home

Wednesday Open Thread: Ketchup Edition

Who doesn't put ketchup on steak? They go together like coffee and milk, peanut butter and jelly, pork chops and applesauce. The only steaks I don't eat with ketchup are those in fajitas and Thai and Vietnamese steak salads (the chili-lime sauce is great.) Hamburgers and meatloaf go with ketchup, why not steak? (I'd never put it on a hotdog though, beef or not, and I never go near mayonnaise on anything. Grossest food ever.)

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Sunday Open Thread: Change Your Clocks | Fed. Judge Halts Trump's Immigration Order Nationally >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Some ideas (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:01:52 PM EST
    for Trump and Ryan to keep their so called health plan from completing its drain circle. Ideas to build on Obamacare that may be popular with their base. Call it Obamacare reform, a term usually reserved by Republicans for dismantling, but maybe appropriate given the Republican dilemma. It does not meet the goal of cutting taxes for the rich and cutting benefits for the poor, but it may save your bacon.

     Reduce co-pays and deductibles; reduce drug prices and co-pays for prescription drugs; lower the age for Medicare eligibility to the age of 55; expand Medicaid; expand access to health care to rural America, using telehealth tactics with appropriate reimbursement; fully fund Planned Parenthood; provide college tuition to assist in preparing for the training of health care professionals, and permit immigrants to participate.  For details, see plans presented by Hillary Clinton in her campaign.

    To make their sales pitch for their new and improved Obamacare, they could let Americans in on the closely held fact that significant revenue to support Obamacare stems from special taxes on high incomes (0.9% payroll surtax on earnings and 3.8% tax on net investment incomes--$200,000/$250,000 single/couple, or greater). Just jettison plans to give about half of this source of revenue in tax cuts for the wealthy and the other half to reduce the deficit relatively little, so as to reduce the debt by even less.

    It may also be added that Medicaid, which funds so much of children's health, the poor, especially poor working mothers, the elderly, long term nursing home care, and provides for about half of the births in this country, is essential to American values held so dear by Trump and Ryan's followers. Indeed, the time is ripe for Medicaid to be standardized and assumed, in whole, by the federal government.

    Of course, Medicare for All would be another option; Trump and Ryan might also give that one a try.  In either case, I am sure Mrs. Clinton would not object to the adoption of her ideas.

    They would (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:11:35 PM EST
    rather fail than use any of Hillary's ideas. Good thing she put so much thought into her policies 'cause we're going to be running on them. She made it easy for the future.

    Mike Luckovich did a cartoon with Obamacare on the chopping block with Ryan ending up chopping his own head off. So true.

    Parent

    I wonder how Paul Ryan would taste? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:26:06 PM EST
    I'm thinking the slime factor would fall somewhere between poorly-cooked okra and a moray eel..

    I think l'd require some fava beans and a nice Chianti..;-)

    Parent

    he would definitely (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:26:41 PM EST
    taste like chicken

    Parent
    you know where that fava beans (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:35:25 PM EST
    and chianti reference comes from?

    Parent
    see your Hannibal (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:58:04 PM EST
    and raise you a Lestat,...

    "...evil doers are easier, and they taste better..."

    Parent

    Luv it (none / 0) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:49:26 PM EST
    What a hoot

    Parent
    Ketchup on Steak? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:14:05 PM EST
    Oh my.  My family is from Texas where they invented steak.  No, Jeralyn, that is just not right.  Steak sauce like A-1 or Heinz 57.  Barbecue sauce for ribs.

    Just not right.

    Ketchup (or even Catsup) on steak... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:57:25 PM EST
    sorry...  nooo..

    Both words are derived from the Chinese ke-tsiap, a pickled fish sauce. It made its way to Malaysia where it became kechap and ketjap in Indonesia. Catsup and katchup are acceptable spellings used interchangeably with ketchup, however, ketchup is the way it is popularly used today.


    Parent
    I'd imagine... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:04:17 PM EST
    that Chinese ke-tsiap is nothing like our ketchup, just as food in China is nothing like our "chinese food".

    Our ketchup on fish sounds worse than ketchup on steak...even a Gorton's fish stick deserves better than ketchup;)

    Parent

    Jeesus, a Gorton's Fish Stick! (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:25:21 PM EST
    You make me choke on my coffee.

    Yea, the Chinese didn't have tomatoes!  

    Until the Columbian Exchange (New World native plant).

    Parent

    Can't do authentic (none / 0) (#66)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:52:35 PM EST
    Dim Sum.  Not cooked enough. Give me authentic American Chinese Fried Rice.

    And, I love Japanese Sushi--at least the California Roll, which I know they must eat in Japan all the time.

    Parent

    What kind of Dim Sum are you eating that (none / 0) (#90)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    is not cooked enough?

    Can't do authentic Dim Sum.  Not cooked enough.

    It was one of my staple foods in NYC. Have not had decent Dim Sum since I moved to FL. I miss it :-(.

    Parent

    A couple of (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:28:30 PM EST
    times here in SoCal.   I love potstickers but the stuff I got was too doughy

    Parent
    I have never had doughy pot stickers at a (none / 0) (#136)
    by vml68 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:07:09 AM EST
    Dim Sum place but have had some at american chinese restaurants. Agree with you, those were pretty disgusting.

    Parent
    Yes MKS you can order (none / 0) (#116)
    by fishcamp on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 12:40:49 AM EST
    a California roll in every sushi bar in the world that I've ever been to, and that's a lot of sushi joints.

    Parent
    Even A-1 ain't right... (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    if we're talking prime cuts like porterhouse and ribeye.

    The only acceptable steak sauce for prime cuts is chimichurri.

    Parent

    A good steak doesn't need extra sauce (none / 0) (#22)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:44:18 PM EST
    I only break out the A-1 when I mess something up

    A sandwich, on the other hand, always needs something.... usually mayonnaise.

    Parent

    Something about that chimichurri... (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:51:43 PM EST
    though, really brings out the flavor of the meat.

    If any country knows steak, it's f*cking Argentina.  

    Parent

    My family and your family steak together (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 04:31:02 PM EST
    If you have to put A-1 on it, what in the hell did you do to ruin that steak to have to cover it up like that? All adults eat medium rare, men with small penises order it bloody rare, children are allowed medium until grown :)

    Parent
    Purists (none / 0) (#64)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:45:59 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:08:40 PM EST
    And I had to marry someone with this religious belief. You can be Wiccan and dance naked worshipping trees, you can believe Jesus visited Native Americans, you can believe the messiah hasn't even returned yet....my family don't care. But if you eat a steak well done with ketchup, you might as well eat babies, same consequences in my family.

    This is how we all knew Trump was insane and trash immediately.

    Parent

    No sheet (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:26:43 PM EST
    I did not click on the link in Jeralyn's diary.  I had no idea the Cheeto did that.  Then, I read your post.

    Parent
    The first time I read that he insists (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:33:50 PM EST
    On steak at every meal of any significance and that he ruins the meat and then pours ketchup on it, it was like being slapped :)

    Parent
    Brings to mind how Richard Nixon (none / 0) (#137)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:08:02 AM EST
    had cottage cheese with ketchup for lunch everyday. And then there's the famous story of how the Reagan Agriculture Department proposed a regulation for the school lunch program under which ketchup in the cafeteria was classified as a vegetable option.

    Parent
    Very astute observation. (none / 0) (#186)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:24:10 PM EST
    One that I made as well. I thought Drumpf's manner of eating steak was very telling. This is a guy that tries to push elegance, yet dines like a hick. I agree with many others here that a good steak does not need steak sauce of any kind.

    Parent
    I agree with the chimichurri. (none / 0) (#89)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:02:58 PM EST
    Though, I do like a good Bernaise sauce or sometimes a creamy horseradish.

    Ketchup....shudder!

    Parent

    I can do a little Bernaise (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:57:13 PM EST
    And then there's truffle butter, I had a ribeye for dinner but I just made my eyes roll back in my head. I've been sick all day so steaks were my wonderful husband's treat tonight for feeling poorly girl. I just visited the kitchen though. A trainwreck went off in there. And no truffle butter because as much as I love that my husband hates it :)

    And a little ground horseradish, I can do that.

    Parent

    I sometimes put ketchup on french fries. (none / 0) (#175)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:55:45 PM EST
    And that is it for me and ketchup. Also, other than the tiniest amount needed to hold tuna salad together, I reject mayo. Cannot stand it. Never put it on a sandwich. The mouthfeel is horrendous.

    Mustard. I love mustard. Grainy mustard, dijon mustard, brown deli mustard, mustard with horseradish. I love them all. Always have. Even as a small child i chose mustard over ketchup or mayo. It is my go-to sandwich condiment. Unless my sandwich is an Italian concoction that is better served by oil and vinegar.

    I am sad to learn that there is no place for me in MT's family as I always have my steak medium well. Cannot stand to see any hint of blood on my plate.

    And do not get me started on hot dogs! When I was a wee toddler my mother, so the story goes, gave me a bit of hot dog with lunch one day. I immediately spit it out, grimaced and shouted "NO!". I have never eaten a hot dog since.

    Parent

    So true MKS (none / 0) (#35)
    by fishcamp on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:44:00 PM EST
    I detest ketchup, it's loaded with sugar.

    Parent
    So true MKS. (none / 0) (#36)
    by fishcamp on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:45:53 PM EST
    I detest ketchup, it's loaded with sugar.

    Parent
    Sorry about that. (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by fishcamp on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:55:00 PM EST
    Finally made it to Aspen for all the festivities, and am having a bout with altitude sickness.  Guess it renders double posts among other debilitating symptoms.  Thought I was immune to it due to 40 years of living at altitude.  They do make otc altitude pills that may be working.

    I'm staying at my friends magnificent Victorian home, and am quite happy reading while waiting for this evenings World Cup ski racing cocktail party, where I'll see friends from my era of ski racing.  Tomorrow is the film showing, so I'm taking it easy.  More reports to follow.

    Parent

    Sounds like a total blast, enjoy! (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:10:42 PM EST
    It would take me a couple of (none / 0) (#65)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:46:52 PM EST
    days.  

    The first night can be hard to get to sleep.

    Parent

    Husband goes to Aspen every February and (none / 0) (#91)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:13:56 PM EST
    surprisingly has never had any issues with altitude sickness.


    Parent
    Ketchup was a huge hit in the U.S (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:59:02 PM EST
    right from the beginning.

    My son and I collect artifacts, and we once excavated an 1870s-1880s trash pit in the woods that was loaded with early, blue-green Heinz Ketchup bottles' -- and various medicinal remedies for indigestion, I might add.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#50)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:52:48 PM EST
    the survey says..
    Over half (56 percent) say they disapprove of the practice. Only 27 percent are okay with it. And another 17 percent don't seem to care either way.


    Parent
    Send lawyers, guns, and money (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 04:04:58 PM EST
    the Ketchup has hit the fan.

    Parent
    Marijuana.. heroin... what's the difference? (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:03:20 PM EST
    I don't even want to know (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    how many degrees he's removed from the privatized prison complex..

    Not many, I bet.

    Where are all the self-styled "libertarians" who saw Trump as the lesser-of-two-evils, now??

    Parent

    Ketchup is for french fries. (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 06:29:43 AM EST
    And I won't scrape it off a burger if it comes that way.

    I am in the 'if a steak needs a condiment besides a rub of some sort, you ruined it' camp!

    Mayo: need it on most sandwiches. And tuna and chicken salad, natch.  I'll put it this way - I have mayo in the fridge always, ketchup rarely.

    When I was a kid... (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by desertswine on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 12:00:26 PM EST
    we would go to this amusement park on the Jersey side of the River.  It was called "Palisades Park" and I remember that we would get fries there that came in a paper cone and were sprinkled with vinegar and salt.  

    Parent
    Yum - like English chips (none / 0) (#164)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 12:19:08 PM EST
    I like that too.

    Parent
    I grew up (none / 0) (#169)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:30:31 PM EST
    not much more than five miles from Palisades Park. Was there many, many times as a kid.

    Parent
    ah - ha ha... (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by desertswine on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:29:42 PM EST
    Freddie "Boom Boom" Cannon...  Thanks.

    Parent
    All of this said, I refuse to make any (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 11:27:19 AM EST
    kind of a political or character judgement of people based on food choices. I'm too much of a committed omnivore for that!

    Where you buy the food is another story. Not giving my money to companies that donate to causes I do not support.

    Talk is cheap and Trump (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by KeysDan on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:19:10 PM EST
    talk is worthless.  For a truthful look at Trump's plans for the country go to his budget.   It does Louis XVI proud, but no cake from Marie A. This nasty budget may not survive the Congress, but it will survive the thought processes of the Trump Administration.

      The budget reveals, in numbers, that a Trump government's purpose is to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted. A government by and for the rich, and, the military contractors--not necessarily mutually exclusive.

     The budget shows a cruel and shortsighted government, from cuts to elimination of programs that do not really save all the much money.  Legal services, food stamps, after school programs, school lunches, NEA, NEA, CPB, research, teacher training programs, programs for women, infants and children.  

    And, how morally bankrupt to you have to be to eliminate "Meals on Wheels"  A savior for live alone and home bound, with half a million veterans  served per year, and service for about 20% of seniors.  Old people often neglect their health when left alone and forget to eat or decide preparing a meal is too difficult to do. A good meal or two a wee keeps malnutrition from exacerbating any existing physical and mental conditions.  At least, Reagan kept catsup on the school lunch menus, counting it as a vegetable.

    What better name for an influential (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:45:48 PM EST
    talk radio guy than "Cowherd"?

    And no, I'm not trying to occupation-shame actual cattle herders or radio hosts. Not necessarily.

    Re: sarcastic and Milo Yiannopolous. (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Mar 17, 2017 at 01:20:12 AM EST
    There is a world of difference between self-respecting gay men like former Congressman Barney Frank and our own CaptHowdy, and a nasty, self-loathing anti-LGBT queen like Milo.

    Just as some guys like Milo love to wear strands of pearls in public, some guys like you prefer to clutch them instead.

    Aloha.

    My dad (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:52:36 AM EST
    considered it an insult if you used ketchup or steak sauce with his steaks. So I grew up never using either with steaks and truthfully IMO if they are well cooked they don't need either. However I have used ketchup on poorly cooked steaks.

    Mayo is a love hate thing I have decided. For years and years I would not touch mayo but then at some point in my 20's I started using it sparingly and sparingly is about all I like. My husband's family is the Mayo Family. I have never seen anybody use as much mayo as they do. I will not let him make me a sandwich because the mayo literally drips out of the sandwich.

    When we visited Chile, while one of our daughters (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:21:47 PM EST
    was studying there, we were astonished to see a bowl of mayonnaise as a standard condiment on every dinner table. The Chileans put gobs of it on everything. Particularly interesting to us were the hotdogs that are sold by street vendors. Most popular way of preparing and buying one is the "completo" (equivalent to "with everything") -- which turns out to mean, a hotdog on a bun with mayonnaise and guacamole.

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:46:39 PM EST
    maybe my husband's family had Chilean roots. They LOVE mayo on hot dogs. That's sacrilege in my family. Nothing but mustard, onion, chili etc. is what we put on hot dogs.

    Parent
    If I'm not mistaken... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:56:17 PM EST
    they put mayo on the perros calientes in Mexico too, but I cannot confirm as I'd be damned if I was gonna eat hotdogs while in Mexico.

    Parent
    I'm with you (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:09:11 PM EST
    on that. When we were in Mexico about the last thing I wanted was any American food. I wanted to eat what the Mexicans eat.

    Parent
    Ya know... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:49:19 PM EST
    if the xenophobes really wanted to stoke immigrant fear, they shouldn't have said "taco truck on every corner", they should have said "mayo on every hot dog cart".

    That would have me wanting to close the borders, and I'm an open borders guy! ;)

    Parent

    Europeans (none / 0) (#15)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:16:32 PM EST
    use Mayonnaise with their French Fries.

    Parent
    Louisiana (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:15:20 PM EST
    loves sour cream and molasses.   On almost anything.   And, my god, on a biscuit, it is fabulous.

    Parent
    I think southerners (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:29:53 PM EST
    love sour cream. My husband's father loves sorghum on biscuits. My husband loves molasses. I'm not big on either but will put honey on a biscuit from time to time.

    Parent
    In South Texas, I remember (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:07:37 PM EST
    it was candied this and candied that..

    And chicken fried steak.

    Parent

    Chicken Fried Steak (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:58:29 PM EST
    in a diner on the side of an isolated stretch of highway in the middle of nowhere. With lots of gravy. Waitress calls you "Hon." Heaven on earth.

    Parent
    It is classic (none / 0) (#42)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:04:57 PM EST
    Reminds me of scene from the movie "Giant" with Rock Hudson, Elizabeth Taylor and James Dean.  There is a scene in a classic Texas diner where Rock Hudson stands up for a Latino and gets decked.

    Parent
    And then Anton Chigurgh (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 07:35:26 PM EST
    walked in and ordered a banana split. With sprinkles.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:00:04 PM EST
    Javier Bardem.

    It is God's country--because no one else would have it.

    Parent

    Ketchup on steak... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    is a greater culinary sin than ketchup on a hotdog!

    Hamburger, while beef, is not steak...so it gets an exemption.

    With ya on the mayo though...mayo should not be smeared on anything, it's strictly for tuna salad and the like, and even then only if used most sparingly.

    With you on ketchup, KDog (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:16:18 PM EST
    but cannot agree about mayonnaise. Mayo is also good for turkey sandwiches, as well as for tuna. But as for hot dogs, mustard and relish. Ketchup and relish is for hamburgers. Plus chopped or sliced raw onion on either. A decent steak needs nothing added but some pepper.

    Parent
    And salt... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:31:16 PM EST
    Gotta have my salt...I over indulge to the point that there is a glistening sheen on my steak.  And none of that sea salt sh&t either...strictly iodized table salt.

    As for sandwiches...if it's not mustard compatible like ham or salami, I go dry.  Turkey, Roast Beef...dry.  Italian cold cut heroes I go with a drizzle of oil and vinegar.

    Parent

    Is it true some hot dog stands (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:04:45 PM EST
    in NYC have papaya available as a condiment? A friend told me about it and said "don't knock it till you try it."

    Papaya being one of the healthiest things you can eat, it's kinda like having a fresh garden salad with your can of spam. Strikes a balance.

    Parent

    Can't say I've ever seen... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:33:38 PM EST
    any papaya condiments on a traditional NYC dirty water dog cart serving Sabretts...but there are loads of gourmet food trucks about with all kinds of hipsterized menus, so I would not be surprised if that's what the kids are doing these days.

    Parent
    hipstersized menus sounds about right.. (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:57:29 PM EST
    Here in Rochester we have Zweigles who, rumor has it, will make hotdogs out of anything that will hold still for five seconds.

    Of course, they still taste great when you're starving. Just try to keep to no more than two or three times a year..

    Parent

    And the GOP says liberals (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:27:56 PM EST
    are intolerant.  After a series of "steak-eating" posts, not one post from a vegan trying to make us feel guilty.

    Parent
    I worked in a slaughter house once (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:12:52 PM EST
    it Will make you think twice, or three times, about meat eating.

    That place was like one of Dante's circles of hell. I lasted a week. One of those things you have to make an effort to block out.

    Parent

    True, but on a philosophical (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:14:15 PM EST
    level all food is dead organic matter.  It is the circle of life.  We need to eat things that were once alive.  The difference between animal and plant life can be arbitrary.

    And, I never understood why eggs, butter and milk were off limits to some vegetarians.  We feed the chickens and cows, and they feed us.

    But I don't like killing anything.  We have mice in the house and I have been reluctant to put down traps because the result can be so grisly, but it needs to be done.

     

    Parent

    Yeah, sad but true (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:47:08 PM EST
    the red foxes around here are my buddies, but I have friend who wants to blow them all to hell because they my eat his ducks. As a matter of fact, I "intervened" once without his knowledge by standing behind him and waving my arms just when he was going to shoot one in his yard. It worked. Foxes see a human moving at all and they're gone like a will 'o the whisp..

    The eggs, butter, and milk thing has to do with objections to the "factory farm" treatment of the animals, and then there are the folks who think that if they can only find the perfect Ayurvedic-vegetarian-vegan diet, that they'll live forever..

    Parent

    I think this is why my family is such (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:30:05 PM EST
    Steak fanatics. Other than my children's generation we were all part of getting a steak from birth to plate. When you cared for the beef, and in the end saw one actually cut into steaks and roasts and become a hamburger, and you wrapped and taped each meal for the freezer, I became respectful.  When the beef was supposed to last until next year and I saw how fast the prime cuts go and each roast, I was much more respectful of what was on my plate and the life of the animal and all the work put into it.

    I can't imagine trying to do the death part of that process all day everyday. No thanks

    Parent

    What's a vegan... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:35:29 PM EST
    but walking, talking herbicide.

    Parent
    Excellent CNN artice on how police are trained (none / 0) (#8)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 12:57:20 PM EST
    to shoot. Some of this is common sense but I blame Hollywood for many of the misconceptions people have.

    Why officers don't shoot to wound...  

    Officers are trained to "shoot to stop," which often results in a homicide, Alexander said.... Even a skilled marksman would have difficulty hitting a suspect's arm or leg in a fast-moving situation. And a wounded suspect could still possibly shoot the officer or someone else.

    Why officers sometimes fire several shots..

    Most officers today carry semi-automatic pistols instead of revolvers....
    But now officers are trained to assess the threat level while firing, which means the officer may pull the trigger multiple times before the suspect has fallen, Alexander said.

    The Michael Brown shooting was an example of an officer needing to fire several shots.

    About tasers...

    Klinger also contends that Tasers should only be used in cases where a second officer can provide "lethal coverage" in case the Taser doesn't stop the suspect.

    The Walter Scott shooting was an example of improper use of a taser.

    CNN also did a segment on TV where they showed how little time officers sometime have to make important decisions.  

    The police are never wrong (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:38:09 PM EST
    The Michael Brown shooting was an example of an officer needing to fire several shots.

    That last one through the top of his head at 30 feet was definitely necessary.  The top of a Black man's head is a deadly weapon at extremely long range.

    The Walter Scott shooting was an example of improper use of a taser.

    But excellent marksmanship with the service weapon, considering the range and the victim running away at a pace that would have covered a hundred yards in half an hour.  That definitely makes up for the bad Taser deployment.

    When a cop shoots an unarmed Black man in the back it is always justified, if you consider of all the harm unarmed Black men have done to this country.

    Parent

    from what i read (1.00 / 2) (#68)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 07:24:06 PM EST
    brown commited a felony strong-arm robbery and when stopped by the police struggled through the window of the police car for control of the gun. then brown fled and was chased by the police. brown turned and charged the police and was shot several times in the front. the fatal shot occured at 8 to 10 feet. that's i read.

    Parent
    You should find better sources then (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:15:59 PM EST
    from what i read Brown commited a felony strong-arm robbery and when stopped by the police struggled through the window of the police car for control of the gun.  

    then brown fled and was chased by the police. brown turned and charged the police and was shot several times in the front. the fatal shot occured at 8 to 10 feet. that's i read.

    Incorrect.  Almost NOTHING of what you said turned out to be true, but that's was what the police apologists would like you to believe, and you have obliged.  

    Brown was never accused and certainly not tried for any criminal offense.  He had no criminal record and in the absence of a jury verdict he is presumed innocent.

    He was not "fleeing" when approached by police, he was walking down the street.

    The only person who said Brown "charged" was officer Wilson, all other witnesses said he had his hands up.

    The location of the expended shell casings would have shown EXACTLY where the shooter was standing, but the "investigation" did not included identifying that detail.  Locating shell casings is one of the most important aspects of a shooting investigation, but it was overlooked here.  Officer Wilson was allowed to keep his weapon, wash his hands, and wander freely around the shooting scene in case he needed to rearrange any evidence.  How many shooters are permitted to do that?

    It's clear from the absolute incompetence of the "investigation" that its purpose was to protect Wilson, not to find out what took place.  That being the case, you have no reason to believe any statement that comes from the Ferguson police.

    More recently Officer Wilson admitted that Brown had NOT attempted to grab his gun, that the holster it was in was designed to prevent anyone except the officer from removing it, and that when the gun was removed from the holster, Wilson pulled it out and pointed it at Brown.  

    Wilson fired ten shots.

    Parent

    a conspiracy? (3.00 / 2) (#75)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:31:14 PM EST
    that's was what the police apologists would like you to believe

    this has been investigated by the police, the FBI, and the obama justice department.

    you are playing amatuer detective and trying to use little pieces to create your own narative. the professionals, and experts, and the legal system - with all the facts - disagrees with your amatuer detective conclusions.

    Parent

    Read the DoJ report (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:39:21 PM EST
    and then come back and apologize for your post.

    Parent
    What do you disagree with? (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:19:24 PM EST
    The public outrage was based on the "hands up, don't shoot" narrative that fell apart when witnesses changed their testimony under oath.

    Parent
    Public outrage was based on more than that (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    The city of Ferguson, Missouri, on Wednesday unveiled an agreement with the U.S. Justice Department to address racially biased policing uncovered in the wake of the 2014 death of Michael Brown.

    The consent decree requires more training for police officers, policy changes to decrease use of force, and a more robust system for citizens to make complaints against officers. It also requires that the mostly-white police force do more to recruit minorities.

    The city would repeal laws like its "failure to comply" ordinance -- which the Justice Department found was overwhelmingly used against black residents -- and change its city code to make sure local laws are constitutional and fairly applied.

    NBC News

    Parent

    what i find (none / 0) (#118)
    by linea on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:35:53 AM EST
    most disapointing is that Peter G would 5-star this bundle of conspiracy theory and wildly incorrect "alternative facts" that you present.

    this, and most every other statement you make is factually incorrect:

    The only person who said Brown "charged" was officer Wilson, all other witnesses said he had his hands up
    .

    Parent
    That's funny. (none / 0) (#130)
    by Yman on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:31:58 AM EST
    this, and most every other statement you make is factually incorrect: ...

    brown commited a felony strong-arm robbery and when stopped by the police struggled through the window of the police car for control of the gun.

    I was thinking the same thing about your false claim that Brown was struggling to take the officer's gun.

    Parent

    excerpts from (none / 0) (#132)
    by linea on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:01:19 AM EST

    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT REGARDING THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH OF MICHAEL BROWN BY FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE OFFICER DARREN WILSON

    Wilson and other witnesses stated that Brown then reached into the SUV through the open driver's window and punched and grabbed Wilson. This is corroborated by bruising on Wilson's jaw and scratches on his neck, the presence of Brown's DNA on Wilson's collar, shirt, and pants, and Wilson's DNA on Brown's palm.

    Brown used his right hand to grab and attempt to control Wilson's gun.

    While credible witnesses gave varying accounts of exactly what Brown was doing with his hands as he moved toward Wilson - i.e., balling them, holding them out, or pulling up his pants up - and varying accounts of how he was moving - i.e., "charging," moving in "slow motion," or "running" - they all establish that Brown was moving toward Wilson when Wilson shot him. Although some witnesses state that Brown held his hands up at shoulder level with his palms facing outward for a brief moment, these same witnesses describe Brown then dropping his hands and "charging" at Wilson.

    As detailed throughout this report, several witnesses stated that Brown appeared to pose a physical threat to Wilson as he moved toward Wilson. According to these witnesses, who are corroborated by blood evidence in the roadway, as Brown continued to move toward Wilson, Wilson fired at Brown in what appeared to be self-defense and stopped firing once Brown fell to the ground.

    Multiple credible witnesses corroborate virtually every material aspect of Wilson's account and are consistent with the physical evidence.


    Parent

    You might want to learn ... (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Yman on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:53:42 AM EST
    ... how to use ellipses when you are quoting something selectively and out of order, otherwise when someone reads the actual memo and realizes what you're doing, they might get the idea that you're doing it intentionally to mislead.  Such as the fact that the memo notes that the only witness who claimed that Brown was attempting to grab the gun was Wilson himself, who later (in the civil suit) made the admission noted above.

    Parent
    Where do you get this... (none / 0) (#154)
    by McBain on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:33:25 AM EST
    More recently Officer Wilson admitted that Brown had NOT attempted to grab his gun

    This is from Wilson's grand jury testimony

    He grabs my gun, says, "You are too much of a p***y to shoot me." The gun goes down into my hip and at that point I thought I was getting shot. I can feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger and I distinctly remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg. I thought that was the next step.

    Do you have newer information?

    Parent

    "He was not "fleeing"..." (none / 0) (#165)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 12:26:40 PM EST
    Repack: "He was not "fleeing" when approached by police, he was walking down the street."

    Strawman. No one said he was fleeing when approached by police.

    Repack: "The only person who said Brown "charged" was officer Wilson"

    Not true.

    Witness 10:

    Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that's when Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with this driveway.

    Witness 48:

    Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't so he started shooting him.

    Witness:

    I thought he was trying to charge him at first because the only thing I kept saying was is he crazy? Why don't he just stop instead of running because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first thing I would think is to drop down on the ground and not try to look like I'm going to attack 'em, but that was my opinion.

    Repack: "The location of the expended shell casings would have shown EXACTLY where the shooter was standing, but the "investigation" did not included identifying that detail."

    In addition to the autopsy information, the grand jury was also presented with ballistics information.  The crime scene detective presented the location of shell casings and other evidence recovered after the shooting.  The locations of the recovered evidence was also marked, as depicted in the adjacent photograph.

    Of particular interest for evaluating Wilson's testimony is the location of the 12 shell casings recovered.  Two of them were recovered close to Wilson's car, conforming to his testimony about his firing two shots there (vol. V, 226:4).  After that, the remaining 10 casings were recovered adjacent to (or behind) the path that Wilson said Brown took when charging toward him.  This was consistent with Wilson firing a series of shots as Brown rushed toward him, all the while backpedaling to try and increase the distance.

    Repack: "More recently Officer Wilson admitted that Brown had NOT attempted to grab his gun"

    Not true.

    Wilson was asked about a specific point in the tussle, and Wilson agreed that (at that point in the tussle) Brown did not attempt to grab his gun.

    Wilson was not asked about a later point in the tussle, which Wilson described this way:

    I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip. [...]

    I can feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger and I distinctly remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg ... when I slid, I let him use his momentum to push it down and it was kind of pointed to where the seat buckle would attach on the floorboard on the side of my car ... When I did get it up to this point, he is still holding onto it and i pulled the trigger and nothing happens, it just clicked. I pull it again, it just clicked again. At this point I'm like why isn't this working, this guy is going to kill me ... I pulled it a third time, it goes off



    Parent
    I think a lot of these trainers (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 01:46:30 PM EST
    like the one's in the military, have a very paltry, primitive understanding of human psychology.

    They're good at teaching people to instill fear and obedience (sometimes) in the name of "controlling the situation", but incredibly weak on appealing to, and bringing out the best in people. Which explains why so many bad situations escalate into worse situations after the police arrive.

    They don't seem to understand, or don't want to address, the intoxicating effect having power over another human being has for certain personality types, and they don't seem to want to address the ugly fact of human blood-lust, that history has shown over and over, can rear it's ugly head amongst the most "well trained" groups of individuals.

    From what I've seen, they rely much too much on mechanistic behavioral models based on positive and negative reinforcement, more suitable for training animals, that fail to take into account the complex and malleable beings that we are.

    Goethe nailed it 200 years ago: "treat a man as he is, and he'll remain how he is. Treat him as if he were what he ought to be and could be, and he will become what he ought to be and could be."

    Parent

    Cops aren't trained to kill like soldiers (none / 0) (#31)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:21:47 PM EST
    They're trained to stop threats.  In a perfect world, they would be expert marksmen and Harvard debaters with PHDs in psychology. It's not a perfect world, so it's best to not put yourself in a situation where you look like a threat.

    Parent
    It doesn't have to "perfect" (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 02:29:13 PM EST
    just better.

    And why the hell not?

    We're all works in progress.

    Parent

    Amen (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:00:26 PM EST
    The police have the most power of anyone.  An awesome power to arrest you or kill you.

    Better get trained up.

    Parent

    And offering a little constructive (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:07:23 PM EST
    criticism, or even expressing outrage over unnecessary acts of violence, doesn't automatically make one a "cop-hater",  as some would have it.

    Parent
    Good point (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:03:59 PM EST
    It's not a perfect world, so it's best to not put yourself in a situation where you look like a threat.

    How, exactly, could an unarmed Black man who is running away, look like less of a threat?

    You are suggesting that "looking like a threat" to a paranoid police officer is a death penalty offense without a trial.  I submit that everyone looks like a threat to someone who has taken a class in being paranoid.  

    Most of the harm inflicted on this country has been done by rich people.  To me, a guy in a three-piece suit looks a lot more like a threat than a Black man with sagging jeans.  Do I get to shoot a few of them for screwing with my Wells Fargo account?

    Police in other countries don't kill unarmed people by the hundreds every year.  What is the difference here?

    Parent

    It's best not to put yourself... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:06:56 PM EST
    in a situation to be harmed by societal systems...close that Wells Fargo account Brother.

    Parent
    Preaching to the choir (none / 0) (#51)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:54:35 PM EST
    close that Wells Fargo account Brother.

    Done.  I overdrew my account and ignored the mail that came about it.  After a while they must have figured out that I am no longer a customer.

    Parent

    I knew you were smart Repack! ;) n/t (none / 0) (#125)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 07:40:23 AM EST
    Objection to the word "several" (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 07:24:19 PM EST
    The Michael Brown shooting was an example of an officer needing to fire several shots.

    Ten is "several?"  Four or five should be enough to slow down a charging Black man.  Of course, in training, police are told that an unarmed Black man is more dangerous when he is wounded, and that they don't feel pain like normal people do.

    More recently Officer Wilson admitted that Brown had not attempted to grab his weapon:

    Q: Michael Brown never tried to remove your gun from your holster.

    A: Admitted.

    Q: The holster you carry is designed to prevent someone from easily pulling your weapon from the holster.

    A: Admitted.

    Q: You eventually decided to draw your gun from the holster and point it at Michael Brown.

    A: Admitted.

    ...

    Q: You have used the word n----r to refer to an African American on at least one occasion.

    A: Admitted.


    Parent

    Typical misdirection (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:25:55 AM EST
    Q: Michael Brown never tried to remove your gun from your holster.

    A: Admitted.

    Wilson never said he did.

    Here is the Grand Jury testimony.

    Parent

    Do you have a source (none / 0) (#162)
    by NYShooter on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    for this?
    -------------------------------------
    "Of course, in training, police are told that an unarmed Black man is more dangerous when he is wounded, and that they don't feel pain like normal people do."

    Parent
    Speaking about the Mike Brown case (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:24:51 PM EST
    Here's a good argument that the recent documentary used heavily edited video to mislead the viewer into thinking Brown didn't rob the store.   I believe Jim pointed brought this up in a previous thread.

    As you can tell by some of the comments in this thread, people are still holding on to the coverup conspiracy.

    Parent

    and his accomplice (none / 0) (#112)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:42:48 PM EST
    admitted to the police and fbi that they robbed the store (per his lawyer).

    Parent
    Nooooo ketchup on steak (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:41:13 PM EST
    That's how you go to hell.

    Florida to Strengthen Stand Your Ground (none / 0) (#48)
    by RickyJim on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 03:42:24 PM EST
    The Florida law has been to allow a defendant to ask for a preliminary hearing before a judge where he could get immunity from prosecution and civil liability if the judge decides, using the preponderance of evidence standard, that the defendant has a valid self defense case.  Recently, the movie theater popcorn shooter lost such a hearing and now must face trial.  The proposed change in the law, opposed by prosecutors in Florida, is to change that standard to the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant doesn't have a valid self defense case.  So if the defendant loses the hearing, there will be second trial, with the same standard of proof, before a jury.  Link

    Trump voting friend who still lies to me (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:26:01 PM EST
    About who he voted for is mad as hell at???? Mostly Paul Ryan.

    He really thought Trump would fix healthcare. He has refused to purchase "Obamacare" even though he can afford it. He paid the penalty. He's middle age though and afraid and Trump was supposed to give him great insurance he was going to pay a couple 100 a month for.

    But for now this is all on Paul Ryan. I hope this feels like a marathon Ryan. Nobody is happy...nobody. You will lie about this one in your old age too no doubt.

    It's funny how ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:59:56 PM EST
    ... they're trying to scapegoat Ryan.  The fact that Trump is responsible for their high expectations and this POS plan didn't jibe.  They'd have to admit the guy they put in office had no clue and yet, was able to dupe them.

    Parent
    He is a semi retired attorney (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:53:00 PM EST
    Who owns a dive shop in the Bahamas. He can afford to pay, but oddly became insane about Obamacare. He claims to be a Libertarian (I sure don't understand the political philosophy factions under that tent). I always admired him though because he would represent anyone brought up on the scummiest charge in the little town we lived in. Over Friday night beers he would explain this strange ethos most attorneys live by in some form. I thought it was fascinating, like military service, focus on the far greater good, putting yourself out there everyday.

    We went to high school together. There was a very small group of kids who took the "advanced" courses, all boys I was the only girl, but I had a great time. We had the same math instructor for 3 yrs. He did everything he could to attempt to recruit more girls into the advanced math courses, but was not successful in the early 80's. I was spoiled and coddled by our math instructor for being his only girl. It was like being in a really dysfunctional family with these 5 brothers. That's how I know he's lying to me about who he voted for. I'm his sister. I know Mark's tells when he's lying.

    We grew up so white. I think my biggest fear is facing that 2 of my brothers are horribly racist and that this is the hinge for their Trump vote and Trump support, and Mark's reason for his Obamacare insane hatred. No black man is going to outline his healthcare, only a white man can fix the evil the black man attempted to visit upon him.

    Parent

    i put mayo (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 05:31:44 PM EST
    on everything.  both pieces of bread.  sometimes i make my own.  i have only recently discovered ketchup.  not historically a fan but its now on the list.

    True southerner (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 07:27:45 PM EST
    through and through.

    Parent
    So do I, and I am a Northerner (none / 0) (#95)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:44:36 PM EST
    through and through -- but my mother was from the West and raised me that way, so maybe they love mayo there?

    My favorite sandwich, as taught to me by my mother: sliced black olives, mixed in mayo (lots of mayo), slathered on white bread.  It's okay on good white bread but really best on awful Wonder bread.

    My husband is almost a Southerner -- southernmost Indiana -- and cannot stand mayo.  He cannot even stand to see me make that sandwich.

    Parent

    Someday someone around here (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:07:34 PM EST
    Must teach me cucumber sandwiches. Read about them my whole childhood, but exactly how is the proper cucumber sandwich prepared? What's really in them? They sound fabulous in literature, and everyone in the story is so grateful, but I tried to put one together once and nothing exciting came of it. It really has bacon on it ...right?

    I can't believe they eat pimento spread sandwiches here, brazen tawdry savages! I have seen a line form in front of a pile of pimento spread sandwiches in Southern AL.

    Parent

    Well, there's (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:16:48 AM EST
    two kinds of cucumber sandwiches. One kind is the one where you have a sandwich with sliced cucumbers and the other is where you make a spread out of the cucumbers that is called Benedictine. The secret is to let the cucumbers drain.

    When I was working at a gym a number of years ago one of the ladies there told me about cucumbers and sour cream. I had never heard of that being from the south where we pour vinegar over the cucumbers which I loathe. So went on an internet search and found recipes for this and oh, is it wonderful and it's easy to make to boot.

    Parent

    If you are talking about the classic english (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by vml68 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    tea-time cucumber sandwiches, then all you need is some very good soft white bread (crusts cut off), a generous smear of unsalted butter, cucumbers thinly sliced into rounds (salted and drained and sprinkled with a little bit of pepper) and voila!

    I like to add a little fresh dill or watercress to mine.

    Parent

    Okay, makes a little more sense (none / 0) (#143)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:42:58 AM EST
    We love cucumber kimchi. It's something I have worked hard to get right because everyone loves it. We still end up with an Americanized version because we start wondering what a little red onion would taste like in it or tiny chopped red bell pepper.

    But salt sweating the cucumbers is the most important step. I'll try it today.

    Parent

    Don't know what the weather is like where (none / 0) (#145)
    by vml68 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:00:30 AM EST
    you are but for some reason (for me) the cucumber sandwiches taste a lot better on a warm/hot sunny day.

    It is in the low 50s here in my neck of the woods. More of a hearty chili/soup kind of day.

    Parent

    That is so funny, Towanda (none / 0) (#103)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:15:30 PM EST
    My wife's mother's family is also from southern-most Indiana. Evans Landing, to be precise. Across and slightly up-river from Louisville. And they were definitely southerners, culturally, like her father's Kentucky people. Not like Alabama or anything, but southerners.

    Parent
    My trek to a family reunion (none / 0) (#119)
    by Towanda on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:38:32 AM EST
    for Spouse Towanda (from south of Vincennes, nearer to Evansville -- so about as far south as Evans Landing) was a revelation.  I had been to Indianapolis . . . but as soon as we got south of that, there were Confederate flags everywhere.

    And much as I enjoy researching my French Canadian origins, I have resisted a trek to the family gatherings for the famed fort's rendezvous, complete with historical re-enactments.  My spouse returned from one to try to beguile me to make the trek by reporting that the musicians who opened the event played tunes from one of my favorite musicals.  But the band was promoted as providing historically correct selections -- and play tunes from Les Miserables.  

    Then he recalled visits with me to DC, where I had to restrain myself when tour guides gave incredibly ahistorical misinformation . . . until one in our nation's Capitol finally went too far, and I corrected him.

    Spouse Towanda has not again attempted to get me to go to his homeland of Confederate flags and "alternative facts."

    Parent

    My wife's Indiana people were Catholic (none / 0) (#139)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:24:35 AM EST
    (like all the rest of her family), and so were targets or victims of the Klan in the 20's (when the KKK rode high in Indiana). They had immigrated to Indianae from Alsace in the 1880s or '90s. For those two reasons, I suppose, along with being good people and highly intelligent, they were never steeped in faux-Confederate "nostalgia."  

    Parent
    That is interesting (none / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:19:21 AM EST
    as I have never heard of an olive sandwich. My dad grew up mostly in CA and he loved olives and avocados. Must be some western influence there. My dad also loved to cut an avocado in half, seed it and fill the hole where the seed was with ketchup. I have never heard of anyone else doing this.

    Parent
    Avacado and ketchup (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:28:47 AM EST
    NEVER heard of that before today.

    Parent
    And you probably (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:14:12 AM EST
    never will again. I certainly have never heard of it since. My first taste of avocado as a child was this way. I would not eat avocados again for a long time as I was sure I detested them.

    Parent
    "true" southerner (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:13:00 AM EST
    woud be Miracle Whip.

    admit it.

    Parent

    and Cool Whip (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:15:06 AM EST
    I just threw up a little.

    in my mouth.

    Parent

    ;-D

    Parent
    Miracle Whip (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:19:12 AM EST
    well, yeah, going by my husband's family that would be true. Oh, yes, Cool Whip. They smother pies with Cool whip like having a little pie with their cool whip. At holidays I refused to buy Cool Whip and made them use real whipped cream even if it was spray out of a can. Honestly I think I wasn't raised in a typical "southern" family but my husband was. I never ate greens and black eyed peas on New Year's until I married him.

    Parent
    some time after i choose to live here (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:31:45 AM EST
    i had an enforced seminar of family cooks on the subject of whipped cream.

    i made some - roughly 5-4 minutes - WHAT IS THE FU@KING PROBLEM HERE???

    WHY ARE YOU FEEDING YOUR FAMILIES THIS PILE OF FREAKING CHEMICALS AND CORN OIL....HUM..???

    PLUS IT TASTES LIKE PLACTIC.

    Im happy to say it had some, limited, impact.

    Parent

    I made the statement (none / 0) (#156)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    to my brother in law have you actually read the ingredients in Cool Whip? The answer was it doesn't matter because it tastes good.

    Oh, no, you are wrong on the Miracle Whip. The real thing is Duke's Mayo which I refuse to buy after using to make my corn dip and it left a layer of oil on top of the dip. Yes, hubby's family is all about sandwiches dripping with Duke's mayo. I don't touch it.

    Parent

    A friend from Georgia (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 02:42:12 PM EST
    turned me on to fried green tomato sandwiches. Which are trickier to make just right than you'd think. If made right though, they're really really good.

    Parent
    I go through quite a bit of mayo, too. (none / 0) (#131)
    by vml68 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:47:41 AM EST
    I even put it on my hot dog! My apologies, if I have offended anyone's tender sensibilities :-)!

    Not a fan of ketchup though I always keep a bottle in the fridge and the almost unused bottle gets thrown out every couple of years.

    Parent

    i remember the first time (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:04:48 AM EST
    i got mayo with fries in Amsterdam in about 1971.  it was a revelatory experience as profound as the first time i bought and smoked hash in a bar.  with the lights on.

    Parent
    new travel ban blocked (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:00:50 PM EST
    by a federal judge.

    DOH

    Hooray for Judge Watson: (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:41:25 PM EST
    "The illogic of the Government's contentions is palpable. The notion that one can demonstrate animus toward any group of people only by targeting all of them at once is fundamentally flawed."

    LINK. The next Trump travel ban will probably include the Hawaiian Islands.

    Parent

    And in non-condiment news, ... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 06:29:08 PM EST
    ... a thousand cheers to Texas State Rep. Jessica Farrar (D-Houston), who effectively trolled her Republican male colleagues in Austin by introducing House Bill 4260, which criminalizes male masturbation by allowing only "occasional masturbatory emissions inside health care and medical facilities," and imposing a $100 fine for each emission made outside of a vagina or medical facility. Such an emission, according to the measure, would be considered "an act against an unborn child, and failing to preserve the sanctity of life." Per the Houston Chronicle:

    "Rep. Farrar's bill also seeks to provide men with a safe and healthy environment during vasectomies, Viagra uses and colonoscopies by creating 'A Man's Right to Know' booklet that should exactly follow the rules and procedures of the informational booklet 'A Woman's Right To Know,' required to be given of women terminating pregnancies.

    "During the consultation, the physician would verbally review the booklet with men and would be required to 'administer a medically-unnecessary digital rectal exam and magnetic resonance imagining of the rectum,' according to the bill. Farrar said she included this part of the bill to mimic the trans-vaginal ultrasound woman have when they are seeking an abortion."

    Meanwhile, across the Red River in Oklahoma -- yuck! Again, per the Houston Chronicle:

    "The Oklahoma Senate voted Wednesday to impose sanctions on a state senator who police say was found with a teenage boy in a motel room.
    Police officials in the Oklahoma City suburb of Moore are still investigating the circumstances surrounding the incident last week involving Sen. Ralph Shortey and a teenager. No charges have been filed."

    Some of the best stories can be found in your own state's capitol building.

    Seeking new phone advice (non-ketchup-related) (none / 0) (#72)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:06:35 PM EST
    My trusty iPhone 4 is on its last legs, if not leg. Should I get an iPhone 6s, an iPhone SE, or an iPhone 7, or something else entirely? I do not use my phone as a music device or to watch videos.  Mostly a mobile phone, but also for GPS in car, weather forecasts, news headlines/updates, radio when traveling, occasional camera (rarely take video), Google for quick reference searches, email when out of the office or on the road. Welcome suggestions, with rationale.

    GPS and reading (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:14:54 PM EST
    bigger is better.  iphone 7 plus.  that's what i have.

    Parent
    How big a phone do you want? (none / 0) (#76)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:33:44 PM EST
    The iPhone SE is the guts of a 6 in the body of a 5S. So, the smallest iPhone available. Pick that one if you don't want a huge phone.

    If it is a choice between the iPhone 6 or 7, I would say choose the 7. That gives you all the latest bells and whistles. Faster speed, better camera, etc. you will probably get more years out of the 7. Also, the 6 has had some problems.

    If you choose a 6 or 7 you have to decide if you want the big one or the really big one which is the Plus. Do you like to carry the phone in your pocket? Do not choose the Plus.

    Parent

    im sure (none / 0) (#77)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:39:31 PM EST
    the 7 plus can be carried in a back pocket. it's not an ipad mini.

    Parent
    A quick trip to an Apple Store or (none / 0) (#78)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:44:56 PM EST
    his cell provider's store will let Peter compare and contrast phone sizes and decide which works Best for him.

    Not everyone who carries a phone in a pocket uses the back pocket. Some use a front pants pocket. Some use a jacket pocket. Size is a matter of personal preference when it comes to phones.

    Parent

    I have an appointment at the Apple Store (none / 0) (#80)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 08:54:08 PM EST
    tomorrow morning. Looking for advice on what to look for, what to ask, what not to overlook. The appointment reminder told me to "back up my data" from my old phone before coming in to the store. Frankly, I don't even know what that means, much less how to do it. Are they saying that if I get a new phone they will no longer transfer my contacts, old email, pictures, etc. to the new phone? Why would that be?

    Parent
    If you are used to typing on a smaller phone or (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Green26 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:58:50 PM EST
    Blackberry, don't get the bigger iPhone. Touchscreen is hard enough to adapt to, but the larger keyboard is not good to use. I made the mistake of getting the bigger iPhone in late 2015, after being a Blackberry guy. I can type much better on my wife's smaller iPhone. I'm going back to the smaller phone soon.

    Parent
    You can back up your phone (none / 0) (#82)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:02:02 PM EST
    to either your iTunes account or to the Apple cloud. Is your laptop a Mac? Do you have an iTunes account? If so, backing up is very easy.

    Parent
    No, no, and no (none / 0) (#85)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:41:47 PM EST
    So there you are.

    Parent
    Okay. Talk to the Apple people (none / 0) (#86)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:45:37 PM EST
    about this tomorrow. Seriuosly, learn how to backup your phone. It is a total pain in the a$$, and might make you cry, to lose all the info on your phone.

    Parent
    The way you describe it, it sounds like the data (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:54:55 PM EST
    would have to be backed-up to "the cloud," that is, to a server owned and controlled by the Apple Corporation and not by me. The Supreme Court says I have no "legitimate expectation of privacy" against government search and seizure of data I voluntarily place in the hands of a third party. I could never do that. If by "back up" you mean I can copy the data to my (Lenovo/Windows) laptop, or to an external hard drive or thumb drive, then fine. So to return to my question, how? Where is the software that does that, what is it called, and how is it accessed and operated?


    Parent
    You need to download and install (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:46:49 PM EST
    ITunes on your pc/mac. You then use the software for a local backup.

    Parent
    Ok, so now I'm confused again (none / 0) (#101)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:01:21 PM EST
    "local backup" sound like the data is copied to and saved on my own computer or storage device. Casey, on the other hand, seems to say that the data has to be copied to an "iTunes account," which is in the cloud (i.e., not on my computer but in the custody of Apple). Perhaps someone can state this clearly back to me in plain(ish) English, with no jargon or assumptions of prior knowledge.

    Parent
    I avoid the cloud for the very (none / 0) (#88)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:02:21 PM EST
    reason you cited. I do backup to an iTunes account which is not held in the Cloud.

    I know that you do not need an Apple computer to have an iTunes account, but I know next to nothing about Windows. So, talk to the Apple people tomorrow.

    Parent

    Well, I have the iTunes program installed (none / 0) (#92)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:31:07 PM EST
    Just didn't know what you meant by an "iTunes account." An "account," as opposed to the software program itself (which is a music player and copier, if I am not mistaken), sounds like something external to my computer, registered with Apple Corp., to be used for buying copies of songs, etc., which I have not cared to do.

    Parent
    Yes, an iTunes account is (none / 0) (#94)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM EST
    opened in the iTunes app and used to buy and store music and apps and backups of Apple devices. I backup my iPhone and iPad to iTunes.

    It is external to your laptop. So, it sounds like not a good option for you. I don't know if there is a way to backup directly to your computer hard drive or an external hard drive. Hopefully, the people at the Apple Store will know.

    Parent

    Perhaps my confusion is that you were (none / 0) (#106)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:25:26 PM EST
    saying (that is, not saying but presuming I understood) that I must start by having iTunes (the app, that is) installed on the iPhone in question. That, I do not, although presumably could. The iTunes app/program is presently installed on my Windows (Lenovo ThinkPad) laptop only.

    Parent
    My error. Although I had not used iTunes before (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM EST
    it is pre-installed on all iPhones. Using iTunes on laptop now to backup the phone to the hard-drive of my laptop. Essentially an automated process. All is well. Thanks again for everyone's advice.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#111)
    by linea on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:37:13 PM EST
    backed-up to "the cloud,"

    make your life easier.

    set your iphone to backup to iCloud tonight. when you buy the 7 they will download everything and your new phone will be set up exactly the same. all the apps that you installed on your old phone will be on the new phone, all your text messages will be on the new phone, all your contacts, all your alarm settings, everything will look exactly the same on the new 7 as you had on your faniliar old phone.

    Parent

    Yes, definitely do a backup to your computer first (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 06:23:17 AM EST
    And then to the cloud too f you use the cloud.That way if you feel like you want help restoring, the folks at the store can then help you restore from the cloud. Or if not you can wait till you get home and restore from the computer.

    Parent
    You are ignoring what I said about why (none / 0) (#147)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:07:26 AM EST
    I don't use "the cloud," linea.

    Parent
    If your computer is an apple device (none / 0) (#158)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 11:19:58 AM EST
    you can back up addresses, calendar items, music, mail, etc to your computer instead of the cloud, Basically everything that has a corresponding Apple app on the computer can be synced with the computer instead of using the cloud. Can't speak for how it works with non-apple computers.

    Parent
    As I reported at #146 (none / 0) (#168)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:26:18 PM EST
    iTunes on my Windows 7, Lenovo ThinkPad worked like a charm to back up my iPhone 4 before my sojourn to the Apple Store.  Both Jared at the Genius Bar and Adam the sales clerk agreed that a new SE was the way to go for me, and suggested I invest the extra $50 in 64GB of storage rather than the off-the-rack 16GB. Once I comparison shop a bit at the Verizon Store, that's what I'll do, within the coming week. Unless anyone thinks I should buy the phone elsewhere, now that I know what I want.

    Parent
    Glad the backup worked. (none / 0) (#174)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:46:53 PM EST
    And happy to hear you have chosen a phone size. My current phone is a 5s, which is the same size as the SE. I love the size. It fits perfectly in my front pants pocket, which is where I usually carry it.

    I was happy to read this morning that Apple will be releasing an updated SE sometime this spring.Hoping that update includes the waterproofing.  I would say wait for the update, but your earlier post sounded like your current iPhone was at death"s door.

    I am quite paranoid about anyone gaining access to my phone, so I never use my fingerprint as a way to unlock the phone. I always use an 8 digit numerical password. Of course, you have to be able to remember that password. :-)

    Parent

    In my experience, the Apple people (none / 0) (#83)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 09:08:33 PM EST
    always tell you to backup your device before you bring it to them. That way, if something goes wrong your info is not lost.

    Based on your description of how you use your phone, I would recommend that you choose the iPhone 7 and decide on what size of iPhone 7 when you get to the Apple Store.

    Also, it really is a good idea to regularly backup your phone just like you do your computer. The Apple people can show you how.

    Based on my experience with Apple people, they will be able to transfer everything to your new phone for you.

    Parent

    Good advice casey, and (none / 0) (#117)
    by fishcamp on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 12:53:58 AM EST
    the iPhone 7 is more waterproof than the others mentioned.  Not sure why Apple is stalling on the waterproof situation.  "They" are saying the new iPhone 8 will be even more waterproof.  This will be a big consideration Peter, if you ever come fishing with me.

    Parent
    Luckily, the last time it got dunked, a day of drying out cured it. First time ever.

    Parent
    Thank you for asking this (none / 0) (#98)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:53:00 PM EST
    as I also must upgrade soon.  My children mock my iPhone 4.  Hey, I still miss my flip phone. . . .

    But I have mastered iTunes -- although I have not bought a thing from it.  I used it to organize my own downloaded CD's and create my own playlists, on my PC, then easily copied to my iPhone and mini iPad.  

    And, after admiring another device that my children use, I got a Sony cube (about $50 on Amazon; of course, my son the musician with the far more particular ear has a Bose version) for great sound from my iPhone, and I recommend it.

    Parent

    Mockery has no effect on me (none / 0) (#100)
    by Peter G on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 10:57:42 PM EST
    but the phone's various functions gradually failing, along with some of its mechanical aspects, makes it time after many years. All in all, I am leaning to the iPhone SE.

    Parent
    Try this link to Apple support. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:52:33 PM EST
      It explains cloud vs iTunes backup. It says that an iTunes backup is stored on your computer.  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204136

    Parent
    Peter, is the SE a 5 model, or a 6? (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 06:18:24 AM EST
    I really would go to at least a 6 so you can make sure you are in a generation that can withstand a few years of OS and app updates. I'd go right to a 7 since you are doing a major upgrade. Camera is a lot better, and other improvements. With the 4, you have not seen the multi-layer touch stuff yet - very convenient once you get used to it. I confess I don't take as much advantage of it as I should.

    Hope that helps!  See below too, I responded there.


    Parent

    The iPhone SE has the guts of an iPhone 6 (none / 0) (#134)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:02:31 AM EST
    in the case of an iPhone 5, that is, physically smaller, more like the 4 in its dimensions. From what I have read, it has all the electronics of the 6 other than the multi-layer touch aspect, the improved forward-facing camera (although it does have the improved back-side camera), and a (supposedly) slower fingerprint recognition for unlocking. Sounds best for me. I will hold them all in my hands, but as of now, I think the 7 will be too large for how I carry it. (I don't generally wear a sport-coat or suit-jacket, and I don't carry a purse.)

    Parent
    I see you don't get your styling tips (none / 0) (#138)
    by vml68 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:15:11 AM EST
    from GQ, Peter :-).

    I don't carry a purse.


    Parent
    I forgot they did that model (none / 0) (#159)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 11:21:26 AM EST
    Yes, that sounds like just what you would want.

    Parent
    Report back after your test drive! (none / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 11:23:14 AM EST
    Will be interested to hear your choice.

    Parent
    See my comment (none / 0) (#171)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:32:16 PM EST
    at #168.

    Parent
    Ruffian is IMO an iPhone opinion to get (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 at 11:54:03 PM EST
    We are Samsung. I let my husband handle that, but Ruff understands programming and is a dedicated Apple user. I will let her know you are shopping. She's been having some doggy issues lately, and Trump has everyone down :(

    Parent
    I loved the size of the iPhone5 (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 06:26:01 AM EST
    It seemed perfect to me. Easy to hold, not slippery. Can't recall if I had a 4. I think I went from a 3 to a 5.  I did get the 6 and then the 7 (smaller models, not +) and am used to that size now. Big enough to see clearly but not too huge. I don't like the + size but I have friends who love it, so it just depends on you. Nice to have options!

    Parent
    I would go right to the iPhone7 (none / 0) (#120)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 06:12:35 AM EST
    Skip the interim models. The camera is much better, plus the processor/OS response speed gets better every iteration. You will then have something you can keep as long as you did your trusty iP4.

    Personally the Plus size is too big for me. I like to keep the phone in my pocket comfortably. I don't watch much video either, so I don't feel like I need the bigger screen.

    I can't speak for the android models, but if you have had an iphone all this time I doubt you would want to switch to android. I don't know anyone personally who did that and did not end up unhappy and switching back. Stick with what you know if you are not an experimenter.

    My 2 cents!

    I am with you on the condiments.

    Parent

    American "Healthcare" Act (none / 0) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 08:22:35 AM EST
    since footage of all the happy white people last night in ppj's neighborhood was inescapeable i decided to translate some of the sighn i saw them waving around:

    Promises "Made"
    Promises "Kept"

    "Drain" the Swamp

    Trump "Pence"

    Buy "American" Hire "American"

    and of course Make America "Great" Again

    That "campaign rally" (none / 0) (#141)
    by KeysDan on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    in Nashville was therapy for Trump and an embarrassment for America. At least, for thinking Americans.

     Surely the DOJ lawyers were apoplectic when Trump reported the "bad news" coming from Judge Watson in Hawaii and claimed that Muslim Ban 2.0 was just Muslim Ban 1.0, "watered down."  And, that he, Trump, would like to go back to Muslim Ban 1.0. Another one was a threat to the Appellate Court Ninth Circuit of being broken up, as, he claimed, "everyone is calling for."  

    The Trump crowd could not get enough of him. The young men in Trump's backdrop were scarily energized.  They did not have brown shirts, but all wore dress shirts of other colors and sported neckties, many of them red. Long red ties.

     One guy was truly beside himself enraptured and ecstatic. And, unsettling. And,creepy.  Of course, no Trump rally would be a Trump rally without Trump provoking and reveling in Hillary chants of "Lock Her Up", "Lock Her Up."  Any hope for Trump to be presidential was in vain; we can only look to an occasional semblance of sanity.

     As dreadful as these Trump rallies are, they may be worth abiding if they keep Trump at some base level of hinged.  What in the world has this country done to itself?

    Parent

    correction (none / 0) (#148)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:08:33 AM EST
    since i am beginning to understand that "drain the swamp" did not mean getting rid of entrenched money interests but instead getting rid of armys of civil servants and the staffs who actually know how to make a government work - it shoud probably be:

    Drain the "Swamp"

    Parent

    I re-watched that sad/funny interview (none / 0) (#177)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 02:28:24 PM EST
    with the coked-out, grandiose Charlie Sheen from a few years ago, and was struck by how many people in the comments section were practically gushing with admirmation at Charlie for being so "un-PC" and "telling it like it is"..

    Almost to the point where I was thinking  that if Charlie had launched a campaign and tweaked his schtick with a little Jesus and Free Markets and anti-brown people bs, he might've given Trump a run for his money..

    With a lot of today's electorate, Make America Great Again might not stand a chance against a f*ckin' Rockstar From Mars who will melt other country's faces off. And I'm only half-kidding.


    Parent

    In (none / 0) (#142)
    by FlJoe on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 09:40:28 AM EST
    other ketchup related news
    McDonald's corporate Twitter account sent a rather negative message to noted fast food lover President Donald Trump Thursday morning, calling him a "disgusting excuse for a President" and insulting his hands.
    The main suspects in this obviously "fake" tweet are Ronald McDonald, The Hamburgler and Roger Stone(my theory they are all the same person). The amount of Russian involvement is unclear at this time.

    My money's on Grimace (none / 0) (#157)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 10:51:13 AM EST
    No easy answers for Dems (none / 0) (#167)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Considering views from the past that continue to be perpetuated in spite of much evidence to the contrary.

    Vox Link

    In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal -- and that means focusing on more than economics.

    and on a related note:

    "I don't think paying all college athletes is great, not every college is loaded and most 19-year-olds [are] gonna spend it--and let's be honest, they're gonna spend it on weed and kicks," Cowherd said. "And spare me the 'they're being extorted' thing.

    "Listen, 90 percent of these college guys are gonna spend it on tats, weed, kicks, Xboxes, beer and swag. They are, get over it!"

    Vice Sports

    As to the Vox link, well (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:38:03 PM EST
    I think the Democratic Party has a choice to make. Does it cast its lot with the diminishing demographic of angry hateful white people or opt to claim the future, and the high ground, by continuing Hillary Clinton's efforts to build a more inclusive Party that recognizes the value of the diversity of our county?

    Listening to the people who attend and cheer at Trump's appearances it is clear they are not motivated by economic angst. And I do wish the press and the Democratic Party would open it eyes, wake up and smell the coffee, see the handwriting on the wall, etc.

    Parent

    Why not do both? (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 02:38:53 PM EST
    Embrace left wing economic populism via universal healthcare and basic universal income, and embrace a culturally diverse society with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all regardless of race, country of origin, gender, or sexual orientation.

    If the Dems did that, at least we'd find out how much of the alt-right phenomenon is legit economic angst coupled with kick the dog, or if it is just straight-up xenophobic racist sexist intolerance of anybody who ain't a white Christian man from rural/suburban America.

    Parent

    Economic populism <> Taxes (none / 0) (#183)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:17:53 PM EST
    Taxes gonna be a problem.  Also ignores the point of the article, recent experience shows otherwise, e.g. the Labour Party in Britain.

    Parent
    Point taken... (none / 0) (#193)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:49:27 PM EST
    though the UK is much more "left" than us, before and after Thatcher...and the UK has a less culturally diverse history than the US.  Comparable perhaps, but not the same.  And I'm not sure if the studies tell the whole story of Britain's political situation...nor ours.  So many factors, so many voters with different motivations that cannot be easily graphed.

    Good food for thought though...made me check my preconceived notions, which is always good.

    Parent

    Many many people still don't (none / 0) (#195)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    grasp the very simple, elementary fact that so many good things that they take completely for granted have to be paid for somehow..

    It takes a concerted effort, ultimately traceable to a relative handful of billionaire "libertarian" types (with their hordes of sycophants) to keep so much of the populace at that level of cluelessness.

    The 800 lb gorilla here is Citizen's United.

    Parent

    Sorry Kdog (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:18:47 PM EST
    but you don't understand those voters if you think that will get them to vote for us. Sure they think those things are great as long as only "worthy" people get those things. Offering it to everybody is a death knell with these voters.

    Parent
    Hey, I agree, kdog. (none / 0) (#188)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:36:51 PM EST
    And I would argue that Clinton ran a campaign that was as close to your ideal as we have ever seen. Did she go as far as i would have liked? No, but if she had won we would be so much closer to universal health care, a living wage minimum wage and at least a rational discussion of a basic universal income.  

    I hope the Democratic Party, and Perez and Ellison, move in this direction rather than focusing, as so many are urging, on somehow trying to placate angry white people to the exclusion of people of color and women and LGBTQ people from the Party platform.

    My fear is that Party leaders will once again waste time and resources trying to court people who will never accept a more diverse coalition.

    Parent

    Colin Cowherd is nothing if not (none / 0) (#170)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:31:38 PM EST
    consistent. He has always been a blowhard, as well as an a$$hole. He is clearly envious of radio drive time shock jocks and all the stupid things they get to say on the air.

    I have never understood why he gets as much airtime as he does.

    Parent

    I don't know much about him (none / 0) (#173)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 01:43:47 PM EST
    it does seem though some of his comments illustrate the points both articles are making.

    Parent
    He says it like... (none / 0) (#178)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 02:34:40 PM EST
    tats, weed, kicks, Xboxes, beer and schwag are bad things, and a man should not be free to spend the fruits of his highly marketable talent as he sees fit.  

    Parent
    No, kdog. Cowherd was saying that ... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    ... colleges shouldn't be in the business of paying their student-athletes. And on this particular subject, and speaking as a former student-athlete myself who had a full-ride scholarship, I happen to agree with him.

    Only seven of 250+ NCAA-affiliated Div. 1 schools have athletic programs which are operating in the black. My elder daughter's full-ride volleyball scholarship ultimately saved us having to otherwise spend $100,000 over a 4-year period on tuition, textbooks, room and board, etc. That's the deal here.

    You want to effectively destroy college sports as we know it, I'd be hard-pressed to think of an easier way to accomplish that than to require that student-athletes be put on the campus payroll as though they were employees. Most schools will then be compelled to cut back significantly on their interscholastic athletic programs, if not eliminate their athletic departments entirely.

    If these players are so marketable that they want to get paid a salary, then they should declare themselves professionals and make themselves available to the respective drafts of the NFL, NBA, MLS, etc.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not all student athletes... (none / 0) (#189)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:37:27 PM EST
    just the one that generate millions/billions in revenue.

    As for B-Ball,. top players used to go straight to the pros to get their proper compensation...till the pros changed the rules of their domestic monopoly.  Now the only option is playing pro-ball abroad...which I'm surprised more top level 18 year olds don't do.  That's what I'd do.

    If a fair wage for fair work that generates ungodly sums of revenue destroys college athletics as we know it, I would think college athletics as we know it should not exist.  It might be lovely for your daughter and other student athletes in non revenue-generating sports, and it sure is damn lovely for Rick Pitino and Nick Saban...but I'd hardly call that fair to the basketball and football players, who by any objective measure are getting royally screwed.


    Parent

    Except Cowherd wasn't simply (none / 0) (#190)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:42:26 PM EST
    making the case against paying college athletes that you outlined. He was trafficking in racist tropes to denigrate student athletes.

    You lend credence to his argument by pretending that he had something serious and valuable to add to the discussion.

    Parent

    Bingo! (none / 0) (#194)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:57:03 PM EST
    Cowherd sounds like a southern plantation owner circa 1850 arguing against paying the slaves in the fields when Mastah already feedin' and clothin' and boardin' 'em! What else dem field hands need anyway?

    Or a modern day GOPer opposed to a living wage law, for that matter.

    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#181)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    Having listened extensively to both, AM sport stalk radio can often be far more obnoxious than your garden variety, conspiracy theory-minded AM white-wing squawk radio.

    This is especially so when it comes to the trafficking of casual misogyny / bigotry / homophobia, and the promotion of lazy ethnic / gender / sexual stereotypes.

    And in my opinion, sports radio jocks like Colin Cowherd are some of the biggest offenders. It's as though they and their guests think it's perfectly okay to say otherwise shockingly numbskulled things about women, minorities and LGBT persons, just because the primary context of their radio shows is on sports.

    Some things recently said over the sports radio airwaves by these jackwagons about Mack Beggs, the 17-year-old transgender high school wrestler forced to compete in the girls division because of ignorance and stupidity of the adults who oversee Texas high school athletics, were simply grotesque and ultimately very sad.

    I mean, we're talking about a teenager! And save for some genetic crosswiring which rendered him a girl at birth, Mack Beggs is in every respect a typical 17-year-old boy. He looks like one, he acts like one and most importantly, he's physically built like one.

    C'mon, guys! Why does it take an old-school sportscaster like WFAA-TV's Dale Hansen to have to set you -- his younger, supposedly more "progressive" counterparts -- straight, so to speak? Boo. Hiss.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    "This is especially so..." (none / 0) (#185)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:19:26 PM EST
    This is especially so when it comes to the trafficking of casual misogyny / bigotry / homophobia, and the promotion of lazy ethnic / gender / sexual stereotypes.

    Huh. We see it right here on TL, too.

    For example there's a guy here who casually and repeatedly refers to this one gay dude as an "attention-seeking shock Queen" and "Miss Milo."

    Stuff like that.

    Parent

    I think there are exceptions (none / 0) (#187)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:24:56 PM EST
    like black people using the N word. The context is important.

    Parent
    This person uses these words (none / 0) (#191)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:43:05 PM EST
    in a very derogatory manner to express his dislike and disdain for this other dude who is gay.

    Is that type of context OK by you?

    Parent

    I challenge you to cite more than one or two (none / 0) (#192)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:45:25 PM EST
    examples of "stuff like that" from the progressives who comment here. Those particular comments on Milo Y were deplorable, not acceptable even when harshly criticizing him (not even for perceived hypocrisy), and most important not remotely typical.

    Parent
    Thanks, I agree with you. (none / 0) (#196)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:06:39 PM EST
    That said, North Korea is to international diplomacy what Milo Yiannopolous is to cable news networks -- an attention-seeking shock queen.

    Personally, I find him to be nothing more than an attention-seeking shock queen

    Better that silly queens like him be pitied, rather than confronted.

    Miss Milo is just another screaming celebrity-wannabe who thrives on attention and controversy.

    The self-loathing queen played onstage by Miss Milo is strictly regional theatre.

    "Stuff like that" would, for example, include the same poster's repeated fat shaming of Chris Christie.

    Parent

    Maybe I misread your comment, (none / 0) (#201)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:34:08 PM EST
    were you looking for the "Stuff like that" examples?

    Meanwhile, Trump's roly-poly Boy Friday, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie

    Because I've already called first dibs on ... ... the vision in which Christie assumes the role of the oversized Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man from "Ghostbusters," stomping on everything in sight.

    I'm not going to spend any more time looking for more examples.

    Parent

    Except Cowherd (none / 0) (#197)
    by NYShooter on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    [new] Except Cowherd wasn't simply (none / 0) (#190)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 03:42:26 PM EST

    making the case against paying college athletes that you outlined. "He was trafficking in racist tropes to denigrate student athletes."

    Sorry, Peter.....when you've driven out thinking people you're left with an echo chamber and have to put up with people who hear things that have never been said, or implied.....[Cowherd] "trafficking in racist tropes"......just one example of the unsupportable, unforgiveable lies accepted here

    Parent

    C'mon man (none / 0) (#199)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 at 04:23:26 PM EST
    Cowherd came under fire Thursday when discussing the complexity of the game of baseball. 

    "Like I've never bought into that, 'Baseball's just too complex,'" Cowherd said, according to the New York Times' Richard Sandomir. "Really? A third of the sport is from the Dominican Republic."

    What the heck is that if not a racist trope?

    Parent

    And there is zero difference between you (none / 0) (#204)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 17, 2017 at 11:19:27 AM EST
    those you so self-righteously lambasted for

    "the trafficking of casual misogyny / bigotry / homophobia, and the promotion of lazy ethnic / gender / sexual stereotypes."

    I agree with Peter G regarding your comments.

    That you can't seem to comprehend any of this makes me embarrassed for you.