Trump to Unveil New Tax Plan, Falls in Poll

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2016
Posted on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:13:02 PM EST
Tags: Donald Trump (all tags)

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Donald Trump will unveil a new tax plan tomorrow. Tonight he is on 60 Minutes. (no link due to autoplay video.) And in a new NBC-WSJ poll, he's fallen to only one point above Ben Carson.

Are his days numbered? Bill Clinton doesn't think so.

I'm surprised he's lasted this long, but I still don't believe he'll end up as the nominee.

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Trump to Unveil New Tax Plan, Falls in Poll | 79 comments (79 topical)

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It is hard to believe Donald could be it (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:21:38 PM EST

Coukd be the nominee.

The problem with hm not being the nominee is

Who is?

Jeb? No. I really really don't think so.

Carly? No.

Carson? Hell no.

Marco? Don think so.

I just don't see who takes it from him.

He could lose it. But I don't see any of the others winning it.

Adding (none / 0) (#2)
by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:24:10 PM EST

I really think it could go right to the convention.

Parent

That's kind of what I'm thinking (5.00 / 2) (#33)
by Zorba on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:04:32 PM EST

None of the candidates win a majority of the primaries, and we segue into a brokered Republican Convention.
In which case, all bets are off. In a brokered convention, the "powers that be" in the GOP would have more leverage to manipulate things in back-room deals and horse-trading and such.
In which case, oh, he!!, they could wind up with someone like Kasich, a dull but more "mainstream" Republican, as the nominee, now that Jeb's star seems to have fallen so far.
Who knows? Get the popcorn ready, it could be very entertaining. In a "watching a train wreck happening" kind of way.

Parent

Is Kasich even going to win any (5.00 / 2) (#34)
by Anne on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:12:00 PM EST

primaries?

I think he's polling in single digits, so I just can't imagine anyone will see him as a viable alternative to any of the outsiders.

I think Rubio's going to be the last one standing.

Parent

: It could very well (none / 0) (#37)
by Zorba on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:16:25 PM EST

be Rubio, too.
If it's a brokered convention, all bets are off. Except, in that case, I seriously doubt that it would be Trump, Fiorina, or Carson.
Got your popcorn ready?

Parent
: Ditto (none / 0) (#61)
by shoephone on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:54:42 PM EST

It will likely be Babyface Rubio.

Parent

I agree with Steve Nocera (none / 0) (#62)
by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 08:47:04 AM EST

Trump isn't really in it to be president.

Like almost everything else about the Trump campaign, his tax plan is hard to take seriously. (To be fair, most of the tax plans put forth by his Republican rivals are hard to take seriously.) During the "60 Minutes" interview, Trump told Pelley that he would force the Chinese to "do something" about North Korea's nuclear program -- while also preventing them from devaluing their currency! -- that he would get rid of Obamacare -- while instituting universal coverage! -- and that he was on more magazine covers than "almost any supermodel."
I wonder, in fact, whether even now Trump is a serious candidate, or whether this is all a giant publicity ploy. Once a real developer, Trump is largely a licenser today; the more famous he becomes, the more he can charge to slap his name on buildings or perfume or men's suits.
I'm not alone in wondering this, of course. Several Republican consultants I spoke to openly questioned whether Trump is in it for the long haul. "You would see him spending a lot more money if he were putting together a true national infrastructure," said Rick Wilson, a Republican strategist.
There's one other thing. All his life, Trump has had a deep need to beperceived as a "winner." He always has to be perceived coming out on top. That's why, ultimately, I don't think he'll ever put himself at the mercy of actual voters in a primary. To do so is to risk losing. And everyone will know it.
He'll be out before Iowa. You read it here first.

Parent

He will not be out (none / 0) (#63)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 09:08:38 AM EST

Before Iowa. You read it here first.

Btw
Whoever that is has to be kidding with the you read it here first thing. This pearl of conventional wisdom has been clutched by every knuckle head with a keyboard since the day Trump declared.

I said it then and now. They don't get it. He does want to be president.

Parent

Nah (none / 0) (#67)
by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 03:21:12 PM EST

He'd have to be too restrained, both financially and in temperament. Sounding off crazy now when no one is actually voting is a helluva lot different than having to work with a Congress that hates you and running the country.

This is all one, big reality show in the making.

Parent

You have a real problem (none / 0) (#71)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 05:29:11 PM EST

With projecting your assumptions.

I never said he would be president. I said he wants to be president. This thing that this is just some lark to get attention is just silly. And getting sillier by the day. There are several candidate who are not working in organization. Trump is not one of them. He is doing everything a candidate dies in the early states.

As I said he will not be out by the first voting.

Parent

: Whether or not he drops out (none / 0) (#72)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 05:33:38 PM EST

After that if he is losing who the hell knows. Most people drop out if they are losing.
That not what you sad. You said he doesn't really want it and will be out before the voting starts. I say BS.

Parent

Interesting... (none / 0) (#70)
by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 05:04:48 PM EST

...since Matt Lauer asked him on the TV today if he would drop out if he keeps falling. After arguing that he isn't falling, he didn't mince words, he said he would.

I believe that he isn't interested in taking it to the wire, but the problem is he has to get beaten to leave, he won't bow out if he is leading IMO.

He might not want to be President, but it's not so bad that he would walk away thinking he could win.

Let's see how much of his own money he starts spending.

Parent

NYTimes today (none / 0) (#73)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 05:40:02 PM EST

Donald Trump Is Not
Going Anywhere

Parent

That one is a very long and well (none / 0) (#76)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 07:10:11 PM EST

Written piece. I think this is the money paragraphs

I initially doubted that he would even run. I assumed that his serial and public flirtations with the idea over several election cycles were just another facet of his existential publicity sustenance. I figured that even if Trump did run, his conspiracy-mongering, reality-show orientations and garish tabloid sensibilities would make him unacceptable to the polite company of American politics and mainstream media. It would render him a fringe player. So I decided not to write about him, and I felt proud and honorable about my decision.
--
It was at this point that I began to feel glad I decided to write about Trump, who seemed to have clearly seized on some profound exhaustion with our politics. There's very little difference between Trump when he's not running for president and Trump now that he is running for president, except that he makes more public appearances. Trump is the same boorish, brash and grandiose showman we've known across many realms. And for some reason, that character has proved an incendiary match with this political moment. It was a repeat of what I saw that night of the first debate, when the whole room abandoned the professional campaign surrogates in favor of the blazing chaos of Trump himself. Was Trump the logical byproduct of a cancerous system in which American democracy has mutated into a gold rush of cheap celebrity, wealth creation and narcissistic branding madness? Or has he merely wielded the tools of this transformation -- his money, celebrity and dominance of the media -- against the forces that have engend

Parent

: Oops (none / 0) (#77)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 07:13:40 PM EST

Last line

his money, celebrity and dominance of the media -- against the forces that have engendered this disgust in the system to begin with?

Parent

Ha (none / 0) (#74)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 06:31:24 PM EST

Just reading that thing. It's so full of it I can't stand it
Take this-

said Rick Wilson, a Republican strategist.

Riiiiight
Rick Wilson is just some random republican strategist. Try googling Rick Wilson. The top choices are all "Rick Wilson-Donald Trump"

Like this

Meet Rick Wilson, Trump's hardcore hater.

I have no idea if Trump will eventually drop out. If he starts losing he probably will. But it will be because he is losing primaries. But that article is FOS.

you read it first here.

Pffft

Parent

: BUT (none / 0) (#75)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 06:33:18 PM EST

Tweety and Ron Reagan (who people keep asking for an opinion fir reasons I do not understand) completely agree with YOU

Parent

While I am Batting... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:14:34 PM EST

...pretty bad in the prediction arena, I can't see how it doesn't. The lunatics aren't going to join the moderates, and vice-versa, Boehner resigning is a symptom of the disease that is going to play out in a big way.

Right now there are two parties with separate agendas posing as one party in order to win elections, but the divisions keep getting deeper and at some point, they have to split or end up with people a whole lot of republicans dislike, like Boehner.

It's fun watching them eat their own, but damn, I think everyone is sick of the House and how they have unrealistic expectations. 55 votes to repeal legislation that has zero chance of being repealed, legislation the highest court in the land upheld.

It's Homer Simpson and the light socket, over and over again expecting he won't get shocked this time. By definition, at least Einstein's, these people are insane. And the worse part, this is exactly what their constituents want them to do.

Parent

Hard to believe (none / 0) (#5)
by Repack Rider on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:54:06 PM EST

...isn't it?

Can you imagine Fiorina or Carson on the national stage, under the lights, answering questions about, well, anything? Trump will answer, he just won't have a clue about what he's saying, it will backfire and result in a bizarre clarification. Trump is a powder keg of oversensitive short-tempered nastygrams, off on a twitter rant after any form of criticism. It's not like he has someone on the staff who might suggest that this isn't presidential.

The three front runners have among them a total of one losing political campaign. Fiorina is famous for her inept campaign for the senate seat from California, featuring the most ridiculous TV ad ever, the Demon Sheep.

These people have never been anything but petty dictators in their own worlds, unused to having any of their decisions questioned. There won't be enough popcorn when they have to debate a Democrat.

Parent

Carly Fiorina has no business ... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 04:29:53 AM EST

... ever being in charge again of anything. Her tenure as CEO of Hewlett Packard was so bad that the company's shares on Wall Street lost over half their value. The same day that H-P announced her firing, investors' giddy response to the news drove the company's share price up by seven percent.

Parent

Really?? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:09:11 AM EST

Bewteen March of 2000 and March of 2001 the NASDAQ lost half of its value.

Were all the CEO's fired??

The world is full of failures who later became great.

Including one named Lincoln.

1831 - Lost his job
1832 - Defeated in run for Illinois State Legislature
1833 - Failed in business
1834 - Elected to Illinois State Legislature (success)
1835 - Sweetheart died
1836 - Had nervous breakdown
1838 - Defeated in run for Illinois House Speaker
1843 - Defeated in run for nomination for U.S. Congress
1846 - Elected to Congress (success)
1848 - Lost re-nomination
1849 - Rejected for land officer position
1854 - Defeated in run for U.S. Senate
1856 - Defeated in run for nomination for Vice President
1858 - Again defeated in run for U.S. Senate
1860 - Elected President (success)

Parent

Then why has she never been (5.00 / 3) (#19)
by Anne on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:23:10 AM EST

offered another position running another company?

Maybe Jeffrey Sonnenfeld can explain it to you.

Parent

Of (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:56:20 AM EST

course many, many people have rebounded from failure, giving rise to that old saw "if at first you don't succeed, try and try again", very few people ever succeed at the first try at anything but the key is that most of them acknowledge and learn from their failures, Carly will not even acknowledge that her HP tenure was a failure much less take any kin of lesson from it.

Note your dates here, the NASDAQ crash and tech bubble burst long before she made the disastrous merger with Compaq in 2002.

Parent

et al (5.00 / 1) (#43)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:48:08 PM EST

anne, how do you know she hasn't??

FlJoe, can you give me a link, or any proof, that Lincoln did what you claim?

For that matter, can you show me anything that shows that Carly hasn't learned from her experience??

Re NASDAQ, my point was simple. Market's crash. Sometimes companies get bought. Others are wounded. Some CEO's get fired. Some don't. I realize you want to attack her. That's politics.

Parent

: I will (none / 0) (#55)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 05:34:28 PM EST

leave this to the good Zimmerman,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all

Parent

Define "failure"... (none / 0) (#39)
by kdog on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:30:59 PM EST

Ol' Sour Puss left HP in shambles with 21 million in cash and 19 million in stock & pension benefits wrapped in her golden parachute...any grifter would consider that an epic success of a score, and that's what Ol' Sour Puss is...a grifter. A thief.

Parent

Anytime a Partisan Has to go Back... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:44:01 PM EST

...to the 1800's to find examples about modern day issues, they are spewing some serious BS.

But since you are using her main talking point, I will go with the much better and blatantly more obvious, why hasn't the CEO genius had a job offer in a decade.

Because she wants to work twice as hard for 1/100th the pay ?
Because she is loves public office so much that she has forgot to vote in almost every election ?
Because she is a disaster and couldn't even find one sucker to give her a job, even though now, 11% of republicans will give her one ?

The answer is obvious unless you have a faulty brain.

She is a politician because no one will give her a real job and so far she is 0-1 at being a politician, and soon enough 0-2. But please Jim, keep telling us how a failure is not really a failure, and when that fails, blame Obama.

Parent

Please quit making things up (none / 0) (#45)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:58:29 PM EST

But please Jim, keep telling us how a failure is not really a failure,

Never said that and the bit about Lincoln is as correct today as it was then.

And you have no idea as to what she has, or has not, been offered. Such things are mostly Top Secret..

......Wait, we will probably find'em in Hillary's emails.

lol

Look, she made a very controversial merger of two competitors. Having been through two of those I know how bitter they are and how difficult. She has acknowledged mistakes. Among them is not immediately firing the managers who didn't buy in. Maybe she will do that when she becomes Prez.

Parent

Yes, Jim... (none / 0) (#48)
by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 03:25:36 PM EST

...to hell with Wall Street, which you love one day and hate the next, republicans are certainly capable of finding a diamond in the rough. It's not like all of GWB's business failures were indicative of his presidency...

I have been through more mergers, split-offs, reorgs, and every variation know to business and none of them resulted in catastrophe because our management team is not the hack squad. They are done for one purpose, to gain/create equity, when they fail to do that they are considered failures. You are suggesting no one in Fiorina's merger team bothered to with any sort of projection models, which only proves your lack of business sophistication.

This notion that a republican created recession is blame is quite funny on so many levels. But why stop a great talking point, "It's GWB's fault Fiorina isn't seen as the CEO genius she is, if he hadn't drove the economy off a cliff, Fiorina would be a shoe-in for president..."

Not sure why I am talking you out of that hilarious talking point. Probably because it Fiorina's talking point thwqt you are passing off as yours.
-----------------

Speaking of, gas is at $2/gal which you have said at least 1000 times means the economy is great shape. After all, you couldn't stop telling everyone how Obama was to blame for $4/gal gasoline, so I will assume when it's $2/gal Obama is now your hero, or was all that gas talk more words of wisdom from someone with no clue ?

Parent

No, you haven't (1.00 / 2) (#53)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 05:07:00 PM EST

I have been through more mergers, split-offs, reorgs, and every variation know to business and none of them resulted in catastrophe because our management team is not the hack squad.

You over reach and make wild claims, as usual. I have never stated I "love Wall St." Why do you make these claims that everyone knows is untrue??

And I suggested nothing. Carly has stated that she should have fired managers who resisted the changes caused by the merger and that was a mistake. Which it was. And I say that your beloved management team would have, and if I can believe your claim, have probably done so.

And I never said

gas is at $2/gal which you have said at least 1000 times means the economy is great shape.

Based on this you obviously believe that the sun comes up because the rooster crows.

Now pay attention. I have long stated that cheap energy will improve the economy. The question now is this. How long will the current (around) $2.00 gas remain? Sen Corker already wants a gas tax increase... As for Obama, he said he had no problem with high prices and one of the first things he did was remove the changes that Bush had put in place and the prices see sawed back and forth and the economy remains flat, at best. (Remember that the workforce participation rate is at Jimmy Cater levels.)

Parent

That Was Funny... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 09:11:19 AM EST

...and I mean seriously funny.

I think all the regulars know where you stand on gasoline and Obama.

Parent

: The funny part is you making a claim (none / 0) (#68)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 04:13:16 PM EST

that a good economy causes gasoline prices to be low.
As I said, you must think the sun comes up because the rooster crows.

Parent

Right... (none / 0) (#50)
by sj on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 03:57:16 PM EST

Because Fiorina is Just. Like. Abraham. Lincoln.

oy

Parent

A few years ago some genius (none / 0) (#65)
by jondee on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 11:36:59 AM EST

at some right-wing think tank thought it would be a great talking point to conflate any prominent modern day Republican with Abraham Lincoln because, after all, Abraham Lincoln was a Republican wasn't he?

Now it's fair game for any dittohead to not bat an eyelash about mentioning a Dubya, a Fiorina, a Carson, or a Trump in the same sentence as Lincoln.

Parent

: Your ability to make things up is amusing (1.00 / 1) (#69)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 04:17:33 PM EST

The point is that many successful people have failures. Some multiple failures.
Of course if you are Hillary you can make a cool $100K on pork bellies and never blink an eye....especially if you have the broker in your pocket.
lol

Parent

It is (none / 0) (#6)
by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 08:08:58 PM EST

Trump is right now currently in the middle of another snit with FOX news.

LINKIE

Parent

Bill Clinton says he don't (none / 0) (#3)
by oculus on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:42:01 PM EST

know from nothing and then analyzes the race.

If you believe Bubba don't know from nothin (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 27, 2015 at 07:43:30 PM EST

You don't know from nothin.

Parent

You ignored the phrase (5.00 / 2) (#8)
by oculus on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 06:25:43 AM EST

"Bill Clinton says...."

Parent

Sound like a Yogi-ism... (none / 0) (#30)
by fishcamp on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:57:41 AM EST

Parent

: Nah... (none / 0) (#40)
by kdog on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:34:45 PM EST

if Bill ever uttered a Yogi-ism, it would have to be "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Parent

I took from it that he isn't confident in (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 12:25:17 PM EST

His analysis. He understands some things going on, but no longer feels like he has the accurate overview that he once had.

He almost seemed delighted in how Fubar everything Trump touches is, and how unexplainable/absurd it is that Trump is the leader. I think it was what he always wanted for the Republican party after what they put his Presidency through. I noticed he didn't speak of Trumps inevitable face plant like many of us do. He seemed to think Trump had plenty of steam to move forward with. He reminded me of some of the researchers we have met with Josh. Excited to study this.

Parent

Trump's moment was August (none / 0) (#9)
by scribe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 08:57:50 AM EST

Also known for generations, in the news biz, as "The Silly Season". He and the season fit each other.

Now that vacations are over, people are less in need of entertainment and the fever heat of summer less affecting the average voter's brains, he will fade. He's done some damage by pushing the Rethugs farther to the Right. At the same time, he's also helped a bit by knocking the Secessionist ex-Texas governor (whose name I forgot already) and the Koch-owned dolt Walker out of the race.

Oh, right. Rick Perry.

A few more will find their funding drying up and their campaigns correspondingly withering on the vine.

I truly don't (none / 0) (#10)
by lentinel on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:11:43 AM EST

understand why so many are in a state of uproar about Trump - as opposed to any of the others.

Florina is so far to the right of Trump - she disappears from the radar.

Cruz is genuinely scary.

Carson -- he just sounds like an idiot.
I have known some stupid doctors - but he is lowering the bar.

Rubio?

Jeb? Jeb? A horror story.

You get my point.

They all seem, with the exception of Rand Paul, to be to the right of Trump.

So why the flap over Trump?

Who among those pips would anyone prefer?

It just feels as if there is an attempt to manipulate us -- as if we should feel better if Trump drops out, and we're left with one of those other dangerous nuts, and we're supposed to feel relieved?

I think people are truly afraid of him because (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:20:06 AM EST

He is not part of the current Ouroboros political system of mutual back scratching. His followers are not following because of ideology. Another thing none of the chattering class understand how to deal with.
He is unpredictable. He is a loose cannon. He is financially obligated by and restrained by no one. He says what he thinks. What he really thinks. You may hate what he thinks but personally I find it refreshingly honest at least.
All reasons part of me is curious to see just what might happen if he ever, God forbid, got power.

He is an honest to god outsider. Beholden to no party and no ideology. This terrifies the ruling class. And delights his supporters.

I can't stop watching.

And btw, the "summers is over and so is he" thing? Utter hogwash.

Parent

I'm not afraid of him (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by ruffian on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:36:51 AM EST

He would get nothing accomplished. In many ways he is the best alternative, IF you think a GOP candidate will win.

He is just so obnoxious that the thought of being exposed to him for for years turns my stomach.

Parent

Actually I am quite sure he would resign (none / 0) (#27)
by ruffian on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:38:48 AM EST

before his term was complete, so his VP selection is really more worth watching than most.

Parent

: Amarosa (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by jbindc on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:45:19 AM EST

Parent

IMO (none / 0) (#29)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:56:56 AM EST

You should not underestimate anyone who has the masses behind him.

this tax plan

Could get him some masses.

Parent

Frank Rich, (none / 0) (#52)
by lentinel on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 05:02:08 PM EST

in an interview about a recent column, pointed out that when Hillary Clinton was doing a turn at an ice cream parlor in New Hampshire, and someone asked her what her favorite flavor was, she couldn't even give a unequivocal answer to that one.

So - If it came down to a contest between those two, I would be very circumspect about predicting an outcome.

When I hear Elizabeth Warren spelling out clearly and unambiguously what I want to hear from a democrat, (LINK), I wonder why it isn't being echoed by all democrats -- Sanders being the exception...

But I must admit that Warren's way of expressing herself gets right to my core.

Parent

I don't (none / 0) (#12)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:31:04 AM EST

think it's a right/left kind of thing, more of a dumb/dumber scenario.

Parent

What do you expect (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by Chuck0 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 12:38:49 PM EST

from an electorate that can't find Iraq on a map? Or Syria? Think their own guy is great but the rest of congress is a failure. Or can't name the three branches of government?

Parent

I hear this a lot (none / 0) (#13)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:38:28 AM EST

I like to ask, do know any Trump supporters?

I do. And I'm telling you they are not all idiots. It's real easy for us to think they are but the are not.

I have encountered people who I have in the past considered smart progressive informed people who are now die hard Trump supporters.

To dismiss all his supporters as stupid hicks is to miss the point of his appeal. Does he appeal to stupid hicks, yes he does. But I'm telling you they are not all stupid hicks. And the are not all republicans.

Parent

And the thing is (5.00 / 2) (#14)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:42:49 AM EST

I get it. I get the appeal. I would never vote for the man but I understand how completely disillusioned and disenfranchised people feel. How sick they are of bullsh!t and empty platitudes.

I personally know smart people who say I don't agree with a lot of what he says but I love that he terrifies the establishment.

The guilty truth, I love that too.

Parent

In part, Howdy, I agree (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by christinep on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:14:15 PM EST

I agree that it is the unpredictability--or, that is, the aura of unpredictability deliberately created--that has a siren call for a number of frustrated or alienated or fed-up-with-it-all people. I also agree that neither he nor a portion of his followers are dumb in the book sense.

Here is where we might disagree: It seems that people who are book-smart are not immune from a type of gullibility. In the political world, a showman and/or outsize-personality type with a bit of sucker-born-every-minute attitude can easily convince those not politically sanguine in the world of politics. That situation can feed the demagogue, in the worst case. So ... I think that Donald Trump is playing us all (maybe even himself in the gig early on.) In a way, that is the weird fun part of it--and I do chuckle to see former President Clinton almost chortle over the play so far--the part that is like a TV show game. The game of How Long & How Far Does He Go. We are an entertainment culture on just about everything else; and, I think that is the principal advantage that Trump has to date. He knows the media and the viewers; he plays both for all they are worth; and--maybe--we are laughing with him or at him or at ourselves or who knows???

Donald Trump has exhibited more staying power than expected, imo, because he has been able to stay one step ahead of his slower competitors, has been able to keep the media (and their thirst for ratings $$$$) interested, and keep part of the disillusioned Repub/independent voters hooked to the "I'm an outsider" and "I don't need anybody else because I'm rich and smart" theme. Today, he promoted his Tax Plan.

And what would be surprisingly different about the Tax Plan? Nothing and Everything. In his Brooklyn Bridge enticement, in his promise of a chicken-in-every-pot & you-don't-have-to-pay-any-taxes tax dance, he can appeal to those who long to hear that while throwing in smoke & mirrors about it being revenue neutral because he would close the ever-infamous loopholes. Nothing new there; every flimflam artist promises that kind of staff. But, his packaging is better. I would argue, tho, that a brief look at the proposal might show that Mr. Outsider is actually one of the bigger Mr. Insider(s) of them all ... it takes only a gander at where the cuts for the very wealthy are found. On the surface, not in the individual tax structure ... rather in the Corporate Shield, as it were. Shades of Romney and the boys:) Shields in foreign transfers back into the US and shields for the largest corporations. Mr. Outsider who hails from the moneyed canyons on NYC finance is starting to put his big MR. Insider hues on display.

In the meantime, it sure is tremendously amusing to watch him (and almost cheer on his wedge role with regard to the doofuses that purport to be his competition.) Who cleans up in the end?

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Tax plan (none / 0) (#38)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:22:59 PM EST

Wrong
There is one very new thing.

Hedge fund managers who have been making all the profits and paying no taxes for ever get hit. Pretty damn hard. Also overseas money.

The tax cuts for everyone will make some people. The 1% paying taxes for once will make more people happy.

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Maybe not as much as you think, if at all. (none / 0) (#42)
by Anne on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:46:05 PM EST

Robert Reich (from his Facebook page):

Today Donald Trump trumpeted a tax plan that would eliminate taxes on individuals making less than $25,000 (and couples earning less than $50,000), which is good. But Trump's plan also cuts corporate taxes from 25% to 15%. And he lowers the top tax rate on the rich from close to 40% to 25% -- thereby giving billionaires like himself a windfall totaling tens of millions of dollars a year. But, wait. Hasn't Trump been saying that people like him should pay more taxes?
Asked how his proposal would affect his own tax rate Trump dodged. "We're reducing taxes, but believe me, there will be people in the very upper echelon that won't be thrilled with this." Asked how much he currently pays in taxes, he dodged again. "I fight like hell to pay as little as possible."
Most troubling, Trump's plan doesn't address the most obvious question: With all these tax cuts, how would he raise enough revenue to pay for, say, national defense, Medicare, and everything else we depend on? He insists his proposal won't add to the national debt or deficit, and then provides glib generalities about killing certain deductions for the rich and having U.S. companies bring back cash now held overseas.
Trump doesn't like the "carried interest" loophole that lets hedge-fund and private-equity managers treat their income as capital gains. "I want the hedge fund guys to pay more taxes," he frequently says. But Trump's new tax proposal gives the "hedge fund guys" an even better deal than they're getting now.
Bottom line: Trump is either a knave who's trying to fool the American people, or is himself is a fool.

And here's the NYT:

Even the hedge fund managers Mr. Trump has railed against on the stump would get a tax cut under his plan. The usual fee structure for a hedge fund is called "2-and-20": a flat management fee (often 2 percent) on all assets, plus a performance fee (often 20 percent) on profits above a set threshold. Currently, the management fee is taxed at ordinary rates up to 39.6 percent, while the performance fee enjoys a preferential rate of 23.8 percent. Under Mr. Trump's plan, all this income would be taxed at a maximum of 25 percent. The performance fee would be subject to a small tax increase, but that effect would be dwarfed by the large tax cut on ordinary management fees.

And he's offering no plan for how he will pay for all these cuts, other than the usual, "grow the economy."

No doubt he will bluster his way through, hurling insults at those who challenge his numbers and his representations.

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: Not that I doubt this (none / 0) (#46)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 02:01:10 PM EST

But I look forward to more discussion of the effect. I'm not sure I buy every thing that either Reich or the Times said.
But even if it's true. My comment was not so much about the substance as the sparkle.
This is what everybody wants to hear.

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: A lot of people will like this (none / 0) (#47)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 02:36:20 PM EST

Mr. Trump would offer huge tax cuts for the middle and upper-middle class. Married couples would pay no tax on their first $50,000 of income and just 10 percent on the next $50,000. A married couple with no children earning $100,000 and taking the standard deduction would pay $11,437 in income tax under today's rules; under Mr. Trump's plan, they would pay just $5,000, a tax cut of 56 percent.

Parent

Stay tuned, Howdy (none / 0) (#44)
by christinep on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 01:58:20 PM EST

The approach that Trump unrolled today had been hinted at by a few writers, who wrote that the proposed significant decrease in corporate taxes (together with the one-time 10% tax on bringing back $$$$ abroad) amount to a substantial increase in corporate wealth for those at the top already.

I suspect that the race in the next few days will center on: Who has the most direct/plainest explanation or rejoinder as to the real effects of the Trump Tax Plan? Right now ... the answer to that is not known.

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Howdy you have nailed it. (none / 0) (#16)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:12:23 AM EST

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I don't know how anyone who is sick (none / 0) (#21)
by Anne on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:42:08 AM EST

of BS and empty platitudes cannot hear or read that there is little else coming from Trump - "there will be so much winning your head will spin" is an example of both. And there are tons of others.

Being able to speak without any kind of filter and insult establishment figures does not confer substance to what he's saying; people may hear it as truth, but there's nothing under it that qualifies as substance, so, yeah, Trump's full of it, too. According to Trump, Rand is a loser, Carly's ugly and so on - so what? Anyone who doesn't say nice things about him is a loser, a hack, a third-rate whatever.

At some point, the people will realize that Trump can't insult his way to all the things that need doing in this country and around the world, that throwing sand and kicking and screaming on the playground has been mildly amusing, but they can't actually vote for him.

He'll have parlayed it all into financial reward, as he always does, and that will be that.

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It speaks to the complete failure (none / 0) (#24)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:01:50 AM EST

Of our political leaders and even more of money driven 1%er political system that this person doing all the thing you say came to be seen as representing honesty and hope.

And to many he does. Like it or not.

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: Like John Cleese says (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 11:06:39 AM EST

Democracy has failed. To succeed it requires an intelligent and educated voting public. And we don't have one.
I believe it has been the goal of the right for generations to creat this environment. Ignorant superstitious people are much easier to manipulate. They have done everything they can to destroy the educational system and make that happen.
And it worked.

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OK.. (none / 0) (#51)
by lentinel on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 04:45:34 PM EST

I don't know how anyone who is sick of BS and empty platitudes cannot hear or read that there is little else coming from Trump.

But what are we hearing from the rest of that lot?

Some of them, like Florina's bold announcement that she wouldn't even entertain the notion of talking to our perceived adversaries, makes the prospect of bs and empty platitudes look pretty good by comparison.

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The point (none / 0) (#17)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:15:19 AM EST

is that the real "fear" of Trump exists mainly within the Republican establishment. I know some Trump supporters who range from total moron losers to some pretty sharp successful people, I don't think I would call any of them.

I recognize this huge anti-establishment wave that is enveloping the entire electorate, with Sanders being it's avatar on the left.

I am just surprised that Trumps ideas which are essentially as delusional as Carly's videos are not laughed off the table by some of these more "intelligent" supporters.

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I think it's because (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:19:54 AM EST

It's honestly not about ideas. His support is because of his in you face attitude. I think most don't believe a word he says.

That's sort of counter intuitive but that's what I think.

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That's (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:24:22 AM EST

the truly scary part, it's WWE masquerading as serious politics.....and it's working.

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Well, it might have started (none / 0) (#22)
by NYShooter on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:50:32 AM EST

out being a WWE impersonation, but I think I detect a slight change of attitude on Donald's part. I don't know if you caught Trump on 60 minutes yesterday, but it was quite interesting, IMO.

I think that, as his lead position in the polls, remains high, he may be going through some sort of transformation. He was much more into policy than before, and the reality that he may just win this thing seems to be having a kind of maturing effect on him.

It's just human nature, we all are susceptible to it. It's one thing being a fan, standing on the outside, and yelling obscenities at the coach for some perceived bone-headed call he made. But, if by some sort of magic you were called in to coach the team, "snap!" just like that, the silliness would disappear, and a new, serious, nervous "You" would take over.

Now that he thinks that this thing he started as some sort of publicity lark has morphed into something much, much bigger than he first imagined we may just be seeing a "new Trump" on the stump going forward.

Interesting.

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The (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 03:38:29 PM EST

problem for Trump his once he starts talking policy and generally acting seriously he ceases to be the shiny object in the room.

His tax plan at first glance is the same old Republican claptrap, closely resembling Jeb's, just bigger cuts on the bottom and the top and all paid for by closing undefined loopholes and Laffler curve pixie dust.

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: Yep (none / 0) (#56)
by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 05:42:48 PM EST

I'm seeing that already. When he starts promoting boiler plate GOP stuff like the tax policy he starts to lose his "shine" so to speak. And he starts to sound like Mitch McConnell and the rest of them in Washington, DC.

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: I was (none / 0) (#59)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 07:23:23 PM EST

wrong, CNN is reporting this like he carried some tablets down from MT Sinai, even bloody Bill Kristol was in awe.
CNN has seamlessly switched from all Pope back to all Trump with a shot of Hillary's emails, and a shot of Putin.

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Just my two cents but (none / 0) (#54)
by ragebot on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 05:30:20 PM EST

Trump's biggest strength is he speaks in terms people understand.

You may, or may not, like what Trump says but you understand it.

The thirty words or less description of his tax plan is he would simplify the tax code. It is not easy to disagree his plan is simpler. Would it be tax neutral; who would the winners and losers be, and some other questions will be answered differently by different folks.

His supporters will say Trump's simplified tax code is revenue neutral and 70 some million folks would be winners; detractors will say otherwise.

What ever one wants to say about Hillary she does not seem to be able to communicate her economic positions as clearly as the Donald does. Bernie's economic plans are basically here is a bunch of free stuff and little specifics on how it will be paid for. Of course Hillary and Bernie supporters can fill in the blanks on the respective plans and like them.

But the bottom line is that aside from Trump the candidates are preaching to the choir. Trump is trying to win the voters who have not made up their mind.

Watch a Trump rally and he listens to those in the crowd (and he gets bigger crowds than anyone else) and responds. To some extent Bernie does the same thing, but no other candidate does.

I am not really a Trump fan, but can't see any one taking him out unless they change the way the speak to the crowds.

Now (none / 0) (#57)
by FlJoe on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 06:16:58 PM EST

there's this Now Carl Icahn is endorsing Donald Trump I know just another random billionaire, but another feather in his "serious" cap.

: Trump (none / 0) (#58)
by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 06:21:24 PM EST

Has mentioned him in just about every speech he has made since declaring.
He is going to put Ichan in charge of Japan and China.
No word on how Japan an China feel about that.

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: Icahn's not just another billionaire (none / 0) (#60)
by shoephone on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 10:53:39 PM EST

He's another failure in the business world. Every time he acquires a company or fights to get on a company's board, that company loses million$ in shares.
He and the bankruptcy king Trump are perfect for each other.

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Trump's tax plan (none / 0) (#66)
by KeysDan on Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 12:09:54 PM EST

is basic flim-flam. For example, he takes away (carried interest preferential tax rates for "hedge fund guys,"} and gives back (reduced tax rates), for, essentially, a wash.

$Trillions in lost revenue to be made up by elimination of unspecified deductions, except home mortgage interest, and illusory Trump growth of six percent,surpassing Jeb illusory growth of four percent.

But, Trump's tax plan is a lot like any Republican tax plan--reduced taxes for corporations and high rollers. But, in contrast to Jeb, and Romney before him, where there is no "free stuff," for the poors, there is free stuff for the very rich and a bone with a little meat on it for the middle class.

And, like any Republican tax plan, there is no concern for deficits for tax cuts. Or wars. That is a concern only for deficits for social programs and free stuff for the poor.

These basics out of the way, the Trump tax plan will put responsible tax analysts on the defensive. Especially, with an irresponsible sales pitch, one in which its smoke and mirrors will be seen as bling.

More appealing to have a tax cut than a tax increase. And, those pesky deficits will be discounted by a Trump with a terrific economy that he will bring. The Trump tax plan, as with any flim flam, will be hard to beat down, until the sorrow sets in, much later.

claen (none / 0) (#78)
by yasmenAbdallah on Mon Jan 04, 2016 at 10:06:23 AM EST

caleen (none / 0) (#79)
by yasmenAbdallah on Mon Jan 04, 2016 at 10:08:23 AM EST

Trump to Unveil New Tax Plan, Falls in Poll | 79 comments (79 topical)

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