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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 02:29:44 PM EST
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    Thursday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)
    Gen(ret) John Kelly, (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 03:28:54 PM EST
    Chief of Staff, has succumbed to the Book of Moron. Or, more appropriately (the Book of F..Moron).  In an emotional outburst, Kelly basked in the darkness of Trump, saying he was "stunned" that Congresswoman Wilson was listening in on the sacred phone call from Trump, who expressed his sympathy by saying to the widow  that her late husband, Sgt. La David Johnson, knew what he signed up for, but when it happens it hurts anyway. Kelly seems to be instructing the widow on what is appropriate for her, as if it was not her grief to deal with.

    Kelly implied that the Congresswoman was almost criminally eavesdropping on Mrs. Johnson's phone call, when the call was taken on a speaker phone while the vehicle was on the way to the airport to meet up with the fallen's casket.  Moreover, the Congresswoman was a friend of the fallen soldier and his family.

    Kelly is never stunned by Trump; I have never bought into the lionization of Kelly as one of the adults in the room, and if there was any further doubt about this man, refusal to take questions at the end of his weird presser, from other than reporters who couldn't say they personally knew a Gold Star Family, should clinch the deal.

    Josh Marshall, at TPM,     states the situation well.

    For me (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 03:37:06 PM EST
    The most stunning thing was the riff on the "loss of sacred things". Like women.

    Wait,  WHAT?  Did Trumps mouthpiece really just say that?

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:45:43 PM EST
    I'm no longer sacred. I don't know how, I don't know why, I just know because General Kelly said so.

    Parent
    i guess (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:51:44 PM EST
    the idea his bosses normalization of sexual assault contributed to the loss sacredness never occurred to him.

    Parent
    General Kelly (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 05:13:33 PM EST
    says from one of his mouths: women are sacred; and from the other mouth trash talks a Congresswoman, a gold star mother, and a widow who agrees with them. I sure hope that Kelly's sense of sacredness in women does not count just for white women.

    But, the General may, albeit inadvertently, have some honor in that he did reveal that Trump lied about what he said.  Otherwise, Kelly was making excuses for what Trump never said..defending something that never happened.  And, there were people, including him, listening in on Trump's call (which is Ok if from his side) which was Trump's "proof" that he didn't say what Kelly confirmed and justified.

    The bottom line is that Trump needs to make a condolence call to Kelly, on the loss of his dignity, self-respect, and mind.

    Parent

    I just watched Kelly's remarks. (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 03:43:57 PM EST
    I do not understand why he felt compelled to attack Congresswoman Wilson. If he had paid the least bit of attention to the news coverage he would have known that Wilson was not eavesdropping, which is the spin Kelly gave it, but was in the car with the family and the call was on speakerphone.
    Kelly described the way he was told about his son's death. The officer who came to his door was his best friend, and fellow officer, Joe Dunford. And Dunford's words may have made sense to and brought some tiny bit of comfort to a fellow Marine. That does not mean those same words would comfort the civilian widow of a fallen service member.

    Why Kelly chose this moment to castigate all of America save those in the military escapes me. His criticisms of all other Americans, our, in his opinion, lack of respect for life (sounded like a shot at abortion supporters) and religion and women made him sound like an angry old man railing at a world that had changed while he stayed the same.

    Kelly's grief over his son's death was very apparent. There is no getting over that grief. But his decision to rail at everyone who is not military and to defend Trump, that I do not understand.

    Parent

    According to Kelly (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:41:19 PM EST
    Kelly is taking responsibility for Trump's decision to not call families, and he is who told Trump to go with "He knew what he signed up for" because that was a soldier talk he had with one of his friends after his own son was killed.....sigh

    I shouldn't be surprised that some General is going to once again blame civilian family members for not enjoying his boot camp treatments. And he's pissed that he was wrong and some families do seem to expect a call where you know their deceased soldier's name.

    I haven't seen anything this bad though since the run up to the Iraq War when commanders couldn't wait to get to war and couldn't understand after their insane speeches why 20 something wives with children in tow left auditoriums sobbing.

    It is now obvious that John Kelly lacks certain forms of social awareness and self awareness. I guess if the military intended for him to have those they would have issued those to him.

    Parent

    Given that Trump is clearly incapable (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:22:14 PM EST
    of dealing with any situation in which raw, painful emotions are involved, it boggles my mind why anyone would think it a good idea to allow him to make condolence calls.  Or calls of any kind, really.  Or personal visits.

    Letters?  Yes, because someone else could compose them and he could sign them.

    As for Kelly, he has, at every turn, defended Trump and defended others in the Trump circle: remember his defense of Mike Flynn?  So, it doesn't surprise me that he came out swinging at everyone but his boss today, but I'm not sure he realizes how utterly he devalued his own grief on the altar of a man who is only marginally, recognizably human.

    In my mind, that he has tied himself to this dangerous and dim buffoon speaks to his own character, and it does not speak well.

    Altogether, this administration seems to be little more than a large collection of damaged, dim-witted and possibly insane people whose business plan is based on chaos designed to facilitate their voracious appetite for grifting.

    It may be time to elevate the resistance to revolution.

    Parent

    Kelly said he originally told Trump (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:44:33 PM EST
    To not make those condolence calls because those calls are hard to make and there is nothing he could say to the families that would benefit them or help them through it.

    Parent
    Kelly would have better served Trump (none / 0) (#12)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    by putting him in touch with some military spouses or children, who could have given Trump a clue about what they would want to hear in that situation.

    The real problem is, of course, that Trump is not capable of feeling or expressing empathy.  If he were, he might have recognized that what one military man heard as an expression of condolence from another military man would not be heard that way by a young mother who had just lost her husband.

    I can't even imagine him asking Melania's advice on what to say, but I can for sure imagine George and Laura and Barack and Michelle having those conversations.

    But how hard is it, really, to at least have the names of the people you're calling and the loved one lost, on a cheat sheet in front of you?  Jesus, he couldn't even come up with her name when answering questions from the media: she was "the woman, the widow."

    I hope Myeshia Johnson won't spend the rest of her life remembering the call that came at the worst moment of her life, but I fear that it's one thing that will stay with her.

    Parent

    I don't know if every family needs a call from (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:39:53 PM EST
    The President, but some do. It is part of their identity in the sacrifices the family made. I don't know where Kelly gets off suggesting that a President shouldn't make those calls except perhaps he knows the President he now serves is broken. I must also consider though that Kelly is also broken. He has enabled one President to attack another President over something that HE/KELLY now claims is sacred. And he takes no responsibility for his own sacredless actions.

    It almost seems like Kelly believes because he is a member of a Gold Star Family he can treat other Gold Star Families like shit too...and then tells them they should like it this way. It's what they signed up for.

    Parent

    Kelly claimed today that (none / 0) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 07:09:50 PM EST
    the family does not care about a call from the president or SecDef or the commandant. The only calls a family cares about come from their deceased soldier's buddies.

    I can imagine that for some families, Kelly for example, that is true. Other families may feel differently.

    It strikes me that John Kelly, not unlike his boss, cannot comprehend any response that is different than his own. He experiences the grief and loss in a particular way so every Gold Star family must also experience it that way.

    Parent

    Yes, I heard this too (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 07:59:29 PM EST
    And those were the calls that were important to Kelly, the things HE identified with. He's already admitted he's a 1%. Why does he think he understands the grieving needs of 99% of us?

    Parent
    Oh yeah....and when a Gold Star Family (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:43:03 PM EST
    Is treated like shit there should be no witnesses. It destroys the sacredness of the shitty treatment.

    Parent
    There's one Trump charisteristic (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by NYShooter on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:34:29 PM EST
    that's overlooked when describing the disaster-in-chief.......Sadism.

    I don't say that lightly, yet, it explains a lot. He, not only does things that hurt millions, he loves it.

    Whether it's his obvious racism, reluctant aid to hurricane victims, countless civilian deaths from his bombing orders, or beastly actions regarding immigrants, the more pain he can inflict the happier he is.

    We can't count on just Russian collusion to get rid of this monster.

    Parent

    i have (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:53:50 PM EST
    noticed that but not specifically related to Trump. I have noticed how the entire GOP loves to inflict as much pain and suffering on Americans as they can.

    Parent
    White Gold Star Family (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:45:06 PM EST
    gets promise of 25K, and now a check after being shamed into following through.

    Black Gold Star Family:  Gets the "he knew what he signed up for" treatment.

    Puerto Rico gets the Trump tough-love talk.

    States that vote for Trump get hurricane relief without the tough love talk....

    Anyone see a pattern?

    Parent

    Other families coming forward (none / 0) (#194)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 06:50:27 AM EST
    And saying they received neither phone call or letter from this White House all seem to have one thing in common too. They are PoC and the soldier was too.

    Parent
    I find it really strange that we (none / 0) (#196)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 11:01:46 AM EST
    haven't heard a peep from the families of the other three soldiers killed in Niger.

    On the other hand, if I were a member of one of those families, I wouldn't want to be turned into cannon fodder for the 24/7 news cycle.

    I also wonder if former presidents needed a retinue of aides in the room when condolence calls were being made; I find it all kinds of tone-deaf that umbrage was so easily taken at the "eavesdropping" on the call by Wilson (which we know wasn't eavesdropping at all), while at the same time a whole slew of people were on hand at Trump's end for the call.

    If I had to guess, I'd bet that the call to Mrs. Johnson was the last one he made, and by the time he got to it, was bored with the whole thing and short-cut his remarks to the cold "he knew what he signed up for" comment.  Pretty sure he didn't want to be on the call long enough to have to hear someone crying or audibly upset.

    Does he have any redeeming qualities?  I can't think of any.

    Parent

    Just had lunch with spouse (none / 0) (#197)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 11:56:03 AM EST
    So we talked about this. At the start of the Iraq War the Army no longer had a streamlined system to deal with the family needs of the fallen. Some pretty terrible things happened, families learning from news or Facebook that they had lost a loved one.

    I remember when we had no storage room for caskets and they were spilling out into the hallway of the thrown together notification office below my husbands old office. They were empty. I never did come to understand why we had empty caskets about either. Nor did I ever ask. It was a bit gruesome so I averted my gaze.

    A lot of hurting American families have forgiven a lot of stumbling toward great intentions as their loved ones served, were wounded, or killed over the years.

    I was even a little consoled by the fact we had not been to war for so many years we were no longer good at casuality affairs in 2004. There is no excuse now though, and there never has been "a sacredness" to military casualty notification and what follows. We have been better at it at times, because we were practiced and had the infrastructure in place, and other times we failed military families horribly and as Americans most forgave the inconsideration.

    Remember Arlington getting caught using old headstones for erosion rip rap? How's that for sacred? Without oversight the military commanders observe sacredness when they damn well feel like it :)

    Parent

    Thanks for the insider's perspective, it helps. (none / 0) (#199)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    Mostly, though, I feel like we've all been made to feel so guilty and inferior for not putting our lives on the line that we don't question when some ramrod-postured man with stars and bars plays the "sacred" card.  And when he lies through his teeth in service not of the military, but a political crackpot (or "crap pot," which works, too), it kills the very thing he's trying to keep alive.

    When Kelly gave the "we don't look down on those who don't serve, but we do feel sorry for you," part of his comments the other day, I was a little stunned.  And then to follow that with only taking questions from reporters who either were members of a Gold Star family or knew someone who was - as if, what? the questions would be appropriately respectful and non-confrontational?  That those who didn't fall into that category weren't qualified to do their jobs?

    This whole thing has shined a very unkind light on people's character, and widened the gap between the military and non-military worlds.

    Parent

    Yes, the grandiose recognition of service (none / 0) (#200)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 04:25:39 PM EST
    We've been doing this WOT thing for so long. I have used it in the past to highlight the past stressor of claim denying for profit insurance because it does seem to get through to people then. How can this kid be denied medical needs while his parent is deployed? But how can we condone any child being denied? That's the next question.

    In 2004 an old Vietnam Chaplain discussed with some of us though not placing so much energy on the deployed soldier's wants. Because many of our teenagers really had a hard time then.

    He told us to focus on the kids, not worry about sending candy and comforts to the troops. He said during Vietnam he'd smile all through his morning coffee with adults, knowing his two sons were destroying the house and his wife's peace of mind. And he said all of his life he is forever a man's man in our culture because he served during a war. So don't worry about the soldiers, take care of your families stateside first.

    There are many other professions where people are taxed very heavily every day for the greater good, something larger than themselves. But if you spent 40 yrs in uniform you may not have gotten out into the real world enough to know that.

    Parent

    Because they are Green Beret families (none / 0) (#198)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 12:12:04 PM EST
    We probably won't hear too much from them either. It is different for spec forces families. And they tend to build a strong self supporting community.

    They put up with a lot of not knowing where their family members are and what they are doing.

    Parent

    Congresswoman has known family decades (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 05:41:24 PM EST
    Wapo Link

    The deceased soldier was an alumnus of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Project, a mentoring program Wilson started for youths pursuing military careers among other fields. So were his brothers. One received a full scholarship to Bethune Cookman College and the other is training to become a firefighter.

    Wilson's connection to the family goes back at least one generation. She told CNN that she was the principal of a school that Johnson's father attended.



    Parent
    Kelley (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by FlJoe on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:05:56 PM EST
    called her an empty barrel, attacked her for making a perfectly normal political speech, all and all he was rather vicious towards her, deplorable.                              

    Parent
    He was hateful (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 04:09:16 AM EST
    I realize there is no perfect condolence call, I think most of us know this. If you or I had to make those calls though we would go about it carefully and considerately. We would know their names.

    And I'm stunned Kelly doubled down on the whole signing up for death. He was unquestionable for too long, he believes himself beyond reproach.

    Kelly lived in the bubble. For years he was shown minute by minute deference because he was a commissioned officer. I don't think he is transitioning into civilian work life well. And I don't think he's going to get better either. He is also too old to learn complex new tricks.

    He despises the press. He despises Congress. He despises anything who doesn't stand to attention for his new authority.

    The whole women aren't sacred thing. If he was referring to the Harvey Weinstein scandal I only have one thing to say, the Marine Corp has been the most difficult branch to end sexual assault in. At first we all thought they were doing the best at handling it, only to discover that commanders were hiding rapes and assaults AGAIN when he was active duty top brass in the Marine Corp!!!! I'd like to hear about some of his private commander to commander talks about that.

    Parent

    After hearing how deeply nasty and (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Anne on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 05:12:48 AM EST
    derisive he was about the Congresswoman, and given the obvious history Trump has with women - not just the Access Hollywood thing, but the multiple marriages - I interpreted the "sacredness" of women - and "life" - as being more about longing for the days when women were property and not fully equal and independent beings than about some sort of reverence.

    His zeal for Trump's immigration policies also puts the lie to his definition of the sacredness of religion, too.

    Which kind of explains for me how someone who is routinely touted as being such an exemplary human being could bring himself to work for someone who clearly isn't - at least by contemporary standards.

    It reminds us that just because someone appears to be temperamentally stable, and rhetorically fluent, doesn't guarantee that his world view and agenda are any more sound than those of the guy who often appears to be a couple hand gestures and verbal spitting away from being a raving lunatic.

    In fact, I am prepared to believe that having someone like Kelly around to lend his apparently unwavering support makes Trump more dangerous and more of a threat, and from what I've heard some of the talking heads and pundits say about Kelly's performance today, it appears that there are a lot of second thoughts coming into focus about separating John Kelly, the man who is philosophically stuck in the 1950s, from the uniform that is supposed to make him untouchable.

    Parent

    Agree, Kelly is losing credibility quickly (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:38:13 AM EST
    It can be very hard to know someone in uniform. In service they are all under the umbrella of their current CIC and it is a military. They largely do what they're told. More than once I've been surprised by who someone's retired self is :)

    Now Kelly's recollection of what Frederica Wilson at the FBI building ceremony said is possibly factually incorrect. If film footage exists it could completely destroy Kelly's  credibility.

    If we ever thought Kelly was sane though, I'm setting that aside, he's a Trumper through and through. At this point how could he be anything but?

    Parent

    Voila! film footage exists (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:57:43 AM EST
    Kelly lied about Rep. Wilson.

    She did not brag about getting the funding.  Her speech was gracious and appropriate.

    Kelly also appears hypocritical:  It is okay for him to listen to call to the wife, but not for her family friend Rep. Wilson?

    Parent

    This is what racism looks like (5.00 / 7) (#50)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:05:37 PM EST
    An African American Congresswoman gets blamed for doing what Kelly did--listen in on telephone conversation.

    Kelly then goes out of his way to lie about Wilson's speech two years ago.  

    Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe Kelly innocently misremembered the Wilson speech.  But what does that mean?  At the time of the speech, it appears Kelly internally hated Wilson, and thus ascribed to her all these negative things.....

    That is racism....the covert kind that is hard to prove....but shows its ugly head when African American lawyers and executives can't get a cab.  

    Parent

    Yup! How could he have gotten the facts that (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:15:43 PM EST
    Wrong?

    He had rehearsed all that too! This was planned.

    The stories General Kelly tells himself.

    Parent

    Wilson 2, Trump & Lickspittle 0 (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:18:43 PM EST
    Lie no. 1.Wilson was right that Trump said that Sgt. La David Johnson knew what he was signing up for. Trump said he never said that.  Kelly basically admitted that he did, but tried to provide cover by saying he had recounted to Trump his conversation with Dunford about his own son.

    So, Trump lied, and Wilson told the truth.

    Lie no. 2.  Kelly says Wilson bragged about securing the funding.  Wrong.

    I am really fired up about this. Especially because the press, and that means you, Tweety, are kissing Trump and Lickspittle's arse.  They never learn.

    Parent

    What should we believe from (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:01:01 PM EST
    John Kelly yesterday?

    Parent
    In obvious retrospect, I believe that ... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:24:29 PM EST
    ... we shouldn't believe anything that John Kelly says anymore.

    Parent
    Yes, Kelly's (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:31:28 PM EST
    reference to the 2015 ceremony marking the new FBI field office building in Miramar was an inexact comparison laced with a racially and misogynistically tinged expression of personal animus.  

    The occasion was not a memorial service, but the dedication of a new building named for FBI agents killed in a 1986 shootout with bank robbers south of Miami.

    Money for the building was approved prior to Dr. Wilson's election to Congress.  Her contribution, acknowledged by the main speaker, then FBI Director Comey, was to help enact a law naming the building after the fallen agents, Gregan and Dove.

     Kelly could not even get the amount of money straight, saying Rep. Wilson claimed to have called up President Obama and got the $20 million to build the building. The building actually cost almost cost $ 194 million.

    Kelly will, no doubt, become a new hero to the base and, even, some of Trump's very fine people. But, he is really like the guy who cleans up after the elephant in the parade, and would never quit and give up his satisfying career in show business.  And, this is probably elephant clean up libel.

    Parent

    Wilson was viewed (5.00 / 6) (#54)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:37:50 PM EST
    favorably for getting the building named after the FBI agents--in part because she only had a month to get a bill through Congress to do it.

    The picture of a Kelly sitting there at the speech bitter and resentful of this Black woman being viewed favorably makes him look very, very small.  A perfect guy for Trump.

    Basically, we are all screwed:  Kelly will not apply the brakes to Trump--he will enable him.

    Parent

    Even if she had not known this (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 06:56:51 AM EST
    Couple since they were children, our Congressman is a special military relationship. If the military is abusing a soldier we are supposed to go to our Congressman with what we have witnessed. It is the only check on Commander's possibly toxic authority. I would not be surprised if some Reps have contacted every one of the Gold Star families they represent.

    Parent
    Josh (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by FlJoe on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 05:54:00 PM EST
    has put in brutally stark terms
    And that's the thing: Donald Trump poisons everything. It's like an abuser with a captive family; he poisons everything, inflames everything, destroys and degrades anything in his path for his own ends. No one gets out in one piece. He's poison. He's just poison. There's no other way to put it. He hurts the country every moment he's in office.


    Parent
    And Charlie Pierce chimes in: (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:04:29 PM EST
    Everything and everybody this president* touches goes bad from the inside out. And it doesn't matter to me whether people volunteered to work for him or not. In Oliver Stone's Nixon, there's a great scene on the Key Bridge at night where Ed Harris's Howard Hunt warns a very tremulous John Dean, played by David Hyde-Pierce. Nixon, Hunt tells Dean, "is the darkness reaching out for the darkness in everyone." That was true, but this is what we know now: in this, Nixon was a rank amateur.

    Link

    Parent

    i have not really (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:12:29 PM EST
    worried much until lately.  things have the feeling of spiraling out of controll.  im really starting to think this could end very very badly.

    Parent
    I've (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:57:37 PM EST
    had that feeling since January a continuous dumpster fire is no way to run a country. The scary part is there is no guide to when we reach some kind of critical mass where either the madness stops or becomes complete.

    In case you haven't noticed tRump and his staff always fan the flames of divisiveness, always. Take your pick, Charlottesville, NFL protests, Puerto Rico.... they never back down, instead pouring gas on on every flashpoint in American society big and small. Exactly what the Russian trolls are trying to do BTW.

    Parent

    yeah (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 07:11:54 PM EST
    ive noticed.  

    rachel did a segment last highlighting the fact this whole gold star flap seem deliberate to distract anyone from talking about Niger.

    at the time i sort of thought she was fanning flames of her own but the more we hear about this thing as the day went on i started thinkng she might have a point.

    its very strange the way the news of this has come out.  remember the question that launched the gold star flap was not about that.  it was just a question about why he has not spoken about the four deaths in any way on any forum.

    McCain, chairman of armed services, threatened today to subpoena the white house if they dont start talking about what happened and why.

    the fact that Kelly came out guns blazing seems like a bad sign.  plus the "other generals" were out today polishing the turd.

    very curious.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#28)
    by FlJoe on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 08:23:42 PM EST
    I did notice the question had nothing to do with calls to the families. I really think tRump mis-interpreted the question and thought he was being attacked for ignoring the fallen, leading to his default position of proclaiming himself a winner and Obama a loser. For the most part, tRump does not plan his distractions, they just come naturally so to speak.

    Not to say, that in this political/media environment it doesn't work more often than not. In this case I think the tangential firestorm he created has actually amplified the interest in the Niger story.

    Before this flap it was pretty much gone from the news. I'm sure any of the powers that be  interested in spiking this story would much prefer an anodyne statement about "honoring the fallen" and ongoing "Pentagon investigations", don't call us we'll call you.  Then on to the next bonfire.

     

    Parent

    There was chapter 2 (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 08:57:56 PM EST
    Of the diversion/distraction tonight.  It's worth watching.

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#40)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 08:39:40 AM EST
    think  it is all a distraction from this Trump fails to implement Russia sanctions he signed into law He is nothing short of a full time agent for Putin, he is actively trying to destroy this country.

    Parent
    Breaking news (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 12:02:55 PM EST
    The attack in Niger is the result of a massive intelligence failure.

    Is it better to argue about the phone calls to gold stars?

    We will see.

    Parent

    Africom has been deliberately short staffed (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 03:37:38 PM EST
    Short equipment, for years. We already spend so much money on military.

    Parent
    not really what i meant (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:23:09 PM EST
    i guess i mean i always knew thing COULD end badly and im beginning the think they will.

    Parent
    I (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by FlJoe on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 06:17:53 PM EST
    love this
    That's how he gets absolved. That's how he always gets absolved. There's always somebody willing to step up and push their soul to the middle of the table for him to gamble with and, when he loses, because he always loses at the game of being human, he reneges on the bet because that's what he always does.

    Charles at his cynical, metaphoric best

    Parent

    Lawrence O'Donnell is tearing Kelly (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 09:14:46 PM EST
    to pieces tonight for Kelly's attacks on Congresswoman Wilson.

    Totally laying Kelly out.

    Parent

    Yes, he is (none / 0) (#31)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 09:18:26 PM EST
    Kelly is looking really petty--an enabler of Trump, not the great hope of rationality in the White House.

    Parent
    Wilson was right (none / 0) (#32)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 09:19:17 PM EST
    Kelly pretty much admitted she accurately recounted the conversation.

    Parent
    And then he chastised her for eavesdropping ... (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 10:12:54 PM EST
    ... on a private conversation in which he was listening on the other line.

    "Is nothing sacred?" pleaded the former Marine general who presently works for a man who both chastised John McCain for having been a POW and bragged about grabbing women by what Monty Python once refereed to as "naughty bits."

    Indeed, he had contemplated what had come to pass and his present circumstances this morning while walking amongst the gravestones at Arlington National Cemetery -- that is, until the ghosts of my father and other residents yelled, "Get the hell of our lawn, you ingratiating kiss-ass!"

    Startled, he looked up suddenly and glanced around. And seeing nothing, he let out an audible sigh and took his leave of Arlington's denizens because indeed, nothing is sacred any more.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    W speaks (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 03:49:48 PM EST
    Those of us who never had very much good to say about W should give some credit where it's due..

    Yes, I give (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:16:07 PM EST
    President Bush great credit for this speech.  It was very good and much needed.  The dangers of the Trump Administration to the country and our constitution are so profound that we can only welcome Mr. Bush's words.  Of course, Mr. Bush has his history and own damage to contend with, but we need all the voices and alliances that can be mustered.  It would be good, if every past president publicly associated himself with President Bush's speech or presented one of his own.

    Parent
    the only other living past presidents (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 04:20:37 PM EST
    except his father who is probably to ill are democrats.

    that would be good but it would not have the same weight.

    Parent

    Somebody (none / 0) (#105)
    by FlJoe on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:49:14 AM EST
    was not impressed
    "He has no earthly idea of whether he's coming or going," Bannon said, suggesting that Bush had merely delivered a speech written for him by a speechwriter. "It's clear he had no idea what he was talking about... just like it was when he was President of the United States."

    "There has not been a more destructive presidency than George Bush's," Bannon said.

     

    Parent
    Maybe it's because I am just (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:55:05 AM EST
    So damn sick of it but lately Trump really seems to have gone off the rails.

    Is it just me or does he seem more disconnected from any kind of reality with every appearance.  

    I was watching the FOX business interview about the terrible phone call and it was really like  listening to a crazy person.  He just lies and lies and lies like no one will know.

    It's amazing.

    Parent

    Sometimes (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by FlJoe on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:56:19 AM EST
    it seems that way, but the crazy train just keeps rolling along. It's really hard to put any metric on the lunacy.  

    Personally I don't think he has fundamentally changed that much since he rode down the escalator, I think it is the environment around him that keeps turning up the magnification of the crazy.

    tRump is a one trick pony, if he gets hit he hits back twice as hard. That worked up to a point in his previous life in real estate, allowing him to bully his way through bankruptcies and lawsuits. It obviously worked in the campaign where he had a well delineated set of enemies, lying Ted, little Marco crooked Hillary, Mexicans and Muslims and the dreaded "establishment"

    Any president, Democrat or Republican, popular or not, suffers a constant barrage of attacks from day one.  Every previous president has ignored or otherwise brushed aside 99% of them, carefully planning and executing the battles they do choose to engage in. That's not in tRumps nature and he refuses to change, insuring chaos as he chooses to lash out at any criticism that has happened to catch his eye during the latest news cycle.

    At this point it makes little matter whether the lunacy is accelerating or just accumulating, it is without question ugly and dangerous.

    Parent

    OTOH there is this (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:10:21 AM EST
    Years ago, while reporting a book about a real-estate developer and reality-TV star named Donald Trump, Tim O'Brien accompanied his subject on a private jet ride to Los Angeles. The plane, as you can imagine, was overly ornate; hanging on one wall, for instance, was a painting of two young girls--one in an orange hat, the other wearing a floral bonnet--in the impressionistic style of Renoir.
    Curious, O'Brien asked Trump about the painting: was it an original Renoir? Trump replied in the affirmative. It was, he said. "No, it's not Donald," O'Brien responded. But, once again, Trump protested that it was.
    "Donald, it's not," O'Brien said adamantly. "I grew up in Chicago, that Renoir is called Two Sisters on the Terrace, and it's hanging on a wall at the Art Institute of Chicago." He concluded emphatically: "That's not an original."

    Trump, of course, did not agree, but O'Brien dropped the conversation topic and moved on with his interview. He thought that he had heard the last of the Renoir conversation. But the next day, when they boarded the plane to head back to New York City, Trump again pointed to the painting, and as if the conversation had never happened, he pointed to the fake and proclaimed, "You know, that's an original Renoir." O'Brien chose not to engage, and dropped the conversation.

    VANITY FAIR

    Parent

    The thing is (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 11:20:00 AM EST
    It seems entirely likely Trump bought it as an original and is in some kind of chronic psychotic denial.

    The millions he probably paid for it makes me smile.  Darkly.

    Parent

    Honestly (none / 0) (#110)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:42:13 AM EST
    I think a lot of us have reached critical mass. One of Hillary's funders is now running impeachment ads. the thing is they make complete sense as to why Trump needs to be removed. But then again it is up to the craven and cowardly GOP to do something and we go back to square one. So round and round we go with nothing being done.

    I wonder if the George W. and McCain speeches were attempts to tell Republicans that it is time to cut Trump loose. I don't know how much influence they have with members of congress though.
     

    Parent

    very little i expect (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:52:16 AM EST
    and the idea that the groveling band of sycophants that is the cabinet will think 25th amandment before hell freezes over is magical thinking.

    im afraid its Mueller or three more years.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:19:01 AM EST
    the only one that might even consider going along with the 25th seems to be Tillerson. And that is not enough. A change in the house in 2019 might mitigate what is going on. As far as Mueller goes, he had better have an air tight case to get rid of Trump because I certainly can see my congressman attempting to excuse any and all of Putin's agenda.

    Parent
    ieft out the best paragraph (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:55:43 AM EST
    which explains why this is not really a funny story

    While this story is comical and sad and utterly bizarre on so many levels, it's also emblematic of Trump's very essence. "He believes his own lies in a way that lasts for decades," O'Brien told me. "He'll tell the same stories time and time again, regardless of whether or not facts are right in front of his face." And, as O'Brien points out, that's what makes Trump so dangerous in his current war with the media around so-called fake news. "Its foundation is that he's the final arbiter of what is true and what isn't," O'Brien said, "and it's one of the reasons that he's so dangerous."


    Parent
    It's clear his reality is not synced with (none / 0) (#114)
    by Anne on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:14:45 AM EST
    everyone else's.

    I mean, you know it's bad when he tries to claim that he invented the word "fake" or "fake news.'

    Yesterday, we reported on some ridiculous stuff that Donald Trump had said in an interview with Mike Huckabee, including that the paper towels he threw at Puerto Ricans were "beautiful" and that he has more important things to deal with than making sure people have healthcare, but the biggest and stupidest claim he made was that he invented the word "fake"--or at least popularized its usage. As we noted, the word "fake" has been around for centuries, which means Trump is either an immortal demon or a liar, but the word experts have Merriam-Webster have dug into this a little further.

    Those looking to give Trump the benefit of the doubt have suggested that he was using "fake" like "fake news," which is a term he uses to refer to facts that he doesn't like, but Merriam-Webster has determined that he didn't invent "fake" or even "fake news." In a blog post (via the Los Angeles Times), the dictionary explains that the first uses of "fake news" first popped up in at least 1890, with the fancier-sounding "false news" popping up long before that in the 16th century. Basically, Trump absolutely did not invent "fake news," despite his claim to the contrary, unless he really is an immortal demon who has been ravaging the planet for centuries in order to prepare mankind for its ultimate doom.

    Hmmm...now there's a possibility...

    I guess what I have noticed is, as Tim O'Brien has said, Trump believes his own lies; he tells them because they fit with the reality he creates for himself.

    And I think this explains why he hits back so hard when challenged: it's threatening to this special world he lives in when people don't believe him.

    Seriously, how much more evidence do we need, and what kind of horror will he have to rain down on us, before people - the GOP - take steps to remove him from office?  

    Parent

    i was thinking (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:54:12 AM EST
    what might be the most hopeful (hopefully not magical) explanation of whats going on behind the scenes might go like this-
    Muller knows Trump obstructed justice, right?  i mean doesnt everyone who can read or watch tv know this?  he basically admitted it on network tv.  but Muller is still gathering ammunition.  working quietly and feverishly, probably, to put the most airtight case he can against Trump.
    but they know, i would assume, this would be an explosive development.  IMO potentially blood in the streets explosive.
    so Muller lurks.  i believe he may actually be waiting for Trump to do something so crazy and dangerous, so demonstrably nuts he can act when no sane person could challenge the necessity of doing it.  even house republicans.
    i even think Mattis and some others may be "in" on this.
    how freakin weird is it when its leaked that the people around a president are literally prepared to tackle him to stop him from launching nuclear weapons?  

    anyway.  silver lining guy.  its true.  but it could explain a lot.

    Parent

    So...the Richard Spencer speech didn't (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 05:25:22 PM EST
    go exactly how Spencer probably hoped:

    White nationalist heckled at University of Florida, where protesters outnumbered supporters:

    Amid the heavy presence of police on the University of Florida campus, white nationalist leader Richard Spencer got heckled for more than 30 minutes Thursday afternoon as he tried to deliver remarks and answer questions in front of a crowd of mostly protesters.

    [...]

    It's not clear Spencer ever got the chance to even start his scripted speech before the UF crowd because so many protesters repeatedly told him and his allies to "go home" and chanted, "Say it loud, say it clear, Nazis are not welcome here."

    Spencer responded by telling them that he wasn't going home, and called their response "pathetic" and childish for refusing to engage him in debate. He argued they were giving him and his white nationalist movement ammunition by shouting him down.

    Spencer was later ridiculed during a question-and-answer period. One person asked him what it felt like to be punched in the face or what he's still doing at the university when so many students had shown up to oppose him.

    Inside UF's Curtis M. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts auditorium, those opposing Spencer outnumbered those backing the white nationalist.

    There's more at the link.

    THAT'S IT!!! (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 08:20:34 AM EST
    One is a President, one goes to his grave breathing the rarefied air of a US General. This family is burying a Sargeant.

    APOLOGIZE! DO IT NOW! Neither one of you loses a damn thing. HIS CHILDREN ARE WATCHING!!!

    Apologize for what, to whom, and why? (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 09:30:39 AM EST
    Sorry, but "apologize" isn't in Trump's vocabulary. And after yesterday's shockingly disgraceful performance, in which Gen. Kelly apparently didn't even care if he had his facts in order, I very seriously doubt that it's in that f---ing jarhead's lexicon, either. No apologies, no regrets, no surrender, and take no prisoners. Yeah, that's the ticket.

    The only way these guys are going down is in flames.

    Parent

    you are just unhappy (4.20 / 5) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 09:32:23 AM EST
    about no longer being "sacred".  protected, dominated, kept pregnant and in the kitchen and for the days when you spoke when you were spoken to and worked outside he home only in the limited positions your male betters thought you could handle.

    but seriously,  what that little speech said mostly to me was that Kelly is 100% onboard with the idea of MAGA.  the delusional fixation on returing this country to a fictional past that never was and only lives in the selective memory of straight white men.  

    generals especially i would think.

    Parent

    Man (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:22:17 PM EST
    Kelly totally told us who he is in that speech and it was not pretty.

    It has gotten so ugly these days that people don't even realize they are sounding just like Nazis. I got into a discussion with a friend about the confederate statues and I said WTF are you trying to say? We had Nazis marching around them and you're putting up on Facebook the same memes the Nazis have been. He was horribly upset. I said you have to start telling the truth and quit hiding behind garbage like a kid wearing his pants too low. Anyway he unfriended me but at this point I'm ready to clear all the Trumpsters out of my facebook friend file. I'm replacing them with people from Indivisible.

    Parent

    At my recent class reunion (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 07:36:02 PM EST
    I was forced to explain why I created a new FB and many were not invited.  I was found out.

    So I got a rush of requests.  I accepted them all.  I have not posted anything on FB in a year.

    Parent

    Yeah, if there (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 08:03:01 PM EST
    was a better way to keep in contact with people I would actually delete it. Instagram is close but I understand it is owned by Facebook.

    Parent
    Ha (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 07:33:10 PM EST
    A "1" from the resident scholar

    Parent
    Lol (none / 0) (#93)
    by Boo Radly on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 08:28:29 PM EST


    Parent
    Sarcasm is dead. (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 10:54:32 PM EST


    Parent
    Detection of irony and sarcasm in print (none / 0) (#99)
    by Peter G on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:06:56 PM EST
    can be hard, and is even harder in your second (or third) language.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:40:20 AM EST
    It's very easy to see why anyone would take that comment literally.  Especially with the three previous 5's from female commenters.  Anyone might assume these three women agreed with everything in that comment.

    NOTE
    that was sarcasm

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:57:01 AM EST
    One of those 5s was male.

    THAT explains it.

    Parent

    And now video of Wilson's FBI dedication speech (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 10:58:38 AM EST
    Has surfaced

    John Kelly Lies!

    Fake (none / 0) (#44)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:11:24 AM EST
    news obviously.

    Parent
    The coverage of this (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:17:23 AM EST
    Has been a lot better that it could have been.  WOULD have been a few years ago.   Trump/Kelly, living as they do in the past, assumed a "respected general" talking personally about this will shut it right down.

    Sorry,  wrong again.

    Last night barry McCaffrey and Jack Jacobs did all they could to respect the service and said he really should, and should have, just stfu about the congress woman.

    I'm am a silver lining guy.  I admit it.

    The SL here is Kelly has exploded the myth he was anything but a yes man.  Window dressing for the apocalypse.

    I mentioned yesterday things seemed to be spiraling out of control.  Then there was Bush, Obama and McCain.

    There is a gathering of every surviving president for a disaster relief event soon.  We will hear more I think.

    I think others see spiraling out of control and that makes me feel better.

    Parent

    I am really stunned though (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:33:02 AM EST
    Just LIED, not a little....A LOT! At a podium, in front of sacred God and everyone. Bahahaha

    What has this guy gotten away with in the past?

    Parent

    Race, Lies and Video. (none / 0) (#125)
    by KeysDan on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 12:43:02 PM EST
    A precis of events Trump and Kelly mark for "Character Counts Week."   A nice mix of fabrication, militarism, and authoritarianism....waiting for Kelly to show up wearing orange pancake makeup applied with a trowel, and a golden, dead muskrat adorning his baldpate.

    Parent
    along the same lying... (none / 0) (#127)
    by leap on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM EST
    "It didn't just start now; John Kelly has always been a hard right bully." He and Trump have a lot in common. And you're right KeysDan, it's a matter of time before they both stand face-to-face and apply that orange Goop on each other's faces with Marshalltown trowels.

    Parent
    I suspect Kelly has been a rightwing (none / 0) (#159)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 10:57:39 AM EST
    Nutjob at heart for years, but I can't pick apart THAT speech for evidence because it was just days after his son's death.

    Few of us are in our right mind on that day.

    I honestly fear for Kelly's long term mental stability. There is a stoic compartmentalization that allows individuals to serve for years during war time but it's so difficult to live that way forever. Those who choose this path believe themselves strong and they are unaware of how brittle they are, how easily they fracture into irrationality.

    In order to grieve and come full circle and have the big picture come into better focus we all have to be able to weep and curse all the Gods at some point. Kelly doesn't seem able to do this.

    I have had to weather a lot of things said though when friends have been lost. Lamenting about how Americans don't vote, so why should they fight for us? The country is going to hell! It's part of a fuller grieving.

    Parent

    At the time of Kelly's (5.00 / 4) (#161)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 12:56:47 PM EST
    confirmation hearing for Secretary of Homeland Security, the ACLU posed questions for senators on his record and his willingness to speak out should Trump pursue unconstitutional proposals;  questions, explanations and clarifications sought included,

    Accusations: that Kelly, as General in charge of Guantanamo, worked to undermine President Obama's efforts to close Guantanamo;  that Kelly opposed integration of women into combat units;  that Kelly defended "enhanced interrogation";  that Kelly testified in support of officers caught urinating on Taliban corpses;  that unchecked immigration poses an "existential threat,";  that Amnesty International was critical for unsafe and inhuman treatment of Guantanamo detainees on hunger strike;  that he was opposed to decriminalization of drugs, including marijuana.

    Parent

    I knew there were emails (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 02:57:21 PM EST
    Confirming that Kelly did as he damn well pleased in Cuba, and inspired troops under him to defy their CIC gitmo policies.

    Parent
    And now Kelly triples down (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:16:23 PM EST
    And sayes Rep Wilson is all hat no cattle, just in case we didn't understand what an empty barrel is.

    Sarah says if we want to get in a debate with a 4 star Marine Corp General that's highly inappropriate? Who do these people think they are?

    It doesn't matter who they think they are. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:32:00 PM EST
    "Yes, I know who Judas was. He was a man I worked for and admired -- until he disgraced the four stars on his uniform."
    - Col. Martin "Jiggs" Casey (Kirk Douglas) to Lt. Gen. Walter Matoon Scott (Burt Lancaster), Seven Days in May (1964)

    However, it will soon matter to them very much what everyone else thinks they are.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The truth will set you free (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:46:30 PM EST
    But only when it's finished with you

    Parent
    Speaking of truth and four stars on uniforms, ... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 04:22:06 AM EST
    ... the bomb which I've been waiting to go off out here for the better part of two years now, the federal investigation into public corruption and abuse of power in Honolulu law enforcement, finally landed today with a tremendous thud and exploded. Not surprisingly, the local political world is reeling right now.

    Recently retired Honolulu Police Chief Louis Kealoha and his wife, Katherine, the No. 2 official in the city prosecutor's office, were indicted late yesterday afternoon by a federal grand jury on 20 counts of criminal conspiracy, fraud and obstruction of justice, and then arrested at 6:00 a.m. this morning by FBI agents who raided their home in the city's posh Kahala neighborhood. Also indicted and arrested for public corruption over this past week were five high-ranking officers of HPD's elite and clandestine Criminal Intelligence Unit.

    Not indicted (so far, anyway) was Honolulu City Prosecutor Keith Kaneshiro, a longtime friend of the Kealohas who many have accused of running interference for the couple by first refusing to investigate the allegations himself, and then intervening with the local U.S. Attorney's office in an effort to quash the federal investigation before it could get going.

    In fact, concern over Kaneshiro's influence within local federal law enforcement agencies was such that the investigation into the Kealohas and HPD was transferred 18 months ago to the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of California. Acting U.S. Attorney Alana Robinson flew into Honolulu from San Diego yesterday morning, leading most observers to believe that indictments were imminent. She spoke to the media today about it.

    HPD is the 20th largest police department in the country. Needless to say, what happened today is a very big deal, and this bombshell scandal is a very serious black eye for the entire law enforcement community in the City and County of Honolulu. The indictments were far more sweeping than I had imagined they would be, and federal prosecutors have intimated that more shoes will likely drop before it's all over.

    This has been a long time coming and to be honest, I'm glad it happened. Now, maybe we can finally clean up Hawaii law enforcement and rid its ranks of self-dealing bad actors who've long operated in our island communities with near-impunity.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Book 'em Dano! (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:45:12 AM EST
    Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

    Parent
    The jest is well-deserved. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 04:04:48 PM EST
    By most any measure, this is bad. And by all rights, the people of Honolulu should be ashamed of themselves for having tolerated for far too long this rancid culture of personal corruption by the upper echelons of local law enforcement.

    I am personally aware of one instance in which one of Chief Kealoha's predecessors likely swindled his elderly aunt out of her own home, which sat on lucrative beachfront real estate in east Honolulu. My wife and I knew that woman personally. She died destitute, on public assistance in a rather squalid nursing home in Makiki, as a direct result of her nephew's actions.

    But when her friends and neighbors complained to the Honolulu Police Commission and City Prosecutor's office, those complaints routinely fell on deaf ears and none of us had the necessary legal standing to file a civil lawsuit on this old woman's behalf.

    And so sadly, she refused to take any action against him herself, and died believing that her nephew would eventually do the right thing and allow her to return to her home. That poor woman never quite understood why he had moved her out of her own house in the first place when his own family moved in, within weeks after she had signed over title and deed to him. It was heartbreaking.

    This federal crackdown was a long time coming and quite frankly, at least a decade overdue. I will note here that for the most part, the HPD's rank-and-file are decent and respectable people. But their senior commanders have long run the department as though it were their own personal fiefdom, and they could depend upon their friends in the City Prosecutor's and State Attorney General's offices to cover for them and look the other way.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Kelly now says it was comments Wilson made (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:18:53 PM EST
    Outside the speech that he was referring to......sigh....my God it just isn't going to end.

    Move the goalpost (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:08:17 PM EST
    and make up some more lies. Kelly is a good conservative when it comes to all that.

    Parent
    Outside the speech (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:16:36 PM EST
    makes no sense.....First, Kelly was clear it was the speech....

    Second, the supposed reason that Wilson's comments made Kelly mad was that they occurred at the ceremony honoring the FBI agents.  Comments at a different time do not fit in the category of usurping the dedication.....

    So, just another lie......Reminds me of Trump saying that thousands in New Jersey cheered on 9-11.   They will always say the proof is out there but just not discovered yet...

    Parent

    Yeah, he was clear (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:25:50 PM EST
    After she made those horrible show boating remarks she then sat down (so she was standing and addressing) and they couldn't believe it. They were all stunned.

    Parent
    Kelly is so far off the deep end (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:24:12 PM EST
    Let's see...recent Generals who lost it?

    Tommy Franks and his wife that he took everywhere and they had to give a security clearance to :)

    Uhhhm..oh yeah...Bill Cody and "The Deep Attack"

    Flynn is a freaking traitor

    McChrystal...sigh, Petraeus....sigh, Allen/socialites....sigh, McMaster....sigh, Kelly....sigh

    I'm only leaving 20 lesser Generals out. But don't be questioning our Generals

    Parent

    Is Kelly in the (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 05:19:03 PM EST
    position of chief of staff as a general?  Kelly is a retired general; the title of chief of staff was initiated by Nixon, before that, it was appointments secretary or something similar. Most chiefs of staff have been civilians, bringing their particular experience and expertise to the work. It seems to me that Kelly brings to the job a military background, but should not be considered as in a military position.  

    In any event, Kelly should resign. He is, at best, as they often say...a distraction to the grand agenda of Trump.  With his credibility shot with every one but the deplorables, he is, to whatever extent he ever was, ineffective.

    Parent

    True KeysDan, he's not in a military position (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:27:45 PM EST
    But isn't a retired General supposed to live out his American life under that Officer Code of Ethics thing?

    It's not a legal agreement, it is an honor bound agreement. But I hear about it all the damn time.

    He's never off the hook now. He's not allowed to lie, ever, in any position.

    Parent

    And Lara Trump is a liar, too (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Towanda on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:30:50 PM EST
    She said that she had read a transcript of the call to the grieving wife and family (and Congresswoman Wilson) -- but Huckabee Sanders now says that there is no transcript.

    The question not asked was why Lara Trump -- and spouse Eric, who said something similar on another topic -- who work for the campaign were in the White House, allegedly reading office records.

    Somebody is lying there too (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:00:59 PM EST


    Parent
    someone is lying (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:14:54 PM EST
    But who
    ...all of them, katie.

    Parent
    I think it is Huckabee Sanders (none / 0) (#65)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:18:55 PM EST
    that is lying.....She is better at it than Eric's wife....Or at least has more practice....

    I think if pressed, Sanders would say it was just a "summary" but not a transcript.

    They don't even care if they get caught lying:  The base will believe them no matter what.

    Parent

    "Inappropriate" to question Kelly (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Yman on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:36:51 PM EST
    So says Sarah Slanders, when asked about the video proving the General's attack on Congresswoman was false.

    "If you want to go after General Kelly, that is up to you. If you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that is something highly inappropriate."

    Wow. The rabbit hole grows deeper still.

    Kelly is not a general anymore (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Towanda on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 01:01:43 PM EST
    and he had better realize that he is civilian staff, and his paycheck is from us.

    The arrogance of the man is appalling.  But Military Tracy warned us, many months ago, what to expect from this mess of military men in the White House, especially so many Marines.

    Parent

    Miss Huckabee Sanders, (none / 0) (#71)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 02:47:19 PM EST
    in her attempt to valorize the general (and the class of four star generals), seems to be edging toward fascism.

    Parent
    WaPo has an article detailing (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Peter G on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:23:03 PM EST
    Tr*mp's own prior attacks on four-star generals Colin Powell, John Allen and Martin Dempsey. All on Twitter. Of course.

    Parent
    Seems (none / 0) (#73)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 03:23:34 PM EST
    to be?  This country may not be there quite yet, but this WH blasted way beyond the Godwin belt ages ago.

    Parent
    A Marine general.. (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 05:59:08 PM EST
    it's as bad as spitting on one of those Rhode Island-sized flags you see at football games. Even daring to Debate Kelly.

    Sanders sounds like she'd be happy living under a Latin American military junta from the seventies.

    Parent

    this is infuriating (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by linea on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 07:19:44 PM EST
    on wednesday, a TRO ordered officials to transport for medical care promply and without delay a federally `held' undocumented pregnant teenage minor who requested abortion services mid-september.

    ACLU WINS RELIEF FOR YOUNG WOMAN SEEKING ABORTION

    however on friday, the government won an injunction(?) that gave the federal government until Oct. 31 to find her a sponsor so that the government does not have to facilitate the procedure and also ruled that the federal goverment could follow Texas State regulations mandating `two trips to obtain an abortion, with a waiting period in between, as well as an ultrasound before a woman can get the procedure.' the minor is now 15 weeks pregnant and has only a few more weeks for abortion access if Texas State laws are used as the rule the federal government follows.

    They have really put her through agony (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 01:42:29 AM EST
    I am very sorry.

    Parent
    Two Bush judges issued the ruling (none / 0) (#98)
    by Peter G on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:04:11 PM EST
    (one GWB, one GHWB; one male, one female), with Judge Millett (Obama-appointed, female) sharply dissenting. It makes a difference, in tough cases, what sort of judges we have, and who got to appoint them is often one major indicator.

    Parent
    Question no one's asked - that I'm (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Anne on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:18:39 PM EST
    aware of:

    Trump said in his Fox News interview that he had called the families of "virtually everybody' who had been killed in action since he took office.

    If that is true, why would Trump need Kelly's advice about what to say on the call to Myeshia Johnson?  

    He wouldn't.

    Which means Kelly's lies were not limited to the whopper he told about Rep. Wilson's speech.

    The rot inside these people apparently can no longer be contained, and is oozing out of every pore.

    "Virtually" (none / 0) (#150)
    by Yman on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 06:53:33 AM EST
    I've noticed Trump has started to qualify many of his statements lately.  The Atlantic and several other news outlets were able to contact 25 of the 46 families who lost kin during Trump's term:

    Of those 25, a plurality--11 families--said they had received neither a call nor a letter from the president. Nine confirmed that they had received personal calls from the president. Members of four families said they had received a letter, but no call. And members of the remaining family were contacted by the White House, but declined to meet with the president.

    He lies with such consistency that it's now the norm and most people just brush it off.

    Parent

    There (none / 0) (#151)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:26:25 AM EST
    even appears to be a lie mitigation team in place in the WH.
    In the hours after President Donald Trump said on an Oct. 17 radio broadcast that he had contacted nearly every family that had lost a military servicemember this year, the White House was hustling to learn from the Pentagon the identities and contact information for those families, according to an internal Defense Department email.

    The email exchange, which has not been previously reported, shows that senior White House aides were aware on the day the president made the statement that it was not accurate -- but that they should try to make it accurate as soon as possible, given the gathering controversy.

    link
    Multiple families of military service members killed in the line duty are now getting rush-delivered letters from President Donald Trump, days after Trump claimed he had called the immediate families of all service members who had been killed since he took office in January.
    link  

    This country is in a very ugly place and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

    Parent

    There (none / 0) (#152)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:26:25 AM EST
    even appears to be a lie mitigation team in place in the WH.
    In the hours after President Donald Trump said on an Oct. 17 radio broadcast that he had contacted nearly every family that had lost a military servicemember this year, the White House was hustling to learn from the Pentagon the identities and contact information for those families, according to an internal Defense Department email.

    The email exchange, which has not been previously reported, shows that senior White House aides were aware on the day the president made the statement that it was not accurate -- but that they should try to make it accurate as soon as possible, given the gathering controversy.

    link
    Multiple families of military service members killed in the line duty are now getting rush-delivered letters from President Donald Trump, days after Trump claimed he had called the immediate families of all service members who had been killed since he took office in January.
    link  

    This country is in a very ugly place and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

    Parent

    And now we're seeing the scrambling (none / 0) (#157)
    by Anne on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 10:07:18 AM EST
    from behind the scenes:

    Donald Trump Is Rush-Shipping Condolences to Military Families

    The Trump administration is scrambling to defend the president's characterization of his communications with grieving military families, including rush-delivering letters from the president to the families of servicemembers killed months ago. Donald Trump falsely claimed this week that he had called "virtually" all fallen servicemembers' families since his time in office.

    Timothy Eckels Sr. hadn't heard anything from President Trump since his son Timothy Eckels Jr. was killed after a collision involving the USS John S. McCain on August 21. But then, on October 20, two days into the controversy over the president's handling of a condolence call with an American soldier's widow, Eckels Sr. received a United Parcel Service package dated October 18 with a letter from the White House.

    [...]

    In the past week, The Atlantic made contact with 12 families who had been identified as having lost kin serving in the military since January. Along with those contacted by other news outlets like The Washington Post and the Associated Press, about 25 of the 46 families have been reached. Of those 25, a plurality--11 families--said they had received neither a call nor a letter from the president. Nine confirmed that they had received personal calls from the president. Members of four families said they had received a letter, but no call. And members of the remaining family were contacted by the White House, but declined to meet with the president.

    According to Roll Call, by 5 p.m. on October 17, the White House had asked and received information from the Pentagon that indicated "senior White House aides were aware on the day the president made the statement that it was not accurate--but that they should try to make it accurate as soon as possible, given the gathering controversy."

    Josh Marshall:

    There's certainly nothing wrong with catching-up on these letters that apparently had fallen through the cracks. But it's more evidence of what we learned from the Roll Call piece. The White House did not seem to have an organized process for these condolence communications. Roll Call said when the controversy first spun up they didn't even have a current list of war fatalities during Trump's presidency. Some had heard from the White House. Seemingly most or at least a large percentage had not.

    It's important to remember that the President was pressed on a different issue - why he had not publicly mentioned the deaths of the four soldiers in Niger. To the best of my knowledge, no one really had any idea whether the families had been contacted or not. That question prompted a false statement about his own actions and a smear against President Obama (as well as other Presidents). The White House knew from the beginning that Trump's claims were false. Did they tell him and he ignored the information? Or do they know there's no point? Either way, staffers at the White House went into clean up mode and all the lying, recriminations and awfulness basically spun out of control from there.

    Recall, also, that at that original Rose Garden presser, Trump said this about his response to the families of the Niger victims:

    "I've written them personal letters. They've been sent or they're going out tonight," Trump said during a press conference. "I will at some point ... call the parents and families."

    More lies?  Hard to believe it's the truth.

    Also curious about the alleged fact that he called the families of the other three victims the same day he called Myeshia Johnson - curious to me that none of them has come forward.  Did he say the same thing to them that he said to Mrs. Johnson?

    This is the same man lecturing the NFL on patriotism and respect for the country, the flag and the anthem; at a time when he unfortunately has had the opportunity to demonstrate those ideals himself, he has made a mockery of the entire process of paying the nation's condolences.

    Parent

    The Sunday shows are a grim slog (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 09:52:22 AM EST
    The only good news I could take was that Robert Costas weight loss program is working.

    It's known PBS makes you'll fat.

    €[<[¢»& spell correct (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 09:53:23 AM EST
    PBS MAKES YOU LOOK fat.

    Parent
    While grim (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 10:25:15 AM EST
    The Face the Nation interview with Khizr Khan is worth watching.

    Parent
    Thanks for the observation, (none / 0) (#160)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 12:35:45 PM EST
    I thought he looked different...a better and, probably, a healthier look.

    Parent
    Kelly's remarks about Rep Wilson (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 02:29:38 PM EST
    Even lower and less credible as it is revealed he had the names of the FBI agents wrong, he named them Grogan and Duke. The dead agents were named Grogan and Dove.

    And in an attempt to smear Rep Wilson further he brought up the 3 and 4 yr old children who were there that day and their fathers had been shot dead on the street that horrible day. Neither agent had children, one was a confirmed bachelor.

    So facts don't even matter in this White House.

    And who does have small children watching all this? Sgt La David Johnson

    Whatever (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 02:43:54 PM EST
    reputation Kelly had with the American public has completely been destroyed with that speech. He just frankly came off as another Trump hack.

    Parent
    Indeed, nothing he ever says again (none / 0) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 02:53:01 PM EST
    Should be believed

    What a horrible way to lose all credibility, dragging the whole military down with you.

    Parent

    You know who else is poison? (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Anne on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 04:02:56 PM EST
    Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who clearly is her father's daughter.

    I'm sorry, I just don't understand people like this, who will lie without batting an eye, all in the service of a pernicious and regressive agenda, which benefits such a very few people.

    Ever since I heard Kelly defend Mike Flynn, I wondered about him, and my sense that he is cut from the same cloth as Trump is getting confirmation.

    This entire administration is killing democracy.

    Parent

    They've got God on their side (none / 0) (#168)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 04:26:13 PM EST
    I really think many on the right believe that. Which is scarey, because when people really believe that, they think the normal rules of comportment no longer apply to them, because they're serving a Higher Cause. So their lies are holy lies and their viciousness is holy viciousness.

    Parent
    It's called (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:53:55 PM EST
    lying for Jesus and as long as you are lying for Jesus it's all good.

    Parent
    Yeah, he understands (none / 0) (#180)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 08:03:58 PM EST


    Parent
    Mike Huckabee (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 06:46:11 PM EST
    Absolutely believes it.  He was governor of my state.  There was never a more craven self righteous sack of poo on this earth.

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#173)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 06:55:21 PM EST
    don't know, Santorum and Cruz both deserve consideration for that title.

    Parent
    i do not believe either (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:01:27 PM EST
    in spite of their ability to dish it that Cruz or Santorum believe their own bullsh!t.

    Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, does.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#174)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 06:55:27 PM EST
    don't know, Santorum and Cruz both deserve consideration for that title.

    Parent
    They all represent a bunch (none / 0) (#177)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:31:46 PM EST
    of wild-eyed folks out there who believe it absolutely.

    And the one's who aren't into old time religion anymore have plugged into the Alex Jones parallel dimension, that achieves the impossible by making the fundamentalists seem reasonable.

    Parent

    Nancy (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 09:29:55 AM EST
    I have been sympathetic, to a point, to arguments of some democrats who say Nancy is such a polarizing figure it might be better if there was a different leader.
    however
    something occurred to me this weekend while having a conversation about what if's in government.
    we were talking about the fact that Trump is very unikely to finish his first trem and that Pence is almost certainly at least as bad.  but Pence is up to his eyeballs in this too and could also be eliminated from the line of succession.  which gets us to Paul Ryan.  nuff said.
    but then i thought, what if Mueller takes, possibly delays, until 2019 springing the trap.

    we all know democrats are likely to take back the house in which case, eliminating Trump and Pence, who would be presiden THEN???

    hail to the chief.

    but seriously, how freakin poetic would it be for the alt right and their spinless republican enablers to get President Pelosi?

    who BTW i think might make a great president.

    just daydreamin

    I like (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    your daydream :). It would be poetic justice.

    Parent
    One word (non-political) tonight! (none / 0) (#33)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 09:54:47 PM EST
    DODGERS!

    And two words for my Dodgers: (none / 0) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 19, 2017 at 10:16:56 PM EST
    ENRIQUE HERNANDEZ! - who had 3 home runs and 7 RBIs in tonight's 11-1 Game 5 rout of the Cubs.

    World Series, baby!

    Parent

    Better than Kirk Gibson (none / 0) (#59)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 01:28:46 PM EST
    well, maybe...

    Parent
    LOL! I wouldn't go that far. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 07:02:23 PM EST
    "High fly ball into right field, she is GONE!" - (Pregnant pause, as Gibson circles the bases to the crowd's pandemonium and the moment speaks for itself.) - "In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened."
    - Vin Scully, calling one of the most memorable moments in World Series history (October 15, 1988)

    I find Kirk Gibson's walk-off home run in Game 1 of the 1988 World Series to be both epic and magical for one simple reason. When I watch his seemingly anemic swing against Oakland pitcher Dennis Eckersley, who was then the premier reliever in the game, I'm still hard-pressed to understand how the ball somehow managed to find its way into the right-field bleachers of Dodger Stadium. But when he connected, the unmistakable crack of his bat said it all. Once I heard that sound 29 years ago, I immediately and instinctively knew that he had just knocked it out of there.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Another two words (none / 0) (#117)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:45:36 AM EST
    Game seven.

    Parent
    Yep. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 05:42:13 PM EST
    And in honor of the occasion, let's take a fond look back at one of the New York Yankees' great postseason collapses, the 1995 ALDS against the Seattle Mariners in which the vaunted Bronx Bombers, confidently up 2-0 coming into the Pacific Northest:

    The long-mediocre Mariners' stunning late season surge that year from 13-1/2 games down in mid-August to win their very first AL West crown, followed by their multiple late-game heroics to upset the heavily favored Yankees in the ALDS, likely saved major league baseball in Seattle.

    Two weeks later, the Washington State Legislature in special session authorized King County to issue bonds for the construction of Safeco Field, precluding the possibility of the Mariners' threatened relocation north to Vancouver, B.C. once their Kingdome lease expired after the 1997 season.

    And to the ultimate credit of the Yankees, that venerable franchise simply shrugged off their disappointing 1995 finish, hired Joe Torre as their manager the following season, and then proceeded to win four of the next five World Series.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    From (none / 0) (#48)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    the "many fine people files" 3 men charged with attempted homicide following shooting after Spencer speech
    Shortly before 5:30 p.m., it was reported that a silver Jeep stopped to argue with a group of protesters and began threatening, offering Nazi salutes and shouting chants about Hitler to the group that was near the bus stop.

    During the altercation, Tenbrink produced a handgun while the Fears brothers encouraged him to shoot at the victims. Tenbrink fired a single shot at the group which thankfully missed the group and struck a nearby building.



    The week that right wing (none / 0) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 03:32:20 PM EST
    nut jobs are pining about the golden days of yore, when women were sacred, and that old timey religion was flying high,  no one took a knee. and AIDS patients conveniently, and cost-effectively, died.  

     And, now comes roaring out of the past,the lovely Betty Price, a George State Representative and wife of the disgraced Tom, who, apparently, had some thinking time while flying around the world on the taxpayer's dime with her insider trading (alleged) husband, and recently canned Sec of HHS.  

    At a Georgia House Commission on Health, Betty asked for advise on legal methods to control the spread of HIV these days, such as quarantine and surveillance of partners. And, to manage costs.

     Betty, who like her husband, Tom, is a physician, so she is aware of all the medical advances since 1986 that allow HIV people to live longer, healthier lives.

    But, her awareness does not seem to come up roses:  "It seems to me to be almost frightening the number of people who are living that are potential carriers...not carriers, with potential to spread. Whereas, in the past they died more readily and at that  point are not posing a risk." True enough, the dead pose a lesser risk. And, treatment costs are more manageable.

    Betty Price also seems to have missed some continuing medical education credits, putting her medical license at risk.  Transmission of the AIDS virus is not only communicable through sexual intimacy, but also, through drug use, particularly, the sharing of needles.  Betty could check on that with Mike Pence, who found a major HIV outbreak in southern Indiana after he slow-walked a needle exchange program because God.  

    This was (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 04:39:43 PM EST
    talked about in my indivisible group. It just seems to get worse every year and the more control Republicans get over the state. We're working to change it but it is going to be a long slog I'm afraid. At some point all this nonsense is going to make businesses start leaving GA.

    And I just found out that the person suing all the universities in order to get the Spencer Nazi a speaking gig lives here in GA.

    Parent

    whai is a (none / 0) (#84)
    by linea on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:34:31 PM EST
    indivisible group? thank ypu.

    Parent
    Google is your friend (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 06:48:05 PM EST
    indivisible grouos

    Parent
    holy hell (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 03:49:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Way (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    way beyond the belt. This is the ugliness you are afraid of, while the tRumpster fires blaze this kind of talk gets normalized and actually implemented.

    Parent
    Everything's nuts now (none / 0) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 04:36:09 PM EST
    Phil Mudd just said we need to stop this. Everyone needs to go to a 2 for 1 happy hour and let Ladavid be honored properly and buried.

    Then Wolf Blitzer says, "We will return to discuss all of this more".

    Some guy on tv (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 07:10:11 PM EST
    Just suggested the 4 men in Niger may have been fired on by French troops because they were not informed the French were in the area.

    That would definitely qualify as a massive intelligence failure.

    I could see that happening (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 08:08:59 AM EST
    But it doesn't explain the loss of Ladavid unless he took off on the run wounded.

    That wouldn't be considered an intelligence failure though, that would be a communications failure.

    Parent

    on rapists asked to leave university (none / 0) (#94)
    by linea on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 08:34:53 PM EST
    Betsy DeVos's new `boys will be boys' sexual assault guidelines have been challenged in court with the new policy described as "unlawful, arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, and otherwise not in accordance with the law,"

    the new DeVos guidlines instruct universities to use a more onerous burden of proof - the clear and convincing standard - in the case of sex-based civil rights claims. the standard for school expulsion for racism and other protected class categories remains `preponderance of the evidence' which is the long-held standard for civil rights claims.

    I read that Wendy Murphy filed the suit (none / 0) (#95)
    by McBain on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 09:31:12 PM EST
    I hadn't heard from her in a while.  Her comments of the Duke Lacrosse and Kobe Bryant cases were absurd.

    Something needs to change with sexual assault decisions in schools. What's going on now isn't fair to the accused.

    Parent

    you're confused!! (1.00 / 1) (#96)
    by linea on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 09:43:06 PM EST
    this has nothing to do with the Duke Lacrosse wankers hiring an exotic dancer. this has nothing to do with criminal conviction. this is about sexual-assault victims filing a civil rights violation to have the (alleged) rapist removed from the school that the victim is attending.

    Parent
    No, Linea, it isn't about filing (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Peter G on Fri Oct 20, 2017 at 11:11:23 PM EST
    civil rights claims. It is about the federal Dept of Education's "guidance" (backed by threat of loss of federal funds) to colleges and universities about how they are to conduct on-campus disciplinary hearings against students to resolve accusations of sexual harassment and rape.

    Parent
    This could be interesting. (none / 0) (#119)
    by ragebot on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 09:56:25 AM EST
    In 1992 congress mandated all documents related to JFK's death be released unless the prez had a problem with it.

    Trump just tweeted he has no problem doing it.

    While some of Trump's tweets really seem off the wall I am in complete agreement with this one.  It has been way too long that these documents have been kept hidden.

    Just hope there are no more glitches.

    I wonder why they weren't released before? (none / 0) (#120)
    by McBain on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 10:00:10 AM EST
    Would they make certain people/agencies look bad and therefore presidents were pressured into not releasing them?

    Parent
    As I recall, the family requested (none / 0) (#128)
    by Towanda on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 12:57:00 PM EST
    this--and even longer. But this court ruling apparently (from what I have encountered in my research) is the standard delay in archives.

    Parent
    LOOK!! over there!! (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 01:11:00 PM EST
    It's the secret JFK files!!!

    Parent
    That was (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:06:22 PM EST
    exactly my thought. The Gold star thing isn't working out so good so let's talk about the "secret JFK file" which is right up the ally of his conspiracy addled base of supporters.

    Parent
    There is nothing "conspiracy addled" (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:17:26 PM EST
    about recognizing that the eye-witness testimony as well as the forensic evidence (acoustics, ballistics, autopsy) -- plus analysis of the frames of the Zapruder film and other photographic evidence -- point collectively to the participation of two if not three shooters in Dallas on 11/22/63, at least one to the front. If so, then necessarily there was a conspiracy. I have no idea who (other than Oswald, I suppose) was part of that conspiracy, or what their politics or motive was. Contrary to the Warren Commission, however, that's what the evidence points to.

    Parent
    I'm not against (none / 0) (#146)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 07:21:09 PM EST
    evidence but it appears that Trump supporters don't deal with facts and evidence.

    Parent
    For some reason whats stuck (none / 0) (#166)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 03:43:28 PM EST
    in my craw after all these years is the public statements made by the well-connected CIA spooks Frank Sturgis and David Morales in which they all but said Kennedy got what was coming to him.

    When the footsoldiers are unashamedly making statements like that, one wonders how many in the higher echelons felt that way back then.

    Parent

    The biggest problem (none / 0) (#169)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 04:30:54 PM EST
    for almost anyone who has fired a bolt action weapon is that Oswald never seemed to have acquired or maintained the necessary skills to fire shots capable of hitting moving targets in the time frame necessary.  While he was in the service his marksmanship deteriorated over time not to mention he accidently shot himself and for what ever reason inadvertently fired his weapon into the jungle while on duty.  Not the skill set you would look for in an assassin.  

    I have little doubt he was mentally unbalanced, probably in great part due to childhood experiences.  But strange and unexplained actions leading up to and after the prez was killed; not to mention the strange facts surrounding Oswald being killed beg for a better explanation than a crazy lone wolf killer who was then killed by a psycho strip club owner.  Something the majority of Americans seem to agree with me about.  I wish I could find a more recent poll than this one but the trend line does show a trend of fewer folks thinking there was a conspiracy.  Given no real news to drive this decrease I suspect the reason is newer poll respondents have no personal memories of the incident and simply don't care.

    Just as an aside it really bothers me that some posters here are dissing this release as a "look, a shiny new object".  Not to mention snide remarks about Ruby shooting Oswald during Sunday School.  Ruby shot him at 11:21 CDT, which for me in the EDT zone would be after 12:00 which is when church gets out.

    But the bottom line for me is why did it take so long to release these documents.  If there is nothing new in them, as some have posted, why not release them in a more timely manner?

    Parent

    It was recently verified (none / 0) (#171)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 04:49:25 PM EST
    that Oswald had contacts with CIA-directed Cuban ex-pats who were involved in covert actions against Cuba.

    So was Oswald pro-communist or anti-communist? When you examine the details in more depth, the picture gets cloudier and cloudier and less the comforting open-and-shut "legend" that's been foisted on the public for decades.

    This is a guy who was handing out pro-Castro pamphlets on the street in New Orleans while working across the hall from the foaming-at-the-mouth anti-communist Guy Bannister. There's just a lot of things that don't pass the smell test.

    Parent

    Actually they're the kind of people (none / 0) (#142)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:22:51 PM EST
    who would've tried to plug Kennedy.

    When he came to Dallas, the John Birch Society put up Wanted For Treason posters all over the city.

    All that "Obama's a secret commie" stuff was nothing new.

    Parent

    One of them (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:39:50 PM EST
    started the Obama is a socialist thing with me and I said you guys said Bill Clinton was a communist. That looks so incredibly stupid in hindsight that it shut him right up.

    If we can actually survive trump maybe he will do the entire country a favor and kill off the GOP.

    Parent

    Not a court ruling (none / 0) (#138)
    by ragebot on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:05:28 PM EST
    Congress passed a law in 1992 sealing the records for 25 years at which time the prez had the option of releasing them.

    Parent
    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Towanda on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:32:37 PM EST
    for the correction.

    Parent
    They claimed they didn't know (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 05:18:18 PM EST
    a pro-Castro ex-Soviet defector was working in a building facing the parade route and they're worried about looking bad Now?

    Parent
    I'm betting on resoundingly uninteresting (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 05:09:58 PM EST
    a lot can happen to documents in fifty years.

    Parent
    The link (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by ragebot on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 05:59:15 PM EST
    mentioned that some of the files contained details about how US and Mexico worked together to shadow Oswald when he visited the USSR consulate in Mexico City to get visas to visit Cuba and the USSR; which was some new stuff.  There was a hint that some previously redacted documents would also be unredacted (is that a word).

    Maybe it is just because I lived through this.  During my TV HS history class the teacher changed the educational channel to regular broadcasts.  I saw Ruby kill Oswald live on TV.  I remember the Warren Commission and all the debate about what I considered reasonable things to tin foil hat theories.  It might seem like ancient history to some but I suspect if you lived thru it you might have a different take than this is just some shiny thing.

    Parent

    Wasn't that a Sunday? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by jmacWA on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 06:00:48 AM EST
    IIRC

    Parent
    Ruby shot (none / 0) (#153)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 08:52:52 AM EST
    Oswald on November 24, 1963, which was a Sunday.  Maybe, this was observed during Sunday school, in keeping with this TV eye witness accounting.

    Parent
    I lived through it (none / 0) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 09:50:41 AM EST
    And I am bemused by the hope/expectation this will tell us anything we either do not know for sure or strongly suspected.

    I would love it if it does.  When it does I will pay attention.

    Parent

    Oswald was shot (none / 0) (#170)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 04:32:54 PM EST
    at 11:21 CDT which translates to 12:21 EDT in Florida where I lived.

    Maybe you need to look at your watch.

    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#181)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 08:40:28 PM EST
    Oswald was shot at 11:21 AM Central (12:21 PM Eastern).

      Is there a difference of opinion on the date of the Ruby shooting of Oswald as November 24, 1963?  or that November 24, 1963 (at 11:21 central/12:21 eastern) was a Sunday? It is more a calendar issue than a watch issue, here, I believe.

    Parent

    JFK was killed on Friday Nov. 22, 1963. (none / 0) (#182)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 10:18:27 PM EST
    I was at school. The principal played the radio over the PA system. We all heard Cronkite's announcement of Kennedy's death.

    We, the entire country, were glued to the TV from Friday afternoon through the entire weekend until after the funeral and burial on Monday Nov. 25.

    That weekend is my first memory of  24/7 TV. I, too, was watching in real time and saw Jack Ruby step out of the crowd and shoot Oswald right in front of the police and reporters.

    So much happened that weekend, so many memorable events were compressed into such a short timeframe that it would be easy to mix up where one was when watching something happen.

    Parent

    My school sent us home (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 10:59:17 PM EST
    I watched it all there

    Parent
    I don't know how new that is (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:05:35 PM EST
    I remember the CIA claiming years ago that they had the Mexico City Cuban consulate under surveillance, but that the cameras malfunctioned on the day Oswald visted.

    Parent
    I simply can not (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 10:53:56 AM EST
    Get the image of young beautiful Lupita Nyong'o giving fat old hairy Harvey a massage out of my head.

    I wish I had never heard that but it's one of the images that will sink him.

    As someone pointed out on the TV (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Anne on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 11:38:18 AM EST
    this morning, this can't just be about Weinstein; it has to be about Weinstein-as-poster-boy for an attitude and culture that has to change.

    The #MeToo campaign may be the most powerful thing to come out of the Weinstein disclosures, because it makes clear that this isn't just a Hollywood thing: this stuff has happened and is happening to millions of women living and working in ordinarty places, living ordinary lives.

    I hope it starts conversations between men and women, between mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, in lunchrooms and boardrooms, in dining rooms and bedrooms.  

    I hope it empowers women to speak up and be strong.  And demand and expect better.

    And yes, #MeToo.  I don't think I know a woman who can't say that.

    Parent

    Me, too (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Towanda on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 12:54:03 PM EST
    but I don't think that this, and we, will change a thing.

    Because we women are not the problem.

    When men post a Me,Too campaign, admitting their harassment -- I have seen only a few do so -- that will be the beginning of change.

    And that is not going to happen, not in this country's culture.

    Parent

    Me, too (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Zorba on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 05:16:33 PM EST
    As well, Towanda.
    And I agree.  I don't think that a whole heck of a lot of things will profoundly change until this generation dies off.

    Parent
    I don't think change will come with ... (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 12:02:52 AM EST
    ... men admitting their own role as harassers of women. Rather, I believe it will happen when men:

    • Stop enabling their offending brethren by ignoring or minimizing instances of abusive behavior whenever we see it occur; and

    • Cease counseling women to not make trouble by complaining about abuse whenever it happens to them.

    Most of us men are decent folk and aren't guilty of sexual harassment personally. But I daresay most of us -- myself included -- have often been guilty of looking the other way or perhaps worse still, harboring a patronizing attitude toward women's concerns. As men, we clearly need to start actually caring about the issue and speaking out more forcefully about it than we have in the past.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    #Me too (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 06:09:08 PM EST
    was literally my life everyday from the age of 22 to about 27. If I hadn't worked with so many gays i can't imagine how much worse it would have been.

    Parent
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 11:43:29 AM EST
    But it's really REALLY hard when the president of the U.S., the most powerful person on earth as far as ending it, the figure head of our country and the guy whose PICTURE IS ON THE WALLS OF EVERY SCHOOL......

    Sorry.  

    Your are right.  Can't be the story if Harvey.

    But there are miles to go before we sleep.

    Parent

    Why am I picturing Camille Paglia (none / 0) (#131)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 21, 2017 at 02:51:23 PM EST
    coming out (soon to be all over youtube) and claiming that this is about women wielding their tremendous sexual power throughout history in order to make their mark on the world.

     

    Parent

    That would be the 'Cleopatra Syndrome,' ... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 22, 2017 at 07:45:22 PM EST
    ... by which women who are otherwise incapable of making serious headway in this world simply throw us menfolk a "come, hither" look and -- well, you know.
    ;-D

    Parent
    Good (none / 0) (#184)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 07:41:56 AM EST
    question, Why Is Bill Browder Banned from America?

    Lawsuits dropped. Sanctions not implemented. Putin's enemies banned. Must be the "adoptions".

    Librul fake news (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 08:31:36 AM EST
    Lindsey was asked about the sanctions yesterday.  His response on MTP was interesting.

    He said the Wil "hold the president accountable" but other things too.

    Parent

    Trump officially calls gold star widow (none / 0) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 11:06:41 AM EST
    A LIAR

    Seriously.  How much more of this do we have to take?  What, seriously WHAT will it take?

    Look at how much we've already taken... (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    it's been something every week, sometimes multiple times a week - it's been relentless, to the point where I think we're all a little uneasy when more than half a day passes without something new.

    Worries me that we've just come to expect the chaos, and that this is our new normal.  We're all just frogs bobbing around in an increasingly hot pot of water - I have a feeling we might boil to death before Trump gets even a scratch on his orange posterior.

    What takes normal to unacceptable?  What would have to happen?  Is it going to take pushing the nuclear button and starting a war?  If the GOP can't get tax cuts passed, will that be enough for them to make a move against him?  Because I don't see this ending because of something Democrats do - we are all being held hostage to the Republican parties (plural because I don't think there's one, true GOP anymore).

    I have to tell you, I've been waking up of late wondering if this could possibly be the day I'll put on the TV for the morning news and find out that Trump died in his sleep.  But I don't think we're going to get that lucky.

    In some ways, I hate pinning my hopes on Mueller, because I have the sinking feeling that Mueller may be able to get a lot of the people around Trump, but it remains to be seen if he can actually come up with enough evidence to take down Trump himself.  

    The only scenario I like is the one where both Trump and Pence are forced to resign and the Democratic Speaker of the House becomes the president.  

    Parent

    It was only a matter of time (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 01:26:50 PM EST
    The "man" is a sad excuse for a human being, let alone a President.

    Parent
    And General Kelly nurtured it (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 02:52:14 PM EST
    Some in the military will be compelled to choose sides in this "discussion" forever now. Thanks for the fractures General Kelly.

    None of this had to end up this way

    Parent

    There (none / 0) (#189)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 11:38:27 AM EST
    is no bottom, I'm afraid.

    Parent
    I just put up a new open thread (none / 0) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Oct 23, 2017 at 11:47:04 AM EST
    Sorry for the lack of blogging the past several days.

    Thursday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)