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Sunday Night Open Thread

I have no idea who .Mic News is or why Google News is promoting its stories above mainstream media articles on its News home page. But .Mic should fire its headline writer and Google needs a new algorithm for picking news articles. Example: This headline is false and inexcusable. And it's the number one story on my Google News page.

Obama did not say intervention in Libya was the worst mistake of his Presidency. He said he still supports intervening in Libya, his worst mistake was in failing to plan for the day after the intervention. The quote:

“Probably failing to plan for the day after,” Obama said in the session, which was taped at the University of Chicago on April 7. He added that intervening in Libya “was the right thing to do.”

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • Good morning (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by ExPatObserver on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 09:50:04 PM EST
    I think this new name will easily identify me to oldtimers. The retrieve password function wasn't working. Yes, I'm still in the 2nd coldest capital in the world.

    Hi, Oculus!:)

    Hey, it has been a long (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by caseyOR on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 10:15:13 PM EST
    time. How are you? I don't remember what country you are in, but glad you are well.

    Welcome back.

    Parent

    Wow, good to have you back! (none / 0) (#19)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:07:55 AM EST
    Hope life has been good to you over there. How do our political shenanigans look from your perspective?

    Parent
    Trump is scary (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ExPatObserver on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:17:56 AM EST
    Even 6,000 mi away.

    Parent
    All about attitude (none / 0) (#68)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:55:56 PM EST
    Trump & Putting would make a pair for the ages.

    Parent
    Life is good (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by ExPatObserver on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:21:10 AM EST
    I do a lot of travelling. In a few hours I am going to Tel Aviv
    for a conference. In May I will go to Norway for one month.

    Parent
    Oops ... my error (none / 0) (#75)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:15:24 PM EST
    I wasn't inadvertently referring to golf.  Please read my first comment as "Trump & Putin."

    BTW, scary as that may sound, consider this: Mr. Cruz could even be more frightening ... he is a true believer.

    Parent

    site violator (none / 0) (#106)
    by fishcamp on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:42:39 AM EST
    Failing to plan for the outcome(s) (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by NycNate on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:22:12 PM EST
    Is unacceptable.  In my business, that would be worse that the initial action. Planning for the "day after" is the sign of a good leader.

    Filed under "most arrogant defense ever" (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:20:29 AM EST
    roughly translated to:

    "So, you finally noticed that we're a bunch of overreaching manipulative a$$hats who've done nothing but throw money at the disasters spawned by our previous overreaching manipulations.  So what are you gonna do about it, peasants?  I'm the President.  p.s. Vote for Hillary!"

    Parent

    Congrats to Queen Dadler (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:56:44 PM EST
    My wife has just been promoted to Chief Operating & Strategic Officer at her bank in SF. She now becomes the first female senior executive in the bank's history. The lady rocks.

     

    That's hilarious (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:34:11 AM EST
    . . . as Bernie Sanders relegates her to Dante's "reserved special place in the Seventh Circle of Hell for those who charged people usurious interest rates," the big bad bankers who live like kings and queens, squashing the serfs like us.

    Don't worry, though, that he wants your wife subjected to Dante's "hellfire and pitch forks" or "rivers of boiling blood," because all he wants to do is subject her to laws against the "usury" by which Queen Dadler pays the bills to let you live on the Internet to fight on for the guy who hates her for what she does.

    Parent

    The potential for humor was begging for a response (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:49:00 PM EST
    You're so much better with words I'm glad I left it for you.

    Parent
    Shouldn't you ask... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:01:30 PM EST
    what bank she works for?  There are some half-decent ones left who haven't been swallowed up by Hillary's buddies.

    Parent
    Doesn't (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:33:23 PM EST
    matter. Bernie never differentiates between bad and good banks. Of course, if it's a bank Bernie deals with it is all of a sudden deemed holy and pure.

    Parent
    Well then... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:52:38 PM EST
    maybe Mrs. D works for The Bern Savings & Loan!

    George Bailey was a (reluctant) banker, everybody loved him except old man Potter and maybe the guy who repealed Glass-Steagall so old man Potter could get richer.  

    Parent

    actually (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:01:37 PM EST
    George Bailey would be considered a sub prime lender in today's market.

    Parent
    ROFL (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    He sure would!

    Parent
    But offering prime rates! (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:34:48 PM EST
    And that's why we loved him...a banker with heart and a sense of community.

    In today's market you'd call that an endangered species.

    Parent

    But offering prime rates! (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:45:09 PM EST
    And that's why we loved him...a banker with heart and a sense of community.

    In today's market you'd call that an endangered species.

    Parent

    Sad More Than Anything... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:20:24 PM EST
    ... and getting a '5' for basically being a jacka$$.  Whatever you do don't congratulate anyone for accomplishing something, only use it as a baseball bat to show exactly how unhinged HRC supporters have become at TL.

    I would add the rest of the quote you chopped off for context, you know where is talking about +15% interest rates and $5 ATM fees.  But why bother, you have managed to convince yourself that anyone not supporting HRC wants to relinquish anyone in the bank/financial field to hell.  No context is going to help that level of dementia.

    But hey if you think Dadler's wife is setting interest rates and ATM fees, fantastic point, otherwise is just mean spirited BS that would be far more cozy over at the Trump camp, where being a jacka$$ is to be revered and given 5's.

    I miss the days where democrats didn't defend wall street on a daily basis, when ridiculous interest rates and fees charged by banks were a bad thing, where the folks who brought the economy to edge of collapse were the bad guys.

    But once again Wall Street prevails, just put a potential candidate on the payroll and the supporters will take care of the rest.  Like I said, sad more than anything.

    Parent

    towanda made an excellent point (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:44:15 PM EST
    ... an excellent point that, in these circumstances, was not only called for but needed to be made.  

    One of the questions posed by those who aren't satisfied with simplistic answers ala the banks-are-responsible-for-all-bad-things (as well as the increasingly phony labeling of good & bad based upon "establishment" or not) relates to the obvious consequences of indiscriminate, emotional bashing of the country's economic institutions and other forms of wherewithal.  To hear Sanders tell it anymore--to the NY Daily News & later interviews--it really isn't up to him to address consequences, including job loss of those employed in the banking structure (or the Wall Street structure or the corporate structure.  That brushing-it-off response tells me loud & clear that he has not given much thought to the very negative effects on regular, human employees that would roll & ripple throughout the system.  

    The economic system that spawned the growing gap between rich & poor must be addressed.  That understanding is almost universal ... and Senator Sanders, as well as Senator Warren, deserve much credit for singularly identifying a principal ingredient of a growing economic dilemma.  It is especially important to deal with the full circumstances ... e.g., the whole lending & shadow-banking structure  AND the recognition that as people are dislocated (and they will be should the re-structuring be meaningfully large), we have a responsibility to deal with transitional consequences such as job loss.  It ain't just about rallies and exhortations.  

    Towanda's comment is provocatively correct.  It needs to be made again & again ... here & elsewhere.  


    Parent

    Great humor always deserves a "5" (4.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:31:59 PM EST
    Peter, I wish I could give your 4 a 5 :) (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 06:34:58 PM EST
    Laura Bush endorses Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:28:42 AM EST
    it seems.
    The U.S. has a tendency "to become sort of isolationist and xenophobic," Bush continued. "I understand that Americans are angry and frustrated but we do not need someone in the Oval Office who mirrors and inflames our anger and frustration."


    That (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:14:02 AM EST
    "seems" to be the story but it really sounds more anti Trump than anything.

    Parent
    Is that (none / 0) (#15)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:50:43 AM EST
    Good...or Bad?

    Parent
    Sounds like Bernie to me (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:24:50 AM EST
    I looked it up (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 03:26:49 PM EST
    Sounds like Bernie to me

    ...and it really WAS Laura Bush who said all that about Trump!

    She may SOUND like Bernie, and she may share some of his frustration with an adulterous, racist xenophobe with delusions of adequacy, two failed marriages and four YUUUGE business failures resulting in bankruptcy and a big tab for the taxpayers, but she is a Republican, trust me on that.

    Parent

    Check this out: (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:44:34 PM EST
    It's becoming (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:07:39 PM EST
    obvious it's something to do with female candidates.

    Parent
    not sure if it is (none / 0) (#95)
    by linea on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:29:19 PM EST
    this isn't consistent with all the psychology-sociology studies that i'm familiar with. as a general perception, women are usually considered more honest but less competent.

    Parent
    Internet commenting provides (none / 0) (#98)
    by ExPatObserver on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:22:54 PM EST
    ground for blind testing of attitudes towards genders. Surely something in this direction has been done.

    Parent
    Yes, we have several studies (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:58:43 PM EST
    of attitudes toward professors who teach online classes, with gender-neutral names -- and then with gender-specific names.

    The results are sadly predictable.

    Parent

    As is this (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Nemi on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:59:01 AM EST
    - sadly predictable: Research by The Guardian into online harassment in their own comment threads, have found that:

    Although the majority of our regular opinion writers are white men, we found that those who experienced the highest levels of abuse and dismissive trolling were not. The 10 regular writers who got the most abuse were eight women (four white and four non-white) and two black men. Two of the women and one of the men were gay. And of the eight women in the "top 10", one was Muslim and one Jewish.

    And the 10 regular writers who got the least abuse? All men.

    ...

    Articles about feminism attracted very high levels of blocked comments. And so did rape.
    ...

    We focused on gender in this research partly because we wanted to test the theory that women experience more abuse than men. But both writers and moderators observe that ethnic and religious minorities, and LGBT people also appear to experience a disproportionate amount of abuse.


    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#100)
    by ExPatObserver on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:42:11 PM EST
    half of it is predictable. The other question is whether people can guess the gender of the internet interlocutor. I would guess probably not, but I'd like to see the evidence.

    Parent
    that's a big word (none / 0) (#101)
    by linea on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:05:37 AM EST
    interlocutor: a person who is having a conversation with you

    i can usually tell. on forums. when usernames are vague i can usually tell male from female writers.

    Parent

    I don't recall the proportion (none / 0) (#114)
    by Towanda on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:25:22 AM EST
    of predictability, but you must have a better memory of the studies -- but then, you say that you haven't seen the studies. Odd.

    Parent
    I must have been unclear (none / 0) (#123)
    by ExPatObserver on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:18:32 AM EST
    of course it's no surprise that knowledge of gender would influence evaluation, but I don't know anything specific. Thanks for the replies!

    Parent
    I think I may have to see (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:26:08 PM EST
    The Jungle Book

    It looks amazing

    I think so too, spectacular (none / 0) (#200)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 14, 2016 at 02:40:47 PM EST
    It's on my to do list.

    Parent
    Article (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:25:19 PM EST
    with some back story on Obama's mea culpa . Pretty much exonerates Hillary.
    Mrs. Clinton certainly understood how hard the transition to a post-Qaddafi Libya would be. In February, before the allied bombing began, she noted that political change in Egypt had proved tumultuous despite strong institutions.

    "So imagine how difficult it will be in a country like Libya," she had said. "Qaddafi ruled for 42 years by basically destroying all institutions and never even creating an army, so that it could not be used against him."

    Early on, the president's national security adviser, Tom Donilon, had created a planning group called "Post-Q." Mrs. Clinton helped organize the Libya Contact Group, a powerhouse collection of countries that had pledged to work for a stable and prosperous future. By early 2012, she had flown to a dozen international meetings on Libya, part of a grueling schedule of official travel in which she kept competitive track of miles traveled and countries visited.

     She understood the danger and worked hard with allies to fix it.

    On Jan. 5, Mrs. Clinton's old friend and adviser Sidney Blumenthal emailed her with the latest in a series of behind-the-scenes reports on Libya, largely written by a retired C.I.A. officer, Tyler Drumheller, who died last year.

    The memo detailed the roiling tensions between Islamists and secularists over the role of Islamic law, fighting between rival militias associated with two different towns and four visits to Mr. Keib's office by "angry militiamen" demanding concessions.

    Mr. Keib, the email said, "believes that if he does not disarm the militias and meet their demands in the next six months, there is a good chance of increased fighting among rival groups that could lead to civil war." Mrs. Clinton forwarded the message to Mr. Sullivan, her policy aide, with a single comment: "Worrying."

     She saw trouble and raised the alarm in the SD.

    But it was too late. Obama had already moved on  

    After Colonel Qaddafi's fall, with minimal violence and friendly interim leadership, Libya had moved quickly off the top of the administration's agenda. The regular situation room meetings on Libya, often including the president, simply stopped. The revolt in Syria, in the heart of the Middle East and with nearly four times Libya's population, took center stage
    Libya, Mr. Ross said, "was farmed out to the working level."

    The inattention was not just neglect. It was policy.

    "The president was like, `We are not looking to do another Iraq,'" said Derek Chollet, then handling Libya for the National Security Council. "And by the way, the Europeans were all along saying: `No, no, no, we're doing this. We got it. We believe in Libya. This is in our neighborhood.'"

    Her hands became tied  

    So the president and the National Security Council set what one official called "fierce limits" on the American role: The United States would provide help only when it could offer a unique capability, only when Libya explicitly requested the services and only when Libya paid for them with its oil revenue. In practice, those conditions meant the United States would do very little.
    .

    And finally those Europeans who said "we got it",

    And though the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, and the British prime minister, David Cameron, visited Libya together, they, too, were soon distracted, by re-election campaigns and economic worries.


    ... Bernie Sanders' overall election performance has thus belied one of his signature issues, which is that money talks in politics -- because even though he's outraising and outspending Hillary Clinton by rather significant margins, he's still losing. And if he doesn't turn it around soon, Tuesday, April 19 may the day his campaign finally hits the proverbial brick wall.

    The Biggest Irony (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:59:17 PM EST
    to me is:  Bernie uses big money in politics to smear Hillary, Bernie uses Citizen United as poster child of Big Money in Politics, The Citizens United case rose out of a smear on Hillary.

    Irony and twisted synchronicity, can't beat it.

    Parent

    Bernie (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:37:01 PM EST
    Is going to California.

    Parent
    Disneyland? (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:06:37 PM EST
    "Disney California Adventure"! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:50:46 PM EST
    That's actually my favorite part of the overall Disneyland complex in Anaheim. It's a completely separate theme park from the Magic Kingdom, like EPCOT in Orlando's Walt Disney World.

    Like most everything Disney, its relationship with the diverse reality that defines California is somewhat tenuous at best -- but hey, it's Disney! It is what it is. Those who seek reality can go hang out at the Chevron station on the corner of Florence and Normandie in south-central L.A., bus tables at the Cheesecake Factory in Rancho Mirage, or spend a weekend up north picking tomatoes and strawberries in Salinas Valley.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Sanders isn't living in reality (none / 0) (#179)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 08:26:46 PM EST
    so Disney California Adventure it is.

    Parent
    No doubt, Bernie will play out the string. (none / 0) (#168)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:00:12 PM EST
    But by that point, I'm pretty sure that the matter will have already been decided. It's only been a question of time before the delegate math finally catches up to him, and if the current poll numbers hold up, reality is going to bite the Sanders campaign next Tuesday particularly hard.

    As a practical matter, Sen. Sanders needs to cut a deal with Hillary Clinton and not frivolously throw away the significant leverage he does have within the Democratic Party right now, by clinging to some nonsensical pretense that he still has a shot at the nomination and continuing to attack her personally.

    Now, whether Bernie Sanders is actually still capable of engaging his practical side, as he used to be during the four terms he served as Burlington, VT's mayor, remains to be seen. I have to admit, I now have my doubts about that, given both the candidate's demonstrable penchant for ideological self-indulgence and his campaign's increased willingness of late to take the low road.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I share your doubts (none / 0) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:03:32 PM EST
    They are already pushing back on the idea a big loss in NY is the end of plausibility for him.

    Parent
    Wait (none / 0) (#171)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:10:12 PM EST
    Eleven days ago Sanders said "We are going to win New York."

    Parent
    I think that is still being (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:21:54 PM EST
    Intermittently said.

    Parent
    I believe the latest polls ... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:58:45 PM EST
    ... all show Mrs. Clinton maintaining a solid double-digit lead in New York, as do the last polls I saw out of Pennsylvania and Maryland. The closest race appears to be in Connecticut, where she's up by six, 49-43%.

    Parent
    Yesterday (none / 0) (#186)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:41:48 AM EST
    In Syracuse, Bernie said he is going to win New York.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:53:34 PM EST
    calvin ball.

    Parent
    The meme now (none / 0) (#183)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 06:49:45 AM EST
    Is that unless Hillary wins by pledged delegates alone, he will contest the convention.  In other words, Team Sanders claims Hillary MUST win 59% of all remaining pledged delegates to avoid a fight.

    Parent
    If he forces a convention fight (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 08:30:37 AM EST
    She should hang his withered privates from the parking lot flag pole.

    Parent
    This IS getting more and more like (none / 0) (#187)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:46:32 AM EST
    Game of Thrones. Sanders has the feel of...oh how soon I forget the names...the Baratheon with the Red Woman. If he has a daughter, she better hide.

    Parent
    Stannis (none / 0) (#189)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:49:56 AM EST
    thank you! I could not come up with (none / 0) (#194)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 10:01:05 AM EST
    it and refused to look it up.

    Parent
    The love child of Stannis (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 11:51:28 AM EST
    And Maester Pycelle

    Parent
    Hillary is off giving speeches (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 08:38:11 PM EST
    at the Iron Bank of Braavos.

    Parent
    Stannis Sanders (none / 0) (#191)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:51:03 AM EST
    Right (none / 0) (#185)
    by mm on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:04:51 AM EST
    So meanwhile Sanders is trying to wrestle away her Super Delegates to his side.

    Apparently, if they switch sides then they count, but if they stick with Hillary then they don't count and only pledged delegates count.

    I have a new theme song for "The Burn"


    Parent

    Obama makes no sense (2.67 / 3) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 09:24:02 PM EST
    By his illogic, he is saying he supports an intervention that he KNEW would not work. Or are we to believe he thought having no real plan would result in success? After Afghanistan? After Iraq? Sure, that makes sense. Egad.

    Personally, I'd suggest his greatest failure is his cowardly inability to face that, on the  issue that affects every single American -- financial corruption (and the political corruption that enables it) -- he was an abject and inexcusable failure. In fact, it could easily be argued, that Eric Holder, his chosen Attorney General for the first 3/4's of his administration, ACTIVELY UNDERMINED any chance the American people had at a just legal reckoning regarding the Sub-Prime crisis. (LINK) Guess that's what happens when Hope and Change meets more Wall Street money than any pol in American history has pocketed.

    IOW, I think Obama's trying to help Hillary here (1.25 / 4) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:45:46 PM EST
    Libya is increasingly, and rightfully viewed, as her murderous disaster, having "won" the argument within the admin on the matter.

    Just my two cents.

    Parent

    "Her murderous disaster." (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:25:11 AM EST
    Your turntable appears to be stuck at 78 RPM.

    Parent
    And your metaphors (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:55:22 AM EST
    are stuck in the vinyl age.

    Parent
    slinging insults again? (none / 0) (#8)
    by christinep on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:58:11 PM EST
    Somebody, please, defend her position on Libya (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:29:03 AM EST
    It is a fact. She won the argument. She and Obama went ahead with a plan that was murderous in its ineptitude, THE PRESIDENT IS ADMITTING THAT HERE, or are you going to claim non one at that level had any clue there was no post-toppling plan at all. Come on, this is just insane. For heaven's sake, I have a brother who has served four tours in the middle east, I have pretty strong opinions on blithely disregarding mistakes having to do with state sponsored mass murder, which is what Clinton's love of "regime change" is. Defend her making and winning the argument when no one, yet again, had the slightest clue what to do after the "easy" part was over.

    Parent
    The NATO military intervention in Libya ... (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:03:45 PM EST
    ... was primarily conducted by the French and British. The French had already made the decision to intervene militarily on behalf of the rebels in Cyrenaica (eastern Libya). American forces were only involved in the initial first strikes to knock out Moammar Khadafy's air force, and we did so with cruise missiles and no aircraft. The NATO warplanes assigned to provide combat support to the rebels were entirely French, British and Canadian.

    So your entire suggested premise that this operation was somehow Hillary Clinton's baby from start to finish is fundamentally fact-free and categorically false. She and President Obama were merely supporting the publicly stated French position, that's all.

    The French had been facing off against Khadafy for the better part of three decades, defending his sub-Saharan neighbors in Chad and Niger from his intrigues. When the opportunity presented itself to perhaps take him out, as it did with the popular uprising against his rule in Benghazi and Cyrenaica, then-French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe informed his U.S. and NATO counterparts in February 2011 that his country was prepared to act alone if necessary.

    France is the fifth largest military power in the world. Its armed forces had more than enough firepower itself to take down Khadafy, and then-French President Nicolas Sarkozy made it perfectly clear that his government intended to intervene to protect the civilian population in Cyrenaica from Khadafy's murderous onslaught. And make no mistake, Khadafy was indeed about to slaughter his own people for having the temerity to openly oppose his rule, and in fact had already begun to do so.

    France has a long history of unilateral military intervention in Africa. It did so just recently in Mali to prop up the local government in response to the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalist insurgents associated with al Qa'eda. Further, the French generally do not seek U.S. permission and prior concurrence before embarking on such operations.

    Further, I already told you all this in great detail once before, and provided a lot of supporting documentation to that effect. But apparently you're not interested in listening to any facts that run counter to your preferred demagogic narrative, in which Hillary Clinton is the present source of all that's evil in this world.

    Do we bear some responsibility for Libya's present failed state in the wake of Khadafy's downfall? Absolutely, we do -- but certainly not the the virtual exclusion of our NATO allies, whom you conveniently ignore in your all-too-apparent eagerness to lay this entire matter at the feet of Mrs. Clinton and President Obama.

    Suffice to say that if you have a gripe about Moammar Khadafy being taken down, then you ought to take it up with Paris and London, who would've done so anyway -- with or without our support. Our own military's involvement in that particular intervention was negligible, and our government's role was restricted to that of good ally and supporting player.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I knew if I waited you would do a better job (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:43:25 PM EST
    off the top of your head than I would digging into stuff to refresh my memory.  Thanks!

    This idea that Hillary is so mad for regime change is such hyperbole, I didn't know where to start.

    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:00:40 AM EST
    Whoever Dadler supports in the presidential primary is none of my concern. But his notion that Hillary Clinton is entirely responsible for Libya's present state is utter nonsense, given the facts. He dared someone to defend her. I merely took him up on it.

    The public record very strongly suggests that France would have acted against the Khadafy regime unilaterally, regardless of the Obama administration's approval or disapproval. The French foreign ministry actively campaigned for the approval of U.N. Security Council Resolution No. 1973, which established a no-fly zone over Libya. Further, Paris's interpretation of that resolution was far more strident and robust than what was being said in either Washington or London at the time.

    Given France's documented history of multiple military interventions throughout sub-Saharan Africa, there was absolutely no reason to doubt the French intent or capacity to intervene in Libya.

    In fact, at the same time French warplanes were patrolling the skies over Tripolitania and Cyrenaica in April 2011, French troops were forcibly ousting President Lawrence Gbabgo from power in Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), after he had lost an election yet refused to give way to his victorious opponent.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    crickets (none / 0) (#37)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:30:08 PM EST
    Can you phrase your request with something more anti-Sanders, please.

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:18:14 PM EST
    you do know that Sanders voted for endorsing no fly zones and regime change in Libya. While he did "question" the intervention. He appeared more worried about getting stick in a quagmire then the wisdom of it.
    Look, everybody understands Qaddafi is a thug and murderer. We want to see him go, but i think in the midst of two wars, I'm not quite sure we need a third war, and I hope the president tells us that our troops will be leaving there[ troops were never actually there], that our military action in Libya will be ending very, very shortly[which happened, as planned]."

    Then when given a chance to show judgment and leadership

    As for whether or not Sanders will support or, perhaps, author a resolution on the war, under the War Powers Act, Sanders said, simply, "We'll see."

    "We'll see" how bold.

    Parent

    Now that you are posting (none / 0) (#40)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:38:54 PM EST
    How about you answer the original question? Or explain to me why Hillary's position was somehow better than Sanders'?

    Parent
    What you are most definitely saying, Steve, (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:51:04 PM EST
    is that life does not allow us to make mistakes.  
    To do so condemns the person to h#ll.  One exception to that rule:  It doesn't apply to anyone other than Hillary Rodham Clinton (and, when one might argue, President Obama.)

    Parent
    Not at all Christine (none / 0) (#112)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:20:16 AM EST
    We all make mistakes. But we are supposed to LEARN from them. Hillary voting for the Iraq war was a mistake. Hillary pushing for regime change in Libya was a mistake (it was essentially the same mission...take out a leader and have no plan for the power vacuum created). Then Hillary was for intervention in Syria. Maybe she had an afterwards plan for Syria, but I am not sure about that.

    It's not a mistake, it's Hillary's foreign policy approach.

    Parent

    You may have forgotten vis-a-vis Libya (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:04:32 PM EST
    Not only that "the buck stops here" (at the President's desk), but also that we really do not know the in-depth discussions/debates/positions that were advanced in the course of time leading up to the Presidential decision.  I'd suggest then that to speak so definitively as to the Secretary's precise position--apart from the expected & honored role of being a loyal cabinet member--may well be a MISTAKE on your part.  You may be inventing too much.

    Parent
    I will admit (none / 0) (#152)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:00:58 PM EST
    I don't know what actually happened in the cabinet-level meetings, but several media outlets have some insight:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/02/03/a-tough-call-on-libya-that-still-haunts/

    I don't think HRC has ever said she was against the military action, which to me speaks loudest.

    With respect to Syria, there is no question about her policy:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/us/politics/hillary-clinton-syria-islamic-state.html?_r=0

    Now that the distractions are dealt with, what about my comments about making the same mistakes over and over?

    Parent

    As for your question .... (none / 0) (#158)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:39:15 PM EST
    My answer: Allegations about "making the same mistakes over and over," call for a conclusion that your conclusions define "overstatement" and "unsupported generalizations."

     Your conclusions about HRC's foreign policy really expand too far based on a few actions that you believe typify her overall approach. Again, recall that the President is the decision-maker, not the Secretary of State.  We all do that ... I know that I sometimes form an opinion about someone based upon an act or two, and proceed to take the measure of the whole person as a result ... more often than not, a few actions with which I did not agree turned out not to be predictive at all in those situations.  My lesson for myself is to await a broader picture before searching for other tidbits to fit a premature conclusion.  

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#159)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:43:21 PM EST
    n/m

    Parent
    First (5.00 / 6) (#85)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 06:02:13 PM EST
    if we are going to litigate history let's study it(warning amateur google historian).
    This was truly an international affair in which the US was not the lead player, most of the impetus came from the French and the British. Some chronology from WIKI

    25 February 2011: Sarkozy said Gaddafi "must go."[54]

    26 February 2011: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 was passed unanimously, referring the Libyan government to the International Criminal Court for gross human rights violations.

    28 February 2011: British Prime Minister David Cameron proposed the idea of a no-fly zone to prevent Gaddafi from "airlifting mercenaries" and "using his military aeroplanes and armoured helicopters against civilians."[44]

    1 March 2011: The US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging the United Nations Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone and encouraging Gaddafi to step down. The US had naval forces positioned off the coast of Libya, as well as forces already in the region, including the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise.[56]

    2 March 2011: The Governor General of Canada-in-Council authorised, on the advice of Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper, the deployment of the Royal Canadian Navy frigate HMCS Charlottetown to the Mediterranean, off the coast of Libya.[57] Canadian National Defence Minister Peter MacKay stated that "[w]e are there for all inevitabilities. And NATO is looking at this as well ... This is taken as a precautionary and staged measure.

    9 March 2011: The head of the Libyan National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, "pleaded for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties."[40] Three days later, he stated that if pro-Gaddafi forces reached Benghazi, then they would kill "half a million" people. He stated, "If there is no no-fly zone imposed on Gaddafi's regime, and his ships are not checked, we will have a catastrophe in Libya."[41]

    10 March 2011: France recognized the Libyan NTC as the legitimate government of Libya soon after Sarkozy met with them in Paris. This meeting was arranged by Bernard-Henri Lévy.[58]

    11 March 2011: Cameron joined forces with Sarkozy after Sarkozy demanded immediate action from international community for a no-fly zone against air attacks by Gaddafi.[59]

    12 March 2011: The Arab League "called on the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over Libya in a bid to protect civilians from air attack."[48][49][50][60] The Arab League's request was announced by Omani Foreign Minister Yusuf bin Alawi bin Abdullah, who stated that all member states present at the meeting agreed with the proposal.[48]

    12 March, thousands of Libyan women marched in the streets of the rebel-held town of Benghazi, calling for the imposition of a no-fly zone over Libya.[42]

    14 March 2011: In Paris at the Élysée Palace, before the summit with the G8 Minister for Foreign Affairs, Sarkozy, who is also the president of the G8, along with French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé met with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and pressed her to push for intervention in Libya.[61]

    17 March 2011: The UN Security Council, acting under the authority of Chapter VII of the UN Charter, approved a no-fly zone by a vote of ten in favour, zero against, and five abstentions, via United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973.

    19 March 2011: French[72] forces began the military intervention in Libya, later joined by coalition forces with strikes against armoured units south of Benghazi and attacks on Libyan air-defence systems, as UN Security Council Resolution 1973 called for using "all necessary means" to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas from attack, imposed a no-fly zone, and called for an immediate and with-standing cease-fire, while also strengthening travel bans on members of the regime, arms embargoes, and asset freezes.[18]19 M

    25 March 2011: NATO Allied Joint Force Command in Naples took command of the no-fly zone over Libya and combined it with the ongoing arms embargo operation under the name Operation Unified Protector.[77]

    I am not sure I'm buying HRC was only brought on 5 days before the launch but it is clear to me  that  Sarkozy and Cameron were the ringleaders.

    What is undeniable however, is there was overwhelming widespread support for a no-fly zone along with plenty of sentiment along the Gadhafi should/must/will spectrum.

    The details on how it morphed from the (good) NFZ to the (bad) Gadhafi will go, are a bit more murky but again things point to The French and British.

    Again with all things Hillary she is unduly burdened with decisions she has made as a part of a team, based on reasonable analysis(not in hindsight of course) and noble goals.

    Say what you will but allowing a leader who has been unanimously referred to to the ICC for gross human rights to run loose with blood in his eyes does not sound like much of option.

    Of course it didn't turn out right, such is often the case in these situations but there is plenty of evidence that doing nothing would have led to extreme carnage. There is also no evidence that things would be better off if Gaddafi left voluntarily as some people "hoped"

    Parent

    Well, for an amateur Google historian, ... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:08:22 AM EST
    ... you certainly did a most thorough and excellent job.

    Thank you.

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 08:34:15 AM EST
    The rights ignorance and twisting of history has always stuck in my craw. Now that huge chunks of the left appear to be doing the same thing there is an increasing amount of despair added to my anger.

    With apologies to Santayana , those who misconstrue the past are likely to FU worse the next time.

    Parent

    Would that quote apply to HRC? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:25:31 AM EST
    1. Vote for Iraq War. No exit plan. Power vacuum. Terrorism spikes.

    2. Push for Libya regime change. No exit plan. Power vacuum. Terrorism spikes.

    3. Push for Syrian regime change. No exit plan. Pres Obama didn't go all-in this time, so we haven't quite seen the power vacuum, but we do have ISIS.

    Commenting in advance of the responses I may get, I am not BLAMING Hillary for the Middle East situation, but please don't say she's allow to make mistakes when she keeps making the same ones.

    Parent
    ... to what anybody else has said in this sub-thread, and you insist on repeating the same simplistic things about Hillary Clinton over and again regardless of others' answers to you, so it's really rather pointless to further respond to your demagogy.

    Parent
    I have read (most) of the history lesson (none / 0) (#153)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:06:41 PM EST
    provided on Hillary's foreign policy positions. Lots of words there, but it really all comes down to the idea that given a choice, HRC tends to come down on the side of military interventionism. Can you agree that HRC is more of a hawk than Obama and either embrace that in your candidate or say it doesn't matter?

    Parent
    She is more of a hawk than Obama (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:14:26 PM EST
    It doesn't matter.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:23:33 PM EST
    n/m

    Parent
    In the Syrian and Libya situations (none / 0) (#126)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    there were people from those countries on the ground (not in exile like Chalabi) that asked for coalition help in toppling the dictators. They were inspired by the 'Arab Spring', that we at least publicly celebrated. I myself urged caution at the time in that regard, as I believe Hillary did in regards to Egypt, and was roundly castigated as supporting dictators and destroying the dreams of democracy. In Libya and Syria it was never the coalition planning to go in wholesale and replace the government with one of our own choosing.

    Wrong decisions? Yes, probably. Same decisions over and over again? No.


    Parent

    Let's just agree on (none / 0) (#154)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:07:55 PM EST
    multiple, bad, foreign policy decision making then, OK?

    Parent
    twisting (none / 0) (#161)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:00:34 PM EST
    History again.

    1. Hillary's vote while regrettable (politically and in hindsight) but inconsequential (ie. a no vote would not have stopped the war). She made a bad mistake in trusting Bush not to turn it into a cluster FK, but it's all on him and his henchmen in the end. It's pure BS to lay that debacle on her.
    Fun Fact; Bernie voted in support of regime change in Iraq, H.R.4655.

    2. It's documented fact that much the whole world wanted regime change in Libya, France and Qatar had already made it a done deal by recognizing the rebel Government. The operation itself was not specifically designed for regime change but to institute a no fly zone and protect civilians(Under UN auspices), the French, mostly, took advantage and destroyed enough of Gaddafi's heavy weapons to turn the tide of the civil war leading to Saddam's demise. Regime change came about at the hands of his countrymen as it should.

    There was no exit plan because there was basically no entrance in the first place, the power vacuum that resulted was mostly created by the Libyan people being unable to govern themselves and exacerbated by the lack of follow up from the international community (although I do think our SD was trying, but had their hands ties).

    3. Syria is complex and I do not know any of the back story, but on the surface it appears we did little besides some early rhetoric on regime change, maybe we inflamed the situation, but it is unlikely that we changed the overall situation much if at all. Admittedly the whole "arming the rebels" was a joke, but in the end, short of a full scale Military intervention there is little we could or should have done.

    Parent

    Or as a Tweet (none / 0) (#130)
    by Nemi on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:05:05 PM EST
    sadly accurate put it recently:

    Right-wing media blows smoke for 25 years.

    Liberals and leftists in 2016:
    "Well, there's gotta be fire here somewhere."



    Parent
    Missed this (none / 0) (#108)
    by ragebot on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:54:15 AM EST
    No, we didn't miss this (none / 0) (#149)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 04:29:33 PM EST
    And again, given that "Operation Odyssey Dawn" -- the code name for the U.S. support mission to assist French and British military operations to enforce U.S. Resolution No. 1973 in Libya -- consisted of 110 Tomahawk missiles fired over a two-day period against the Khadafy regime's air and ground forces then threatening rebel-held Benghazi, Politico's inference that this tangential U.S. role in the French-led NATO intervention was somehow decisive in securing Khadafy's ouster from power is greatly overstating the actual case.

    In fact, it's pretty clear what Politico was trying to mine with this one sentence: "'Benghazi' has already become a right-wing byword for Clinton scandal, as resonant to the '10s as 'Vince Foster' was to the '90s."

    Of course, this article was written in the midst of the Republicans' umpteenth voyage to the fog-shrouded harbors of their own longstanding anti-Clinton delusions, which subsequently ran aground on the misty shores of their party's anti-Hillary hysteria, thanks to Select Committee Chair Trey Gowdy and his 11-hour nothingburger of a Benghazi hearing with the former Secretary of State. So for the most part, what you posted here is already quaint and obsolescent.

    Bu, hey, thanks for playing.

    Parent

    Subprime deja vu? (none / 0) (#16)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 06:01:08 AM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/hty9hvl

    T

    he auto loan business is booming - total auto loans in the U.S. are up 50% from 2010 to December 2015.
    But of the more than $1 trillion auto loans outstanding, Experian estimates that between $205 and $388 billion are subprime loans, with 15% to 20% of those loans securitized.

    We've been here before - though in much worse trouble - back in 2007

    The mortgage meltdown that triggered the Great Recession started with late payments, and right now subprime auto loans are starting to head down the same road.

    According to Fitch Ratings the 60 day delinquency rate (loans at least 60 days past due) on an index of securitized subprime auto loans just hit 5.16%. That's more than during the Great Recession and the highest level since 1996


    Sheila Bair, the former head of the FDIC from 2006 to 2011, just joined Avant's board, citing her long-held desire to make credit more widely available. But that, of course, is another story for another time.


    Parent
    Auto Loan Fiasco (none / 0) (#18)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:58:39 AM EST
    I was reading that auto loans were found to be a better bet than home mortgages for repayment, since people need their cars for working. It was only a matter of time before the banking ghouls figured out a new source of blood.

    Where are the politicians?  They are the head of the DNC, unfortunately.

    Parent

    Where (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:57:28 PM EST
    is the oracle of Burlington on this? Oh, that's right he's too busy playing "Doubting Thomas" and besides "break up the Big Securitised Auto loan Industry" just doesn't have a ring to it.

    Parent
    Who's the one-trick pony now? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:28:50 AM EST
    I can't find any Sanders positions on the sub prime auto loan issue. Nothing from Clinton either, but I do know that mega-Hillary backer and Chair of the DNC, Debbie Wasserman Schultz is all in with the auto loan industry, though.

    Parent
    Glad to see the Warriors win today (none / 0) (#2)
    by McBain on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 09:26:57 PM EST
    They tied the 1996 Chicago Bulls record with 72 wins in a season and have a chance to break it on Wednesday.  They also stopped the Spurs 39 game home winning streak by winning in San Antonio for the first time in 33 years.

    What the warriors have done the past two seasons is amazing.  My only gripe, as a long time fan, is their ticket prices are ridiculous.  Somehow, I could afford to go to games back in the 80s when I didn't have any money, but now I can't unless I want to sit in the nosebleed section.  

    Just wait until they move ... (none / 0) (#10)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:02:32 AM EST
    ... to their new Chase Arena complex in San Francisco's Marina District for the 2019-20 season. I heard that owner Steve Lacob is constructing a moat and drawbridge to keep out the riff-raff. (Here's an interesting article in New York Times Magazine about Lacob and the Warriors.)

    Even though I'm from L.A., I've never really cared for either the Lakers or Clippers. I was a longtime Seattle SuperSonics fan, but then new owner Clay Bennett and Oklahoma City poached them and I won't root for the Thunder just on principle. I'm partial now to the Sacramento Kings, who are moving downtown into their new Golden 1 Center next October.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I probably won't be a big Warrior (none / 0) (#31)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:04:59 AM EST
    fan when they move to SF. AS for Lacob and co., they made some great decisions but they also got lucky with Curry.  No one knew he was going to be the best player in the league.

    Parent
    ... the S.F. Marina District is, let's say, 15 years from now, when there's no more Curry & Co., and fans are faced with trekking to a locale and arena that's not exactly the easiest place in the city to access, particularly by public transportation. Currently, Warriors fans can get to Oracle Arena in Oakland by BART, and in fact it has its own BART station.

    Personally, I think that Lacob is making a big mistake in abandoning Oakland for a presently trendy and fashionable San Francisco address. There was a good reason why the former San Francisco Warriors eventually located across the bay in the first place.

    After all, one mustn't assume that the Warriors are going to remain magnificent in perpetuity. The Chicago Bulls have only enjoyed seven winning seasons since Michael Jordan departed 18 years ago. As for the once-vaunted L.A. Lakers, well, can we say "16 and 64," boys and girls?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The Warriors are the only pro basketball team (none / 0) (#96)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:00:59 PM EST
    in the bay area. They can pretty much do whatever they want and people will show up.  They were raising ticket prices during the Jason Caffey/ Larry Hughes era and still manged to sell out many games.  Perhaps they won't sell as many t-shirts and other items if the team stinks but they'll still be in a very good situation.  College basketball isn't big in the bay area. Their only competition is from the Sacramento Kings.

    Compare the Warriors situation to the A's, a team with with a better winning % than the W's over the years but who has to compete with the SF Giants.  

    Parent

    Until the Giants moved from Candlestick ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:18:51 AM EST
    ... in the late 1990s, the Oakland A's regularly outdrew them in attendance. And I'm old enough to remember when Horace Stoneman was prepared to move the Giants to Toronto in 1976 and sell the franchise to Labatt's Brewing Co. At one point, it looked like a done deal, until Walter O'Malley intervened and prevailed upon his fellow owners to allow for expansion to Toronto and Seattle the following year.

    I like the A's, and hope they can work out a deal to build a much-needed new stadium in Oakland. The Coliseum is definitely showing its age, even if it is still a fun and rowdy place to go watch a ball game.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    So what was his biggest mistake? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:25:57 AM EST


    Libya... Maybe, but Domestically: (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    • Believing he could reach across the isle and bring R's & D's together.  But not the biggest mistake, but one with long lasting ramifications to his signature legislation.

    • Not holding anyone responsible for the economic and housing collapse, and to some degree with housing, making it worse.  Included with that, hiring of WS related people.

    • Failure to, at the very least, investigate the previous admin for war crimes.

    • Drones


    Parent
    Good list, Scott (none / 0) (#155)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:10:45 PM EST
    I always thought that taking impeachment off the table for Bush was wrong. Just like Ford pardoning Nixon was wrong. It basically entrenches the idea that the President of the United States will not be held responsible for his actions (unless penis-related).

    Parent
    ... of former President Nixon, his stated intent was to compel Americans to re-focus their attention on some very serious issues which had gone unaddressed while the nation had been consumed by the Watergate scandal.

    Although Gerald Ford had assumed the presidency in August 1974 having first refused to consider a pardon for Richard Nixon, he began to reassess his options when his very first press conference, which he had called to offer some economic proposals, was instead peppered with reporters' questions about his predecessor's legal disposition, and whether or not the Justice Dept. was going to seek his indictment.

    As distasteful and regrettable as Ford's pardon of Nixon was, it nevertheless had the intended effect of forcing the country to move on from Watergate, given that it had left us effectively adrift in the respective realms of foreign and economic policy.

    And let's also remember that Nixon could have refused the pardon, since its acceptance meant that he legally assumed personal responsibility for his likely criminal behavior during his time in office. He accepted the pardon.

    President Ford was well aware of the enormous political risk such a pardon would pose to his standing as president. Indeed, his decision angered most everyone at the time, which was quite understandable given both what Nixon had just put this country through, and all the political turmoil which had remained in his turbulent wake. At that point, people wanted to see Nixon's head on a pike, and Ford's pardon had denied them that satisfaction. His own press secretary resigned in protest and disgust.

    The Nixon pardon probably compromised fatally any chance on Ford's part to be elected president in his own right two years hence. But then, so did Ford's decision five months later to allow South Vietnam to fall to Communist forces, rather than authorize further military intervention on behalf of a cause that was already long lost. That profound change in U.S. Cold War policy wound up fueling Ronald Reagan's right-wing insurgent campaign to topple him in the subsequent 1976 Republican presidential primaries.

    But to Ford's everlasting credit, he made two very tough but nevertheless decisive calls in both of these emotionally charged and highly controversial issues. And as even Sen. Edward Kennedy came to agree, Ford showed tremendous political courage by acting in what he considered to be in the nation's long-term best interests, even though those two decisions ultimately cost him his job.

    When Kennedy presented former President Ford with the Profile in Courage Award in 2001, he predicted -- as have many historians -- that Ford would eventually be vindicated by the verdict of history. Because even though his decisions proved to be highly unpopular with many people at the time, hindsight and perspective now show us that they were likely the right things to do, given the choices that were on the table at the time.

    As for the refusal of many Republicans to this day to recognize Richard Nixon's crimes for what they were, that wholesale and unreasonable denial of truth and reality is all on them, and not on Gerald Ford.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Just my two cents (none / 0) (#35)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:33:59 AM EST
    Presidents are often reduced to a single line in the view of some historians.  While this may not be fair Nixon is often pictured saying "I am not a crook" and Clinton is pictured saying "it depends on what the meaning of is is".

    In the interview Obama said "there is classified, and there is classified".  That may well be the way Obama is portrayed by historians.  

    Parent

    That's (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:04:36 PM EST
    the conservative outrage junkies statement du jour. It will be something else tomorrow and something different the next day.

    Parent
    Killing (and targeting) American ... (none / 0) (#125)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:47:01 AM EST
    citizens in the drone program without trial or even finding of fact.

    Parent
    That;s a big one (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:47:57 AM EST
    The President of the United States violating the due process clause of the Constitution in the name of national security.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton and BLM -- a valuable POV (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:19:33 AM EST
    Bill's recent defensive remarks... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:52:28 AM EST
    really sucked all the air out of his previous apology to the NAACP about the great harm done to the black community by the sinful Crime Bill.

    Make up your mind Bill.  

    Parent

    Well, kdog, when all is said & done (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:57:40 PM EST
    and all the takes are given, apologies made, explanations given, the real tell in this particular matter will be how the AA communities vote in Pennsylvania, New York, & New Jersey.
    (As you know, of course, now Senator Sanders voted for the 1994 crime bill.)

    Parent
    And as recently as 2006 (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:55:37 PM EST
    Had references to it on his website as pushing his "tough on come voting history"

    But most of his voters were still in middle school then so....

    Parent

    Now that is one splendid typo, (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Peter G on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:00:15 PM EST
    Howdy.

    Parent
    Oops (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:45:34 PM EST
    Do as I say (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:27:15 AM EST
    not how I do.

    The labor union that led the charge for a $15 minimum wage hike in cities across California is now moving to secure an exemption for employers under union contracts.

    The Los Angeles County Federation of Labor buried the exemption on the eighth page of its 12-page proposal for the Santa Monica City Council to review Tuesday while deciding whether to follow Los Angeles and increase the minimum wage.

    The loophole would allow employers with collective bargaining agreements to sidestep the wage hike and pay their union members below the proposed $15-per-hour minimum wage.



    The difference (none / 0) (#27)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37:48 AM EST
    is that Unions are collectively bargaining, so they have some power. If they bargain for a lower wage in exchange for better benefits, that is something they are deciding. The $15 minimum wage assumes no other benefits and no power.

    Parent
    So what benefits (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    are you speaking of??

    A Mickey D gift card??

    Parent

    UHHHH, let see, (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:40:16 PM EST
    1. paid sick leave
    2. paid holidays
    3. health insurance.

    That's just a start. Have you ever held a job in the private sector?

    Parent
    As well as arbitration or another sort of say (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Peter G on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:01:22 PM EST
    in employee discipline matters.

    Parent
    Outside of 10 years in Naval Aviation (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:47:31 AM EST
    I have never had a government job.

    How about you???

    I repeat. If the unions won't support $15./hour then they obviously don't give a hoot for the working man.

    And all those "benefits" you list? They came due to unions demanding them AND higher wages.

    Parent

    Wrong (none / 0) (#121)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:15:44 AM EST
    If the unions wanted benefits AND a higher wage, they wouldn't want to have flexibility with the $15 minimum wage law. Of course they care about the working man. They are FOR the $15 wage for non-union (that is pro-worker) and FOR flexibility for collective bargaining (that is pro-worker).

    How can you see that differently?

    Parent

    So let me understand (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:18:51 PM EST
    They are for the $15/hour for non union members...but not so much for the members.

    Parent
    Overall benefits!!!!! (none / 0) (#190)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:50:26 AM EST
    Many unions have opted for lower pay in return for better pension and/or healthcare benefits. Nonunion members don't get to negotiate, so they get a flat $15/hour wage as a minimum.

    C'mon, you can't be this dense.

    Parent

    Sorry, but if non union (none / 0) (#201)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 14, 2016 at 09:53:33 PM EST
    low end workers get a raise to $15.00 that dramatically improves the negotiating position of the union.

     

    Parent

    It benefits union coffers (none / 0) (#202)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Apr 14, 2016 at 10:05:02 PM EST
    Financially, it creates an incentive for non union hotels to unionize, and then they can pay their employees below the $15 minimum wage. So the union coffers are increased, by increasing their membership, but not the wages of their members.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#203)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 15, 2016 at 08:50:38 AM EST
    Health benefits (none / 0) (#38)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:38:03 PM EST
    Most likely health benefits, but perhaps other employment benefits (e.g. cutback of hours vs layoffs) that the union negotiates as best for its members.

    "The argument for a union exemption for minimum wage is that workers represented by unions have the ability to bargain for a combination of wages, benefits and working conditions that works best for them," says Chris Tilly, an urban planning professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/30/la-union-wants-to-be-exempt-from-15-minimum-wage.html

    The point is that ununionized workers have NO power to influence wages and benefits, so raising the minimum wage is one way to improve their economic well-being.

    Parent

    So to allow their members (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:41:30 AM EST
    the right to accept less than $15.00/hour instead of BOTH, the union tosses every other working poor person under the bus.

    Okay fine. You guys can defend that if you like but we all know it is wrong.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#122)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:17:28 AM EST
    The unions are not against the $15 minimum wage for the working poor person. They support the law...but want flexibility for themselves. I don't understand your logic.

    Parent
    Tonight in Denver, at the Odgen Theatre (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:57:19 AM EST
    HBO series Paradise Lost.. Thanks to (none / 0) (#30)
    by Cashmere on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:59:22 AM EST
    the individual that recommended the 3-part series filmed over nearly 20 years.  I could not stop watching.  What a tragic story in multiple ways.

    Also the 2013(?) doc 'West of Memphis' (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:18:02 AM EST
    which I watched over the weekend. You can see I've been a tad obsessed. This has more details about the post-conviction activities and investigations, and more footage of the WM3 right after release, and convincing (but graphic) experiments with turtle bites.

    Parent
    I started really liking (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:06:17 PM EST
    The Dixie Chicks because of their work on this case.   Then I learned to love the music.

    Parent
    I never paid them any attention until some friends (none / 0) (#92)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:52:06 PM EST
    got me to go to a concert. Wow, it was so fantastic. Truly memorable. I was a forever fan after that. Their brave reaction to the backlash against them in the Bush years made me love them as people as well as musicians. And Natalie involved in this case does not surprise me one bit.  Not ready to back down, not ready to play nice.

    Parent
    I took my daughter to see them (none / 0) (#97)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:18:33 PM EST
    in Madison Square Garden soon after the dust up. It was my lucky day. The country music stations got their audience all ruffled, so people were dumping tickets and I bought a pair at half price on ebay.

    Years later most know now what not so many knew then...No need to play nice, The Chicks were right.

    Parent

    Even the release of the WM3 (none / 0) (#32)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:07:56 AM EST
    from prison was far from satisfying.  

    Parent
    I was the one most recently (none / 0) (#33)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:11:45 AM EST
    but Howdy has been recommending it also. He also recommended the book called 'Devil's Knot' by the reporter that was seen briefly in the docs. I finished the audio book yesterday. It is well written and has a lot of little details that did not make it into the films. Highly recommend it too.

    Maybe take a break if you have blood pressure issues. It is all so infuriating. So glad to know they are free,but so angry that the real killer is free. These were the very worst of crimes and deserved better from law enforcement.

    Parent

    If ever there was a case that (none / 0) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:10:59 PM EST
    Begged for a real life Dexter Morgan this was it.

    Parent
    Yes, it seems that is the only hope (none / 0) (#91)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:45:12 PM EST
    All of a sudden I understand the superhero craze.

    Parent
    Bernie passes... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:58:17 PM EST
    the hot dog event in the "Who's a real NYer?" Olympics...mustard and kraut, like all real NYers.

    But I'm afraid Dr. Jane Sanders flunked with onions and (gasp!) ketchup.  Onions are NY approved, but not ketchup.  That's Nathan's/Dirty Water Dog Sabrett/Gray's Papaya blasphemy right there.  Only children under age 8 have a ketchup exemption.

    I'm the worst (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:00:57 PM EST
    I have a strict ketchup-only rule for hot dogs.

    My friends call me a 6 year old, my father threatens to disown me, still, there's nothing better than a ketchup-only hot dog.

    Parent

    RMN (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:23:06 PM EST
    I eat ketchup AND mustard on my dogs (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:06:51 AM EST
    Sometimes a few little onions too.

    Being from the Detroit area, of course I love a good coney dog too.

    Parent

    The only thing worse (none / 0) (#44)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:06:50 PM EST
    is ketchup on eggs.

    Parent
    I love (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:08:26 PM EST
    ketchup on eggs too!

    Parent
    I heard somewhere... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:18:48 PM EST
    that ketchup on eggs started as a US Military thing...the powdered eggs in the Army tasted so bad only ketchup made them edible, and it kinda stuck from there.  Could be an urban legend...either way I concur, that's nasty.  

    The only thing that should go on eggs is cheese, bacon/sausage/ham, and a whole lotta salt and pepper.  Maybe a smear of butter.

    Parent

    kdog: We have common ground (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    about ketchup & hot dogs (& some other things.)  Agreement, yay!  Ketchup on hot dogs: Boo.  A rule of nature: Mustard on hot dogs.

    Parent
    On the other hand (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:31:10 AM EST
    a little salsa on scrambled eggs is muy bueno.

    Parent
    Oh Man... (none / 0) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:45:12 PM EST
    ... I had a friend in school whose whole family drown their sunny side up eggs in apple cider vinegar.

    He had a huge family, which included older siblings, so I was always hungover and that is one of those smells you don't want to smell first thing after a good bender.
    --------------

    I don't eat chicken, never have, and when the whole waffles and chicken thing came out, I thought for years the badder had chicken bits in it.  I hate the smell and taste of chicken and I thought that is absolutely the foulest sounding thing one could eat.  Then I saw a little kid order them and they brought out waffles w/ chicken wings on the side.  

    Still gross in my book, but not as gross.

    Parent

    The only thing that should go on eggs.... (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:51:09 AM EST
    Kdog, you obviously have never enjoyed the delicious flavor of powdered eggs.

    Parent
    I guess you have to put kraut on your dogs (none / 0) (#50)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:01:07 PM EST
    when brats are not readily available...a problem we never had in the the midwest.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:37:42 PM EST
    that is what I was thinking. Kraut is for brats not dogs. I thought just mustard was a NY thing.

    Parent
    I'm the dog and mustard type (none / 0) (#64)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:22:19 PM EST
    but have been known to add some chili, cheese, and potato sticks on occasion.

    Parent
    Dog- mustard-pickle relish (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:55:59 PM EST
    that's it for me! Oh - if I am at home, a little meltie butter on the bun. Yum!

    Parent
    Oops (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:19:17 PM EST
    Just put an Orphan Black heads up in the Trump thread.

    Oh well.

    Parent

    I don't like hot dogs. (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:46:21 PM EST
    I never have and I never will. I freely admit that I'm in a distinct minority here, but from the time I was a child, I just didn't care for them at all. I think I was probably the only kid among my friends and classmates who didn't like them.

    As far as I'm concerned, the only things a hot dog is good for are as an easily-prepared kids' meal, and as a microwave oven-induced mystery meat sculpture to entertain the youngsters.

    (My wife thinks that's sick, but honestly, I've never known a kid whose eyes didn't light up in fascination at the result, as though I had just shown him or her the coolest thing in the world that moment. And of course, you just know they'e going to try it at home. Cue evil laugh.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not understanding this (none / 0) (#79)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:38:06 PM EST
    Are you kidding? (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:41:14 PM EST
    This is Awsum.  Hit um where they live.

    Parent
    And if people ask why, we can claim as our excuse that we're always confusing one for the other.

    Parent
    I would restrict the straight sites (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:59:29 PM EST
    And make the gay ones free

    Parent
    Looking forward to the Jackie Robinson (none / 0) (#94)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:08:40 PM EST
    documentary tonight on PBS.  I loved Ken Burns's "Baseball" years ago and I expect his new effort to be of the same caliber.  

    I hope it goes into detail about the Negro Leagues. There were several great black baseball payers who never got a chance to play in the major leagues, or like Satchel Paige, only got to when they were well past their prime.

    Robinson wasn't the best black player.  That honor either belonged to Paige or the slugger Josh Gibson.  Baseball may have been Robinson's 4th best sport behind football, basketball and track and Field.  He was an amazing athlete who Branch Rickey felt had what it took to withstand the harsh treatment of breaking the color barrier.

    In one of my baseball leagues I sometimes swing a modified  Jackie Robinson bat.  Bats were thicker and heavier back in the 40s/50s.  I like it because it's harder to break than today's lighter, thinner handle versions.

    My guess is (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:20:56 AM EST
    The guys who passed the bathroom legislation will be the ones to suffer frm p0rn withdrawal most.

    the comments you are replying to were (none / 0) (#182)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM EST
    deleted for not using an asterisk or the "0" like you did.

    Parent
    Love the Framing... (none / 0) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:46:24 AM EST
    ... bathroom legislation.

    Anyone catch this interview with (none / 0) (#127)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:35:20 AM EST
    Jane Sanders about their taxes?

    She say she uses TurboTax but she has to go home to find her taxes? Do they not know they can log on to any computer with internet access and download all of their filings? Or else, they can just go to the IRS website and request copies.
    This whole thing is getting weirder by the minute.

    From the NYDN

    Last summer, the Democratic front-runner disclosed all the federal income tax returns that she and her husband Bill have filed dating back to 2000...
    Yet none of the other presidential candidates still in the race -- in either party -- has released a single complete tax return... not even Bernie Sanders, the insurgent populist who has made tax fairness, financial reform and personal probity so central to his campaign... As an advocate of honest government, he owes more to his supporters, his campaign and the public.


    Money (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:50:28 AM EST
    magazine is claiming that Bernie and Jane are millionaires. So if that is right then there is a very good reason they're being so evasive about the tax returns.

    Parent
    Honestly, it would not bother me in (none / 0) (#132)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:45:44 PM EST
    the least if they were millionaires, aside from the hypocrisy of him railing against millionaires.  
    In fact, given their income for the past 25 years, it would bother me more if they weren't!

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:59:14 PM EST
    the problem is that if he's exposed as a millionaire he'll be exposed as a "fraud" or a "con man" to his supporters.

    Parent
    He probably took advantage (none / 0) (#193)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:54:39 AM EST
    Of some loopholes, paid taxes Mitt Romney style

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#195)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 10:55:04 AM EST
    he acts like there is something there whether it is or not but yeah, some analysts are saying he paid low taxes for his income range and took over the average amount of deductions.

    Parent
    Net Worth... (none / 0) (#137)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:19:56 PM EST
    ... isn't going to be on his returns.

    But the notion that someone who pulls in ~350k/yr at near retirement age isn't a millionaire would be troubling to say the least.

    Not the stuff of people who want to run an entire economy.  I can't imagine there are many college educated couples nearing retirement that don't have a million dollars.  That hardly makes them the target of Sanders rhetoric, even if technically they are millionaires.

    That's $50k a year for a couple if they live to be 85 and retire at 65, obviously compounding interest pushes that number up a lot, but a million bucks for a couple is not the stuff of lavish lifestyles.

    Yes, I know Sanders is well into his 70's.

    Your silliness on all things Sanders is just getting old.  Last week it was he's not good with money, and that is bad, this week if he is good with it, that is bad.

    What would be an appropriate amount for Sanders to have as him and his wife's net worth that would satisfy you ?

    Parent

    Now (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:33:38 PM EST
    we're redefining millionaires? This is just as I figured. Millionaires are fine as long they have the last name "Sanders".

    Honestly I don't care but Bernie is the one who has been yammering about millionaires for months now not me.

    Parent

    Funny... (none / 0) (#141)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:54:13 PM EST
    ... you brought it up and that, of course, is sanders fault.  And I am positive you can distinguish between the people sanders is discussing and people who have barely a million dollars in their retirements.

    I can't even believe this needs explaining, it's like a conversation with Jim.

    Your beef, as far as I can tell, is that there isn't a term in the English language more precise than 'millionaires' to describe people who have more money than they will ever need.

    Would you prefer Sanders address these folks by a more appropriate classification, something like 'The plus 22 million dollar net worth folks' ?

    Like my other question, what exactly would satisfy you ?  Because as far as I can tell the answers to both questions is 'There is no right answer when discussing Sanders'.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 03:21:13 PM EST
    Bernie doesn't define anything and that's part of his problem. Wall Street is fraudulent in his mind it seems. He paints it all with a big brush and that is what's the problem. It's also lowest common denominator politics which doesn't delineate between "good" millionaires and "bad" millionaires. To me it just sounds like all millionaires are bad people from what he says. Just like all of Wall Street is bad.  

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 03:22:30 PM EST
    actually if Sanders was more specific it might help but he's apparently not interested in doing that.

    Parent
    What?? I think my comment was (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:44:19 PM EST
    Your silliness on all things Sanders is just getting old.  Last week it was he's not good with money, and that is bad, this week if he is good with it, that is bad.

    pretty clear.
    But just in case, here is my position
    not good with money = bad
    good with money = I am glad.
    As far as I am concerned, if you want to be POTUS, you should at least be able to demonstrate that you can handle your own finances.

    As for his net worth not being on his returns, you don't say!
    For now, I would be happy if Mr Transparency/Tax fairness would release his taxes and not give us the bull sh!t excuses. Talk about silliness.

    Parent

    Agreed Somewhat... (none / 0) (#142)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 03:10:53 PM EST
    ... in that if he had a chance, we should have his returns, and he doesn't, and like CG mentioned, he won't.  Why?  

    And yes, anyone wanting to have a large role in the economy IMO better have good credit and proof that they understand how money works, which means some net worth.  I know they all have special credit, but it still needs to be said.

    I only mentioned it because the comments seem to indicate that tax returns were going to proclaim sanders a possible millionaire.

    My point was more about this atmosphere where sanders is wrong no matter what.  One day he is too tall, the next too small, and the next average size sucks.  It's like the GOP and having two sets of talking points ready so no matter what Obama does/says, it is wrong.

    Even if he releases his returns, there isn't going to be any surprises if he is doing them at home.  For the zillionth time, to be clear, I am not backing Sanders, never did.  I just can't stand the reasoning around here lately, which has basically boiled down to HRC=good, Sanders=bad.

    Parent

    I can't speak for the others here (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 04:05:14 PM EST
    but it is not this simple "HRC=good, Sanders=bad" for me.

    I like HRC, warts and all. The hawkishness worries me and I sometimes wonder if it is because as a woman she has to show she is as tough as the guys. Of course, I am speculating and for all I know this is just who she is.
    IMO, the fact that she has dealt with all the cr@p that has been flung at her all these years and is still putting herself out there, shows tremendous courage and fortitude. Her intelligence is undeniable. I was struck by her grace and humility when she lost the nomination to Obama and how hard she then worked to support him. All of these are character traits I want to see in a leader. The hawkishness is not enough to put me off all the positives.

    As I have mentioned before the Wall Street money is not a negative in my book. If anything, as one of the most famous, accomplished women in the world, I am glad to see that she can command high fees. There still aren't enough women who command high salaries/fees and so I am glad for every single one of them that makes it in to the big leagues. They pave the way for the rest of us.

    While I was aware of some of Sanders' positions before this race started, I really did not know much about him. I will be honest and say that I am not liking what I see. I don't know if it is the people he is surrounding himself with or if they are only reflecting their candidate but I really expected more from someone who has been held up as a beacon of virtue compared to Clinton.

    Parent

    Maybe because (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 04:13:49 PM EST
    lately his campaign has boiled down to Bernie=good, Hillary=bad, there is absolutely zero doubt about that. Sanders doesn't even try to hide it, just claims he has the right because "she started it first.".

    I for one had respect for Bernie, I am actually closer ideologically to him then Hillary, I just happen to think that Hillary would make a much better President. I often argued my point strongly but never went out of my way to deride him or his supporters. Now I've had enough, Bernie and his supporters have lost all my respect.

    BTW: how does it feel to have your candidate picked apart for every minor misstep, us old Hillary hands know you ain't seen SH**t.

    BTW2: What the heck do you expect anyway" If Bernie did not want us to speculate on his finances, he could just release the returns. thanks Bernie for giving us "haters" something to chew on. It's so far from his normal MO it's really hard not to wonder.

    Parent

    IMO (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 04:39:19 PM EST
    Bernie's campaign shows the huge pitfalls of running a Nader style purity campaign.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by christinep on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 05:37:45 PM EST
    it is more about ostensible hypocrisy than anything else.  Short version: When you condemn or castigate others about being "millionaires & billionaires" you had better make sure that you are clean.  That especially applies to Sanders ... in view of his whole campaign theme.  No more, no less.

    Parent
    Exactly. This is the issue (none / 0) (#198)
    by Towanda on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 05:42:47 PM EST
    -- the potential hypocrisy.

    Parent
    Major portion of their net worth.... (none / 0) (#147)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 04:12:51 PM EST
    They own a home valued at approximately 750K.

    Parent
    There are reports (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:21:04 PM EST
    Forbes, I believe, who are saying the Sanders own two homes (one on Bermont and ine in DC), and they just sold a condo, which means they had THREE homes.

    I'm also guessing they have investments in things that would go against his message.

    There's also ramblings of improprieties with Jane Sanders' work at a college in Vermont. Who knows if there's anything there?

    And for the record, I have all my tax returns back to 1986 and I could get them for you in about 20 seconds - they ate in the bottom drawer of my filing cabinet next to my desk at home. (And yes, I know you only need to keep 7 years, but I've never gotten around to shredding them, and over the years, I've actualky had a few times where I needed info from old returns).

    Parent

    Who knows, indeed. (none / 0) (#165)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:39:34 PM EST
    People love to spread rumors about candidates and their families during the election season, so I wouldn't put too much credence in the backroom whispers about Jane Sanders.

    Nor will I begrudge Sen. and Mrs. Sanders the fact that they're failing to live up to their fans' general perception of them, by refusing to liquidate their assets and squirrel away the cash in a couple of mattresses stashed in their basement.

    ;-D

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#166)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:50:16 PM EST
    get the feeling that Sander's doesn't want anyone look too closely at their finances, not because of anything illegal, but something that might be glaringly off message.

    I also keep circling back to Jane, her employment history after she got fired from Burlington College is very sketchy. In the one partial return from 2014 she is shown as making less than 5,000. I have read reports that he has hired her as paid campaign staff in the past and I am beginning to wonder if he did not pay her some big bucks during is High priced(relatively) Senate runs, again not illegal nor uncommon, but it gets a little dicey condemning big money in politics if you are juicing your wife with it. Of course this all speculation, probably irresponsible, but fun.


    Parent

    That's relatively easy to find out, ... (none / 0) (#173)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:20:59 PM EST
    ... if one examines Sen. Sanders' campaign finance reports on file with the Federal Election Commission.

    Personally, I don't think there's anything all that sinister here. Personally, I think that any true believer who would feel betrayed by a disclosure that Bernie and Jane Sanders can play politics just like everyone else, is likely someone whose strings are already wound too tight for the orchestra in the first place.

    When I said the other day that we need to dial back the personal attacks, I meant everyone on BOTH sides of this increasingly causitc primary battle. Given the relatively modest size of the Sanders family's personal finances, the issue is of no real concern to me, and so I'm inclined to give them whatever benefit of doubt they might need regarding some of these recent (and politically motivated) allegations.

    Bernie and Jane Sanders really don't strike me as the type of people who are dishonest in that regard, and if I had to speculate I'd say that right now, they're simply trying to carve out a zone of personal privacy for themselves.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I've read the rumors/allegations (none / 0) (#176)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 07:50:56 PM EST
    about Jane Sanders' time at Burlington College, too.
    But, for me it really does not matter if they are true or not, since she is not running for President.
    I am not going to hold Bernie responsible for any mistakes his wife may or may not have made.

    Parent
    We own two homes out here that together are worth almost $1.3 million on the open market. Our townhouse on Oahu has more than tripled in value in the 22 years since we first bought it.

    Given that Sen. and Mrs. Sanders are older adults, I'm not at all surprised that their net worth is likely over $1 million. Being a millionaire on paper certainly doesn't mean what it used to mean back in the day, when most of us were growing up, because our biggest assets are likely the homes in which we live. And net worth doesn't equal cash on hand.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    He can be evasive about his tax returns (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 01:35:07 PM EST
    because he's never going to have to supply his tax returns. He won't be the Dem nominee and thus will never face the media scrutiny for not supplying them.

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    Yeah, I know. Just wanted to highlight (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 02:50:48 PM EST
    the double standards and the hypocrisy.
    As for this "He won't be the Dem nominee", it won't be for lack of trying to change the rules in his favor.

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    OMG! Is nothing sacred? (none / 0) (#160)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:54:48 PM EST
    Some 45 years after it was first released, Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" -- one of THE most iconic and ubiquitous rock anthems of our generation -- will now be the subject of forthcoming civil trial, thanks to Federal Judge Gary Klausner's ruling today in a lawsuit for copyright infringement brought against the band by the estate of late Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, which alleges that songwriter Jimmy Page poached his song's intro from Wolfe's 1968 song "Taurus."

    Granted, this is not exactly ranked up there in matters of importance. But speaking for myself only, I would sure appreciate an explanation from one of our resident legal minds as to why the statute of limitations is inapplicable in this particular case, given that we're talking about two songs that have 93 years' worth of media play between them.

    (I chose Heart's cover of "Stairway" rather than the Led Zeppelin's overplayed original version because in addition to forging their own unique path in rock music, Ann and Nancy Wilson are true aficionados of the work of Page & Plant, and they have also established Heart as arguably the best Zeppelin cover band EVAH!)

    Aloha.

    More evidence saturated fat and cholesterol (none / 0) (#180)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 08:49:05 PM EST
    Aren't bad for you
    The vegetable oil diet lowered cholesterol levels but it didn't improve heart disease rates or overall survival. More curiously, participants who experienced a greater reduction in blood cholesterol actually had a higher risk of death.

    How much longer will doctors continue to tell people to eat less fat and to take drugs to lower their cholesterol?  

    There's nothing wrong with red meat, butter and whole milk if comes from healthy animals.    


    Oh dear (none / 0) (#192)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 09:51:50 AM EST
    Everything in moderation.

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