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Monday Open Thread

Here's a new open thread, sorry it's so late in coming. All topics welcome.

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    Happy 47th Anniversary (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 04:50:17 PM EST
    of Woodstock.

    Omg (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 04:51:42 PM EST
    I'm so old

    Parent
    That reminds me of an SNL parody film ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:28:06 PM EST
    ... from 1976, "The Acid Generation: Where Are They Now?", a blast from the future. One of the elderly space-cases in the film reminisces about getting stoned and seeing Hendrix's performance at Woodstock as though "it were only yesterday." 40 years ago, that bit was hilarious. Now, it seems rather prescient.

    Parent
    Summer 1969 (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:43:08 PM EST
    I had just graduated from high school.   I had a ride.  I could have gone.  I passed being responsible to my summer job that I could not get off from to prepare for college in the fall.

    I don't spend a lot f time on regret.  Waste of time.  That is one thing I, to this day, deeply regret.

    Otoh, wasn't meant to be.

    Parent

    I was 8 years old back then. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:26:57 PM EST
    By the time The Who and Jefferson Airplane hit the stage on Saturday night, it would've been way past my bedtime.

    Here's the Woodstock setlist. Gawd, that really was a magical time in rock history. They certainly don't do music festivals like this any more.

    ;-D

    Parent

    My favorite Woodstock story (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 12:38:38 PM EST
    is one Alvin Lee told about being nominated to go into the crowd to find cigarettes for the folks backstage. He said "I couldn't find any cigarettes, but I came back with twelve joints."

    Parent
    We are stardust, we are golden (none / 0) (#136)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 12:51:44 PM EST
    We are billion year old carbon.

    And we got to get ourselves back to the garden

    Parent

    By 1969 I'd been in aspen (none / 0) (#174)
    by fishcamp on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:27:52 PM EST
    for ten years, just left ski racing and went to work for ABC.  I think those years were great for most of us, even new crawlers.

    Parent
    We (me, husband, and 1-yr. old) (none / 0) (#192)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 07:03:05 PM EST
    watched the Woodstock movie at a drivein in Ann Arbor with a speaker on the driver's window and another on the passenger window.  Winter in A2 is cold!

    Parent
    My story is very much the same, Howdy (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:34:50 PM EST
    On summer job after sophomore year of college. I had a ride, could have gone. Was too responsible to ditch work. And one of few big decisions of my youth that I regret.

    Parent
    We are the same age, Peter G (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:19:24 PM EST
    with the same story.

    But I don't regret it.  I worked my way through college, so I desperately needed to rack up work hours, with tuition due only a few weeks later.  

    If we had the tuition-payment plans today, with payment in installments, on credit cards . . . nah, I was too responsible.  And I had endured more than my share of camping out, by then, in the rain, anyway.

    Parent

    Let that be a lesson to the kids... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:02:50 AM EST
    Even responsibility is best served in moderation. There is a time and place for irresponsibility.

    Lesson learned Gents, lesson learned.

    I was but a gleam in Pops eye in '69, but we were all there in spirit. None of the festivals I enjoy today would exist without Woodstock.

    Time to wake up to a little Ten Years After, 47 years after.

    Go on home Boys & Girls.


    Parent

    When Woodstock happened (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:24:09 AM EST
    I was 7 months old.  Probably just learning to crawl.

    Parent
    This TIMES thing about Manafort (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 04:58:50 PM EST
    Seem quite interesting


    Secret Ledger in Ukraine Lists Cash for Donald Trump's Campaign Chief

    And Mr. Manafort's presence remains elsewhere here in the capital, where government investigators examining secret records have found his name, as well as companies he sought business with, as they try to untangle a corrupt network they say was used to loot Ukrainian assets and influence elections during the administration of Mr. Manafort's main client, former President Viktor F. Yanukovych.

    Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych's pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine's newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau. Investigators assert that the disbursements were part of an illegal off-the-books system whose recipients also included election officials.

    In addition, criminal prosecutors are investigating a group of offshore shell companies that helped members of Mr. Yanukovych's inner circle finance their lavish lifestyles, including a palatial presidential residence with a private zoo, golf course and tennis court. Among the hundreds of murky transactions these companies engaged in was an $18 million deal to sell Ukrainian cable television assets to a partnership put together by Mr. Manafort and a Russian oligarch, Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of President Vladimir V. Putin.
    ......

    Mr. Manafort did not respond to interview requests or written questions from The New York Times. But his lawyer, Richard A. Hibey, said Mr. Manafort had not received "any such cash payments" described by the anti-corruption officials.

    I especially like that he did not receive any "cash" payments.   12.7 million would be a really big brown paper bag

    Will Manafort be in security briefings (none / 0) (#7)
    by Towanda on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:11:31 PM EST
    with Trump?  Probably so, and the briefings start this week, so I read.

    Terrifying as it is that Trump might blurt out something that ought not be blurted, there is something more worrisome about briefing Putin, excuse me, Manafort.

    Parent

    Wondering (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:14:45 PM EST
    If he paid tax on that money.

    Parent
    Hi All - I am on my sabbatical cross country trip! (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Cashmere on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:11:40 PM EST
    I have driven from Portland, OR and made it in to Manhattan today (then to Philadelphia where I am now).  This is a "Taste of America" trip for me.  I skipped heading up to Boston and New England as I have been there previously.  I have my dog, Cashmere, with me, and my husband will join me a week from this Thursday for the return trip (I will be in Texas then).  I am having an amazing time.  I have seen The Tetons, the Badlands, Crazy  Horse and Mt. Rushmore, The Corn Palace!! (heehee), walked the amazing stone bridge in Minneapolis, explored rural SE Wisconsin which is lovely, Chicago, Falling Water (great tour), Manhattan...  and there is plenty more to come.  Here is my facebook page if anyone wants to check out the pics.  https://www.facebook.com/nancy.zelick.3

    Forgot to mention (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Cashmere on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:14:31 PM EST
    Niagara (and Ontario by the Lake), upstate New York, Notre Dame and Cornell  (visited with some of my former colleagues who are now professors there)...  anyway, such a fabulous country!


    Parent
    Just took a quick look at your FB page... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:25:51 PM EST
    Your photos are wonderful, you have a great eye!

    Parent
    Thank you! I am just using (none / 0) (#25)
    by Cashmere on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:32:37 PM EST
    my iPhone -- I have other cameras, but this is always the quickest in a pinch!

    Parent
    I love road trips (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:30:10 PM EST
    I really love road trips.  I used to do it a lot when I was going back and forth between LA and Arkansas.  It's been a while but I'm in the process of planning one.  Mine will be west of the Mississippi.  I've been shopping for various kinds of campers.  Im also getting a new vehicle do I was investigating a truck and a cab over camper.  But I think I'm moving toward more of an SUV and a very small towable.  There are some very cool ones.

    little guy

    scamp

    casita


    Parent

    I really like (none / 0) (#28)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:53:57 PM EST
    The Little Guy. I love the looks of it. No idea how comfortable it would be on a road trip, but it sure is cute.

    Parent
    They really are (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:00:05 PM EST
    especially the Silver Shadow retro line

    But the don't have bathrooms.  I think I really want a bathroom.  The smallest of the other two brands are very cute too.

    Parent

    As someone (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:29:57 PM EST
    who had done a ton of camping my entire life I will tell you to get the bathrooms. Oh, it is so worth it not to have to stumble to the bathroom in the middle of the night.

    Parent
    My feelings exactly (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:38:04 PM EST
    Little guy is coming out with a new line, or rather an old one, Scottie next year.  They will probably be very cool and they will have b-rooms I'm sure.

    The other thing for anyone interested is what m finding is there are a lot of these around used for a fraction of what they cost new.  And they are often in incredibly good shape.  I think the reason is they usually don't get used that much.  Even if it's 10 years old it could have been on 10 trips.

    I am now focusing on used. They are everywhere.  RV sites, eBay, Craigslist etc.

    I just looked at a 2002 13 ft scamp for 4500.

    Parent

    Be very careful with Craigslist. (none / 0) (#34)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:40:00 PM EST
    I know someone who thought he was buying a used camper and ended up losing $8,000. And no camper.

    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:46:46 PM EST
    I bought a classic class b camper van (1978) on eBay in 2000.  It was awsum.  I drove it across the country a half dozen times and sold it for more than I paid for it.

    Parent
    Definitely get a bathroom. (none / 0) (#32)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:36:48 PM EST
    The Scamp looks nice. Comfortable for two; very nice for just one.

    Parent
    1+dogs (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:49:55 PM EST
    Perfect for 1+dogs. (none / 0) (#37)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:13:02 PM EST
    A friend of mine had somehting like this (none / 0) (#144)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 03:51:13 PM EST
    Winnebago ERA a while back. I borrowed it for a weekend and loved it! Very easy to drive, maneuverable in camp sites, and plenty of room for me and my dog. Could have brought another human along too :-)

    I can easily seeing myself getting a used one in retirement and taking my trips that way. I don't like the idea of towing something.

    Parent

    I mentioned up there^ (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 04:20:27 PM EST
    That I had a similar thing for a while.  I loved it to but it comes with all the headaches of maintaining a vehicle.  Great to borrow.  Less so to own.

    Parent
    Exactly. My friend only had it (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:31:49 PM EST
    for a couple of years. I was lucky to get to use it when I did!

    Funny story...I pulled in to a campsite, stepped out of the door, and promptly tripped over a log that I had parked near. Lucky it was not my last road trip.

    Parent

    You are right. Towing is a thing. (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:54:44 PM EST
    But those tiny things are really quite easy and safe to tow.  Not at all like the 30ft things.  

    Still.  That's the reason as I mentioned I was, and am to a tiny extent, considering getting a cab over camper for a truck.  I like them.  I like not towing.  I like being able to remove it and have a normalish vehicle.  But.

    To be safe it needs to be at least a 3/4 ton truck.  Most pickups are 1/2 ton.  Which means it's going to be bigger more expensive to buy and less fuel efficient

    but they are very cool.

    Parent

    Towing becomes easy after time. (none / 0) (#162)
    by fishcamp on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 07:47:29 AM EST
    I've been towing large and small boats around for years and by the second day you can back it up like a pro.  Now with rear view cameras it's even easier.  Some vehicles cameras tilt down to show the hitch and make hookup simple.  Cabover pickup campers are fine, but take time to set up and then remove.  I prefer to just unhook my trailer and drive off looking for a boat drink place.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 07:59:59 AM EST
    All of that.  But the other thing about cab overs is that you can still pull a trailer.  With, for example, a motorcycle or watercraft.  Or both.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 08:02:51 AM EST
    The new ones with the power jacks on the four corners are really easy to take on and off.   Almost as easy as a trailer and it gets leveled in the process.

    Parent
    Power jacks sounds cool Howdy. (none / 0) (#177)
    by fishcamp on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:40:59 PM EST
    Didn't know about those.  I've driven many vehicles;  Peterbuilts, lowboys, refrigerated, dump trucks and more.  I've never driven or worse backed up a tandem trailer.  It's always strange, when in California, seeing trucks towing two types of fun, going in all directions on weekends.  They take play time to a serious level out there.  By the way horse trailers are the worst.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#178)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 01:27:09 PM EST
    Not tandem.  Two objects.  Side by side.  One small trailer.  If you have both a motorcycle and a small watercraft (not a boat a ski doo - I do) why wouldn't you want to take both on a vacation?

    Not saying I would.  But I might.  I just looked at a small trailer that hauls both.  Side by side.  It's quite small.    I have a trailer that hauls either.  

    Parent

    Niagara-on-the-Lake? (none / 0) (#26)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:35:59 PM EST
    Yes - My bad -- Niagara on the Lake! (none / 0) (#40)
    by Cashmere on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:17:47 PM EST
    Yes - My bad -- Niagara on the Lake!  Such a sweet place.  Can't believe I made that mistake :)

    Parent
    I went there for a day (none / 0) (#41)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:24:04 PM EST
    a few years back when running in Toronto. It's a great little place.

    Parent
    And in Philly now (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:26:21 PM EST
    where we were earlier this summer, I got a great Philly cheesesteak sandwich on South Street -- and a great colonial meal at history City Tavern, on the way to Independence Hall.

    And my spouse, a Poe fan, is so happy that I found that across the street from our hotel is the public library with the stuffed raven -- Dickens' stuffed raven, actually -- that inspired Poe.  

    Parent

    Did you get to the Poe House in Philly (none / 0) (#117)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 09:43:08 PM EST
    maintained by the National Park Service?
       So sorry you didn't have Jeralyn put you directly in touch with me when you came to Philly. My wife and I would love to have met up with you and the Poe-loving husband. We are always eager to show off the city and its attractions. (Fort Wilson is my secret fave.) Of course, for a historian like you, Philly must have been a dream come true. Was Elizabeth Boggs playing harpsichord at City Tavern the evening you ate there? She provided the music for our wedding, 40 years ago next week.

    Parent
    No, we ran out of time (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:51:30 PM EST
    as the main reason for being there was a wedding.  And we did City Tavern at lunchtime, sans music.

    But we will be back, because I loved every minute of the little time that we had for me to, yes, revel in the history.  (Okay, and the cheesesteak sandwich.) (And okay, I did not love the day wasted by the hotel, owing to forgetting to move us from the room with no air conditioning.)  (And okay, I also did not love the time in cabs, also without air conditioning -- in 95-degree heat.  What the heck?  And then I read that's a thing there, despite laws requiring a/c in cabs.)

    Hearing the Independence Hall bell toll, as I have only heard on audio in videos . . . well, I was moved.  As I also was in watching the crowds coming to the site, such a marvelous mix of faces from every ethnicity across the country.    

    So, we will be back, because there was so much more to see.  For me to have to hurry past historic landmark signs?  That's a first, as my family could attest (with some funny stories).  But with a historic landmark sign every ten feet, well. . . .  

    And I will remember to message you when we do, Peter! as locals helping us to figure out which of the many things to see would be wonderful.

    Parent

    Next time, make a reservation to see (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 11:18:21 AM EST
    Barnes Collection in it's new location.

    Parent
    Or we can take you (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 20, 2016 at 03:50:03 AM EST
    with guest passes on our membership.

    Parent
    So glad you saw the Driftless Area (none / 0) (#96)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:21:52 PM EST
    in SE Wisconsin.  So beautiful.  I love the Great River Road along the Mississippi, the ancient effigy mound sites, the old highways to get there and back, like Highway 11, and so much more there.

    Parent
    So, local boy Jonathan Cabral advances (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 12:12:37 AM EST
    to the Semis in the 110 hurdles.
       
    Johnathan Cabral Canada 13.63s


    Just like ya taught him... (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:06:10 AM EST
    woo hoo!

    Parent
    Bummed that NBC didn't show his heat. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 09:59:57 AM EST
    They showed all the other heats.

    Parent
    Good 'ol NBC... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:22:45 AM EST
    it's not NBC Olympic coverage if everyone isn't bummed out by it.

    Parent
    He made the finals! 13.41 (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:47:52 PM EST
    Great race, great runner, (none / 0) (#118)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 09:56:04 PM EST
    6th place in the OLympics! Congrats!

    Parent
    Saw it too... (none / 0) (#132)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:55:54 AM EST
    Valiant effort, great show at the games for the TL-connected hurdler.

    Just .35 ticks from Gold.

    Parent

    Thanks guys, very exciting! (none / 0) (#134)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 11:29:39 AM EST
    Here are a couple more of "mine" to look for in Tokyo 2020:

    Tara Davis

    TJ Brock

    Parent

    Funniest dam* (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 11:05:26 AM EST
    thing I have heard in a while.

    At the gym, the guy behind me is lifting weights and looks up at the t.v. on the wall.  He (a Trump supporter) sees a CNN (all the t.v.s used to be tuned to Fox but no more for some reason)chyron  that says:  Trump says Obama and Hillary founded ISIS.

    This guy says with disgust, "Come on, Trump.  Dumbas*."  

    The people are a not falling for the clown.  

    That's funny MKS, (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by fishcamp on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    since my gym guys are exactly the same, except they say there's no one to vote for.  We've been through it so many times that I just look at them, and don't even have to say Hillary.  We're back to talking about fishing, boats, cars.  And the constitution is a daily topic.  The lawyer explains the law .

    By the way my ACL Constitunial pamphlet is back ordered until they print 100,000 more, and send mine on Sept. 17th.  This is the version the gold star Muslim father held up on tv.  The Amazon version has a Mormon explanation of the constitution.  They are also sold out.  It will be good to read, since I certainly didn't learn much about it 50 years ago in school.

    Parent

    The republicans (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:51:57 PM EST
    around here are the same with the same whine: there's nobody to vote for. Then there's also the people that are excited to vote for Trump. It seems their numbers appear to be less than originally thought here in GA.

    Parent
    I am fine if they all don't (none / 0) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 08:08:07 AM EST
    Show up to vote for any Conservative in November. If I lived in a swing state I would throw an eff the vote party for grieving Conservatives, just to inspire them more deeply

    Parent
    I don't personally know any Tr*mp voters (none / 0) (#66)
    by vml68 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:20:26 PM EST
    but my husband told me that one of his colleagues who had said he was voting for Tr*mp after watching the Republican Convention has now decided he won't.
    This guy is educated, high income and has 2 adopted black children. Definitely, not someone I would ever have taken for a Tr*mp voter.

    Parent
    The Annual McArab Family Reunion... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:56:06 PM EST
    is this weekend.  Now I don't do ZuckerbergBook but according to dear old moms several of my cousins are still all up on the Trump train.

    The chop-busting should be especially epic this year...I'm brushing up on my zingers.  I should invest in some index cards.

    "Cuz X, I can see why you dig Trump, what are you on your third bankruptcy?"

    "Cuz Y, I knew you were damn ugly but I didn't know you were damn stupid too".

    "Uncle Z, you're voting for Trump too?  I woulda guessed you too young for dementia."

    Parent

    Just watching the LA floods (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:01:24 PM EST
    and I can't help but remember the venom that was spouted at a President who just flew over the damage caused by Katrina by many here on TalkLeft.

    Katrina, however, was a different story.  That was here, on our own turf, and I think a light went on for a lot of people and allowed them to take the true measure of the president - they looked at the totality of the Bush presidency - that iconic photo of him observing the devastation from Air Force 1 pretty much summing it up - and found it severely wanting.

    Link

    Has Obama visited? Flew over?


    He acted quickly. (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:27:06 PM EST
    So did W (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:46:24 PM EST
    And your point is what?

    That Bush should have immediately gone there but its okay if Obama doesn't even do a fly over

    lol

    Parent

    W did not act quickly (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    And in fact told Ft Rucker it had to stand down. Everyone was preparing to leave and stage in Mobile. Any other President, they would have been long gone on their way to NOLA. They were all forced to just stand here and watch people die day after day after day.

    Parent
    The official death toll from ... (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 02:05:46 PM EST
    ... the New Orleans levee breaks and subsequent flood, as far as I can determine, was 1,833. How many of those victims could have been saved, had FEMA Director Michael Brown and agency officials acted in a timely, responsible and competent manner?

    It was painfully obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that state and local resources in Louisiana would be very quickly overwhelmed by the sheer size of Hurricane Katrina and the magnitude of the resultant disaster. That the Bush administration would simply stand by and watch it predictably unfold during those critical first few days, completely detached from the horrific reality of the situation, is simply unconscionable even eleven years after the fact.

    Speaking for myself only, I consider his administration's amoral response to the NOLA tragedy to be W's most unfathomable and unforgivable moment.

    :-(

    Parent

    Over 700 people still missing (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:18:48 PM EST
    Too, unaccounted for. There are still bodies that haven't been found or identified. It's monstrous when you consider that we are a 1st world country.

    Parent
    If I may...... (none / 0) (#188)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 04:39:29 PM EST
    "...I consider his administration's amoral response to the NOLA tragedy to be ONE OF W's most unfathomable and unforgivable moments."

    ...........Iraq.

    Parent

    Personally, I believe NOLA was way worse. (none / 0) (#190)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 06:46:14 PM EST
    While the Bush administration was obviously derelict in their planning for invasion's aftermath in Iraq, I can see that they didn't know what would happen. (Not that it was any excuse, because they certainly should have known, but I think you get my drift.)

    The same cannot be said with regards to their willful non-performance during Hurricane Katrina, a true monster of a storm that spelled "DISASTER" in 8-ft. high letters to everyone who watched it approach the Gulf Coast on cable news outlets. The Bushies not only just stood by, they ordered those who could've provided real assistance to stand down as MT noted above, and then inexplicably tried to make such relief aid to Louisiana contingent on extraneous political factors which had nothing at all to do with the emergency situation at hand.

    When the usually compliant and ingratiating folks at Fox News finally felt compelled to start screaming at the Bush administration to get off their a$$es and do something in the face of an obvious tragedy, then you knew that something was seriously amiss and wrong here.

    Suffice to say that President George W. Bush has a lot of blood on his hands. But purposely standing down and allowing a several thousand Americans -- many of whom were poor and / or black -- to drown needlessly in greater New Orleans out of some warped ideological sense of individual self-reliance, not to mention rank incompetence, was the true nadir of his administration, if only because it served to finally confirm many people's worst suspicions about him.

    This was our own country where this happened, not in some faraway land. They didn't even have the simple common decency to provide the country with an accurate accounting of the dead. As a result, the true death toll in New Orleans and surrounding parishes is likely much higher than the official figures, which are still all over the map as it is.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Only in America (none / 0) (#204)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 19, 2016 at 08:49:49 AM EST
    could Obama's failure to visit a disaster area be used to attack Bush.

    lol

    Some reality.

    "From the Dome, the Louisiana Guard's main command ran at least 2,500 troops who rode out the storm inside the city, a dozen emergency shelters, 200-plus boats, dozens of high-water vehicles, 150 helicopters, and a triage and medical center that handled up to 5,000 patients (and delivered 7 babies). The Guard command headquarters also coordinated efforts of the police, firefighters and scores of volunteers after the storm knocked out local radio, as well as other regular military and other state Guard units.

    Jack Harrison, a spokesman for the National Guard Bureau in Arlington, Virginia, cited "10,244 sorties flown, 88,181 passengers moved, 18,834 cargo tons hauled, 17,411 saves" by air. Unlike the politicians, they had a working chain of command that commandeered more relief aid from other Guard units outside the state. From day one.

    snip

    "TV of the Superdome was perplexing to most folks," Thompson said. "You had them playing the tapes of the same incidents over and over, it tends to bias your thinking some, you tend to think it's worse than it really is." Official estimates at this point suggest the Guard, working from the Dome, saved 17,000 by air and uncounted thousands more by boat.

    Let's try that again: The cavalry wasn't late. It didn't arrive on Thursday smoking a cigar and cussing. It was there all along.



    Parent
    The point is that if a president goes (none / 0) (#98)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:29:18 PM EST
    at all, get outa the plane and get on the ground.

    And even more, the point is that it doesn't matter if the president goes at all, if the president does what he is supposed to do.  Y'know, his heckuva job.

    Parent

    Baloney (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:36:29 PM EST
    Obama has done nothing beyond what Trump did. In fact, he has done less.

    You criticize W and support Obama.

    Okie Dokey. Just what I execpted.

    Parent

    Whoa, that's just weirding out (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:49 PM EST
    to suggest that Trump did anything at all.  Not that someone with no authority to do anything even belongs in the equation.  This is one of your comments that just leaves me wondering . . . well.

    Parent
    Having gotten every bit of attention (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:28:35 PM EST
    Anyone would give him with the "jobs" nonsense he tries again.   Seems kind of needy.

    Parent
    Needy (none / 0) (#80)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:38:24 PM EST
    to come back in the next life as a horse fly.

    Parent
    ... PBS public affairs program that bears his name, missed his very first show in its history this week due to illness. This morning, he died at age 89. Rest in peace.

    I Watched Online Every Saturday (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by RickyJim on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:05:38 PM EST
    For the past few years.  Formerly I watched it on PBS.  I learned much about current events.  McLaughlin had the nack of finding issues of importance that I seemed to have missed when I read the news.  It was depressing to listen and watch John physically deteriorate in the past few months and I think all the viewers knew what was about to happen.  I hope there is some way to continue the show.  As far as I know, there is no other weekly conservative/liberal program that debates the issues of the day.

    Parent
    ... of the old school, and he had little patience for the far-right crazy stuff that first started emanating from his party during the Reagan years. It was pretty clear of late that he was very uncomfortable with Trump's candidacy and was reluctant to talk about him publicly at length. He'd instead try to steer the talk back toward public policy, which was always his forté. He was my favorite old curmudgeon, and I always enjoyed listening to the discussions on his show because with rare exception, they tended to be intelligent and well-grounded conversations. It was painful to see him start to deteriorate physically this year. He'll be missed.

    Parent
    McLaughlin lost me completely (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 02:20:14 PM EST
    with his "Issue one: is Obama a Marxist? Pat Buchanan.." crap.

    The old right wing "I'm not asserting anything, I'm just asking an innocent question" maneuver that I thought was beneath McLaughlin, and that one would expect more from the Nixonian dirty tricksters and Lee Atwaters of the world..

    RIP, you cranky old Jesuit.

    Parent

    I remember that show well. (none / 0) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 06:06:28 PM EST
    It aired in the midst of the 2008 general election campaign. He asked the panel if Barack Obama was a socialist, a Marxist or both, and lured Buchanan out onto a limb, where he was soon saying that Barack Obama was a Saul Alinsky acolyte who was to the left of Bernie Sanders -- and then McLaughlin and the other panelists laughed at him as being over the top.

    And in an earlier show, when Monica Crowley insisted that Sarah Palin had the temperament and qualifications to be vice president, McLaughlin warned that John McCain's biggest problem was that Palin's celebrity was overshadowing his candidacy, and further predicted -- correctly, in obvious retrospect -- that the more people saw of her over the course of the campaign, the less inclined they'd be to think of her as qualified for the job.

    As a liberal Democrat myself, I hardly agreed with McLaughlin's politics. But I found him to usually be pretty fair in his general observations about the subject, and he didn't necessarily pull his punches when he thought conservatives were being hyperbolic or making a mistake.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Well, he worked for William F Buckley (none / 0) (#149)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 07:03:12 PM EST
    for awhile didn't he?

    So McLaughlin was fairly well steeped in the particular brand of conservative catholic intellectualism of which Buckley seems to have been one of the last public exemplars..

    The fundamental weakness of the Buckley's and McLaughlin's is that they never stopped viewing the Cold War and the ongoing left-right polarity in America through the lense of a deeply ingrained conservative christian bias that identified tradition and the established societal pecking order with the mysterious workings of Divine Providence and progressive change with the disruptive Forces of Darkness.
    The fact that so many liberals and leftists embraced agnosticism and atheism only made the Buckley's and McLaughlin's more paranoid and made them dig their heels in deeper.

    Parent

    I, for one, don't fear contrary viewpoints. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:39:58 PM EST
    What's the difference between a liberal and a conservative, really, if both prove themselves unwilling to engage one another in a substantive debate and constructive discourse which requires each participant to truly listen to what the other has to say?

    John McLaughlin was one of the few conservative TV hosts who didn't surround himself exclusively with a hallelujah chorus of sycophants who agreed with him. And for that, he should be commended, and not denigrated and reviled.

    That said, let's please respect the deceased on the occasion of his passing, and end this sidebar.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Appropriately, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 04:03:36 PM EST
     

                   "bye, bye"

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:40:21 PM EST
    but do you realize how this is ticking women off? It's not like the GOP doesn't already have a woman problem. But their numbers with women can go lower. And now with the age thing Trump is even older than Hillary but I guess since he's a man it doesn't matter. Drudge did this health thing a while back and it was a dud. They are now down to recycling their own old stories but however it can also start garnering Hillary a lot of sympathy like the Lazio stuff did in NY. I think this works with their Rush Limbaugh base and probably not a whole lot more. Drudge has consistently put those kinds of pictures up of Hillary. That is nothing new.

    No (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:53:51 PM EST
    He did not do it a while back.  He started doing it a while back and he never stopped.  Then Hannity picked it and basically did a week on it.  Now there are starting to be long beard stroking articles in places like USNews.  It was not a dud.  It's working.

    Will it turn off women .  Definitely but IMO any woman now with Trump will not be moved by this.  

    My point is this is how this stuff works.  Before you know it questions about Hillarys health are leading every cable news show.

    Will it matter?  Probably not.  Would it matter if it was a closer election?  It could.

    And yes, DRUDGE POLITICO and most of the web intentionally have used unflattering pics of Hillary.  It's being taken to a new level.   Try googling "Hannity Hillary health report" and watch it.  He has a panel of doctors.  Some are actually in lab coats, so you KNOW they are doctors.  I don't actually remember any having a stethoscope around their neck but it's possible.

    Parent

    Anybody (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:59:58 PM EST
    who has ever read David Brock knows this is how the right wing in this country operates. They test out stuff and then shop it to the cable media outlets. They have been doing it for literally decades. It's like the birth certificate thing.

    But I think Hillary already released her medical records.

    Parent

    She has not (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 08:05:09 PM EST
    There was a statement or summary from her doctor.  

    Since I don't believe for a second there is any problem and since I expect Trump to make this an issue I would advise her to say I will release my medical records if you release your tax returns.

    Parent

    Best (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 05:30:16 AM EST
    take down of the whole nonsense here

    Trump's father died of Alzheimer's. It is hereditary. Perhaps we should all start talking about whether he's been tested and what the test results show etc.

    Parent

    there is no reason for any (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:34:52 PM EST
    commenter to post 30 comments in a single thread. If you have that much to say, you need to get your own blog. Blog-clogging is not allowed here.

    Looking forward to (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 02:19:51 AM EST
    ...the Olympic Mountain Bike Race.  I favor Peter Sagan, the Slovakian kid, Tour de France rider, reigning World Road Champion and currently the most popular cyclist in the world by a large margin.

    October 21 of this year will mark the 40th Anniversary of the day when a half dozen friends assembled at the top of a steep hill with their modified '30s Schwinns for the race that would settle the argument of who was the champion downhill rider.  It was going to be a one-time event, but it exploded into a passion that took over my life.

    We started a movement that now spans the globe, and is an Olympic medal sport since 1996.

    Ya never know, do ya?  It was a goofy hobby.

    Awesome (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 05:08:15 AM EST
    Repack. You sound like you have had such a wonderful life. I always like hearing your stories.

    Parent
    Mikhail Baryshnikov (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 07:25:41 PM EST
    endorses Hillary here

    First time ever he's endorsed a candidate.

    Also (none / 0) (#166)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 09:08:14 AM EST
    Wired endorses a presidential candidate for the first time - Hillary Clinton.

    Parent
    News today (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 08:08:21 PM EST
    Mr Robot (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by ruffian on Fri Aug 19, 2016 at 10:32:23 AM EST
    Wow, interesting. Did not see the most recent reveal coming. Really makes a lot of the last few eps make more sense.

    Wanted to respond to Jim from last open thread. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 02:54:13 PM EST
    You asked if we were better off today than 16 years ago. I said yes. Your response from right field? claimed that "the work force participation rate is at 1976 levels." Prove it. Back it up with a link or stats. You are like Drumpf or was it Goebbels, you think if you say something over and over enough times it has to be true. You've been shoveling that meme around here for years. If someone is not working nowadays, it is because they choose not to. Where I live in south central PA, I can't leave the house without seeing Help Wanted or Now Hiring signs. The lift company around the corner is hiring, the Chrysler dealer has a sign for technicians, the casino near Harrisburg is advertising on TV for help, my company is offering a bounty for welders. These are not low wage service jobs. These are well paid skilled jobs. Perhaps if people can't find work where you live, it's time to move. Here's a clue to the unemployed, move to where the jobs are. I've done it more than a few times in my life. Or, for coal miners or steel mill operators where the jobs were, try this, get a new skill. Find a new line of work. I was a typesetter in my younger days. I loved being a typesetter. But technology changed the industry. Change came. I had to get new skills. I suppose people who want to "Make America Great Again" think we should still have a thriving buggy whip industry.

    Not exactly 1976 level (none / 0) (#4)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    But close.

    United States Labor Force Participation Rate  1950-2016 | Data | Chart
    Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States increased to 62.80 percent in July from 62.70 percent in June of 2016. Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States averaged 63 percent from 1950 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 67.30 percent in January of 2000 and a record low of 58.10 percent in December of 1954. Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States is reported by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    http://tinyurl.com/jhqu377


    Parent

    And yet (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:14:20 PM EST
    From your link (none / 0) (#11)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:26:43 PM EST
    [T]he unusually low rate of labor force participation in recent years is attributable to three principal factors: long-term trends, especially the aging of the population; temporary weakness in employment prospects and wages; and some longer-term factors attributable to the unusual aspects of the slow recovery of the labor market, including persistently low hiring rates."

    To add to the above , older employees who lost good paying jobs jobs after 2007, also left the work force as they couldn't find anything near their prior compensation.

    And

    http://tinyurl.com/hjwqnj3

    Parent

    You seem to miss the part (none / 0) (#14)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:36:00 PM EST
    Where I said if you a job there are ample employment opportunities available. Nice cherry picking though. Hey they need those up the road at the cherry orchard. Saw the  help wanted sign Saturday.

    Parent
    Ask and ye shall receive (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 09:52:55 PM EST
    even if you play childish word games with names.

    The recession inherited by the Obama administration officially ended in June 2009, but the labor force participation rate continued to drop during Obama's two terms, hitting 62.4 percent in September 2015, its lowest point in 38 years.May 6, 2016
    Labor Force Participation Rate Dropped to 62.8% In April: 94,044,000 ...

    and the labor force participation rate dropped to 62.8 percent (near a 38-year low),

    I am 78 years old but I can still subtract. That was 1978, and Jimmy "Lust In My Heart" Carter was the Prez..

    As for jobs, depends on where you're at.

    And I'm glad you reinvented yourself. I also did, going from a planned military career to engineer to marketing to product management to sales. Takes a lot of work. Many people don't want to. Many people don't have the talent.

    Trump's appeal is that millions of people have seen the local factories disappear and when spending what little money they have at Walmart everything is made in China.

    Most of the DCers don't understand this. They have grown fat while lecturing people about conservatism. They don't know that people don't care about political theories when they can't put food on the table.

    Parent

    It is not just economic angst (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:51:53 AM EST
    but also racial resentment that propels the average Trump voter.

    A recent study showed a typical Trump voter is white, non college educated and lives in a white enclave far from Mexico with little contact with immigrants or minorities.

    If it were all about economics, Trump voters would not be turning to more trickle down economics, or W's economics.

    The difference between a Bernie voter and a Trump voter is the racial resentment--"those" people are to blame.

    Parent

    My parents (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CST on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:52:12 AM EST
    and aunts/uncles and parents' friends are part of those who dropped out of the workforce since 2009 by choice.

    They aren't exactly worried about putting food on the table.  They just happened to be turning that convenient age when you can start taking social security, medicare, 401k contributions, pensions if you got 'em, etc...

    Meanwhile, all of their children have been promoted and gotten raises since then.  So the workforce participation rate of my family is way down, but the economic condition is way up.

    Guess what - nothing about that story is unique.  Baby boomers are retiring en masse.

    Now you have multiple generations of voters who will remember very well what it is to feel the harsh economic effects of conservative political theory, they aren't likely to forget that any time soon, and few of us ever worked in local factories.  I'm not just talking about millennials either, the manufacturing industry has been on the decline for decades.  We don't yearn for things that never existed for us, we're too busy looking forward.  The GOP better start looking forward too if they want to stay relevant.  You can't make America 1950 again.

    Parent

    speaking of the 1950's (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 11:14:41 AM EST
    As a young boy back in the 50's my best friend came from a family, where the breadwinner was a high school drop out, worked at the local rubber plant, and earned $50/week. Now, I understand inflation and all that but:

    That $50 bought them a nice little "Sears Roebuck" type house. They raised 5 kids on that salary, all well dressed, clean home, little league, dance classes, and three year old ford convertible. The old man got three weeks vacation, health insurance, and paid pension plan. The rich folks in town were still rich, but, maybe not gazillionaire  rich.

    You can say it's just nostalgia, and those days will never come back. But, IMO, the only difference between then, and now, is that people really did care for one another then, and doctors treated low income folks with a "pay me when you can, Mary, I know you're good for it. Now don't worry about it, go home and take care of that wonderful family of yours, ya hear?"

    Yes, it really was that way, Mayberry was real.  

    Parent

    Back then (none / 0) (#92)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 05:16:36 PM EST
    doctors weren't carrying tremendous debt loads. They could afford to let people pay when they could. Had conversation about the ACA and socialized medicine with my hand surgeon (recently had to have part of a finger amputated). He said it's a great idea, but not until they do something about his debt. He is an attending, yet still has a  six digit school loan debt.

    Parent
    So am I (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:58:36 AM EST
    Just the right time.

    Parent
    Glad you and yours are doing well (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:32:36 PM EST
    The typical American family income was $53,657 in 2014, barely changed from $54,462 a year earlier, the U.S. Census Bureau reported Wednesday.
    What's worse ... it's far below the peak set in 1999. That's a major reason why so many Americans are still gloomy about the economy six years into the recovery.


    But many are not.


    Parent

    actually by that metric (none / 0) (#77)
    by CST on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:15:08 PM EST
    My parents are certainly earning less in retirement than they did while they were still working.  As for the rest of us - I'll acknowledge that most of that stems from the fact that 10 years ago we were entry level employees making rock-bottom wages, and now are working with 10 years of experience.

    Also - that article was written in September 2015.  Since then, wages have started rising.  A day late and a dollar short, but don't underestimate the impact of hope.

    Finally - banning immigrants isn't going to fix the problem of low wages.  If anything it will just lead to greater outsourcing.  The problems are more complex than that.  Electing Trump to fix the economy would be like using a chain-saw to perform brain surgery.

    Parent

    Well, it's hard to find (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 04:17:56 PM EST
    figures for 2016 when it is August 2016.

    But I do hope they recover all they have lost. However I don't see it happening.

    Most retirees make less than they did while working. As for your ten years....don't worry until you around the 30-40 years of experience range. ;-)

    And yes the problem is more complex than just 11 million "visitors" but they are part of it and problem solving includes solving multiple parts.

    Consider this. The continuing influx drives down wages. Stop the influx and employers will have to pay more for labor. This will provide upward pressure on the minimum wage. As the minimum wage is increased it will provide upward pressure on the next level,etc.

    Parent

    Another conservative talking point of the week (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 11:23:43 AM EST
    An economic calculation that doesn't mean what it sounds like it means, which is down by a few hundredths of a point and thus "lower," to deploy as if it were a significant measurement of how the economy is doing, or how people in general are doing. It is not the unemployment rate (the percentage of people actively looking for work who cannot find work). Apparently this figure includes older people no longer in the work force, as well as children. What does that prove about our economy? That more poeple are living longer?
       It's not that our economy doesn't have its serious problems, especially the stagnant wage level for the lower tier of the job spectrum, insane health care costs, and ever-growing income inequality. I'm no Pollyanna. But this "labor force participation" thing seems like a big fakeroo to me.

    Parent
    What it proves (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 12:17:28 PM EST
    is that people aren't working.

    It is akin to the U6 which is a measure

    This interactive chart compares three different measures of unemployment. U3 is the official unemployment rate. U5 includes discouraged workers and all other marginally attached workers. U6 adds on those workers who are part-time purely for economic reasons.

    It is now at 9.7%.

    Parent

    the labor-force participation (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by ding7777 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 07:16:05 PM EST
    is going to continue to decline for the next 10 years until the boomers age out and there is nothing Trump or Hillary can do to change that.

    IMO if Trump is President, the Repubs will not mention the labor-force participation decline

    Parent

    He's been peddling (none / 0) (#93)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 05:19:53 PM EST
    his doom and gloom, everyone is out of work and everyone is getting screwed meme for years now. It's a tired, old and wrong assessment of the state of the US. Quite like Drumpfs acceptance speech.

    Parent
    The gist of the comment (none / 0) (#59)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 11:07:42 AM EST
    is so far over your head, I might was well be flying. You miss the point, those factory jobs aren't gonna return. Not under Trump, not under Clinton. Just like the buggy whip factory isn't coming back either. But there is plenty of work available. If someone wants to work. It doesn't necessarily require reinvention, though it could require mobility.

    Parent
    Today's heartwarming story: (none / 0) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:09:39 PM EST
    South African sprinter Wayde Van Niekerk's gold medal-winning upset performance in last night's men's 400-meter final at the Rio Olympics has brought a well-deserved moment of recognition to Ans Botha, his 73-year-old coach.

    "Tannie Ans" ("Auntie Ans") is a former world-class sprinter herself who's been the head track and field coach for four-plus decades at the University of the Free State in Bloemfontein, where Van Niekerk has been a marketing major and student-athlete. Under her patient tutelage over the past three years, Van Niekirk has shaved an incredible four seconds off his time in the 400-meter event, culminating in last night's run which shattered Michael Johnson's 17-year-old record.

    Congratulations to both Wayde Van Niekerk and Ans Botha. In a sporting world that's become increasingly dominated by corporate sponsorships and professional athletes, they've reminded us what the Olympic Games are supposed to be about.

    Aloha.

    Yes -- but also his track-star mother (none / 0) (#10)
    by Towanda on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:20:40 PM EST
    Odessa Krause Swarts, who has been encouraging him  well before three years ago . . . and was destined for the Olympics, I read, but in the years when the country was banned.  

    She and his high-jumper father are enjoying this, as is evident in the video.

    Parent

    Even if South Africa had not been banned ... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:47:10 PM EST
    ... from international competition due to Apartheid, the Afrikaaner government would never have allowed non-white athletes to compete on the national Olympic team, even a world-class athlete like Ms. Swarts. No doubt, her own athletic prowess was a likely huge inspiration for her son.

    Coach Botha, who's an Afrikaaner herself and nonpolitical, admitted in an interview on SABC this morning that purely from the standpoint of international athletics, the race-based policies in place prior to the end of Apartheid in 1990 were entirely self-defeating. Today, the ANC pointedly singled her out for praise as Van Niekerk's coach.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Even if South Africa had not been banned ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 07:20:21 PM EST
    ... from international competition due to Apartheid, I think it likely that the reactionary Afrikaaner government would have never allowed a non-white athlete to compete on the national Olympic team -- even a world-class athlete like Odessa Krause Swarts. No doubt, her own athletic prowess was a likely huge inspiration for her son. And she's gushing with pride right now over him.

    Coach Botha, who's Afrikaaner herself and nonpolitical, admitted in an interview on SABC this morning that purely from the standpoint of international athletics, the race-based policies of Apartheid in place prior to 1990 were both stupid and self-defeating.

    She also mentioned that when Wayde Van Niekerk joined the university's track team, she first consulted closely with his mother about her proposed training regimen for him, so that she could determine his physical limits as an athlete and thus avoid inadvertently causing him serious injury.

    She said that because of his mother's keen observations about her son, she worked with him those first four months at University of the Free State to first heal his old injuries from high school, before allowing him to begin race-training.

    Today, the ANC has pointedly praised "Tannie Ans" for her key role in her protégé's astonishing success. Per SA News, mission accomplished.

    Considering the dire straits in which South Africa found itself 30 years ago, with the very real prospect of a bloody race war looming on the horizon, it's inspiring to see how far the country has come since Nelson Mandela first walked out of Cape Town's Victor Prison as a free man. And today, Odessa Swarts, Wayde Van Niekerk and Ans Botha are the faces of that change.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not necessarily what you would call an upset (none / 0) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    He was the 2015 World Champion in the 400 coming into the Olympics.

    Parent
    Word. (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:48:42 PM EST
    Pretty cool that he did it in lane 8 though. Hopefully will help stop future athletes from psyching themselves out of a race due to their lane assignment.

    Parent
    You're right. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 05:52:25 PM EST
    Given his world championship run last year in the 400m in Beijing, Wayde Van Niekerk really should have been considered one of the favorites going into last night's final, even though he was facing two previous Olympic champions (who subsequently proved to be past their prime, but still ...).

    Instead, he was inexplicably assigned the far outside lane, which until yesterday had been the kiss of death for sprinters in this event. According to the announcers, nobody had ever even medaled from Lane 8 in Olympic history, never mind actually win the race.

    The upset was not just Van Niekerk's obliteration of Michael Johnson's longstanding world record, but and the fact that he did so while running well to the outside of his primary rivals in Lane 8, an accomplishment which is without Olympic precedent. And not only did he win the gold, he did so in dominant fashion. Nobody else was even close to him when he crossed the finish line.

    I had tuned in yesterday to watch Usain Bolt's gold-medal performance in the 100m event. But Van Niekerk's record run proved to be the highlight of the evening for me.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not so inexplicable, fwiw. (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:07:47 PM EST
    He had the slowest qualifying time, so he got assigned the "lamest" lane.

    Hopefully it won't be considered such a lame lane anymore...

    Parent

    Almost right (none / 0) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:24:26 PM EST
    he had the 5th fastest of the 8 qualifiers. Not sure why he didn't get lane 7. (No one wants the complete inside)

    Parent
    Thanks, I mistyped. (none / 0) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:14:26 PM EST
    Ha!

    Based on Q times, I agree, he probably should have gotten lane 7. Because of the officials seeding him in lane 8 I just assumed he ran one of the slowest Semi Final times.

    But as it turns out, at this level, the officials consider both the athlete's Semi Final finish place and the athlete's SF finish time.

    So, despite his 5th fastest SF time, since he came in 2nd in his Semi Final, they did not seed him the the "5th best" lane. They seeded him what is probably considered the the "6th best" lane, lane 8.

    Seemed to work out ok for him though!

    Parent

    If only you'd leave out (none / 0) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 06:28:58 PM EST
    the touch of hyperbole.

    The two past gold medalists in the race, Kirani James and LaShawn Merritt, both won medals finishing 2nd & 3rd respectively. Not exactly athletes "who subsequently proved to be past their prime"

    Parent

    Merritt was suspended from competition ... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 15, 2016 at 08:15:07 PM EST
    ... for two years (later reduced to 21 months) in 2010 for "accidental" doping, while James has since struggled to achieve his expected potential after winning the gold medal in the London Games.

    Both are obviously still world-class athletes and former Olympic champions. That said, Merritt is now 30, which is admittedly on the older side for a sprinter. Last night's 400m final showed that he no longer represent the pinnacle of his specialty event, whereas Van Niekerk -- who clearly dusted both Merritt and James yesterday in setting a new world record -- is probably still on the upswing in his career.

    Of course, the same was said about James four years ago, so we'll just have to wait and see what unfolds over the next few years. And since James at 23 is one year younger than Van Niekerk, perhaps he can regain his peak form with a few tweaks in his training regimen. Hopefully, last night heralds the beginning of one of the sport's more memorable rivalries.

    Back when I was in high school and college, the race was still called the 440-yd. dash, which is 2.33 yards longer than the 400m. The kids today don't know how easy they have it.

    ;-D

    Parent

    I just watched the ESPN documentary (none / 0) (#46)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:06:55 AM EST
    Catching Hell... about the Cubs fan who tried to catch a foul ball during a playoff game in 2003, an action that some claim was fan interference that caused the Cubs to lose.   His life was nearly ruined by idiot Cubs fans, players, people in the media, and even (then) Governor Rob Blagojevich.  

    I shouldn't be surprised how bad people can be when they let emotion cloud their judgement but sometimes I am.  This film also talked about the Bill Buckner error in 1986 and origin of the "scapegoat".  I thought it was a good film.    


    Great film (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 03:42:05 PM EST
    Really interesting interviews from all sides of the equation. Really felt for Bartmann, but also the fans....and the players. And my 1994 self. that was such a heartbreak.  Hoping for better things!

    Found out at my HS reunion last weekend that one of the current Cubs is the son of my HS Spanish teacher. Go Rizzo!

    Parent

    I don't feel bad for any of the fans who (none / 0) (#153)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:01:53 PM EST
    yelled at or threw beer on Bartman.  It was obvious hid did what most fans would have done.... try to catch a foul ball.  There were others around him who tried to catch it.  Also, it's not clear if Moises Alou would have caught the ball anyway.  

    Another good baseball documentary is Fastball, about the history of the power pitcher and who threw the fastest pitch of all time.  

    Parent

    This is a blog with no requirement (none / 0) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 12:56:15 PM EST
    that "you" have a clue before you comment.

    Heh (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:33:43 PM EST
    Another expert, eh?

    Parent
    your last comment was deleted (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:31:43 PM EST
    Jim for stating your opinions as fact.

    Parent
    Google "Trump mms survey". (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 01:27:06 PM EST
    The antithesis of "fair and balanced."

    You should take the survey (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:42:28 PM EST
    It's hilarious

    Which online sources do you use? (Select as many that apply.)
      Drudge Report
     Breitbart
     National Review
     Weekly Standard
     Free Beacon
     Daily Caller
     American Spectator
     Red Alert Politics
     Other

    LINK

    I took it

    Parent

    Trump is ahead of Mrs. Clinton, (none / 0) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:44:26 PM EST
    in Texas.  I heard it is looking good in Alaska, as well.

    And Arkansas (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:51:17 PM EST
    538 had what a landslide would look like a while back.

    Scroll all the way down.  If she wins by 16 TX is blue but check out Arkansas.

    Again, SAD!

    Parent

    Blue Alaska too (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 02:55:42 PM EST
    Btw

    But not us.  Oh no.

    Parent

    This isn't scary at all (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:24:51 PM EST
    And, Trump (none / 0) (#86)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:59:36 PM EST
    is bringing along General Flynn to translate the big words, like intelligence, and Christie, to get sammiches, or taco bowls.

    My guess is that the intelligence will be of the caliber that could be trusted to any guy at the racetrack.  If otherwise, both Trump and Clinton briefings should be skipped.  Mrs. Clinton can get speedily get up to speed later--time for a new tradition.

    Parent

    It's an interesting test (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 04:03:08 PM EST
    If he really is as self destructive and utterly batsh!t as he has seemed lately he will go straight out to a rally and blab something he should not.  Just to make news.  And make news it would.

    Gowan, tell me you think it's impossible.

    Parent

    It will not be me (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 04:18:35 PM EST
    who will think it impossible.  Trump, the man-child, does not strike me as being able to keep any secret. Too hard not to show a sense of power in knowing something someone else doesn't.

     And, his capabilities to handle information or convert data to information come across as being limited.  Perhaps he can call on the Russians to hack stuff for him to fill in any blanks, or Flynn can take another trip to Moscow on his behalf. And, too, Manafort has a good contact in Yanukovych.

    Parent

    Oh he will certainly blab something (none / 0) (#143)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 03:44:27 PM EST
    very close to the line. He just won't be able to resist bragging about it. The only safety valve is that he surely won't be able to take anything with him, and he won't be able to memorize it.

    Parent
    Trump's new (none / 0) (#81)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 03:43:09 PM EST
    Christie, and America's and kdog's favorite mayor, Rudy Giuliani, forgot the only reason anyone remembers him: 9/11. In his introduction of Trump and Pence at Youngstown, Ohio, Rudy proclaimed: "by the way, under those 8 years before Obama came along, we didn't have any successful radical Islamic terrorist attacks in the US.  They all started when Hillary Clinton and Obama got into office."  

    And, Rudy took time to praise Pence profusely, but told the Trump followers that ..."you know better than I do what a great governor he is of your state."  

     Actually, Pence did his gubernatorial damage in Indiana, not Ohio, so Rudy had to say he loved Ohio, too.  And, a day or so later, Rudy explained that he really did not forget 9/ll, he was just "abbreviating" things in the interest of time.  The followers wanted to be spellbound by Trump and Pence, after all, avoiding the Trumpian excuse of being sarcastic.

    But, Rudy never did remember that terrorist attack at the LA airport, July 4, 2002 (two killed, 4 wounded).

    ... love to label Black Lives Matter movement a "terrorist organization," even though there's no evidence whatsoever that links them to such acts. Meanwhile, they've ignored the 16 separate and willful acts of violence targeting police officers since 2009 by white "Sovereign Citizens," during which nine officers and one civilian bystander in total were killed.

    Parent
    Why do you think (none / 0) (#87)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 04:01:39 PM EST
    it takes a Federal Program to gain new job skills? I've never used the federal government to learn anything new, ever. Hell I haven't even taken advantage of the GI Bill education benefits that I'm entitled. You right wingers are so bent on believing  (and convincing others) how bad everything, you can't even think clearly or comprehend a cognizant message. The jobs I mentioned, available around here, not low skill, not being taken over by migrants. These are well paid jobs for skilled workers. If their is an abundance here, I know things are looking up in other areas as well. Take your doom and gloom on long walk down a short pier.

    If you are 40 and married (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 08:32:57 PM EST
    with children how are you gonna learn new skills and feed the family??

    And you know, I've been commenting here since 3/03 and stated time and again my position as a social liberal supporting minority rights, including gay marriage, women's right to choose, LWOP, and redo of our drug laws.

    What I am not is a partisan Democrat, which is about all that is left here.

    I am also very strong on defense. That is, and has been since 1968, my chief quarrel with Democrats. And Hillary's foreign policy will just be Obama extended and a total disaster,

    So, here I am stuck in the middle with you.

    Parent

    I believe we have arrived (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:21:11 PM EST
    At the first great conspiracy of the second Clinton era

    HILLARYS HEALTH

    This is why (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 06:37:54 PM EST
    I am starting to believe it is the end of the GOP. If all they have are conspiracy theories it is time to close up shop.

    Parent
    i feel (3.00 / 2) (#116)
    by linea on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 08:50:52 PM EST
    she has serious health problems too! she is really old.

    Parent
    Feelings aside (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:25:37 PM EST
    Tr*mp is a year and a half older than HRC.

    Parent
    Feelings aside (none / 0) (#141)
    by CST on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 02:31:59 PM EST
    (and recognizing that Hillary is likely just fine) I would take Tim Kaine as president over Trump or Pence every day of the week.

    Parent
    you are relying on (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:27:37 PM EST
    right wing news sites who are the only source of the stories. Please take your feelings to those sites and don't pollute this one with rumors.

    Parent
    Get offa my lawn, kid (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:59:07 PM EST
    as Hillary and I -- and Jeralyn -- are women of a certain age, who are not really old. . . .

    And we do still have the critical reading skills to know that you are spreading cr*p like manure on a field.  

    Listen, sweetie, you're falling for outright lies.

    Parent

    i'm sorry!! (1.00 / 1) (#150)
    by linea on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 07:10:10 PM EST
    i meant it gossipy not political. i also agree with arianna huffington that trump's sleap-philosophy would leave him chonically sleap-deprived. i dont feel anybody switches political party to vote based on candidate robustness. does anyone feel they do?

    Parent
    Captain Howdy (none / 0) (#122)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 16, 2016 at 10:29:08 PM EST
    do not spread right wing garbage here. There are too many replies to delete all the comments but consider yourself on notice. An open thread is not an invitation to spread rumors and conspiracy theories from right wing sites.

    I'm sorry (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:29:37 AM EST
    My intention was to debunk not to spread the theories.  And the original comments were meant to point out it was now moving frm right wing sites into the more MSN.  Like MSNBC and USNews.

    Sorry the intention was not more clear.  

    Parent

    I finally saw spotlight (none / 0) (#145)
    by CST on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 04:04:24 PM EST
    since it's out on Netflix.  Highly recommend.  That interview with the priest is... revealing about the human condition.

    I also saw Black Mass recently.  I don't know why I saw it, I'm sick of the subject matter and was warned that it wasn't very good.  It wasn't.

    One of these days someone might make a movie about this city that isn't solely about white people, but for now, I'll take spotlight.

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#168)
    by KeysDan on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 10:30:51 AM EST
    Spotlight is highly recommended, easy to see why it was awarded Best Picture.  Differ on Black Mass. Not in the same league as Spotlight, but a very good film.  Johnny Depp did a good job for sure, but Joel Edgerton (the John Connolly character) was as good.

      Edgerton, the Australian actor, was also in the excellent film, Animal Kingdom, (Baz) and, beside acting, is a social activist providing assistance in the restoration of sight in the poor and improving Aboriginal health.  

    Parent

    I liked "Black Mass." (none / 0) (#148)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 06:22:52 PM EST
    I found it to be a riveting story. (And it has a 75% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, so others likely agree with me.) But to be honest, I also found Jack Nicholson to be much more understated and believable as the Whitey Bulger-based gangster in Martin Scorsese's equally compelling "The Departed," than was Johnny Depp in "Black Mass" as Bulger himself, who at times seemed to be channeling Joe Pesci's psychotic Tommy DeVito from Scorsese's "Goodfellas."

    Yeah, Black Mass was good (none / 0) (#154)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 08:17:20 PM EST
    but The Departed was better.  I didn't know Nicholson's character was based on Bulger.

    Casino is probably my favorite Scorsese organized crime drama.  Godfather 1 my favorite of any director.

     

    Parent

    In fairness (none / 0) (#167)
    by CST on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 09:30:33 AM EST
    I have serious Bulger fatigue and probably just shouldn't have bothered.  I suspect the person who gave me the non-recommendation felt the same way.

    That being said, I thought it managed to be both action packed and boring somehow.  It told the story of what happened but I feel like I didn't really get to know or care about any of the characters.

    Parent

    Or were they out partying at Rio's Club France when they weren't supposed to, and then made up a story to give themselves cover? Rio authorities are now questioning and investigating the veracity of their earlier claims.

    Judge Keyla Blank ordered Lochte and fellow U.S. swimmer Jimmy Feigen to remain in the country, after viewing an Olympic Village surveillance video of Lochte's group laughing and smiling as they returned to the Olympic Village after having allegedly just been robbed at gunpoint. There's also another security video from the checkpoint through which the athletes passed upon their return to the Village -- since obtained and posted by London's Daily Mail -- and which apparently shows all four men carrying the very belongings which they later claimed in sworn statements to police had been stolen.

    I have to admit, after seeing the video, it sure looks like all four athletes have their wallets squarely in hand. Judge Blank further noted several significant inconsistencies and discrepancies in the athletes' respective statements given to Rio police, in issuing her order to the two Americans that they surrender their passports. Reportedly, Lochte has since returned to the United States, but it's not known whether Feigen has also left the country.

    There are two (or sometimes more) sides to every story, and then there's the truth. Rio's received a lot of bas press in the run-up to the Games, and the story of Lochte being robbed at gunpoint certainly hasn't enhanced the city's noted reputation as a dangerous place for tourists to roam on their own.

    Let's hope the truth prevails.

    Lochte is a Gator (none / 0) (#159)
    by CoralGables on Wed Aug 17, 2016 at 09:12:50 PM EST
    and I love my Gators, but Lochte is a bit nuts and I would make no judgement on his account one way or the other.

    Parent
    of official report?

    Looks like they did.

    RIO DE JANEIRO -- Two American swimmers were pulled off their flight to the United States by the Brazilian authorities, Olympic officials said Wednesday night, the latest indication that the police were skeptical of the swimmers' claims that they had been held up at gunpoint during the Rio Games.

    "We can confirm that Jack Conger and Gunnar Bentz were removed from their flight to the United States by Brazilian authorities," a spokesman for the United States Olympic Committee said. "We are gathering further information."

    In a case that has grabbed headlines around the world, the gold medalist Ryan Lochte said that after leaving a party early Sunday, he and three other Olympic swimmers from the United States were robbed at gunpoint by men who identified themselves as police officers.[...]

    But questions about the Americans' testimony to the police are turning that embarrassment into anger, with many Brazilians wondering whether the athletes lied about the episode and smeared their country's reputation.

    My bolds.

    This was testimony they gave to the police.

    Being wasted is one thing, filing a false police report is something else altogether.

    "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

    Parent

    I read one account that said that ... (none / 0) (#161)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:48:21 AM EST
    ... Ryan Lochte had lost his passport and was seeking to get a new one in expeditious fashion, hence the story about being robbed. That would make sense to me, if only because I otherwise find it hard to figure out any motivation on the athletes' part for filing a false police report.

    But that's also hearsay, obviously, and given that I can't even find the site where I first read it, you ought to take that account for what it's worth -- which likely isn't much.

    According to the judge, their purported timeline also doesn't add up, and further doesn't comport with the times noted on the security videos in which they appear to all have their wallets, all of which contributed to her skepticism as to whether they're telling the truth.

    I hope, for the sake of Lochte and his teammates as well as our U.S. Olympic team's reputation, that this judge ends up being wrong about her suspicions. But Brazil's not some backwater, so I wouldn't go so far as to question her competence, either.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Now this is getting curiouser and curiouser. (none / 0) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 11:14:51 AM EST
    According to the Associated Press:

    "The group did not call police, authorities said, and officers began investigating once they saw media reports in which Lochte's mother spoke about the robbery. Police interviewed Lochte and one other swimmer, who said they had been intoxicated and could not remember what type and color of taxi they rode in or where the robbery happened, the police official said. The swimmers also could not say what time the events occurred."

    Why would they NOT notify the police if they were held up at gunpoint? Why did the authorities have to learn about it from media reports. That doesn't make any sense.

    This story holds rich potential to turn ugly.

    Parent

    I'm trying to figure out the money part of this (none / 0) (#175)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:33:20 PM EST
    If it's true they vandalized the gas station and agreed to pay the owner some money, did they make up the robbery to explain their loss of cash?  If not, why would they make it up?

    Or maybe they're telling the truth about the robbery.  Whatever the case, this is very strange indeed.

    Parent

    You'd have to ask Lochte, et al. (none / 0) (#181)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 02:18:39 PM EST
    Because right now, their stories are not aligning to the facts as we're starting to know them, and their tale of armed robbery is falling apart.

    If what Rio officials are alleging is true, then these guys would be beyond stupid to compound their present predicament by offering even more falsehoods. When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

    It's time for all four men to realize the seriousness of their situation and come clean, and not let it reach the point where a prospective USOC ban from participation in future Olympics is the least of their concerns.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    What I don't understand (none / 0) (#176)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:35:40 PM EST
    Is, is it normal to pull the passports of everyone that files a false police report?
    The truth would have eventually come out, but pulling athletes off of a plane to embarrass them seems like a little bit of overkill

    Parent
    ... before this nonsense is straightened out. Because at this point, this is no minor or laughing matter, and these four guys need to level with everyone as to what's actually going on here. Brazilian authorities are rightly angry because the now-allegedly false account of armed robbery of U.S. Olympic athletes made front page headlines here and elsewhere in the world, and perhaps gave the city of Rio an unnecessary black eye. And per the media's battery of questions at today's State Dept. briefing, it now threatens to become an equally unnecessary international incident.

    Parent
    I still don't understand (none / 0) (#180)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 02:11:15 PM EST
    They need to yank them off the plane and pull passports.
    They have all the evidence needed , I believe from video. The briefing at the State Department would still have been the same.
    Unless they feel the need to have them do jail time for filing a false police report, this all could have been done without them pulling passports and pulling athletes off of planes.

    Parent
    ... and not yours. If Rio authorities are correct in their assertion that the robbery account was fabricated, then their city at the very least deserves a public apology from these four young men for having manufactured a phony scandal that wrongly tarnished the Rio Olympics' image, given the world headlines it generated.

    This is definitely NOT a case of no harm, no foul. A robust tourism industry is vitally important to the local Rio economy, so setting the record straight is now a very big deal indeed to Brazilian officials from a public relations standpoint -- and rightly so.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#185)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 02:47:06 PM EST
    They could reconstruct all the facts from video,
    And actually get a truthful statement from the security guards and the station owner.
    I don't think it was necessary to pull athletes off of a plane .

    The USOC will deal with the athletes, hopefully appropriately.

    I just don't think it was necessary to yank these hardened criminals off of a plane

    Parent

    ... finally confirm what actually happened the other night is because those two swimmers whom they pulled off that flight and detained at the airport then finally admitted to the police that Lochte's robbery story about armed robbery was a hoax.

    If you think they would've ever subsequently admitted to anything of the sort after their return to the United States, then you have a lot more faith in the moral condition of American humanity that do I.

    Those two young men weren't victims. They were willing participants in an attempt to cover up a fraud being perpetrated upon the host country, as well upon as the rest of us who initially gave these guys the benefit of the doubt.

    Brazilian authorities did the right thing. They have every right to see to it that guests in their country comply with their country's laws. And further, fact and truth are increasingly on their side here, and not with the American swimmers.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Report: Lochte lied about armed robbery. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 12:05:20 PM EST
    Per Matt Gutman at ABC News, Rio authorities are now certain that Ryan Lochte and the other three U.S. swimmers fabricated robbery story, after a ecurity surveillance video at a local gas station showed one of them in a physical altercation with a security guard. Apparently, they vandalized the station restroom and subsequently paid for the damage in cash.

    While these four men should of course be presumed innocent until proved otherwise, if this story turns out to be true, then they've disgraced themselves, their Olympic teammates and their country. Brazilian authorities are justifiably upset with this situation, to the point that the State Department has since felt compelled to comment on the recent developments.

    Stay tuned.

    Parent

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#182)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 02:21:12 PM EST
    This should end it

    Mario Andrada, a spokesman for the Rio organizers, said he was relieved that the story had turned around.

    "Let's give these kids a break. Sometimes you take actions that you later regret," Andrada said. "Lochte is one of the best swimmers of all-time. They had fun, they made a mistake, it's part of life, life goes on, let's go.

    http://tinyurl.com/zrcz72n

    Parent

    Being an Ugly American (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 08:02:44 PM EST
    ur*nating on the gas station, vandalizing the station....publicly slandering Rio....

    Lochte is in his 30s....not a kid.

    An apology is absolutely necessary.

    Parent

    Ryan Grenoble at HuffPost agrees with you: (none / 0) (#199)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 08:54:02 PM EST
    "[Ryan] Lochte is 32. Jimmy Feigen is 26. Jack Conger is 21, Even Gunnar Bentz, the youngest of the four, is 20. Maybe they didn't do anything. Maybe they did. But if we live in a world in which children who actually are minors can be tried as adults, we certainly should view people who are legal adults as adults, too, regardless of the situation."

    LINK.

    Parent

    No. They need to publicly apologize ... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 02:40:32 PM EST
    ... to not only Brazil, but also their own U.S. Olympic teammates and their fellow countrymen for their disgraceful conduct in this matter. Failing that, I'd support a very lengthy suspension from future competition for all four men by both the USOC and their own sport's governing body.

    Parent
    Now it's being reported (none / 0) (#187)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 03:09:02 PM EST
    a gun was pulled on the swimmers after all.  
    Link
    A security guard brandished a gun after American swimmers vandalized a gas station bathroom, Brazilian police officials said Thursday

    Witnesses, including a person who offered to translate for the swimmers, said that they paid money to the manager before leaving.

    Could the security guard (or whoever it was) have demanded money?  Could the swimmers have misunderstood his intentions and believed it was a robbery? Is it legal in Brazil to force someone to pay for damages?   Very interesting.

    Parent

    So what if the security guard pulled a gun! (none / 0) (#193)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 07:11:57 PM EST
    He's licensed to carry. And he didn't shoot them, did he? The four Americans were attempting to flee the scene after having vandalized the service station's restroom. He stopped them from doing so.

    These clowns don't deserve any more benefits of doubt. They lied to both Brazilian authorities and the USOC about what actually went down that night, and Ryan Lochte lied to a gullible American media and equally credulous U.S. public when he asserted on national television that he and his friends had been held up at gunpoint.

    Don't make excuses for the inexcusable.

    Parent

    Why the rush to judgement? (none / 0) (#194)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 07:32:16 PM EST
    Have you seen a video of the entire incident?  I haven't.  Right now, I'm not going to take anyone's word for it.  Not the swimmers, not the police, not yours.  

    Sounds like you want them to be guilty of something significant and maybe they are but we don't know yet.

    Parent

    Further, in an interview with NBC's Matt Lauer yesterday morning, Ryan Lochte clearly changed his story in a likely effort to walk back the more sensational parts of his allegations. Look at the sheer number of media stories Lochte's initial robbery allegations generated, every one of which initially assuming that what he said was true. Despite all their ongoing and well-documented problems, Rio de Janeiro and Brazil didn't deserve this.

    Look, this is obviously a major scandal, but not necessarily a major crime. I'm not advocating that any of these four young men be imprisoned for what happened, or even charged by Brazilian authorities. (Although the Brazilians themselves would apparently disagree with me about that; Lochte and teammate Jimmy Feigen have reportedly been indicted today for false reporting of a crime.)

    But Lochte, et al., certainly ought to accept personal responsibility for what they did here, and publicly apologize for their deplorable conduct in this matter. They need to screw their own personal pride and cut their losses. That's the quickest way to put all this behind them ASAP, and not incur any more (and potentially lasting) damage.

    Lochte's also got $6.2 million in personal endorsements on the line here. He's putting all that at risk and more, if he doubles down on stupid and sticks with his original story in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.

    What FINA, the USOC and USA Swimming choose to do to these four guys afterward in response to these latest developments is entirely up to them. The imposition of some sort of sanction or even suspension wouldn't surprise me at all.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Here's what I need to know (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 09:21:43 PM EST
    Did someone point a gun at the swimmers and demand money? If so, I won't really have much sympathy for Brazil even if they damaged some property.  If not, the swimmers owe Brazil a big apology.

    If you're aware of videos or photos that can answer my question, I love to see a link.  Statements from the police aren't really good enough.  


    Parent

    Also, how do you know two of them (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 09:34:07 PM EST
    admitted wrongdoing? Are you going by what the Brazilian police said?   And how much did Lochte change his story?  The first story I head from him was a man in a police-type uniform pointed a gun at him and asked for money. Seems to me that's the important part of the story.  

    Parent
    You are, of course, entitled to express your own opinion on the matter. But as far as I'm concerned, you're simply being contrary with me for its own sake, and are cherry-picking stuff from articles which support your own preferred narrative -- even if those articles have been rendered obsolescent by subsequent developments.

    Suffice to say that this is rapidly becoming a national embarrassment. The United States Olympic Committee would not presently be apologizing to Rio Olympics officials and the people of Brazil, were this story of Ryan Lochte's hoax were merely unsubstantiated rumor. Any further response from me would be tantamount to blog-clogging.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    UPDATE: Ryan Lochte kinda, sorta apologizes. (none / 0) (#206)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 19, 2016 at 01:48:52 PM EST
    It sounds more like it was written or at least vetted by a PR consultant, given that it merely says that he should've been more "candid and careful" in describing what happened, and he doesn't take personal responsibility for having instigated this entire sorry affair in the first place. Whatever, dude.

    Let the USOC and USA Swimming discipline and sanction these four baboozes as each organization sees fit. And hopefully for his own sake, the 32-year-old Lochte -- who has a well-documented history of immature and petulant behavior more that's more befitting a spoiled brat than an Olympic champion -- will at last realize that the world doesn't revolve around him, and finally grow up.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I'd still like to know how the money was (none / 0) (#207)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 19, 2016 at 06:22:24 PM EST
    handed over.  Lochte maintains his story of "a stranger pointed a gun at him and demanded money to let him leave a gas station" (from your link).   Perhaps people on both sides of this dispute should be disciplined.  

    Parent
    came across this (none / 0) (#169)
    by CST on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 11:05:34 AM EST
    on btd's twitter feed.

    Definitely worth a read.

    ""Those people nowadays who say they would have stood up against the Nazis - I believe they are sincere in meaning that, but believe me, most of them wouldn't have." After the rise of the Nazi party, "the whole country was as if under a kind of a spell," she insists. "I could open myself up to the accusations that I wasn't interested in politics but the truth is, the idealism of youth might easily have led to you having your neck broken.""

    I'm not sure if I agree with that or not.  But it's also something I've never really had to consider.

    Well, you can (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 11:32:42 AM EST
    see the cowardice in the GOP these days in people like Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan.

    Parent
    All the antisemitic rants (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 03:03:20 PM EST
    racism, public scapegoating, demonizing and persecution of opposition political movements, and grandiose chest-thumping nationalisn were "kept secret"?

    Sorry granny, I don't think so.

    Parent

    yea (none / 0) (#189)
    by CST on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 05:45:25 PM EST
    My grandmother left Germany in the 30s.  The timing was not coincidental.

    Parent
    At the least (none / 0) (#170)
    by CST on Thu Aug 18, 2016 at 11:06:15 AM EST
    There were people who stood up against the Nazis even back then.

    Parent
    ... to live under an authoritarian regime which rules by intimidation and doesn't hesitate to brutalize its own people as its primary means of asserting governmental control, we really ought to pause and seriously consider what this woman is saying.

    When my wife and I were in Harare, Zimbabwe in November 2010 on the initial leg of our southern Africa vacation, we were at the international airport to check in for our flight to Victoria Falls when President Mugabe's motorcade suddenly arrived. Excited, I pulled out my camera to take some photos, only to then be gently yet sternly warned by a member of the airport security detail that "His Excellency" didn't like having photos of him taken by anyone other than his official photographer(s), and that I risked arrest and confiscation of my camera if I continued. I dutifully complied with his suggestion and put my camera away.

    Tough talk can be very cheap when one's own personal freedom, safety and even life aren't necessarily hanging in the balance. We ought to remember that the Nazis imprisoned and killed untold thousands of fellow Germans and Austrians during the 1930s in order to enforce public compliance with their rule. No one was safe.

    Adolf Hitler even ordered the summary assassination of several hundred of his fellow Nazis during a three-day period between June 30 and July 2, 1934, all of whom he deemed a threat to his personal safety and rule, in what has since become known as "Die Nacht der langer Messer," or "The Night of the Long Knives." Among the first victims was Ernst Röhm, the head of the Sturmabteilung or S.A. -- the Nazis' paramilitary arm -- who had been with Hitler from the beginning, and who had up until that moment been considered one of his most loyal lieutenants.

    It can therefore be assumed that had you been a German citizen back in the 1930s, and you witnessed a neighbor or two being roughed up by S.A. storm troopers, had a friend or relative simply disappear from your life after being taken in for questioning by the Gestapo, or even saw a local Nazi official arrested for some undisclosed crime against the state, you'd have very likely thought twice before speaking out personally against such wanton abuse and brutal excess.

    And that is the inherent risk and nature of authoritarian rule.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    It's simple (none / 0) (#203)
    by FreakyBeaky on Fri Aug 19, 2016 at 12:19:25 AM EST
    If you stood up to the Nazis, you died. History was not changed.

    The time to resist is BEFORE they take power, not after. You're finished then.

    Parent

    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#210)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 05, 2016 at 08:06:22 AM EST