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The Candidates Debate - Live Thread

Update: The audience has had enough. They are laughing at Trump and cheering Hillary. She even got his sexism in. What a dismal performance by Trump, even worse than I expected. He even blew his attempt to criticize her stamina. No closing statements. The media will have a field day with how unpresidential Trump was. Hillary didn't have a single mis-step.

Updater: PINOCCHIO! Trump lies and says he never supported the war in Iraq. Here's Trump in 2002.

Update: The quiet audience laughed out loud when he said he has a better temperment than Hillary. He says he has a winning temperment.

Go Hillary! She blows off Trump's insult to her temperment and changes the topic back to what the question was. And then gives an example of a Trump statement on Iran that shows he's not fit to be Commander in Chief. Hillary does a good imitation of Trump's cavalier attitude. " A man who gets provoked by a Tweet" should not have his hand anywhere near the nuclear codes. [More...]

Update: Sounds like Hillary would put al-Baghdadi on the Kill list. I would not, he'll be replaced in 5 minutes and killing him will result in new recruits. But does Trump even know the difference between ISIS, al Qaida, al Nusra, etc? On the question of how to prevent attacks: Hillary praises police and first responders actions in recent attacks. She says may find out more information because he is still alive. We have to "vacuum up intelligence."

Update: Trump goes off-script again on NATO. Ha Ha! NATO heard him call for NATO to get into the terror business and listened and open a terror unit. He says he probably won't get credit.

Update: Ha, Ha! Trump announces ICE and the border patrol just endorsed him. How is that a good thing? As if Hispanics and other naturalized citizens need another reason to vote against him. And since when are federal agencies allowed to endorse political candidates? Trump now on Russia and China.I'm just waiting to hear him say he can see Russia from his window.

Update: This is like watching a professor debate a first grader. Trump is even more ill-prepared than I thought he'd be.

Update: Donald's in a hurry. He just announced he wants to move on to topics he cares about. Donald doesn't want to talk about the birther episode. Hillary says he has a history of racist behavior.

Update: Trump brings up (quietly) Hillary's decades old reference to super-predators, acknowledging she later apologized for using the term. He failed to mention he took out ads calling for the execution of 14 year old juveniles when they were charged, but not yet convicted, in the rape of the Central Park Jogger. (The youths were convicted at trial and sent to prison, but 13 years later, DNA evidence confirmed they were not the attackers. The person whose DNA did match later confessed. Trump still refused to apologize, saying "No," Mr. Trump said yesterday. "They confessed. Now they say they didn't do it. Who am I supposed to believe?")

Update: We lucked out. Trump went off message early on. The crazy Trump got let out. Trump the carnival-barker showed up. His aides must be besides themselves. He's on the defense. He got decimated by Hillary on the question of his taxes. He equated invocation of the constitutional right to remain silent as evidence of guilt.

Update: Trump: We need law and order. (Dick Wolf for Attorney General?) When does hyperbole change into lies?

Update: I lasted 20 seconds at NBC. I can't stand the pundits. I'd rather give up HD and watch on C-Span where it's quiet. One minute away.

The games begin in 5 minutes. I think Trump will be on good behavior, trying to seem Presidential. I think Hillary will avoid personal attacks and concentrate of her achievements, showcasing her knowledge and experience. With 18 fact-checkers at the NY Times alone, she doesn't need to get her hands dirty. She just needs to seem experienced and confident, both of which she is.

Tonight is about entertainment. November is about voter turnout, and Hillary's got that.

Trump could make a major gaffe fact-wise and his under-informed, angry supporters would still follow him. But let's start counting Trump's Pinocchio moments anyway.

(And how dumb was his campaign manager's response to the media asking her why Donald Trump lied about Lester Holt being a Democrat? She said it wasn't a lie because he really didn't know Holt's affiliation. So why did he lie and say he did? She just admitted he just makes sh*t up.)

Enjoy!

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  • Display: Sort:
    Sniffling (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by smott on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:23:48 PM EST
    Does Trump have....I dunno, pneumonia??

    A couple of lines? (none / 0) (#10)
    by sallywally on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:33:44 PM EST
    The obnoxious and bullying Trump has shown up. (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:25:53 PM EST
    Why doesn't Lester Holt tell him to be quiet and not talk over Mrs. Clinton? This is not fun to watch.

    This is ugly. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:34:27 PM EST
    From a partisan standpoint, I can't see how Trump's onstage behavior helps him. He's not answering the questions, and looks anything but presidential.

    Parent
    Trump's become a live-action cartoon. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:53:07 PM EST
    "Ve. Must. Haff. Order!"

    Hillary merely has to hand this guy a rope, and he'll hang himself with it.

    Parent

    And don't forget (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Peter G on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:15:11 PM EST
    that was the answer to the question, how to we make progress healing the racial divide in this country? His answer, quoting Richard Nixon, "law and order."

    Parent
    LOL! I know, I know! (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:30:20 PM EST
    Tonight couldn't have turned out any better for Hillary, than if I had scripted the debate myself. In fact, what happened exceeded my wildest dreams. My youngest daughter summed up Trump's performance best, at the point when he claimed that he had a better temperament than did Mrs. Clinton -- "Oh my Gawd, what a psychotic!"

    Parent
    Trump's already told at least five untruths, as far as I can tell. I also think Hillary's making a very concerted effort to get under his skin, and is no doubt succeeding. Right now, he's defending his well-documented record of stiffing contractors, etc., in business, and has further suggested that they were either incompetent or corrupt or both. Anyone who would still consider voting for this clown after tonight is a fckn moron.

    Parent
    She has stayed on message, (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:50:10 PM EST
    very, very tough to do.

    Parent
    This lady's got a pair! (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:55:22 PM EST
    Her performance tonight has been a virtual tour de force.

    Parent
    She has done exactly what needed to be done. (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:08:15 PM EST
    Wind him up. Push his buttons. He can't help himself. Excellent strategy.

    Parent
    She prepared (none / 0) (#57)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:59:36 PM EST
    Yep. (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:26:44 PM EST
    And he just winged it, and crashed and burned as a result.

    Parent
    During the debate, Trump sd. he watched (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:49:24 PM EST
    footage of the Obama/Clinton debates and Clinton was very mean to Obama.

    Parent
    Drumpf is a petulant child. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:29:10 PM EST
    Making this disgrace of a man president is not what my ancestors fought for on the beaches at Normandy. Not what my father fought for in Korea. Not why I served in the US Navy.

    Petulant child? (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by smott on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:30:21 PM EST
    I vote for unhinged lunatic. YMMV.

    Parent
    Touche (none / 0) (#24)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:04:13 PM EST
    You sound like my Pops... (none / 0) (#100)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:20:07 PM EST
    only he was talking about Reagan's America 30 years ago..."My father didn't jump out of airplanes in Europe for this sh*t".

    Parent
    How would he feel about treating NATO allies (none / 0) (#106)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 03:53:10 PM EST
    like the victims of a protection racket?

    Parent
    Good question... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 06:09:52 PM EST
    I know he wasn't down with the defense spending on the arm under Reagan...and Star Wars was a frequent dinner table lament. Somewhat related.

    But I don't think he would object to a continued alliance in general. Just would prefer one less prone to gang up little countries that should probably not even be countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. One less prone to make little wars, even if it may in fact be critical in preventing world wars.

    Parent

    Holt is certainly asking (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:02:13 PM EST
    questions that require DT to defend a lot of ill-advised statements and actions.  Holt sounds so non-partisan, but the questions are no-nonsense.

    Once Holt got his bearings, ... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:12:36 PM EST
    ... he pushed back hard on Trump and publicly fact-checked him on several occasions. I think he did a good job, all things considered.

    Parent
    He was audibly nervous at the outset (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:00:58 PM EST
    but he has set a high bar for the debate moderators to come. I hope their questions are as meaningful, and fair.

    Parent
    To be fair, Jeralyn, ... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:05:53 PM EST
    Jeralyn: "[Trump] equated invocation of the constitutional right to remain silent as evidence of guilt."

    ... Trump is simply parroting the feelings expressed by an awful lot of people in this country, who wrongly conflate the invocation of one's 5th Amendment rights with a personal admission of criminal guilt. In fact, you have several posters at TL who've lately been parroting Trump's claim on the very same issue, Hillary's email server, as though it's evidence of wrongdoing and cover-up.

    The level of ignorance which many Americans -- some of whom are otherwise intelligent -- display about our constitution and governmental due processes is rather astonishing to behold. It speaks to a real need for us to reintroduce mandatory civics education in our public schools, and perhaps even in our colleges as well.

    Aloha.

    Internet commentsers (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:12:46 PM EST
    are not running for President. The head of the Executive Branch should understand the Constitution.

    Parent
    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:18:03 PM EST
    But Trump reflects a pervasive and stubborn ignorance in the general public which will no doubt remain long after he's departed the political scene, and we will need to address this issue regardless of November's outcome.

    Parent
    "I have a winning temperment..." (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:22:56 PM EST


    This is going better than I ever (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:25:15 PM EST
    would have imagined in my wildest dreams. Crazy Trump has shown up spouting conspiracy theories.

    I can't even keep up with the Josh slams (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:33:53 PM EST
    I don't have The Stamina

    Parent
    O! M! G! Now Trump's citing Sean Hannity ... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:25:59 PM EST
    ... as a character reference, and claiming that he has a better temperament than Mrs. Clinton.

    This debate is turning into a massacre.

    I simply could (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:55:34 PM EST
    not believe that and frankly burst out laughing when he said that.

    Parent
    Trump should've found some excuse ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:32:47 PM EST
    ... to stiff the country on debates, like he has with his taxes. I mean, when Mike Barnicle (!!!) is questioning your veracity, you've been beaten and beaten badly.

    Parent
    I think we should all take a deep breath ... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:38:51 PM EST
    ... and then mix ourselves a pitcher of margaritas. Because we deserve it, after sitting through 90 minutes of Trump's bullschitt.

    Not one commentator (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:49:08 PM EST
    on CNN has anything but praise for Hillary's performance and criticism of Trump's weak performance. Holt asked great questions -- taxes, birther, women.

    Axelrod - birther discussion was disaster for Trump

    That entire night was a disaster for Trump. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:09:06 PM EST
    If Trump had been the captain of the RMS Titanic back in 1912, he's have turned the ship around after colliding with that iceberg and rammed it again head-on, just because.

    Parent
    I watched on PBS (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:50:59 PM EST
    Comments afterward by the NewsHour crew: Gwen Ifill, Judy Woodruf, Mark Shields, David Brooks, Amy Walter, etc...


    So who won the debate? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:54:57 PM EST
    According to Frank Luntz when surveying his 22-member focus group, 16 said Clinton and 6 said Trump.

    Accordingly, Trump and Conway have decided to spin it away themselves in the so-called Spin Room.

    Chuck Todd tweet (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by caseyOR on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:06:57 PM EST
    criticizes Clinton for being " over-prepared" for debate.

    How is it that this guy has such a high profile media job?

    Parent

    could you link to that tweet, please? (none / 0) (#51)
    by leap on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:18:09 PM EST
    I'd really like to see that, and if he really did say that, give his bosses shit.

    Parent
    Here it is. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:33:49 PM EST
    LINK. Of course, that tweet makes perfect sense for a guy who dropped out of college.

    Parent
    what a dope (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by leap on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:09:21 PM EST
    Thank you!

    Chuckles really needs to go away, along with Matt Lauer. And Cokie Roberts. And, oh jeez, there are just so many.

    Parent

    Hearing Mrs. Greenspan (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 06:48:19 AM EST
    After the debate had me wondering if I had tuned in to the correct show. I did not see the debate she saw.

    Parent
    ... and doubled down. This dimwit really is driving on only three wheels, while Tom Brokaw is knitting with only one needle.

    Parent
    Truly good question (none / 0) (#52)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:28:00 PM EST
    Looked at the tweet (none / 0) (#60)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:05:48 PM EST
    todd taking a lot of heat.  Best comment from Mark Ruffalo:  "Digging deep, Todd"

    Parent
    I doubt if he even looks at the responses. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:24:58 PM EST
    It's the same thing with Chris Cillizza. Most everyone will respond "WTF?" to something stupid he says, and he just channels Diane Keaton in Annie Hall, "Lah-dee-dah, lah-dee-dah!"

    Parent
    Fortune Magazine: "Trump's Tax Returns (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:03:15 PM EST
    Chris Matthews: "This was (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:47:54 PM EST
    a shutout tonight."

    He is now saying there will be a shift to Hillary in the next few days.  Trump looked out of it, she looked healthy.

    If there is not a shift after this debate (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 10:39:46 AM EST
    than there really is no point in having debates at all.

    I've never seen such a meltdown from a candidate for POTUS. Sarah Palin did better in '08.

    Parent

    Two of the best tweets I have read tonight. (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by vml68 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:13:07 PM EST
    Jerry Springer -
    Hillary Clinton belongs in the White House. Donald Trump belongs on my show.

    Sady Doyle -

    I see Hillary has come dressed in the blood of men who have underestimated her.


    And the hits just keep on coming: (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:41:38 PM EST
    Tonight, the Clinton campaign released a damning campaign ad featuring Alicia Machado, 1996 Miss Universe, who spoke frankly about how Trump had demeaned and exploited her. It was Ms. Machado to whom Trump had referred as "Miss Piggy" and "Miss Housekeeping." When Mrs. Clinton first brought it up tonight, he pointedly denied it. Her campaign then responded with the ad release, which puts a face to the name and the charge, and allows Ms. Machado to tell her story.

    I think Trump just (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:52:36 PM EST
    lost any chance of improving his low numbers among college educated women.

    Parent
    And the hits just keep on coming some more. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:41:49 PM EST
    Meanwhile, Trump's roly-poly Boy Friday, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie -- who encouraged GOP convention delegates to chant "Lock her up!" while he falsely accused Mrs. Clinton of criminal behavior -- was himself implicated in federal court today by the testimony of former associate David Wildman, as being fully aware of the now-infamous political payback scheme to create chaos in Ft. Lee by closing onramp lanes to the George Washington Bridge.

    Karma, baby.

    Parent

    Lock him up! (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:25:47 PM EST
    But only with the benefit of full due process, of course, which is more than he and his lynch mob were willing to allow HRC. And only if he does not qualify for bail upon arrest, or for probation upon conviction. Otherwise, I wouldn't advocate locking anyone up.

    Parent
    It's all about karma, Peter. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:39:31 PM EST
    What you sow, you'll eventually reap. And I truly believe that Chris Christie's going to get his just desserts in spades. He may avoid a federal criminal indictment, given what I know right now about the criminal case thus far.

    But then, there's the political case to be made against Christie and at this point, the once-promising career of this former rising GOP star could be approaching a rather ignominious end. Two key members of the New Jersey legislature, Assemblyman John Wisniewski (D-Middlesex) and Senator Loretta Weinberg (D-Bergen), have conspicuously not ruled out impeachment proceedings against Christie, if it becomes apparent that the governor abused his office by misleading state lawmakers and engaging in efforts to obstruct justice.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Was that "just desserts" comment (none / 0) (#110)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:42:43 PM EST
    LOL! No, it wasn't! (none / 0) (#118)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 08:05:08 PM EST
    But as long as you brought it up, the one good thing Chris Christie actually has going for him right now has been his obvious weight loss -- estimated to be 85 lbs. thus far -- since undergoing lap-band surgery in 2013. He's considerably thinner than he was five years ago, when he was tipping the scales at about 320 lbs. And for that, I applaud him. Regardless of what happens to him politically, I hope that he continues to make progress on this front.

    Parent
    Just read that free beer is being (none / 0) (#1)
    by caseyOR on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 07:59:45 PM EST
    served in the media room at the debate. I cannot wait for intoxicated commentary.

    BTD wanted to provide live commentary ... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:06:18 PM EST
    ... via Twitter, but his plane was apparently stuck in a holding pattern over LaGuardia Airport. I must say, the pre-debate commentary on MSNBC and NBC has been absolutely inane, inordinately focused as always on personality and optics, rather than facts and substance.

    Bloomberg wasn't any better. (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by caseyOR on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:09:03 PM EST
    Mark Halperin is worthless as a political commentator.

    Parent
    You really have to wonder ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:14:10 PM EST
    ... how a guy so blatantly insipid as Mark Halperin could rise to the top of his profession like he has. The only explanation I can offer that makes sense to me is that he must compensate for his obvious dearth of intellectual heft by being one of the biggest brown-nosers on the eastern seaboard.

    Parent
    Well, LaGuardia is, after all, (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Peter G on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 10:12:49 PM EST
    a disaster, a real third world airport.

    Parent
    ... which is also old and decrepit but also very popular with the business people who work downtown, LGA is similarly convenient for Wall Street and the Manhattan business community. We flew into LGA in 2009, on our way to Albany. I was astonished to see how badly it had deteriorated from the last time I was there in the 1980s.

    Gov. Cuomo recently announced a full-scale $4B rebuild of the facility. Apparently, much of it is to be torn down and replaced. That ought to provide the NYC construction industry with plenty of work.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    You did realize, I hope, (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Peter G on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:05:45 PM EST
    that I was quoting a certain "debate" participant's comments tonight on the subject of U.S. airports, which mentioned LGA in particular.

    Parent
    Gee, I can only imagine who. ;-D (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:13:22 PM EST
    To be honest with you, Peter, I had likely tuned out the debate at that particular point. There's only so much Trump I can take in any one single sitting, and I had to take several breaks in order to get through the whole thing.

    Parent
    I had hoped that Hillary (none / 0) (#64)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:21:59 PM EST
    would take Trump's comments on the poor state of La Guardia and use it to reinforce her plans to create jobs by funding infrastructure projects. I thought she could do the same things with the discussion of cybersecurity and talk about upgrading the systems throughout the federal government.

    Parent
    BTD did, in fact, tweet. Kind of like (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:39:21 PM EST
    when he seems to be watching the Gators. You gotta be watching at the same time.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Nemi on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 07:02:55 AM EST
    You gotta be watching at the same time.

    Ain't that the truth. :)

    Parent

    Watched 5 minutes and had enough (none / 0) (#6)
    by coast on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:26:26 PM EST
    Going to walk the dog.  Picking up after her is more appealing than watching this.

    Mark Halperin and (none / 0) (#7)
    by hilts on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:26:30 PM EST
    Howard Kurtz are the high priests of false equivalence.

    She has to (none / 0) (#12)
    by smott on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:39:11 PM EST
    Stop him from interrupting her. Lester won't.

    Nah, it doesn't help him to interrupt (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:47:20 PM EST
    Digging a serious grave (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:55:59 PM EST
    All the way to China

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#83)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 10:49:14 AM EST
    I thought the best thing she did was not whine about being interrupted - it was 28 times BTW.  No one thinks she 'took it' because she is not strong enough to fight back - it was clearly a smart strategy. He was digging his own grave, why take away the shovel?

    Besides, as a woman watching - what is more relate-able than that? She already had an enormous lead with college educated women - this will make it go through the roof.

    Parent

    Wow, the Donald just suggested (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 08:47:01 PM EST
    He would phuck defense contractors:)

    I missed that. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:24:02 PM EST
    What did he say with regard to defense contractors? Full disclosure, I work for one.

    Parent
    He was answering Clinton bringing up (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:41:37 PM EST
    That he had screwed contractors over. He said the law allowed for it, and then he went on to speak of how we pay too much for some things in this country....and one of those things he brought up was military equipment. I was sitting on the floor, but I did hit it laughing. Get em Donald! Get Northrop Grumman...Get Boeing! Sick em...sick your base

    Dana Bash at the start of the debate said the candidates needed to stroke the base...which caused Josh to break out in Tropic Thunder hideousness. This is not stroking the base Donald.

    Parent

    Gossip mongering rumors (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:07:02 PM EST
    about Trump and presciption drug use deleted. Don't spread garbage here.

    Do let us know (none / 0) (#85)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 11:07:29 AM EST
    when you've extended the memory hole to include the tweets of Former DNC Chairman Howard Dean on the same subject, utilizing the classic ploy, just asking questions, to summon forth his slur.

    Parent
    Or to BTD himself, who ... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    ... retweeted THIS last night, which literally made me LOL!

    Parent
    Aaaaaaaarghhh!!!! (none / 0) (#30)
    by vml68 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 09:15:41 PM EST
    My brain and ears are being r@ped by the orange freak on my TV.

    It was encouraging to see (none / 0) (#67)
    by hilts on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:32:02 PM EST
    that most of the talking heads declared Hillary the winner. That list includes Mark Halperin, John Heileman, Maureen Dowd, Jake Tapper, Chris Matthews, Jeff Greenfield, and Mike Allen.

    Hopefully, Hillary can pitch 2 more shutouts and send Trump back to his Trump Tower where he belongs

    His lies are so casual (none / 0) (#68)
    by pitachips on Mon Sep 26, 2016 at 11:34:48 PM EST
    Clinton: he believes global warming is a Chinese hoax
    Trump: I do not say that

    "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

    - Trump tweet from 2012:  

    Trump staff (none / 0) (#75)
    by smott on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 07:25:54 AM EST
    Deleted that Tweet last night, BTW

    Parent
    His statement was not a lie (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 09:41:42 AM EST
    "I do not say that" is not the same as "I never said that." Deceptive, yes, misleading, yes, but because of the verb tense, not a lie. In other words, it's not something he says anymore.

    Parent
    I think you give Tr*mp too much credit, Peter. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by vml68 on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:51:25 PM EST
    Given his "mastery" of the English language, I don't think Tr*mp realizes there is a difference between "I do not say that" and "I did not say that".

    Parent
    Yes, I caught that too. (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 10:44:23 AM EST
    One step away from saying 'see I'm not saying that now, how could I be when I am saying this?' He's a 3rd grader.

    Parent
    I caught that (none / 0) (#91)
    by pitachips on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 12:42:02 PM EST
    But a lie can also mean the attempt to create a false impression - which is exactly what he's trying to do.

    If I rented a billboard that read:  

    "9/11 was an inside job - Pitachips"

    And a year later I make the comment "I do not say that 9/11 was a conspiracy", that would generally be interpreted as a lie. Especially if the billboard is still up. Leaving the tweet up is just another way of continuing to "say" that climate change is a Chinese hoax.          

    Either Hillary had too much class to shout over him to challenge him on whether he had ever made that comment, or she deliberately kept quiet knowing that the fact checkers would be all over it afterwards.

     

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#99)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:18:54 PM EST
    about the tweet remaining "up" on his Twitter site (until this morning, that is). That does arguably conflict with a present-tense denial. Of course, the truth is that Tr*mp does not even as a general matter stand by his past statements, none of which is apparently to be assumed to have a present-tense shelf life of more than ten minutes.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#72)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:28:32 AM EST
    For watching, so I didn't have to.

    So, do the polls move north for Madame Sec after this Trump debacle????

    Yup (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:48:30 AM EST
    There's only one place the Donald can go from here.

    Parent
    ICE didn't endorse him (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 08:04:58 AM EST
    You're right, federal agencies can't do that.

    It was the National Immigration and Customs Enforcement Council - the union that represents about 7600 ICE agents and employees.

    My thought when he said that was (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 09:47:48 AM EST
    How many people even know what "ICE" is, by its acronym, particularly when stated orally and outside any context? (This, in addition to realizing immediately he had misspoken and must be referring to an endorsement by some union or organization of ICE agents, since it is literally impossible for any candidate to be endorsed by a federal government agency, per se.) Probably, a lot of people would think he said he was endorsed by "ISIS," and then just scratched their heads.

    Parent
    Thanks - that baffled me. (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 10:41:42 AM EST
    These cop unions.. (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 11:16:54 AM EST
    aren't doing very much lately to counter the stereotype of the brutish, insular, narrowly self-interested cop mentality..

    Apparently the longstanding tradition of solidarity with other unions, the possibility of even more guns on the street and the potential for increased deadly violence are things cops just don't care to trouble their heads over very much..

    Why? Because a Trump presidency will mean they'll suddenly never have to wear body cameras again, and no one will ever again challenge the righteousness of police behavior in every situation?

    Parent

    Trump has gotten this far.. (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 10:31:41 AM EST
    only by winning the visceral, body language battles; interpreted by the electorate as conveying authoritativeness and confidence. "Just listen to him! He Must have a plan" they tell themselves..

    Hillary is making a big mistake in not staring the ape down when she's refuting a Trump charge, correcting the record, impunging his record, and countering wild-swinging hyperbole with substance

    All this looking away at the audience and the cameras and her notes is interpreted by many as an evasive lack of confidence and "typical DC insider" detachment..

    That, imo, was the biggest mistake she made last night. Trump doesn't get much, but he understands primate-territorial politics better than Hillary does.


    Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 11:59:55 AM EST
    doing that kind of thing would have played right into what Trump wanted. She made him play on her ground instead of him making her play on his ground which is what you are suggesting.

    Parent
    It wouldn't be on his ground (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 12:19:51 PM EST
    under any circumstances, because she's offering a lot more substance than he is.

    Trump, the little rich boy who's never gotten his hands dirty, and who's screwed his workers and outsourced jobs and who is fronting for the party of the 1% "job creators" should not be winning with blue collar workers..

    Imo, they find his "outsider" alpha ape-jock shtick appealing. And they haven't learned to trust intelligent-assertive women. Hillary needs to school them.

    Parent

    The appeal of the schtick... (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:26:33 PM EST
    is only part of the story I think jondee...the other part is they've tried establishment Dems and establishment Repubs and lost ground no matter what they do.  

    Part caveman schtick, part total desperation, part ignorance of harsh realities....it takes a stew to explain this madness.  And it's still baffling.

    Parent

    A little less caveman and ignorance (none / 0) (#105)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 03:29:06 PM EST
    and they might still be feelin' the Bern.

    But Trump? I feel for these folks, but that's just sheer insanity.

    Parent

    They basically (none / 0) (#111)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:57:17 PM EST
    are anarchists and nihilists who want to blow everything up. They are miserable for whatever reason and think they'll come out on top if everything blows up because they've been told that they are born to be lord of the manor.

    See it a lot down here in the south.

    Parent

    Not anarchists... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 06:42:39 PM EST
    I have anarchist tendencies...no old white male privilege exists in the anarchist philosophy. No "law and order", but a greater evolved order without law.

    Not nihilist either...nihilists believe in nothing. Trumpers believe in something, what that is exactly I don't know because what Trump says is too often nonsensical.

    Maybe they believe in the feudal system? A rich landowner telling them what to think and staying a step above the serfs...that might be the ticket.

    Parent

    Oh, yes, white (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 07:45:13 PM EST
    male privilege is supreme in anarchy. It might not in theory but it sure seems to in reality. Look no further than the aftermath of the civil war in the south if you want to see anarchy.

    No, they think they are going to be the rich landowner.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#114)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 07:01:30 PM EST
    think many of the trumpers envision a caste system, with white Christian males at the top of course, just like the good old days.

    Parent
    That is part of it. (none / 0) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 07:46:54 PM EST
    They want the old social order back.

    Parent
    I don't know about that (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 11:51:08 AM EST
    Maybe we will find that those supposed interpretations by the audience about what it means that she is not staring down the alpha male are just cultural artifacts of a history of patriarchy, and not some kind of an instinctual reaction.

    Parent
    I think she and her coaches gave a lot of thought (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:43:57 PM EST
    to how she would conduct herself while Trump was speaking. To me, she did a great job. No head bobbing or smirking. Must have been extremely hard to maintain.

    Parent
    Her coaches are part of the problem (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 03:25:05 PM EST
    I think.

    Hyper-ambitious fanny-smoochers who went straight from grad school to the beltway and who are one of the banes of the Democratic Party.  

    When Trump lays into her while she studiously gazes out at the audience or at the camera, it look like she's on trial and Trump is the prosecutor.

    No good.

    Parent

    The last person on the planet (none / 0) (#115)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 07:02:37 PM EST
    who needs one of these smart-alleck yuppie "consultants" advising her on how to comport herself is Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    She should tell those people to go out and get a real job.

    Hillary's been in the crossfire and on the hot seat and participated in the heated give-and-take of innumerable public debates of one kind or another since the nineties.

    Dealing with someone like Trump should be about as mysterious and complicated for her as a plugged toilet is for a plumber.

    Parent

    You mean (none / 0) (#119)
    by Nemi on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 07:01:01 AM EST
    smart-alleck yuppie "consultants"

    like Ron Klain, Karen Dunn, Philippe Reines, John Podesta, Joel Benenson, Jim Margolis, Mandy Grunwald, Robert Barnett ... Bill Clinton? ;)

    I think they, and not least Hillary Clinton herself, did amazingly well.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 09:02:35 AM EST
    I think she did o.k, against a sitting duck; a crash test dummy.

    Hillary should've had him for breakfast.

    The Democrats tend to over-think things. And a big part of why that is, imo, is too many cooks spoiling the broth.

    Parent

    Gen. George A. Custer, who -- if speculation of some of his contemporaries is to be believed -- had fancied himself as a potential candidate for the 1876 Democratic presidential nomination, if he could but win a spectacular victory over Crazy Horse and the Lakota Sioux. How'd that ultimately work out for him?

    ;-)

    Parent

    I don't know.. (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 10:40:44 AM EST
    the timeless James Carville almost looks like the lone survivor who lived to tell the tale of that ordeal -- after the Sioux and Cheyenne had their way with him.

    And  then he spun the whole affair so that it became all Marcus Reno's fault.


    Parent

    None of the 219 officers and troopers ... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 06:50:09 PM EST
    ... who followed Lt. Col. (Brev. Gen.) Custer along that bluff above the Little Bighorn River on June 26, 1876 survived. They were wiped out to a man. The only living thing in Custer's column that lived through it was Capt. Miles Keogh's horse, Comanche. Another 49 men under the immediate commands of Maj. Marcus Reno and Capt. Will Benteen were also killed in the battle.

    (Custer had attained the rank of brigadier general in the Union Army during the Civil War, and like many officers who remained in military service after the war ended, his rank was reduced with the resulting contraction of the U.S. Army in the late 1860s, although most everyone continued to accord to him the title of "General.")

    Ignoring Gen. Alfred Terry's explicit directive that he was merely to reconnoiter the Indians' position and then report back to him, and in the face of a well-armed enemy that outnumbered him by about seven to one, Custer had foolishly divided the dozen companies of his 7th Cavalry command into three wings. Further, he had separated them by such distances that day, none could have realistically assisted either of the other two in the event anyone ran into difficulty.

    Four companies under Major Reno were ordered by Custer to assault the front of the Indian encampment, which was estimated to hold as many as 15,000 men, women and children. Another three companies under Capt. Benteen were ordered to remain in the rear and guard the 7th Cavalry's supply train. Custer himself took command of the remaining five companies, and set off to assault the Indian village from the rear.

    Of the 647 officers and men of the 7th Cavalry who fought at the Little Bighorn River, only 379 survived. All of them were under the command that day of Reno and Benteen. It was by sheer luck that Benteen had moved his three companies and the 7th's supply train forward in a timely manner to assist Reno, whose own four companies might have otherwise might shared Custer's fate as well.

    As it was, the 7th Cavalry suffered a horrific 52% casualty rate, with 268 killed and 52 wounded. (11 men later died as a result of their wounds.) As I noted above, the five companies led by Custer himself were completely annihilated. And as you correctly noted, Maj. Reno was initially blamed for Custer's slaughter along with Capt. Benteen, although both officers were eventually -- albeit quietly -- exonerated by a U.S. Army Board of Inquiry held in Chicago in 1879.

    George Armstrong Custer was a nationally renowned and popular figure in his era, and he was held in very high esteem by both the general public and Congress. And while most of the U.S. Army's high command did not share the public's exalted opinion of the man, they nevertheless took great pains to avoid holding him directly accountable for the fate of his command, primarily because they didn't want to anger those members of Congress who adored Custer and also held the Army's purse strings. And since neither Maj. Reno nor Capt. Benteen enjoyed any such stellar public reputation, they were considered expendable by their superiors.

    As a result, the romanticized version of Custer and the tragic events at the Little Bighorn, much of which had been jealously guarded and carefully nurtured by Custer's loving and loyal widow Elizabeth (who until her own death in 1933 had never hesitated to wield her own political clout and sharp tongue to publicly squelch alternative points of view), took firm hold in the public mind and persisted in American lore until at least the 1960s.

    Strangely enough, the first Hollywood film to attempt to accurately convey the Battle of the Little Bighorn from the Indians' perspective was Walt Disney's "Tonka" (1958). The first significant public challenge to the Custer legend itself was actually a work of fiction, Thomas Berger's best-selling 1964 novel "Little Big Man," which provided the basis for Arthur Penn's critically acclaimed 1970 film starring Dustin Hoffman in the title role and Richard Mulligan as a sociopathic Gen. Custer.

    Needless to say, the actual historical record of the Battle of the Little Bighorn has since been vigorously reassessed by military, civilian and Native American historians alike, and it completely belies those earlier fanciful notions long held by the American public. Today, we no longer venerate the legend of Brevet Gen. George A. Custer, a now-mostly discredited figure who's finally been held responsible for a military disaster that was entirely of his own making.

    Anyway, although I've strayed seriously off-topic, it's still a fascinating story which offers us valuable insight into how the general public can stubbornly continue to cling to long since-discredited accounts of historical events, even in the face of significant evidence to the contrary. One can only hope that our own progeny will seriously reassess ad eventually revise the legacy of Ronald Reagan and our modern GOP over the course of the coming decades.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Son of the Morning Star (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 29, 2016 at 03:10:58 PM EST
    is a great book that goes into exhaustive depth about the Little Big Horn (known to the Sioux and Cheyenne as Greasy Grass) debacle..

    Either way, it was certainly greasy after they'd finished with Custer.

    And Libby Custer toiled for the remainder of her days to put all the blame on Reno and shift all responsibility away from the man who ordered 200 men to attack what was possibly the largest indian encampment ever assembled.

    Not well known is the fact that Crazy Horse came by his name not because there was anything crazy about him, but because while on a vision guest, he or his father or his father's father, saw his horse dancing in the spirit world, "which is the real world" according to the medicine man Black Elk..

    Parent

    ... is probably the best and most readily accessible source of knowledge and information for anyone who's interested in learning more about one of the most overrated, misunderstood and controversial figures in 19th century U.S. history.

    Connell -- who's not actually an historian by trade, but a novelist and poet -- meticulously documents the events in Custer's life leading up to his ghost dance on the Greasy Grass, including his egregious errors in personal and professional judgment in the immediate hours before the battle.

    Eventually, the manufactured and long-maintained legend of "Custer's Last Stand" collapses under the weight of fact and truth. What we're left with is the story of an overly ambitious and  terribly flawed individual, and his key role in precipitating one of the great and otherwise avoidable tragedies of our country's Indian wars -- not just for the hapless soldiers he led, but for the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Lakota Sioux who resolutely resisted the white man's aggressions as well.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Those deep-seated artifacts (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 12:03:28 PM EST
    had a lot to do, imo, with empty suits like Reagan and Dubya getting two terms, and with Trump doing as well as he has so far..

    We're making a big mistake if we assume that anything like a solid majority of the electorate is introspective and analytical.

     

    Parent

    Yes, but I amh oping with more and more women in (none / 0) (#97)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 01:50:33 PM EST
    office these norms will be breaking down. We may be seeing it before our eyes.

    Parent
    Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of truth (none / 0) (#98)
    by vml68 on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 02:11:13 PM EST
    in Jondee's statement. There is a reason Tr*mp got this far and has so much support.
    I was watching an interview a while ago where the reporter was asking people about their views on Hillary and Tr*mp. There were plenty of statements that dumbfounded me but what shocked me the most was hearing some women say that the Presidency was not a job for a woman.
    2016 and a 1st world country - how are these views still possible?!
    I don't believe in violence but I wanted to administer a beating when I heard those comments.

    Parent
    Blame it on the state of education (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 04:25:37 PM EST
    in the U.S.

    Apparently those women never heard of Elizabeth I or Catherine The Great.

    Now you know why Trump says he loves his low information supporters.

    Parent

    Honestly, if you had told me there were (none / 0) (#108)
    by vml68 on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 05:37:24 PM EST
    low information voters like these when I came to this country more than 2 decades ago, I never would have believed it. I would have said that at most only a handful of people like that existed here. Granted, in many ways I was very naïve about the US when I first came here. But, even after being here so long, I struggle to believe it. It just does not seem possible.

    Speaking of education, I don't understand how Tr*mp who has had the benefit of going to some very good schools can't seem to compose a complete sentence and also has such a limited vocabulary. IMO, there are some mental issues there, I just don't know what they are.

    Parent

    Howard Dean has a point (none / 0) (#122)
    by CST on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 09:03:50 AM EST
    I'd say that's probably a part of it.  

    Parent
    Cocaine is the numero uno drug (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 at 09:31:31 AM EST
    for talking absolute sh*t while appearing to project absolute confidence.

    Some well-informed people have suggested that coke and adderall consumption played a big role in a lot of the shenanigans that went on on Wall St leading up to the debacle of 2007-2008.

    Parent

    Insightful point (none / 0) (#84)
    by Towanda on Tue Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01:00 AM EST
    by some pundit on Twitter is that we saw the result of Trump (in too-typical CEO style)

    --purging his staff of anyone who challenged him and

    -- also not being challenged by news media, with no news conferences for several weeks now and only call-ins to Fox News.