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    St. Joan of Arc and the Pope. (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 06:18:49 PM EST
    The clerk of Rowan County has told Megyn Kelly of FOX that she will not resign from the job she is not doing because she would lose her "voice."  She is not only a martyr, but an activist on the government payroll.

      Clerk Davis is dragging her version of religion into politics.  Her dragging of hate and bigotry into the workplace has her adored and praised by some Christians.  She has been hailed by a Republican presidential candidate as a victim of the criminalizing of Christianity. Militias are willing to defend her right not to do her job at taxpayer expense.

    Pope Francis, at the invitation of the Republican Speaker of the House, made a presentation to the Congress that encourages humility, compassion and grace into the workings of politics and government.

     The Golden Rule is but fools gold and politicizes global problems, say some Republicans. The pope should stick to what he knows, say some Christians. None of this dignity and morals stuff.

      Marco Rubio reminds us that the Pope is not infallible on things he does not agree with. These are just firmly held beliefs. They carry no weight. This is government we are talking about, not Church.

     These are just the golden suggestions, says the ecumenical Rubio, who has been a Catholic, a Mormon, a Baptist, an attendee at an Evangelical Mega Church, and, again, a Catholic.  

    St Joan? (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by christinep on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:57:33 PM EST
    St Joan really was a martyr.  Also: My confirmation name ....  I admired the young saint because St. Joan was courageous.  That, btw, is more than a far cry from the proselytizing, limelight-seeking Kim Davis, the female authoritarian Huckabee.  

    Parent
    The religious freedom "concerns" (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 06:48:17 PM EST
    Have concerned some.  Me.  Fir one.

    Parent
    Obviously (none / 0) (#19)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    having failed to stop the heathens during the "The War on Christmas" it has now become a "World War on Christianity".

    The enemy has even sent the False Prophet Pope  to stray the flock from the true Jesus"Supply Side"Christ.

    Parent

    What Does it Take to Fire Kim Davis? (none / 0) (#22)
    by RickyJim on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 08:22:01 PM EST
    A recall election?  An impeachment trial in the state legislature?  Whatever is needed is long overdue.

    Parent
    The ACLU is (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 07:51:14 AM EST
    asking the judge to put the clerk's office into receivership and have someone else oversee the work.  An interesting approach, may not be something this judge is willing to do, but it is better than putting Davis back in jail, from a martyrdom standpoint.

    Parent
    I Don't Get That... (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:31:40 AM EST
    ...so she is not a martyr, one has to die to get that status in every religion on the planet, she is fundamentalist hero.  It's not like her being in jail is causing people to change their minds, but more importantly, that is not the judge's problem.

    He should be enforcing the order, and if 500 fundamentalist and 100 reporters want to show up to protest, use the money, her salary as a fine, to fund security and such.

    No interviews, no publicity while she is behind bars.  Let family visit, but give more than a weekend for her to come to her senses, or let her sit and collect her salary as a fine, before taxes.  If her idiot backers want to start forking over money to the county, so be it, everyone wins.  

    She's not denying/altering licenses, her followers have a victim, the county pulls in some cash, and anyone who wants to get a marriage license in the county gets on that is 100% legal.


    Parent

    Sure, but (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:46:25 AM EST
    I find the ideas of taking her power and ignoring her very attractive.  Martyrdom is what she wants.  Even if she might not like being in jail she would love the attention and the adoration.
    Just get her out of the office.  Stop her from interfereing.   Leave her talk and take her voice.  Make her just another wing at baying at the moon.

    Parent
    She Loved the Weekend in Jail... (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:01:29 AM EST
    ...but I can't imagine her being down with 2 weeks or a month.  Obviously I don't know, but since this is what we do with criminals I would like to think it's not fun.

    Huckabee and Co can stop in for a couple hours, but they aren't going to stay there and without 'stars' the press ain't gonna care.

    Unless she dies, she will not achieve martyrdom and just because the press says so doesn't make it so.  Can we call her what she really is, a fundamentalist hero who doesn't obey the law.

    The problem is she is not just talking, she is interfering and claiming certs are not legitimate.  Yeah, I am with you if all she did was talk.

    Parent

    With all due respect (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:06:25 AM EST
    I don't think you understand the current Christian Right.  These folks are not bothered by details like the fact she is not dead.

    Make no mistake, she is already a martyr.

    Parent

    We are, I believe, (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    of one mind on the political agenda of Clerk Davis that is set up for her fanatical religious beliefs to be imposed on the citizens of Rowan County, and, beyond.  Her agenda being stymied by the law of the  land, and its judicial enforcement, has caused her to be a cause celeb--within the ranks of the of the bigoted and hateful.

     My reference to Clerk Davis being a "martyr" is in the context of Davis, herself, and her wacko supporters, donning the mantle of "martyrdom" --victims of government oppression just for not doing her government job.

     True, martyrdom in an historical  religious sense usually infers death, and violent death at that. But,  my feeling is that Clerk Davis, while a fanatic, and fanatic tool, would prefer staying around so as to spread her "voice," and continue to collect her $80,000 per year.  With prospects for making more on the tent circuit.

     

    Parent

    How Can She Not Become a Martyr... (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:55:15 AM EST
    ...when everyone is calling her one.

    That is my point, it's not just the pro-kim crowd behind it, it's nearly everyone calling a her something she clearly is not.

    She isn't one, she a court defying zealot, and it would be nice if people, namely the media, who should understand that words have actual meanings.  We don't call people illegal because a human being cannot be illegal, so why call a court defying zealot, a martyr, because Mike Huckabee says so ?  

    IMO just using the term is conceding part of the debate, the biggest part, that she is serving some higher purpose.

    I get the context and I think we are all on the same page, and I don't know why it bugs me so much, probably because they are a step away from calling her the female jesus instead of the a court defying zealot.  And for the entire argument I think it's important that we call her what she really is.

    If you don't want her to be a martyr, for gods sake quit calling her one, then maybe they can toss the court defying zealot into the pokey instead of the martyr.  

    That is my point.

    Parent

    If she were refusing to (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:18:50 PM EST
    issue gun permits, they'd be burning her in effigy.

    The only thing that's being martyred here is the rule of law.

    Parent

    Don't forget that sure to be discussed (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:11:24 AM EST
    Run at political office.

    Parent
    Martyrs are willing lose their lives ... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:46:56 PM EST
    ... for their faith, in the best traditional sense of the term "martyr." But the word's secular usage has also since evolved to include those who endure persecution and punishment for their beliefs.

    That right-wing "martyrs" like Ms. Davis also believe that their religion somehow endows them with an inalienable right to persecute and punish other non-believers, is completely beside the point to the wingbat community.

    Personally, I've never understood how some people come to see themselves as God's instrument of divine retribution on this Earth. If the Bible is to be understood literally, as these same people so often claim, then even a cursory reading of Genesis and Exodus should enlighten them to the notion that the Lord is perfectly capable of exacting His due all on His own, and really doesn't need their assistance in that regard.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    You assume she would lose the election? (none / 0) (#25)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:33:57 PM EST
    It'sd Interesteing... (none / 0) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:48:32 AM EST
    ...because she is a D, and I would think even devoted R's would nee her to change parties.  But being that she won as an D, it would seem likely that the majority of voters are D's.  I know dixiecrats and all, but it's a college town and from what I understand, fairly liberal, at least in KY.  

    I know this, it will get more coverage than all other county clerk elections combined.

    Parent

    She is now an R (none / 0) (#95)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:17:33 PM EST
    Officially ? (none / 0) (#98)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:36:35 PM EST
    If you believe her (none / 0) (#106)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:04:57 PM EST
    I never believed (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:01:01 PM EST
    She was a D

    Parent
    The conservative legacy in one small poster: (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:27:05 PM EST
    From our "Dubya Dubya, Too!" file: (5.00 / 4) (#150)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:31:10 PM EST
    Black people need to "achieve earned success" and not just expect others to "take care of you with free stuff," says the trust fund baby whose entire political career is piggy-backing on the family name. (Cue campaign theme song.)

    He (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:40:16 PM EST
    is so lame. It's amazing how lame he is.

    Parent
    Perhaps his secret mission ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 07:56:36 PM EST
    ... is to ensure that by the time he's done and closed up shop, nobody will want to vote for any member of that frightfully obtuse family for anything ever again. That's the only logical rationale to account for his present candidacy.

    Parent
    The nation (none / 0) (#173)
    by KeysDan on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 01:35:16 PM EST
    is just now being "treated" to what Floridians have known since this smart Bush entered the scene. Although, everyone did get a good glimpse of Bush (he used his last name then] in the Terry Schiavo csse, and, of course, his role in the 2000 elections.

     It is somewhat perplexing that the wingnuts have eschewed Jeb--he would not disappoint them in the wacko department. But, of course, there is that immigration policy matter that has done him in.  But, they do not realize that Jeb is negotiable.
     

    Parent

    Sherryl "Stuck Backspace Key" Atkisson (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by shoephone on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:04:18 PM EST
    has a new Sunday show called "Full Measure" coming soon to a right-wing Sinclair affiliate near you. I just saw a promo on KOMO (very poetic), Seattle's ABC affiliate. It premiers on October 4th.

    The blurbs say she's boldly going where no one has gone before, to hold government accountable, and investigate "untouchable" subjects!

    It may be interesting to take note of which companies advertise during the show.

    For Howdy (none / 0) (#1)
    by CST on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:59:18 PM EST
    Re. medical "humor".

    I remember getting some shots and right before I got pricked the nurse said to me "my last patient was a big football player who fainted right after I gave him this shot"

    Then there was the time I needed an IV and were having trouble finding my vein, and they called a more experienced nurse over who said "sometimes you just gotta know where it is and go for it".  To be fair, she hit it on the first shot.

    Still, not the information I wanted or needed right before getting pricked.

    I was an Army medic (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:18:42 PM EST
    ...worked in the hospital laboratory.  Did thousands of blood draws.

    Otherwise tough guys often had a problem with it.

    Parent

    My medical humor story also (none / 0) (#2)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:14:11 PM EST
    involves needles...

    I went into labor with my first child, and was in the hospital and about to get an IV.

    The doctor who showed up to get it started gave me a long spiel about how technique is everything, and done properly, an IV stick shouldn't even leave a bruise.

    While he apparently had convinced himself he had attained master status in the insertion of IV needles, the reality was that the next day, my inner arm looked like it had been slammed in a door - black and blue like I had never seen before.

    One more:

    The first time I dislocated my shoulder, the docs decided to put it back in under what is known as conscious sedation.  A cocktail of drugs is administered on a gradual basis, and the patient's vitals assessed before additional medication is given.  

    Well, they kept giving me the drugs, giving me more and more and more.  I was still awake, talking coherently, engaged with the medical personnel on hand.  Finally, the doctor said that I just had to be sedated enough - that he didn't know why I was still awake and talking, but that they had had patients of linebacker size who had gone into respiratory arrest with this much medication on board...and I was way smaller than any linebacker.

    They were successful in putting my arm back where it belonged, and while I was told that with conscious sedation I wouldn't remember anything, I am here to tell you I remember it all.  Clearly.

    High tolerance and an aversion to giving in, I guess.

    Parent

    Ouch (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:18:27 PM EST
    The next time you have to deal with a IV or any of the other crap that gets stuck or taped to you say you yourself

    At least I'm not covered in body hair.

    Parent

    Zorba (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:29:53 PM EST
    The torture device was a stint. A tube from the kidney to the bladder.   First time for me.  I guess I was lucky.  It was not that big a deal for me.  The day it went in the Doc went on and on about how uncomfortable it would be for so many reasons.  Of course I was out when it was installed and for about a day it was a little sensitive.  If you know what I mean.
    The purposes was to keep things flowing since apparently backup is the main reason for pain with these things.
    It worked.  I had no more back up pain and very little to no discomfort with the stint.
    Until it was removed.  Ouch.
    He said I may have more pain if and when the remains pass  but not like before and so far so good.

    The real pain came reading the list of things I am not supposed to eat to avoid further recurrences.
    Man, talk about eroding the base of my food pyramid.

    Parent

    See, now, that's how (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Zorba on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:30:19 PM EST
    they get you.  It feels fine, it's helping you, and then.......they rip it out.    ;-)
    Hope it continues to go well, for you, Howdy.  Get better!

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:16:20 PM EST
    I think I reported that it was supposed to be 5-6 mm. That's what they told me.   The Doc said yesterday it was 10 mm.

    Damn doorstop.

    Parent

    I used to have a real phobia about needles. (none / 0) (#27)
    by vml68 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:12:58 AM EST
    One time while getting a Tetanus shot the nurse asked me if I was alive because my blood pressure was really low and she could not detect a pulse. She called a couple of other nurses to hold on to me while she gave me the shot because she was afraid I would pass out any minute :-)

    I was forced to get over that phobia when for a few years all I did was get my blood drawn with the occasional IV thrown in for what at the time felt like almost everyday.

    So, when I ended up in the emergency room one time and the nurse was inserting the needle for an IV (it took her a few tries to do it), I could tell that something was not right from the amount of pain I was feeling. But, she just would not listen. An hour later my arm was double in size and I was close to screaming in agony. When an IV is causing you so much pain that it overshadows the reason you are in the ER, you know you have a problem!

    The nurse then agreed that "maybe" she had messed up and told me she would switch the IV to the other arm. I refused and told my husband to not let her touch me. She went and got one of the doctors to talk to me. He was pretty irritated when he first walked in and then he saw my arm. He was furious and asked her to leave and told her he would take care of it himself. I had been bleeding pretty heavily for a while by then and he was having difficulty finding a vein to insert the IV. So, he ended up using an ultrasound machine to help him find a vein near my shoulder.

    Parent

    yikes! (none / 0) (#79)
    by sj on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:25:33 AM EST
    Ouch! (none / 0) (#92)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:03:12 PM EST
    How awful!  I have always thought that medical professionals need to listen to their patients more.  Some are really good about this, but some are definitely not.
    I have never had a problem with needles, getting blood drawn, or IV's, fortunately.  I have my blood drawn every six months to test my liver function and cholesterol levels.  I just look at the blood coming into the tube, and think it's kind of interesting.  (Even though I have small veins, and I always have to tell any new nurse or phlebotomist which arm to use, since one is better than the other.)

    Parent
    Fortunately, most of the doctors and nurses (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by vml68 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:56:30 PM EST
    I have dealt with have been good, if not great. This nurse was the exception. She was truly horrible.
    Aside from the IV fiasco, I had bled through my hospital gown and the sheet and blanket on the hospital bed and asked her for help changing it. She left, came back with the items, handed them to my husband and left the room.
    Talk about a person being in the wrong profession.

    While I have learnt to tolerate having my blood drawn, I still have to look away when they are inserting the needle. As for watching my blood flowing into the tube, never gonna happen!

    Parent

    That "nurse" (none / 0) (#139)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:04:20 PM EST
    was definitely in the wrong profession!  Oy!
    I do find myself interested in medical procedures of any type.  I think, in another life, I might have been a pathologist or something akin to it.  Blood, operations, dissections, etc, don't bother me, they just seem rather interesting.
    Okay, okay, call me weird.    ;-)

    Parent
    Funnily enough, I had wanted to be a (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by vml68 on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:00:26 AM EST
    surgeon. Had no problems doing dissections and experiments on cockroaches, earthworms, frogs, rats, fetal pigs.
    Then we moved on to rabbits. Got through the anesthesia and dissection fine but when it came time to euthanize the animal, I really struggled.
    It did not take me too long after that to figure out that I was not cut out to be a doctor/surgeon or a veterinarian.

    Parent
    Oddly Enough... (none / 0) (#8)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:59:56 PM EST
    ...I used to go out with this girl that liked pain, true blue masochist, she explained to me in a way that made sense, so now I actually enjoy giving blood to the vultures, the more tubes the better, for no other reason than I get a kick out them thinking it's odd that I don't mind.

    I could never make the transition to the dentist, which she did, that is real pain, not the equivalent to pulling out a facial hair.

    So now whenever I stub my toe or something else painful, I tell myself to enjoy the pain, while I never actually enjoy it, it makes it hurt less if that makes sense.
    -----------

    And Howdy, 10mm is a centimeter, about 4/10ths of an inch, that is no joke, like the pinky finger a teenager. Damn.

    Parent

    Pfft (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:12:41 PM EST
    Had some experience wth this myself.  Pitching only.  No catching please.  Enjoying pain, while not something I condemn, will never be something I understand.

    On a long list f things I don't understand.

    My standard instruction to every doctor I've ever had is, "I have a MUCH higher tolerance for drugs than I do fr pain.  I don't want to feel this"

    Some dctors have told me they appreciate the information because some people have a problem with drugs and would rather have pain.  Whatever.  Most Drs seem to have no problem with relieving the pain.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#123)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    Dislocated a toe playing basketball in a adult league
    Went to the ER early the following morning,

    After getting a needle in the toe, doc grabs the ankle , then the toe and tries to pop it back in place. No go on round one
    After a short break , he tries again...No go

    He tries once more, again after another shot to the toe. Nope, not happening.

    About an hour or two later, a specialist walks in to my room, looks at the toe, grabs it , jams it into the foot, and holds on. I finally tell him, doc, enough , try again in a bit.
    He says , I got it in, we just need a nurse to help set it. Needless to say , the nurse heard my request for help very quickly.

    Parent

    That Reminded Me... (none / 0) (#129)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:08:47 PM EST
    ...of the time I got my index finger caught in a water tight door, split like a grape.  This is on a ship and medics gave me Motrin before they proceeded to stitch the end of my finger, which included a stitch under my nail.  I have always been the type to watch, I want to see what they are doing and what they were doing was bad.  They used a scalpel to separate the nail and the Motrin wouldn't help a hang nail.

    Now that I think about it, I think that was worse pain than a kidney stone.  I clearly remember my face getting very hot.
    ------------

    I have big feet and always stubbing them, that hurts like insanely bad, I can't imagine breaking one and having it set, or trying time and time again.  I would have gone bonkers.

    Parent

    Laughing (none / 0) (#143)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:15:42 PM EST
    Now,

    I remember the specialist left immediately after the nurse was in the process of taping it in place,
    I looked at her and said
    The doc had a much higher threshold of pain than I did.

    Parent

    ... having been crushed in a stampede during their Hajj (pilgrimage) on the first day of Eid al-Adha, one of the holiest days in the Muslim calendar. It's the deadliest such incident since over 1,400 were similarly killed in Mecca back in 1990.

    The Guy From the Deli... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:12:32 PM EST
    ...downstairs is currently at Mecca.  I was talking to his kid yesterday, before this news, about the crane that a sandstorm tipped over last week that killed 106 people, I believe.

    His dad was there when it happened, but the remarkable thing, he told me they are cranes everywhere, hundreds of them because they are expanding and that when it's done, Mecca will have a capacity of 5 million people.  To which I commented is more than the actually city of Houston, nearly double.

    That is unbelievable to me.

    Wiki says:

    Masjid al-Haram, aka as the Sacred Mosque
    900,000 worshippers (increased to 4,000,000 worshippers during the Hajj period)

    So 5M doesn't seem out of line if they are currently renovating.

    Parent

    Whatsup with MSNBC (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:22:33 PM EST
    Being the Pope Channel?  I guess some one has t do it.   It's not wall to wall on the other news channels.

    Did you think (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:27:34 PM EST
    ...FOX was going to give air time to heresy?

    Parent
    CNN (none / 0) (#14)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:31:25 PM EST
    has been pretty constant with it also. Truthfully I would rather listen to Trump blather then watch a Jetliner on the tarmac for 10 minutes.

    Parent
    Or Tweety (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 05:45:14 PM EST
    "I gues the Pope is ruling by "fiat"!

    Baha Baha [bruuuuph] baha

    Parent

    I remember Bob Somerby at the Howler (none / 0) (#20)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 07:34:01 PM EST
    posting the list of Catholics in the management and reporting hierarchy at NBC and MSNBC...probably still a bunch around...Luke Russert is waxing rhapsodic in my Twitter feed, and I don't even follow him.

    Parent
    Well, Luke Russert is Catholic. (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:21:28 PM EST
    He may be a 25-watt bulb plugged into a 100-watt socket when it comes to actual journalism, but I'm sure he attends Mass every Sunday at Our Lady of Vacuous Impertinence, just like his hallowed father, St. Timothy the Ingratiator. I wonder if he'll ask His Holiness if he thinks he's too old for the job.

    Parent
    Why do you ask? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:10:55 PM EST
    Are you a Trumpaholic who's Jonesing for his daily loudmouthed fix of crude comments, crass insults and glittering generalities? Can't help you there, good buddy. Perhaps you should find the 700 Club and get yourself of heaping helping of the Rev. Pat Robertson, sort of the political equivalent of methadone.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Stonewall (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 06:46:32 PM EST
    Is out tomorrow.  I am looking forward to seeing it.   Although I fear the criticism is not without cause-

    Even prior to its release, Stonewall has been a lightning rod for controversy. Almost immediately after the trailer's debut, Emmerich and writer Jon Robin Baitz were accused of whitewashing the story by inserting a fictional cis, gay white male as the lead. One particularly scathing parody took the film to task for seemingly demoting trans characters, women and characters of color to supporting characters in their own story, if not erasing them entirely.

    Emmerich and Baitz's response was a simple plea: Wait to see the full movie before you judge. Emmerich's Facebook response emphasized equality, "We are all the same in our struggle for acceptance."

    I have actually met Roland Emmerich a couple of times.  I have a very good friend, Karen Goukekas, who has been VFX Director and Digital Effects Directer of several of his movies.   Some of this was happening when I was in LA so I got included in drinks and or dinner a few times.  My opinion if him is that he is a likable enough guy.  As my experience with directors go he is unusually so.  Unfortunately my opinion of him as a director is not so great.  I basically think he is a hack.  A hack who has his moments and sometimes makes enjoyable films.  I had mixed feelings when I heard he was directing Stinewall.   He's gay.  That's good.  He's a hack.  Not so good.

    Anyway, I still am interested in seeing it.

    Stonewall (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 07:48:02 PM EST
    Yikes! Judging by that trailer, ... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:24:48 PM EST
    Judging by that trailer, "Stonewall" looks hopelessly clichéd and hackneyed. No wonder a lot of LGBT people are up in arms over it. Further, the film's first reviews are now in and needless to say, the critics are not kind.

    That's unfortunate, because the Stonewall riot was a seminal event in the struggle for LGBT rights and acceptance in this country, and it's a story that deserves to be seen by a mainstream audience.

    It's just too bad that the director and screenwriter apparently refused to trust their prospective audience to appreciate a quality story about a bunch of pissed-off drag queens and LGBT people of color who were tired of being bullied, and finally decided to show everyone that queer doesn't necessarily equate with sissy.

    Instead, again judging by that trailer and those first reviews, "Stonewall" appears to be pure vanilla milk shake, the sort of contrived filmmaking which misconstrued that 46-year-old event and likely marginalized its true heroes in the process.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    In a way (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:11:57 AM EST
    This awful movie and the massive backlash could end up being more educational than it would have been if it had been more successful and gone unnoticed.

    There will be other films.

    Parent

    TGIF and GO DUCKS (none / 0) (#28)
    by fishcamp on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:01:04 AM EST


    For some reason I thought of you (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:09:18 AM EST
    Time to go (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:27:06 AM EST
    CaptHowdy

    Btw
    If you've had problems linking with a iPad get the iOS updates and try again.  The normal linking prices is working fine for me now.   After months of not.

    Breaking: Boehner resigning from Congress (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:39:13 AM EST
    End of October

    Jinx (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:40:15 AM EST
    Great minds, and all that (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:52:03 AM EST
    Pretty shocking.  Not even saying, "I won't run next time," but stepping down mid-term??

    Unless there's some sort of health issue....

    Parent

    See below (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:55:12 AM EST
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#53)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:09:00 AM EST
    ...it's called the tea party syndrome.  

    He met with some of their leaders yesterday and I am guessing they told him they aren't budging on defunding PP by half a billion dollars and will shut down the government over it.

    Parent

    I was hoping (none / 0) (#65)
    by ragebot on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:49:09 AM EST
    this would stop the all pope on all channels effect but sad to say the pope is still on all the cable news channels.

    Parent
    Still interesting timing (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:52:03 AM EST
    Was he trying to slip it in when it would not generate wall to wall coverage?  Even the weekend shows will be Popealooza with a 3 minute segment in the resignation of the House Speaker probably.

    Parent
    Boehner to resign from congress next month (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:39:53 AM EST
    Wow.  We won't have orange boy to kick around anymore.

    Dare I say we may miss him.


    Is (none / 0) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:50:26 AM EST
    It possible for the monkey house to descend further into chaos?

    Parent
    Oh I think it is yes (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:54:40 AM EST
    Apparently the reason he is doing this is because he is not willing to shut down the government for God only knows how long and plans to make a deal with Nancy govern with the help of democratic votes.

    Which mean he will be out.

    Apparently he is accepting thus and doing what needs to be done.

    Oh yes, I think it can get worse.

    Parent

    it can get worse (none / 0) (#43)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:01:33 AM EST
    and likely will - but in the short term this may be a good thing no?

    Sounds like they may actually govern for the time being.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:11:22 AM EST
    I expect for her cooperation Nancy may demand a deal that might get us through the 2016 elections.  The initial budget deal was only for a couple of months and Boehner was not even going to be able to pass that.

    Her demands for cooperation are already the subject of speculation.

    That woul make sense to me.

    Parent

    Absolutely. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:02:26 AM EST
    The GOP congress is going to create a yellow brick road for Hillary. Who is line to become speaker? I have no idea.

    Parent
    Speaker Kevin McCarthy (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:28:57 AM EST
    Discuss.

    Parent
    The scuttlebutt seems to be (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:54:19 AM EST
    He might be to much like Boehner.  An establishment deal maker.

    I think I expect a complete moonbat.  No compromise.  No prisoners.


    Parent

    I am Guessing Cruz-esque... (none / 0) (#55)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:11:08 AM EST
    ...who would rather run the country into the ground than compromise.  Which of course is exactly what they are going to do over Planned Parenthood.

    Parent
    One word: Bakersfield. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    It's the seat of Kern County, which is arguably the most right-wing conservative region of California. This is the same Central Valley oil city that produced the odious Roy Ashburn, the vociferously homophobic GOP state senator whose warped mind hatched the idea for Proposition 8.

    But Karma's a rather vindictive b!+ch when offended, and because Sen. Ashburn was also a very deeply closeted gay man, she worked her spell. Not too long after Prop. 8's passage, Ashburn was pulled over by Sacramento police for DUI as he left a popular gay nightclub in the company of a rent boy. Once outed, he resigned his office within days, and Californians in general began to reconsider Prop. 8 in the wake of his public humiliation and departure.

    I'm not saying that Kevin McCarthy's a closet case, only that he comes from an area that's very close-minded and intolerant collectively. He's never going to be mistaken as the Second Coming of Nancy Pelosi, that's for sure.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    OT - Question for you and other TL folks (none / 0) (#88)
    by vml68 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:34:41 PM EST
    familiar with southern California.
    Which airport would be better to fly into, LAX or San Diego, if I plan to go to Laguna Niguel?

    Parent
    vmi, they are about equi-distant, (none / 0) (#89)
    by fishcamp on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:43:56 PM EST
    but I prefer the drive from San Diego, especially if you take the old coast route.  The drive down from LAX will be inland and have lots of traffic.  Have you thought about the John Wayne airport in Orange County?  It's almost in Laguna Niguel.

    Parent
    I think your recommendation of John Wayne Airport is much better.

    Parent
    Yep, the drive to San Diego (none / 0) (#100)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:40:13 PM EST
    used to be relatively easy and predictable....No longer....

    Parent
    Whenever we're in Pasadena ... (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:20:43 PM EST
    ... and want to drive down to San Diego, we now take I-210 east to the I-10 interchange in San Dimas, then head south on I-15 immediately after we pass Ontario Airport. It's about 20 miles farther than the more direct route south on I-5, and not a particularly pretty drive through Corona, Temecula and Escondido. Nevertheless, taking I-15 rather than I-5 actually shaves off almost an hour in drive time, because you avoid all that traffic in central Orange County. You definitely want to avoid Anaheim, Santa Ana and Irvine, particularly during the morning and evening commute.

    Parent
    We went to a Chargers (none / 0) (#169)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:49:38 PM EST
    pre-season game, and it was a nightmare.....

    The traffic was horrid going south on a weekday afternoon.....

    It took three hours from Southern Orange County.

    Stop and go through Oceanside--ask Oculus--but it never seemed to be like this.....Stop and Go in La Jolla too.  What a mess--all the way down.....And I thought we would be driving against the flow....which should have been north, not south....

    Parent

    Thanks, Fishcamp, Donald and MKS. (none / 0) (#107)
    by vml68 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:05:50 PM EST
    I knew that LAX and SAN were about the same distance from Laguna Niguel but was looking for which would be the better drive. Sounds like the drive from SAN would be more scenic but both would suck in terms of traffic.

    I will look into the other airports.

    Parent

    IMO Laguna Niguel and the surrounding (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:32:48 PM EST
    Beaches are so beautiful, just get there fast and don't worry about getting your scenery from the airport drive. Get settled and then do your highway 1 cruising between Laguna and Newport.

    Parent
    After my father died in Vietnam, ... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:52:25 PM EST
    ... my mother wanted to move to Laguna Beach and raise us there, but my grandparents talked her out of it. They also bought her our house in the Hastings Ranch area of Pasadena, as an additional incentive to stay closer to family. Now, Pasadena was a great place to grow up, but it would've also been way cool to live in Laguna, IMHO. It's such a beautiful place. I love the SoCal beach communities.

    Parent
    omigod, noooo (none / 0) (#170)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:58:14 PM EST
    Beach traffic and tourists making PCH a parking lot....

    The Laguna to Newport leg used to be prettier....But development has swallowed up much (they call it Newport Coast.)  There was a big fight, and environmentalists thought they could stop more development because of  a rare bird habitat.   The Coastal Commission was thought to be favorably inclined to the "bird" argument.  But a wild fire that burned all of the coastal sage made the whole argument moot--no more rare birds, no more rare bird habitat, no more stopping further development.

    The best coastal drive in Southern California is through Camp Pendleton.  Totally undeveloped.  Just the original coastal sage for miles around....The Marines are the best conservancy plan around.....  

    Parent

    vmi, I think you live in Florida, (none / 0) (#120)
    by fishcamp on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    But I don't know which airport you use.  Even if you need to change planes enroute, to get to John Wayne airport, it would be better than flying into the nightmare of LAX and the ensuing drive.

    Parent
    Yes, we moved to FL a year ago. (none / 0) (#165)
    by vml68 on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:14:01 AM EST
    We've decided to give flying into LAX a pass. I will save that experience for when I plan to stay in LA for a few days.

    Parent
    Flights into and out of John Wayne will likely (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 04:47:17 AM EST
    be more expensive than SAN or LAX. I'd avoid LAX if possible. Depending on the time of day, drive from SAN to Laguna should be smooth.

    Parent
    The closest commercial airport to ... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    ... Laguna Niguel is actually John Wayne (SNA) in Santa Ana. It's about 20 minutes away and is served by most all the major air carriers. Personally, I'd fly into there, and thus avoid both LAX and SAN altogether.

    There's also Long Beach (LGB), which is the west coast hub for JetBlue Airways, and Ontario (ONT), which is also served by most major carriers. Both of those airports are much more convenient to Laguna Niguel that either LAX or SAN.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    John Wayne first (none / 0) (#99)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    then San Diego.

    or Long Beach.....

    All better than LAX.

    Parent

    Coming from Hawaii, ... (none / 0) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:25:25 PM EST
    ... we're pretty much stuck with flying into LAX, unless we're willing to change planes in San Francisco or Phoenix.

    Aloha Airlines used to fly nonstop from Honolulu to Santa Ana and Burbank, which were very popular routes, but that service ended in 2009 with the company's decision to get out of the passenger business and become an exclusively all-cargo container jet carrier. United Airlines then entered the SNA-HNL market, but ended it in 2012 for some reason.

    Personally, I don't mind LAX at all, but that's probably because I've been flying in and out of that airport since I was a child, nearly 50 years now, and so I'm used to it and know my way around the facility.

    Rumor has it that once Hawaiian Airlines takes delivery in 2017 of some of its new single-aisle A321-Neo aircraft, which can fly in and out of smaller airports with shorter runways, it will commence service between the islands and SNA / BUR / ONT. But there's been no confirmation of that as yet. I'd certainly welcome it, because BUR is much closer to my family in the San Gabriel Valley than is LAX.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Fly into John Wayne (none / 0) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:17:17 PM EST
    and pick up Rt 1 if you want some scenery.

    Otherwise take the 405 down to the 5 and then down it. Should take about 90 minutes road time depending on traffic. John Wayne is easy to rent a car at and easy to get in/out.

    John Wayne may be a lot more expensive than LAX. If that's the case and cost is important try San Diego for cost and use that if it is cheaper.

    If it must be LAX you can still do Rt1. It runs right by the entrance.

    Parent

    Another way out of John Wayne is Rt 73 (none / 0) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:23:17 PM EST
    might better than the others.

    Parent
    From Costa Mesa (where SNA is) to Mission Viejo, which is the closest exit to Laguna Niguel, the toll is about $7.00 one-way in weekdays, and about $5.30 on the weekends. And even more of a hassle, you have to pay electronically and online because there are no toll booths. I'd take I-405 just on principle.

    Parent
    I fully concur about John Wayne.... (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:27:54 PM EST
    But taking 1 all the way from Lax is stop and go and not much fun...maybe take the 405 to at least Long Beach or Seal Beach....

    Ah, I do miss SoCal travel talk.

    Parent

    Everything is a half hour drive (none / 0) (#171)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 01:09:30 PM EST
    in Southern California, don'tcha' know?

    90 minutes from John Wayne to Laguna Niguel?  On a really, really, really bad day.  Usually 20 minutes....the 405/5 on a Friday afternoon could take longer....Take the 73, and you are talking maybe even 15 minutes--depending on where you are going....It will only cost you ten dollars a mile.

    90 minutes from John Wayne to San Diego was actually once do-able.....

     

    Parent

    Is Orange County John Wayne an option? (none / 0) (#155)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:24:10 PM EST
    More airlines than you would expect fly in there.

    Parent
    We've decided to fly into San Diego (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by vml68 on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:06:28 AM EST
    spend a couple of days there and then go on to Laguna Niguel. And, on the way back home we will fly out of John Wayne.

    Parent
    SNA is certainly convenient for ... (none / 0) (#160)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:21:04 PM EST
    ... Orange County residents. However, I've found it somewhat freaky to fly in and out of there, because its primary runway is only 5,700 feet long, rendering it the shortest active commercial runway in the United States.

    When your plane lands, the pilot immediately hits the brakes and it's a very hard and fast stop. And when you take off to the south, the pilot has to climb very steeply before abruptly throttling back, because Newport Beach has a very strict aircraft noise ordinance with lots of older residents who are just itching to complain about any perceived violations, because they apparently have nothing else to do.

    So you cruise over the town of Newport Beach for about 2-3 minutes, with old codgers presumably standing outside in their bathrobes and shaking their fists angrily at you while your plane passes overhead. Then, after the aircraft crosses the coastline and is over the ocean, the pilot once again goes full throttle and you start to climb to your designated cruising altitude.

    I've never experienced anything like that takeoff at other airports.

    Parent

    Yes! That take-off is amazing (none / 0) (#168)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM EST
    Freaked me out the first time.


    Parent
    Rock and roll, my friend (none / 0) (#172)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 01:10:55 PM EST
    Better than what they used to call an "E-ticket" ride at Disneyland....

    Parent
    I'm not buying it. I think somebody has (none / 0) (#68)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:53:12 AM EST
    the goods on the tan man.

    Parent
    Sometimes an orange (none / 0) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    Is just an orange

    Parent
    I somehow recieved a John Boehner tweet (none / 0) (#153)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 08:48:20 PM EST
    about the pope, clicked and landed on Boehner's website.  It is Disqus comment enabled - so I could post.

    The tea party is there in full wackaloon force.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#72)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    Charlie is right
    [the Pope] listened to Boehner's plight and said, mildly, "Jesus H. Christ in a Fiat, my son, these people crazy. Get out while you can."


    Parent
    two articles today (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:13:07 AM EST
    touching on drug abuse.

    First Article

    "The state Senate is expected to vote next week on a bill that would require all public school districts in Massachusetts to screen seventh and 10th graders for potential drug use, with an eye toward stemming the scourge of opioid abuse at an early stage.

    The screenings would not involve drug tests. Rather, the screener -- who could be a school nurse or psychologist trained in speaking to kids about drug use -- would determine through a conversation if the student was engaged in risky behavior, according to a Senate briefing for reporters on the proposal.

    The intent is to identify students who need help "and to try to move them in a way that they will want to go into treatment. You can't force them," said Senator Jennifer L. Flanagan, Democrat of Leominster, the main backer of the provision.

    Students or parents would be able to opt out of the screening. Parents wouldn't be immediately notified of the screening results, and the bill would work to protect students' privacy, Flanagan said. Parents would be notified only in the most extreme cases of dependence or addiction, according to a Flanagan aide."

    My opinion - it's certainly different.  There are a lot of legitimate privacy concerns, but if it's implemented carefully, and they seem to have their eyes on the right "prize" (mental health), I think this could be a positive development.

    Second Article

    "Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will visit Boston next week, planning to discuss substance-abuse issues with Mayor Martin J. Walsh and Attorney General Maura Healey, a Clinton campaign official said Thursday"

    "Clinton has said repeatedly that she has been surprised by the regularity with which she hears on the campaign trail about how widespread the problem is."

    Honestly... I guess I'm just glad someone cares.  But I think it's incredibly important that this whole conversation moves in the right direction - that is, mental health - rather than a continuation of the "war on drugs".  And so the conversations also make me nervous, because they have historically gone the other way.


    While it certainly is a medical problrm (2.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:27:45 AM EST
    In many cases, it is not always.  I think the movement to decriminalize drugs because those in jail/prison suffer from a "mental health issue" is just a red herring.

    Some people just like to get high via illegal means.  Equating them with those who truly suffer from a mental disorder is wrong.  

    This is not an either/or issue.

    Parent

    I can't decide (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:05:23 AM EST
    If this is clueless or heartless.

    You know this isn't about pot right?  That there is a heroin epidemic that is killing people.  Mostly young people.

    And frankly, that's the only reason it matters that someone likes to get high.  Otherwise - who the hell cares.

    You don't get to define what "true" suffering is.

    Parent

    Neither do you (2.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:11:07 AM EST
    So pray tell me, since you are so wise.  Why do people do heroin in the first place?  Some do B cause they hav mental health issues.  But not all.

    I find the fact that there are so many people who want to excuse ALL drug users as having mental health issues that need to be treated, as naive at best, and just plain silly at the worst.

    Help those who need help.  But stop making excuses for all drug users and who are doing it just because (especially if they get caught).

    Parent

    Addiction (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    Is both a physical and a mental health issue.  We are doing an OK job of treating the physical issue, and a p*ss poor job of treating the mental one.

    There's the reason you try it, and then there's the reason you continue to do it until it kills you.  And I'm not willing to write off everyone who wants to try things (for whatever reason) as not being worthy of help.

    I think it's relevant now to point out that the first article I talked about is discussing treatment of 7th and 10th graders.

    Parent

    How about stopping making excuses (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:51:32 AM EST
    for the brutalization of people who break the law simply because exacting revenge for society holds a higher priority for you than helping people.

    Parent
    Drug Addiction (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:45:33 PM EST
    affects those who are not mentally ill.

    Addicts who are not otherwise mentally  ill, still need treatment.   It sounds like you saying that addicts who are not mentally ill (called "dual diagnosis") don't deserve treatment but should just use will power and get their act together.

    It just doesn't work that way.  The heroin epidemic is severe and widespread.  Many young people are addicted.

    Parent

    Some people like to get a nice buzz (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    going from their beer, wine, whiskey or vodka - and they can, because it's perfectly legal to buy alcohol.

    Which is not to say that alcohol use and abuse doesn't have negative consequences - we know that it does.  

    I just don't think the fact that some people use drugs for the fun of it, and some because they have mental health issues, is the metric by which we should decide whether to continue to criminalize drugs.  Not when the very same applies to alcohol use; alcohol is very much a drug, too, and many who drink it are doing it as a form of self-medication.  They tell themselves it's for many other reasons, but if you're having a drink in order to relax from a stressful day, you're not doing anything different than the person who's popping a pill to get the same effect - except you didn't have to buy your vodka on the street corner and risk getting arrested.

    We need a different approach; the one we've been using just isn't working.

    Parent

    True, but (none / 0) (#61)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:28:02 AM EST
    We don't say of drunk drivers who are in jail, "Well, they shouldn't be there because they are Alcoholics."

    Yes, some of them are alcoholics and should get help.

    But many of them aren't, so why should we treat them the same?

    Parent

    Since when is one person ever treated (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:02:51 AM EST
    the same as another when it comes to the law?

    When's the last time someone landed in jail merely for possession of alcohol, who wasn't underage?  Now, how many people have landed there just for possession of drugs?

    The fact is that we do sometimes say that someone needs alcohol treatment instead of incarceration, don't we?  How many times has someone avoided jail by agreeing to go to rehab, for example?

    Decriminalizing drugs in some form or fashion doesn't mean that someone can't be punished for violating other laws, but just as with alcohol, very often the other laws that get broken are related to drug/alcohol use or abuse.  There has to be an assessment of whether that relationship is an incidental one, or is a consequence of addiction.

    But, really, to suggest that somehow we've ever treated everyone the same where the law is concerned is just ridiculous.

    Parent

    How you distinguish (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:50:24 PM EST
    between the  mentally ill and the casual user is not all that easy, and really does not make sense.

    If you are in jail because of a DUI, then you need help, all that denial notwithstanding....

    Layering in a separate mental illness, such as bipolar, only makes everything more complicated.   Just because an addict or alcoholic does not have a dual diagnosis does not mean they do not need treatment.

    Parent

    MKS, what I don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by fishcamp on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:36:56 PM EST
    Is that some people, like me, have one or two drinks a week, but if I went out to dinner and had three glasses of wine, I could get a DUI and go to jail.  I don't need any help, and am not in denial.  I know, people who say that are often referred to as the very type that do need help.  Truthfully, on Monday, when I came home from the charming exam at the Urologist, I made one boat drink, but didn't even finish it, and have not had a drink since.  If I went out tonight and had two or three drinks I could go to jail.  Do I have a problem and need help?  BTW, since I'm not going out tonight, due to all those shrimp I have, I better mix a boat drink and see if I can finish it.  (-:

    Parent
    Are you using rum or tequila in your boat drink? (none / 0) (#109)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:41:44 PM EST
    Vodka (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by fishcamp on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:55:30 PM EST
    A much better choice (none / 0) (#133)
    by MO Blue on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:42:24 PM EST
    IMO.

    Parent
    But what kind of vodka? (none / 0) (#142)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:14:26 PM EST
    There's the good stuff, Absolut and Stoli, and then on the lower end there's Popov and Royal Gate. My daughter says Popov was the official vodka of the UAlbany dorms, but she calls it "Vodka In A Drum." (She was obviously raised to identify and appreciate good quality.)

    Personally, if I'm going to drink, I'm not going to settle for cheap and trashy. Life's just too short.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I would put... (none / 0) (#176)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:28:41 AM EST
    ... Monopolowa up against Stolichnaya any day, and at about half the price.  Wheat vodka, to me, always has that isopropyl taste, even Stolichnaya; Absolute is rail liquor in my book.

    Monopolowa is made from potatoes, which not only taste better, but is much easier on your stomach than any wheat derived liquors.  

    Parent

    Tito or (none / 0) (#148)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:07:42 PM EST
    Grey Goose?  Tito makes a good boat drink.

    Parent
    I didn't think I was that sheltered (none / 0) (#174)
    by sj on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 02:34:58 AM EST
    I had to google "boat drink". Apparently I am not as debauched as I thought.

    Parent
    sj, that's funny, I didn't know (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by fishcamp on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 09:02:27 AM EST
    all that either until I googled boat drinks.  I just say boat drinks since I have a boat.  I do know Jimmy Buffett since he lived in Aspen for years, and I also knew they came with little umbrellas, of which I have none.  I do have a gigantic ABC Sports umbrella that comes in very handy down here during the rainy season, which is now.  My boat drink is merely vodka and cranberry juice that I drink while sitting in my chair watching the rain pelting my boat.  You can definitely find boat drinks at all the local watering holes down here, mostly the ghastly sweet rum runners.  Everybody is welcome to come ride with me to the five bar restaurants I visit by boat.  Then I drink iced tea since I don't need a BUI.  (-:

    Parent
    After reading my rambling statement, (none / 0) (#167)
    by fishcamp on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 07:48:53 AM EST
    my point is that everybody that gets a DUI does not need an extensive alcohol treatment program.

    Parent
    A Better Comparison... (none / 0) (#111)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:52:37 PM EST
    ...for me would be in high-school, how to know which one of  group of ~10 friends would become a raging alcoholic that currently doesn't leave his house ?  

    No fricken I idea and, I would, and just about anyone who has known an addict, kill to know the answer to why some people can't say 'no' at the appropriate time and why some cannot.  And the cannots are as varied as the cans.

    For the record, to be an alcoholic in jail you have actually do something other than being drunk, like disorderly, too young, or driving, and with some exceptions, those jail times usually involve a night in the.... drunk tank.

    DUI folks are in jail for something they did while being under the influence, namely endangering lives.  Obviously we aren't going to excuse actual crimes because of alcohol or drugs.  But when the crime is possession, which is generally a requirement of being an addict, unlike a DUI were driving is not a requirement of being an alcoholic, then let's cut them some slack.  The only crime committed is directly related to their addiction.  

    We don't ever lock people up for being under the influence of alcohol/drugs because it's not illegal to get fried out of your mind.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:18:26 PM EST
    there is a genetic component to it. Alcoholism seems to run in families. Or in the case of my cousin he apparently had the genetic makeup for alcoholism yet he came from a family of teetotalers. So no one realized it was there.

    Parent
    it seems (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:13:44 AM EST
    there is also a physical problem with addiction but the mental health community has been the one that has been assigned to deal with addiction in this country. The decriminalization IMO is more about quit putting people in jail for what is essentially not a problem that law enforcement can handle.

    Parent
    Honestly (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:20:47 AM EST
    They do treat the physical dependency with certain drugs.  It can make things worse though if it happens in a vacuum because that's often when people overdose is when they are only being treated for the physical dependency side but not the rest of it.

    The problem with treating it as a criminal issue is - it doesn't work and it's a waste of resources and often just makes things worse.  What is the goal that it is trying to accomplish?  Because it certainly doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything good.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:45:41 AM EST
    I was really thinking of how they have had great success in Europe with treating addiction.

    Parent
    Decriminalization (none / 0) (#60)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    I keep seeing it mentioned, but I am never quite sure what it specifically means.
    I have no problem with the decriminalization of drug users,

    But have not seen, or am just unaware of how the decriminalization would handle drug dealers?

    Do the sellers of illegal drugs also benefit from decriminalization?

    That also is a gray area, many deal drugs to support their habit, and the really rich dealers never touch their product.

    Parent

    Depends on the drug (none / 0) (#62)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    With something like pot - bring it into the general marketplace, tax it, sell it, it's a non issue.  Treat it like booze.

    With something like heroin - probably you would want it under the control of the state and doctors in some way.

    Parent

    There will probably always be an underground (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:45:01 AM EST
    Market.  Fighting that depends on so many things like quality price and limits to who can legally buy.

    I would think this would especially be a problem in the early stages of any decriminalization.

    As you say, not a reason to not do it.

    Parent

    As far as the question of (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:54:18 AM EST
    What about dealers, I'm fine with harsher penalties for black marketing.   For many reasons.  I think lots of people would be.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#82)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:06:59 PM EST
    Now I know Sanders , Clinton, Paul and BLM all refer to the overcrowding in our prisons, mostly from drug offenses.

    Is it only for possession, or for intent to sell.

    And are that many incarcerated for marijuana, or is it cocaine and heroin?

    Would like to see more specifics on decriminalization, what charges, and what drugs are they (candidates and BLM) referring to.

    Parent

    The question of what to do (none / 0) (#87)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:31:05 PM EST
    about people already in prison is much stickier.

    My hunch is the majority are in distribution for drugs harder than pot, but no, I don't have statistics.

    Where in the distribution chain they are matters.  How they got there matters.  Whether there was violence involved matters.  Frankly, and this is one of the heartbreaking aspects, the fact that many of them may be worse criminals after significant jail time matters.

    I think that's a significantly different and harder question than what to do about future drug use.  And it's one that I don't really have the answers for, and I'd be open to hearing any kind of ideas.  But I think we have to start with the future, which is something we have more control over.  

    If we stop increasing the number of people going to prison that should help, to some extent, those that are already there.  But you bring up some very valid questions.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#90)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:44:42 PM EST
    My hunch is the majority are in distribution for drugs harder than pot, but no, I don't have statistics.

    Is my hunch also, but also , without statistics.

    So, if (most, many, some) (take your pick)  believe dealers of cocaine , heroin, should be incarcerated, how much does it actually reduce the numbers going to prison?

    Or, to get the results desired, of lowering our prison population, do we tolerate dealers of hard drugs, in limited quantities?

    I would just love to hear more specifics from all pushing this platform, it is a worth while topic.

    Parent

    Well it would (none / 0) (#134)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:45:07 PM EST
    Introduce significant competition.  It won't eliminate the black market entirely but it certainly limits the customer base and therefore money that can be made.  Which limits the number of people in the distribution chain, takes power away and limits the reward.

    There's still an underground market for booze, for example, but the violence certainly seems to have dissipated after Prohibition ended.

    Parent

    As long as the price is $300+ an ounce (none / 0) (#145)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:18:32 PM EST
    legal or not, there will be a black market.  Pot's only a plant.  Most of are not so disconnected from the natural world that we can't figure out how to grow a plant.

    Parent
    You are allowed (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:23:06 PM EST
    To grow it for your own use where it's legal.  

    As far as 300 an oz that's about the average price everywhere and has been for a while.

    There cheaper and there's better but that's average.

    Parent

    Age... (none / 0) (#76)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:18:32 AM EST
    ...and hours of operation are the two big reasons the blackmarket will always exist.

    Decriminalization won't change that since the entire distribution chain will still be illegal.  The good thing it would do is eliminate the incentive for users to give-it-up, which in my experience is almost always how a dealer gets busted.

    It also doesn't help addicts because they are usually purchasing more than the legal amount every day.  The places that have decriminalized have done it for recreational users, not all users IMO.

    Parent

    I would not make pot (none / 0) (#105)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:00:09 PM EST
    totally legal....If you make it legal, then you cannot control advertising.....and use in public becomes harder to regulate....

    But I would never send anyone to jail for pot....

    Parent

    Good Gravy... (none / 0) (#71)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:01:47 AM EST
    ...I know from personal experience that this is not a good idea.  I grew up in the 'just say no' era, the beginning where they wanted kids to report parents, relatives to report relatives, the neighbors, and anyone who looked like they might do drugs.

    After getting busted with weed, the concerned folks convinced my parents that rehab was the only way to cure my 'problem', which was getting high about four times a week.  So I spent 10 days in adult rehab my senior year, which was actually pretty awesome.  My physics lab partner, and future close friend, was the guy who delivered our meals, which we had menus to choose from.  He hooked me up, and I ate better there than home, plus there is absolutely nothing to do, except smoke cigs and watch TV, which for a highschooler was pretty cool, school just wiped that period off, my grades were unaffected.  10 days is the time it takes for all the physiological tests to come back and declare I had no problem.  It was my first parent free vacation.

    At rehab I met several adults who I later hung out with, people a year or two older who were court ordered.  Talk about a mistake, taking a kid and putting him in with adults.  After that I declared to my parents that they can suck it, and from that point on I more of less emancipated myself, not legally, but in our home I was a freeman, declaring the experts declared I had no problem.  It's the point in time I started openly smoking at home, really, when I started smoking.  Before it was here and there, but at rehab everyone seriously smoked.  

    Keep in mind this is white bread rehab, at the world famous Marshfield clinic, where no one was there for hard drugs, some court ordered young people, but for the most part middle aged pill poppers who had families, people who wanted to quit, but had not ruined their lives.  No crack heads or heroin junkies, just first world rehab folks who couldn't kick the pills their doctors were subscribing.  Not that it isn't serious, but they weren't committing crimes to get the goods.

    When decisions are made in regard to drugs and youth, to say they always error on the side of caution would be a huge understatement.  I don't know the answers, but I know that school nurses aren't the people who should be determining who is at risk of an infection much less a serious problem.  I read this as diverting parental responsibility to the school that will operate under the popular notion of better safe than sorry.

    My experience only emboldened me towards my parents and to be perfectly honest, connected me up with folks who I had no business hanging out with.  While I never became an addict, I certainly stepped it up a notch.

    But the worse part about all of it was the reputation I got, which I tried not to care about, but when you go to rehab, no one is buying you don't have a problem.  And while friends didn't care, just the opposite, but I was treated differently and that is not healthy for any kid to be treated like an addict by teachers and administrators and even parents.  You can never shake that label, and no one wants you hanging around their kid.  When in fact experts had declared I should have never been admitted, that the decision was just a waste of resources.  That is in part why I felt the need to lash-out towards my parents, they bought into the whole Reagan BS and I suffered for their stupidity, so in my teenager angst thinking, they suffered for being duped into letting others decide how to best handle a little weed discovery.  Keep in mind the police were not part of this equation.

    FWIW, I haven't smoked cigs for probably two decades.

    Parent

    I can certainly see your point of view (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    But I think there are a couple key differences.

    #1 - from the article "and to try to move them in a way that they will want to go into treatment. You can't force them"

    They even specifically mentioned not telling parents right away.

    #2 - from your post "No crack heads or heroin junkies, just first world rehab folks who couldn't kick the pills their doctors were subscribing."

    This is about heroin, not a little weed.

    I think the risks from your post are all there, and that's why it's uncertain whether it will pass.  But I also think you're not giving people quite enough credit, this isn't the Reagan era anymore.  Personally, I'd like to hear more about the specifics of the program, how it would be implemented and who would be implementing it.

    Maybe it is diverting parental responsibility, or maybe it's using every tool at your disposal.  I've seen it happen close up where the parents were just clueless, well intentioned, but clueless.  It never occurred to them that their son would start using heroin, that's not the environment or background they were familiar with.  But in retrospect, so many signs were there, and we were all enablers in a way.

    Parent

    Good Points... (none / 0) (#97)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:33:11 PM EST
    ...but the idea of school intervention and letting kids choose is not inline with anything I know about today's school's and attitudes towards their students.

    Are they seriously suggesting adults who know a kid is using aren't going to get the parents involved ?  Behind the silliness of that, there are serious legal and financial ramifications of not informing parents about their child's drug use.

    I trust school administrators to do the right and compassionate thing about as much as I trust police to do it, which is to say I don't trust them one bit, and giving them new powers IMO is only going to create more problems, especially for the less than stellar students who if using, probably already not well liked by administrators.

    Now keep in mind this is coming from someone in Houston, who knows nothing about heroin, never tried it, and have never been around it, all in a city where it's not a problem.

    Note:  Weed was the scourge of the 80's that threatened the fabric of society.  And while it's no heroin, the push to eradicate was infinitely stronger than the one to get ride of heroin today.  Obviously, today we know weed is, more or less, harmless, but back in the 80's it could kill you, even if used one time, make you a junkie, and was without a doubt, going to lead to bigger and better drugs.  All complete BS of course, but that's almost 30 years ago.  I just wanted to make that clear and even though it's nothing compared to heroin, I thing the over-reaction way over the top and certainly the level of scariness was worse than what we see today with any drug.

    Parent

    FWIW (none / 0) (#103)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:53:50 PM EST
    we have a police department in the state that has already decided to "do the right thing".

    I will admit, that with a sister who is currently a Vice Principal and was a Dean of Discipline for a while at a local school I have a different view of administrators that may or may not be applicable to the majority.  We always joke (it's not that much of a joke) that one of the reasons she is good at her job is that she was also a huge troublemaker when she was younger.  No doubt that there are less than stellar ones, and this would give them power too.

    Regarding parents - I think some of the idea is that they aren't drug testing and so they have nothing concrete that they have to tell them?  Maybe?  I dunno.  I think that's a very good question.  They do seem to have permission slips of some kind for kids involved in the program where parents opt-out, I'm not sure if the language of that could mitigate some of the legal concerns or not.

    On your other points I'll also concede that the department of child services in this state doesn't have a great record of saving lives.  And no doubt they'd have to be involved in some way.

    I guess one of the differences between us is trusting the intentions and skill sets of the people involved.  But no doubt there could be some very bad unintended consequences and not everyone has good intentions/skills.

    Right now it's a pilot program in 10 places, and seems to have decent "reviews".  Perhaps it's best to leave it on a community-by-community basis rather than a blanket statewide program.

    Parent

    One of the things we don't have (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:46:51 PM EST
    is the underlying support structure to accommodate a treatment model; it's hard to get into treatment programs, social services personnel are already carrying caseloads that are impossible to keep up with.

    And I think it has to start there.  And it has to start now.

    And for some period of time, you're going to have a situation where the cost of incarceration is going to overlap with the cost of treatment, but I don't think you can just change the drug laws and not already have in place a means to divert people into treatment if they need it.

    Look at how poorly we are handling treatment for the mentally ill.  How many times have we read that someone's parents or spouse or even the person him- or herself sought treatment, and couldn't find space in a program, and tragedy followed?

    Why is there such an epidemic of opiate addiction?  Other than the fact that it's apparently pretty cheap and easy to get the drugs.  What is it that people using them are looking for?  

    If you talk to addicts, whether it's alcohol or other drugs, what you tend to hear is that people use to deaden their emotional pain, they use to get them out of themselves and comfortable in social situations, they use to feel something.

    Which tells me that people aren't very good at handling their emotions.  They look around, and at every turn, see images, and get messages that they're supposed to be happy.  Things are supposed to make them happy.  Money is supposed to make them happy.  We've become a nation of people who don't look inside ourselves much, and constantly seek the next "thing" that's going to make us feel good.

    Are we, as parents, not teaching our kids the skills to understand and deal with their own feelings?  Are we so absorbed in electronics that we've lost touch with our inner selves?

    I know that sounds kind of airy-fairy, but I really do believe that people don't have a very good grip on how or what they feel, are kind of afraid to confront their fears and feelings, and for some of them, drugs and alcohol come into play.

    Parent

    I Think... (none / 0) (#117)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:14:58 PM EST
    ....you missed the ship a bit, I think a lot of people who use hard drugs have emotional scars that can't be healed.  And I while I don't think you meant to say 'people aren't very good at handling their emotions' in the way it reads, which seems to be that all addicts are fixable.  

    I don't believe that for a minute, when I read about the horrors some people endure, especially children, there is literally no emotional support that can fix the pain they have.  How exactly do you fix a child who has been mentally, physically, and sexually abused for most of their childhood ?  Are there are a lot of them, maybe not all three, but who are abused in some way for most of their childhoods.

    Addicts were around long before electronic devises.  Obviously parents are the key for most, but most times these issues aren't known until it's too late.  Like the poor little monkey in psychology class who would rather curl up to a soft doll that a wire frame, kids need love, but that is simply not an option many have.

    I agree with what you said, but I too it as we can repair them easily, and there are so many that the resources would basically be nearly infinite.  By resources I mean human resources, not cash.  A kid doesn't shoot up heroin because mom's on her iPhone.  I know that isn't what you meant, but the underlying cause IMO isn't not being able to handle emotions, it's numbing the deep and true pain of bad deeds.  Which generally starts out as being done to them and advances to do to others.

    Again, just my opinion.

    Parent

    Maybe this got lost: (none / 0) (#122)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:39:00 PM EST
    If you talk to addicts, whether it's alcohol or other drugs, what you tend to hear is that people use to deaden their emotional pain, they use to get them out of themselves and comfortable in social situations, they use to feel something.

    Maybe I wrote too much, as usual, but as someone who has or had family members with substance abuse issues, I do know a thing or two.

    Parent

    Agree (none / 0) (#126)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:00:16 PM EST
    but I really do believe that people don't have a very good grip on how or what they feel, are kind of afraid to confront their fears and feelings, and for some of them, drugs and alcohol come into play.

    And the other group would be those genetically predisposed, and many fall into both groups.

    There are treatment centers, at least in NY, and many go to them as "mandated" patients. They have a choice, go to jail for drug possession, or sales of small quantities, or a DWI,  or go to the rehab center.

    And yes, they fill up quickly. If the person has no insurance, it is picked up by Medicaid.

    Approximately 80% of the patients in these facilities (going back 15 years) are mandated, and only 30% actually succeed in kicking their substance abuse habit.

    Parent

    My kid smoked pot in HS (none / 0) (#86)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:23:43 PM EST
    Graduated with a 4.0, and four years later from college with honors, after eight semesters on the Dean's List.

    Parent
    Don't you love it when (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:12:39 PM EST
    People who have no experience with and no knowledge of a subject suddenly have all the answers.

    Parent
    My cousin smoked pot in HS, ... (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:59:53 PM EST
    ... soon graduated to alcohol, and then dropped out in the 11th grade. He's since earned his GED, and even got an Associate's degree in electronics, but sad to say, he's still struggling mightily with alcoholism.

    Suffice to say, some people can party all night long and yet never miss a day of work (or school / baseball practice, in my own case), while there are others like my young cousin who can barely function emotionally even while sober, and shouldn't go anywhere near a bong, bottle or bar.

    Obviously, our personal anecdotes -- while certainly interesting -- don't necessarily help everyone else to grasp and understand the long-term consequences of our country's present drug and alcohol policies, which tend to criminalize abuse and marginalize the addict.

    But what those same across-the-board anecdotes can tell us in the aggregate, is that a one-size-fits-all approach to the issue of alcohol and drug use is never going to work, because the  circumstances of various individuals often defy such simple classifications.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I heard a rumor that a couple of U.S. presidents (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:13:54 PM EST
    survived their dalliance with the evil herb.

    Parent
    Head...meet desk: (none / 0) (#77)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:19:23 AM EST
    Kim Davis is getting the "Cost of Discipleship" award at the Values Voters Summit that starts today.

    Tony Perkins' conservative Family Research Council just announced plans to honor Kentucky clerk Kim Davis with a leadership award at its upcoming Value Voters summit featuring a majority of Republican presidential candidates.

    [...]

    But most importantly, nearly every Republican presidential candidate, including Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, Ted Cruz, Scott Walker, Lindsey Graham, Ben Carson, Rand Paul, Rick Santorum, Bobby Jindal and Mike Huckabee, is scheduled to attend the summit. Jeb Bush, however, won't be attending.

    Donald Trump will also be there.

    Yeesh.

    Jubilant reaction by (none / 0) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 11:49:18 AM EST
    Summit Values on the announcement of Speaker Boehner's resignation.  This whole Republican mess will end in tears.  

    Parent
    Looking forward to it (none / 0) (#94)
    by shoephone on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:12:24 PM EST
    These extremists are making a 2016 Democratic presidential win a certainty.

    Parent
    Death and Taxes (none / 0) (#96)
    by CST on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:19:02 PM EST
    My friend.

    But I certainly hope so.

    Parent

    How long will the downward spiral take? (none / 0) (#112)
    by christinep on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:52:41 PM EST
    I wonder, KeysDan & others, how the stages to come will play out? Resignation, followed by replacement, followed by sooner or later pressure on the replacement? Another round with more demands from the furthest right reps?  Any learning or more hysteria?

    Boehner appears to have been the one with the experience to hold the lid on?  Maybe, with the culmination of his career being the appearance of the Pope--after all these years of asking and after his 25 years in the House--it made a certain amount of existential sense for Boehner to resign?  Worth considering. Well, one wonders about the projected "deluge" to come in this latest Repub division?  

    Parent

    People have been saying for a while (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:24:27 PM EST
    That a split was coming in the Republican Party.  I'm one f those people.  

    I have mentioned that I didn't think the base would accept establishment presidential pick for the last three cycles starting with McCain.  

    I think we have arrived .  They will not accept Jeb.  If he is somehow shoehorned into the spot there will be a revolt.  A third party perhaps or some other kind if revolt.

    It could play out at the convention.  A split is coming between those who want purity and theocracy and those who want to win.   And really think that's the only difference.  They all want the same thing.  It just that some are smart enough to know they can't win that way.

    That said,  wouldn't read t much into Boehner.  He has been the canary in the coal mine fir a long time.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#121)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:36:20 PM EST
    They DID vote for McCain. (74% of white Evangelicals).

    And you said for months and months that Romney wouldn't be the nominee because they would never nominate a Mormon. (79% of white Evangelicals voted for him).

    Bush won 79% of the white Evangelicals vote in 2004 and 68% in 2000.

    Even in midterms, their number has been static.

    Parent

    And they lost (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:46:15 PM EST
    And they will continue to lose as long as Ted Cruz and his ilk are the face of the Republican Party.

    And the are the face.  It doesn't matter wh the nominee is people are smart enough to know what the party is about.  And this year thanks to Donald they will know in spades.

    The party was smart enough to know this at one point.

    Remember the "autopsy"?

    You don't autopsy something alive.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#128)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    been my thinking also, but it's sure been a long time coming.

    It's long been obvious that the factions of the Republican literally hate each other, yet they always seem to pull together against the (almost) literally demonized Democrats.

    That being said the rubes do seem exceptionally restless this cycle and the monkeyhouse caucus is rapidly devolving to less then primate status.  

    Parent

    How long will the downward spiral take? (none / 0) (#131)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:23:09 PM EST
    I think it depends on what depths you want to plumb. The House Speakership has been in a nosedive since Gingrich, then Livingston, Coach Hastert, and John Boehner.

      Boehner has crashed, taking the quitting road of that governor from Alaska. The new Republican Speaker may be someone like Kevin McCarthy, a guy more determined to get the job than Boehner was to keep his.

     But,a McCarthy is still faced with the same dilemna--how to govern without compromise and how to satisfy the endless craving for more and more red meat.

     The House Republicans are yearning for a Louie Gohmert.  They do not want anyone who will not cast aspersions on the nation's asparagus. Or, get rid of it.  The reality of the House Republican make-up is that it is comprised of angry and intolerant ignoramuses--reflecting wide swatches of their constituents.

     Their goal is not good government, but no government.  A velvet coup d'etat.  Who can lead that mess?  It will get a lot worse before it gets as "good" as it is now. The situation earns some good jokes, but the situation is not funny.

    Parent

    It might get accelerated (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:58:30 PM EST
    If as some are urging, Boehner try's to pass immigration reform before leaving.    It's been known for a long time that passed by the senate would pass the house of allowed a vote.

    The might want to put bay on the celebrations a bit unless they want a big f@ck you on the way out the door.

    Boehner is on face the nation on Sunday.  (I think) big sunday line up so far.  Including Hillary.

    Parent

    Also (none / 0) (#137)
    by christinep on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:59:58 PM EST
    It wouldn't surprise me if the "news" media pushed back or scrutinized or questioned the Repubs in the House at more than a whisper now that Boehner is moving out.  The reason I say that: My speculation & surmise that the established relations they undoubtedly had with Boehner--via backdoor chats, drinks at the bar, buddy talk, and cajoling info swaps--are not there with most of the others in the Repub delegation. My initial speculation stems from another speculation that Boehner's gift for gab/groups/old boy stuff was part of the fabric of the Hill & the press that covered it.  Source, source, who's got the source?

    With Boehner's absence, relationships on the Hill will alter vis-à-vis reporters--imo--because new sources and go-to people are needed.  Yet, that takes a civility in personal exchanges ... so, how are the newbie Repub House zealots? The definition of personable, the definition of those that can talk reaching out & compromise? Yea, sure :)

    In my observation, personal relationships count in government ... very much so with the news media.

    Parent

    The National Review has gone downhill (none / 0) (#83)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:14:28 PM EST
    even for the National Review..

    And Buckley is turning over in his musty, gothic crypt..

    Rich Lowry, who obviously has major 'issues' with assertive women, said Fiorina "castrated" Donald in the last debate..

    So (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:05:00 PM EST
    I Had Look... (none / 0) (#130)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 04:17:37 PM EST
    History Of Discovery and Naming

    According to Aboriginal Dreamtime legend, the first platypus was born after an attractive young female duck mated with a lonely and persuasive water-rat. The duck's offspring had their mother's bill and webbed feet and their father's legs and handsome brown fur.

    Early written records suggest that indigenous people were aware that the platypus was both egg-laying and venomous facts that were only confirmed by European scientists after many decades of study. Traditional names for the species included "mallangong" and "tambreet" in New South Wales. Among the Wurundjeri people (who occupied much of Victoria) the name for the platypus was dulaiwarrung. Platypuses were hunted for food in the water using long spears, but the meat appears not to have been highly prized.

    After the British colony in Australia was founded in 1788, the strange appearance of the platypus soon fascinated the new arrivals. Early colonists called the platypus a "water mole" or a duckbill.



    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:04:04 PM EST
    Best Pope in NY line today

    "Invitations to this mass were coveted by NY Catholics "

    That was Brian Williams btw (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 05:09:19 PM EST
    Who's play by play of this spectacle has only seen its equal in the very best golf tourneys.

    Parent
    Krugman on JEB's not so fabulous timing (none / 0) (#158)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:33:36 PM EST
    Dewey, Cheatem' and Howe.

    A case in point: This week Jeb Bush, who has an uncanny talent for bad timing, chose to publish an op-ed article in The Wall Street Journal denouncing the Obama administration for issuing "a flood of creativity-crushing and job-killing rules." Never mind his misuse of cherry-picked statistics, or the fact that private-sector employment has grown much faster under President Obama's "job killing" policies than it did under Mr. Bush's brother's administration.