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:29:44 AM EST
    ...surprisingly on CNN:
    On Sunday, CNN host Jake Tapper reminded Republicans who were outraged over attacks on Sen. John McCain's war record that their entire party had been united in smearing then-Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's military service in 2004.

    Turning to Texas Republican Rep. Will Hurd, Tapper recalled that delegates at the Republican National Convention wore Band-Aids with purple hearts to mock Kerry's wounds during the Vietnam War, which was a continuation of the successful "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" smear campaign.

    "Is there a double standard here?" Tapper wondered. "Are Republicans -- they say, 'There's no place in our party to disparage those who have served honorably.' Well, unless you're a Democrat?"

    LINK

    The groan is the sound of an entire party stuck between a rock and a hard place, Trump and the RNC.

    Popcorn is so 90's, this is the new age entertainment and I want a strong drink and maybe a pizza with napkins so I can wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes as the weasels condemn Trump for doing exactly what they did.

    What is even more shocking, Trump fans are on board with going after McCain.

    And people think Democrats are worried about Trump.  If I had no morals, I would send the man a fat check and follow Limbaugh's advise and vote for him in the Texas R primaries.

    Parent

    Jeb! (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:20:05 PM EST
    Condemns Trump for besmirching a war veteran. Yet he praised and thanked, the Swiftboaters for doing the same. Color me shocked.

    Parent
    What goes around comes around, etc. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:36:38 PM EST
    The swift-boating of John Kerry was certainly more than acquiesced in by the Repubs, as you note.  Then wildly pushed it; and, the Press condoned the approach by it's passive approach ... unless my memory has really grown faulty, the gaming Press blandly looked behind the false political accusations by the tarnished Repubs.

    And, equally reprehensible reporting (or lack thereof) by the Press: When former Senator Saxby Chambliss (R) attacked Max Cleland--Cleland who lost legs and an arm in fighting for his country--in the same type of manner by picturing the Democrat in ads during the campaign that superimposed an image of bin Laden, these Repub hypocrites hit a low point.

    Let that party stew in it.  (Oh, and I think that pizza and a good drink would be better than popcorn--I agree with Scott.)

    Parent

    Bread, Circuses, (none / 0) (#68)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:57:18 PM EST
    and Suckers.

    Parent
    Or (none / 0) (#72)
    by Palli on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:19:04 PM EST
    will this GOP hoopla have the opposite effect and someone will ride in on the white horse of unity.

    McCain is a dangerous fraud. I don't care who knows it. He is the worst of our skewed representative government.  But like Reagan, in the end the GOP needs heroes and McCain is what they got-a fabricated hoax.

    My father spent most of the American WWII in German prison camps. Years before the Swift boat hoax, he saw a PBS special on Nam POWs. He easily recognized McCain as an untrustworthy fellow POW and knew the other POWs knew it too.

    Parent

    I can't (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:33:23 PM EST
    imagine who that would be though.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#79)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:33:36 PM EST
    biggest problem for the GOP is they have created such a varied group of monsters that they simply cannot satisfy them all. They have cynically and constantly used the fringe group rubes and rarely delivered on the national stage.

    Over the past few months the evangelicals got hammered by gay marriage, the TP's continue to get Obama care crammed down their throat and the racists have lost their precious flag. Right now many of them have little reason to show up in November 16, especially if the clown they vote for in March is not on the ticket.

    The McCain saga is a perfect example of the way Republicans treat their supporters. Veterans are heroes when it suits them politically, lying traitors when it doesn't. After the votes are counted they are ignored. Unless your name is  W. Bush then you juice them for 150k + expenses. Talk about despicable.

    Parent

    A wingnut blog piece (none / 0) (#136)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    ... and a Youtube video.

    Why would they?

    Parent

    From another thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:25:32 AM EST

    Just as I wrote in this blog during the 2004 election that I honored John Kerry's service in Vietnam his actions as a war protester opened him up to criticism. McCain's attacks on Trump and the people who attended the meeting opened McCain up to criticism.

    Except Kerry was attacked for his actions while in Vietnam by the infamous Swiftboating campaign, not for his activities afterward.

    Let's all get some Purple Heart bandages and wear them in order to honor McCain from now on.

    Uh, no. Kerry had drawn long and loud (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:31:36 AM EST
    condemnation for what he had done while he was doing it as well as for what many thought was a fake wound and a way home. The Swift Boaters were merely repeating the charges.

    I have never been happy with the charges against him. Riding on a boat in the middle of a river is the definition of "setting duck" and it took courage to do it.

    OTOH Kerry is a proven liar about his claimed service in Cambodia and his actions in protest are despicable as are his actions in the surrender to Iran.

    Your link to the woman with a band aid on her chin   to honor McCain is curious. While there is no doubt about McCain's injuries the band aid is what the Swift Boaters claimed Kerry's injuries amounted to.

    Parent

    We (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:52:25 AM EST
    are talking about the Republican's gleeful, coordinated and sustained mockery of a veteran that they happen to oppose versus the total outrage they show to an off-hand remark about one of theirs.

    When you label Kerry despicable for his anti-war protests, you are also labeling millions and millions of Americans who shared his views as despicable. That's funny coming from such a free speech advocate as yourself.

    Note to the clueless: The band-aids were meant to degrade a veterans service they were in no way meant to "honor" anybody

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:06:01 PM EST
    When you label Kerry despicable for his anti-war protests, you are also labeling millions and millions of Americans who shared his views as despicable.

    And that I support people's right to say despicable things shouldn't surprise you.

    And it's funny. Kerry brought the subject of Vietnam up when he addressed the convention but he didn't want to talk about it or his protests and what they cost.

    Paybacks are hell.

    Parent

    And it's funny.. (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:56:04 PM EST
    Because the people who secretly sold wmds to the Iranians and burglarized Democratic Headquarters would NEVER have mentioned Kerry's war record during a campaign if he hadn't brought it up first..

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    it's just typical blaming someone else for their own disgusting behavior. it's what they do all the time.

    Parent
    the people who stole Carter's debate notes (none / 0) (#170)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:08:50 PM EST
    sabotaged the '68 Peace Talks..subjected us all to a public in-depth, forensic analysis of Clinton's sex life..

    Those were the Men of Honor who knew nothing about "politics as blood sport", until, Jim says, the Democrats taught them by being mean to Newt Gingrich or something..

    Parent

    It is (none / 0) (#40)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:32:41 PM EST
    also totally unsurprising that you are willing to label a majority of the American people as despicable just because they do not share your opinions. That's just par for the course for you.

    Parent
    He also knows more about climate science (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    than Nobel Prize winners.

    Probably because he reads Holy Scripture and they don't.

    Parent

    And he's more Catholic that Pope Francis, ... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:43:05 PM EST
    ... who both holds a master's degree in chemistry, and has recently issued an encyclical on the reality of climate change.

    In fact, His Holiness is hosting an international conference on that very subject this week in Rome, to which he's invited California Gov. Jerry Brown to address the attendees.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Can we go to the conference? (none / 0) (#78)
    by fishcamp on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:59:45 PM EST
    I need to know more about El Niño and la nena.

    Parent
    Do you also embrace his positions (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:10:41 PM EST
    on divorce and abortion??

    Parent
    Jerry's positions? (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:27:52 PM EST
    oculus I was going to give a long response (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:41:14 PM EST
    to the above question you are referring to, but decided

    this was the more appropriate answer

    Parent

    Just another hoaxer that pope.. (none / 0) (#172)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:16:26 PM EST
    in it for the donations.

    Parent
    jondee, reading the Bible (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:19:57 PM EST
    and about climate change is not mutually exclusive.


    Parent
    As a guide to astrophysiscs (none / 0) (#171)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:13:18 PM EST
    cosmology, atmospheric chemistry and evolution it won't get you very far. Sorry.

    Except maybe on The 700 Club.

    Parent

    Does that include the Gospel (none / 0) (#83)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:53:13 PM EST
    Of the World According to Jim?

    Parent
    Bertolt Bretch (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:39:08 PM EST

    Some party hack decreed that the people
    had lost the government's confidence
    and could only regain it with redoubled effort.
    If that is the case, would it not be simpler,
    If the government simply dissolved the people
    And elected another?



    Parent
    Kerry (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:56:30 AM EST
    still has shrapnel in his body to this day from some of his wounds but you don't care about facts.

    Your hero George W. also called McCain a traitor and it was crickets from the GOP peanut gallery back then. And then we can list all the lies the GOP told about Kerry and then Max Cleland and on and on the list goes.

    Trump should get no guff from the morons at GOP central about this. They all participated in the same thing and he should point this out to them and tell them to STFU about what he said and he really should bang Perry and Jebya over the head with it because there is tape and letters showing them doing the exact same thing Trump is doing. And they did the trashing without even offering better medical care to veterans like Trump is.


    Parent

    GA, you are making things up (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:16:29 PM EST
    I have never said that Kerry was not wounded.

    And I Googled

    George W. also called McCain a traitor
    and didn't find that.
    Perhaps you can provide a link.

    As the Democrats taught the Repubs in 1992, politics  is a blood sport.

    Parent

    Five (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:35:51 PM EST
    senators rebuked George W. Bush for his lies link

    Blood sport? Good grief you think the GOP was nice before 1992? You're crazy. One of the reasons the GOP hates the Clintons so much is that they do fight back and don't take anything the GOP tosses out lying down.

    Parent

    The Dems taught the Repubs.. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:51:16 PM EST
    Really. Interesting.

    Why? Because a couple of lil ole break-in and burglaries in the early Seventies was just clean, wholesome politics-as-usual?

    Parent

    During the 1988 (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    presidential election, the story was bruited about that George HW Bush was not a World War II hero as had been portrayed.  The account of Bush, who was the pilot and the  only crew member who survived when the plane went down, was questioned.   Michael Dukakis, the Democratic candidate, defended Bush's record.

    Parent
    that link (none / 0) (#45)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:51:06 PM EST
     states the Senators rebuked GW for distorting McCain's positions on verterans; issues and POW/MIA matters, not that he accused McCain of being a traitor or engaging in misconduct while serving.

      A pretty hefty difference exists  between the two.

    Parent

    That does (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:02:10 PM EST
    not change the fact that the whole Bush family gladly condoned the trashing of decorated war vets such as Kerry. The whole Republican establishment stood by while the likes of Ann Coulter smeared Max Cleland. Now that's what I call despicable.

    Parent
    I'm not defending Bush (none / 0) (#53)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:07:48 PM EST
      just pointing out his comments have been misleading at best.

     

    Parent

    Driving back (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:09:28 PM EST
    to Denver yesterday after a few lovely mountain days, husband & I had time to talk about the "What's it all about, Alfie-Donald" hoopla (because traffic jam.)  

     Political-science PhD husband felt reasonably confident that Trump had seen his rise end with his derogatory comments about soldier-captive-heroes ... then, having lots of time to talk further, we re-explored the Repub attacks on Kerry and Cleland AND how surprised we were that few outside the official party seemed to come to the defense of known soldier hero-patriots.  Then, we wondered further if the so-called Repub base would even care what was said about McCain ... that that component of the base would only be emboldened by the open opposition & tear down by the media since it would indicate that he was taking on the establishment and DC.

    Granted the definition of "patriot" has too often been appropriated by political flag-wavers and pin-wavers who have a different viewpoint than the opponent.  And, really ironically, the "patriot game" may be about ready to bite the Repubs in the butt. So, today, I hear that Limbaugh is supporting Trump in his latest blather....

    Lots of twists & turns to date.  Is Trump really helping Bush by keeping the hot-spotlight off of him for now (thus allowing the $$$$$ funding to start overwhelming the opposition) OR is Trump setting up a 3rd party run after unmasking crucial, explosive  Repub positions in a reductio ad absurdum way (thereby guaranteeing Clinton's election)? OR is he merely a megalomaniac (who happens to know the hot-buttons to push)?

    Fascinating.

    Parent

    Since (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:59:15 PM EST
    that one obviously link didn't work here's an entire article about everything George W. Bush lied about John McCain to lying about his daughter to lying about McCain's service.

    Parent
    GA, the first link worked fine (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    and so did the second.

    Neither provided any proof of your claim that Bush called McCain a traitor.

    Instead:

    Nothing has ever been turned up, however, tying the Bush team to an underground-smear "master plan."


    Parent
    "many thought was a fake wound" (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:27:19 PM EST
    That's a rather cowardly, weasly way of accusing Kerry without accusing him directly.

    "Many people think"..

    And from another chickenhawk who was never within a few thousand miles of Vietnam, no less.

    Parent

    jondee, that's Mondrggian's (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:50:37 PM EST
    quote of something that I never said.

    Parent
    Karl Rove (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:09:28 PM EST
    Bush's brain sent out the fake veterans to say it. So was Bush a moron that didn't know what was going on or did he okay it? You figure it out.

    Parent
    Not Sure Why You Are Discussing Bush... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:43:25 PM EST
    ...when Jim's man Trump blatantly disparaged Jim's other man's (McCain's) military service to this country, not 24 hours ago on the TV, then doubled down today.

    Trump said:

    "He's not a war hero," Trump said at the Iowa Family Leadership Summit when moderator Frank Luntz brought up McCain, who spent more than five years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

    Immediately modifying his original remarks, Trump said, "He's a war hero 'cause he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, OK?"

      LINK

    The modification was actually mocking McCain's capture.

    Now is the point where Jim explains how what he said is not really what he said, or goes back to Kerry because he doesn't want to talk about the slimy politician he's been defending since day one.  Two peas in a pod, devout of human decency.

    Parent

    Scott, it is so nice of you to decide (2.00 / 2) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:18:39 PM EST
    who my "man" is. This is what I wrote:

    He (Trump) certainly keeps things stirred, eh? But if you watch this video you will find that Trump says McCain is a hero because he was captured.
    Some of you will think that I am supposed to be disturbed over that. Read what I wrote to Donald in a previous thread. I pointed out McCain is a hero because of his actions after he was captured, not because he was a pilot or was captured. Being a pilot is hazardous and being shot down was known to happen. Just as flaming out during a cat shot and crashing into the water, or a thousand other disasters, happens. Pilots are brave, tough and highly skilled but they are not heroes just because they strap an airplane to their butts and challenge death on a daily basis. It is part of the job.

    I am not pleased with Trump's comment that he likes people who aren't captured. That was not necessary but it is just Trump pushing his "winner" meme. Trump did note his previous support for McCain.

    Just as I wrote in this blog during the 2004 election that I honored John Kerry's service in Vietnam his actions as a war protester opened him up to criticism. McCain's attacks on Trump and the people who attended the meeting opened McCain up to criticism.

    Parent

    Trust me Jim... (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:21:17 AM EST
    ...no one here thinks you would ever be 'disturbed' by republican misdeeds.

    The idea that you are capable of admitting you are wrong or taking responsibility for anything, is as absurd as your daily doses of tripe.

    Now that is solved, can we get bag to the douchebaggery that is Donald Trump, stating McCain 'Is not a war hero." ?  

    It must really suck to support a guy, excuse me, I mean multiple people that rip on Veterans, being that you are a Veteran.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:12:32 PM EST
    Uh, no. Kerry had drawn long and loud condemnation for what he had done while he was doing it as well as for what many thought was a fake wound and a way home. The Swift Boaters were merely repeating the charges.

    "Many" - heh.  No.  Repeating scurrilous, baseless LIES simply because their are some ignorant wingnuts repeating them is still LYING.

    It's not a difficult concept.  But you like the lies, so you defend those doing it.  And the Swifties made up all kinds of new LIES to add to the lies told by the Purple Bandaid Brigade cowards.

    Parent

    What many thought was a fake wound (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:43:50 AM EST
    Which is why you criticized him for coming out against the Vietnam War.

    Wiki Link.

    an SBVT television ad, Dr. Lewis Letson asserted, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury," but did not specify the alleged lie; he subsequently gave varied accounts of his purported interaction with Kerry.[25][26][27][28] Kerry's medical records list a medic, J. C. Carreon, as the "person administering treatment" for this wound. Dr. Letson's name does not appear on the record, but Letson claimed it was common for medics to sign the paperwork even though Letson would treat the patient. That claim cannot be verified as Carreon died in 1992. In addition, Letson claimed he was given information by way of Kerry's crewmen who accompanied him to the clinic,[27] but neither Zaladonis nor Runyon accompanied Kerry, nor has any crewman who was on the nearby Swift Boat supported this claim.

    And yes, you're correct, let's wear them in honor of G. W. Bush, the guy who was renominates for President at that convention.

    Oh, and don't bother to ask me to quit making things up this time around like you did for DFH a while back.

    Parent

    You are making things up (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:01:48 PM EST
    I never criticized Kerry for his service in Vietnam. In fact I wrote, in this blog, that I honored his service.

    I have never followed Dr Letson's claims and have no knowledge as to their accuracy. Some of the comments by his crew members were compelling but I have commented that during life threatening events things slow down but are always confusing.

    I criticized him for his protests after he came home. Such things as throwing his medals over the fence around the WH and joining protest groups that had fake veterans, etc. Kerry's actions were traitorous in the extreme and cost American lives.

    He just did it again with Iran.

    And as I noted there is no doubt he lied about being in Cambodia.

    Bush did his service in TANG. Thousands of others did the same. He also was a pilot of the F-102 which killed so many pilots it was known as the Widow Maker.

    I believe you were old enough to join the NG. Did you??

    Parent

    For the record, we do know where ... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:55:39 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "And as I noted there is no doubt [John Kerry] lied about being in Cambodia. Bush did his service in TANG. Thousands of others did the same. He also was a pilot of the F-102 which killed so many pilots it was known as the Widow Maker."

    ... John Kerry was, because he has the official military commendations to prove it. While you've undoubtedly convinced yourself of his untruthfulness for whatever your reasons, your assertions to that effect are completely unsubstantiated and aren't worth the expense of Jeralyn's bandwidth to repeatedly post them.

    While Kerry wasn't "officially" in Cambodia because that country had declared its neutrality in the Vietnam War and our forces were technically not supposed to be there, he was serving in the Mekong Delta region along the border and likely crossed over in hot pursuit of Viet Cong or NVA during a mission or two. That border was not well marked at all.

    So did my father, who also served in the Mekong Delta region in 1963-64 as a MACV advisor to South Vietnamese marines. I know that because he said so in his letters to my mother, which she still has in her possession. He was never officially in Cambodia, but he was there. That's just the way it was back in those days, not unlike how President Nixon could never officially admit to ordering the bombing of Cambodia, even though he did.

    Also for the record, Lt. George W. Bush failed to show for his ANG flight physical, and for that he was subsequently grounded by his commanding officer and never flew again. Then he just sorta / kinda disappeared for about a year, after requesting a transfer to an Alabama ANG unit. There's no documentation that he ever showed up, and nobody in that Alabama unit ever remembered either seeing him or serving with him.

    And that's perhaps the most curious thing about Bush's claims otherwise, because surely at least one of those Alabama pilots and commanders would have remembered serving with a guy who later went on to become both the governor of Texas and president of the United States. But they don't remember him at all, which lends credence to the never-disproven notion that Bush went AWOL.

    Joe Hagan, who wrote the Texas Monthly story to which I linked above, concluded from the evidence that Bush was most likely in Houston at the time, doing penance at a local nonprofit per his father's demand, after going on a real bender and endangering his then-teenaged brother Marvin as a result of driving drunk.

    And given past related discussions here at TL, Jim, you were also rather vague about what YOU were doing during the Vietnam War -- so yeah, you probably don't want to make this personal in your interaction with others on the subject. You have neither the credentials nor the bona fides to do so.

    Adios.

    Parent

    It never fails to amaze me (2.00 / 1) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 03:34:39 PM EST
    that your dad, mom, and grandmother have all had so many direct and personal experiences that coincide so perfectly with fairly major US historical events and/or the topics that are discussed here on TL.

    So did my father, who also served in the Mekong Delta region in 1963-64 as a MACV advisor to South Vietnamese marines. I know that because he said so in his letters to my mother, which she still has in her possession. He was never officially in Cambodia, but he was there.


    Parent
    SUO... (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    ...while I agree that the coincidences are remarkable, Donald has written about his father serving any dying in Vietnam, multiple times.

    I think if you are going to call someone out on something so profound, you should have a little more proof than coincidence.  Especially in a thread that is mostly about some gasbag calling out a Veteran's/POW's service.

    Parent

    Fwiw, in case it's still not clear, (none / 0) (#163)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:29:53 AM EST
    nothing I wrote in any way questions Don's dad.

    What is questioned is Don's "remarkable coincidence" claim.

    That's why I quoted it in my comment.

    Parent

    And that amazes you - why, exactly? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    Because yours were too busy sitting at home and watching TV, while my father was in Vietnam and was killed?

    Grow up.

    Parent

    Nobody is questioning your father. (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    But you knew that.

    Parent
    Look, if you want to be ... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:56:59 PM EST
    ... a royal A-hole about it, then you know what, I really can't stop you and I actually feel sorry for you.

    There was absolutely nothing which compelled you to make that uncalled for and nasty personal remark, other than your own hostile temperament and your desire to provoke. I certainly don't single you out in these threads to offer those sorts of comments about you or your family. I don't think anyone else does so, either. That you continually do so to me is really a direct reflection upon your own insecurity and immaturity, and not upon anyone else.

    Again, grow up. Because the next time it happens, I'll simply complain directly to the host and let her deal with you as she sees fit.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    about their family.

    Just you.

    Parent

    Sarcastic unnamed one (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Palli on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:59:46 PM EST
    I, for one, appreciate hearing & sharing the efforts of anyone's elders.

    What you imply is disingenuous unveiled ill will. I doubt the efficacy of any suggestion that you owe Donald an apology, so I won't suggest you do so.

    Certainly, you should feel free to share your family's experiences here anytime it is appropriate.

    Parent

    I am a descendant (none / 0) (#121)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 06:25:19 AM EST
    of this gentleman here, who, as you can see had his own relationship with history.  According to family tradition, he was known to his Chinese servants as "The thunder"' because of his short temper.

    Parent
    Quite a Descendant (none / 0) (#173)
    by Palli on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:34:11 PM EST
    and a great online archive.

    Parent
    used word wrong, but you know what I mean, Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Palli on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:36:40 PM EST
    used word wrong, but you know what I mean, Thanks (none / 0) (#177)
    by Palli on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:36:55 PM EST
    Donald, from the Washington Post (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:16:47 PM EST
    ...That is Kerry's apparently fabricated claim that he fought in Cambodia.

    It is an assertion he made first, insofar as the written record reveals, in 1979 in a letter to the Boston Herald. Since then he has repeated it on at least eight occasions...

    Then he offered this devastating riposte:

    "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

    However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was faulty.

    Link

    I will not comment on your father's activities as they have nothing to do with Kerry.

    In the spring of '72 Bush had decided that he would not extend his enlistment. This meant that he would not receive training on the F102's replacement and that his flight time would be drastically reduced and given to those who had extended and was waiting training. IOW, the government isn't interested in spending money on people who aren't gonna be around. And BION, you don't just walk up, hop in a plane and fly off into the wild blue yonder. So Bush skipped the physical and the quals. So what?? He could have taken the physical and the quals at anytime and been back in. His squadron commander knew he wasn't flying and had no problem with it. He did, as regulations required, pull Bush's wings.

    But even there the Left tried to make things up.

    Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time.

    And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

    Link

    Now we all know how that turned out.

    So all you are doing is trying to make the argument about Bush and not Kerry. Guess what. We don't have to speculate as you do about Bush.

    Bush is gone and Kerry just surrendered to Iran.

    Which was neither unexpected or surprising.

    And you are right. I have never commented anything about my 10 years in Naval Aviation beyond just that. I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    And I do so because I do not consider you, and many others like you, worthy of friendship. Speaking bluntly, I do not care what you believe.

    Parent

    Ya know (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 04:49:55 PM EST
      I believe we are drifting far afield. What does Kerry's veracity, or lack thereof, concerning his service  have to do with what a tool Trump is?

     

    Parent

    Well, it's an open thread, and ... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:21:50 PM EST
    ... we can talk about whatever we want to talk about. Personally, I find talking about Donald Trump to be somewhat boring, if only because what he's doing is fairly predictable. I'm no more fascinated by him and his campaign, than I am with the Tea Party. They just are who they are, and nothing more.

    But for purposes of demonstrating the relevance of our "drifting" sub-thread, I'd note that Trump is a monster of the GOP's own creation, and one which is wholly in line with that party's dubious history over the last 50 years, of which "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" is as much a part as the Watergate break-in / cover-up or the Iran-Contra affair, &etc.

    Thus, the Republican establishment's outrage over Trump's admittedly insulting remarks about John McCain is at once obviously self-serving, selective and hypocritical. Even CNN's generally obtuse Jake Tapper felt compelled to call them out on it yesterday.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I'm not talking about ... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:38:15 PM EST
    Dan Rather's 2004 "60 Minutes" report. But let's assume for the moment and the sake of argument that these several documents were in fact forgeries. After all, they were photocopies of original documents and not the originals themselves and further, their source was former TX Air Guardsman Bill Burkett, who was rather shifty about how they first came to be in his possession. That is a fact which Joe Hagan openly notes in his May 2012 Texas Monthly exposé about the Bush TANG story, "Truth or Consequences."

    None of that accounts for the fact that there are still no records which verify George W. Bush's service with the Alabama ANG unit to which he was assigned, nor are there any credible eyewitnesses who can vouch for his presence on that Montgomery base, from fellow pilots to the base commander himself. From "Truth or Consequences":

    "No paper records exist in the National Guard archives in Texas or Alabama that corroborate Bush's service in Montgomery, and the personnel officer in Alabama at the time said it was up to his counterparts in Texas to keep track of Bush. Judging by his military files, they didn't."

    But what those records do show is that despite claiming in his 1999 memoir "A Charge to Keep" that he had flown jets for "several years," Bush had in fact been grounded by his commanders for his failure to appear for his mandatory flight physical.

    At best, Bush was only flying fighter jets for about 20 months at most, and not for the several years that he claimed. Further, he had actually been downgraded from the F-102 to a T-33 trainer and a flight simulator at the time he lost his active flight status, for reasons now known only to him. (And for purposes of this argument, those reasons are immaterial.)

    Now, failure to undergo a flight physical is actually a very serious offense for a military pilot. In Bush's case, that offense was compounded and made more egregious by the fact that Bush's commanding officer, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian -- the same man whose family members you cited above -- sent an official memo to his pilot on May 4, 1972, ordering him to report to Houston's Ellington Air Force Base for that flight physical, after he had earlier failed to appear of his own volition.

    George W. Bush blew off that memo, too. Killian, in a May 19, 1972 report to his own superiors, then detailed a subsequent conversation he had with the young lieutenant, which further noted his suspicions that "someone upstairs" had been pulling strings on Bush's behalf:

    "[Lt. Bush says] he wants to transfer to Alabama to any unit he can get in to. Says that he is working on another campaign for his dad. We talked about him getting his flight physical situation fixed before his date. Says he will do that in Alabama if he stays in flight status. He has this campaign to do and other things that will follow and may not have the time. I advised him of our investment in him and his commitment. He's been working with staff to come up with options and identified a unit that may accept him. I told him I had to have written acceptance before he would be transferred, but think he's also talking to someone upstairs."

    There are in fact a lot of questions about Bush's "lost year," about which we simply do not know, and for which he's never answered at all to anyone's real satisfaction. And this includes to members of his own campaign, hence their apparent desperation to change the subject every time the story of Bush's TANG service reared its ugly head.

    For example, as I stated above, a pilot's failure to appear for a mandatory flight physical is a serious offense, and military protocols require that such a failure should prompt an official investigation into the matter.

    But in Bush's case, his failure to show was never investigated, even though Killian's own recommendation in Bush's service record was that such an official inquiry should be opened. It was just one of several instances in which Bush's commanders apparently chose to look the other way regarding his behavior, or were persuaded to do so by their own superiors. It's therefore an entirely fair question to ask why there was no follow-through on their part, as there likely would have been for any other TANG fighter pilot not named George W. Bush.

    Further, Joe Hagan was able to determine that Bush had actually returned to Houston in November 1972, at the conclusion of that AL gubernatorial campaign he was supposedly working on. However, he did not report back to his commander at Ellington AFB until May 1973.

    And again per Hagan, the record shows that Lt. Col. Killian signed off on a May 2, 1973 report which clearly states that Bush hadn't been seen for nearly an entire year: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report ... . He had cleared [departed] this base on 15 May 1972."

    Now, all this is water under the bridge at this point. The veracity of John Kerry's various accusers, whom you've cited here in this thread, has generally wilted as their tales received further close scrutiny, which is understandable since not a single one of them ever actually served either with Kerry or under him in Vietnam.

    At best, what the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" offered for our consideration in the summer and fall of 2004 was nothing more than second- and third-hand hearsay. At worst, it was likely a carefully crafted and deliberate political hit / con job, one which obviously worked because here we are, more than a decade later, and you're still citing them as though they're still credible sources of information. In fact, they are not.

    But as I noted earlier, while we do know from the actual evidence where John Kerry was during his period in question, we quite honestly still don't know where George W. Bush was during his own period in question, thanks in no small part to all the smoke that was blown by his campaign and the GOP on his behalf. And Joe Hagan's painstakingly detailed account of the Bush TANG story is likely the closest we'll ever get to the truth of that particular matter.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    This USA today (2.00 / 2) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:08:57 PM EST
    article gives the names of 3 people who remember him there. Two were squadron mates and one was an Air Force dentist.

    Of course the realty is:

    The 187th had about 800 members in 1972.

    Wayne Rambo, a first lieutenant with the 187th in 1972, echoed Tyrus' statements: "There's no way I could tell you if he was there, and there's no way that I could tell you that he wasn't there," Rambo said.

    Bush was a very small tadpole in a big pound.

    Outside of two friends, one of who was killed in a crash, I doubt that anyone would remember that I was in my first squadron.

    Plus, the WH produced pay records.

    And Mrs. Curtis dated him.

    Link

    And no, it is not a serious offense for a pilot to not get flight physical. All that happens is that he looses his flight status. And his superior would have known about that.

    But keep on beating the dead horse and talking about things you do not understand. It does define you so well.

    And we do know were Kerry was. And it was Cambodia.

    And I wonder how of the CBS lie Hagan used.

    Parent

    The White House produced no such thing. (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 05:12:47 AM EST
    Bush promised Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press that he would release his entire military personnel file, but he never did. And again, there are records in the National Guard archives in either Texas or Alabama that corroborate Bush's service in Montgomery. From Hagan's article in Texas Monthly:

    "Under pressure in 2004 to explain the gap, the White House produced as evidence of Bush's service a military dental exam record from January 6, 1973 -- in Montgomery, not Houston. It also released a computerized summary of his pay records from the period (discovered in a Denver repository after the Bush campaign had previously declared them lost in a fire), and the dates showed that Bush was paid for attending drills in Alabama in January and again in April of 1973."

    Now, look at those dates. This was at the exact same time that Bush was "volunteering" per his father's demand at PULL (Professionals United Leadership League), a nonprofit poverty program for youths in Houston's Third Ward, for which his father was an ex oficio member of its board of directors.

    So, if we are to believe the story the Bush White House was peddling in 2004, while Bush was working for PULL in Houston between January and May 1973, he was also pulling Guard duty six hundred miles away in Montgomery, AL.

    But why would he do that, given that his home base, Ellington AFB, was right across town in Houston? Further, those two pay records don't at all correspond with the information provided by Bush in either his official memoir or his campaign biography.

    Further, the fact that Alabama's 187th Squadron had 800 men is immaterial, for the simple reason that only a relative handful of them were pilots and officers, and as a lieutenant, Bush would not have been fraternizing with the noncoms and enlisted men. As I said, none of those officers and pilots remember serving with him, which they certainly would have if he'd actually been there, particularly since he went on to become a U.S. president.

    As I said, none of this really matters at this point, because George W. Bush is long since gone from public office. Hagan's portrait of Bush is that of a young man of wealth and privilege who was clearly used to doing his own thing, and really only respected those in authority who could do things for him.

    Further, it must be noted that he was not alone in that regard, for there were other sons of privilege who also rode out the Vietnam War in TANG'S "Champagne Unit at Ellington AFB, Republicans and Democrats alike. These young men were the products of their upbringing, and could hardly be expected to know any better.

    If anyone is to blame here for what happened, it's those officers and political appointees who were running TANG, and who willingly curried favor with the well-connected parents of these men by looking the other way at dubious behavior and granting undue favors. In many respects, they enabled when they should have commanded.

    As far as your wondering "how [much] of the CBS lie Hagan used," I would suggest that you read the article, because he might surprise you. Hagan was actually quite critical of Dan Rather's CBS team for rushing to get their story on the air without first vetting the veracity of their key source Bill Burkett, who obviously had an axe to grind -- not with Bush himself necessarily, but with the Texas Air National Guard in general.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Correction: (none / 0) (#118)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 05:19:27 AM EST
    The second sentence of the first paragraph should actually read as follows:

    "And again, there are NO records in the National Guard archives in either Texas or Alabama that corroborate Bush's service in Montgomery."

    My bad.

    Parent

    So all those people lied??? (1.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:16:14 AM EST
    My,my.... What a conspiracy you claim existed.

    But we do know this. Bush served.

    You did not.

    Parent

    What "all those people"? (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:00:28 PM EST
    By your count, there were only three. One of them, the officer Calhoun, was a Bush supporter who was tripped up in a subsequent interview by listing dates that he supposedly saw Bush on base, which were actually well in advance of Bush's May 1972 transfer. As for the other two, let's just say that they were probably mistaken, not unlike those who claim to have encountered Bigfoot in the wild. Even the two women whom Bush dated while working on that '72 Alabama campaign admitted that they never saw him in uniform.

    Bush was in Alabama from May to November of that year, and apparently returned to Houston after the election. He just never reported for duty with the 187th in Montgomery. The only hints of him having spent any time there are a dental exam record and two pay records from January and April of 1973, when he was already back in Houston and working at PULL. How could he be in two places 600 miles from one another at once? And why would he go to Alabama for Guard duty, particularly when his own home base was right across town in Houston?

    And yeah, there's really no reason to make things personal. Whether or not I ever served in the military is completely immaterial to the matter at hand. And given your past exchanges with others here during which you were uncharacteristically vague on the subject of your own "service," I would think that you'd really not want to go there again.

    I don't know why you feel compelled to do that to people here, but it's a sign that you really have nothing else to offer in the argument other than an insult, and it's rather childish. Perhaps a better idea would be to cease making such sweeping and unsubstantiated assertions which you otherwise can't support, except through repeated attempts at bluster and intimidation.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Quit trying to make it personal (none / 0) (#127)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:17:14 AM EST
    Heh - An opinion piece from (none / 0) (#98)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:22:18 PM EST
    ... an AEI wingnut.

    Jim's trying to be funny.

    Parent

    This isn't opinion (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:44:04 PM EST
    However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was faulty
    .

    Are you claiming that the blog is telling a lie??

    Parent

    It IS an opinion piece (none / 0) (#123)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 07:48:36 AM EST
    .... from an AEI wingnut, no less.  Kerry's spokesman wasn't talking about whether Kerry went into Cambodia, but simply whether it was on Christmas or shortly thereafter:

    Michael Meehan, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, responded to SBVT's charges with a statement that Kerry was referring to a period when Nixon had been president-elect and before he was inaugurated. Meehan went on to state that Kerry had been "deep in enemy waters" between Vietnam and Cambodia and that his boat came under fire at the Cambodian border. Meehan also said that Kerry did covertly cross over into Cambodia to drop off special operations forces on a later occasion, but that there was no paperwork for such missions and he could not supply dates
    .

    But I understand why you would want to distract from the subject of Trump's disgusting remarks as you try to defend his LIES now.

    Trump: I called McCain a 'hero' four times - Mostly False

    Good luck with that.

    Parent

    So the spokesman didn't say that (2.00 / 1) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:17:58 AM EST
    Is that your claim??

    Look, Kerry had a Brian Williams moment.

    Parent

    I really think you've reached blog clogging (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:21:29 AM EST
    Here Jim.  I don't know whether to fall asleep or develop a headache trying to read this unrelated to anything currently relevant crapola.

    Parent
    Reading (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:55:40 AM EST
    Not your strong suit?

    Not a "lie" at all.  But I understand how Trump and his defenders wouldn't understand how memories from combat might be imprecise.  They've only read about it and cheered from their armchairs while others fought.

    Parent

    I wasn't old enough (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:25:24 PM EST
    ... but I heard the Champagne Unit was quite dangerous, which explains why so many people with connections were trying to get into it rather than volunteer for active duty.

    Plus, ... the champagne in Texas wasn't even French.

    Parent

    Quit trying to make it personal, Jim. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:25:12 PM EST
    Or I will e-mail Jeralyn about this comment.

    Parent
    And I was bring sarcastic (none / 0) (#41)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:35:23 PM EST
    It's funny how you raise doubts about others when confronted with the evidence that thosewho raise doubts about Kerry's patriotism re his service in Vietnsm, might not be very credible either.

    But, continue to tell us how much you value free speech, as long as it's speech you agree with.


    Parent

    Mordiggian, feel free to do what you want (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:47:50 PM EST
    You said something that was not accurate.

    What many thought was a fake wound (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:43:50 AM CST
    Which is why you criticized him for coming out against the Vietnam War.

    And note what I wrote:

    I have never followed Dr Letson's claims and have no knowledge as to their accuracy. Some of the comments by his crew members were compelling but I have commented that during life threatening events things slow down but are always confusing.


    Parent
    Wash your hands of the whole thing (none / 0) (#82)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:49:55 PM EST
    if you like.

    Parent
    re Greenland ice melting (none / 0) (#11)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:20:23 AM EST
    cbs has a news article about the ice of Greenlake melting . . .

    The annual "State of the Climate" report released Thursday said 2014 was the warmest year on record going back 135 years.

    Temperatures continued to rise, and glaciers kept shrinking.

    The impact has been dramatic in Greenland, the huge ice-covered island between the North Atlantic and Arctic oceans.

    *

    Yes, perhaps it is just geothermal flukes . . .

    The scientists say that ocean levels have risen by 4 to 8 inches and about 40% of that rise is the result of glaciers on Greenland melting . . .  

    I can't imagine why the geothermal vents somehow just are causing all this ice to melt in various places . . . Antartica . . . Greenland . . . The alps . . .

    "It's quite normal that glaciers are gaining or losing mass," Fischer said. What's not normal, say climatologists, is how fast it's happening today.

    Yes, the strange geothermal heat vents or currents somehow are causing glaciers all over the place to melt . . . It is like they have almost no preference in terms of where!

    You are making things up (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:48:33 AM EST
    No one is saying that geothermal activity is occurring anyplace besides the west sector of Antarctica. But I did say, and say again, that the other ice pack around Antarctica is increasing.

    And that the Artic sea ice is about the same as it was 20 years ago and that the polar bears are thriving. Speaking of bears, I wonder if all the people who find them so warm and cuddly would feel the same way after they watch them eat a seal alive.

    As for Greenland we can hope that it warms to the point that, as it was during the Medieval Warming Period, food can grow there. Given the earth's population boom we can use all we can get.

    But I love this from your link.

    The glaciers may not feel better, but the resort owners certainly do.

    Everything is about feeling.

    Parent

    making things up (none / 0) (#26)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:13:22 AM EST
    True or False test:

    1. 2014 was the warmest year on record, speaking of global temperatures;

    2. The ocean water level has been rising and has risen by 4 to 8 inches;

    3. CBSnews is part of some conspiracy;

    4. The ocean water level being higher than in years past is most likely the result of glaciers in various parts of the world having disappeared completely or being melting . . .

    5. zaitz is an idiot who makes things up;


    Parent
    It's sickening the way (none / 0) (#27)
    by sj on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:16:46 AM EST
    you accuse people of "making things up". That's your way of calling people a liar without getting Jeralyn on your case.

    Parent
    Well, in defense of (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:08:28 PM EST
    Well,

    in his defense, it does appear to be true that ice surrounding Antartica overall is holding steady or increasing . . . and so . . .

    when I teasingly wrote that the geothermal vents are causing ice everywhere to be melting  . . .

    that could be considered an exaggeration for effect  . . .

    or a made up thing . . . since the Alps, Greenland and one side or portion of Antartica is not just everywhere . . .  it is only a significant fraction of everywhere, especially if it is responsible for 40% of the rise in sea level . . .

    Parent

    well . . . (none / 0) (#12)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:24:07 AM EST
    Well, it may be harder for some of us to vote for Trump now . . .

    The "Conspiracy" and National Geo . . . (none / 0) (#16)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:42:44 AM EST
    A number of years ago I read a variety of literature published or promoted by the JBS, or John Birch Society, for those of you not in the know.  Anyway, one interesting thing we learn is that there is or was a grand master conspiracy causing or tending to cause a series of anti-American disasters and catastrophes.

    I think I was watching the Rachel Maddow show a few months ago and she had this little segment about "the New American" not admitting when they were (or had been) wrong about something . . .

    Anyway, I see here that there are some climate change believers over at National Geographic, publishing articles on various areas affected, allegedly, by "climate change" or "global warming."  Ha!

    Well, the truth is obviously, in case you did not know, that some member of the Conspiracy, with some money, has in some way bought control of NatGeo or influence on some editors or reporters . . .

    Good grief (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 10:50:43 AM EST
    National Geo has been a believer forever.

    You are late to the party.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:02:56 AM EST
    what authority would you believe? Is there any scientific, political or heck even religious organization that could cast a shadow of doubt on denialism? Is there any set of facts that you might make you reconsider or you absolutely as closed minded as you appear?

    Parent
    well, since (none / 0) (#28)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:21:14 AM EST
    Since Satan is against the economic power of America

    and since curbing global warming might reduce the economic growth or power of America

    then,

    any news or information or evidence in favor of global warming would need to come from a source not in league with Satan . . .

    Do you have any like that?

    Parent

    I started out, years ago (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:56:34 PM EST
    believing. Then, as times passed and the predictions started missing and the claims got more outrageous and I retired and had more time to read and study it became obvious that this was a con game designed to get certain people money and power.

    Parent
    Holy sheet (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:28:47 PM EST
    Jim, you just came up with the next Breitbart/O'Keefe type blockbuster expose. Them dumb money grubbing climatolgists should be easy prey for any intrepid reporter. You know, buy the Nasa boys a couple of drinks and they will be willing to add a tenth of a degree to the readings in Katmandu....for the right price.

    Parent
    You have it half right (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:26:20 AM EST
    'they will be willing to add a tenth of a degree to the readings in Katmandu...

    to be sure they get part of that $21.4 billion that the feds will spend next year.

    Is the real deal.


    Parent

    outrageous claims . . . (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 09:22:17 PM EST
    Is it an outrageous claim that:

    1) Seattle in June has just broken
    many years of high temperature records by about 3 degrees;

    1. the ocean level is rising;

    2. a lot of ice on Greenland has been melting;

    3. global mean temperatures have increased in the last 100 years;

    4. global mean temperatures have increased in the last 30 years;

    5. scientists in the Alps believe that the loss of glaciers is happening at an unusually fast pace;

    6. 1250 square miles of ice of the West Antartica ice sheet fell into the sea and became water about ten years ago, in the space of 35 days . . .

    7. the east antartica ice sheet is about the same size as previously;

    8. "sea ice" related to Antartica has increased, but it melts away each year;

    9. Cal and Washington are experiencing what they consider to be serious droughts;


    Parent
    Zait (none / 0) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:36:04 PM EST
    Sounds liked a beautiful June. Kinda makes up for those "green tomato summers" I experienced in the 80's. BTW - Have you ever heard of El Nino.

    And the outrageous claims had to do with all the wild claims and forecasts that have never came true.

    Not in 20 years.

    This chart makes my point.

    We know what is causing the west Antarctica melt..but we won't admit what's causing the increase in other sectors.

    The only phenom that I know that can be correlated to climate change is sun spots.

    And they say we're headed for cooling."

    So have a nice day. I gotta say I enjoyed Seattle but blind ambition and more money drove me to Denver and more harsher climes....but a much better football team. Go down to Starbucks and have a cup for me.  


    Parent

    Zait (none / 0) (#175)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:36:04 PM EST
    Sounds liked a beautiful June. Kinda makes up for those "green tomato summers" I experienced in the 80's. BTW - Have you ever heard of El Nino.

    And the outrageous claims had to do with all the wild claims and forecasts that have never came true.

    Not in 20 years.

    This chart makes my point.

    We know what is causing the west Antarctica melt..but we won't admit what's causing the increase in other sectors.

    The only phenom that I know that can be correlated to climate change is sun spots.

    And they say we're headed for cooling."

    So have a nice day. I gotta say I enjoyed Seattle but blind ambition and more money drove me to Denver and more harsher climes....but a much better football team. Go down to Starbucks and have a cup for me.  


    Parent

    found something here . . . (none / 0) (#23)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 11:02:26 AM EST
    Here is an interesting random blurb by one of those media cranks on TV who claims that the JBS was really trying to have Warren impeached because of Brown v Board of Education . . .

    I only mention a few of these things, because, a few days ago, when discussing global warming, one fellow poster here at talkleft sent me on a link to an article in The New American . . . a group we all know and respect as a chief and trusted source in all matters of science, especially biology, botany and things warming or cooling . . .

    Parent

    The British Open (none / 0) (#33)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:05:02 PM EST
    may go right to the wire for Jordan Spieth as he chases his 3rd major this year. He's one shot off the lead with 3 holes to play.

    This Spieth kid... (none / 0) (#39)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    could end up being a decent player one day.

    Parent
    As for now... (none / 0) (#67)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:57:05 PM EST
    Zach Johnson wins his second career major title in a four hole, three way play off.  Jordan Spieth finished bogey/par to end-up one shot out of the play-off.  

    Parent
    The UN Security Council (none / 0) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 12:47:56 PM EST
    unanimously approved the agreement to curb Iran's nuclear program.  (the Security Council consists of five permanent members, China, France, Russia, UK, and US, and 10 non-permanent members elected to two-years terms by the General Assembly).

    While a momentous vote, it will likely fuel the restless bombing syndrome of Republicans and other war mongers, who see only risks to diplomacy and no risks to war.  If the UN is for it, the wingers will be against it, because the UN.  Dangerous, if not unhinged men, like John Bolton, will rant all the more--not enough that President Obama is for it, but now, the UN.  

    I Am Waiting... (none / 0) (#56)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 01:42:44 PM EST
    ...for someone to explain why doing nothing is better.

    Not why Iran will cheat, why the UN blows, or why Obama hates America  I just want someone to explain why doing nothing is better than this deal.

    I think the answer is obvious.

    Parent

    Mick Fanning Attacked by Shark... (none / 0) (#62)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 02:24:21 PM EST
    ...on live TV during a J-Bay Open in South Africa.  LINK

    No one was injured, physically, but its pretty scary to watch it happen, especially when the wave blocks the view.

    The World Surf League has cancelled the rest of the event.


    Given the size of the shark's dorsal fin ... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 03:05:27 PM EST
    ... in photos of the incident, that was one huge fish. Fanning was very lucky.

    When we were in Cape Town, we saw lookouts posted on the hills above the beaches, whose sole job was to watch for large sharks, and then radio warnings down to lifeguards if any were spotted in the vicinity.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    They Said Today... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:46:23 AM EST
    ...it was a Great White Shark.

    Shark size doesn't matter when it's just gnawed off your leg and coming back for the other one.

    Funniest comment ever:

    Asked what he would say if he encountered the shark again, Fanning joked he would say, "Thanks for not eating me!"

    Indeed.

    Parent

    South African waters are ... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:40:30 PM EST
    ... well known as a prime habitat for great white sharks, along with the waters off California and Australia. Not surprising, really, since that's also a prime seal habitat, as well.

    While we do have occasional confirmed sightings of great whites in Hawaiian waters, they appear to be transients and not residents. Tagged great whites have been tracked while migrating across the Pacific between the California coast and Hawaii. Researchers surmise that such individuals might be following large schools of bluefin and yellowfin tuna.

    The most common big sharks we have in our waters are tigers, makos and great hammerheads. Tiger sharks in particular can grow to enormous sizes; the largest one I ever saw personally was an 18-foot fish which had been caught by a game fisherman off west Oahu and was hoisted for display at Keehi Lagoon harbor in Honolulu. Even in death, it looked intimidating.

    Since 2012, we've had a marked increase in tiger shark attacks upon humans off Maui beaches, sixteen in all, including one near Wailea in late April which proved fatal. There have been two other attacks off Kauai this year as well; one took a huge chunk out of a surfer's board (he was obviously shaken, but otherwise uninjured), from which it was estimated that the tiger was probably 14 feet in length. Researchers don't know why this spike is occurring.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 05:44:47 PM EST
    hateful little conservative twerp calls a transgendered woman "sir" and she tells him to stop or he will go home in an ambulance.

    LINK

    Following the show's taping, Shapiro alleged that Tur said, "I'll see you in the parking lot," and CNN security reportedly escorted the commentator to his vehicle.
    More, according to Shapiro's colleagues at Breitbart:

    "Just because the left has designated someone a member of the victim class does not mean that that person gets to infringe the rights of others," [Shapiro] said of his report. "Until the left learns that, their aggression will not stop." Shapiro also said that he had spoken with a detective at LAPD, and that he would be pursuing any possibility of charges regarding alleged criminal threats.



    I have not yet figured out (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Peter G on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:04:09 PM EST
    how the insistence of one person or group of people to have their basic rights (and/or dignity) respected infringes the "rights" of other people who don't like them.

    Parent
    Saw some family over the weekend... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:37:16 PM EST
    take it from me - do not try to understand or reason with those who either can't or won't listen to reason. The attitude is that people merely trying to be themselves are 'throwing it my face'...and 'what if people have a deep feeling they should be child molesters..should we all accept that too?'  I made the obvious arguments but i am not sure they sunk in.

    Parent
    That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear that. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 08:31:21 PM EST
    I have some family members who are like that, too, as I'd imagine most of us do. There are those who will always be uncomfortable with the concept of social evolution and are -- for the immediate moment, anyway -- impervious to reason.

    It doesn't matter if that change involves recognition of the inherent civil rights of the LGBT community, the acceptance of interracial personal relationships including marriage, equal pay for equal work, &etc. They don't like it, it's the end of the world as they know it, and they're not going to take it any more.

    Fortunately for the sake of social progress, history also tells us that many such people can and will change their minds on such contentious issues over time, as they get used to the changes and come to realize that all their worries were really for naught. Those who won't evolve in their thinking, well, they tend to die off in rather significant numbers over the succeeding generations.

    Thus, what was totally and unalterably unacceptable to so many of our forebears 100+ years ago, whether it was allowing women to vote or colored folk to drink from the same water fountain as white people, is now of no lasting consequence to us in the present.

    Change may not often happen as quickly as we would otherwise desire, but as Martin Luther King, Jr. once said, while the arc of the universe is long, it bends toward justice. Or, as my favorite Persian proverb reads, "Dogs bark, and the caravan passes."

    As for myself, I'll give my prickly relatives the time and space necessary to come to that conclusion themselves, and won't press the matter. While I'll tell them what I think when asked, I'll also say that we'll have to agree to disagree and let it go at that.

    Then, I'll trust in time to work its magic. It was a pretty big deal for me to see my aunt, a rock-ribbed Republican for nearly 60 years, set her doubts and prejudices about non-white politicians aside to vote for Barack Obama in 2008, and again in 2012.

    And now, she says that she's very glad that she did vote for him. Further, once she shed her personal social baggage, she became very open to other ideas as well, such as marriage equality for LGBT people. She even admitted that after due consideration, she voted against Proposition 8! To me anyway, that represents significant progress, because it's something which I could not have imagined her doing 20 or 30 years ago.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thanks Donald..despite what it might seem (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 12:53:41 PM EST
    I really do not like conflict in my personal life - even barely enter into a fray on this blog. It really bothers me when someone I truly love and otherwise respect talks like a mindless zombie that can't step into someone else's shoes for a minute. I think Fox is so harmful to otherwise decent people - just treating them like idiots, and turning them into idiots.


    Parent
    Well, I'd suggest that ... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:30:41 PM EST
    ... if you really wish to figure that out, you would first need to channel your inner child -- and then allow that inner child to behave like a spoiled 11-year-old brat who has no personal boundaries, and has never learned the meaning of the word "no."

    ;-D

    Parent

    Sorry, not going to work (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Peter G on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:40:35 PM EST
    I was nerdy, goody-two-shoes as a kid, even when I was 11, I think. And raised in a family where the highest moral values taught daily by my parents were honesty, education and kindness/respect.

    Parent
    After Today's ABC/Washington Post Poll (none / 0) (#85)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:02:29 PM EST
    The RCP Averages puts a new leader in the GOP Clubhouse for the 2016 nomination.

    Trump is now trouncing the competition.

    Up 10 (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:32:37 PM EST
    sonce the last poll

    Parent
    THE donALD!!! (none / 0) (#91)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:46:28 PM EST
    At 24%!!!

    Parent
    Supposedly (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 06:51:15 PM EST
    that poll was mostly done before the McCain kerfuffel.  It will be interesting to see if it changes his numbers one way or another in the next one.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:05:28 PM EST
    even if it takes a five points off it still puts him a good bit out in front of Jeb. How do you spell a bad investment from family connections? J-E-B.

    Parent
    Most (none / 0) (#99)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:22:59 PM EST
    of the polling was done before this latest Trumpet blast. Conventional wisdom would say he loses 5-10 by the next poll, however conventional can hardly describe the current GOP and wisdom has not been seen in that  locale since the last millennium.

    I believe Walker stands to gain the  lions share of the points that Trump  does shed with Christie and Cruz picking up the scraps.

    Sorry Jeb! you get nothing and you will certainly go into the first debate in third place probably still flat-lined in the polls.


    Parent

    Trump gets fact checked (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:29:19 PM EST
    No, Donald - you were NOT calling him a war hero.

    But the best part is watching the wingers who hate McCain being forced to defend Donald's silly claim.

    Second best (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:17:08 AM EST
    part is watching Democrats who loathe McCain, who is an unbridled warmonger in my opinion, spring to embrace the war hero designation with which he has ridden to glory.

    I refer to what Donald (from Hawaii) wrote in Friday's open thread on this subject:

    ...in my personal opinion, the word "hero" and its derivatives have become so overused in reference to those who are otherwise simply doing their duty, that their meaning has become trivialized almost to the point of inconsequentiality.

    Complete post by Donald here.

    Parent

    Is surviving over 5 years in a (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:11:36 AM EST
    POW camp, and being subjected to torture, "heroic?"

    Or merely "courageous?"  Or if not "heroic" or "courageous," then what?  

    Is someone dubbed a hero then expected to live the rest of his life heroically?  Or is he allowed to just be human, a mere mortal with flaws that may or may not be acceptable to us?

    I don't know.  I know - or think I know - one thing: Donald Trump, for all his bombast and bloviation, would probably not last 5 minutes in the conditions McCain endured for 5 years.  That he seems to have no respect for that says something - and not a good thing - about Trump's character.

    As for the hypocrisy being exhibited across the GOP spectrum, did anyone really expect anything different?

    Parent

    Hero. (none / 0) (#181)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 01:19:35 PM EST
    I know - or think I know - one thing: Donald Trump, for all his bombast and bloviation, would probably not last 5 minutes in the conditions McCain endured for 5 years.

    McCain said that his decision not to be released, although he said he considered it, was due to what he called a "Code" -- A code that said essentially that prisoners would be released in the order of their capture.

    Trump, judging from what he has to say about that war, would have had no allegiance to any code - and would probably have found a way to talk and pay his way out of it... and get the captors to invest in his hotel.

    Parent

    I Agree... (none / 0) (#183)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 02:14:58 PM EST
    ...don't much care for his politics, but John McCain is a war hero.  Granted, he gets default hero status not by what he did, but what he had to endure.

    There simply is no word in our language to grant someone who survives the unimaginable toll of being tortured for years while surviving his country, so myself, I am comfortable with calling him a hero.  POW doesn't cut it for me, seems more like a designation that is nondescript.  Being held for a couple days and released is not the same as what McCain endured.

    As for politics, we can never forget that John McCain put Palin on the national stage and tried to put her in second position for US President.

    Heroes, the human kind, can do really stupid S too.  Let's not forget he wanted and received Trump's endorsement in 2008.  Trump used to be King Dingaling in republican politics, all needed to kiss the ring.

    Trump would be the Vietnamese version of an 'Uncle Tom', but fear not, 5 deferments certainly ensured that he would never come close to serving his country.

    Parent

    The larger point is (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 02:34:02 PM EST
    Trump did not just disrespect McCain.  If you listen to what he said he disrespected every person who ever served as a prisoner of war.  

    Parent
    Not Surviving, s/b Serving (none / 0) (#184)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 02:25:14 PM EST
    I don't know what era you come from (none / 0) (#187)
    by sj on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 04:19:29 PM EST
    that POW could possibly describe someone who was "held for a couple days and released". In my view it is exactly the right term. But then I got my understanding of POW camps from reading "King Rat" in the long ago, and from descriptions of POW camps in Viet Nam.

    You can think of him as hero if you want. I think calling him a POW gives him great honor as a survivor of such a place without taking all the stuff sideways.

    But then I have a problem with the word "hero" in general. Calling someone a "hero" creates an attribute of an individual, and my mind set is more in alignment with saying that an act is heroic and leaving the personality out of it.

    Parent

    To McCain's credit (none / 0) (#188)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 04:25:57 PM EST
     by all accounts he declined an offered release (because he was a bigwig's son) unless  POWs held longer than him were also released. That choice resulted in enduring a much longer period of captivity. Whether it's "heroic" or not you have to call that something pretty positive.

     

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#189)
    by sj on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 05:41:18 PM EST
    that is definitely to his credit. It was an heroic act.

    Parent
    With all due respect, ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 20, 2015 at 07:37:22 PM EST
    ... Politifact is only stating the obvious. Now, please pass the popcorn.

    Parent
    Trump also (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 06:13:48 AM EST
    slammed Hillary Clinton:

    "Hillary Clinton was the worst Secretary of State in the history of the United States. There's never been a Secretary of State so bad as Hillary. The world blew up around us. We lost everything, including all relationships. There wasn't one good thing that came out of that administration or her being Secretary of State," Trump told NBC News.

    It was particularly moving to see so many of her former colleagues, including many representatives of the Democratic Party, the current Secretary of State and the President of the United States rush to her defense and clearly outline her accomplishments.

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 06:25:09 AM EST
    the Dems are playing it right. Ignore the troll, let him "blog clog"the Republican side.

    Parent
    Maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:59:54 AM EST
    but when it comes to the hero McCain, the Dems are falling all over themselves to say what a swell guy he is...

    Personally, I don't think that is "playing it right". I think it is playing it stupid.

    Parent

    In addition, (none / 0) (#135)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:02:50 AM EST
    I noticed that no one here, to the best of my knowledge, sprung to Hillary Clinton's defense either.

    Nor have I, for that matter.

    Parent

    First (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:10:37 AM EST
    why would any logical person think "springing" to Hillary's defense from an idiotic blowhard screaming about how she was the worst SOS in history was required?
    Are we putting him in ppj territory, he MUST be responded to or the collective mind of the world will be infected?

    And I will point out again that what he said to Hillary was not different and arguably not as bad as things he has said about every republican candidate.  
    What he said about McCain is in a different category.   If you can't understand that you might want to think about stopping talking about it.

    Parent

    Please Source... (none / 0) (#143)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:27:57 AM EST
    ...the Dems saying John McCain is 'a swell guy' or some version that he is someone we currently like politically.

    Calling him a war hero is not the same thing.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#153)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:21:00 AM EST
    They rightfully ignore Trumps attacks on themselves, the Donald thrives on blowback from his bluster, when he gets none from the Democrats defending their own, he quickly turns back to attacking his own party. The Dems can afford to criticize him for his part in the Republican food fight, essentially stirring the pot, as long as they don't get drawn in to deeply.

    Parent
    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 07:19:34 AM EST
    Condi Rice must be off his radar these days.

    Parent
    Yummy, the Fox News mentality harvest (none / 0) (#124)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:12:17 AM EST
    This is what you get for poking the lizard brain 24/7.

    Catching up on the news this a.m.  CNN discussing Trump and how Conservatives are attempting to now discredit him and how outrageous his John McCain attack is.  The newscaster said, "There are a lot of names for Donald Trump and one of them is front runner :)"

    I feel like half the country is living the movie 'Idiocracy'.

    We all are living it (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:53:08 AM EST
    half are doing it by choice.

    Parent
    He's the "frontrunner" (none / 0) (#145)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:36:13 AM EST
     in an immensely crowded field, 6 months before the first actual contest.

       Do his current polling numbers demonstrate that the Republicans have a huge problem? Absolutely, but they do not indicate he has any chance of being the nominee. 25% of the Republican electorate is almost certainly his high-water mark. With 15, or whatever, other people drawing some support that's enough to make him the  temporary leader.  

        The Republicans can do math. Even if he retains his 25% of the Republican support, that's 25% of about 40%, or 10% of the likely November 2016 electorate. He'd have to quadruple that just to lose in a monumental landslide. Considering, he would be guaranteed to lose every slightly competitive state and likely some that haven't been competitive in several cycles he'd do long term damage in addition to being an obvious down-ticket drag in 2016. Even among Republicans he is the most widely and vehemently opposed candidate by a substantial margin.

       The most likely result to Trumpmania is the early exit of those whose strategies rely on substantial votes from the same element. Santorum, Carson, Huckabee, Paul and Cruz can't afford to be shunted to the shadow.

     Bush, Rubio and Walker might actually enjoy watching Trump overshadow the others on the FAR Right. Trump  also makes it fairly easy to appear sane and reasonable by comparison

       The real problem for Republicans is that he just might mount an independent campaign and for a Party already facing an unfavorable electoral map even the relatively small vote he could draw (in addition to the likelihood he would become even more belligerent in attacking Republicans as well as Democrats) would all but guarantee an easy Democratic victory.  

       

    Parent

    On the contrary (none / 0) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:47:21 AM EST
    Trump's numbers will lead to those other people staying in under the assumption Trump will eventually flame out and his voters are up for grabs.

    Trump's numbers staying high should lead to an extended GOP primary season with a huge field of contenders hanging in the race. That's not exactly the plan Bush had when he signed on hoping to clear the field.

    Your last paragraph however is very accurate and why the higher ups in polling are not attacking Trump very much, knowing he could kill their 2016 chances. The lower echelon is attacking Trump knowing it's the easiest route to making their own headline and moving up in the polls with free media attention(e.g. Perry, Graham)

    Parent

    Money (none / 0) (#148)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:01:44 AM EST
      is  a bigger factor at this point that current poll position for any candidate except possibly the CW declared top dog. One can't hang around without successful fundraising unless one is super rich.

      There will be early dropouts on the  Far Right because with Trump monopolizing all the attention, there simply won't be enough money flowing to the extreme right for all of those guys to maintain. I'm not predicting all of those 5 will be gone early but only 1 or 2 (likely Cruz and/or Huckabee) are going to have the bucks to be even remotely viable. But, the reality is all of them would be extreme longshots even without Trump. (The argument that grasp of reality is not necessarily a factor for all of them is taken.)

     

    Parent

    The other (none / 0) (#157)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:42:57 AM EST
    candidates in the top five can't find it in themselves to come down on Trump until he went after John McCain which is the same thing George W. Bush did back in 2000 which is also a case of them not being able to say it was wrong then.

    The only good news in Trump is he's sucking up all the oxygen in the GOP primary so that people are not paying attention to the idiocy that has been coming out of Jeb's mouth or Walker's mouth or Rubio's mouth.

    Parent

    Ted Cruz... (none / 0) (#159)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:06:31 AM EST
    ...still can't find it in him to say anything bad about Trump.  Positioning for a VP position ?

    Parent
    He only lost four pts though (none / 0) (#186)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 02:48:33 PM EST
    Saying that awful crap about McCain being a hero because he sucked at soldiering.  I mean, where is the line :)?  And he's still the frontrunner.  And he'll bounce back too.  You and I know it.  He's going to pick a different Conservative knee jerk spew and fully recover in a week right before our eyes.

    This is what happens to your brain when you do Hannity and O'Reilly daily.  We don't even have drugs that can make large swathes of people suffer this kind of group psychosis :)

    Parent

    And another Republican jumping into (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:15:17 AM EST
    The clown car....John Kasich

    Sweet Sixteen (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:14:39 AM EST
    Let the playoffs begin.

    Parent
    FOX should do (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:16:34 AM EST
    brackets

    Parent
    Fox only takes the top 10 (none / 0) (#144)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:35:17 AM EST
    And I suspect Kasich will be one of those (though I'm sure Bush hoped he isn't). That will likely leave Perry or Christie as the odd man out.

    Current top ten headed towards the 1st debate:

        Trump
        Bush
        Walker
        Rubio
        Huckabee
        Paul
        Carson
        Cruz
        Christie
        Perry

    Parent

    Somewhere in all of this is a (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:58:57 AM EST
    a Lord of the Flies reference/analogy...

    I do not believe that Donald Trump can or will maintain these kinds of numbers and win the nomination; he will be overtaken by an avalanche of opposition research that is probably already starting to come together in a back room somewhere.

    Maybe someday I will understand why people equate hyperbolic bombast with honesty, competency, integrity and leadership, but clearly Trump has seduced a lot of people into doing so with that approach.  But just because someone is willing to take off the filter and "tell it like it is" doesn't mean that (1) he's right in what he says or (2) his level of "honesty" goes any deeper than the surface.  

    Parent

    My own theory on Trump's (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:19:15 AM EST
    numbers is strictly name recognition. More people know who Donald Trump is than the rest of the clown car occupants. I believe that has large part in what is driving his poll numbers.

    Parent
    If this were true (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:32:21 AM EST
    Trump wouldn't have been averaging 1.5% in polling in the first 2 weeks of June.

    Parent
    Johnathan Strange & Mr Norrell (none / 0) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:56:45 AM EST
    if you have not been watching this BBC summer series you have missed 6 very entertaining hours.
    The seventh and final episode airs this coming weekend.   I assume they will do a marathon of the series.  Probably on Saturday.  But I have not looked.
    If they do take my advise and record it for a future boring day.

    Or (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 08:58:19 AM EST
    you coukd take my advice.  Either way.

    Parent
    Shocked, shocked... (none / 0) (#141)
    by thomas rogan on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 09:19:57 AM EST
    DUBAI (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said a speech by Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei on Saturday vowing to defy American policies in the region despite a deal with world powers over Tehran's nuclear program was "very disturbing".

    While all eyes are upon Trump, (none / 0) (#151)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:13:31 AM EST
    Scott Walker continues his own brand of damage.  Shuttling between roles as  Republican primary candidate where he is ready to bomb someone on inauguration day, to governor, where he stopped over in Madison to sign a ban on abortion at or beyond 20-weeks.

     No exemptions for incest, rape, mother's health.  Maybe, Walker is on Todd Akin's team and thinks the whole thing shuts down in such cases. During Walker's latest re-election, nine months ago, Walker expressed support for decisions to be made between woman and doctor.  

    Speaking of shutting down, Walker, on his recent visit to Wisconsin, also indicated that he plans to shut down the state Ethics Board.  The Board that unanimously approved the 2012 election recall.

     And, Walker wanted everyone to know that his wife, Tonette, really does not support same sex marriage and will not influence him through pillow talk.  Santorum criticized Walker's wife for being torn on the matter (her cousin is gay, and her sons were"disappointed" in their father's position).

    Not defending this bill at all (none / 0) (#154)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:22:07 AM EST
    but saying "No exemptions for incest, rape, mother's health" is somewhat misleading. The bill includes a clause that concludes:

    Doctors would be allowed to perform abortions beyond 20 weeks if the mother is likely to die or suffer irreversible injuries within 24 hours.

    Not that a narrow stipulation such as that makes anything about this bill right.

    Parent

    In discussions of abortion restrictions (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:24:13 AM EST
    a narrow exception for some cases where the pregnancy threatens the woman's life is not an exception for cases where the pregnancy threatens her "health." The two categories of exception are discussed separately, even though one could say -- in a logical but uninformative way -- that a threat of death is necessarily a threat to that person's health.

    Parent
    I would have been irreparably emotionally (none / 0) (#191)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 07:01:36 PM EST
    Damaged.  My mother died when I was seven. I lived with a horrible terror of leaving my children motherless. Josh is finally old enough and independent enough now that I can see the day coming that he doesn't need me.  

    If I was in that situation though, my two children possibly motherless or my health damaged because of a pregnancy, there is no question for me, the two here need me and will be forever damaged by losing me before they didn't need me anymore. My spirit would have been destroyed by my country and my government if I managed to live through such a thing.  I cried all the way through that documentary 'The Dead Mothers Club.

    Parent

    Here's a link to a terrific documentary (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 07:56:25 PM EST
    on what it means for abortion to be illegal, that is, for women -- including loving mothers -- to die unnecessarily. "Motherless," by Philadelphia filmmakers Goldwater & Attie.

    Parent
    Given the consequences to the (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 11:50:49 AM EST
    doctor/facility if the law is determined to have been violated, and given also, the laundry list of items with which the doctor must comply when or if the pregnancy is to be terminated, I believe what the bill does is make it highly unlikely that any doctor is going to risk the procedure, any facility is going to permit the procedure to be performed, which all but makes it illegal, which is clearly the intention.

    You should read the text of the bill.

    Here's a summary, in part:

    This bill prohibits the performance of an abortion, except in a medical emergency, unless the physician performing or inducing the abortion has made a determination of the probable postfertilization age of the unborn child or has relied upon another physician's determination of postfertilization age. The bill prohibits any person from performing or inducing, or attempting to perform or induce, an abortion when the unborn child is considered to be capable of experiencing pain, unless the woman is undergoing a medical emergency. Under the bill, the unborn child is capable of experiencing pain if the probable postfertilization age of the unborn child is 20 or more weeks. When the unborn child is considered capable of experiencing pain and the pregnant woman is undergoing a medical emergency, the bill requires the physician to terminate the pregnancy in the manner that, in reasonable medical judgment, provides the best opportunity for the unborn child to survive. The bill allows the woman on whom the abortion was performed or attempted, and the father of the unborn child, unless the pregnancy is the result of sexual assault or incest, to bring a claim for damages against a person who violates these limitations and requirements. A prosecuting attorney may also bring an action for injunctive relief for intentional or reckless violations of the limitations and requirements. Any person who violates the prohibition against performing, inducing, or attempting to perform or induce an abortion when the unborn child is capable of experiencing pain is guilty of a felony subject to a fine not to exceed $10,000, imprisonment not to exceed three years and six months, or both.


    Parent
    My assessment is (none / 0) (#156)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 21, 2015 at 10:31:53 AM EST
    that to hold out that the bill does have an exemption for the woman's health under the narrowest terms and conditions permitted is misleading.  The provision, at a minimum, does threaten the woman's health.  

    Parent
    Great - (none / 0) (#193)
    by Nemi on Wed Jul 22, 2015 at 06:02:58 AM EST
    albeit deeply depressing summary. Same Shit Different Day, eh. :(

    Oops! (none / 0) (#195)
    by Nemi on Wed Jul 22, 2015 at 06:09:47 AM EST
    Forgot to post under 'Reply to' (#165). Tsk-tsk ...

    Parent