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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:51:41 AM EST
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It's time for our Tuesday Open Thread. You can pick the topics and dicuss what you want. I'll be around and not around for most of the day.

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 108 comments (108 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:43:21 AM EST
    Least we forget, if only briefly. As applicable today as then. Suicide in the Trenches I knew a simple soldier boy Who grinned at life in empty joy, Slept soundly through the lonesome dark, And whistled early with the lark. In winter trenches, cowed and glum With crumps and lice and lack of rum, He put a bullet through his brain. No one spoke of him again. You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye Who cheer when soldier lads march by, Sneak home and pray you'll never know The hell where youth and laughter go. Seigfreid Sassoon 1918

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:07:01 AM EST
    Good choice of poems this morning, Oscar...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:10:48 AM EST
    "The relationship between stopping the world and not-doing in Carlos Castaneda's Journey to Ixtlan is here discussed.":
    We are men born into a world that we cannot possibly comprehend in its awesome totality. We are cultural animals, and so are taught a system of beliefs in a process of conditioning that will allow us to function properly in the society of our fellows. This system is a world-construct, a description of the world and of reality, a paradigm of which we are members. And so, we erroneously think we are able to describe reality - the world - accurately, thereby comprehending it...


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:22:36 AM EST
    Here's some interesting and illuminating insight into the Times's coverage of this story. All you nitpicky lawyers will just love it. Covering the Duke Lacrosse Team Case

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:26:37 AM EST
    Good morning edgar, it's the early bird you are. That the poem were redundant, I wish. "Reality is a state of mind that is due to a lack of alcohol" Says this much reformed character.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:35:42 AM EST
    The beauty of good poems, like good songs, is that they aren't redundant.
    And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
    And racing around to come up behind you again
    The sun is the same in the relative way, but you're older
    Shorter of breath and one day closer to death --Time
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:39:45 AM EST
    A man of discerning taste, it must be the age thing. Pray tell what time zone are you posting from?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:43:05 AM EST
    Pacific Standard Time. 4:42 AM April 25/06 It's later than we think... ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:45:52 AM EST
    Good heavens you're eight hours west of me, would live to interact but the Matriarch beckons. Anon.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:48:33 AM EST
    Not at all... 16 hours east. Look over your shoulder!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:19:17 AM EST
    Oscar, reality is a crutch for those people who cannot handle their drugs ;)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:56:31 AM EST
    Holy man and holy priest This love of life makes me weak at my knees And when we get there make your play 'cos soon I feel you're gonna carry us away In a promised lie you made us believe For many men there is so much grief And my mind is proud but it aches with rage And if I live too long I'm afraid I'll die Strangers on this road we are on We are not two we are one
    - Dave Davies

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:02:30 AM EST
    Good morning all - I note the usual suspects are talking about war and the military, a subject they know little about. In the meantime, we have terrorists attacks in Egypt killing men, women and children. I wonder what these people did to deserve the wraith of the terrorists? Did they invade Iraq? No. Did they lust after the ME's oil? No. Did they have military bases on the pennisula? Did they publish cartoons insuting the prophet? No. They were just people. But we're getting warm. Their life style didn't suit the terrorists.
    Dahab is about 40 miles north of Sharm el-Sheikh on the Gulf of Aqaba, on the east coast of the peninsula. It is known as the Goa of the Red Sea due to its bohemian lifestyle, multi-cultural beach restaurants, relaxed attitude to cannabis use and growing tourist trade.
    That's why they were killed. And who were they?
    "It is enjoying a growing popularity among foreigners and Egyptians. This week is their half-term holiday so there'll be lots of children around."
    And you think we can do business with these terrorists? If it wasn't so very sad, that would screamingly funny.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:07:41 AM EST
    Oscar, are there stray dogs that run around peeing on all the posts in you neighborhood too?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:44:27 AM EST
    Desperado, oh, you ain't gettin' no youger Your pain and your hunger, they're drivin' you home And freedom, oh freedom well, that's just some people talkin' Your prison is walking through this world all alone...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:54:26 AM EST
    Anyone else think that Bush's bluster about gas prices is a bit like a fox coming out of the hen house and saying: "I'm gonna figure out who stole the chickens! -burp-"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:10:31 AM EST
    vulgrin, I think that roosters name was Mike, wasn't it?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:13:05 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ Finding myself on the same wavelength with you is extremely disturbing, I urinate upon myself in protest. Hunt for clues after Egypt blasts I spent the afternoon in Dahab when there was almost nothing there' and it was still a totally fabulous place, further to the south is Sharm el-Sheikh a combination of Southern California like whether and Australian barrier reef like ocean. Definitely one of the best aquatic habitats I've ever visited. Not that I visited that many, but California, Florida, the Caribbean, Central America, a good sampling and when I was there it was the superior of most any other place I'd been. There is a crusader era Castle sitting on an island down there along the coast that appears as if out of a time fog, as you're driving along cliffside roads. It's one of the most fantastic things I've ever seen. ---------------------------------- Bin Laden call falls on deaf ears If bin Laden gets this conflict to spread to the Sudan, perhaps I'll get behind this war. I'm all for sending US troops into the Sudan to stop people from dying. Especially when US Marines are literally minutes away. If you're going to go die for something somewhere in the world as a soldier, I think it's always better for your karma if you do it trying to help people, as opposed to the other thing.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:15:16 AM EST
    charlie writes:
    It just may be a purely Intra-Islamic Matter. Let's see what the facts are.
    Huh? Did you bother to actually read the whole story, or even the second patagraph of what I quoted? But yes, the terrorists are well known to kill other Moslems. Many of those killed in this despicable act was Moslem. Have you, by chance perhaps, noticed how many Moslems have been killed by car bombs in Iraq? Do you remember the wedding party that was bombed in Jordan? The issue, charlie, is lifestyle. If you don't worship their way, well lookout, dude. Your, "What the facts are," is a laughable attempt to provide cover for some of the worst killers in the last 100 years. Be careful how you pet that lap dog, charlie, it has a tendancy to bite. Ask the Egyptian and Jordanian and Iraqi dead. Edger - Those are terrorist lap dogs of the Left. Feed'em some human flesh and they will go away.... for awhile.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:24:23 AM EST
    Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.... John Lennon Vulgrin....sez Anyone else think that Bush's bluster about gas prices is a bit like a fox coming out of the hen house Yeah...it's all Bush's fault!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:28:21 AM EST
    Imperialism or terrorism. It matters not to those people. If Al Qaeda didn't exist it would be necessary to invent them. Poor Jim, he rails against a band of men while his country commits genocide.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:28:40 AM EST
    Aaron writes:
    I urinate upon myself in protest.
    Hmmmm... Seems a bit odd to me, but let's hope we agree more often. If so, drink lots of ice tea and beer. ;-) Question: Why is it okay to use US wealth and military to defend people who are, sad to say, meaningless to our safety and interests while it is not okay to attack those, Iraq, Iran, etc., that do? That is the quandry of the Left. Always willing to spend someone else's money and lives on their pet problem. And before you decide to jump in, take a look at a map and see a real logistics nightmare. Of course I don't think military stuff is your true forte. BTW - I was against going into Kosovo. I saw no US interests, thought the problem should be fixed by the Europeans, and believed we would never leave...And we haven't. I told all of this to My Elected Representatives in a vigorous manner. But when it started I shut up and supported the troops.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:35:48 AM EST
    Oh and in case anyone was wondering what that bastion of rightard ethics, the NRCC, is up to...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:37:40 AM EST
    Jim, Iraq was and Iran is no threat to us. Only our oil.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:45:06 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ I've got some gun camera footage and radio chatter from Iraq that you might find familiar. Iraq - AC-130U Spooky Gunship, engages targets 6 miles out at night with 105 mm Howitzers (all weathernight target acquisition and strike ) Iraq - AH-64 Apache Kills personnel, 30mm, M230 Automatic Gun (chain gun) This is some effective equipment. Most especially in the desert environment at night. A company of Marines, some Army Rangers and a few of these planes and helicopters could be saving thousands of lives every week in the Sudan. And the Sudanese government doesn't have anything they could even touch our military. They'd pull these militia man on horseback out immediately. And it would piss China off immensely, I know you and George would like that. You think they'd be willing to go to war for the oil they get from the Sudan? I don't think so. Especially when they'd still get their oil regardless. ------------------------- Response to your remark Yeah right so tell me your plan for making this little Middle East operation pay off for the United States. If you're going to go, you'd better go whole hog and take care of business all in one shot, no sense playing around at this point. George Dubya doesn't want a repeat the mistake of his father at any cost apparently. I just mapped out his agenda for him for the next two years Iran Syria the Sudan clean them all out and seize the oil, that's what empires do isn't it?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:47:19 AM EST
    some of the worst killers in the last 100 years
    They are sick bastards, no argument here. But worse killers than the Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or even the US in the last 100 years? They still have a long way to go. And how is the war in Iraq, and the coming war in Iran, supposed to improve things?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:49:36 AM EST
    Well, it started out as a thread that showed potential to develop into some interesting and intelligent discussions, but appears, as often happens, that it's devolved into swatting back the last few starving disease ridden rats that crawl out of their festering holes too often hoping someone will feed them... Have a nice day people. Might as well... There's no point in having a bad one. ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:56:33 AM EST
    Charlie, btw, I owe you and Jondee an apology for selling a thought the other day... I won't going to be giving away second chances to the undeserved again. ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:05:21 AM EST
    'Second chances' in the shirt pocket for Bullet Brains.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:34:00 AM EST
    Where does Jim get the idea that the left likes and want to work with terrorists. I wanted us to stay in Afghanistan and hunt them and kill them. The terrorist were not in Iraq, and now we have more troops there and are spending tons more money. It would have been a lot cheaper and less human cost to have stayed in Afghanistan and built a "shining democracy". Jim, you must love the terrorists, because you support your man Bush that allowed Binie boy and his friends to run wild and blow up places like Egypt. The way I see it is Egypt is your fault because you and your pals that "won the election" are in charge!!!!!!!! Did you forget that little fact? We are bogged down in Iraq and can't seem to be fighting the "terrorists". I don't know what your talking about. All Muslims and not terrorists. Maybe that is where your confused. The left wants to work with some Muslims to try to solve some of the problems in the middle east diplomatically. No one wants to work with terrorists.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:40:56 AM EST
    Debbie, this summarizes PPJ the "Armchair General" quite nicely, I believe.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:52:49 AM EST
    DA, I almost spit my beer out of my nose when I read that one! Yes, it is before noon here, but dontcha know drinking is what my people do...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by BigTex on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:16:40 AM EST
    Tis a day for strange bedfellows Aaron. Yes, we should be going into Sudan. Not to bash the French, but they have had a significant number of troops on the border in a peacekeeping operation for years now. They should have gone in years ago. In light of their failure to do so, and in light of the UN's foot dragging, we should round up a coalition of the willing and go in. It looks like some UN forces will go in later this year, but will they show some spine, or merely be observers? Re the gas prices, while this is fundamentally a supply and demand problem, at least the President is making some effort to remove the artificial price enhancers. Ethanol is Iowa's sacred pig. Not a scared cow, but a pig that has more makeup on it than the Drew Carey Show's Mimi. It's an energy sink. That drives up prices because it increases demand. But because it is near and dear to Iowa, first in the nation primary and battleground state, no one seems willing to tackle the issue head on. The solution isn't quick, but it is workable. Three part solution. 1) Increase CAFE standards. Tomorrow Congress could pass legislation stating that all vehicles must have hybrid engines. That would increase fuel efficiency 7%. 2) Increase our own fuel supply. ANWR has three sections. Where the carribou always roam, where they sometimes roam, and where they never roam. Drill in the portion where they never roam. This is a compromise position; it does minimal environmental impact and yields some oil. Also, start installing the infrastructure to have natural gas automobiles readily available. That will help lower the price of gas because it directly reduces demand for gas. 3) Start changing other energy sectors into sources that do not use carbon based energy. From a physical standpoint our entire electricity production could be nuclear in 5 years. That's not to say we should go 100% nuclear, but it is a viable option for transfer of carbon based energy. Also, this would be a econommically painless transition. The workforce that runs the current carbon based generation plants could be transferred over to run the nuclear plants. Yes there is some expense in building the plants, but the jobs created to build will help to defray the costs, and the reduction in imports will also far more than make up for the costs of building the new generation plants. By following that plan we would not only reduce the demand for energy, but would also increase the domestic supply of energy. Prices would drop.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:03:57 AM EST
    Gas reached £5 per imp. gal. in London this week, equates to $7.50 per US gal. 61% is tax. Now that's what I call expensive motoring.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:12:08 AM EST
    Paid 3.19 yesterday. I hope the Exxon crook enjoys every penny of the 400 million dollar golden parachute. Don't spend it all in one place, you glutton. Maybe the first place to start is a 50% reduction in gas taxes, and a salary-cap of sorts for oil companies. Any profit over 100 million must be put towards price reductions. Maybe it's time to reign in the excessive profits of essential industries like energy and healthcare.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by roy on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:20:21 AM EST
    I know intellectual property law isn't a pet topic around here, but I had a hunch some of y'all would share in my being p*ssed about a law congress is coooking. Adding new protections to copyright:
    One [proposal in the law] would, for instance, create a new federal crime of just trying to commit copyright infringement. Such willful attempts at piracy, even if they fail, could be punished by up to 10 years in prison.
    ...
    Instead of merely targeting distribution [of tools that work around copyright protections], the new language says nobody may "make, import, export, obtain control of, or possess" such anticircumvention tools if they may be redistributed to someone else.
    News article here, interesting bloggish commentary here. I have a vested interest in this, as my company makes tools which could be easily mis-used to circumvent copyright protection. Also, I didn't pay for my copy of Pure Morning. Gratuitous rant: source code is free speech!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:26:21 AM EST
    Kdog. Somebody said on this sight that tax is about 40c a gal. for you guys. The tax here hurts a lot. Though not directly funded by high gas taxation we do enjoy universal healthcare, if you look at the treasury as one big pot, then in that way it could be construed as funding it. As a bye the bye a pack of cigarettes $7.50 a 26er of booze $18 or so. The government also needs the revenue to fund all the goddamn cameras that make us the most spyed upon country on the planet. That is something you will have to catch up on.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:31:48 AM EST
    Che - Unfortunately the terrorists do exist. kdog - Please note the words "some of." Dark Avenger - Do you a response? Thought not. debbie writes:
    I wanted us to stay in Afghanistan and hunt them and kill them
    Uh, we did and we're still there debbie. Watch a newscast lately? As for Iraq, you see we had all of this intelligence that said they had WMD's. You do remember that, don't you debbie? All those Demos demanding we go in? You know, all the favorites. Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Peolsi, Kennedy... all demanding we do something.. And they got their wish. And now they, and debbie herself, have forgotten. It must be a disease of the Left. You write:
    Jim, you must love the terrorists, because you support your man Bush that allowed Binie boy and his friends to run wild and blow up
    Two days ago Biugunit12 was telling us OBL was over the hill and not important. Would you guys please make up your mind? BTW - Iraq is getting ready to form a government now that they have a PM. Wanna reconsider the "bogged down" comment? Oh? You didn't know they had? Watch FNC and stay informed. charlie - No. In civil wars people fight. They don't blow up cars killing women and children. Your grasp of history is really weak. Keep on defending the lap dogs, charlie. You look good petting it. But remember, it bites. Edger - So you have nothing to say that even comes close to refuting my point. Okay.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:39:03 AM EST
    It truely shows a difference in philosophy that liberals will get mad at an executive who gets rich making a living and pay no attention to the excessive taxes that also contribute to the high price of gas. Where is all that money going and how much of the $3.19 kdog is the state and federal govenment keeping? I would bet it dwarfs the profit Exxon is taking off each gallon of gas. Good thoughts Tex. The reason gas is expensive is the cost of replacing the gas that is being used today keeps going up. Why? Well now lets think. Excessive regulation, no new supplies, growing development in India and China and our reliance on an unstable foreign market. The liberal argument makes no sense becuase liberals wonl't support new nuclear plants, not allow us to build new refineries, not allow us to drill off the coast of FL, ANWAR etc... and still complain that gas is too high and it's all Bush's fault. Alternative fuel sources sound like a great idea but it's funny that no one bothers to tell you how much a gallon of ethonal would cost to be massed produced. In fact gas is cheap even now by comparison but too many people want to have it both ways. Restrict production for wacky environmental reasons and then complain that they can't fill up their suburban for less then 60 bucks a tank.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:43:06 AM EST
    Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings and little old ladies. Having just returned from visiting the Mammy, (86) where we were disscussing Iran, I quote: "Well he's made a pigs ear of two of them, he might as well go for the hat trick." I love old ladies in the morning, they smell of reality.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:52:12 AM EST
    Slado...if it was all increased costs causing the price hike oil company profits would be stagnant or decreasing...not rising at record levels. 400 million is making a living? I call that making 1.2 billion livings. I also call it obscene as everyday Americans struggle to pay for that 400 million dollar payday at the pump. See my post, I suggested a 50% cut on gas taxes as well as increased regulation of oil company profiteering. I agree we need more refining capability. ANWR isn't worth the trouble, I'd rather leave that as an absolute last resort source.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:58:36 AM EST
    Check out VW Vagabonds, our freedom loving friends living the disciplined but completely unemcumbered life. How they have paid for their freedom holds lessons for all of us, even if you don't want to drive a VW Van around the world or live quite as spartan an existence they do. But they "retired" in their mid-thirties NOT by getting rich but by minimizing the importance of money through prioritizing what is necessary vs. what is merely waste and/or extraneous.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:04:45 AM EST
    Also, on point with the soaring gas prices, check out my other buddy's website, about his experience running his VW Passat on used soy oil and B100 biofuel.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:13:33 AM EST
    2nd DNA test rules out prisoner in 1988 murder ... Yet another wrongfully convicted individual...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:28:52 AM EST
    This article provides a few more details regarding my earlier post Allow me to highlight some disturbing details in the article:
    Prosecutors also believe even if the hair does not match Whitley, a jury would convict him again because two independent witnesses implicated him in the crime. One of them repeatedly denied seeing Whitley at the murder scene, then changed his story. The other is a two-time convicted murderer who escaped a death sentence after testifying Whitley confessed to him in prison. Whitley claims he never met either of the witnesses.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:30:22 PM EST
    ppj - "Thier life style didnt suit the terrorists." And you know that was what precipitated these attacks how? Do you have some proof in the form of released statements,or, previous communiques by those responsible for the attacks? Curious George (or you) parroting "They hate our freedoms" isnt proof; and neither is the Arnett interview. You're sounding more and more desperate lately. Must be a delayed reaction from all that time you spent on the battlefield.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:51:49 PM EST
    BigTex You're dead on about ethanol, it's a pig in a poke, because it takes far more energy to produce, leaving you with a significant net loss in energy at the end. Here's the latest from the May issue of popular mechanics. "According to the Renewable Fuels Association, 95% ethanol refineries produced more than 4.3 billion gallons of ethanol in 2005. An additional 40 new or expanded refineries slated to come online in the next 18 months will increase that to 6.3 million gallons. That sounds like a lot -- and it is -- but it represents just over 3% of our annual consumption of more than 200 billion gallons of gasoline and diesel. One acre of corn can produce 300 gallons of ethanol per growing season. So in order to produce that 200 billion gallons of petroleum products, American farmers would need to dedicate 675 million acres, or 71% of the nation's 938 million acres of farmland, to growing feedstock. Clearly, ethanol won't kick our fossil fuel dependence -- unless we want to replace our oil imports with food imports." Lately I've been hearing all the major news stations reporting on ethanol shortages as a result of corn shortages. My father is a farmer in Missouri, and my brother lives in Iowa, and neither one of them has heard anything about a shortage of corn. In fact the price of corn is so low right now that the value of all the grain my father has stored in his silos is significantly less than it cost to produce and harvest last year. Apparently they would've been better off if they just hadn't planted a crop at all in 2005. The current price for a bushel of corn according to the Chicago Board of trade is a little over $2.42 a bushel and dropping. You'd think if there was a shortage the price would be rising wouldn't you? And where are the profits from all these new ethanol plants going to go, right into the pockets of the oil companies. There won't hardly be a drop of trickle-down economics for US farmers.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:06:07 PM EST
    Breaking news, Concourse D. at MIA (Miami international Airport) shut down for a suspicious package.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:28:53 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - Do you a response?. I guess you're reminding us of your origins amoungst the 'have-nots' in our society, you sly fox. Thought not. Tell the truth and shame the devil, PPJ, you'll get a lot more respect if you continue down this new road. Oh, and for the irony-impared: The guy in the cartoon is PPJ, and Sparky represents people like soccerdad, Daedler, kdog, etc. You know, the "America-hating, terrorist-hugging leftists" crowd. Thanks for the laugh, PPJ, I didn't need it, but it was welcome anyway :>)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:52:48 PM EST
    takes far more energy to produce, leaving you with a significant net loss in energy at the end.
    This used to be true. I am not sure it is so true anymore. ethanol plants have become much more efficient at producing ethanol out of corn using natural gas. I have not read any of the latest net energy reports on it, but improvements in technology and bigger plants have significantly reduced the energy required to make ethanol. Ethanols main benefit is its replacement of MTBE as a fuel additive. It is makes a much cleaner gasoline that is healthier for our environment. That said, Aaron, you are correct about the potential for ethanol to replace fossil fuels in America. It is not going to happen. Likewise, anyone who thinks ANWR is going to make a lasting impact on domestic supply that will reduce foriegn imports by a significant amount is also living in dreamland. But, we will eventually drill in ANWR and we will continue to make ethanol, because there is a large potential for profits for the oil companies. Neither will have any impact on out dependence on foriegn oil and the prices of gasoline. Gasoline will continue to rise for the rest of our lives until it is all used up. Simple as that folks. No policy is going to change that. We have a finite resource that has reached its peak in production and its all downhill now. The problem isn't going to be solved with policy's put forward by our current federal government or by new technologies (or, even old ones, like nuclear--for that matter). The only solution is to go back to conserving the land and living of the yearly solar energy net income. Old Bucky, told us that way back when. The main problem when oil gets too scarce and prices rise too high, will not be how we will all get around or how ca n we keep our economy growing. That stuff will all fall away with history. The real problem will be how we are going to feed ourselves when the corporations can no longer keep the foodshelves in the supermarkets stocked. Then you will know you have problems.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:43:58 PM EST
    Peaches Stop it sweetie you're scaring me. That's the kind of stuff I hear coming from my brother. But you're dead right, I recently read some blogs where people were disparaging farmers and their profession, seeing it as a rather valueless pursuit in the modern world. I had to pose the question to them, when the oil and gasoline runs out, and the power plants go off-line, how much food do you think a farmer will give you in trade for your new BMW? What do you think the exchange rate on potatoes to BMWs will be at that point? 1 to 1 perhaps?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:38:28 PM EST
    Uh, we did and we're still there debbie. Watch a newscast lately?
    Jim, can't you understand anything. I will try to type slowly to help you. We do not have many troops in Afghanistan, because we have over 100,000 in Iraq. We did not continue to hunt and kill them in Afghanistan, because Bush and his minions demanded that we invade Iraq. Because Bush's minions wanted to invade Iraq since 1998, Bin laden and the other terrorists are still free to blow up places like Eygpt. We now know that Bush and his minions knew there were no WMD's.
    Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Peolsi, Kennedy... all demanding we do something.. And they got their wish.
    Oh, brother ... I can't think of anything to say that would not be a personal insult!!!!!!!!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by roy on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:56:19 PM EST
    Random thought re: windfall profit taxes... If we tell oil companies that they'll pay super-taxes on all profits over $X billion, won't they just spend more money when they think they're going to overshoot that level? Instead of putting the excess profit in the bank for later investment, or distributing it as dividends, they'll just blow it. Every dollar wasted only costs the company, say, $0.20 if they were going to pay 80% tax on it otherwise. And it's easy to get at least $0.20 cents of value by spending $1, even on something stupid. The executives will all get raises -- shareholders will have to approve this, but the execs can claim they're tempted to quit because they don't like voters screwing with them. They'll spend billions on a PR campaign -- trying to convince people to repeal the tax hike, or just giving every employee the chance to be on TV as a goof. They'll buy unnecessarily expensive equipment -- why buy a $5M jigger that'll last five years, when you can buy a $10M jigger that'll last six years for only $1M more? Every manager will get a luxury company car -- a $50K car is a great recruiting tool when it effectively costs only $10K. Just a thought. It's no secret I sympathize with corporate greed, but I'm not sure what the above means for that agenda.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:59:03 PM EST
    The people are scaring the king People power is a beautiful thing. I wish the people of Nepal all the luck in the world in taking their democracy back.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:00:51 PM EST
    Peaches - Aaron - In related news Henny Penny announced that the sky was falling. charlie, jondee - I love it. In your desire to disagree you actually wind up claiming this isn't an act of terrorism? Who do you think planted the bombs? Baptists? Next thing I know someone will be claiming the WT was full of Little Eichmans.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:03:56 PM EST
    Waas has a new piece about the MOAH. Senator Roberts should be fired. Arrested as well. He has done more to harm the US than, well... to be fair, as much to harm the US, as the cromagnons in the WH. Waas

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:08:27 PM EST
    I see your point roy. We all know the last thing the oil co's would do is reduce prices. They'd get the shady deals going and get the loot one way or another...kickbacks and whatnot. We're screwed. Just gotta find a way to use less gas.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:19:52 PM EST
    Peaches - Aaron - In related news Henny Penny announced that the sky was falling. Thanks for the press release, Mr. PPJournalist.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:23:31 PM EST
    ppj - Show me where Charlie or I said it wasnt an act of terrorism. What I was impugning was your perrenial Faux superficial analysis of thier motives. No wonder you guys have so much trouble misconstruing intelligence; if it isnt something that'll fit on a bumpersticker, you're at a complete loss.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:27:24 PM EST
    D.A - One thing you can say about Jim, he's a veritable maestro when it comes to sneaking a troll under the wire.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by BigTex on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:42:48 PM EST
    Peaches - you may be correct about new technologies making ethanol fuel efficient. If so next line of questioning is Aaron's thoughful questioning about the amount of ethanol capable of being produces. Then, there is a moral question to face. Which is the greater moral wrong. The pollution from not using ethanol, or the not having food to send to starving countries? Taking a look at the world hunger map suggests that the use of ethanol would be immoral. The US is the world's bread basket. Eruope, Asutralia, and Canada do some producing, but the US is by far the largest producer of food. If we were to limit the access to food so that we could grow corn for ethanol it would lead to rampant escilation in starvation.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:00:44 PM EST
    They even have S.S reenactments these days. For certain red staters tired of the same old thing.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:14:10 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - Congrats. You have demonstrated that you can read, copy and make that copy in bold face. Wow. Such talent.
    If using the Preview button was in your skill set, your jealousy would be less explicable.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 06:22:18 PM EST
    Btw, Siegfried Sassoon the poet that Oscar quoted earlier, who knew "nothing about war and the military", survived the trenches of WWI and was called "Mad Jack" by his compatriots for his "near suicidal exploits close to the German line." Of course Sassoons exploits dont come close to the sheer reckless abandon entailed in dodging a physical and going bar crawling in Alabama or those that embraced the higher calling of "other priorities". Needless to say.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:12:45 PM EST
    Charlie - Thanks. No Moslem terrorists, but you got to watch those Baptists. I'll try and get a message through to Cairo. Really charlie, you are funny. And I love it when you forget what you write:
    In Egypt, we shall see.
    In the meantime what is Egypt saying?
    On Wednesday last week the Egyptian Government said that it had arrested a group of 22 militant Islamists planning bomb attacks on tourist targets, a gas pipeline near Cairo and Muslim and Christian religious leaders. The Interior Ministry said in a statement the underground organisation called itself the Victorious Group
    Dark Avenger - No comments, just insults and spelling complaints... You're plumb wore out. "Can anybody here play this game?" Jondee - I see you are complaining again, and making things up again.. BTW - Do you realize that Bush did more than you?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:23:39 PM EST
    Islamic Jihad denounces Egypt's Dahab bombings www.chinaview.cn 2006-04-25 20:05:07

    GAZA, April 25 (Xinhua) -- The Islamic Jihad (Holy War) condemned on Tuesday the triple bomb attacks in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Dahab which killed at least 23 people late on Monday.

    Nafez Azzam, senior Jihad leader in the Gaza Strip, told reporters that the attacks in Egypt "will never serve any Palestinian, Arab or Muslim issues and interests."

    "The enemies of Arab and Muslim nations are the only beneficiaries of such acts," said Azzam, expressing solidarity with the Egyptian people.

    Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and the Hamas-led government also condemned the deadly attacks.



    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 07:37:54 PM EST
    ppj - He's certainly effed up more things (and people) than I ever dreamed of. But, thats why you like him; you get to feel that vicarious sense of power.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:04:26 PM EST
    A huge problem with using corn as the primary ingredient is the one harvest per year. Switching to sugar-beets will yield significantly more sugar rich produce due to multiple harvests. Also, Plowing under states with year round growing seasons, like say, Florida, and planting the entire state with beets will produce tremendous yields. Don't blame the corn or the method.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:12:25 PM EST
    I don't have a TV, and so I have been missing out on the Soprano's threads. While at my local pub for dinner, sitting at the bar I noticed a very large man loosening his tie. He reached into his pocket and pulled out a wad of cash. He put a 20 down on the bar. I was quite amazed watching him sit on the barstool, as he was very large. He ordered a pint of bass. I was ready to leave and my friend said we had to stay because that was tony soprano. Anyway I basically had a drink with tony soprano, sort of. Are all the other mobsters on the TV show as big as him, or is he the biggest?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 08:35:14 PM EST
    And there is this
    While Republican leaders sharply criticize soaring gasoline prices and energy industry profits, GOP negotiators have decided to knock out provisions in a major tax bill that would force the oil companies to pay billions of dollars more in taxes on their profits. [emphasis mine]
    Kinda says it all, doesn't it? WaPo

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:54:26 AM EST
    Former State Department Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson wrote a particularly insightful artricle published in the Baltimore Sun the other day, and asked: Is U.S. being transformed into a radical republic? A couple of excerpts:
    our evolution founded the greatest country the world has ever seen. That was true in every element of power and in the uniqueness that makes us great, our constant striving for "a more perfect union" and, as we do so, our open arms for the other peoples of the world "yearning to be free." As Alexis de Tocqueville once said: "America is great because she is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."
    and...
    with the inauguration of George W. Bush as president, America set on a path to cease being good; America became a revolutionary nation, a radical republic. If our country continues on this path, it will cease to be great - as happened to all great powers before it, without exception. ...the Bush administration, in the name of fighting terrorism, has put America on the radical path to ruin.
    and...
    Congress can awaken and discover that the Constitution is correct, that Congress is in fact a separate and equal branch of government. The American people will find a way to deal with the remainder of the radicals, whether at the ballot box, in the courts or in the Senate. We can halt the precipitate slide in our standing around the world, convince the majority of the Islamic world that we can and must co-exist - and eventually prosper together - and at the same time confront, confound and defeat the small element in Islam's midst that lives to murder innocents, Christian, Jew and Muslim alike. All we need do, in reality, is return to our roots. Never in our almost 800-year history since the Magna Carta have we been radicals.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 04:24:42 AM EST
    and at the same time confront, confound and defeat the small element in Islam's midst that lives to murder innocents, Christian, Jew and Muslim alike. ...as well as root out the small element in Washington and elsewhere across America that lives to murder innocents, Christian, Jew and Muslim alike.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 05:36:06 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - No comments, just insults and spelling complaints. Actually, PPJ, all I've done is take the insults you routinely hand out here and turned them around on you. As for the spelling difficulties, I haven't seen any trace of such problems with you on this thread, but you did have a 'typing error' in one of your comments, I'll leave it as an exercise for everyone else to locate it in this thread. You comment summarizes what you've been doing here recently, so thanks for backing me up here :) You're plumb wore out. Projection doesn't just happen in movie houses these days, apparently. "Can anybody here play this game?" Yes, PPJ, your version of Calvinball is difficult, but ultimately rewarding in the end. YMMV

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:09:10 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - You haven't posted anything on subject in weeks. Enjoy your hobby of following me around and making snarky remarks. Jondee - Glad you agree that Bush's military service is better than public service. Squeaky - And the oil companies would just increase prices to make up the difference. Or are you saying that we need government price control? You know it worked so well in the 70's. No shortages, no gas lines.... et al - We have let the environmental wackos control energy policy for so long we are probably in for some difficult times. The so-called alternative sources can't come close to making up the difference, and nuclear - which we must have - will take years. Both must be pursued, especially nuclear. Increase CAFE? Works for me, but it is also long term. From a world view we need to commit to drilling every 10 feet in the US. edger - Repeat after me. There are no terrorists besides Islamic Jihad. There are no terrorists besides Islamic Jihad. Uh huh. Sure. charlie - So you read all of that and you still can't make a reasoned response without throwing in some trash talk? I think you read it, after the fact. But the issue here is quite simple. What we have is a lot of dead people killed by Islamic terrorists. Arguing over which group while mumbling about internal Egyptian affairs is useless. So why the arguing, charlie? Is it because you actually have something to say, or is it just because you want to disagree with everything just to prove you're "tough." Or is it because you believe that America is wrong, deserves to be kicked out of Iraq and should not impede Iran's attempt to develop a nuke? Reasoned discussion is fine, charlie. But at some point the fighting breaks out and you have to decide which side you are on.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:14:44 AM EST
    ppj - Pray tell, what was the SPECIFIC service that Bush performed in the military that was more valuable than any public service? Awaiting your responce.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:19:23 AM EST
    "Arguing over which group while mumbling about Egypt internal affairs.." Trans: Dont confuse me with the facts, I have bumperstickers to write.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:22:23 AM EST
    Jeez Jondee, he was a direct participant in an election campaign, while a quasi-active military person. What higher level of... Oh wait. That's right. Never mind... Bush had a dangerous job you know.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:24:48 AM EST
    Wow is it payday at the NRCC? Jim's in overdrive.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:35:41 AM EST
    Che, Cornered dying rats screech the loudest. Means nothing and no response to it is needed. They just have a annoying death rattle...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:46:35 AM EST
    He's been wha..slacking off and he has quotas to fulfill.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:50:49 AM EST
    Johnny: Bush had a dangerous job you know. He still does. Look how many people have him in their crosshairs. ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:54:54 AM EST
    And he sho nuff ain't gettin' no hep nohow from Unka Dick...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Aaron on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:56:00 AM EST
    Big Tex, Peaches, and Johnny Big Tex, your point is perhaps most salient, since destroying foodstuffs in order to make fuels for our vehicles while millions around the world, most specifically the people of Africa who give up their oil for our vehicles, die of starvation every day. My father and farmers all across the Midwest would much prefer to give away their corn to people who are starving then sell that corn at a loss so that the oil companies can have a cheap source of sugar for producing ethanol. Peaches , there really is no comparison between extracting energy from fossil fuel sources and manufacturing it from foodstuffs. Processing biomatter into ethanol is a black hole for a net loss of energy. Even if you only start with the grain itself, the amount of heat energy it takes to distill alcohol from grain is about five times more expensive in dollars and in energy lost than that derived from the cheapest fossil fuels like methane and the lowest grade crude oil. But if you begin from that point you've already forgotten 70% of the energy it takes to get that fuel, the net energy which goes into the the cultivation process. Cultivation requires an enormous amount of energy be extracted not only from the sun and soil, soil being a limited resource, but for the sheer amount of hydrocarbons which are vital to cultivation process and maintaining current yields. Growing any kind of crop requires vast amounts of, fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides. And growing corn especially requires an enormous amount of all of these substances, all of which are derived from hydrocarbons and fossil fuels. Add into that the cost of fueling the tractors and combines and trucks it takes to deliver that grain to market. Plus the cost of maintenance on all of those vehicles, tires, parts and labor, and the high-quality engine oil which all of these vehicles require. That's where the real cost of producing ethanol is to be found. Instead of destroying the grain to produce ethanol, It would be much more efficient to let humans eat the food and then collect the waste matter they produce and extract the methane from that. Much more energy efficient and in a world of starving people much more acceptable from an ethical moral perspective. Johnny, you could get more sugar from sugar beets or switchgrass, but unfortunately the cost of converting an entire system of cultivation to these particular crops would be massive, a practical impossibility for American farmers, unless the US government was willing to take up the cost of that switch. But ultimately, pursuing this method of creating fuel for such an enormous demand is doomed from its inception. It's wrong from a moral perspective, it's wrong from an energy efficiency perspective and it's wrong from a facing reality perspective. Ethanol production is little more than smoke and mirrors, to distract people from the larger question of creating and using energy-efficient vehicles, vehicles which already exist today. If everyone in the United States was currently driving Volkswagen TDI diesel Jettas or Beetles, which according to a recent Motor Week test gets 49.9 miles a gallon on the highway, or some manifestation of these vehicles, we could cut our use of hydrocarbon based fuels in half overnight. But I guess it's just easier to play head games with Americans, then to get them to face the hard realities of the situation.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:30:22 AM EST
    ppj, Don't worry, the sky won't fall in your world. You'll go to your grace laughing. We all know that. But, your granchildren will never forgive you. et al - We have let the environmental wackos control energy policy for so long we are probably in for some difficult times. The so-called alternative sources can't come close to making up the difference, and nuclear - which we must have - will take years. Both must be pursued, especially nuclear.
    From a world view we need to commit to drilling every 10 feet in the US.
    Yes, this is the solution that people like you will also go to their grave with. US oil production peaked in the 1970's. We have produced less oil every year since. This is not because of environmental wackos, although, I know you will continue to believe that all the way to the grave too. That is what makes you so endearable. A senile old man, through and through. WE have already drilled every ten feet of oil in the US. As prices rise, we will return to abandoned wells, because the increased marginal cost of securing this oil will be less than the price oil companies get in the market. A fact that was not the case in 2000 when oil was around $30 per barrell. This won't increase our production capacity either. The oi8l we produce here will be increasingly more costly to recover and more and more scarce. This has been the case since the peak production in the 1970's. Big Tex, We will have problems enough worrying about feeding our local populations. Time to let go of the US mythology of feeding the world. Local populations around the world are always better off when they conserve their own land and environment in order to feed their own local populations without a reliance on imports. The US is also experiencing a drastic decrease in its trade surplus of agricultural products each year. Soil erosion is a problem in all of our agricultural regions in the US due to industrial agriculture and monocropping. Vast areas in Western Montana are now infertile and can no longer be farmed or used as pastuer for cattle due to industrial practices. These alkali lands are spreading steadily eastward. Once lands reach this state of infertility they become a wasteland of desert areas much like the once fertile lands in mesopotamia. The faster the oil runs out, the sooner we can restore the lands that have not reached this state and we can begin sane farming practices to feed local, not global populations.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:52:59 AM EST
    Aaron, All of your points are correct on the net energy to produce ethanol, when you begin at the point of cultivation. I was pointing out the efficiencey gains at the plant. But, of course, there is no comparison between fossil fuels and biofuels. Unless you want to go back to the point when fossil fuels were plant materials milions of years ago, before undergoing the transformation to oil and coal through years of heat and pressure. The point is fossil fuels are finite and biofuels are not. Our economy relies on fossil fuels. There is not a replacement available when these finite resources run our. Oil is close to or has already passed the peak world production. Thus our economy is about to undergo a massive transformation. My hennypenny prediction is that this transformation is already underway. However, if it doesn't happen for another 10, 25 or even 50 years, the time is irrelevant. All these times are too soon, when put in perspective of US history. Our era of consumption and waste is about to end and we either adapt or die. There is no other moral argument than that, so we can drop this fantasy about using our corn to feed the world. We need to use our land to feed us for generations to come. That requires putting resources back into the land, not taking soil away and compacting it year after year of industrial agriculture. This is a recipe fdr disaster.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:55:46 AM EST
    You haven't posted anything on subject in weeks. How many weeks, PPJ? Gotta link to the last time I posted on subject within the last few months? Unless you've crunched some numbers to show us, you're just talking through your hat. You've now started making wild accusations that easily falsifiable by the observation that any post on an open thread such as this is by definition on topic, so I have posted 'on-topic' in the past few weeks. Sorry to run rings around you logically, c'est la vie. Enjoy your hobby of following me around and making snarky remarks. Motes and beams, PPJ, motes and beams, just as you weren't 'snarky' when you declared recent how 'we' didn't know anything about the military or war compared to you.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:28:37 AM EST
    Link for peaches!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:29:28 AM EST
    http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    Rovesputin goes before the Grand Jury again today. Do you swear and spin the truth, the whole truth, and everything else including the truth, to help your god?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:47:44 AM EST
    THanks Johnny! Looks promising. I'll check it out.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:54:07 AM EST
    Posted by Jondee April 26, 2006 08:46 AM He's been wha..slacking off and he has quotas to fulfill
    How clever Jondee!!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:33:23 AM EST
    Peaches - Henny Penny is talking about NOW. And we all know that in the LONG RUN we will all be dead. I'm all for fixing the problem, but first you gotta do some repairs to the current system. The problem with the environmnetal wacko's approaches are that they all start off with: First you cook the rabbit. That doesn't work. First you catch the rabbit. Right now we need oil. And telling Bubba that we can't drill in ANWAR because it disturbs the bears when Bubba is paying $80.00 to fill up his tank is going to do it. Jondee - He served in the Texas Air National Guard and became a qualified fighter pilots flying F102's. Something that has a degree of danger to it. If you think not, check out the insurance rates for fighter pilots versus drug counselors... And to defuse all the hurt feelings, let me hasten to add that drug counselors do good things. It just doesn't measure up to defending the country. Sorry. Life is unfair. And yes, just as you didn't do anything to help the military, you didn't join the discussion over the the terrorists killing the tourists in Egypt. But you can make off target remarks demonstrating what you don't know. Way to go, Jondee. Aaron writes:
    If everyone in the United States was currently driving Volkswagen TDI diesel Jettas
    True. That's were you can go back to the mid 90's and ask why the Clinton administration didn't jack up CAFE to make the manufacturers quit building all those SUV's and force people into the itstbitsy yellow bugs... charlie.... When your beat just tell us how smart you are and throw in some quotes from movies or the sports pages.... Life is not a cabaret, old chum.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:58:15 AM EST
    charlie, I've just sliced some fresh Velveeta for our celebrity at table 60, "A Retired(has-been) Officer who is no Gentleman", so get here with the whine he's come to expect over here pronto!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by Aaron on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:11:48 PM EST
    Peaches I'm a bit dismayed at your seeming lack of compassion for the people of the world (Africans and middle Easterners specifically) who have suffered for decades so that we can have cheap oil. It would be far more equitable for the hundreds of millions of people who live under Third World conditions, if the United States included large shipments of grain along with every purchase of oil that we make. In Africa, 10 bushels of corn can keep a moderate size village well fed for a month. Cheap gasoline in America has come at a huge cost of lives in the Third World. The United States has spent a great deal of time supporting dictatorships and strongman who oppressed and murder their people, just so we can have cheap gasoline. Personally I find that unacceptable. And I would think that all Americans of good conscience should keep this in mind when they complain about the cost of their fuel, which is presently being artificially inflated by the oil companies. They intend to squeeze every dollar they can out of the the American people with the help of Bush administration, before the next administration takes office.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:51:51 PM EST
    Aaron, It is not a lack of compassion. China and india fed themselves for centuries without any help from us and without depleting their soils of fertility. They can do it once again. The same goes for Africa. The problem with areas that have undergone famine in the recent past has been caused by the legacy of colonialization. Africans also did just fine without our help for centuries. When local populations are feeding themselves through the bounty of the land that they are caring for themselves then you have sustainability. When local populations rely on imports of grain around the world, then they will eventually have to face famine when those imports are cut short and local populations do not have the labor, skills, resources, and land to provide for themselves. We will eventually experience famine here in the US, when our imports stop coming. Katrina provided a small glimpse into what can happen right here in the US when imports are cut-off. It is said that all metropolitan regions in the US have about 3 days supply of food within city limits. So, I don't lack compassion. I just have a belief in Africans and Middle Easterners that left to their own devices, they like us, are perfectly capable of adapting. Problems arise, only when populations become dependent on the international corporations for their livelihood. ppj, of course you are right. I have already consented that we will drill in the artic, because people like you cannot see past their own nose. Short term focus. It is a symptom of insanity and senility.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:08:58 PM EST
    Sadly enough, it is the fact we do ship foods to famine stricken areas that virtually assures starvation. Increased food production leads to an increase in population, which leads to a still further increase in food production. Famine is a trademark of agricultural societies.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:14:42 PM EST
    ppj - Im still awaiting some actual evidence to back up what you "do know" about those terrorists and thier motivations. Something other than the products of your overheated imagination. Time to put up or shut up the war mongering propaganda.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:52:09 PM EST
    In the mean time, maybe you could give us another "on target" supposition about how the polls are conducted. Mr. Credibility.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#102)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:55:09 PM EST
    It is not a lack of compassion. China and india fed themselves for centuries without any help from us and without depleting their soils of fertility. They can do it once again. The same goes for Africa.
    Africa can't without severe population reduction to take the various country's populations back to sustaianable levels. They don't have the right soil type to sustain themselves at anything near their current population levels. In fact some countries in Africa cannot produce enough food to support anything but the most megar populations. Not because of waste or soil mismanagement, but because of an utter lack of resources. The same goes for China and India, without the soil type addition. Sure they can sustain themselves if they want to, but not at current population levles. China, to her credit, is trying to reign in population, albeit by brutal measures. But when you are talking about 1 billion people even a 1% increase in population per year is a 10 million population increase. They have passed the bend in the knee on a population curve. India is there or soon will be, and they don't have nearly as much population restraint effort as China does.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#103)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 02:13:19 PM EST
    Big Tex, Yes, I know. I think it is obvious we have a population problem. Nature has a way of taking care of these things. Africa, China, and India have a long history of sustainable agriculture, but yes at lower population levels. If we look at it scientifically, for populations to come down, we all know that death rates have to rise and birth rates have to fall. However, china, India, and Africa had for many centuries population levels that were also sustainable. The migration opf people from rural to city areas led to the vast population explosions as social norms that were placed on people in local populations were removed. This migration occurred because Western nations wanted to exploit the land for resources and the people for labor. Place people back on the land, give them ownership, and let communities decide their own fate. Under these circumstances, communities either adapt or go instinct. I am betting on the ingenuity of the human species to adapt.
    They don't have the right soil type to sustain themselves at anything near their current population levels.
    Africa is a big continent, Tex. Bigger than Texas, in fact. There is no one soil type. It has a very diverse ecosystem with abundant soil types. The population problem in Africa is confined to urban areas. It grows worse as cities grow even larger, but rural areas are abandoned. So, yes, it cannot support the current population, but it can do well, if given a chance. What we are not going to be able to do is to support our population, Africas, Indias, Chinas and everywhere else for very long--if we ever really did. We don't have the right soil type either.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by john horse on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    Here is some good news! All boot camps in Florida will be shut down.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#105)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:17:45 PM EST
    The lyrics to Neil Young's "Let's Impeach the President": Let's impeach the president for lying And leading our country into war Abusing all the power that we gave him And shipping all our money out the door He's the man who hired all the criminals The White House shadows who hide behind closed doors And bend the facts to fit with their new stories Of why we have to send our men to war Let's impeach the president for spying On citizens inside their own homes Breaking every law in the country By tapping our computers and telephones What if Al Qaeda blew up the levees Would New Orleans have been safer that way Sheltered by our government's protection Or was someone just not home that day? Let's impeach the president For hijacking our religion and using it to get elected Dividing our country into colors And still leaving black people neglected Thank god he's racking down on steroids Since he sold his old baseball team There's lot of people looking at big trouble But of course the president is clean Thank God ----- found on Fox New April 26

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#106)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:15:37 PM EST
    ppj - Stll waiting for that inside, on target info on the Egyptian terrorists. Where'd you go? Hey c'mon tell us something. Make up something if you have to. You have lattitude here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:12:15 PM EST
    This Saturday will be 8 months since Katrina made landfall and drowned The Big Easy. At 8:00PM CDT Saturday night it will be 8 months since Gov. Blanco called Bush with a simple request: "Mr. President, we need your help. We need everything you've got." It will also be 8 months since Bush's response to the Governor was to go to bed without acting on her request. How many simple requests from the nation has he since gone to bed without acting on? It seems so much longer than that now, and Neil Young's lyrics remind us that Katrina marked the real beginning of the end for Bush:
    ...the Bush Era ended definitively on Sept. 2, the day Bush first toured the Gulf Coast States after Hurricane Katrina. There was no magic moment with a bullhorn. The source of Bush's political success was his claim that he could protect Americans. Leadership, strength and security were Bush's calling cards. ...they were lost in the surging waters of New Orleans.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:18:43 PM EST
    May 29 will be 9 months. What will Katrina have given birth to by then?
    "George W. Bush's presidency is a disaster - one that's still unfolding." -- John W. Dean
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#109)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:30:23 PM EST
    edger-The Dean article is really good. I had read the first one as well, and his predictions were spot on. That is not good for us though as the prez is going to do something desperate. Iran War? I sure hope not. It is very difficult to watch a impending train wreck while powerless to stop it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:23:07 AM EST
    Squeaky, We've been watching a series of train wrecks for the past six years with Bush at the wheel and the train continually derailing. Trouble is, the people keep doing their best to put the train back on the track, while Bush keeps steering it towards the cliff. The cliff is getting closer... and as Frank Zappa said "It's not getting any smarter out there..."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#111)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:32:40 AM EST
    Squeaky - the closing paragraphs of Dean's article may be more prophetic than we think, and leave me wondering if Dean is alluding to something he wants to say but will not:
    If there is no "October Surprise," I would be shocked. And if it is not a high-risk undertaking, it would be a first. Without such a gambit, and the public always falls for them, Bush is going to lose control of Congress. Should that happen, his presidency will have effectively ended, and he will spend the last two years of it defending all the mistakes he has made during the first six, and covering up the errors of his ways. There is, however, the possibility of another terrorist attack, and if one occurred, Americans would again rally around the president - wrongly so, since this is a presidency that lives on fear-mongering about terror, but does little to truly address it. The possibility that we might both suffer an attack, and see a boost to Bush come from it, is truly a terrifying thought.
    Dean is a lawyer, and understands opportunity, and motive, very well. Follow the money...

    Tuesday Open Thread | 108 comments (108 topical)