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Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows

Are the cartoons the cause of the continued violence, or were they the final straw? Ahmed Abu-Laban, the Muslim Cleric who began the cartoon protest now says:

This protest is not about the cartoons, offensive as they are," he said. "The cartoons are merely the final drop that caused the cup to overflow. The Muslim faith has been under attack for years. There has been intense psychological pressure on Muslims. We have heard Western politicians relate our faith to terrorism, over and over again, and it is too much. This was the response."

He also says he's "crying for Denmark."

[But he] also said Danish officials brought the crisis on themselves by not responding to initial protests and that he didn't feel responsible for the way the dispute had developed.

The violent reaction to the publication of anti-muslim cartoons is growing and spreading. The United Nations, European Union and Organisation of the Islamic Conference have joined forces to plead for calm. The Prime Minister of Denmark said today it is a global crisis.

The continued and growing protests certainly seem now to be about more than the cartoons or issues related to free speech. I agree the violence is spinning out of control. What will it take to bring calm?

[128 comments, thread closing. There will be another soon.]

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    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:31:59 PM EST
    It sure is a good thing that we've brought freedom and democracy to the middle east. I shudder to think how bad this would be if we hadn't.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:37:36 PM EST
    As someone who feels that cultural annihilation and forced conversion is, well, bad... I am not surprised at the reaction of the muslim world. Do I condone it? Not hardly. (wrong-wingers typically think because we are not surprised at a reaction that we condone it.) To learn from history: There are only two ways to ensure a different culture lives the way you want them to live. 1. Kill them all 2. or, completely and utterly suppress their culture, violently if at all possible. I know those 2 options both get some wrong wingers hot and bothered, but we seriously lack resources to achieve the former, and lack the cultural power to attain the second. This is a whole new can of worms, and sorry to say but the wrng wingers will capitalize on this come November...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 09:04:46 PM EST
    The best part? We have no actual leaders with the ability to speak to this in an evolved, sensitive, self-effacing, imaginative, rhetorically free manner.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#4)
    by joejoejoe on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 10:22:57 PM EST
    I think Ahmed Abu-Laban is as honest a broker as James Dobson. From the German Speigel Online:
    Kaare Quist, a journalist at the Danish daily Ekstra Bladet, who has been reporting on the story for a number of weeks, says the group [including Abu-Laban] found a number of highly placed officials in the Arab World keen to listen to its message. Quist told SPIEGEL ONLINE they included representatives of the Arab League, Egypt's grand mufti and other high-level officials. The trip the group made, Quist believes, helped to raise attention to the political cartoons in Jyllands-Posten and prejudices against Denmark's Muslims. some 270,000 of Denmark's 5.4 million population are Muslim, making up 5 percent of the population. Quist says the dossier they shared in Egypt may have been far more damaging than the Jyllands-Posten episode -- and it may have further exacerbated misgivings between Denmark and the Arab world. In addition to the now notorious caricatures published by the newspaper which have now spread like wildfire in the blogosphere, it also included patently offensive anti-Muslim images that had been sent to the group by other Muslims living in Denmark. The origins or authenticity of the images haven't been confirmed, but their content was nevertheless damaging. Quist says the dossier included three obscene caricatures -- one showed Muhammad as a pedophile, another as a pig and the last depicted a praying Muslim being raped by a dog.
    Ekstra Bladet is a Danish scandal rag but Speigel is a reputable source. US media is reporting this scandal is a reaction to the turban/bomb cartoon. On the Arab street it may be a reaction to far more graphic images.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#5)
    by Al on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 10:42:50 PM EST
    I don't think the Danish people deserve this. I for one will go out of my way to buy Danish products. I hear their beer is very good, and their cookies are to die for. I have the deepest sympathy for the common people who have suffered so much. A Palestinian grad student I know was unusually sullen one day, so I asked him if anything was the matter. He told me that he had learned that his wife's brother had been shot by Israeli soldiers as he tried to pull a child off the street during a protest. But I have nothing but contempt for the religious poobahs in their sinister black robes who scream with rage at a caricature, and yet are capable of this. And I am quite aware of the difference between the two.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 11:13:55 PM EST
    yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. skippy has a new look! go see!

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#7)
    by bad Jim on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:59:14 AM EST
    The Muslim protests are pointless and misplaced, but no big deal. Riots, burning embassies ... is this even news? The people professing offense, Muslim, many of them Arabs, have genuine grievances, including a neighboring country occupied by a distant country. And instead they attack Denmark. It's almost as though a country had been grievously wounded, and, not being able to revenge itself, invaded a different country which was easier to punish.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 03:19:47 AM EST
    It was too bad the cartoons were made in the first place, I do not thing making fun of any religion is the thing to do. I do find it interesting the reaction here on this site and most libs to these cartoons and the lack of reaction to the scads of Anti-semitic cartoons or say, Sinead O'connors statements about the Catholic faith or even the Piss-Christ "art".

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#9)
    by cpinva on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 03:40:40 AM EST
    johnny, has it been conclusively proven that you actually do know your butt from a hole in the ground? i'd like to see the evidence. religion has historically been the subject of satire and caricature, for better or worse. take a peek at some of the editorial cartoons loosed upon the land in the wake of the catholic priest pedophile scandals. it is the price one pays for freedom of speech; sometimes, that speech is ugly. that said, the only religion that condones physically violent responses to these offending items is, well, islam. at least, in its present form. the "leaders" of the islamic community rage against the locals from their pulpits, urging their adherents to commit violence against them, in the name of allah, than profess concern in public. pffffffffftttttttt! until the islamic community is able to control its radical elements, it will continue to be seen as a primitive sect. the sad part is, historically, islam was among the most enlightened of religions. no longer true, i'm afraid.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 04:54:38 AM EST
    cpinva-Satire is a device historically used by people within a group to express dissent. It is called Bashing when ones out side a group make fun of another culture. Tristero frames it well if you are interested.
    that said, the only religion that condones physically violent responses to these offending items is, well, islam. at least, in its present form.
    This is false on two points. One- if you accept that "Islam" condones violence than you have to accept that christianity, hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism etc also condone violence. two- if you do not accept that a religion itself condones violence, but some followers of that religion, in this case a very small percentage of followers, then they are no different than small percentages of all other religions who have recently been violent in the name of religion. Ever hear of the IRA, JDL, the list is long. If you want some historical context that contradicts your position you can start here.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 04:56:13 AM EST
    oops...here is the link for tristero/a>

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:05:24 AM EST
    Anyone interested in why these protests are going on might find this article thought provoking. If, as the author suggests, there is no ban on images of the prophet within the body of islamic law, and if, as he clearly shows, such images have been not only tolerated by muslims but produced and commissioned, why are we seeing these protests now and why are they so violent?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:32:29 AM EST
    justpaul's link from the WSJ editorial section is by and Iranian ex pat not so dissimilar from Chalabi. Amir Taheri is not as sharp or crafty as Chalabi he is more a neocon lapdog. He is a big supporter of regime change all over the mid-east, of course by force.
    If, as the author suggests, there is no ban on images of the prophet within the body of islamic law
    To make the simple out of context argument that the above is no reason to riot is deceptive. He asks as many here also ask Gee a silly cartoon and it is not even against Moslem law? Well I do not know where all of you have been for the last several years but this is not about a simple cartoon and any argument that uses that as its basis is disingenuous at best.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:36:49 AM EST
    cpinva: until the islamic community is able to control its radical elements, it will continue to be seen as a primitive sect. the sad part is, historically, islam was among the most enlightened of religions. Sigh... ummm... May I suggest you read that, replacing the Islam references with christian references? until the christian community is able to control its radical elements, it will continue to be seen as a primitive sect. the sad part is, historically, christianity was among the most enlightened of religions. Both religions have more than their large share of nutbar religious "leaders" doing their best to manipulate their flocks, and stir up hate and murder in the name of god or allah - - it's how these idiots gain and hold power over people, because not enough people in either culture realize that the only power religious leaders have really is the power their followers can be bamboozled into giving them... Many of the islamic clerics are crazy, just like many of christian ones are. The islamic ones incite their people to things like riots, beheadings, suicide bombings, hijackings, etc., while the christian ones incite mass state sanctioned violence with more modern technology. More moral to bomb them and burn them from the sky that it is to cut throats up close and personal? Both sides figure they are "holier "than the other side... falwell, robertslime, phelps, george w. bush, etc, etc. I think you'll find just as many of these in christianity as you will in islam. Personally, I think that belief in god or allah or prganized religion af any kind, is an obvious form of mental illness. In most cases very mild and benign, but in many cases malignant.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:43:50 AM EST
    To add a note of self awareness to my previous comment. I'm a little crazy in some ways too, but at least I'm aware of it...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:48:51 AM EST
    Squeaky, I believe what you have just done would be called "Swiftboating" if the messenger was John Kerry instead of a "neo-con lapdog". Many of the protesters claim to be rioting because it is against islamic law to portray the prophet in any way. This author, regardless of what you think of him, has shown that this is simply not true. If it were, these same people would be burning museums in Turkey, which they are not doing. Some of these people may well have other grievances, Squeak, but if so they should all put those grievances on the table rather than hide behind weak allusions to religious laws which do not exist. As it stands now, they are representing themselves primarily as religious zealots who have no reason and cannot be reasoned with. Not exactly a strong position from which to attempt any form of rational persuasion.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 05:59:45 AM EST
    justpaul-
    I believe what you have just done would be called "Swiftboating" if the messenger was John Kerry instead of a "neo-con lapd
    You are full of it. This writer has said that Bremer was the greatest. The Iraq debacle has nothing to do with the neo-cons. The neo-cons are the most important force in the world today. They will save us. Swiftboating??? by calling a neocon lapdog what he calls himself. By providing a link to his articles? I guess the image of the neo-con is so tarnished that the mere pointing to one is akin to swiftboating. Ha ha ho ho tee hee.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#18)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:06:53 AM EST
    Squeaky, And according to the Swiftboat veterans, John Kerry is a liar who has misrepresented his actions in Vietnam, a claim he himself supports by having changed his story. Nice attempt at backpedaling, Squeak, but you're flailing. One might also note the hypocrisy involved in the adherents of a religion which routinely refers to the followers of another religion as pigs and monkeys, which routinely refers to other nations as "the Great Satan", and which routinely declares suicidal war on everyone who does not follow their particular flavor of faith whining about being portrayed poorly by those same others they so soundly denounce themselves at every occasion. Face it, Squeak, you are simply a professional protestor, and you will climb onboard any protest which you see as being against this administration. But you have climbed into bed with a bunch of deranged lunatics who cannot tell the truth about their own faith or their own actions. If this is about what has been happening over the last few years, why are these people burning Danish embassies? Why have the Danes done to these people other than print these cartoons?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:07:22 AM EST
    Religious extremists, christian or muslim get no sympathy here. I remember when the movie "Oh God" stirred a boatload of controversy in the US. Imagine a world without George Carlin or Richard Pryor. Imagine a world that would not have allowed them to voice their satire because it offended "god". I say run the bombin mohammed cartoon every day, and run it with a cartoon depicting Haysuse asking Dubya for advice as they communicate on a regular basis. Black, white, yellow brown who cares? If you are that extreme about your religion you should have your head examined.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#20)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:22:43 AM EST
    cpinva, you looking at my butt?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:31:30 AM EST
    I say run the bombin mohammed cartoon every day, and run it with a cartoon depicting Haysuse asking Dubya for advice as they communicate on a regular basis. You now J, that just might work. Make the context as satirical, self-effacing and humorous as possible...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:44:09 AM EST
    justpaul-
    Face it, Squeak, you are simply a professional protestor, and you will climb onboard any protest which you see as being against this administration.
    And what are you? A wingnut who regularly posts words from the Fox echochamber on a left wing web site. Is that called a masochist?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:51:52 AM EST
    One might also note the hypocrisy involved in the adherents of a religion which routinely refers to the followers of another religion as "ragheads" and "camel jockeys", which routinely refers to other nations as "backward, medieval".

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#24)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:13:27 AM EST
    Do I condone it? Not hardly. (wrong-wingers typically think because we are not surprised at a reaction that we condone it.)
    After re-reading your little rant, I determined that you never read my post in the first place.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:14:55 AM EST
    edger, not to mention killing them off at an alarming rate, and regularly threatening to occupy their countries.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:21:56 AM EST
    squeaky: ...who regularly posts words from the Fox echochamber on a left wing web site. Is that called a masochist? sq, the part about him spending his hours being the contrarian wing-nut at a liberal blog is called sad and lonely. The masochistic part is when he gets pissed off about being told he's wrong all the time.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:23:07 AM EST
    Squeaky, yes. Any surprise they stap bombs to themselves to try and stop us? What other weapons do they have?
    "The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond."
    Link

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#28)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:30:07 AM EST
    Only an idiot would publish such gratuitously inflammatory material in this day and age. The publishing of these cartoons has exactly zero to do with "freedom of speech" and everything to do with a stupidly naive provocation. I would never have imagined that anyone could top George W. Bush as a recruiter for jihadists, but these cartoonists have him beat all to hell.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:41:12 AM EST
    John Mann - I am sorry, I cannot understand you, perhaps I am one of those idiots. Does freedom of speech allow you to call these people idiots? Now if the cartoonist was a homicidal maniac and killed you because you called him an idiot, does that make you or the cartoonist guilty. After all, it was your provocation of a homicidal maniac that induced your untimely death in this hypothetical. I have news for ya, god is not off limits, nor is mohammed, jesus or the priests who trade snickers for bj's. Nor the jehovahs witnesses or lds that show up at our doors to share with us the good word of god who does not like blood transfusions. I support the rights of every soul to worship as they please, they should support my right to enjoy satire as I please. I won't bring my satire into their churches, and they shouldn't bring their churches into my satire.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:43:51 AM EST
    It think you're right, John. Expecting the reaction is NOT condoning it. It's just being aware of the social, political, and historical context, and the current squaring off of two sides bent on stopping the other side. JL had a good idea when he suggested running side by side cartoons lampooning Islam and Christianity at the same time. If you can get two people in a fight who are determined to beat each other to death to start laughing at each other and at themselves instead, the fight will drain right out of them. We've all seen this happen in bars before, but we've also all seen the attempt not work, and the whole bar erupt in a rumble in which a knocked over ashtray starts a fire and burns down the house with everyone in it... Great... just great...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:44:26 AM EST
    If they want to run their governments as a theocracy and demand their governments forbid satire, I am all for it. Vote the theocrats in. Let me put this in Texan for you "fool me once, shame on someone, fool me twice, well i don't get fooled again".

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:50:39 AM EST
    Just curious, where is all the outrage for the burning churches in Alabama? We are worried about muslim reaction to satire and meanwhile someone with a boner for black churches is torching them. I know that the muslims burning stuff and going crazy makes great TV, but it does seem a bit weird that this gets nil coverage.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:51:50 AM EST
    John Mann writes:
    Only an idiot would publish such gratuitously inflammatory material in this day and age. The publishing of these cartoons has exactly zero to do with "freedom of speech" and everything to do with a stupidly naive provocation.
    I assume you are writing about the Toles cartoons published by the WaPost. edger - The issue is clear. What you see here is a strategy by the radical moslems to demand again that they have there way while saying they don't have to follow the rules of the countries they live in. And this was clearly stated in OBL's interview with Peter Arnett. What's next? Calls to prayer five times a day and riots when everyone doesn't pray? Slippery slope, edger? Johnny - Gald to know you don't condone the riots. Now we know these riots are clearly caused by the Imams of Denmark and England. Since their actions have obviously caused deaths and great property damage, shouldn't we arrest them and turn them over to the World Court? What say you, Johnny?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:01:58 AM EST
    John Mann-
    I would never have imagined that anyone could top George W. Bush as a recruiter for jihadists, but these cartoonists have him beat all to hell.
    Rumors have swirled that the Saudis pumped up the story to deflect blame that 350 people were at th haj. Odd that the Saudis and Bush often benefit from same events. I wonder if the recent refusal to release the Abu Ghraib photos in defiance of a court order has anything to do with this. Sure serves the Chimp's argument that showing te photos would cause national security problems. In fact it seems that the more terror we stir up the more power the chimp gets. Odd.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#35)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:04:04 AM EST
    I support the rights of every soul to worship as they please, they should support my right to enjoy satire as I please. I won't bring my satire into their churches, and they shouldn't bring their churches into my satire.
    I couldn't care less what anyone writes or publishes. I believe absolutely in freedom of speech and freedom of the press. My point was that it would have been prudent to consider the potential repercussions before publishing these cartoons.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#36)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:07:09 AM EST
    I assume you are writing about the Toles cartoons published by the WaPost.
    You know exactly what I was writing about, Jim. Why the gratuitously obtuse remark?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:19:06 AM EST
    sq: Rumors have swirled that the Saudis pumped up the story to deflect blame that 350 people were at th haj. At Informed Comment, Juan Cole reviews the events from the Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS) record:
    It is being alleged in some quarters that the controversy over the Danish caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad is somehow artificial or whipped up months later by the Saudis. This is not true. The controversy began in Denmark itself among the 180,000 Danish Muslims. It was taken up by the ambassadors of Muslim states in Copenhagen. Then the Egyptian foreign minister began making a big deal of it, as did Islamist parties in Turkey and Pakistan.
    ...the allegation that this thing was fanned by Saudi Arabia does not seem to be substantiated by the FBIS record, which shows Egypt's secular foreign minister to have been among the main fanners of the flame.


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#38)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:20:21 AM EST
    Squeaky, The link came from OpinionJournal, not Fox. Lord, no wonder you can't get your head on straight; you can't even read. Oh, but I forgot. We have already established that your memory is deficient past three minutes, so I guess your confusion is understandable. You might note, however, that, at least according to the tagline, this is a liberal news magazine, not a left-wing site. I guess you simply conflate the two, but I think you do Jeralyn a disservice by doing so. And what is wrong with noting the other side of the argument Squeak? There was a time when liberals claimed to be interested in diversity. I guess those days are dead now, at least for some. God forbid we look at the whole picture before jumping on the bus. I would also note that you are running away again. Rather than answer the obvious question of what exactly the Danes have doen to muslims other than print these cartoons, you whine about news sources. Do you have anything, from any source, that shows the Danes having earned this? Or is it your premise that muslims in general are incapable of differentiating between their enemies and neutral parties and that Danish embassies are being attacked in response to something a third party has done? Edger, Regarding One might also note the hypocrisy involved in the adherents of a religion which routinely refers to the followers of another religion as "ragheads" and "camel jockeys", which routinely refers to other nations as "backward, medieval". While I think I understand what you were trying to say, and, if I'm right, I would agree with you, what you actually said shows no hypocrisy at all because it says nothing. For their to be some sort of hypocrisy on the part of those who make such comments about adherents of another religion, they would have to do or say something about how those adherents treated or referred to them. Did you have a particular group in mind? To turn all of this around, let's suppose that a media outlet controlled by another country, not a free newspaper, published material making deragtory statements about a certain groups religious beliefs (such as the Eqyptian papers do regularly). Would the adherents of that religion if it were, for example, Judaism, be correct to attack Eqyptians, make death threats against Eqyptian government officials, and burn Eqyptian embassies in other countries in protest?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:23:18 AM EST
    jp: Oh, but I forgot. We have already established that your memory is deficient... temper, temper...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#40)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:39:19 AM EST
    In fact it seems that the more terror we stir up the more power the chimp gets.
    Fear is all Mr. Bush has, and he rules by it. For he and the jihadists, it's a win/win relationship; fear got him reelected and his reelection ensured a growing supply of recruits for the jihadists.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#41)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:50:35 AM EST
    temper, temper... Punisher, Temper has nothing to do with it. Just last week Squeak was using his inability to remember anything that happened during the 90s in his own defense. As such, it would seem to established.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:51:46 AM EST
    justpaul-
    The link came from OpinionJournal, not Fox. Lord, no wonder you can't get your head on straight; you can't even read.
    gee I guess that you are having an alzheimer episode here. I not only mentined the source of your propaganda but provided a link of other neocin propaganda pieces of Amir Taheri for all to see.
    justpaul's link from the WSJ editorial section is by and Iranian ex pat
    link guess you missed the name of this site.
    this is a liberal news magazine, not a left-wing site.
    odd name Talk left huh. Maybe you better write Jeralyn and point out that her name of this site is misleading.
    I would also note that you are running away again. Rather than answer the obvious question of what exactly the Danes have doen to muslims other than print these cartoons
    I have written about this issue several times already providing links with each comment I have made. Guess your the one who appears to have dementia here.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:56:16 AM EST
    While I think I understand what you were trying to say, and, if I'm right, I would agree with you, what you actually said shows no hypocrisy at all because it says nothing. Justpaul, I must say that is one of the best examples of intentionally missing a point, and refusal to walk in someone else shoes, that I've seen here in awhile. But I'm also not surprised.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:00:38 AM EST
    jp: Just last week Squeak was using his inability to remember anything that happened during the 90s... That's inaccurate. jp: As such, it would seem to established. That's farfetched. jp: Lord, no wonder you can't get your head on straight; you can't even read... Oh, but I forgot. We have already established that your memory is deficient past three minutes... That's mad.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:12:18 AM EST
    What a lame attempt by the left to cloak their cowardice as cultural sensitivity.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#46)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    Squeak, Let me put it in terms even you will understand: Well I do not know where all of you have been for the last several years but this is not about a simple cartoon and any argument that uses that as its basis is disingenuous at best. Got a link or two to back that up, Squeak? What is this about. Please be specific. You claim you know what's really going on, so please enlighten me. As for the site and it's name: Names are interesting things, Squeak, but they don't always tell the whole truth. Free Republic is far from free or a republic. As for Jeralyn, she herself describes the sites as "The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news", which is a far better description than "left wing site". I'm sorry if you feel that this site is or should be limited to "left wing" commenters, but that isn't the case. I read both this site and others on both sides of the spectrum to get a balanced picture (after all, it's not as if Fox is really providing a fair and balanced source, is it?(; it's a shame you don't. Edger, Your inability to frame a sensical argument is not something I need to take credit for. If you had provided an example of hypocrisy on the part of any religious group, as I did, your statement would have meant something. Because you didn't provide such an example, or for that matter, an example of any action at all, it is incoherent at best. Next time try reading through your comment before hitting the post button. Punisher, Look it up. Squeaky took umbrage at my suggestion that Al Gore's experience with the issues of missing e-mails made it clear that Cheney had no excuse for the fact that his are missing. He even demanded links to prove it happened. I can't help it if Squeaky's memory only went online4 on January 20, 2001.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:18:59 AM EST
    I just looked it up. I stand by my comment.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:22:30 AM EST
    Let me get this straight John Mann, if the "repercussions" of a cartoon are rioting and mayhem, the newspaper should not publish said cartoon? Makes sense to me. If you are a radical or extremist of any faith or group or association, the clear message here is that if you do not like the message all you need to do is riot, burn effigies, threaten a few suicide bombings and start fire to an embassy or two. Theocracies have a right to exist and flourish as much as democracies, but they have no special rights of protection from satire nor should they be given a pass because "religion" is important to them. Perhaps we can run a cartoon with Haysuse fellating Mohammed so that everyone will feel better knowing that the west messiah is subservient to their messiah and make everything all nice nice again. I saw that an Islamic leader in the UK condemned any acts of violence as a result of the cartoon the other day. On the other hand, pat Robertson talks openly about murdering a head of state and the right wing defends his comments. spiritually misguided?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:31:15 AM EST
    Got a link or two to back that up, Squeak? justpaul, There have been many posted in various threads, I rather doubt that you read them, but maybe you just missed them (?) so here's one.. Your local library should have at least one or two history books as well. And I'm sure that Squeaky will have more than one link for you.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#51)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:39:23 AM EST
    Let me get this straight John Mann, if the "repercussions" of a cartoon are rioting and mayhem, the newspaper should not publish said cartoon?
    In my view, it's no different than yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Should the person stupid enough to do that not expect consequences even if he or she was merely practicing freedom of speech or expression? The cartoonists in question and the orginal publisher of the material have stated that they never expected the kind of reaction they got by printing the results of their rather ill-conceived cartoon contest. Seems a little naive, don't you think?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:41:02 AM EST
    But Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said his government had nothing to apologize for. "I think everybody should realize that neither the Danish government nor the Danish people can be held responsible for what is published in a free and independent newspaper," he told CNN.
    A FRIGGIN MEN.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:45:50 AM EST
    Got a link or two...? Juan Cole at informed comment has written extensively on the subject. He also makes this good point:
    ...There are 1.5 billion Muslims. A lot of Muslim countries saw no protests at all. In some places, as in Pakistan, they were anemic. The caricature protests are resonating with local politics and anti-imperialism in ways distinctive to each Muslim country. The protests therefore are probably not mostly purely about religion.


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#54)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:51:30 AM EST
    The protests therefore are probably not mostly purely about religion.
    Ain't that the truth.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:59:00 AM EST
    Screaming fire in a theater is not satire, pretty simple. No more than someone calling you and telling you that they are calling from the local hospital and your wife was raped and set on fire is satire. But there was no fire, no rape and no prank call. What there was, was a satirical cartoon protected by free speech in Denmark, which sparked outrage in several "muslim" countries. ann Coulter has said much worse, I wonder why that is not at play here. I wonder why Pat Robertson was never charged for advocating and endorsing the murder of a head of state. I wonder why the US sends any military people to the Middle East so as not to spark ire amongst the islamofascists etc. I wonder why freedom of speech is so vehemently protected in the US and so flippant when it comes to this issue. I wonder why the left hates when Pat Robertson endorses the murder of Chavez, does not like teaching of Intelligent Design or prayer in school, yet finds even the remotest inkling of defense for those saying this cartoon should have been censored. Reminds me of a line in Tombstone "It would appear that my hypocrisy knows no bounds"..... Tell me, should we no longer offend the half of the country that loves George Bush with satire about him?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 10:30:05 AM EST
    Tell me, should we no longer offend the half of the country that loves George Bush with satire about him? We shouldn't. At all. Never. But if you walk into a bar full of people not of your race and start cracking jokes about them, even one you might think are lighthearted, what reaction would you expect? Expecting the reaction, and restraining yourself so you don't provoke it, is not in any way a restriction of your freedom of speech. I think that is John's point, JL. No?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    justpaul-
    Got a link or two to back that up, Squeak? What is this about. Please be specific. You claim you know what's really going on, so please enlighten me.
    Sorry jp but enlightenment is not in the cards for you in this lifetime. You have made that clear.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#58)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:12:12 AM EST
    Now we know these riots are clearly caused by the Imams of Denmark and England. Since their actions have obviously caused deaths and great property damage, shouldn't we arrest them and turn them over to the World Court? What say you, Johnny?
    Sasquatch.. Seriously, Jimmy, where do you come up with these extrapolations?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:14:47 AM EST
    Only problem with that argument is that it is not a bar, it is not a place "filled" with any specific race other than Danes, no? And truth be told, even if the entire country were filled with muslims and they printed it, I would call that courageous, not inflammatory. Those enticing and converting people to strap 3 pounds of c-4 to themselves under the premise of 70 virgins are worthy of satire, no?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:27:59 AM EST
    They don't get 72 virgins. They've been lied to by their leaders, just like we have. They get ONE 72 year old virgin. (/satire) ;-)

    If you want to do an action, and someone will respond badly to that action, do you then choose not to do the action? Well, it depends. Mostly it depends on your willingness to give some of your power/right of self-determination to the other party. I stand in support of the Danes.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:28:43 AM EST
    Jlvngston-
    Only problem with that argument is that it is not a bar, it is not a place "filled" with any specific race other than Danes, no?
    The Dane's a race??? Never heard that one. The concept of race in general is a fiction invented by those who needed to feel superior. A true pseudo-science.

    I thought is was 72 Virginians...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:30:57 AM EST
    E - now that was funny. SU - Makes no sense to me. "It will cause people to behave like idiots, so don't do it." What's next, elimination of editorials?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#65)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:33:02 AM EST
    sorry Squeaky, horrible choice of words, just aping edgers use of it relative to the bar analogy. the more appropriate argument to the bar analogy anyway is a newspaper is not a bar. That better?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:34:41 AM EST
    I thought is was 72 Virginians... It used to be. But I think Virginia is fresh out of virgins by now. Unless you're a Doors fan... ;-)

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:37:59 AM EST
    the more appropriate argument to the bar analogy anyway is a newspaper is not a bar. Better, a little. Try walking into the news room and being sarcastic about their writing skills. But practice your bobbing and weaving and rope-a-doping first. ;-)

    SU - Makes no sense to me. "It will cause people to behave like idiots, so don't do it."
    Jl, that's a very refreshing perspective, it would be nice if more of us lived by it. Most of us though - when someone reacts like an idiot to something we do, that we have every right to do - just say FU. One group wants the power to print any stupid cartoon they want, and another group wants the power to stop them. Isn't that what this is all about?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#69)
    by ltgesq on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:49:18 AM EST
    1st, please see salon article today which describes freedom of speech in denmark. (no such thing) 2nd, this series of cartoons were specifically requested by the editor to "shake things up." 3rd, months before the printing of the Mohamad characteratures, the paper declined to publish satirical drawings of jesus, on the grounds it would upset the readership. 4th, Ambassadors from various muslim nations requested that the danish government meet with them and issue some sort of apology. The currant government gave them the cold shoulder and failed to respond 5th, the paper that published this is strongly linked to the existing government in denmark. 6th, there is no such thing as "islamofacists" Islamists are theocrats, Fascists are secular socialists (with severe authoritarian inclinations) The word "islamofacist " indicates the speaker is an idiot. It would be akin to describing people in the states as "evangelical christian communists"

    Oh yeah, Jl, I think you read my original post wrong - my position is not to give in to unreasonable demands. I support the publication of the cartoon and any editorial you want.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:06:42 PM EST
    I would love to see some commenters posting here from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. for contrast and discussion. We could learn much, I think. Also, the more communication between peoples there is, the less likely war is supported, I suspect. Anyone know of or have links to any ME blogs?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:21:26 PM EST
    Wow, Narius... I don't know where you were born. But I was born on the PLANET, my friend. Even as a little kid I loved exploring outside the boundaries of my backyard.
    The sea is dangerous and its storms terrible, but these obstacles have never been sufficient reason to remain ashore ... unlike the mediocre, intrepid spirits seek victory over those things that seem impossible ... it is with an iron will that they embark on the most daring of all endeavors ... to meet the shadowy future without fear and conquer the unknown.
    --Ferdinand Magellan -----
    The wise man travels to discover himself.
    --James Russell Lowell

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:27:58 PM EST
    Ltgesq - It makes no difference "why" they were published. They were. That the radical moslems use them to incite riots is also a fact. So, I guess in your world the way we get along is to not do something that the radical moslems will not like. Hey, that works for OBL. Johnny - Oh, just remembering all the times I have seen Lefties call for the World Court to try Bush. Cheney, Condi, US military, etc., etc. What's the matter? Aren't the Imams good enough to be tried by the World Court?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:28:31 PM EST
    edger-riverbend my favorite. She has not blogged yet about this but there are links on her site. She is in baghdad. Helena Cobbanis a good source too. Links on her site. And of course juan cole

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:31:37 PM EST
    Thanks, Squeaky! Do you post as Squeaky on Riverbend also?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#77)
    by demohypocrates on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:39:38 PM EST
    Edger, Two Egyptian blogs for a balanced perspective.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:44:45 PM EST
    edger-There are no comments on riverbend. I have commented a couple of times on Helena Cobban's web site. yes as squeaky


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:46:48 PM EST
    Thanks Demo!

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    SU - No, I believe I read it right. I was agreeing with you, I just worded it poorly. Also, I may think the satire was stupid (and I do NOT) but support their right to print it nonetheless. I may think those that protest peacefully are stupid but support their right to do so peacefully. As for the idiots that are burning sh*t and going crazy, well I agree that it is even stupider to design policy around appeasing extremists.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:28:41 PM EST
    ltsegq - or whatever: 1) Islamofascist etc was satirical, which of course goes to the point of this discourse. 2) Because they cowered on Haysuse and ran with Moe, makes it apology worthy? 3) Ambassadors from Saudi and Kuwait were first and they are our bed buddies. 4)But Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said his government had nothing to apologize for. "I think everybody should realize that neither the Danish government nor the Danish people can be held responsible for what is published in a free and independent newspaper," he told CNN. Anyone seeking redress should turn to the courts, he said. "We do have legislation which sets certain limitations on the freedom of expression." He cited "racist and blasphemous" expressions as among those not allowed. "It's up to the courts to decide whether the law had been infringed; it's not up to the government." The cartoons were originally published in September in the Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten. But protests against the government itself have gained in intensity in recent days after the reprinting of the caricatures in other publications. 5) Where were you when the Last Temptation of HAysuse was around?

    As for the idiots that are burning sh*t and going crazy, well I agree that it is even stupider to design policy around appeasing extremists.
    I'm with you Jl.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:35:36 PM EST
    SU - I reread my note and I can see how it sounded like a dig to ya, wasn't going there, I am wit ya also.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#85)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:55:01 PM EST
    What's the matter? Aren't the Imams good enough to be tried by the World Court?
    I now realize you are baiting me... Nice try. Go fishing in the kiddie pond, I recognize your tactics now.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 01:56:01 PM EST
    Jl - The fact is no major mainstream newspaper would dare circulate a cartoon with a highly offensive depiction of Jesus or Moses; if they have in the past, Im unaware of it. Alot of the Muslims may be fanatical but that dosnt make them completely stupid; and to them the obvious flippant double standard, particularly in a highly charged time, speaks volumes. Im not excusing the violence btw.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:14:35 PM EST
    "A free newspaper". If its free the way the American media is "free" then theyre living in almost constant fear that an advertiser will get thier feathers ruffled and threaten to pull out. Anyone who doubts that this occurs should read "Into the Buzzsaw."

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:17:52 PM EST
    Aren't the Imams good enough to be tried by the World Court? Uh, Jim? You've already tried and convicted them right here in this thread, haven't you? ;-)

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:34:32 PM EST
    Courtesy of Newsbusters.org Back in the 1990s, the New York Times took a far different tone regarding two excretory-based exhibits offensive to Christians -- though back then the controversy came without the violent protests, death threats, or fire-bombings of embassies we are seeing today. Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" consistied of a crucifix submerged in a tank of Serrano's urine. Chris Ofili's "The Holy Virgin Mary" showed the icon clotted with elephant dung and surrounded by pornographic cut-outs. On October 2, 1999, the editors dealt with Christian offense in a single clause, before calling for art that "challenge[d] the public": "To be sure, many citizens of conscience find parts of the Brooklyn exhibition repugnant, and it is understandable that many Roman Catholics would find Chris Ofili's image of the Virgin Mary offensive. Others would agree with our colleague William Safire that while the Brooklyn Museum has a right to show what it likes, the administrators have been clumsy or needlessly provocative. Yet a Daily News poll shows that the majority of New Yorkers support the museum over Mayor Giuliani by a ratio of two to one. Those numbers show a broad-based support for New York's role as the nation's cultural capital. The people understand intuitively what Mr. Giuliani ignores for political gain. A museum is obliged to challenge the public as well as to placate it, or else the museum becomes a chamber of attractive ghosts, an institution completely disconnected from art in our time."

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:41:08 PM EST
    Not the same as a cartoon published in major papers. Not even close. Most people never even heard of "Piss Christ." Do the same depiction in the NYT sunday comics and see what happens.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:42:05 PM EST
    Jondee, I would agree that no american paper would dare run a cartoon on Jesus, but Hustler magazine would. As far as whether or not they are "stupid" let me rephrase, any person acting violently in protest is behaving in an anti-social manner, especially if they harm someone completely unaffiliated with those responsible for printing the cartoon. Those people should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Unfortunately, the law it would appear in Muslim countries would not recognize that as lawlessness nor anti-social behavior. I respect their decision to determine what is lawful and not lawful. By my standards, attacking a Dane in the street because a newspaper in their country printed a cartoon that upset them is rather anti-social and criminal. I would go on the record as saying I am against any amnesty program for the religiously whacked who want to hurt people because of an evil cartoon.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#92)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:45:12 PM EST
    Jondee I thought your argument was whether or not any paper had the chutzpah to print one, not whether it falls under the protection of free speech or free expression as it is identified in Denmark.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 02:47:38 PM EST
    And of course as I said in a previous thread, Muslims need to organize just like the evangelicals. Boycott the advertisers into submission. What do you think of NBC not going with "cruci-fixins" on Will and Grace?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#94)
    by demohypocrates on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    An Egyptian blogger, whom I happened to have linked to earlier, claims that an Egyptian paper published the cartoons in October 2005. He has copies of the paper, fwiw. Interesting. Would go a long way towards showing that this whole outrage was really just cooked up by imams to inflame hatred against the West. We all know it was, but let's see if MSM, now so sensitive to Muslim radicalism, picks up on the story

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:17:04 PM EST
    Johnny - Me? Bait you? Really now. It is a very simple and straight forward question. Do you or do you do not believe that people who have broken international law be tried by the world court? Are you saying that they haven't brokem the law? Incitement to riot with 8 deaths as a consquence? Destruction of personal property in the millions of dollars? Interview
    During his visits with Muslim leaders, Akkari also showed images that had not been published in any newspaper, but were part of hate mail sent to his colleagues. Those drawings show the Prophet as "a pig, a dog, a woman and a child-sodomizing madman," says the Globe. He said the images were not meant to be mistaken for cartoons published in newspapers, but protesters have cited the drawings during their rallies.
    Short version for edger.
    I didn't know the gun was loaded And I'm so sorry my friend I didn't know the gun was loaded And I'll never, never do it again But one night she made a slip Shot the sheriff in the hip So the law it took a hand And made Effie take the stand
    edger - Read the above. BTW - You are not saying they didn't, are you? I mean surely not. et al - I see the thread has been turned into a Christian attack festival. You know, I looked and looked and could find any chistians burning buildings over the latest insult...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#96)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:43:08 PM EST
    Are you saying that they haven't brokem the law? Incitement to riot with 8 deaths as a consquence? Destruction of personal property in the millions of dollars?
    I didn't say anything. Cast again, fisherman.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#97)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:53:19 PM EST
    I never knew you could sing, Jim! You have hidden talents. Can you sing tenor? You know, like ten or twelve miles away? ;-)

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:20:00 PM EST
    Here's a comment from the blog Captain's Quarters in June 2005, on a thread on the subject of flag burning:
    We don't need an amendment to ban desecrating the flag. What we need is an amendment which states that if you desecrate the flag, you give up all rights to sue if you get the crap beat out of you by people who object to you desecrating the flag. Let them have their "free speech". Just give us the right to try and persuade them differently...
    And if you'll recall, back in the early 1990's, there were introduced in several state legislatures "Beat up a flagburner" bills that were to reduce the penalty for assault to a $5 fine if the victim was burning a flag.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:26:05 PM EST
    Come on, punisher. Never happen. Our trolls have given their solemn christian assurance on this. No way.... You don't think? Noooo...... really?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:38:49 PM EST
    In America we don't get offended by some silly cartoons and start destroying property, we just do it because it's fun without any provocation. It is a tradition!!Good ole boys

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#102)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:42:35 PM EST
    "The person that did this is a person that's full of hate. A person that's full of hate doesn't know God," he said. Ahem.. Must be some crazed left wing loons, Squeaky.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#103)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:51:27 PM EST
    Juan Cole gets a letter from a Dane:
    The fact is, of course is that entire Muslim community, to a certain degree, is getting tarred with the same brush because of a few. There are approx. 180,000 Muslims in Denmark. A very small number, from congregations composing 2-3% have been very visible the past couple of years -- in particular a handful of imams, two of which I should name, Abu Laban and Mohammad Fouad Albarazi have been very visible. What can I say of them? Sort of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell wannabes, I guess. Anyway they sent delegations to the Middleeast -- and misrepresented the character of the drawings....


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:59:39 PM EST
    Gotta be an isolated incident, or Juan is hallucinating again. Moonbat propaganda, right trolls?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:48:42 PM EST
    Just wondering: Does the board really see anything that offensive about Mohammad turning back the bombers because he is out of virgins? Is this reason to call for the murder of the person who drew the picture? Doesn't the board think the cartoon is just a little funny?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 06:21:25 AM EST
    edger - Alas, I once tried out for the BeeGees and was rejected....And to think the group would have been calld the PokerBeeGees.. BTW - The song is an old C&W standard, didn't reognize, eh? Johnny - Your silence speaks loudly. Squeaky - It would have been nice if Cole had told the Dane that it would have neen helpful if the Danish Moslems were demonstrating against the actions of the rioters... Too much to ask, I suppose.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#107)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 06:45:29 AM EST
    ppj-
    It would have been nice if Cole had told the Dane that it would have neen helpful if the Danish Moslems were demonstrating against the actions of the rioters...
    Instead of whining to me about what you think would "be nice" for Cole to tell the reader to tell 97% of the muslims in Denmark what they should do. Do it your self. And while you are at it, trying to make people do what you think is nice, why don't you start a little closer to home?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#108)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 06:45:50 AM EST
    I am trying to figure out what is worse: Calling for the assassination of a World leader, or burning effigies over a cartoon. It is a tie, one is reprehensible and the other is ridiculous. Oh yeah, throw in the outrage over cruci-fixins and we have a trifecta.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 07:04:14 AM EST
    the letter to Cole was noted as being from "A reader living in Denmark..." The letter writer's name is Charles Cliff. I could be wrong here, but my understanding was that he is neither a Dane, nor Islamic. Since he's apparently been living in Denmark through the course of this episode, his impressions and insights are interesting and worth sharing. But I don't see why it would have made sense for Cole to have sent him a response letter lecturing him on what Danish Moslems should do or not do.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 07:27:09 AM EST
    punisher-From the letter:
    She [Pia Kjærsgaard] and her party [Danske Folkeparti] have been hammering away in particular using (and increasing) the tensions between the "Danes", the "new-Danes" and "second-generation immigrants" (these are of course all code words -- if I refer to myself as a "new-Dane" or my sin as a "second-generation", people find it funny -- has something to do with the fact that I don't have brownish or dark skin, I guess... ).
    What do you think makes a Dane? I would think a Dane is a Danish citizen or someone who has adopted Denmark as their country.
    But I don't see why it would have made sense for Cole to have sent him a response letter lecturing him on what Danish Moslems should do or not do.
    I could not agree more. That is why I suggested that ppj take matters into his own hands and go directly to the source, if it bothers him so much.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 07:47:53 AM EST
    Juan Cole has another has another post (excerpt from his article at Salon). Was it PPJ who quoted Daniel Pipes? Evidentily Pipes had a hand in the publishing of the cartoons. No surprise as unrest in the mideast only serves the WH and neocon agenda. Think of all the money and power they gain because the world is such a dangerous place, and they need to protect us from it even if it means taking away our rughts. Ironic that the WH and neocons create the unrest to begin with. From Cole:t
    Muslim touchiness about Western insults to the prophet Mohammed must be understood in historical context.
    read on...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 08:04:46 AM EST
    squeaky, the who's a Dane question is left for the Danes and new-Danes to answer. I didn't read the letter as closely as you did, so I missed the writer's self-description as a new-Dane. Even if he were 100th generation Danish back to King Hamlet, it makes little difference to me. He's either a good reporter and translator of the social, political, cultural scene there or he isn't. He seems good enough to my quick read. Even if he were a Danish Muslim, I wouldn't think that it'd make sense to answer his correspondence with a lecture on what the rest of the Danish Muslim community should do or have done. It'd be rude. My apologies for assuming that he's not a Dane.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#113)
    by Johnny on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 08:41:47 AM EST
    Johnny - Your silence speaks loudly.
    Huh? About what? Not taking your bait? Cast again, fisherman.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#114)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 08:51:02 AM EST
    This whole mess jogged my memory of some particularly offensive concert Ts my friends and I sported as kids. The Dayglo Abortions always had particularly raw shirts. The Thrill Kill Death Kult had a shirt with a human scull wearing Mickey Mouse ears and the inscription "finger f**king Christ". Stupid punk kids; it was fun. You know, we got the stink eye quite a bit but no one ever burned my effigy. God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in one of these oppressive and backward stink-holes.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 08:55:55 AM EST
    pw-
    God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in one of these oppressive and backward stink-holes.
    You mean like Alabama?

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#116)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:07:05 AM EST
    pw- check this out:
    But for the rest of you pinko bastards, you burn my flag, and i'll burn your ass. Many of you have already been marked, and we know who you are.


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:10:53 AM EST
    Come on, punisher. Never happen. Our trolls have given their solemn christian assurance on this. No way....
    pinko AQ baaahstards

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#118)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:18:32 AM EST
    Honestly, I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by pointing to this or that wrong in the US. Does bad behavior here excuse atrocious behavior elsewhere? Are you trying to draw some parallel between life in the US and life in, say, Iran? Neither point stands even the most superficial inspection; they are both, on their face, absurd.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#119)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:25:45 AM EST
    Does bad behavior here excuse atrocious behavior elsewhere? Nor does condemning bad behavior elsewhere excuse it here.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#120)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:30:32 AM EST
    Does bad behavior here excuse atrocious behavior elsewhere? Certainly not! And such a conclusion is nowhere suggested in anything I've said. I was responding to this self-righteous proclamation:
    I'm glad I didn't grow up in one of these oppressive and backward stink-holes.
    That within our great nation we continue to have our own oppressive and backward stink-holes is demonstrated by the presence of these dudes:
    burn my flag, and i'll burn your ass. Many of you have already been marked,


    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#121)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:53:36 AM EST
    "Nor does condemning bad behavior elsewhere excuse it here."
    And
    "Certainly not! And such a conclusion is nowhere suggested in anything I've said."
    Well, this thread is about some Muslim zealots going ape$hit over a cartoon, not the laundry list of other crap that has been thrown up as, what? Wait, what was the point again? Come on folks, its transparent. Each criticism of the rioters has been met with a 'look over here', 'look who else is behaving badly' (or worse, they're puppets). The claim is implicit; bad behavior here does excuse this business.
    "That within our great nation we continue to have our own oppressive and backward stink-holes is demonstrated by the presence of these dudes:"
    Actually, no it's not. If there were hoards of these dudes actively and violently opposing folks they perceived as unaligned with their interests you would have a point. How can you compare some joker talking tough on the internet to real, physical oppression of speech? Take my previous example. I walked around rural Idaho as a punk kid with a shirt inscribed "finger f**king Christ", absolutely unmolested. What do you suppose would happen to some kid in Tehran or Kandahar (large, relatively liberal cities) with a shirt bearing "finger f**king Mohamed"? I can't believe I even have to make this argument. Folks, your emperor is bare a$$ naked.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#122)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 10:01:09 AM EST
    I also feel that the flag-burning analogy is relevant because there are people who while rightly condemning the violent response to the cartoon have suggested that we Americans do not have our own sacred symbols. They forget that are symbols that many of us are very protective and sensitive about. The flag comes to mind, and there are many Americans, in every county across the nation, who would (wrongly) feel justified in violently punishing anyone that they believed to have injured it. One of the lamer arguments that I've heard, in favor of an anti-flag-desecration amendment, was that we need to make it against the law in order to protect flag-desecrators from angry mob retribution.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 10:01:37 AM EST
    pw-
    Come on folks, its transparent. Each criticism of the rioters has been met with a 'look over here', 'look who else is behaving badly' (or worse, they're puppets). The claim is implicit; bad behavior here does excuse this business.
    You are full of it. The whole outrage is couched with the implicit argument that something like that couldn't happen here and that those guys are crazy. Your own words
    God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in one of these oppressive and backward stink-holes.


    Actually, I think the argument is that it could happen here - hell anything could happen here - but it doesn't happen here, I believe that is the point. pw, whereabouts in Idaho did you grow up? I worked a summer in the SE part of the state - from Franklin up through Rigby and Driggs. Unbelievably beautiful country. If it wasn't for the winters there...

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#125)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    I think the argument is that it could happen here that's not my argument, though it might be someone's. But comment #125 on a thread is enough for me. I'm done with this one.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#126)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 11:33:20 AM EST
    "pw, whereabouts in Idaho did you grow up? I worked a summer in the SE part of the state - from Franklin up through Rigby and Driggs."
    Same part. It is unbelievable beautiful. I spent many childhood summer weekends camping under the Tetons. Punisher is right; I'm done here too.

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#127)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 12:50:35 PM EST
    John Horse.. Should the person stupid enough to do that not expect consequences even if he or she was merely practicing freedom of speech or expression? Yeah...let's all (the rest of the world) make sure we don't do anything to make these radicals mad...right? Why don't they just join the rest of civilization? All religions are up for critisism...and in this day & age...especially Islam...they need to deal with it like everyone else does!

    Re: Violence Over Anti-Muslim Cartoons Grows (none / 0) (#128)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 01:51:14 PM EST
    BB-
    Why don't they just join the rest of civilization?
    Why don't you? as you seem very uncivilized to me and eveyone else here.