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Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental Health Records

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:02:59 PM EST
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Lawyers for Duke lacrosse player Reade Seligman today filed a motion seeking the accuser's mental health records.

The motion alleges that ""the complaining witness has suffered from mental and emotional problems for a portion of her life."

Additionally, J. Kirk Osborn, who represents 20-year-old Reade Seligmann, surmises that there is a "good chance" that the accuser "may have been committed, at least once, to a hospital or drug treatment program." As such, Osborn wants material documenting the woman's supposed "drug abuse history," [as well as her] probation, and education records. The material sought, Osborn argues, provides "rich sources of information for impeaching the complaining witness."

The defense is asking that the records be provided directly to them, rather than to the court for an ex parte review.

Kobe Bryant's lawyers filed similar motions in his sexual assault case (One of them is here (pdf). They sought to introduce evidence of the accuser's prior suicide attempt and prescription drug usage and asked for records that would confirm their belief she was bi-polar. The Judge in the Kobe Bryant case ultimately ruled against the defense, finding that Colorado law established a physician-patient privilege which the accuser had not waived. (order here.)

Some things that might be different in this case: The accuser was first taken by police from Krogers to a psychiatric unit. An hour later, they took her to the medical center to be examined for rape.

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    • Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental Health Records | 94 comments (94 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:35:06 PM EST
    TL is this pretty standard even when there is no claim of consensual sex? This motion asked for Department of Social Services and her high school records as well. Are these pertinent in any way in your point of view? With an ironclad alibi are these filings done just in case the alibi falls apart?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:44:32 PM EST
    Teresa, I updated the post to include information relevant to what you are asking. You can read the pleadings link. I don't think consensual or not makes a different here. The alibi may create a greater need for access to the records. If his alibi holds, she is either lying or mistaken about his identity. The defense will want to explore each option.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:46:30 PM EST
    Teresa: The defence needs to provide multiple sources of doubt. They will hope to show that DNA links another man to the rape, that their client was somewhere else (best of course to be in another state or country, though perhaps a bank machine will do), that the complainant is mentally unstable, and that the police framed them. There is no such thing as too much support for the defense, and filing such a motion, which won't be disclosed to the jury, is pretty much standard practice for all competent defence lawyers when they have a chance of getting it. No lawyer is going to be worried about making their client look guilty once indicted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#4)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:50:13 PM EST
    That makes sense. Thanks to both of you. I guess I'm confused as to why they feel the need to go so far if the evidence say she didn't have sex with anybody, not just the Duke guys. I'll go read the update now.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 06:37:01 PM EST
    I have never asked for records such as these by motion alone. I have always used a subpoena duces tecum with a brief in support. I doubt the defense is entitled to the entire mental health record. Any reason for asking by motion w/o an in camera review?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 06:37:15 PM EST
    This exactly like jury deliberations. One problem. Usually before the jury deliberates, there is a little thing called a trial. Allegedly, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. But the people have the right to know. Know what? That nobody knows anything until the trial. That is what this "right" has come to. If the Founding Fathers had predicted FoxNews, they would have made this more explicit. Or maybe they thought "innocent until proven guilty" was enough. How wrong they were. Cases should really be sealed until acquittal or conviction, then the people's right to know could be exercised. The right to know was originally a check on government power, not a means to convict before conviction.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:08:07 PM EST
    Why is this case such an issue for TL? I understand why it is a media circus, but why does TL dwell on it? IF TL hadn't already concluded that the boys are innocent and the dancer is a liar and this is a horrendous miscarriage of justice, there really wouldn't be anything to talk about. Why wouldn't be best to let the evidence unfold, under the rules of evidence, in a courtroom.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:35:15 PM EST
    Why is this case such an issue for TL? I understand why it is a media circus, but why does TL dwell on it? It's in the news every day and fromthe perspecitve of a defense attorney in particular, you can imagine why this is a pretty significant story. Can you think of a time when we've seen prosecutorial misconduct on such a huge stage? The entire country is watching this train wreck unfold, and to the degree that the defense bar is always somewhat eager to reinforce the idea that not everything that a prosecutor claims should be treated as the gospel truth, you can't get a better educational tool than this story. You also have the racial dynamic. This isn't the usual case of some poor black kid getting the shaft. As unfair as it may be, these kids getting screwed over is doing more to raise awareness and outrage about this issue than a thousand poor black kids getting life in prison for stealing 2 dollars and smoking a joint will ever do.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#9)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:49:35 PM EST
    Ooops. Cabbie's story just hit a bump in the road. These folks mess up every time they get on TV.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:51:37 PM EST
    I'm being to think that all the defense exculpatory evidence is a lot of smoke to taint the jury with no fire underneath. Their next step is to dig up Alex Haley to trace her roots back to Africa.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:52:44 PM EST
    The defense is asking that the records be provided directly to them, rather than to the court for an ex parte review.
    Can someone explain that for us non-legal types? What would be the reasoning for it? Does it really seem likely they will get her medical records? Isn't that confidential? I think this is just an effort to impeach the accuser's character in the media and hopefully help with the potential jury (or scare her into dropping the charges).

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#12)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 08:00:58 PM EST
    This cabbie even remembers what food they ordered but he didn't know the story was so big that he should have called the investigators. But his excellent memory was wrong on the time of his second pick-up where he described 20 boys outside and "she's just a stripper" and the car is dark blue not white. Huh?? So now we have to take his word for it that Reade swiped his own dorm card and wasn't really getting money to go back and pay the strippers (since arguing over money was such a big deal). I hope I'm not breaking rules here with all of this speculation that isn't really legal questions.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:07:46 PM EST
    Typical defense lawyer harassment of the rape victim. Humiliate her, try to get her to drop the case. And people wonder why rape is the most underreported crime. Nice lawyerly language there, "there's a good chance...[she] may have been committed [] to a hospital or drug treatment program." A good chance? Fishing, and maybe he'll get lucky. Her mental health and substance abuse records won't matter if she was dosed with a rufi or some other date rape drug.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#14)
    by james on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:53:00 PM EST
    "Typical defense lawyer harassment of the rape victim." Determining how credible an accuser is should be something sought after. Part of that is her mental status. It certainly does matter if, for example, she had paranoid schizophrenia, a history of blackouts, history of drug use/abuse, etc. That said, the defense is putting this out as more of a publicity 'stunt'. Any information that is revealed to a jury will go before a NC judge before ever seeing the jury. And I doubt much of anything will - assuming that this ever goes that far. When I mean 'stunt' I am implying that the defence wishes to bait the News and Observer into checking up on her mental history (and the rest of the media). I'm sure they have a pretty good idea already about 'her'. I live in the area and the entire thing is a circus. Today was the second day since the N&O began running with the story that it did not appear in the paper. I was pleasantly surprised. Mostly, though, it's relevant because if she has a history of not remembering things when she's high/drunk/whatever then her identification is even more suspect. The identification is what the case hinges on at this point.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#15)
    by james on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:59:38 PM EST
    "Her mental health and substance abuse records won't matter if she was dosed with a rufi or some other date rape drug." I would imagine that the defense would like to know if she had high levels of coke/meth/heroin/etc in her blood stream. Even if she was slipped a rufi but she also had the above and alcohol the problem for Nifong would be that her identification would be in shatters. They would like to show that she was inebriated to an extent that identification was not possible. The rufis could show up, but it doesn't matter - they're charged with rape, not slipping a rufi. And if she was and he knew about it....Nifong would have told the press. This is really just an identification issue. And the idea is that she is an addict of some sort perhaps with mental issues as well. Given the 3 x week one-on-one dates and the stripping, it's hard for me to believe that she's doing that all for her kids. I know plenty of single mothers who manage to get buy with government support for their kids and federal aid for school. As she made 400 for one night at the party, I've always wondered where the money is going.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#16)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 10:33:28 PM EST
    As she made 400 for one night at the party, I've always wondered where the money is going
    She probably only takes 50% of the fee, that's a typical escort - agency split, plus any tips the client gives her. Her agency charged $200 an hour. So she takes home a $100 fee on a typical one hour "date".
    I would imagine that the defense would like to know if she had high levels of coke/meth/heroin/etc in her blood stream.
    The defense is not just asking for info about her state of health that specific night, but her alleged "drug abuse" "history", and they claim on "information and belief" that she "suffered from mental and emotional problems". That "information and belief" language signals that they have absolutely no evidence to support these claims. The only thing they can point to is fact she was intoxicated during her prior arrest. This sounds like a fishing expedition, and it is phrased and made public so as to smear her in the press. I don't know the law about whether this is discoverable in a criminal case, but I suspect not. Perhaps TL or some criminal atty can elighten us. The prosecution would be entitled to the medical and educational records of the two acccused Lacrosse players based on analgous reasoning, that they were known alcohol abusers, and in Finnerty's case an assaulter. I wonder if those records would be subject to subpoena. I suspect not.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 10:57:11 PM EST
    What menta health? "I live in The USA", we don't have any of that kind of thing here, guy! see: Bush he talks to god each day. the world is ending on may 26.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:16:44 PM EST
    the world is ending on may 26
    Well, thanks for the warning. Dang I really wanted to see if Rove gets indicted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:37:23 PM EST
    bogan444, You wrote
    Can you think of a time when we've seen prosecutorial misconduct on such a huge stage?
    It's easy to think of prosecutors who have performed on pretty big stages. Frederick G. Katzmann (Sacco and Vanzetti), Marsha Clark (OJ), Mark Hulbert (Kobe Bryant), Moira Lasch (William Kennedy Smith), Henry Wade (Oswald, Ruby) are just my first swipe at it. I'll throw Joe McCarthy in the mix even though he probably exactly what you probably mean by a prosecutor. I'll have to do some research to see whether prosecutorial indiscretions were alleged in all these cases, but I'd be surprised if they weren't, since the term refers to a pretty big collection of behaviors. If allegations of prosecutorial misconduct have a good track record defense-wise, (Wikipedia has it that "the defense has been successful roughly 1 out of 6 times it has been used from 1970 to 2003") I suspect that it is because certain types of prosecutorial misconduct aren't merely violations of the lawyer's code of ethics, but are also violations of explicit constitutional and statutory expressions. I'm thinking in terms of keeping exculpatory evidence from the defense, for example. Or suborning perjury. Nofing's pre-trial publicity statements, to the extent that they can be framed as misconduct, may well be prejudicial, but I don't think you'll find defense lawyers betting their retainers that the statements will make or break this case. Does anyone believe that an appeal's court would overturn a guilty verdict on the grounds that the DA thinks the Duke lacrosse players are "hooligans?" Much of this banter is just the legalistic equivalent of "churning" in the financial industries, justified on the grounds that it is unethical for lawyers to give less than their all. (I can hear the sweet ka-ching, ka-ching of cash registers in the distance, ah, sweet commerce!) Allegations of prosecutorial misconduct are, I would think, the rule rather than the exception in high profile cases. What makes this case news is really the blue wall. Can anyone think of examples of a wall this wide? Did the My Lai massacre investigators get this little help from witnesses? It's your turn Bogan444.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:59:03 AM EST
    Teresa said:
    So now we have to take his word for it that Reade swiped his own dorm card and wasn't really getting money to go back and pay the strippers (since arguing over money was such a big deal).
    I dont understand, how does any of this affect REade? Wouldnt the Cabbie would have remembered whether he took Reade back to the house to pay the strippers? And what does apying strippers have to do with a rape?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:35:16 AM EST
    Hi SupaMike, You wrote:
    I dont understand, how does any of this affect REade? Wouldnt the Cabbie would have remembered whether he took Reade back to the house to pay the strippers? And what does apying strippers have to do with a rape?
    There are still quite a few things we can't confirm. For example, I have the impression that while Bissey saw the dancer's car drive away, he didn't actually count the dancers in it. I can't actually find a first-hand account in which he claims to have seen the strippers with his own eyes after his e-mail check... The cab driver DOES seem to have seen one of the dancers get in the car, (at least that is a fair interpretation) but he makes no mention of seeing a second one. Bissey DID claim to see the accusing dancer exit the car to return to the house for her shoe. The defense has presented a timeline that portrays her attempts to retrieve her shoe as occurring after the supposed rape. But if we don't bite so heavily at their interpretations, a sensible case can be made for the idea that the pictures of the dancer outside the house were taken before the time the alleged rape occurred. If the sequence of photos of the dancer taken between 12:30 and 12:41 actually were taken between 12:20 and 12:30, then this timeline makes sense of the fact that the dancer's makeup kit and cell phone were eventually discovered in the house. The idea that the time-stamps in the photographs have been in some way validated by defense experts is one which we are asked to trust. We have no such duty, nor should we. Between 12:41 and 1:22, the time of the 911 call from the supermarket, is a long time during which we don't definitively know the location of the accuser/dancer. 41 minutes. 52 if the timestamps are corrected toward Bissey's account. If the prosecution pronounced that the rape occurred between 12:50 and 1:15, would Seligman's alibi be a help to him?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:57:39 AM EST
    How will the world handle the fact that the innocent choir boys were in trouble before the harlot charged them with rape. I am sure they were innocent of those charges too. They only accepted the deferrments to spare the feelings of the good members of the community. It will be interesting to see how their apologists (including TL) spin the previous charges.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:05:20 AM EST
    A quick show of hands. How many men in this blog have ever urinated outdoors (and not in a port-a-potty)? Those of you who have pissed in public, how many of you subsequently committed rape? Not very scientific but let's tally the results.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:05:59 AM EST
    I will go first. Several instances of urinating in public 20 years ago, never cited. Never committed rape.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:46:49 AM EST
    Jade flippantly said:
    It will be interesting to see how their apologists (including TL) spin the previous charges.
    Ever been to college? If so, did you ever look around? Peeing behind a 7-11 or having a beer in the car do not make one a rapist. Even with the slipperiest of slopes, that silly leap in logic doesn't happen.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:48:13 AM EST
    Science is over-rated. Dershowitz famously argued that it was irrelevant that OJ had beaten Nicole, because the incidence of wife-beaters who go on to kill their wives is so low. The relevant question for jurors, framed properly, was "given that his wife was murdered, and that she was beaten by OJ, what is the likelihood that he was her killer." The answer, just on statistical grounds, is something over 50%. Translated into analogy... Assuming that the dancer was raped, and that many of the suspects in that rape have been caught urinating outside, what is the likelihood that one of the urinators was involved in the rape? Pretty much an unimportant correlation I would think. But at least its framed better.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#29)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:01:39 AM EST
    I wonder if there are photos of these players at the party? Maybe Nifong can use these cases to get the photos.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:10:57 AM EST
    I feel sorry for all of the people that really want to believe Nifong's charges in this case. It is an uphill battle on an imaginary hill.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:22:32 AM EST
    Under what circumstances can the defence lawyers request for the accuser's escort agency records to see if she had previous dates prior to the party?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:34:53 AM EST
    A quick show of hands. How many men in this blog have ever urinated outdoors (and not in a port-a-potty)? Those of you who have pissed in public, how many of you subsequently committed rape?
    Yes I have my hand raised, to have taken a leak outside, and have written my name in the snow. But I have never raped anyone...How can I be considered a rapist, becuz I take a leak outside?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:34:58 AM EST
    Fred Dawes.... the world is ending on may 26. Did your dog tell you that? Bummer...I have tickets to the Indy 500 Jlvngstn... Those of you who have pissed in public, how many of you subsequently committed rape? I would imagine at least 100 times. ...never did rape anybody though I did participate in a gang bang once.(consensual of course)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:37:24 AM EST
    I feel sorry for all of the people that really want to believe Nifong's charges in this case. It is an uphill battle on an imaginary hill.
    I 2nd that motion. At first I thought some lawyers on TL were just testing their lawyer skills, but it seems that many of them have some emotional ties to this case...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:44:40 AM EST
    PB, I know it's common wisdom that OJ killed Nicole, but if you look at the autopsy and read the testimony of the coroners who testified, there was no aspiration, no blood in her mouth or sinuses. Considering that the throat wound cut all the way to her spinal column and bisected her epiglottis, and that she was bled out, that means, quite simply, she was neither breathing nor bleeding, i.e., she was dead before her throat was cut. Likewise, Goldman had only about a half cup of blood in his chest cavity, meaning that the back wound to his artery was done after he had bled out. Go figure out a scenario where Simpson stabbed two victims in the side of the neck, kept them from moving around for minutes until they passed out, then waited another five minutes for them to completely bleed out. Then cut Nicole's throat. Then lifted up Goldman, stabbed him in the back and rested him against a tree stump. Then Simpson went home, cleaned up and caught his limo to the airport. Yeah, I saw the Hertz commercials too. I'm sure that the autopsies and trial must still be online somewhere. Google them. Science is overrated, especially when it gets in the way. That's what our President says and God talks to him.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#36)
    by John Mann on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:45:58 AM EST
    I did participate in a gang bang once.(consensual of course)
    Did he respect you in the morning?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#37)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:54:42 AM EST
    Hey BB, This article is on gang rape, not consensual "gang banging" - just a heads up:
    I think there is something sexual going on in gang rape, and it's not necessarily sex with a woman, because in gang rape the woman is really not there as a human being -- she is the vessel through which men are having sex with each other," said Messner. "The sexual dynamic that gets set up through joking with each other, and competing with each other, is a sort of a heterosexual erotic bond among the men. A woman in a gang rape is often used as a way to consummate that erotic bond among men," Messner said.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:54:56 AM EST
    Exactly Supamike. The press and others are taking shots at the "choir boys" because they were cited for urinating in public. It neither goes to their innocence or their guilt and only to cast a negative light on the young men. Being that there is no leap either way we are faced with the same darned question, why release the names of anyone until innocence or guilt is PROVEN? Is the woman any more prone to lying about rape because she stole a car and ran from the police? If there is a jump to conclusion over petty crimes versus felonies I would say the men have a stronger case that the woman fabricated the story. Pushing the stories about both sides has grown very tired in my estimation and until these men are proven guilty, it is horsepucky that their names are being dragged through the mud and speculation of their "criminal backgrounds" is as ridiculous as the aforementioned comparison.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#39)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:55:38 AM EST
    The alleged victim was taken from Kim's car at the Kroger's parking lot to a "substance abuse center," what used to be called a drunk tank, before she was taken to the hospital for the rape tests. It's possible that someone at the drunk tank realized she had been drugged and at that point the AV had regained coherency and was able to state that she had been raped. Or, if she were still on probation for stealing the car and one of the restrictions involved her drinking (a key aspect of her stealing the taxi cab), she may have felt the need to deflect attention from her condition. In early accounts Nifong suggested a date rape drug. If there was any suggestion by the victim that she'd been slipped something, it would seem that a blood test should have been run. If there is no drug, point for the defense. If there is a narcotic or some tranquilizer most likely self-administered, another point for the defense. If someone wanted her to take a blood test and/or urine test and she refused, more points for the defense. If she took the test and there were traces of rufies or some other date rape type of drug, that would suggest that someone was planning a rape, which would be a big point for the prosecution. That we have seen nothing more substantial from the two sides other than Nifong's early comments is curious.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#40)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:05:01 AM EST
    All right, as long as we're asking questions... What's the percentage of women with injuries consistent with rape and assault who were actually raped and assaulted?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:06:18 AM EST
    FYI, even though the media has labled it the 'date-rape drug', a TON of people take rufies on purpose, and it is very addictive. The market for rufies is not for some imaginary insane amount of people who constantly date-rape people, it's for the addicts. To assume the presence of GHB, Burundanga, or Rohypnol means someone "slipped it to them", is naive at best, and wrong for sure.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:09:16 AM EST
    Folks seem to assume that she must have been drugged to behave the way she did. If she was raped and assaulted, she could have been in shock. There is no reason to assume she would behave normally.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#43)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:16:03 AM EST
    11:07 EST Fox News is reporting: June 15, 2006 hearing set for Collin Finnerty in Georgetown assault charges. Trial date of July 10, 2006 set for Collin Finnerty in Georgetown assault charges despite Finnerty's attorneys asking that this trial not go forward before the Durham case goes forward. Restrictions on Finnerty: 9pm - 6am curfew Must stay away from locations where alcohol is served, sold or consumed Can't go near DC assault victim Can not change residence w/o 72 hours notice to authorities Every Friday must check in with authorities

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:27:10 AM EST
    Is anyone else afraid of the slippery slope we're going down by looking into the medical records of people during cases? Unless she was institutionalized, I say the judge shouldn't allow this. When I went through my divorce, I saught the help of a counselor - who referred me to get drugs (so she could make money) - I had to fight pretty hard to still see her without it. Almost offered to pay her under the table. Sadly decided the counseling wasn't worth the risk of being later labelled as unstable. Another time I had a slipped disk and went to a doc to get a perscription for anti-inflammitories. Find out when I get to the pharmacy he also perscribed oxycontin. I didn't know wht it was so I asked the pharmacist. Great - now I'm also a potential pill popper just because some quack wanted to pad his perscription kickbacks. Once something's on your medical record, it's impossible to get rid of. My ex-wife can't get insurance because during the divorce she was perscribed anti-depressants. There is no way that the lawyers should be granted access to medical records. Everyone has been vicitmized by quack docs' aggressive diagnoses wanting to get more $$$.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:30:20 AM EST
    Bob wrote:
    PB, I know it's common wisdom that OJ killed Nicole
    My comment wasn't a comment on whether OJ was guilty. It was comment on the abuse of statistics by advocates.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#46)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:31:07 AM EST
    Perhaps some college males pee in public, throw trash in other peoples yards, get drunk, use drugs, and get loud and disorderly. Very few are stupid enough, careless enough or arrogant enough to get arrested for it. Here we've got 14 our of 46 with arrest records.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#47)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:33:28 AM EST
    Lora, people behave differently when in shock, but the alleged victim was described by the cop as passed out drunk Roberts' car at the Kroger's. She apparently had had problems navigating the stairs at the frat house. The cop at Kroger's initially took her to the substance abuse center because she was unable to tell him where she lived. It could have been shock, but it sounds a lot like intoxication to the witnesses. The first mention of rape apparently came after the cop took possession of the alleged victim, either on the way to the substance abuse center or after they got there. (Roberts has said she never told her that she had been raped.) By the way, has anyone seen a timeline by Roberts as to where she was when the two strippers got separated?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#48)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:36:46 AM EST
    PB, point taken. Too much of the discussion of the Duke case on the internet has been statistics to back up rhetoric, as opposed to the specific information as presented by the prosecution and defense, and what trickles out of witnesses.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#49)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:45:53 AM EST
    Bob,
    If there was any suggestion by the victim that she'd been slipped something, it would seem that a blood test should have been run. If there is no drug, point for the defense.
    The defense lawyers concede that the dancers were served drinks by the team. The second dancer, reportedly says they were eached offerred a mixed drink, but that she didn't drink hers. A mixed drink at a kegger? The Kroger guard reportedly says she didn't smell any alcohol on the AV.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#50)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:48:53 AM EST
    TL - how would past medical records be relevant in this case? They did a tox screen at the hospital which will show if she was under the influence. Who cares what she did in the past? How is it relevant in this case? If she did have a history of drug use does that make her more likely to lie or identify her attacker? Not unless she was under the influence at the time of the alleged attack.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:50:25 AM EST
    azbballfan,
    There is no way that the lawyers should be granted access to medical records. Everyone has been vicitmized by quack docs' aggressive diagnoses wanting to get more $$$.
    Do you always make broad generalizations that have nothing to do with the issues at hand? Why, I went to a doctor a while ago because I had collided with someone while playing Ultimate and had intense localized pain in my ribs. She told me it was simply a bruised muscle between two of my ribs and told me to get Ibuprofin at Safeway. Fancy that. Perhaps because she wasn't one of those evil, urinate-in-public, males she declined to rip me off by prescribing stuff I didn't need. The reason that we should be wary of breaching doctor-patient privilege has nothing to do with any sleazy practices by doctors with respect to kick-backs from drug manufacturers. It has everything to do with the fact that none of us should have to fear to seek medical help because some human failing might be used as incriminating evidence by some overzealous DA. It does look to me like a fishing expedition, and perhaps the defence should do some real work and find other people to corroborate their speculations first. Of course, this whole thing looks like a frenzied hunt for the great white defendant to me.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#52)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:50:40 AM EST
    Bob ib Pacifica posted:
    It's possible that someone at the drunk tank realized she had been drugged and at that point the AV had regained coherency and was able to state that she had been raped. Or, if she were still on probation for stealing the car and one of the restrictions involved her drinking (a key aspect of her stealing the taxi cab), she may have felt the need to deflect attention from her condition.
    On her 2003 conviction:
    Under a deal with prosecutors, she pleaded guilty to four misdemeanors in the car chase: larceny, speeding to elude arrest, assault on a government official and DWI, according to court records. She was required to serve three consecutive weekends in jail and was placed on two years' probation. She paid restitution and court costs, and completed her probation.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#53)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:50:58 AM EST
    Speaking of mental health records, what about discovering the mental health records and hate speech history of Ryan McFayden and the rest of the team? That email could be characterized as very sick and woman hating. The fact that he felt comfortable sending it to the team, and the team responses didn't find it out of the ordinary (from the defense attys) suggests they might all have the mental makeup to be potential rapists. I'm using reasoning analgous to Seligman's atty here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#54)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:59:51 AM EST
    chew2, the Kroger guard said she didn't smell any alcohol on the AV, although we know that she had drinks at the party. What does that prove? Also, how close did the Kroger guard get? I'm not sure the observation has all that much weight. I thought I had heard that someone, either the guard or the cop, detected alcohol on Roberts' breath, and she claims she had had anything to drink. We know that the AV had a drink and a half at the party. Are we sure that only beer was served? Did the AV ask if they had any mixed drinks instead of beer? Mixed drinks could be suspicious, or not. It would be interesting to know who at the party gave them the drinks. A toxicology report would be helpful, too.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#55)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:01:16 AM EST
    Okay, no worries about probation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#56)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:06:36 AM EST
    Bob, I had thought you weren't aware of those reports. You obviously were. BTW the second dancer said she was the only sober one there, but did she say she didn't drink anything? BTW how likely do you think the team was having a cocktail party? I know Duke is a high class school and all, and cocktails are making a comeback with the younger set. But these were athletes and they had reportedly been drinking since the afternoon. Beer is the most likely choice.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#57)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:17:56 AM EST
    chew2, suppose the AV had been hospitalized for, say, schizophrenia. Would that be relevant? Or a severe bi-polar disorder? I don't think being depressed would help the help the defense, but something that would indicate irrational behavior or a history of drug abuse along with toxicology results indicating she'd taken something herself would weaken her story and her identifications. I think any psychiatric history of the guy who wrote the email, if he is charged, would be relevant. Sounds like a sick, woman-hating guy. Likewise, with Seligmann and Finnerty. Here's the thing, though. All of the above only is in play if the case ends up being a he said/she said case. If Seligmann's DNA is under her fingernails, or if Finnerty's DNA turns up somewhere on or in her, all bets are off. The fact that the defense has maintained from the beginning that no rape occurred strikes me as more than bravado. If they knew that some DNA of their guys could show up in the lab tests and the guys admitted to sex with her, the consenual argument would have been there from the start. That strongly suggests to me that the defense is pretty certain that no rape happened. Otherwise, it would be suicide for their clients.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#58)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:28:20 AM EST
    chew2 posted:
    Speaking of mental health records, what about discovering the mental health records and hate speech history of Ryan McFayden and the rest of the team? That email could be characterized as very sick and woman hating. The fact that he felt comfortable sending it to the team, and the team responses didn't find it out of the ordinary (from the defense attys) suggests they might all have the mental makeup to be potential rapists. I'm using reasoning analgous to Seligman's atty here.
    I like it, chew2. And the name calling, baiting and predatory nature of Finnerty's assault.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#59)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:43:44 AM EST
    chew2, They had stuff for mixed drinks there, and we know it was a frat party, not a cocktail party. People have had hard booze at frat parties, even at keggers. Was handing the strippers mixed drinks suspicious? Maybe, although I don't know what the protocol is for offering alcoholic beverages to sex industry entertainment. I've been to many social gatherings where men have offered women drinks and no rapes occurred. It could very well have been the means for someone to have slipped the AV rufies. That's why I said that the toxicology report (if, as written here by someone else, one was taken) is important. As for the reports, if the Kroger's guard said the AV didn't have alcohol on her breath (although we know she had 1 and 1/2 drinks around midnight), but the cop who had checked her to make sure she wasn't in distress or not breathing said she was just passed out drunk, what do we make of the two conflicting reports? We know the AV was taken to the drunk tank before she was taken to the hospital, so the cop continued to believe for some time that the AV was merely in some way intoxicated and did not observe that she was in shock or raped. It doesn't mean she wasn't, but it does indicate that the cop thought her problem was that she was intoxicated. Kim Roberts has said she didn't drink anything at the party. Some mouth washes and breath mints may smell like drink to others. Without a test and without anything that suggests Roberts was impaired, I can't think of a reason why we shouldn't accept Roberts' own report of her sobriety. It seems irrelevant. What I would like is an explanation of where Roberts was when she and the other stripper were separated (as the AV contends), and what Roberts' estimate of the time was. Nifong had suggested early on that the rape had occurred when the AV had returned to the house to retrieve her belongings, before the two left. That would seem to make it after 12:30, which would seem to leave Seligmann out of the picture. If lots of the partygoers were outside at the time arguing with Roberts, would the house have been empty enough for three men to have pulled the AV into the bathroom and committed a rape without a witness? I don't know, but that would seem more likely than the midnight to 12:30 window.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#60)
    by Teresa on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:05:31 AM EST
    The fact that the defense has maintained from the beginning that no rape occurred strikes me as more than bravado. If they knew that some DNA of their guys could show up in the lab tests and the guys admitted to sex with her, the consenual argument would have been there from the start. That strongly suggests to me that the defense is pretty certain that no rape happened. Otherwise, it would be suicide for their clients.
    Bob, I agree with this statement. I want to go on the record and state that I think the odds that this rape happened are very very low. I just feel a need to argue for the underdog (usually the defendent). But I will never understand why the entire group other than the 3 captains refused to come forward before this became the big deal that it has become. I realize that is their legal right but it makes no sense to me.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#61)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:16:39 AM EST
    Judge Rules Duke Player Violated Conditions Of D.C. Diversion Program
    McCool brought up issues of due process during the hearings, saying he thought it would be prejudicial to try the case before the Duke rape case moved forward. He wanted to move the trial date to August. In addition to the new trial dates, the Washington D.C. judge also set new restrictions for Finnerty and the other suspects. Under some of those restrictions, they must follow a 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew, stay at least 50 feet from Bloxgom and refrain from going any place where alcohol is sold, served or consumed.
    Collin's rape charges effected his DC assault co-defendants? Seems harsh.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#62)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:21:12 AM EST
    Teresa, I don't know if the DA asked everyone at the party to come forward initially. I'm not a lawyer, but I was a shop steward and a union officer at my work for twenty years, and the first thing I would advise anyone who was being questioned is to wait for representation. Guilty or innocent, I've seen too many people who want to be helpful to the authorities (or Authority) who end up admitting to something else or something that they didn't even do.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#63)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:22:32 AM EST
    beenaround Balanced post - I agree with your statement but will reiterate that even if they get her medical records - those should not be given much credence as medical practitioners rarely have the quality of their work reviewed. It sounds like you've had good experiences with doctors. I'll tell you that in my case, over 80% of the time, I get a quack - including the time I broke my leg and the doc wouldn't get an x-ray because she didn't think I was in enough pain. I had to go out of the insurance network and pay a doc cash to xray my leg and give me a cast. Now an over zealous attorney could use the original doc's assessment to indicate that I was a hypochondriac. Anyway - I realize that the majority of people out there trust their docs - which is fine. "Of course, this whole thing looks like a frenzied hunt for the great white defendant to me." Yes, this is the case - however please note that Duke University and it's alumns go out of their way to present themselves as an elite educational institution which maintains high standards of conduct. These boys are official representatives of the University. The frenzied hunt is to find facts which point out that Duke students and alumns are subject to making the same mistakes as are found everywhere else.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:44:40 AM EST
    But I will never understand why the entire group other than the 3 captains refused to come forward before this became the big deal that it has become. I realize that is their legal right but it makes no sense to me.
    It is impossible to say this without sounding like an arse but I will say it anyway: Speaking to police without an attorney is STUPID. You are afforded the right to speak to an attorney and every person SHOULD do so. The last thing one needs is to have their words taken out of context, to be lied to "colin just confessed that you raped her" etc (which only causes people to make sh*t up about someone else to cover their own arse). One should NOT have a black cloud over their head because they utilized their US given right to speak to the police only with an attorney present and those of you who have a problem with that can all eat dung.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#65)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:51:27 AM EST
    We know the AV was taken to the drunk tank before she was taken to the hospital, so the cop continued to believe for some time that the AV was merely in some way intoxicated and did not observe that she was in shock or raped. It doesn't mean she wasn't, but it does indicate that the cop thought her problem was that she was intoxicated.
    The police officer may have been predisposed to think the accuser was drunk. The 911 call from the security guard contained the information that she was "fairly drunk." Had they said she is diabetic, epileptic or had just been beaten and raped his assessment of her condition may have been different. That said, it sounds like she was intoxicated. But on what? When asked if the doctors would have blood tested the accuser for intoxication, a former federal judge who is a commentator on Fox News:
    If there is evidence of incoherence they are medically obliged under their medical ethics to take a blood sample so they know whether they are speaking to a person who can answer their questions.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:03:39 AM EST
    Right on Jl, right on.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#67)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:05:20 AM EST
    Bob, Whether the AV was drunk or drugged was always a question I hoped would have been answered by medical tests performed at the Duke medical center that night. I've asked what is standard procedure in those circumstances, but don't have an answer. Now I'm not so sure. I'm worried that definitive tests weren't done, especially wrt to the date rape drug. I'm going to speculate that any tests showed that the AV was not drunk, otherwise I don't think the DA would have pursued this case so aggressively, since it apparently relies so much on her testimony and recollection. Regarding the denials of a rape by the attorneys. I'm not aware of a specific quoted denial that no sex occurred, although I recall an early news story to that effect. But I haven't kept up with all the coverage. So I'm not sure the defense attys have foreclosed such a defense based on consent. Moreover, each atty has to work with what his client has told them. I'm assuming that the clients who are most at risk have denied a rape occcurred and may also have denied any sex occurred. They may not be telling the truth. (It's hard to keep up with which quoted atty is representing which team member and many of the quotes are from un-named attys.) So the confidence of the attys claim that no DNA would be found may be based on those denials. Note also that the defense attys have not specifically denied in quoted language that an assault, robbery, or spiking of the AV's drink. occurred. Again unless I missed something which is certainly possible. BTW are you in the fog belt or sun belt part of Pacifica?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#68)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:10:29 AM EST
    One should NOT have a black cloud over their head because they utilized their US given right to speak to the police only with an attorney present and those of you who have a problem with that can all eat dung.
    As I understand it they refused to speak to the police and DA even with their attys present.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#69)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:11:59 AM EST
    "One should NOT have a black cloud over their head because they utilized their US given right to speak to the police only with an attorney present and those of you who have a problem with that can all eat dung." JL - up until the end, your post is very accurate - noone should waive their rights to counsel. However, in this instance, the players should expect to undergo extreme public scrutiny if they chose to be represented by a lawyer. The fact that all the players are hiding behind lawyers indicates knowledge of a crime. The public have a right to protect their community by voicing their outrage in order to compel the students to cooperate. The public outrage will help heighten awareness of inappropriate behavior. The student atheletes will pay a price for enjoying the privilege of quality legal representation. There is no requirement for the public to accept the legal minimum for decorum.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#70)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:20:25 AM EST
    When asked if the doctors would have blood tested the accuser for intoxication, a former federal judge who is a commentator on Fox News:
    Isn't that former judge (with an italian name), like many of the Fox commentators, an idiot? He claimed that even if a condom was used, DNA tests would show both latex residue and DNA because the fingers of the male had touched the condom. CSI fans enlighten me. Sounds fanciful to me.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#71)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:25:04 AM EST
    chew2 asked:
    Isn't that former judge (with an italian name), like many of the Fox commentators, an idiot?
    I think his name is Andrew Napolitano. Yes, I have heard him say all kinds of idiotic things.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#72)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:26:28 AM EST
    suppose the AV had been hospitalized for, say, schizophrenia. Would that be relevant?
    Perhaps, but there isn't any evidence suggesting that is the case here. You could say the same thing as to the accused or any accuser as to any crime not just this one. I don't think the judge allows such broad fishing expeditions, and it's being raised here by the defense to color the publics perception.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#73)
    by Teresa on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:30:30 AM EST
    As I understand it they refused to speak to the police and DA even with their attys present.
    That's what I meant J. My late brother was a defense attorney/public defender. Maybe it's just me but I would have taken him with me and talked to the police.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:45:36 AM EST
    That our legal justice system has its faults, I don't think anyone will dispute. That the players, by acting within our legal justice system are thereby "bad" people, is poppycock. What they know or don't know will be displayed at the trial, as it should be.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#75)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:45:41 AM EST
    Regarding the denials of a rape by the attorneys. I'm not aware of a specific quoted denial that no sex occurred, although I recall an early news story to that effect.
    This is Nifong commenting on what I assume is the interviews conducted with the three captains that lived at the party house - Flannery, Evans, and Zash. Abrams Report
    ABRAMS: Are you convinced there was a rape here? NIFONG: I am convinced that there was a rape, yes, sir. ABRAMS: And why are you so convinced of that? NIFONG: The circumstances of the case are not suggestive of the alternate explanation that has been suggested by some of the members of the situation. There is evidence of trauma in the victim's vaginal area that was noted when she was examined by a nurse at the hospital. And her general demeanor was suggestive of the fact that she had been through a traumatic situation. ABRAMS: When you say an alternate explanation that's being offered by some of the people who were there, what is that? NIFONG: Well, I don't want to go into a lot of the details of the evidence right now, but obviously, the story that these people were hired to dance and were asked to leave is the alternate story. ABRAMS: So that there was no sexual activity at all is the alternate story? NIFONG: That would be the alternate story.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:53:58 AM EST
    Defense lawyers assert that no assault and no sex, coerced or otherwise, took place the night of March 14.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#77)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:01:54 PM EST
    SUO, The article you link to contains no quoted language from any named atty. I'll take it that they are claiming no sex occured. The use of the word "assault" is less clear. Were they referring just to sexual assault. Again lawyers use weasel language. Let me see a quote from a named attorney speaking on behalf of a named party.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:15:48 PM EST
    Abrams Report
    ABRAMS: Ms. Sutton, would you agree with that, that your client, as well, was at this party? KERRY SUTTON, ATTY FOR DUKE LACROSSE CAPT. MATT ZASH: My client was at the party and he is one of the residents of that house.
    ~snip~
    SUTTON: My client certainly denies that he had sex of any kind with this alleged victim, and to his knowledge, nobody at all at the house had sex with any of the women who were there.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:15:53 PM EST
    In regard to those who doubt that college students drink mixed drinks, well, they do. One reason is because there is a crackdown on drinking at most colleges, yet students still find a way. It's a lot easier to buy, transport, and hide a handle of vodka than it is to sneak around carrying a keg or a couple of cases of beer.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#80)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:36:10 PM EST
    SUTTON (atty for Zash): My client certainly denies that he had sex of any kind with this alleged victim, and **to his knowledge, nobody at all at the house had sex with any of the women who were there**.
    A lawyerly denial indeed. Isn't it reported that Matt Zash claimed he had spend most of the night in his bedroom, and so really didn't know what had happened that night.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#81)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:53:28 PM EST
    So if someone exercises their RIGHT to choose counsel, they should undergo a public trial in the media irrespective of their guilt/innocence? Such horsepucky. Sounds like blackmail to me. You may have an attorney present, however if you choose to have an attorney we are going to leak a bunch of crap out there to make you look bad. Now do you really want an attorney? Innocent until proven guilty. Say that once or a thousand times, whichever will help you understand it. SUO - Is it just me or is this the most overrated story of the decade? I mean right next to Natalee Holloway this one takes the cake.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#82)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:53:56 PM EST
    TalkLeft posted:
    Some things that might be different in this case: The accuser was first taken by police from Krogers to a psychiatric unit. An hour later, they took her to the medical center to be examined for rape.
    From the May 1, 2006 Newsweek article:
    Police logs show that the woman was taken to the Duke hospital at 2:31 a.m., after a stop at a substance-abuse center, and that she claimed she had been raped. She was examined by a sexual-assault nurse and likely given a battery of blood and urine tests.
    Why would the officer who thought she was "just passed-out drunk" take her to a psychiatric unit? Did he think she was "crazy' or "drunk?" Is this a combined substance-abuse center/mental health facility? ESPN's confidential source at the hospital described her as hysterical.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:26:09 PM EST
    Jl, it's keeping my interest only because I've learned more about our criminal legal system due to these Duke threads than I ever knew before. Oh, and the fact that there seems to be a major turning point released every couple days to keep us on the hook...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#84)
    by Scrutinizer on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:29:31 PM EST
    azbballfan muttered:
    However, in this instance, the players should expect to undergo extreme public scrutiny if they chose to be represented by a lawyer. The fact that all the players are hiding behind lawyers indicates knowledge of a crime. The public have a right to protect their community by voicing their outrage in order to compel the students to cooperate. The public outrage will help heighten awareness of inappropriate behavior. The student atheletes will pay a price for enjoying the privilege of quality legal representation. There is no requirement for the public to accept the legal minimum for decorum.
    So, you're saying that exercising one's right to legal counsel == knowledge of a crime? Kinda like "If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't need to worry?" If someone does exercise his/her right to counsel and to remain silent, they should be hounded by an outraged public until they are made to give up their right to silence? That's the type of thinking that's given us the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act. "If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#85)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:58:34 PM EST
    chew2, I'm about a mile and a half inland from Marina Del Mar, which is generally pretty sunny. Of course, we just got out of two straight months of rain... Regarding someone's motive to actions, it's pretty clear why an accused would deny committing a crime whether or not he committed it. It's logical to presume that there's got to be some good reason for someone to claim a crime was committed. But people are curious creatures. People make bad decisions for all sorts of reasons. Maybe she was afraid of some consequence of being so intoxicated of which we don't know. Maybe she had a blackout and thought something must have happened. Maybe she was angry at the men at the party. None of these reasons are particularly logical reasons to falsely accuse anyone, but people aren't always logical. I once represented a guy who was accused of assaulting two different female supervisors of his. It turns out the main "assault" wasn't an assault at all and that supervisor was trying to make an existing condition job-related in order to a worker's comp claim. The second "assault" was an add-on from the other supervisor. It hadn't happened at all, there were witnesses that nothing had happened, but it was thrown into the mix to make the case against the guy more serious. To add to it, the guy who was accused was a bad guy, just not for that. Having said that, I'm not sure that a rape didn't occur or that someone didn't slip her something, but unless his alibi comes apart it seems like Seligmann probably is innocent.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#86)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:13:26 PM EST
    humble, At around 1:20 at Kroger's the AV seemed to be intoxicated to the guard, the cop and to Roberts. She was apparently incapable of telling the officer where she lived. That's why she was taken to the substance abuse center. It may also have been called a psychiatric unit. In the old days they called it a drunk tank. This is the first that I've heard about her being hysterical at the hospital, but I am sure that witnesses are being deposed so how she conducted herself at the hospital will be a matter of record. But a calm demeanor does not prove a rape didn't happen and hysteria doesn't prove it did. I would guess that at some point after the cop left Kroger's with her she had to have said to him or to someone at the center that she'd been raped.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#87)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:18:26 PM EST
    Bob
    Having said that, I'm not sure that a rape didn't occur or that someone didn't slip her something, but unless his alibi comes apart it seems like Seligmann probably is innocent.
    I tend to agree with you about Seligman. But recall Tony McDevitt looks very similar to Seligman, and reportedly was in the second group of players picked up by the cab driver at the end of the party. Initially, I didn't think avoiding a drunk charge was much of a motive to fabricate such a rape charge even if poeple do impulsive stupid things when drunk. Especially, since she apparently didn't really firm up her charges until the next day or two when she was cold sober, after seeing her father. She said that thinking of her father is what gave her the courage to go forward. Now I'm not so sure. But I think it just as likely (or unlikely), that the team members would lie for each other out of solidarity so as not to ruin the life of one of their own, and because they didn't think a black stripper deserves much respect as a human being.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#88)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:22:05 PM EST
    Bob,
    but I am sure that witnesses are being deposed so how she conducted herself at the hospita
    I asked this before, but are depositions availble in criminal cases? I thought that was only for civil discovery. BTW the report of her being excited (I don't recall "hysterical") was in an ESPN article.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#89)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:34:08 PM EST
    At around 1:20 at Kroger's the AV seemed to be intoxicated to the guard, the cop and to Roberts. She was apparently incapable of telling the officer where she lived. That's why she was taken to the substance abuse center.
    Well, it's not like he would have taken her home, maybe to jail instead of the drunk tank. She couldn't tell Kim Roberts where she lived or Kim would have taken her home. I doubt this ever would have been reported if that had happened. I was just wondering why TalkLeft used the term "psychiatric unit." I hadn't seen the term used in conjunction with this case. That's why I wondered:
    Is this a combined substance-abuse center/mental health facility?
    Here is the ESPN article If true, the neck bruising is interesting. Kinda hard to bruise your neck by falling down.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#90)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:36:05 PM EST
    JL "You may have an attorney present, however if you choose to have an attorney we are going to leak a bunch of crap out there to make you look bad. Now do you really want an attorney? Innocent until proven guilty. Say that once or a thousand times, whichever will help you understand it." "In a court of law, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty". You only have to say it once to understand - try it. The court of public opinion is different. Despite the fact that OJ wasn't proven guilty, we still have the right to condemn him and use the case as a public outcry against violence. It's all fine for them to hire an attorney - but why refuse to talk even with an attorney present? Yes, they have the right - but we also have the right to question motives behind a huge wall of silence. Yes, it does implicate a crime was commmitted - the implication could not be made in a court of law - but the public has the right to draw it's own conclusions. If the players are tired of the public scrutiny - why not come forward and provide testimony to the police? Why? - Why? - Why? - say it a thousand times and you'll start to get the gist.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:56:06 PM EST
    Because they have a RIGHT to counsel. Unfortunately, NO ONE has a right to privacy at this moment that protects them from the MONEY GRUBBING PROSTITUES that call themselves the media, nor do they have any protection from GOSSIP MONGERS like yourself.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#92)
    by Scrutinizer on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:56:56 PM EST
    azbballfan moaned:
    If the players are tired of the public scrutiny - why not come forward and provide testimony to the police? Why? - Why? - Why? - say it a thousand times and you'll start to get the gist.
    Because nothing compels them to, and especially because the potential for legal and criminal charges is a lot worse than public scrutiny which will go away when the next MWW case comes up.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:59:50 PM EST
    Which of course has been my point all along. Their identity should be kept secret until the trial has concluded as should the way they exercise their rights under the laws of this country. I have officially changed my mind, they should go after this woman with every ounce of energy they can muster and if they are soliciting donations I will make certain to send a grand. It is no longer about their innocence or guilt, however it is about their right to privacy until judged accordingly. I will research the legal teams and provide the information on where to send your money to in case anyone else feels like supporting them in light of the crappy system we have.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:00:32 PM EST
    Why would you need an attorney if you did nothing wrong? Because the police will try and ruin your life for the fun of it otherwise. They will confiscate your computer, phone records, email, and personal mail. Look at McFadyen. As for why they wouldn't talk to the police, it doesn't sound like the police want to talk to anyone. If they did all they would have to do is subpoena them to appear in front of the grand jury. As far as I have heard, the police have never requested to interview either Seligmann or Finnerty. Nifong assumed that he would have DNA evidence and that was all he was going to need. That's why he never had an interview or tried for an ID until 3 weeks after the attack.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:02:58 PM EST
    Comments are closing here, you can continue the discussion at the new thread.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental (none / 0) (#23)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    Prosecutor Plans To Reinstate Charges Against Players
    DURHAM, N.C. -- Some Duke University lacrosse players were facing deferred misdemeanor charges prior to a March 13 party where a woman said she was raped. Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong said those misdemeanor charges may be reinstated because those players participated in the party, which may violate conditions of the deferrals.

    Duke Lacrosse Defendant Seeks Accuser's Mental Health Records | 94 comments (94 topical)