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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 12:28:16 PM EST
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Neil Gorsuch was sworn in today as Supreme Court Justice.

I continue to have no interest in writing about Donald Trump. I haven't read a single article about him or his family since the day he dropped missiles on Syria. That his son now feels entitled to consider a run for NY Governor is laughable.

What I am reading: news in other countries, particularly, Mexico and the latest arrests of allegedly corrupt cops, prosecutors and politicians.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< "Mike the Situation" Charged With New Federal Tax Crimes | AG Sessions Border Rant >

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    Monday Open Thread | 193 comments (193 topical)

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    My fav picture of the week.. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by desertswine on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 06:26:09 PM EST
    Kushner, making a fashion statement (in his weekend preppy best)in Iraq.  Where's my yacht parked?

    "All Coiffured on the Western Front." (none / 0) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:57:07 AM EST
    Or perhaps a better caption might be "Band of Brooks Brothers," "A Farewell to Armani" or "The Fog of Dior."

    (Bah-DUMM-Bumm-Bump!)
    ;-D

    Parent

    There is a whole twitter meme (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    with movie titles...those are some good ones Donald!

    Others
    Saving Private Equity
    The Spa Locker
    All Quiet on the West Palm Beach

    Parent

    Oh, oh! Now you got me started: (none / 0) (#98)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:41:30 PM EST
    • "Son-in-Law of the Morning Star"
    • "Bimbo: Blue Blood, Part II"
    • "The Man Whose Father-in-Law Would Be King"
    • "They Ride With Their Suits On"
    • "Dances With Wolves of Wall Street"
    • "Letters from Ipanema"
    • "Million Dollar Trust Fund Baby"
    • "From Here to Fraternity Row"
    • "U.S. Heir Force"
    • "Born on Third Base on the Fourth of July"
    • "12 O'clock High Life"
    • "The Battle of Benneton"
    • "The Great Escapade"
    • "The Wild Brunch"
    • "The Good, the Sad, and the Bigly"
    • "The Big Red One Percenter"
    • "The Russians Are Hacking, the Russians Are Hacking"
    • "Ticky Tacky Tailored Spy"
    • "The Spy Who Came Home With the Gold"
    • "Putin On the Ritz"
    • "Red Don"
    • "Steel Megalomaniacs"
    • "Breakfasts With Tiffany"
    • "All About Ivanka"

    Thank you for subtly encouraging me to waste a few hours this morning concocting a list of some seriously goofy stuff. I needed that.

    ;-D

    Parent

    And speaking of Ticky Tacky Soviet Spy, ... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:07:16 PM EST
    ... nobody better fits the bill than our good friend Carter Page. Even his alleged Russian handlers once described him as "an idiot":

    Washington Post | April 11, 2017
    FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor former Trump adviser Carter Page - "The FBI obtained a secret court order last summer to monitor the communications of an adviser to presidential candidate Donald Trump, part of an investigation into possible links between Russia and the campaign, law enforcement and other U.S. officials said. The FBI and the Justice Department obtained the warrant targeting Carter Page's communications after convincing a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judge that there was probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power, in this case Russia, according to the officials. This is the clearest evidence so far that the FBI had reason to believe during the 2016 presidential campaign that a Trump campaign adviser was in touch with Russian agents. Such contacts are now at the center of an investigation into whether the campaign coordinated with the Russian government to swing the election in Trump's favor." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Drip, drip, drip.

    Parent

    Russia house 2016 (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by FlJoe on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 04:14:52 PM EST
    British spies were first to spot Trump team's links with Russia
    GCHQ first became aware in late 2015 of suspicious "interactions" between figures connected to Trump and known or suspected Russian agents, a source close to UK intelligence said. This intelligence was passed to the US as part of a routine exchange of information, they added.

    Over the next six months, until summer 2016, a number of western agencies shared further information on contacts between Trump's inner circle and Russians, sources said.

    The European countries that passed on electronic intelligence - known as sigint - included Germany, Estonia and Poland. Australia, a member of the "Five Eyes" spying alliance that also includes the US, UK, Canada and New Zealand, also relayed material, one source said.

    Another source suggested the Dutch and the French spy agency, the General Directorate for the General Directorate for External Security or DGSE, were contributors.

    Here's that routine thing again

    The alleged conversations were picked up by chance as part of routine surveillance of Russian intelligence assets. Over several months, different agencies targeting the same people began to see a pattern of connections that were flagged to intelligence officials in the US.

    Swing a dead cat and all that.

    Parent
    Great minds think alike. (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 04:45:01 PM EST
    I was writing on the same thing at the same time, which I posted above. Your link to the Guardian article from which you quote doesn't work, so here it is. LINK.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    And in yet another rock thrown ... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:14:45 PM EST
    ... across the Atlantic, there's THIS little nugget:

    The Sun (London, UK) | April 13, 2017
    Moscow Money: Ex-MI6 chief accuses Donald Trump of secretly borrowing from Russia to keep his property empire afloat during the financial crisis - "A former MI6 chief has accused Donald Trump of secretly borrowing from Russia to keep his property empire afloat during the financial crisis. The bombshell accusation from ex-spymaster Sir Richard Dearlove comes as rumours continue to swirl about the president's past business dealings with Moscow. Well connected Sir Richard also warned any shady deals could still come back to haunt the billionaire in the White House. The MI6 chief between 1999 and 2004 told Prospect magazine: 'What lingers for Trump may be what deals -- on what terms -- he did after the financial crisis of 2008 to borrow Russian money when others in the west apparently would not lend to him.' His intervention deepens the already raging feud between Trump and the intelligence community on both sides of the Atlantic."

    Josh Marshall likewise argued yesterday that Trump's extensive business dealings with the Russian mafioso and oligarchy are "hiding in plain sight," and that this may be the real scandal here:

    "There's been a fair amount of discussion of Donald Trump's multiple business ties to people from the Russian criminal underworld. This is not primarily contacts or associations that came up during the campaign but ties that go back in most cases a bit more than a decade. The regimes of Russia and other post-Soviet states are heavily kleptocratic. So the lines separating oligarchs from governments from organized crime bosses can be very hard to draw and in many cases are close to non-existent.

    "Most reports and observers of the Trump / Russia story have tended to look at this morass of ties and associations and see this as the swamp in which the smoking gun or extensive evidence of Trump's ties to Russian intelligence and hacking will be found. I think there's a quite good chance that that's true - for a number of reasons I hope to get to in coming days. It's a solid assumption.

    "But this assumption has tended to hide an extremely relevant story in plain site: namely, Donald Trump had and continues to have extensive and deep ties and business dependence on organized crime figures in the US, Russia, Ukraine and a host of other countries. If we'd never heard about Russian intelligence hacking of the 2016 election or Carter Page or Paul Manafort or Sergei Kislyak this would seem like an extraordinarily big deal. And indeed it is an extraordinarily big deal." (Emphasis is mine.")

    Hard to see how this president and his administration don't eventually collapse under the weight of their own extraordinary amount of personal baggage.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes, as I read almost 100 days ago (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:45:42 PM EST
    the worry, the major conflict of interest that could really screw we-the-people, is not as much what Trump owns as what he owes.

    Of course, we would know that, if it mattered anymore that candidates release their tax returns.

    (And let it be said that the next Democrats to run need not release tax returns, either, since Sanders did not do so -- never a full return.)  

    Parent

    The noose (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 05:17:40 PM EST
    is really starting to tighten around Donald and his merry gang of misfits. Along with the IC we now have the NY AG likely to charge Trump under RICO violations.

    Parent
    I read that Carter Page has never met Trump (none / 0) (#137)
    by Green26 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:26:59 AM EST
    Page can't have been much of an advisor if that is true.

    Parent
    FYI, Carter Page was first named publicly ... (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 03:34:53 AM EST
    ... by the Trump campaign on March 21, 2016 as one of the candidate's key foreign policy advisers:

    "Trump's team of foreign policy advisers, led by Alabama Sen. Jeff Sessions, consists of counter-terrorism expert Walid Phares, energy consultant George Papadopoulos, former Defense Department inspector general Joe Schmitz, managing partner of Global Energy Capital Carter Page and former Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg. Trump spokeswoman Hope Hicks confirmed the names to CNN." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Earlier that same day, Donald Trump himself identified Page by name as a member of his campaign foreign policy team during his meeting with the Washington Post Editorial Board:

    FREDERICK RYAN, JR., PUBLISHER: "Mr. Trump, welcome to the Washington Post. Thank you for making time to meet with our editorial board."

    TRUMP: "New building. Yes this is very nice. Good luck with it."

    RYAN: "Thank you... We've heard you're going to be announcing your foreign policy team shortly... Any you can share with us?"

    TRUMP: "Well, I hadn't thought of doing it, but if you want I can give you some of the names -- Walid Phares, who you probably know, PhD, adviser to the House of Representatives caucus, and counter-terrorism expert; Carter Page, Ph.D.; George Papadopoulos, he's an energy and oil consultant, excellent guy; the Honorable Joe Schmitz, [former] inspector general at the Department of Defense; [retired] Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg; and I have quite a few more. But that's a group of some of the people that we are dealing with. We have many other people in different aspects of what we do, but that's a representative group." (Emphasis is mine.)

    So, whatever your source was for that information, let's just say that it has "agenda" written all over it. I can certainly understand why some people in the White House might now want people to believe that Trump doesn't know Page from a hole in the ground, particularly given today's revelation in the Post about the FISA warrant being authorized in July 2016 for the FBI to surveil Page as a possible Russian agent. But honestly, Page's ties to Moscow were already raising some eyebrows publicly within days of his appointment to the Trump foreign policy team in late March 2016:

    Bloomberg News | March 30, 2016
    Trump's New Russia Adviser Has Deep Ties to Kremlin's Gazprom - "A globe-trotting American investment banker who's built a career on deals with Russia and its state-run gas company, Carter Page says his business has suffered directly from the U.S. economic sanctions imposed after Russia's escalating involvement in the Ukraine. When Donald Trump named him last week as one of his foreign-policy advisers, Page says his e-mail inbox filled up with positive notes from Russian contacts. 'So many people who I know and have worked with have been so adversely affected by the sanctions policy,' Page said in a two-hour interview last week. 'There's a lot of excitement in terms of the possibilities for creating a better situation.'"  (Emphasis is mine.)

    Admittedly, the Trump campaign finally dropped Page in Sept. 2016, after being confronted by journalists over his trip to Moscow earlier that year and controversial public remarks at a Kremlin-sponsored forum. But it's likely too late for the Trump White House to disentangle and distance themselves from the chatterbox Page, given the number of times that his role in the campaign has been previously acknowledged by Trump's spokespeople. At this point, the best they can probably do would be to admit publicly that the campaign did a remarkably poor job at vetting him before bringing him on board.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Just curious (1.00 / 4) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 08:22:25 AM EST
    It appears that Paige violated no law, else the FBI would have charged him by now. Let's see examine this.

    This is the clearest evidence so far that the FBI had reason to believe during the 2016 presidential campaign that a Trump campaign adviser was in touch with Russian agents.

    Not really.

    Actually, that's not quite true. It's evidence that the Department of Justice sought to surveil Trump campaign figures using intel resources, but not necessarily that they had real evidence and/or a legitimate "reason to believe" that Trump campaign officials were in touch with Russian agents. It's extremely easy for the government to get approvals for FISA warrants, as we have discovered in the debates over renewals of Section 702 of the PATRIOT Act. That's actually the crux of the issue: did certain Trump campaign officials knowingly collude with Russian intelligence -- or did the Obama administration spy on political rivals in order to impact the election outcome? Both? Neither?

    And then:

    Had that warrant produced relevant evidence of a crime, does anyone doubt that it would have emerged by now? It only took a few weeks for the outgoing administration to leak the transcripts of Michael Flynn having a perfectly reasonable conversation with Russian ambassador Sergei Kirlyak during the transition. That leak that itself was illegal,

    Link

    So what we have here is an adviser that, evidently, never even met Trump but met some Russians and  may have done some business.

    Donald, you and your fellow Democrats are engaged in an attempt to overthrow a President of the United States. You are doing so because, like children, you don't like the way the game turned out.

    Worse, we have your leader on video telling the Russian President to be patient because he would have more flexibility after the election.

    Jake Tapper has the exchange:

    President Obama: "On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this, this can be solved but it's important for him to give me space."

    President Medvedev: "Yeah, I understand. I understand your message about space. Space for you..."

    President Obama: "This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

    President Medvedev: "I understand. I will transmit this information to Vladimir, and I stand with you."

    Here's video:

    Based on the current standards of supposed private conversations what would you call that? A sell out? Treason?

    BTW I was in the Soviet Union back in spring of '68. By your despicable actions and deplorable standards that makes me a Commie, or at the very least a Fellow Traveler.

    Parent

    Love the new standard (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 09:22:51 AM EST
    It appears that Paige violated no law, else the FBI would have charged him by now.

    Which, of course, isn't remotely true.  But it's amusing to hear this argument from purveyor's of the tinfoil,  "Lock her up!" brigade.

    Parent

    Do (none / 0) (#146)
    by FlJoe on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 09:44:22 AM EST
    you really think, a complex investigation like this would be wrapped up in less than a year? For reference they took a year for the email investigation. Keep whistling past the graveyard Jim.

    BTW: NO transcripts of Flynn's call have been leaked.

    Parent

    This isn't about Obama, Jim. (none / 0) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:25:11 PM EST
    Nor is it about you.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    et al (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 04:09:57 PM EST
    FlJoe , no. If they had anything it would have been announced pre election. Why?  Because Hillary knew she was in trouble the week before. Have you forgotten the cancellation of the very expensive firework display? This was just a fishing expedition that found nothing while violating his rights and now doubling down on it.

    Donald, yes. This is about Obama. He said what he said when he thought no one would hear and it is about you when you try to ignore it. Shame on you.

    Yman, you sound like FlJoe's echo chamber.  They found nothing. Yet they kept asking for FISA warrants. OTOH

    When President Reagan chose to confront the Soviet Union, calling it the evil empire that it was, Sen. Edward Kennedy chose to offer aid and comfort to General Secretary Andropov. On the Cold War, the greatest issue of his lifetime, Kennedy got it wrong.

    Kennedy made Andropov a couple of specific offers.

    First he offered to visit Moscow. "The main purpose of the meeting, according to the senator, would be to arm Soviet officials with explanations regarding problems of nuclear disarmament so they may be better prepared and more convincing during appearances in the USA." Kennedy would help the Soviets deal with Reagan by telling them how to brush up their propaganda.

    Then he offered to make it possible for Andropov to sit down for a few interviews on American television. "A direct appeal ... to the American people will, without a doubt, attract a great deal of attention and interest in the country. ... If the proposal is recognized as worthy, then Kennedy and his friends will bring about suitable steps to have representatives of the largest television companies in the USA contact Y.V. Andropov for an invitation to Moscow for the interviews. ... The senator underlined the importance that this initiative should be seen as coming from the American side."

    Kennedy would make certain the networks gave Andropov air time-and that they rigged the arrangement to look like honest journalism.
    Kennedy's motives? "Like other rational people," the memorandum explained, "[Kennedy] is very troubled by the current state of Soviet-American relations." But that high-minded concern represented only one of Kennedy's motives.
    "Tunney remarked that the senator wants to run for president in 1988," the memorandum continued. "Kennedy does not discount that during the 1984 campaign, the Democratic Party may officially turn to him to lead the fight against the Republicans and elect their candidate president."

    Kennedy proved eager to deal with Andropov-the leader of the Soviet Union, a former director of the KGB and a principal mover in both the crushing of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution and the suppression of the 1968 Prague Spring-at least in part to advance his own political prospects.

    Forbes

    If the Repubs are a  coluding...then they learned it from the Dems.

    Parent

    Spout ridiculous, irrelevant ... (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 05:44:12 PM EST
    ... wingnut garbage.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Yawn.

    Parent

    Your mission, Jim, is to find someone who cares. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 06:04:24 PM EST
    LINK.

    Parent
    That memo you keep quoting (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 07:33:52 AM EST
    has been declared a forgery and hoax by a number of investigators that looked into it, oh you who thinks 97% of climate scientists are conspiring to destroy America.

    What are you going to quote next? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

    None Dare Call It Conspiracy?

    A John Hagee sermon?

    Parent

    John Hagee! (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 04:39:58 PM EST
    The fire-breathing reverend was just in Honolulu last month, delivering a series of end-times sermons to the gullibl--er, I mean, the faithful -- at King's Cathedral, the apocalyptic evangelical church that's down the road from our elder daughter's place in Kuliouou Valley.

    But getting back to the far more interesting subject of ticky tacky tailored spies, it seems as though it was Her Majesty's General Communications Headquarters, aka GCHQ (British Intelligence Services), which first began noticing the increasing number of contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian government and intelligence operatives, as far back as the fall of 2015. This story just broke for the Guardian about 90 minutes ago:

    The Guardian | April 13, 2017
    British spies were first to spot Trump team's links with Russia - "Britain's spy agencies played a crucial role in alerting their counterparts in Washington to contacts between members of Donald Trump's campaign team and Russian intelligence operatives, the Guardian has been told. GCHQ first became aware in late 2015 of suspicious 'interactions' between figures connected to Trump and known or suspected Russian agents, a source close to UK intelligence said. This intelligence was passed to the US as part of a routine exchange of information, they added. [...] It is understood that GCHQ was at no point carrying out a targeted operation against Trump or his team or proactively seeking information. The alleged conversations were picked up by chance as part of routine surveillance of Russian intelligence assets. Over several months, different agencies targeting the same people began to see a pattern of connections that were flagged to intelligence officials in the US."

    Further, per the Guardian, it appears that GCHQ itself was the primary source of information and "principal whistleblower" which finally prompted their American counterparts to undertake a full-fledged investigation of the Trump-Russia connection in the summer of 2016.

    According to a source, "the FBI and the CIA were slow to appreciate the extensive nature of contacts between Trump's team and Moscow ahead of the US election. This was in part due to US law that prohibits US agencies from examining the private communications of American citizens without warrants. 'They are trained not to do this,' the source stressed."

    GCHQ, which like its U.S. counterparts does generally not comment on its operations and investigation, issued a rare public statement in March after White House Press Secretary Sean "Holocaust Centers" Spicer accused British intelligence of wiretapping Trump Tower in New York on behalf of the late Obama administration.

    "The erroneous claims prompted an extremely unusual rebuke from GCHQ, which generally refrains from commenting on all intelligence matters. The agency described the allegations first made by a former judge turned media commentator, Andrew Napolitano, as 'nonsense. They are utterly ridiculous and should be ignored,' a spokesperson for GCHQ said."

    Definitely worth a read, if only to further see how the different pieces of the puzzle are slowly coming together, including the possible role of former MI6 operative Christopher Steele, whose dossier accused the Trump team of extensive and long-term cooperation with Russia. It was Steele, let's recall, who first became alarmed at what he was seeing and began informing his former bosses at GCHQ of his findings during this period.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Fundamentalists of all stripes (none / 0) (#180)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:19:55 PM EST
    who claim to perfectly understand the mind of God, are in effect declaring themselves God.

    They and we would be much better off if they treated their fellow man as if he and she were God and if they let what's unfolding before their eyes and ears be all the revelation and creationism anyone ever needs. Which it is.

    "I think I could turn and live with the animals, they are so placid and self-contained"

    Parent

    And then suddenly, ... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:58:29 PM EST
    ... so much for placid and self-contained.

    <:-O>

    Parent

    Being picked up by a golden eagle (none / 0) (#183)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:12:40 PM EST
    is considered a good omen in many parts of the world. ;-)

    Parent
    As I mentioned a few years ago, (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by fishcamp on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 08:34:48 AM EST
    I filmed large monkey eating eagles from the treetop canopies in Borneo.  We all came to the same conclusion, we cameramen looked like monkeys.  Those American Sportsman film jobs kept getting more dangerous every month, so I soon quit.

    Another time in the mountains of Chile, I witnessed Condors working in tandem to capture sheep.  One would fly in to get the sheep running down the mountain, and the other would swoop in, grab one, soar out above the canyon, drop the sheep into the valley below, to be eaten later.

    Parent

    It's probably a much better omen than ... (none / 0) (#190)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 02:21:22 AM EST
    ... being picked up AT the Golden Eagle.
    ;-D

    Parent
    "And then suddenly..." (none / 0) (#184)
    by linea on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:18:33 PM EST
    oh my god!

    ... so much for placid and self-contained.
    <:-O>


    Parent
    dial me up (none / 0) (#185)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:27:13 PM EST
    when my friends the otters and crows concoct an A bomb or perpetrate a Holocaust.

    In the meantime, mm mm mm talk to the hand, home girl.

    Parent

    I don't worry about otters and crows. (none / 0) (#192)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 03:11:31 AM EST
    It's the capybaras that have me concerned. They're like giant mutant hamsters. And they have been inexplicably introduced into northern Florida.

    Parent
    Donald fron Hawaii (none / 0) (#186)
    by linea on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:33:05 PM EST
    i dont like that you posted a shocking vdeo that is actually a hoax. i feel it perpetuates the hoax. that's just how i feel.

    A viral video showing a golden eagle attempting to carry off a young child has been revealed as a hoax by its creators.


    Parent

    figures.. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:40:30 PM EST
    they were probably disappointed that a real eagle didn't carry off a real child, so they could attract advertisers who also wish a real eagle would carry off a real child.

    And of course, a bunch of lawyers wished that it actually happened.

    Parent

    That's too bad, linea. (none / 0) (#191)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 02:55:31 AM EST
    But life doesn't revolve around your likes and dislikes, any more than it does around mine. Of course the video's a hoax. It's a joke that's been circulating for years. I posted it to get a cheap laugh from jondee.

    Anyway, I apologize if you were startled and took it literally. I assumed most people would know that eagles don't prey on human beings. I perhaps shouldn't make such assumptions.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#166)
    by FlJoe on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:57:50 AM EST
    a 35 year old Dead Kennedy Deflection, you seriously need to update your playbook. Keep whistling.

    Parent
    The Kennedy-Russia conspiracy ... (none / 0) (#173)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 01:18:47 PM EST
    ... theory again???

    How many times does a lie have to be debunked before you stop spreading it?

    Parent

    In the long Marxian view.. (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:50:22 PM EST
    you could say that any company man type who reflexively aligns himself with capitalists who view workers as disposable tools Is a commie -- in the sense that they're doing their part to make revolution a future inevitability.

    Parent
    Saving (none / 0) (#145)
    by FlJoe on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 09:28:09 AM EST
    Private Rayon

    Parent
    Heh :) (none / 0) (#48)
    by Nemi on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:16:32 AM EST
    My immediate reaction to that picture was: Is that a closed umbrella he's holding in his right hand and casually leaning on?

    Parent
    Too goofy... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:48:56 AM EST
    I can't imagine what the poor army dude must be thinking.  

    "Do I really have to brief the pencil neck grifter Sir?
     

    Parent

    Every damned photo of Dunford with him (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:17:21 PM EST
    Dunford was animated, laughing, gesturing, friendly, happy (it was making me momentarily unhappy)....then poof - Bannon off the NSC and Dunford restored.

    Course it looks like we going to war with the littlest Kim now. I guess there was no winning hand, just degrees of failure.

    Parent

    One of the female Veterans (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:12:46 PM EST
    In my media group loves that they duct taped his name on him too.

    Parent
    Question of the day (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:08:24 AM EST
    Can the inept Trump administration manage to pull off an Easter egg roll?

    That they can handle... (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:51:44 AM EST
    they've been laying eggs since inauguration day.

    Parent
    Wow - I thought you ... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:55:32 AM EST
    ... were just making a joke, but apparently it's a real issue.

    You would think of there's anything they could pull off, it would be a staged, "feel good", public event that should be completely without difficult decisions or controversy.

    Guess not.

    Parent

    I don't know what's worse... (none / 0) (#147)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 10:11:01 AM EST
    that an Easter Egg Roll is such a huuuggge deal for presidential administrations, or that Trump can't handle said huuuggge deal.  I only find the former surprising though.

    Parent
    It is weird (none / 0) (#157)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 02:31:05 PM EST
    ... that it's such a YOOOGE deal.  Took my older kids there one year when they were toddlers - still have the wooden eggs.  But I had no idea it was such a bigly deal.  

    Parent
    It used to be a metaphor (none / 0) (#156)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 01:05:27 PM EST
    ... for stupidity to say, "He couldn't organize an Easter egg hunt."

    Used to be.  Those were good times.

    Parent

    Beautiful babies and (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:51:19 PM EST
    the "59 Tomahawk Syrian Policy:"   Eric said that his sister, Ivanka, was influential in the new Syrian policy, because she was heart-broken and outraged. And, apparently, said: Daaaad! do something. So he listened to his advisor.

    Spicer give the new 59 Tomahawks policy the Hitler treatment, saying "Hitler didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."  When someone pointed out that Der Fuehrer used the gas chambers, Spicer clarified that Hitler didn't use them "on his own people like Assad did."  Spicer is one of the "best people" Trump pledged to hire.

    Because the German Jews, after all (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:30:45 PM EST
    were not Hitler's "own people" -- most of the Holocaust dead were Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian, after all, so Hitler could hardly be blamed for slaughtering them -- nor were the gays, the Communists and socialists, the artists, the Roma, or the disabled, apparently. This is beyond inarticulate; it betrays a deeply ingrained lack of understanding of our shared humanity.

    Parent
    Peter G, (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:40:29 PM EST
    it is just astounding.  It is, of course, deep ignorance, but I wonder if this is not water-cooler talk in the West Wing.  Surely the response to a possible question was practiced before the Spice presser.  While it is feasible that Spicer et al are not much into chemistry, running Sarin and Zyklon B together, the rest is too much Alt Right for comfort.

    Parent
    Let's please not forget the Russians. (2.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:21:06 PM EST
    The Soviet Union's population was reduced in number by about 14% between June 22, 1941 and May 9, 1945, from nearly 198 million to 171 million. The German invasion of Russia in World War II constituted a true race war, waged without mercy or quarter upon a supposedly "inferior" Slavic people. That appalling death toll was most certainly achieved by design, and not accomplished through mere collateral damage.

    Once overrun by the German advance, entire Russian villages and towns were simply wiped off the face of the earth, along with their inhabitants. Of the approximately 5.7 million Red Army soldiers taken prisoner by the Wehrmacht prior to Stalingrad, some 3.3-3.5 million of them subsequently died in captivity, having been subjected to starvation, neglect, slave labor and almost every imaginable cruelty, including medical experimentation.

    That the Russians somehow survived all those hammer blows rained down upon them by the Germans and eventually persevered, is an epic story of collective endurance that will likely transcend their existence as a people for countless generations to come. Their innate suspicion of Western intentions is a direct result of that national trauma.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thanks for your usual lecture, Donald (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:32:04 PM EST
    but we were talking about the Holocaust. Or at least I was. In fact, it seems to me that you are making the same mistake as Spicer -- forgetting Rule One of How Not to Advance an Argument or Discussion:  Under no circumstances will any good ever come of comparing anyone or anything, favorably or unfavorably, to Hitler or to the Holocaust. So just don't.

    Parent
    About 11 million people lost their lives ... (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:56:33 PM EST
    ... in Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, of whom six million were Jews. Of that latter number, some three million were Polish, which amounted to 90% of Poland's pre-war Jewish population. An estimated 400,000 Catholic Poles were killed by the Germans for the "crime" of helping. sheltering and shielding Jews from their Nazi pursuers. About 20% of Poland's pre-war population of 30 million did not survive the war.

    So, the Holocaust isn't exclusive to European Jewry, who accounted for about 55% of its victims. The Nazis also targeted for elimination millions of people deemed undesirable, including homosexuals, gypsies, Slavs (particularly Poles and Russians), and the physically and mentally handicapped. Those of Jewish lineage so happened to be the priority, at the very top of the list.

    In the Soviet Union itself, about 60% of the Russian / Ukrainian Jewish population were killed by German occupiers, mostly on site by firing squad when and where they were found. Ironically, Stalin's pre-war late 1930s policy of deporting Jews from the western Soviet Union to territories farther east likely spared, albeit inadvertently, the lives of upwards of a half-million Soviet Jews.

    As far as Sean Spicer is concerned, Trump deserves the guy as a spokesman, because Spicer is just as ignorant, inarticulate and dissembling as he is. I don't know why people still profess to be shocked any more by what Spicer says. Outrageous as it was, I see today's fumbling and bumbling about Hitler and "Holocaust Centers" as simply par for the course. It's been my experience in politics that when certain people like Spicer and Trump really don't care about certain issues, they tend to be fairly careless in what they say about such things.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Doubling down on don't go there, Donald (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Peter G on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 09:01:41 AM EST
    You are using weasel words. What happened "during" the Holocaust is not the same as what was the Holocaust. When you change the meaning of important words, you prevent intelligent discussion about the concepts those words denote. I think it is clear that when I referred to "the Holocaust" I meant (as most people do) the disaster (Shoah) that befell the Jewish people of Europe due to the Nazi regime's deliberate policy and systematic plan of genocidal extermination of the Jews. As a result of this plan, almost 6 million of Europe's more than 8 million pre-War Jews were murdered, many of them by the use of poison gas. The term "Holocaust," in my opinion at least, is not properly used to describe all the vicious, disastrous activities of the Nazi regime and its allies and collaborators. That some 11 million in all died in Nazi concentration camps, prisoner of war camps, and as a result of the Nazis' general inhumanity toward the Poles and Russians is true, but irrelevant to the point I was making about Spicer's comment.

    Parent
    Sean Spicer has fully returned to what (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:01:26 PM EST
    Melissa McCarthy  termed, "I don't talk so good." Will she return to do Sean Spicer going Godwin?

    Oh yeah, she has to (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:44:01 PM EST
    It just gets worse every day. How long can this possibly last? The Holocaust centers? This is a professional spokesman?

    Parent
    I would not be surprised (none / 0) (#115)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:01:25 PM EST
    if he was done. How can you recover from this? His attempted walk-back was almost as bad.

    Parent
    He is so plainly inept at his job (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    Even if he had a good story to tell about the administration, he couldn't tell it.

    I find myself missing Tony Snow who could smoothly sell pure BS.

    Parent

    That Guy! (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:25:56 PM EST
    You have a great memory for Playas.

    I was explaining to my husband that you said 'Better Call Saul' improves. Good now, will be great soon. Then he went off on some tangent about, "Well yeah, everything that gets a second season and third gets better."

    I held up my hand. Told him plain that that probably isn't true. I said, "Don't try to be ruffian. We will come to you for military analysis, but don't try to do entertainment love. Stick to what you know."

    Parent

    i don't know ruffian. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:03:45 PM EST
    I think "how much longer" can this nonsense go on every day and yet the nonsense continues. Spicer is a blithering idiot but they'll just get another blithering idiot to replace him if he goes. These are people who are having a problem with the Easter Egg roll.

    Parent
    He speaks Trumpisms now (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:11:02 PM EST
    More robustly than dearest father leader. If Melissa comes back to SNL to do this though he may not make it. Trump doesn't like that!

    If Spicer becomes more talked about on CNN than Trump for making reality up that can be a problem too. Maybe we should call the White House Wolf Hall :)

    Parent

    The amazing thing about this (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:27:36 PM EST
    ...is that it was a prepared talking point.  He didn't just summon the analogy out of thin air.

    They actually thought about this and discussed it before he walked out there. And did it anyway.

    Parent

    The artery is gushing blood (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:05:22 PM EST


    Parent
    Why is it? (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:04:56 PM EST
    The Georgia preacher, Pastor Ken Atkins, who is so anti-gay that he tweeted about the Pulse Nightclub victims massacred by Omar Maateen:  "I don't see none of them as victims.  I see them as getting what they deserved," was convicted today of child molestation.  The pastor had a relationship with an underage boy and an underage girl who attended his church.

    I'm shocked! (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:09:40 PM EST
    Just shocked all to heck!

    Parent
    Whoa! (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:18:12 PM EST
    Talk about dogma getting run over by karma.

    Parent
    Not that we don't (none / 0) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:49:24 PM EST
    have enough problems in GA but it looks like that pastor was in Florida not GA.

    Parent
    It would seem (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 11:11:41 PM EST
    that the pastor is a Florida type, but it is a little confusing.  Not that the geography FL/GA matters, in any event. They are everywhere.

    Parent
    RIP J Geils. (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:29:57 PM EST
    Found dead today in his Mass. home. Weird. Don't listen to a lot J Geils band, but just happened to pop J Geils CD into the player in car this past weekend. Been jamming to it for 3 days now.

    I will listen tomorrow (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:15:35 PM EST
    One of my faves from back when

    Parent
    The first LP I ever bought with my own money (none / 0) (#130)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:15:58 PM EST
    was Freeze Frame by the J. Geils Band.  Great album,
    great cover art.

    Parent
    Bloodshot was my first Geils (none / 0) (#136)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:16:23 AM EST
    I had the red vinyl pressing.  Idiots to whom I had loaned the album managed to splotch it with black ink.  But we were young and his harmonica player's name made us smirk.

    Parent
    Saw them once (none / 0) (#141)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 07:09:41 AM EST
    ...in 1982 when they opened for the Stones on the "Tattoo You" tour.

    Parent
    RIP (none / 0) (#149)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 10:31:37 AM EST
    Those guys made a lot of people get up and dance and brought a lot of smiles to a lot of faces.

    And as an old harp player, I can tell you that Magic Dick, in the immortal words of Peter Wolf, can still blow your face out.

    Parent

    And so it is. (none / 0) (#163)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 06:50:00 PM EST
    Charles P. Pierce: "[The J. Geils Band] were steeped in the deep Chicago blues; their epic cover of John Lee Hooker's 'Serves You Right To Suffer' was downright goddamn cataclysmic."

    Takes me back to a time when I'd fire up a blunt, take a deep drag, and then pass it down the aisle to share with my fellow concertgoers.

    Rest in peace, man.

     

    Parent

    About those claims from Nunes (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    Nevermind.

    Documents contradict Nunes unmasking claims about the surveillance documents, say both Democratic and Republican sources who have reviewed them.  

    Shocker.  Time to stock up on more tinfoil.

    Betty Crocker Bake-Off. (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by KeysDan on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:55:50 PM EST
    In an interview with Fox's Maria Bartiromo, Trump provided a few crumbs about his war-making, decision-making and diplomatic skills.

      While finishing dinner at Mar a Lago with China President Xi, Trump let him in on hot off the griddle news. Trump struck at dessert time to inform Xi of the strike in the desert "  ... the most beautiful piece of chocolate cake that you've ever seen....I said, we've just launched 59 missiles heading to Iraq and I wanted you to know."  

     Understandably, President Xi asked his interpreter to repeat Trump's statement, given the oddity of bombing Iraq to teach Syria's Assad a lesson on gassing.

    A highlight of the interview was Trump's awe of missile technology, having been so accurately fired many miles away from the target.  Miss Bartiromo, alternated, too, from shock to awe, as did, no doubt, her viewers.

     She was barely able to get her question out: "unmanned missiles?"

     ( frosting on the cake: those manned missiles are fun in take off, but a soft landing has not yet perfected; so yes, unmanned).  

    All very presidential, Trump has pivoted. At least, his chocolate cake is better than Bush's yellow cake. For now.

    Note, he said he bombed Iraq. (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Towanda on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 04:10:11 PM EST
    Does the large orange lout even know which country he hit? Which country's civilians, including childre, he killed?

    Parent
    Lawd lawd (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 01:00:32 PM EST
    Sean Spicer says they are unbelievably confident in the intelligence they have on Syria. He does realize that that is the first rule of intelligence collection and analysis that he's broken there right?

    Ha! did he really use the word (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 01:13:23 PM EST
     "unbelievably"?  That is about right. I certainly don't believe a word he says.

    Parent
    Trump told him to say "Bigly"... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 03:46:49 PM EST
    bigly confident.  Spicer will be wearing the dunce cap in the corner during the next cabinet meeting as pennance.  And he better be wearing a Trump brand tie or that'll be another demerit!

    Parent
    Better Call Saul is back tonight (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 01:16:54 PM EST
    Until the thing with United broke I thought that was going to be the highlight of my Monday.

    I don't see how United recovers from this.

    Holy Sh&t... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 02:15:06 PM EST
    I tune out for the weekend and missed United jackboot that poor guy.

    Sadly they will recover if they're 5 bucks cheaper on a round trip...the airline business has taught us that, if nothing else...there is no indignity too great that can't be overcome by a cheaper fare on the web.

    But that poor guy who got lumped up...damn. The 800 clams and a free hotel room just turned into 8 million clams, but he needs to call Saul;)

    Parent

    Well, United (none / 0) (#6)
    by KeysDan on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 03:19:38 PM EST
    advertises its "Friendly Skies," they never claimed they would be friendly while on the ground.  And, it looks like the passenger was wearing something like the forbidden leggings, and was inappropriately attired, with his upper torso exposing skin as he was being dragged down the aisle. A bum rap for corporate job-creators, not even presidentially tweet-worthy.  

    Parent
    United is a horrible airline (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Green26 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 07:29:10 PM EST
    My family loved the 2016 Bloomberg article entitled:

    United's Quest to Be Less Awful: A bungled merger. A corruption scandal. Three CEOs in a year. But hey, at least the snacks are free again.

    Contrast to another airline today, where the pilot deadheading and sitting next to my wife, who had a very tight connection due to a late departure, announced to everyone to let off the passengers with tight connections first--and, get this, called the pilots of the next plane to tell them a passenger would be running to get to their flight and to not depart the gate early. She made the flight. I saw online that the flight departed 3 minutes late.

    Parent

    More to my wife's story (none / 0) (#35)
    by Green26 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:39:25 PM EST
    The deadheading pilot stood up as the plane landed, and said to the whole plane that there were 5 passengers with tight connections. He listed the seat numbers of all 5 passengers. The other passengers allowed the 5 to get off the plane. That pilot and his pilot buddy across the aisle were on their iPads, looking at their travel site, and giving my wife info on what she could do if she missed her connection.

    Parent
    Back in the day (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 11:29:23 AM EST
    I was a UAL 1K Million Miler... and it was pretty good. Almost always upgraded with lots of booze and not too bad food. Asking people to remain seated for close connectors was pretty standard if the flight was late. Much of the equipment was 727's and DC-10's, which I once heard a pilot say of the 10, "..a collection of parts mostly going the same way..." but safety issues aside it had a pretty nice ride and the 727's had a galley with a booze locker in the rear.

    The airlines have reduced seat their capacity and got rid of a lot of the old ones and replaced many of them with various versions of the 737, a rigid wing bumper that's a terrible ride in all situations and hellish in bad weather.

    My last ride in FC, was not quite as good as coach  use to be and watching the security people on boarding and then realizing they were the security people was a scary thing.

    I'm trying to find a class on how to teleport myself.....

    Parent

    I thought Legging-gate... (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 03:44:24 PM EST
    was a false flag operation by globalist United Airlines secret police to clear two more seats for employees under false pretense?

    When the logistics dept. can't count, the secret police make 2 + 2 = 2, the hard way.

    Parent

    and one of the worst corporate apologies (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peter G on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 08:36:28 PM EST
    ever. "We're sorry we had to re-accommodate this passenger." Not sorry we had the cops attack him. Sheesh.

    Parent
    "Sorry we had reaccommodate... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:03:08 AM EST
    this passenger's jaw" is what he meant to say.

    Parent
    Read this on twitter. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:37:22 PM EST
    United seating:

    Economy
    Economy Plus
    Economy Plus Beating!


    Parent

    United's Red Carpet (none / 0) (#75)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:03:44 PM EST
    Clubbing. Drag and Drop off service.

    Parent
    The video. (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 02:28:34 PM EST
    The video.

    Parent
    Hmmm..we haven't watched it (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 03:47:03 PM EST
    But if it has your seal of approval we might have to give it try.

    Parent
    I'm pretty much against (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:52:22 AM EST
    dragging people down airplane aisles.

    But I can see how you might tempt people.  ;-)

    Parent

    Just finished watching Season 2 on Netflix. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 08:50:20 PM EST
    Looking forward to Season 3 opener on Sling tonight.

    Parent
    I'll watch Saul but I didn't like (none / 0) (#18)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:22:50 PM EST
    how either of the first two seasons ended.  Great episodes until the final ones.

    As for United... looks like bad behavior all around.

    Parent

    Please clarify. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:35:49 PM EST
    Do you believe the passenger exhibited bad behavior for wanting to get home on time and to his patients?

    Parent
    He looked like an idiot to me Chuck (none / 0) (#21)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:53:57 PM EST
    I'm sure he'll profit nicely from his bad behavior.

    United messed up by waiting until passengers boarded the plane before bumping some of them but, as far as I know, they have the right to do that. I'd like to know how much they offered passengers to take another flight and why didn't they offer more?

    The airline security/police, whatever they are didn't do a good job of handling the situation either. If they need to forcibly remove someone from their seat, they should probably get everyone else off the plane first.  That alone might have persauded this guy to take another flight.

    Parent

    Annnd there it is. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 10:32:29 PM EST
    McBain blames the victim once again. The flight was not overbooked, they wanted to remove paying passengers to accommodate their own employees. If you believe wanting to get home and receiving the services you paid for is acting like an idiot, you are a complete subservient milquetoast and one sorry individual.

    Parent
    Oh that crazy McBain (none / 0) (#30)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:06:07 PM EST
    Always looking at the entire story.  As I said there was bad behavior from everyone.  Another passenger interviewed on CNN said the guy who refused to leave played the race card, saying they removed him because of the color of his skin.

     

    Parent

    maybe they did? (none / 0) (#33)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:33:06 PM EST
    didnt the flight attendants "randomly" pick four people? or did i get that wrong? what's the chance of picking an african american on a flight with 200(?) people? just wondering.

    Parent
    I believe he's Asian (none / 0) (#38)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:04:54 AM EST
    The passenger who was interviewed by CNN said the man who was forcibly removed first volunteered to take a different flight then changed his mind. I'll bet we'll hear a bunch of different stories.

    One of the things I don't understand from the videos is why he was allowed to run back and forth in the aisle with a bleeding head after being removed from his seat. Very strange.

    Parent

    I read that it was announced that (none / 0) (#40)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:18:12 AM EST
    the United computer would randomly pick 4 people to have to give up their seats for the 4 deadheading crew members. Don't think the flight crew picked anyone.

    Parent
    the United computer ? (none / 0) (#41)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:26:21 AM EST
    they hired a programmer on a six month contract to develop a random seat selection algorithm? ok then.

    Parent
    Here's one account of what happened (none / 0) (#42)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:46:59 AM EST
    "Passengers were allowed to board the flight, Bridges said, and once the flight was filled those on the plane were told that four people needed to give up their seats to stand-by United employees that needed to be in Louisville on Monday for a flight. Passengers were told that the flight would not take off until the United crew had seats, Bridges said, and the offer was increased to $800, but no one volunteered.

        Then, she said, a manager came aboard the plane and said a computer would select four people to be taken off the flight. One couple was selected first and left the airplane, she said, before the man in the video was confronted.

        Bridges said the man became "very upset" and said that he was a doctor who needed to see patients at a hospital in the morning. The manager told him that security would be called if he did not leave willingly, Bridges said, and the man said he was calling his lawyer. One security official came and spoke with him, and then another security officer came when he still refused. Then, she said, a third security official came on the plane and threw the passenger against the armrest before dragging him out of the plane.

        The man was able to get back on the plane after initially being taken off - his face was bloody and he seemed disoriented, Bridges said, and he ran to the back of the plane. Passengers asked to get off the plane as a medical crew came on to deal with the passenger, she said, and passengers were then told to go back to the gate so that officials could "tidy up" the plane before taking off."

    Don't know if this is accurate. Think airline computers may take various factors into account when making "selections" like this.

    Link.

    Parent

    Here's the NY Times article (none / 0) (#43)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:19:01 AM EST
    Link.

    I'm sorry, but what kind of idiot does this? Again, not excusing the actions of the airport security.

    "The man who had been removed returned to the flight briefly, Mr. Bridges said. Video shows him jogging through the aisle, repeatedly saying, "I have to go home."

    "Jayse Anspach, a seminary student who was also on the flight, said that when the man returned to the plane, he ran toward the back. It was not clear how the man had managed to board again."

    "At one point, the authorities and medics surrounded the man and gave him tissues for his mouth, which was bleeding, Mr. Anspach said. Eventually the man moved to the front of the plane and collapsed sideways into a seat before being taken off."

    "Mr. Hobart said: "We explained the scenario to the customer. That customer chose not to get out of his seat."

    "The United employee then told the man that if he did not get off the plane, she would call security. As she turned to leave, the man shouted after her, Mr. Bridges said. Specifically, he said, the passenger complained that he had been singled out because he was Chinese."

    Parent

    i found this (none / 0) (#109)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:11:00 PM EST
    United: Is There Really a Computer Random Passenger Selection?

    Parent
    Just finished reading that everyone in this (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:02:48 AM EST
    Family except one child is a medical doctor. Even his wife is a pediatrician.

    Not getting a real clear bad behavior criminal picture in my head of this passenger.

    Parent

    The United passenger has had serious (none / 0) (#62)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 11:19:54 AM EST
    bad behavior/criminal problems in the past.

    "Dao, who went to medical school in Vietnam in the 1970s before moving to the U.S., has worked as a pulmonologist in Elizabethtown but was arrested in 2003 and eventually convicted of drug-related offenses after an undercover investigation, according to documents filed with the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure last June.

    As for Dao's history as a doctor in Kentucky, the medical licensure board documents allege that he was involved in fraudulent prescriptions for controlled substances and was sexually involved with a patient who used to work for his practice and assisted police in building a case against him.

    Dao was convicted of multiple felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit in November 2004 and was placed on five years of supervised probation in January 2005, according to the documents. He surrendered his medical license the next month.

    The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure permitted Dao to resume practicing medicine in 2015 under certain conditions."

    Link.

    Parent

    Not much information really (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:16:53 PM EST
    I don't associate addiction with criminal behavoir. And if he has anxiety issues, which many self medicating people do, that explains his behavoir. I experience anxiety flying. I can never predict when it will hit me either, because it doesn't always affect me. But I spent the flight to and from Germany at Christmas bombed on gin and tonic.

    Parent
    Are you okay with him being sexually (none / 0) (#66)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:28:08 PM EST
    involved with a patient too? Would you want him to be the doctor for you and your family? Would you like to sit next to him on an airplane?

    Parent
    I used to work in a hospital (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:41:38 PM EST
    Doctors sexual partners usually end up being their patients somehow. Having sex outside of marriage still isn't illegal outside of the military in this country. As far as law enforcement using his sexual partner to build a case against him, I've learned volumes from Jeralyn about case building and snitches. It's not the Mayberry PD out there :) I'm not saying he's a perfect person. Do you think the governor of Alabama needs to be violently dragged off a plane if he refuses to miss his flight for work reasons? Cuz he's been diddling around and misusing funds.

    Parent
    A "troubled past," (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:07:31 PM EST
    can only mean, he had it coming, sitting in that seat he paid for and all.

    Parent
    Yup!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:55:45 PM EST


    Parent
    Or it might mean he has a history of making (2.00 / 1) (#77)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:46:13 PM EST
    bad decisions like the one he made when he refused to leave his seat when police arrived.  

    Parent
    A history of BAD decisions (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:57:34 PM EST
    I'm positive we ALL have one of those :)

    Parent
    Yes, a senior citizen, (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 03:09:20 PM EST
    age 69, from Viet Nam, may have some bad decisions in his life's experience.

    Parent
    It may be that making random decisions (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:21:50 PM EST
    about who to pull off airplanes is a really bad idea, given that everyone is going through their own stress at the time of the flight. On any given day I might react badly too.

    Parent
    Yes, in the middle of Josh's VEPTR surgery (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:32:18 PM EST
    My grandmother died. I had to fly home for 2 days leaving husband and 13 yr old daughter to care for Josh in ICU on a respirator. After my mother passed when I was 7, she was my mom.

    There would have been blood, screaming, dragging


    Parent

    Persons unknown (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:45:49 PM EST
    certainly didn't waste any time initiating a project to excavate dirt on Dr Dao.

    I wonder if any of the cops have had complaints filed or previous reprimands, or had any domestic abuse issues. Surely that information is as pertinent as the stuff from Dao's past.

    Parent

    Oh, for crying out loud, Green! (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:35:57 PM EST
    Green26: "Are you okay with him being sexually involved with a patient too? Would you want him to be the doctor for you and your family? Would you like to sit next to him on an airplane?"

    What does any of that possibly have to do with Sunday night's incident? Please don't parade the victim's alleged personal history here, as though it somehow justifies the brutality which was visited upon him.

    That's just seriously warped.

    Parent

    Wait till you see... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 03:14:28 PM EST
    his elementary school records Green...bastard got off easy!

    Parent
    I was just responding to MT's comment (none / 0) (#83)
    by Green26 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 03:38:33 PM EST
    when I provided the info from the linked article. Note that he lost his medical license for 10 years. Wonder what the conditions were and if he will lose his license again?

    MT's comment: "Not getting a real clear bad behavior criminal picture in my head of this passenger."

    My view is the guy had a significant bad behavior criminal picture.

    I'm not sticking up for United or the security police, but I find it interesting that some of you are sticking up for this passenger. He is clearly bad news. I suspect more will come out.

    Parent

    It does not matter if he ends up being an axe (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 03:58:11 PM EST
    murderer. His past criminal history or lack thereof has nothing to do with what happened on the plane. He was a paying customer who had every right to expect the service he paid for (and the last time I checked, buying a seat on a plane does not include a beating!).

    Parent
    Unfortunately, I don't think passengers (none / 0) (#89)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:38:26 PM EST
    have the rights we think they should.  United was probably withing their legal right to remove him from the plane.  I don't like the practice to begin with and it's even worse when everyone has already boarded.

    Parent
    And you would be wrong there (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    It has been stated all day that United broke the law in how they handled this. The guy wasn't even denied boarding, he had boarded. A transaction had been completed at that time. They had taken his money, he had boarded and was seated.

    Parent
    Do you have a link that claims United broke (none / 0) (#92)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:04:50 PM EST
    the law? Everything I've seen/read  is the opposite.

    So while United was within its rights, the incident raises questions of whether the crew of flight 3411 exercised good judgment in summoning security officers to remove the passenger.  

    Here's an article saying Dao (the passenger) might have broken the law.

    Link

    From a legal perspective, he was violating the law if he interfered with the crew members' duties or the ability for the plane to be operated


    Parent
    United's own contract (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:15:21 PM EST
    Which of course must meet US regulations is here. Please notice that under reasons transport can be refused an oversold flight is not one of them. But the past head of the FAA attested all morning that United Airlines had violated FAA regulations in how they handled this situation. United is going to have their arses sued off.

    Parent
    If you scroll down a bit to find (none / 0) (#108)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:59:14 PM EST
    Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation....
    Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA's boarding priority:

    It doesn't say anything about once they've already boarded so it's probably a gray area. So is the "oversold flight" claim.  I don't doubt there will be a lawsuit.  Just not sure it will be a big settlement.

    Parent
    i found this (these) (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:06:07 PM EST
    LawNewz.com: United Airlines Cites Wrong Rule For Illegally De-Boarding Passenger

    Rule 21, entitled "Refusal of Transport," is very different because it clearly and expressly covers situations in which a passenger who has already boarded the plane can be removed.  It states clearly: "Rule 21, Refusal of Transport, UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the RIGHT TO REMOVE FROM THE AIRCRAFT AT ANY POINT, any passenger for the following reasons." [emphasis added]

    also see:

    United's Removal Of Passengers May Not Have Been Legal
    The passenger wasn't denied boarding -- he had a confirmed seat, and was allowed to board and take that seat. Later they come onboard and asked him to get off the plane. At that point that's no longer being denied boarding, but rather being refused transport. United's contract of carriage addresses both of these situations.

    Did United Airlines Violate Its Own Contract By Forcing That Passenger Off The Plane?
    A review of United's "Contract of Carriage" suggests that the airline carrier violated its own rules when it forcibly removed a passenger to make room for United employees.

    Parent

    linea and I are in agreement tonight (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:50:16 PM EST


    Parent
    Fair enough... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:21:18 PM EST
    As long as we all agree the man's past isn't relevant at all to what occurred on the plane...legally or more importantly morally.

    On the flip, nor is his being an MD or any other "respected" profession. All valid ticket holding and boarded passengers are created equal, endowed by parting with their bread with rights.


    Parent

    Wonder who that oppo (none / 0) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:51:13 PM EST
    Research originated with?

    Parent
    If, as an asian, he did not get straight A's... (none / 0) (#85)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:01:12 PM EST
    he deserved a beating ;-)!

    Parent
    You are going to like this guy, kdog, (none / 0) (#86)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 04:21:38 PM EST
    I read he won about $250K on the World Series of Poker!

    Parent
    At least he doesn't get beat (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 05:07:09 PM EST
    at the poker table like he did on that plane!

    Next time I play and drag a pot, I will be sure to thank my opponent for allowing me to re-accommodate their chips.

    Parent

    I heard they offered 4 hundred... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:59:51 AM EST
    then 800 hundred...but it's not clear if that was in cash or bullsh*t 100 vouchers that can only by applied to a flight one at a time and expire in a year.

    Also read there is a law that when you get tossed like a rag doll like this the airline is legally obligated to pay you 4x the ticket cost in cash...but the airlines will never tell you that.

    Parent

    $800 isn't much in air travel dollars (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:51:00 AM EST
    It was a pittance and the next flight out was the following afternoon. How could they have made such a paltry offer on a Sunday night?

    United ought to be ashamed of themselves, but no...doubling down today. The regulations were not followed either. The passengers who had already paid and were seated were required to be notified of their selection but also given paperwork and instructions on their rights. This is going to be a yuuuge lawsuit that United will eat.

    They also had big China expansion plans, but this video has gone viral in China and outrage is growing there.

    FAILURE on all levels

    Parent

    I'd imagine... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:07:04 AM EST
    there is some kind of bonus/performance incentive for United managers who get the customers to take the pu pu platter in lieu of fair compensation while they are getting screwed.

    Parent
    The airline industry is in such a sucking (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:21:46 AM EST
    Place right now.

    My husband and I argue about flying space available on military flights. I'm all for it, it's an adventure. He is not. At first his argument was uncomfortable seating on space A. The airlines fixed that, it's probably more comfy on space A now. No food on space A but they will allow you to bring a small cooler. You must have all of your fruits cheeses eaten by landing though when flying out of the country. Airline food is so bad I think bringing your own is a plus, he likes airline food...bleh. Where I lose the argument consistently is scheduling, he can't abide the uncertain schedule you must submit to flying space A.


    Parent

    Yes, the passenger exhibited bad (none / 0) (#34)
    by Green26 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:34:34 PM EST
    behavior and bad judgement. What kind of person, if they understand English, refuses to get off of a plane in that situation. Jeez, get up. Explain who you are and your situation, and if necessary, explain it all to the gate agent off the plane and show your identity, or that you are a doctor.

    No, I am not suggesting that United and the security people were right in this situation. They weren't.

    Speak up if you would refuse to get off a plane in this situation. Show your true colors.

    Is the guy a doctor or not? I didn't google. He looked like an idiot to me, as he was dragged off.

    And what about the screaming woman. What's her story?

    What about the rest of the plane passengers who apparently had to wait several hours to get back on their flight?

    What about the United passengers in Louisville who would have not had a flight crew in the morning, had this crew not gotten there.

    Again, the guy dragged off the plane was an idiot.

    Parent

    Beating up a paying customer and dragging him (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:31:34 PM EST
    What about the United passengers in Louisville who would have not had a flight crew in the morning, had this crew not gotten there.

    down the aisle was not the only option United had.
    If they needed a crew in Louisville the next morning, they could have flown their crew on a different airline. They could have flown the crew to Cincinnati and then bussed them over to Louisville.
    Another option, for the total cost of the $800 offer plus overnight hotel and flight the next day for 4 passengers, United could have chartered a flight to Louisville for the four crew members.
    Yet another option, they could have hired a private car/shuttle to drive the crew members to Louisville. It is approx a 5 hour drive from Chicago to Louisville.

    Most people flying on a Sunday evening are trying to get home so they can get to work Monday morning. It is upon United to make sure they manage their scheduling to get their crew members where they need to be without resorting to brutalizing their customers.

    United fu*ked up and their CEO made it worse with his "re-accomodation" statement. I hope that poor guy takes them to the cleaners.

    Parent

    i watched three times (none / 0) (#36)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:46:37 PM EST
    And what about the screaming woman. What's her story?

    what screaming woman? the woman who says, "oh my god! what are you doing?" seems reasonable to me.

    isnt you criticism simply "he didnt behave the way i feel a proper gentleman should"?

    Parent

    I tend to agree (none / 0) (#39)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 12:13:01 AM EST
    I have sympathy for him up to a certain point but then he just looks crazy.  Maybe he's mentally ill? Maybe it's just the stress of a very strange situation?

    Speak up if you would refuse to get off a plane in this situation. Show your true colors.
     
    I could see myself being stubborn for a while but probably not to the point where police/security is called and certainty not passed when they show up.  Not only did he risk his safety but the safety of others nearby.  

    Parent
    Such a soft hearted guy (none / 0) (#64)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 11:30:34 AM EST
    I have sympathy for him up to a certain point but then he just looks crazy.  Maybe he's mentally ill?

    There you go again, waiting for all the facts to come in before deciding that "maybe he was mentally ill."  Dude is a 69 y.o. physician, his wife is a physician, all their children are physicians.  Clearly the dregs of society.

    I would like to know how egregious a beating by police, and how wholesome the victim would have to be, before you disapproved.

    Multiple news outlets describe the event as a "public relations disaster."  McBain thinks it's some sort of triumph, even though United stock plummeted on the news.

    Parent

    The flight number was 3411 (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:33:05 AM EST
    What about the United passengers in Louisville who would have not had a flight crew in the morning, had this crew not gotten there.

    The first UAL morning departure flight is Newark at 6:55 followed by Chicago at 7:30, Houston at 8:05, Denver at 9:30, Chicago at 10:25...

    The 10:25 flight shows 3 CodeShares so it may have had a bunch of high priced international passengers, a good reason to be sure there's a crew there...if that was the flight that needed them.

    UAL 3411 was scheduled to depart at 5:40PM. Were there later flights that the UAL crew, that supposedly needed to be there for could have taken?

    SW had a 9:50PM from Midway, about an hour drive from Ohare. There was plenty of time.

    American had an Ohare departure at 6:40PM.

    United had a flight, 4771, that landed at 11:22PM from Ohare.

    Did none of these have empty seats that the UAL crew could have taken?

    United knows how many seats its airplanes have. They also knew that they needed to get 4 UAL flight crew to Louisville. They should have resolved the overbooking prior to boarding.

    Somebody screwed the pooch. Badly.

    Parent

    I have accorded a 5 (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:53:12 PM EST
    to Jim, for showing just how easily United could have reaccommodated its crew to Louisville.

    That's how bad United has handled this: It has me  applauding Jim.

    Parent

    I would refuse to leave. (none / 0) (#106)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:23:46 PM EST
    That's what kind of passenger. If I absolutely had to be somewhere.

    Parent
    Just flew RT on United to/from Las Vegas. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 05:08:02 PM EST
    Good thing I was flying first class so as not to be dragged off the flight. Un-effing-believable. Will never, ever fly United again. The officer who dragged him off the plane has been placed on leave . "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department." This is law enforcement overreach to the nth degree. Though I'm sure McBain can find numerous reasons why it was OK for this man (a doctor) to be dragged off this plane. To make room for United employees no less. They removed paying customers to fly employees! These cops should have gone back to the airlines and asked that they find another passenger or upped the ante on the offer to re-book flights. No paying customer should ever, ever be dragged off a plane like that simply for wanting to get home on time. But that is the culture of law enforcement in this country. The man dared to refuse to bow to that cops "authoriteh". They do not know how resolve conflict without violence. Police will introduce violence to a nonviolent situation every time. Never, ever call the police in the United States. You are only asking for trouble and violence. Sadly this a dangerous country, not because of brown people or refugees, but rather gang members in blue with guns and badges.

    Can't say that I'll never fly United Airlines, ... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 06:08:46 PM EST
    ... because it's our largest air carrier out here in the islands, and offers the only nonstop flights between the U.S. mainland and Hilo. In fact, United and Hawaiian Airlines are the only air carriers flying to Hilo. And I don't want to have to drive two hours across the island to Kona Airport for the sake of greater airline choice, when Hilo Airport is only 10-12 minutes away from home.

    That said, United Airlines is garnering the type of publicity that most companies would otherwise do their level best to avoid, for inexplicably allowing its own immediate crew deployment needs to take precedence over the contractual obligation it owed to its passengers once they had purchased their tickets.

    That four of its employees needed to be in Louisville the following morning was entirely the airline's issue. It should never have been re-posed as a problem for its passengers, as if many of them didn't also have someplace to be the next day.

    United will likely pay through the nose to settle with the doctor who was roughly manhandled by Chicago Transit Authority police for his temerity in refusing to give up the seat he had paid for.

    Of far more importance will be the potential long-term damage to the company's reputation relative to lost consumer confidence and corresponding customer revenues for this appalling display of corporate arrogance, indifference and incompetence.

    Shame on United Airlines.

    Parent

    I get it. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 08:02:18 PM EST
    But it's easy for me. I fly maybe once every two years due to my distaste for the entire airport experience these days. I'll drive anything within around 1400 miles. Plus I have Dulles, BWI or Washington National to choose from. PHL in a pinch but that's like a two hour drive. But there is decent train service all the from south central PA right to the Philly airport.


    Parent
    One of the more unfortunate aspects ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 02:56:18 AM EST
    ... of living in an island state in the middle of the Pacific is our near-total dependence on air service, even for intrastate travel. Our surrounding waters are simply too rough for reliable ferry service to work, since the ships tend to not perform very well in 30 to 40-ft. seas.

    Parent
    i believe you may be mistaken (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:54:41 PM EST
    i dont believe aviation security officers are licensed law enforcement officers. more like "mall cops" i believe.

    Parent
    Facts > "beliefs" every time (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 10:30:32 PM EST
    Of the 13 officers, 10 graduated from the Chicago Police Academy today and three are already state-certified law enforcement officers. Eight of the officers have served overseas in hostile fire zones and one served as a police advisor and trainer in Iraq.

    Link

    Parent

    Wrong. Again. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 10:33:44 PM EST
    They are Chicago PD. Aviation unit.

    Parent
    William Jennings Bryan.. (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 08:59:30 PM EST
    the last anti-war American fundamentalist christian?

    netflix (none / 0) (#20)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:44:54 PM EST
    has removed the 5-star rating system. they made it impossible to weed out the 3-star and below stinker movies and tv shows (on purpose i believe).

    the thumbs up/down rating system is worthless because there is no subtly and the categories are so broad. i watched The OA because it was about a kidnap victim but because it is in the sci fi category... i now i get absolutte garbage star trek and japanese anime recommended for me. another example, i love the dramas Talulah, About Scout, and The Great Gilly Hopkins... i now get young teen comedy tv shows recommended for me. no subtly.

    if they want to be helpfull, they could offer a "dont show me cartoons or anime" option.

    I don't quite get the 92% match (none / 0) (#23)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 09:59:51 PM EST
    they say I have with a film.  Does that mean it's 92% like others I've watched or I have a 92% chance of enjoying it?

    I liked the OA for the most part.  Didn't care for the ending but at least it was doing something a little different.

    As I said before, I think TV shows are in a bubble about to burst.  Too many shows being offered, too many people binging.  Movies are definitely making a comeback in my household.

    I watched The Discovery with Robert Redford the other night. Not great but if you liked the OA, you'll probably find it worthwhile.  

    Parent

    i agree (none / 0) (#27)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 10:38:00 PM EST
    i liked every episode of The OA; waiting for the ending to reveal the truth.

    for example:

    • was it all a fantasy on her part because the reality of what she experienced as a kidnap victim was even more horrific?
    • was it all just her schizophrenia and none of it actually happened?

    the ending explained nothing. i cant recommend the series because of that.

    (i read the 92% match is supposed to be like a dating app. whatever that means.)

    Parent

    I think she made up most of it (none / 0) (#31)
    by McBain on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:09:33 PM EST
    but we're supposed to be OK with that because the team came together in the end when needed with those crazy yoga moves. But who knows.

    Parent
    i believe the correct term is (none / 0) (#29)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 10:56:34 PM EST
    commissioned. i dont believe they are commissioned police officers.

    What does commissioned mean when referring to a police officer?
    An officer's commission is the authority granted to them by the jurisdiction in which they are authorized to act as a law enforcement officer.
    if somebody can find different (none / 0) (#32)
    by linea on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:15:54 PM EST
    please post it.

    im not getting a lot of information on my google searches... but the men in the video were wearing bluejeans and are prohibited from carrying guns.

    Parent

    Wearing blue jeans ... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:40:08 AM EST
    ... doesn't make you a "mall cop", any more than wearing a uniform makes a security guard a real cop.  The subject of whether the Airport police should be permitted to use guns is being debated, but they are real police officers:

    The aviation police officers are all certified law enforcement officers in the state of Illinois. Many work in suburban police departments or are military veterans.


    Parent
    Tesla now has a larger market cap than GM (none / 0) (#37)
    by Green26 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 at 11:50:34 PM EST
    Both over $50 billion. Tesla now has the largest market cap of any US car company.

    Tesla's market cap is now $102,000 for every car it intends to make in 2017, or $667,000 per car sold in 2016. GM's market cap is  $5,000 for every car it sold in 2016.

    Obviously, the value is on Tesla's future not it's past.

    linea, the Chicago Polie Dept. announced ... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 03:06:23 AM EST
    ... tonight that the officer who roughed up the passenger has been placed on administrative leave. He is a bona fide policeman. Given all the security in place at a major international gateway like O'Hare International Airport, why would the City of Chicago deploy the equivalent of mall cops there? In fact, Chicago PD assigns nearly 300 police officers to both O'Hare and Midway Airports on any given day. Most, but not all, are unarmed when inside the airport security zone.

    ok, im wrong (none / 0) (#112)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:33:23 PM EST
    the aviation security officers are "real police" who wear bluejeans, are not allowed to carry guns on or off duty, have authority restricted to the airport property, are expected to contact chicago police to handle a recalcitrant or unruly passenger, and to hide in the case of an active shooter.

    Parent
    not meant as snarky (none / 0) (#120)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 08:40:51 PM EST
    that seems to be the actual case.

    Parent
    I won't disagree with you there. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:55:53 PM EST
    Most major airports prefer that the police inside the security areas remain non-descript, so as to not unnecessarily alarm passengers.

    Parent
    they are not chicago police (none / 0) (#139)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:52:11 AM EST
    they are security officers hired by the Chicago Department of Aviation (CDA) which does not use government funds.

    Here's the job description for security officer.

    Parent

    You may have missed the words (none / 0) (#160)
    by Towanda on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 04:20:53 PM EST
    Chicago Police Department in your linked info.

    They are hired and vetted by the police department in Chicago. And in Chicago, they wear parkas that say, in big and bold letters, POLICE.

    And as noted by another poster, the Chicago Police Department issued a press release stating that it had put one of the officers on leave.  

    That sure suggest that he was Chicago police.

    (In my big city, too, there are several sorts of officers, at several facilities, including the airport, who are . . . police.  They are in the union.  They get the pension.  Etc.

    Parent

    United (none / 0) (#57)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 09:15:46 AM EST
    "Overbooked" may be the wrong word.  In every overbooking experience I have been in the unlucky few do not get boarding passes. With seats assigned individually no more boarding passes than seats are issued. What happened here is the airline decided to remove seated passengers in order to have seats for it's employees.

    We only have the airlines word that the flight was overbooked. If the flight was 100% sold out (not overbooked) and the airline wanted to seat four of its employees, we would have the exact same outcome.

    The passenger in question was boarded (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 06:20:12 PM EST
    Boarding had already occurred. A seat had been assigned.

    Parent
    im reading (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by linea on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 07:15:46 PM EST
    before boarding the flight was overbooked by one. someone accepted the coupon and the rest of the paying customers boarded. then four non-paying non-booked employees needed seats. at this point the flight was full; not overbooked.

    Parent
    That seems to be legally correct (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:00:54 PM EST
    From what I have read and industry experts are on the news attesting. And United could have offered more for surrendered seats too. Blogger Atrios said that $2,000 would have easily accomplished 4 surrendered seats. An airline analyst also was stuck on the $2,000 number today and said that number is the usual number given dead-heading crew, Sunday night, and almost 24 hrs until the next flight. United lost $255 million today instead of $8,000 Sunday night.

    Who knows what they will pay out in lawsuits?


    Parent

    Brutalized passenger still is in hospital (none / 0) (#132)
    by Towanda on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:33:16 PM EST
    in Chicago, and reports are that he actually was knocked unconscious (as well as seriously concussed) by the CPD, when his head hit the armrest -- and some of this information is from a law firm that the family has hired . . . so United will pay out a lot in lawsuits.  

    And probably the CPD will be sued, too.  Mayor Rahm is working fast to try to look good, calling for a review of the city's -- that is, CPD's -- relationship with O'Hare.

    Parent

    I would not be surprised if surrounding (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM EST
    Passengers also sue for trauma. They seemed pretty traumatized today. Also, the other three passengers who deboarded were not properly processed. After the lottery they were supposed to receive letters outlining their rights before deciding to leave the plane. No letters were given to any of them.

    Parent
    A passenger on the flight (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:31:45 AM EST
    wHo  had to witness the brutalization of passenger Dr. Dao posted on FB that she has received -- without asking -- a letter from United promising a full refund.

    I hope it really is a refund and not a voucher.  I well recall a horrendous experience with United, for which I was handed a paltry voucher . . . toward another United flight, of course.  I don't fly enough often to use it.  So I had the satisfaction of handing it back to the crew member while loudly proclaiming, "you literally cannot pay me to fly United again."


    Parent

    comment with trash talk (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 12:43:48 AM EST
    about the passenger deleted. His past is irrelevant.

    Parent
    You betcha (none / 0) (#150)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 11:25:59 AM EST
    Overbooking had nothing to do with this episode. United should have hired a private jet to take its employees where they needed to go.

    Parent
    How many of your friends (none / 0) (#70)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:14:26 PM EST
    ...have done prison time?

    In my case, I don't even know.  A lot.

    ...have been murdered?

    Seven of mine that I can think of.  Three of those were the parents and the brother of the bass player in the band I worked for.  This was the most lurid crime in Mill Valley history.

    We had done the first night of two at the Nassau Coliseum, opening for the Grateful Dead, when Bill Graham came onstage during the sound check to deliver that news.

    Another victim was just a small child when her mother was my roommate's girlfriend.  She grew into a beautiful woman, got married, and was stalked and killed by her husband after the restraining orders did not stop him.

    Considering my past relationship (none / 0) (#194)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 07:44:50 PM EST
    with Harley Davidson motorcycles and some of the things that are part of that world, I can tell you that I have numerous friends who have done.

    Parent
    Interesting FL legal story (none / 0) (#71)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    Local states attorney Aramis Ayala suing Gov Scott. He removed a case from her jurisdiction after she said she would not seek the death penalty. Defendant is accused of killing a police officer. I hope Scott gets slapped down on this.

    In keeping with the conservative tradition (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2017 at 01:49:13 PM EST
    of being awestruck by any fellow conservative who can get over and get away with it, Floridians elected Scott governor after his company Columbia/HCA paid out the largest fraud settlement in U.S history.

    But, I guess as long as he makes a big public noise about using condemned prisoners for gator bait (in Jesus name), that's all folks down there care about.

    Parent

    Scott did the right thing. (none / 0) (#151)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 11:34:11 AM EST
    He should do the same for any prosecutor that refuses to seek life without parole.

    Parent
    i believe you are missing the details (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by linea on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 07:00:27 PM EST
    Scott did the right thing. (#151)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir

    He should do the same for any prosecutor that refuses to seek life without parole.

    not a prosecutor.

    state attorney aramis ayala is an elected official. she was elected as a democratic party candidate by her constituancy. the republican govenor removed her from cases, not because of malfeasance, but because the republican party and the democratic party have different views on the death penalty.

    clearly, the republican govenor is wrong.


    Parent

    Try a little reading comprehension. (none / 0) (#155)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 at 01:04:44 PM EST
    She refused to seek the death penalty.


    Parent
    Understood (none / 0) (#165)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:23:21 AM EST
    The point you missed is that Scott would be doing the right thing in removing a hypothetical prosecutor that refused to seek life without parole.

    Parent
    For blatantly ripping off (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 09:04:10 AM EST
    his tax paying fellow citizens like some feral pig at the public trough, the people of Florida would be doing the right thing by setting Scott adrift on a makeshift raft in the Gulf.

    Parent
    Unfortunately, the (majority of) people of Florida (none / 0) (#170)
    by vml68 on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 12:05:24 PM EST
    the people of Florida would be doing the right thing by setting Scott adrift on a makeshift raft in the Gulf.

    have not felt the need to do the right thing.

    Parent

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#171)
    by FlJoe on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 12:09:21 PM EST
    smeared with porcine blood to entice the sharks.

    Parent
    I take umbrage at that swipe... (none / 0) (#172)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 12:41:19 PM EST
    at the fine family of fine and upstanding porcines the world over.  Why not gator or manatee blood?

    Parent
    You make a great point (none / 0) (#181)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 08:38:16 PM EST
    Mista D.S.

    I've always been a firm believer that our porcine friends have been unfairly maligned, and most of the one's doing the maligning deserve to be.

    Parent

    Don Jr. mocked (none / 0) (#169)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 13, 2017 at 11:03:31 AM EST
    Duquesne University students who oppose a Chick-fil-A on campus, tweeting "won't have to tackle issues more stressful than a yummy chicken sandwich in their lives." The so called billionaire's son, who made it all on his own, is either insensitive or clueless to the reasons students may object to Dan Cathy's financial support for anti-gay groups.

    But, Don may have a point, it may be better to eat a "yummy chicken sandwich" at that chicken place than eat at the Mar-a-Lago's fancy restaurant that has been cited for serious sanitation violations by the Board of Health. (dangerous meat and food). But, apparently, the beautiful chocolate cake cuts the mustard--or catsup, as the case may be.

    Monday Open Thread | 193 comments (193 topical)

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