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Democrats Debate

The Democratic debate has begun. I tuned in just in time to hear Kamala Harris say for the 100th time, "I'm a prosecutor".

Corey Booker looks really, really tired.

What are your expectations for tonight?

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  • Display: Sort:
    I was thinking (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 06:59:59 PM EST
    They all look tired

    Geez, I was tired! (none / 0) (#44)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:35:26 PM EST
    I love electoral politics.

    But three hour debates?  No thank you.

    Even with twelve people, I'd seen enough done two hours.  Was getting fatigued at two and a half hours. And by three I was downright punchy.

    Three hours is a good length for an epic movie or an opera.  But it's just too long for a debate.

    Parent

    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#120)
    by jmacWA on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 05:50:25 AM EST
    Suggestion for Uncle Joe (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:00:49 PM EST
    Retire the "like a drum" line.  

    Like whipped cream? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:17:25 PM EST
    Like a bowl of scrambled eggs? Like a chocolate malted?

    Parent
    Like a rented mule (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:20:41 PM EST
    Or a red headed step child.

    Parent
    PETA and ... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 02:18:10 PM EST
    Russet Lodge might object to those.

    Parent
    The line still gets ... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:31:00 PM EST
    a big audience response.

    So, maybe it will need retiring at some point.  But not yet.

    Parent

    We will agree (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 02:22:16 PM EST
    To disagree

    Parent
    Elizabeth Warren (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:49:05 PM EST
    is being really disciplined and not letting others knock her off her game.

    She has become much better at this.

    Pete is good tho (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:01:51 PM EST
    And I still don't understand why Amy isn't doing better.

    IMO she is so much better than Harris.

    Parent

    Amy needs (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:18:59 PM EST
    for Biden to collapse to get traction. He's hogging the middle lane. Biden's age may end up doing him in especially after Bernie had a heart attack.

    Parent
    Maybe so (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:24:05 PM EST
    Any is so darn good....and she should do well among the more pragmatic.

    Parent
    Personally (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:36:51 PM EST
    I think there is no one better than a prosecutor to go up against a criminal enterprise like the GOP.

    Parent
    Amy is so much better than Biden (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by CST on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 02:06:29 PM EST
    I am not completely sold on Warren but as long as Biden and Sanders stay in the mix it seems like there is no air for anyone else.

    I personally would probably not pick Amy first, but at least I can respect her.

    Parent

    Am I the only one (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:07:50 PM EST
    Who is put off by Warren saying "let's be clear about this" and then dodging and obfuscating what is just a simple arithmetic problem: the amount of premiums and co-pays you won't have anymore is a higher number than the amount that taxes will go up, so in the end you pay much less for health care coverage. Why can't she just say that?

    Parent
    No, (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:14:00 PM EST
    there were a lot of people on twitter who are sick of not hearing how much it is going to cost people and the deflections.

    Parent
    I see her point (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:11:08 PM EST
    The headline would be

    WARREN SAYS SHE WILL RAISE YOUR TAXES

    I but agree it's kind of grating

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#17)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:14:50 PM EST
    but she doesn't care.

    She has learned from others (perhaps their bad habits) on how to not give others attack lines against you....

    Hell, why answer the question anyway?

    Parent

    Warren's (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:17:06 PM EST
    problem is the idea of MFA sounds great. The reality and the disruption that it will take for it to happen doesn't sell that well with voters.

    Parent
    M4A (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 07:07:15 AM EST
    Even the idea of it would get nowhere is "raising taxes" became the meme. Beside, you don't need to raise taxes...just readjust our national priorities. Pay as you go is a GOP thing, it doesn't have to work that way.

    Parent
    Just once (none / 0) (#50)
    by CST on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 02:09:36 PM EST
    I'd love to see someone answer "we won't", to the question of "how will you pay for it?".  Doesn't even have to be M4A.  Literally any program.   We haven't had a balanced budget in decades, why start now?

    Parent
    Clearly Warren (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:03:57 PM EST
    Came expecting the challenges

    Parent
    Mayor Pete ... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:28:33 PM EST
    got lots of praise.  But I'll have to take that as read.

    His Midwestern drone, literally puts me to sleep.  And his continual thing about "imagining the day after Trump" didn't work for me at all. Except for making it clear why I wouldn't want another "on the job training" President.

    But he excites segments of the donor base.  And other parts of the party. And that's always a good thing.

    I think he'll become more interesting after he runs for Governor of Indiana and loses.  And then runs again and wins.  Then he might be ready for the big job.

    Maybe it's just some version (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 06:41:55 PM EST
    Of a conditioned aversion reaction but I can't help being very suspicious of the "good coverage".  Because you are correct.  He's getting it.  MSNBC particularly really seems to be pushing him.  Really pushing Pete's numbers in Iowa.  Where, surprise, he's 4th.  Like everywhere else.  Just a closer 4th.

    I can't help thinking they are building him up because it would be so tragic and exciting to tear him down.

    I like him apparently more than you but I agree he is not ready.  I would like him to run for the senate.

    Parent

    Debates aren't important ... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 06:10:46 PM EST
    this cycle.

    By midday, MSNBC had basically dropped all coverage of last night's debate.  

    Previous debates only had limited effect on polling.

    And, culturally, the impact has been close to zero. No real viral moments. A few blips on the radar. A couple of briefly effective memes. Not much more.

    Maybe this is deserved. Maybe not. But it seems to be a fact of this cycle.

    When they start (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 06:15:40 PM EST
    Having real debates with a small number of actual contenders it will matter more.

    Parent
    It sure (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 06:51:53 PM EST
    seems that way and I'm not sure presidential debates are going to matter much in 2020. Of course, there's also 24/7 drama coming from the WH so that could be a reason the debates are not getting much attention either. I guess dry policy debates can't compete with Russian money laundering stories.

    Parent
    Did (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 11:24:37 AM EST
    Hillary(more or less) call out Tulsi Gabbard as a Russian stooge?
    accusing Russia of grooming a current 2020 Democrat, specifically a woman, to launch a third party run for the White House - to ensure Donald Trump wins re-election.
    No names were mentioned, but...

    It's incredibly telling (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by CST on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 11:29:04 AM EST
    That no names were mentioned and everyone knows who she's talking about.

    Parent
    I thought Tulsi's attempt at the debate to rebut (none / 0) (#73)
    by Peter G on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 11:56:57 AM EST
    the NYT assessment of her as a Russian asset served only to underline the accusation without offering any reason to doubt it. She needed a pointed refutation at her fingertips, and she didn't have one.

    Parent
    And Nina Turner (none / 0) (#78)
    by smott on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 11:24:33 AM EST
    Is expressing support for Tulsi this AM. Amazing.

    I just can't fathom the crush the Sanders camp and their supporters have for this obvious stooge.
    She went on the White Power Hour w Carlson FFS. And Nina loves her.

    Does Bernie think Turner helps him ?

    Parent

    Bernie (none / 0) (#80)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 07:14:01 PM EST
    Has the worst campaign and worst surrogates imaginable.If he ran in any other state in the union he would have long ago been roadkill.

    Parent
    Joe (none / 0) (#89)
    by NoSides on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    McCarthy lives.

    Parent
    linea! (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 11:50:05 AM EST
    I thought you were scared away.

    Welcome.  We really need some comic relief

    Parent

    Thanks for the welcome... (none / 0) (#93)
    by NoSides on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 01:31:31 PM EST
    But, I must say, Clinton's attacking the patriotism of Gabbard is not the stuff of comedy.

    Parent
    The irony (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 07:41:15 PM EST
    is Hillary just said someone and Tulsi raised her hand proclaiming it was her. Tulsi always carries water for the Kremlin. She has denied that the Russians did anything in 2016 or she deflects to how it is not important. Sorry to tell you but Tulsi has been smearing feces all over herself declaring fealty to Putin. All Hillary did was get people to realize that hey, it could happen in 2020 like it did in 2016.

    Parent
    Hillary was shrewd (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 04:19:03 PM EST
    She will be unpopular in many circles for making this claim against Gabbard.  But she is not running and can stand to have a little heat and disapproval.

    But, she did bring to light a very interesting situation with Gabbard, and if Hillary's foray deters Gabbard from a third party run, she would have been quite effective.

    Parent

    Raise (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 05:29:46 PM EST
    your hand if you knew Tulsi was a snake before Hillary pointed it out.

    I came to that conclusion several years ago.

    Parent

    That's true (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 07:25:35 PM EST
    I think she did publicize the fact more broadly....

    Parent
    Why (none / 0) (#117)
    by NoSides on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 10:38:13 PM EST
    do you call Gabbard a snake?

    Parent
    The (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 05:15:00 AM EST
    company that she keeps
    The Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria has had a quiet but well-funded lobbying effort in Washington since well before he began murdering his own people. But that influence campaign's clearest triumph came only this month, when it succeeded in bringing Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) to Damascus and having her parrot Assad's propaganda on her return.

    Hate the war but love the war criminal... or something.

    Parent

    Are you (none / 0) (#121)
    by NoSides on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 06:16:47 AM EST
    seriously calling Gabbard a war criminal?

    Parent
    Get (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 06:19:40 AM EST
    a clue, I'm calling her an apologist for a war criminal. Try defending that.

    Parent
    I read your (none / 0) (#123)
    by NoSides on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 07:25:14 AM EST
    post incorrectly.

    You are condemning her as someone who "loves Assad".

    In an interview with Anderson Cooper, when asked whether she thought that Assad was a "torturer and murderer", she replied, "I don't dispute that".

    Her main thrust is that the US should no longer be engaged in wars of regime change. To that end, she is willing to meet with heads of State, even the likes of a "torturer and murderer" to the end of either ending the conflict, or at the least, getting us out of it.

    This is an attractive position to me.
    I think we have been doing these wars with the goal of removing leaders in power for decades. We have slaughtered and displaced millions. We have lost billions and trillions of dollars in these endeavors. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya... the list goes on...with Iran moving back and forth to the front burner...Venezuela...

    If there is another candidate who is as expressive on the issue of ending our thankless involvement in these wars, I would be happy - thrilled - to consider voting for that person.

    Having said all that, I think that Clinton's reference to Gabbard as a "Russian asset" is beyond the pale - especially considering her military record. We don't need that kind of McCarthyite lingo bandied about during a Democratic primary.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 07:59:43 AM EST
    "especially considering her military record." I guess that lets Benedict Arnold off the hook then.

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#126)
    by NoSides on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    you wish to continue our policy of intervening and killing people, so be it.

    If your only response to my answer to you, which was a considered one, is to compare Gabbard to Benedict Arnold, there is obviously no desire on your part to have an honest dialogue on this subject.

    Agendas tend to get in the way of discourse.

    Parent

    How is the (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 11:24:13 AM EST
    diet going?

    Parent
    All the More Power to You (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by RickyJim on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 12:37:31 PM EST
    The Facebook generated desire to get as many "Likes" as you can accumulate is common on this board.  I am glad that, like me, you raise points you believe to be valid regardless of how many here disagree.  And when, as happens commonly, I get a "1", I think I have accomplished something, especially if it accompanied by an ad hominum.  

    Parent
    If this is true, then I have been remiss. (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by vml68 on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    The Facebook generated desire to get as many "Likes" as you can accumulate is common on this board.

    My apologies to my fellow posters for not uprating you everytime. I only rate when I am using my desktop. For some reason my laptop, tablet, etc.,  mess up the ratings, so I've given up rating when using those devices.

    I am glad that, like me, you raise points you believe to be valid regardless of how many here disagree.

    Yes, I've noticed this board is full of shrinking violets, all afraid to voice their opinion, unless they agree with everything being said :-/!

    Parent

    Does giving you a 5 (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 03:04:17 PM EST
    By totally missing no the point count?

    Parent
    Don't (none / 0) (#132)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 06:01:45 PM EST
    you know, only posts from stable geniuses with magnificent wisdom deserve fives?

    Parent
    Do you believe having a military record gives (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by vml68 on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 12:53:43 PM EST
    Having said all that, I think that Clinton's reference to Gabbard as a "Russian asset" is beyond the pale - especially considering her military record.

    a person immunity from having their actions scrutinized/criticized? If so, I hope you've never questioned Lindsey Graham's loyalties.

    Do you think they should be given a lifetime pass, "Get out of jail" free card, for anything unsavory they might be involved in? If so, I'm sure Mike Flynn will be happy to hear that.

    Just because a person has served in the armed forces does not mean they have to be put on a pedestal.

    Parent

    I'm waiting (none / 0) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 08:24:31 PM EST
    for all the Tulsi apologists to start explaining how Michael Flynn isn't guilty because of his being a general. This is the same excuse Trump used when Flynn was indicted.

    Parent
    I don't believe (none / 0) (#108)
    by NoSides on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 05:13:07 PM EST
    that Hillary is not running.

    She just published a new book, and is on tour with it.

    Her maligning of Gabbard's patriotism is, in my opinion, nothing but an attempt to position herself as the centrist among the candidates - a position which appears to be opening as Biden's fortunes appear to be diminishing.

    Parent

    Oh my god (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 05:17:46 PM EST
    Hi, Linea (none / 0) (#113)
    by leap on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 08:33:03 PM EST
    Are you hankering for a fresh new, delectable recipe? Sure sounds like it!

    Parent
    I am (none / 0) (#114)
    by NoSides on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 09:30:23 PM EST
    expressing an opinion.

    That is usually what people do.

    If you wish to disagree, for example if you don't think that Clinton is considering being available as the go-to candidate when others falter - that is your right. Just say so.

    If you think that Gabbard, who served a 12 month tour in Iraq and is currently in the National Guard, should have her patriotism put in question by Hillary Clinton, say so. Others on this site seem quite content to do so.

    I like Gabbard's opinions about ending the wars in which we are engaged. It would have been interesting if Warren, when asked how she would pay for Medicare For All, had replied, let's bring our troops home and spend the billions and trillions on healthcare. I would have liked to see that and the reactions to it from the media and from her fellow members of the Democratic Party.

    Instead - Gabbard is being called a Commie - by - of all people, liberal Democrats - who I would have thought would be fed-up with Republican G.W. Bush's wars. I know I am.

    Parent

    In my opinion (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 09:39:23 PM EST
    you are linea....Aren't you banned?

    And, here you go again.....

    And, I will toot my own horn, here; I called it awhile ago....Do I get an award or something for it?

    Parent

    Toot (none / 0) (#116)
    by NoSides on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 10:36:50 PM EST
    your horn about what?


    Parent
    Identifying you (none / 0) (#135)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 23, 2019 at 12:29:32 PM EST
    I (none / 0) (#99)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 07:29:02 AM EST
    don't believe Hillary was joking.

    If you want to talk about "funny stuff" try this  

    Deep in the Washington state wilderness, a highly paid political consultant is raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars from U.S. Rep. Tulsi Gabbard's presidential campaign.

    It's the kind of money usually spent on national name-brand political operatives with bustling offices and large staffs based in Washington, D.C., or New York.

    But few people in the business have ever heard of Kris Robinson, the owner of Northwest Digital, a web design and internet marketing firm working for Gabbard's campaign. His company address is a P.O. box here in Stehekin, a remote village in the Northern Cascades mountains that's famous for its isolation.



    Parent
    Oh, it gets (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 09:32:07 AM EST
    even better. Tulsi is now using Tucker Carlson to defend herself. She's not only whining but digging a bigger hole for herself.

    Parent
    I want one of these (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 05:19:39 PM EST
    Warren has become pretty good at this (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:21:09 PM EST


    It's (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:25:23 PM EST
    hard to knock her off her talking points, that's for sure.

    Parent
    Hmm, that is one (none / 0) (#9)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:50:26 PM EST
    way to put it.....

    I agree with Mayor Pete and Klobuchar on the substance....but Warren knows how to keep control of the narrative

    Parent

    Generally Warren was fine ... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:22:42 PM EST
    but her answers on funding of M4A just didn't work.  She just sounded like a facile politician.

    Also, I know that moment when she "thanked Obama" went over like a lead balloon with a lot of Dem activists.  Even those among them who aren't supporting Biden don't like to see him hit with cheap shots.

    And that was the cheapest of cheap shots.  And truly beneath a classy person like Warren.

    Audience reaction also showed she struggles to read a room.  I think that comes from her years as teacher.  When winning over the room is rarely the point.

    But, that said, if she becomes the nominee, I think she'll have her challenges, as all candidates do, but I don't think she have any real problem beating Trump.

    Parent

    Maybe I'm just a Masshole (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by CST on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:33:03 PM EST
    But I am so done with the Bidens of the world, and I would not have shown that level of restraint.

    If that's a "cheap shot", what do you call the rampant paternalism of Biden?

    This is not the first time or issue for him either, and I'm really sick of giving him, and people like him, a pass.

    This was slightly less offensive than when he blamed black parents for systemic racism, I'll give you that.

    Parent

    Not a good moment for Warren (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 01:03:24 PM EST
    She could have been gracious....As was Biden...

    She has struck me as a little petty.....going back to her demeanor on the Senate Floor during the GOP effort to repeal Obamacare.  She was jumping around cheering when McCain voted against the GOP effort.  It was a little classless. I remember Schumer trying to avoid the spiking the football moment....

    As a lawyer, you don't cheer in Court when you win....And she is a lawyer....Just my take.

    Parent

    Shouting and waving your finger (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by CST on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 01:50:08 PM EST
    Is showing grace and class?

    I need more whiskey for this $hit.

    Biden has been fighting against consumer protections in one form or another for most of his Senate career.

    Parent

    That would be because (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 03:14:34 PM EST
    of all the credit card issuers headquartered in Delaware.

    Parent
    Are you serious? (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by vml68 on Thu Oct 17, 2019 at 09:46:23 AM EST
    Not a good moment for Warren

    After the way he practically shouted and pointed his finger at her, while trying to take as much credit as possible for the bill passing, he is lucky she didn't "beat him like a drum".
    She deserves credit for the restraint she showed and kudos for putting him in his place without getting confrontational.

    I have never been a fan of Joe Biden and am liking him even less everyday.

    Parent

    Yes, I am serious (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 17, 2019 at 08:30:35 PM EST
    I am definitely not in the Progressive camp here. I am finding the Left wing increasingly annoying. I say I like Klobuchar and get "whitebread" thrown back at me.

    And, I am no doubt influenced by the leftists I run into offline.  Not good.

    Parent

    Biden was not gracious (none / 0) (#79)
    by smott on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 11:26:24 AM EST
    That was a pretty uncivil man-mansplain there, plus taking credit for her work.
    A LOT of women will trigger with that stuff.

    Parent
    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 03:37:08 PM EST
    It did not come across as a cheap shot on the part of Senator Warren.  Rather, Biden's comments seemed like obsequiousness masquerading as complaisance.

     Mr. Biden attempted to take a share, if not a lion's share,  of the CFPB, intended to keep banks from cheating people and a part of Dodd-Frank reforms. Barack Obama was the president at the time, and she appropriately named him as well as gave unnamed credit to the many involved.

    Parent

    I hear where you're ... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 12:47:51 PM EST
    coming from.  And you're not wrong.

    But I also know that there's a huge segment of the Democratic activist base that didn't like that moment. At all.

    This is the same segment, and it's a large segment, who would never give Gillibrand a hearing because of how she handled Franken.

    Strangely, I mostly hear about these things from women.  But that may simply be a result of the fact that so many of the strong Dem activists are women.

    And though you, and many others, may be sick of Biden.  And the press has wanted to write him off all year.  The strategy of his campaign, and the demography of his support, still gives him a better than even money chance of winning the nomination.

    Parent

    I would (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 03:24:08 PM EST
    say there is two groups here and there is some overlap. There were plenty of people who were sick at the treatment of Gillibrand and sick of the paternalism of Biden of which I am one. For some reason the far left women seem to be willing to put up with more from men than women. I just figure it is the same mindset that that conservative women have.

    Parent
    Steyer (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 07:37:20 PM EST
    was pretty good.

    Mod: as the only billionaire here (snicker), what do you think of wealth inequality,

    Steyer: I agree with Bernie, eat the billionaires!
    (I paraphrase)

    Yang just (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:13:03 PM EST
    ended the Wealth tax as a viable idea--it failed in Europe.....

    Why couldn't the others say this?

    Yeah, and then he advocated (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:25:56 PM EST
    the VAT, which is a totally regressive proposal that hits ordinary consumers and benefits the superrich. Did the wealth tax fail because of evasion? If so, that doesn't move me.

    Parent
    Beto (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:14:14 PM EST
    Is just past his sell by date

    Pete (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:18:28 PM EST
    I don't need lessons from you on courage

    Parent
    Who knows (none / 0) (#23)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:26:08 PM EST
    maybe we can have a 14 or more person debate next time and bring back De Blasio et. al.

    Parent
    I'm with Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#25)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:36:55 PM EST
    "I'm a former prosecutor" is getting worn. Harris sounds like a DA every time she opens her mouth. At this point, I'll take Uncle Joe over Kamala Harris.

    This debate is making me like ALL of them less. I'm beginning to hope someone else signs up. Mrs. Obama has great numbers in NH :).

    Who can (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:38:38 PM EST
    even decide? There's just too many people but this is really on Tom Perez. There had to be a better way to handle this many candidates or to at least talk some of them out of running or encourage them to drop out. I mean seriously Gillibrand is out but Deblasio is still running for President?

    Parent
    This debate should (none / 0) (#28)
    by MKS on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:46:49 PM EST
    have only had six participants....

    Parent
    Actually the only ones I am liking more (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:46:20 PM EST
    tonight are Castro and Booker. Which does not mean I think either of them would be the best candidate.

    Parent
    What's the Case Against Klobuchar? (none / 0) (#29)
    by RickyJim on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 08:56:11 PM EST
    Only 59 years old, moderate and non abrasive.

    Parent
    I like her a lot (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 09:13:01 PM EST
    But she's much less progressive than I would prefer.

    Parent
    a "5" rating is best, right? (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 07:10:14 AM EST
    15 years ago (none / 0) (#31)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 09:27:04 PM EST
    she could have been mistaken for NE Republican. I agree with Peter. Too centrist, too safe, too white bread.

    Parent
    But if Biden Withdraws, (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by RickyJim on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 09:22:04 AM EST
    could she say that with her centrist positions, she is the best bet for beating Trump?

    Parent
    Hmm, I guess, then, (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 11:11:50 AM EST
    that's me too.

    Parent
    Ironically (none / 0) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 11:15:28 AM EST
    25 years ago Warren WAS a NE Republican

    Parent
    Interesting. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Oct 23, 2019 at 10:35:38 AM EST
    I did not know that.


    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#136)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 23, 2019 at 06:32:24 PM EST
    it is one of the reasons why she has had so many problems with POC voters. She wasn't even just a NE Republican but an Oklahoma and Texas Republican as well.

    Parent
    My take. (none / 0) (#32)
    by KeysDan on Tue Oct 15, 2019 at 11:17:35 PM EST
    The debate proceeded as well, and probably, better than expected for a group of 12 candidates. Of course, Elizabeth Warren received the brunt of it all, particularly by the lower tier candidates. However, I believe she did well, remaining measured and diplomatic even in the face of the needlessly combative stance toward her by Mayor Pete.  

    That answer to raising taxes on the middle class to support Medicare for All is obvious (total/shifting of coats v. benefits) but demanding quantitative impacts plays into the Republican meme of Democrats plans to increase taxes on the middle class.  Not to mention, the sound bites.  Senator Warren did not need Senator Klobuchar to imply that, unlike Bernie, she was not honest about her plan.  Senator Warren has, in my view, the potential to be the FDR for these times.

    Bernie was more energized that I expected after his recent cardiac infarction. However, I was concerned for his well-being throughout the debate. I held my breath when Steyer agreed on bad billionaires.

    This was Biden's best debate performance, to date. But, that is not to say that it was great. He tripped over his words, and, most worryingly, was his by-gone fantasy that things will not get done without Republican help, ignoring or forgetting, the Obama years, including ACA, or even Bill Clinton's tax increase without a single Republican vote.

    It was surprising that Tulsi was not called on her "regime change war", rather than the conflict starting as a civil uprising harshly put down by Assad, right off the bat.

    Beto was more reserved, but did not explain his weapon buy-back program very well.  Castro did not make the mistake of the last debate regarding Biden's mental acuity. That was left to the clumsy questioning of the moderator.

     Kamala Harris was OK, just OK, as was Booker.  A missed question of the moderators to Yang, was...why are you here? His dismissal of a wealth tax because of European experience is flawed.  As with European income tax, collection is difficult because of evasion. Hence, the sure-fire, but regressive VAT tax.

     Amy Klobuchar let us know, once again, that she is from the Midwest. And, she wins in Republican areas of Minnesota. She is Goldi-locks, not too right and not too left. Somewhere else--maybe where Biden is, should he drop out. A little charisma challenged, as well.

    Steyer was pretty good, but a cause of wonderment. Ego? Patriot? Not sure, but if the latter, he could be more effective by funding good Democratic candidates.

    The biggest disappointment of the debate was Mayor Pete. For me, he lost his biggest asset--calm, thoughtful, always says the right thing and in the right way. His passion for Trump's betrayal of the troops was a high point, but, thereafter, his combative manner seemed unnatural for him, even forced.  His Medicare for All (who want it) is based on his assumption that everyone loves their insurance (work/union).  He came across to me in the way he claimed Beto did---trying to stay relevant.  

    Observations of Andrew Yang (none / 0) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 04:56:41 PM EST
    have been restricted to his relatively brief utterances during the course of the primary debates. However, I had an opportunity to observe him further during an interview, last night, on the Rachel Maddow show.

    In summary, he makes a better impression when he did not have much time to speak.  Mr. Yang revealed his unfamiliarity with foreign affairs and was unable to explain or justify his debate statement (countered by Senator Klobuchar) that the US, as did Russia, interfered in another country's elections. When pressed, he narrowed our election meddling to this hemisphere.  

    Mr. Yang does have support from the tech people, and his cause celebre is a stipend to all of $1,000 per month to address problems due to automation.  As Paul Krugman notes, this is "an inadequate solution to an imaginary problem."

    Yes, automation is an issue, and has been since the invention of the player piano.  But, the problem is more moving factories to other countries, such as  China and Mexico to save a nickel or trade policies, as Senator Warren claimed.

     Mr. Yang has, apparently, abandoned his earlier signature issue, of banning male circumcision.   I think he is not ready for prime time.

    Parent

    I thought it odd (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 05:14:44 PM EST
    With everything that happened yesterday she spent half the show on him.  I didn't watch.  He has always annoyed me.

    Parent
    How about our Tulsi! (none / 0) (#33)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 02:18:26 AM EST
    "Regime change wars (click!) Regime change wars (click!) Regime change wars (click!) Regime change wars (click!) Regime change wars (click!) Regime change wars (click!) ..."

    The debate started out here at 2:00 p.m. HST. I eventually changed the channel and instead watched "SpongeBob SquarePants" with my grandson.

    I'm still votin' blue, no matter who.

    I didn't watch (none / 0) (#36)
    by CST on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 09:08:42 AM EST
    I'm done with the 12 person debates.

    Sounds like Warren took some hits and Biden continues to get a pass on his offensive crap.  So ready for the era of the Bidens to pass.

    That "Thank you" though...  I honestly don't love a lot of Warren's answers from last night (based off reporting) but she can deliver shade like it's a funeral for someone who sexually harrassed her.  I think she's put the toughness question to bed.  Now about that foreign policy...

    None of these ... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 01:43:52 PM EST
    candidates are on the level of a JFK, a Clinton or an Obama.

    But I hope Dems learn a valuable lesson this cycle, you don't need a JFK, a Clinton, or an Obama to win.

    The GOP has been nominating some of the worst candidates imaginable for generations. You could find better candidates by picking up random people from a drunk tank.  And they have won with such people.

    All of these are better candidates than anyone the GOP has chosen this side of TR.  But, sure, they aren't amazing rock stars.

    But you can win without a rock star.  You can even perform some of those rock star candidates without a rock star.

    THIS IS THE PROCESS THAT GAVE AMERICA DONALD TRUMP (none / 0) (#55)
    by ChiCity on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 03:26:38 PM EST
    AS PRESIDENT.
    There must be something tragically flawed in any process that allows a Trump-like person to win.

    The Democrats Center recovered and fought a bruising battle to regain the House. Do you see anything yet that leads you to believe this same debate process will not lead to Trump's 2nd term?


    What process would you recommend (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 03:42:13 PM EST
    And, not sure how much "The Democrats Center" had to do with retaking the house.

    Parent
    House of Representatives win by Center and Center- (none / 0) (#59)
    by ChiCity on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 04:55:32 PM EST
    Right Dems.

    It goes like this.

    We know there are 435 House members. Before the 2018 elections, Republicans controlled the House with a 235-193 majority (7 vacancies). The Democratic Party won control of the House of Representatives in the 2018 midterm elections. The Democrats gained a net total of 40+ seats from the total number of seats they had won in the 2016 elections.

    There are different ways of figuring the size of off-year average gain in the House of Representatives, but a modern number is considered around 30.  This is the largest Democratic off-year gain since November 1974, when Nixon resigned (August 9, 1974). This was larger than both 1982 and 2006.

    Progressives showed up to vote, bless their hearts, but few won races. Katie Hill in California's 25th Congressional District and Katie Porter in California's 45th Congressional District are all that come to mind. It was the Center and center-right Democratic candidates that beat the Republicans in head to head match-ups.


    Parent

    Thanks for the tutorial (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 05:04:02 PM EST
    IMO the most dangerous and misguided delusion that won't die is that we have to appeal to "the center"

    Those who believe this are like the last dinosaurs who have not figured out yet they are extinct.  They live in a long gone age of bi partisan politics.

    The Obama coalition was not the center.  There is no center.
    Impeachment is 51% for removal and 49% he did nothing wrong.  There is no center.

    We will win by giving our people a reason to vote.  And it won't be "getting back to normal"

    Parent

    The thing (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 05:16:33 PM EST
    is there never was an Obama coalition. It is the same Dukakis coalition from 30 years ago that has grown enough to win. However it's also a pouty unreliable voting coalition. Also those WWC voters that Bernie and Biden seem to be centering their campaign on are gone for good.

    Looks like a new one is forming. Some of those suburban voters that were called "swing voters" back in the 90 after voting D in the 90's and voting R for a while appear to finally be leaving the GOP for good. We also appear to be losing a chunk of African American male voters about 15%. So a new coalition is probably going to form for 2020 though we probably will not know exactly what it consists of until a while after the election.  

    Parent

    Except there was (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 05:22:38 PM EST

    For two consecutive presidential elections, the Democratic Party was carried to victory by a diverse cohort known as the "Obama Coalition" made up of African-Americans, Hispanics, women, independents, millennials and those with a college education. It was anticipated that those voters, while somewhat absent from mid-term elections, could forge a lasting majority that would continue delivering the White House to Democrats for years to come. That dream hit the hard wall of reality on Tuesday evening.

    Indeed while more people voted for Mrs. Clinton than Mr. Trump, she did not have enough voters in the states that she needed to win and the Electoral College afforded him a victory. So what happened?

    In a simplified explanation: they stayed home. In fact, a lot of people stayed home - voter turnout was the lowest it's been since 2000 for a presidential election. According to the Washington Post, Trump did not just get fewer votes than Clinton, he also "got fewer votes than Mitt Romney in 2012, fewer votes than john McCain in 2008 and fewer votes than George W. Bush in 2004."

    If it's Biden they will stay home again.

    Parent

    I am very optimistic. (none / 0) (#58)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 16, 2019 at 04:10:06 PM EST
    Democrats are proceeding along two tracks. (1) an impeachment process that is very likely to result in impeachment, but not necessarily removal (although not as long a shot as once thought), and (2) the primary process to identify a presidential candidate.  The outcomes of these two tracks will, soon merge and become one to become an integral part of the campaigns.

    Both tracks will be untidy at points, but like the two tracks, the Democrats will unite. The commonality is the acute awareness that Trump, and his Republican cohorts, are a danger to the very existence of the country, as set forth in the Constitution.

    The emergence of a corrupt and ignorant person like Trump is a confluence of several factors, such as Comey, Putin, Media enthrallment of Trump antics, long-term Republicanism, and voter suppression.

    Hillary Clinton was among the most qualified persons to be the Democratic standard bearer.  She faced obstacles known and unknown.  Many of the then unknowns are now known and can be accommodated to a greater extent.  Whomever is the Democratic nominee, he or she needs to recognize that an impeachment-wounded Trump and his thugs will try anything and everything.

    My optimism is grounded in  an assessment that the likely Democratic nominee as well as Democrats and thinking independents, realize the stakes and what it takes. Moreover, the election will hinge on voter enthusiasm and voter turnout. Trump is our friend in that regard.

    Parent

    Elijah Cummings has died (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 17, 2019 at 06:44:18 AM EST
    So Mitch recently announced (none / 0) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 18, 2019 at 08:08:00 AM EST
    That they should prepare for a speedy senate trial that would be finished by the end of the year.

    To which Nancy said, no, not really.  We will be done we we are done.  We will let you know.

    I wonder if the plan might be to make sure this runs long enough that the trial will happen next year AFTER primary season.  Giving senators the opportunity to vote without worrying about a primary.

    Which is around a March, I think.

    I love Jill Stein (none / 0) (#77)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 09:54:01 AM EST
    Is having her 5 minutes.

    Along with Tulse

    Just kidding about that whole G7 thing (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 09:21:54 PM EST
    Perfect. Still an impeachable offense to try, (none / 0) (#82)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 09:38:45 PM EST
    and bad PR, but no actual profit to Tr*mp, in the end.

    Parent
    I mentioned in another comment (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 10:07:14 PM EST
    My MAGA brother was not happy about this.  He must not have been alone.  

    Parent
    Be interesting to see (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 19, 2019 at 10:08:14 PM EST
    If he's back on board

    Parent
    WATCHMEN TONIGHT HBO (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 10:19:52 AM EST
    Sorry the open is overflowing and this is important.

    Event tv returns.

    The opening 10 minutes of HBO's new Watchmen series -- not a straight adaptation of the acclaimed 1986 graphic novel but a companion to it -- are a statement of purpose rarely seen on TV: "Here is what this show is," they say. "If you'd rather not watch this kind of show, we wanted to let you know up front."

    Watchmen is set in 2019, but these opening 10 minutes depict the Tulsa, Oklahoma, race massacre of 1921. The massacre was pure malevolent violence committed on Tulsa's "Black Wall Street," undertaken by white citizens who killed dozens and wounded even more (exact totals are unknown) while burning black property to the ground. It is widely considered one of the most shocking acts of racial violence in American history, and it's core to what Watchmen is saying about America today.

    You might also wonder, if you're aware of who's on the show's creative team, whether a group that boasts lots of black voices but is headed up by a white showrunner (Damon Lindelof) and white director (Nicole Kassell) is the right one to tell this particular story, and whether the genre they're using to tell it is the best one. You might wonder why the first episode, at least, seems to take a cavalier approach to real-world stories about white supremacists' relationship with police forces in the US.

    But even if you hold these concerns, I would say you should keep watching. Watchmen is a big and bold series, unlike any other TV show I've ever seen, and just when you think it's shown you all of its many faces, it reveals another one. It makes missteps here and there, but at its heart, it remains a story about examining the fraught state of the world today through the lens of superhero tropes, just as the original comic did.

    Then again, I would say that. I'm extremely white, and to watch a show like this, on some level, is low-risk for me. I think Watchmen handles its racial elements well, but you might disagree. And if you do, the show wants to make sure you know exactly what it's doing from the first.

    VOX

    I'm curious (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 11:25:38 AM EST
    Had any one here apart from the historians ever heard of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre?

    Because I had never heard of it.  

    That simple fact has increased my recent self medication.

    WIKI f'ing PEDIA

    Parent

    I am aware of it. (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 12:20:27 PM EST
    I remember reading about it years ago. Can't remember the context.

    Parent
    I heard (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 12:58:16 PM EST
    about it a few years ago maybe on social media or read it somewhere. I have to say I never learned about it growing up. Yeah, I understand the medication. It's a horrid story. It also reminds us of here we are decades later where not enough has changed in this country.

    Parent
    The ever topical Trump goes there (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 22, 2019 at 08:49:57 AM EST
    Scanning the Sunday Bobbles (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 10:58:37 AM EST
    I think Justin Amash just said he is running for president as an indie.

    On MTP

    This would be awsum

    And maybe (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 11:18:17 AM EST
    Congressman Rooney should primary Trump.

    State of the Union.  Which also had Gen Petraeus

    Parent

    This will be remembered as (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 11:21:31 AM EST
    The weekend when it started to fall apart

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 05:33:54 AM EST
    he will always have Lindsey  
    Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who has been one of the most vocal critics of President Donald Trump's decision to move U.S. troops out of northeastern Syria, said on Sunday he now believed "historic solutions" were possible.

    In an interview with Fox News Channel, Graham said a conversation he had with Trump over the weekend had fueled his optimism that a solution could be reached where the security of Turkey and the Kurds was guaranteed and fighters from Islamic State contained.



    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#98)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 06:37:46 AM EST
    I knew it was coming. Lindsay wanders off the reservation for a minute and then Trump shakes the Kompromat in his face and Lindsay falls back in line. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Parent
    On the same day (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 11:36:38 AM EST
    He said he was "open to impeachment"

    Political wind sock.

    Parent

    Which (none / 0) (#92)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 12:14:08 PM EST
    also had Sean Duffy, spewing lies and conspiracy theories on his first day on the job.

    Parent
    I feel like such a nerd (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 11:55:00 AM EST
    watching CNN and MSNBC in side by side picture in picture.

    Hillary is on a roll (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 07:30:41 PM EST
    Finding a lost JFK letter

    Dear Premier Khrushchev,

    Don't be a d*ck, ok? Get your missiles out of Cuba. Everybody will say `Yay! Khrushchev! You're the best!' But if you don't everybody will be like `what an assh*le' and call your garbage country `The Soviet Bunion.'

    You're really busting my nuts here.

    Give you a jingle later.

    Hugs,

    John Fitzgerald Kennedy



    Hillary got that from the Jimmy Kimmel (none / 0) (#96)
    by vml68 on Sun Oct 20, 2019 at 08:16:59 PM EST
    show. She needs to give proper attribution.

    Parent
    Trump is (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 12:06:33 PM EST
    Immolating

    He sounds like a crazy person. (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 12:22:39 PM EST
    John Harwood (on MSNBC) just said we all "just heard 20 minutes of nonsense."


    Parent
    He said more (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 06:54:51 PM EST
    "I say it is nonsense," Harwood explained following Trump's comments. "We just heard 20 minutes of nonsense from the president. It was very sad actually. He looked to me like somebody who understands his White House is in crisis and he's in over his head."

    "And you have Democrats coming after him and career diplomats and Republicans who are fed up with defending him privately," he continued. "They make fun of him behind his back. His own former officials don't respect him. This is a situation where a president is trying to justify the picture that exists in his head [of an] all powerful and efficient guy that's doing a great job."

    "That was a sad performance from the president just now," Harwood concluded.



    Parent