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Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:36:59 AM EST
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I'll be travelling until Friday so here's an open thread to keep yourselves current. I'll have my laptop with me, so I won't be gone entirely. And TChris and LNILR may check in as well.

If there's PlameGate news, be sure to check Firedoglake, Empty Wheel at the Next Hurrah, and Tom Maguire.

All of the sites on our blogroll are special, so I hope you give them a read too.

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    Wednesday Open Thread | 49 comments (49 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 09:31:37 AM EST
    Turns out those rotting-teeth, ale drinking, pale as alabaster British are much healthier per-capita than we are. And the Brits spend half what we do on healthcare (and they have universal care). Seems our lifestyle and obssession with things are literally killing us.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:01:45 AM EST
    Don't get stressed about it Daddler it's bad for you. Boy these ciggies taste good ,specially with a vodka-bull, and then I gotta go out in the goddamn sun soon to score some gear. Now that is stressful.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Steven Sanderson on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:12:51 AM EST
    Happy Birthday Pete Seeger! I hope that you enjoy many more of 'em.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by BigTex on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:44:14 AM EST
    Dadler - the article makes it clear that healthcare isn't the reason the Brits are more healthy.
    Differences in government health care programs may be a factor, but they do not completely explain the disparity, the investigators said.
    This quote is even more telling.
    The fact that the English government provides health care to all its citizens while the United States does not may contribute to the disparity, the authors said. "But it is equally important to recognize that health insurance can not be the central reason for the better health outcomes in England because the top socioeconomic tier of the U.S. population have close to universal access but their health outcomes are often worse than those of their English counterparts," the authors said.
    Also, this seems to look only at a select set of chronic diseases, what about acute diseases and injuries? How long does someone need to wait for a needed, but not life threatening surgery? That's been a universal complaint of people I know from Canada and the UK. That's a major quality of life issue, more importantly, one that is correctable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending US health care system. Insurance reform should be a top priority. We should have national preventative and major medical health care here. But to say that UK health care delivery system is the cause for the difference in health status between the two countries seems to be reading the article for what you want, not for what the article says.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:56:33 AM EST
    But to say that UK health care delivery system is the cause for the difference in health status between the two countries seems to be reading the article for what you want, not for what the article says.
    Shorter NHS. It seems to be somewhat of a zipcode lottery, and I can only speak on a personal level, but up to press I have no reason to complain. Leave apart major care issues and look to everyday needs, nobody has to worry about the availability of drugs due to excessive costs. Maybe easy access to cheap drugs prevents more acute problems and consequently reflects in the stats.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Wed May 03, 2006 at 11:16:26 AM EST
    But to say that UK health care delivery system is the cause for the difference in health status between the two countries seems to be reading the article for what you want, not for what the article says.
    What Dadler said:
    And the Brits spend half what we do on healthcare (and they have universal care). Seems our lifestyle and obssession with things are literally killing us. [emphasis mine]
    Obviously, the health of a population or community is correlated most strongly to lifestyles and diet. Americans, it can be assumed [with the exception of certain poker players in gated communities], live a more stressful life and also dump more toxins in their bodies through a diet that is not conducive to good health. This leads to more profits for a market based health care system needing a sick population to care for, in order to keep its investors happy. A country that might be more interested in health as a essentail good that is too important to the secruity of the nation might place the goal of a healthy population over the profits of a health care system. So, although the delivery of health-care is not the cause of the health status of the US and UK, it is certainly a contributing factor. Perhaps a gov't that wqas paying the bill for health care might take more preventive measures to insure its population is not sickly or suffering from chronic diseases, such as shorter work weeks, elimination of poverty, and better diets, more investment in soil conservation (organic agriculture), etc.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 11:51:34 AM EST
    Tex, I didn't say healthcare was the reason. What I said was they have universal health care AND spend less per capita on health care than we do. That, to me, indicates a problem both health related AND society related. Our medical industry is based on profit, first and foremost. Theirs isn't. That OBVIOUSLY has positive implications, but can't explain EVERYTHING, I'm aware of this. But we eat like sh*t, we stress ourselves outta our minds over money and things and affluence, we waste like consumers are designed to, we invest a paltry amount in genuine social infrastructure, we're scared like sheep over "terror" too easily, and our entire national being is focused on the accumulation of material wealth and things, and we tend to view anything the government does to help communities or families as communist or socialist. We're an extremely dysfunctional nation, and it shows in our health. Both physical and emotional. Our sense of self is wrapped up in the dollar more than in being genuinely free people. You wanna see free people, check our my friends' website, VW Vagabonds. THAT is real freedom.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peaches on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:16:00 PM EST
    Big Tex, In a thread a week or two back you commented on environmentalists being wrong about high gas prices leading to declining SUV sales. I corrected you and said that you meant to say economists and not environmentalist and explained a little economic theory to you concerning elasticity of demand and the difference between the long-run and the short-run. I explained that we were still in the short-run and demand had not had adequate time to adjust to price (i.e. it was inelastic in the short-run) it looks like we are now entering the long-run and demand is becoming more elastcic to demand. U.S. Makers Facing Glut of S.U.V.'s as Gas Rises

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:31:24 PM EST
    Diet combined with an awesome lack of exercise in addition to the perverted work ethic encouraged in this country are the major contributors to the radically poor health and obesity of this country. Funding basic preventative and emergency care along with massive re-education concerning nutrition and exercise would virtually eliminate the need for advanced care in the 40-70 age bracket (a health-care killer right now). But Peaches is correct-there is more money to be made selling get-it-up drugs to rich, over-weight men. There is more money to be made selling cholesteral reducing drugs than cholesteral reducing lifestyles. We as a nation work more hours per week than any other nation-as a result we have less time and energy to take care of ourselves. He!!, funding 4 weeks of paid vacation every year to every full-time employee would cut healthcare costs (and cost less).

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:45:34 PM EST
    Peaches, We're also a nation that has a very conflicted puritanical core. That doesn't really exist in Europe anymore. Since a long time ago all the puritans got on boats in Europe and sailed...right here. And that puritan core definitely plays a big role in the national, especially mental, health of the nation, or deficit thereof. We're just a really large, dysfunctional adopted family that consumes too much, saves too little, and thinks money is the most desirable route to genuine happiness. And I think the authors of this study would say universal health care, and the stress relief of not worrying about how to pay for medication or therapy or doctor visits, especially for the most vulnerable among us, that this universal care is an indispensible element for everyone in Britain BESIDES the rich. That the rich in the U.S. are often sicker than the poorest in England only speaks to me of greed and gluttony. Not to ANY irrelevance of universal care for those, the vast majority of us, who are most definitely not rich.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:48:20 PM EST
    Add Peaches, And your point was spot on about the medical and drug "industries" needing a constant stream of "sick" people to keep their shareholders happy. The U.S. free market has gone haywire in healthcare. Loco.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:55:17 PM EST
    We're just a really large, dysfunctional adopted family that consumes too much, saves too little, and thinks money is the most desirable route to genuine happiness.
    our entire national being is focused on the accumulation of material wealth and things
    Dadler, how do you square that with the standard left-leaning belief that we should "cure" poverty, homelessness, economic inequality, etc. in America? Because we know that in America, "poverty" means a big color TV, enough to eat, a roof over our head, a car, etc. Does this mean the homeless (no belongings to protect, no schedules to keep) are truly happy?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by desertswine on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:07:42 PM EST
    "A beer a day keeps the germs away." - English saying

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:11:42 PM EST
    The verdict is in: Moussaoui verdict coming down in about 20 minutes.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:18:19 PM EST
    What is it with these guys. First, courtesy of our own OW, we get a dose of Jeff Goldstein's warmongering via a gross distortion of a CSM article. His indefensible yellow journalism is made more slimy by providing a broken link. Judging by the comments no one cared that they could not see the hacked to bits original. All that matters to the Keyboard Cowards to urge us into another war. My response to OW and his excessively perfumed apologia (for what I am not sure) here Now Hitchens is up to the same kind of dirty tricks. He hacked into a Juan Cole email in order to do a character assassination on Cole at Slate. He distorts Cole's position on Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. His personal attack on Cole was without context and left out Cole's own conclusion. A serious misrepresentation in the same way as Goldstein's warmongering sleight of hand in protein wisdom. Cole delivers a well deserved smackdown to the drunken has-been Hitchens for being the slime ball distortionist that he has become. These guys want war with Iran so bad that they will sh*t themselves in the most obvious way to get public support. Most of us hold our noses, the rest do not smell a thing. Cole's response to Hitchens ends with a poignant anti war call and response. The chorus goes: One, two, three, four, we don't want your stinking war! Well worth a read.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:22:52 PM EST
    Sarc, I think finding a balance between our obssession with consumer waste and living a more connected and resourceful life is what it is all about. And I can't take your quote about homelessness even as satire since the majority of homeless are mentally ill and/or severely substance addicted. Lastly if you think poverty in the U.S. all about big TVs and having all this stuff and a roof over your head, etc., then I suggest you go back and see Hoop Dreams again. Boiled hot dogs and no electricity do not affluent poor people make. But the poor in this country are also needed to be consumers, as we all are, and it's perfectly logical that when they can they buy things. Sometimes as wastefully and needlessly as we do. Often not. Having lived on welfare and food stamps with my young single mom, I remember waiting in food stamp lines, welfare check lines, and believe me, there's was no affluence there, only a collective sense of wishing we were doing better. Go to Appalachia if you wanna see some rural third world poverty in the US, though. It's still there, just like it's urban counterpart. Changing our lifestyles and increasing our generosity are not mutually exclusive. Basically we can all do better by all being more generous. It's a fairly simple equation, the Golden Rule, but we've got a big house, a big car, and all our toys to keep buying, and to keep us from thinking about it. That is what we are in the U.S.: consumers from the cradle to the grave. We are taught by the free market from the moment we can see and hear to buy, buy, buy, consume, consume, consume. That some of the "poor" in this nation might actually evidence some influence of this marketing blitz shows only how well it works. All that glitters. Works on fishing lures, too.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:39:53 PM EST
    Moussaoui skipped the DP. Amazing! And a VA jury.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jen on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    Life in prison without parole for Moussaoui. All this money and effort to try to convict and kill a moron who didn't do anything.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:45:08 PM EST
    Now Hitchens is up to the same kind of dirty tricks
    Hitchens... he used to be somebody. His column in Slate is a real hack-job, even high-schoolish.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:48:01 PM EST
    Hitchens is a punk who seems to have had some kind of svengali spell cast over him by the Straussian philosopher kings from the U. of Chicago like Wolfowitz and Chalabai and has, in the last few years degraded himself into the sleaziest, neocon hired gun imaginable constantly looking for an in to play the A.S card, falling all over himself to smear any opponent, including hiring pamphleteers from the ranks of Norquists catamites to "prep" the audience before his debates and generally morphing into a bloated media whore who laughably wants us to believe that Bush is a champion of "secularism" and that the Likudites dont have any unreasonable pull in the administration (if you say they do you're an anti-semite), and that "Why not blood for oil" (a direct quote) is not an unreasonable position to hold. May he burst like a boil.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:57:30 PM EST
    Jury spares 9/11 plotter Moussaoui Wow...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by BigTex on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:58:56 PM EST
    DC suburb jury. Not a suprise.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Johnny on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:01:00 PM EST
    Good on the jury for not killing a man. Bet that burns the wrong-wingers butts.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:02:08 PM EST
    Fair enough Dadler, I'm not going to hold your feet to the flames, but isn't this:
    a collective sense of wishing we were doing better.
    Because of this:
    That is what we are in the U.S.: consumers from the cradle to the grave. We are taught by the free market from the moment we can see and hear to buy, buy, buy, consume, consume, consume. That some of the "poor" in this nation might actually evidence some influence of this marketing blitz shows only how well it works. All that glitters. Works on fishing lures, too.
    and therefore unhealthy?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    Sarc, At the time...my bedroom was a storage closet, so I can't say I was looking for affluence. Yes, there is an unhealthy nature to our consumer society, without a doubt. For all of us. Dealing with that AND those in genuine need is not in conflict. In fact, they go in tandem. When those of us with the most learn to live with less, the message will be clear. And the resources can be better shared and conserved.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:48:28 PM EST
    Dadler and Sarc, The problem is that America was built upon the idea of self-reliance. THis required that individuals, households and communities produced goods for their own consumption. Rural communities built of small farms produced for themselves and the surplus were kept in local communities. Households and communites were both producers and consumers of local goods and services. The American household and community are no longer producers in the economy. If a community is lucky to have a industry producing goods, the industry is producing almost strictly for export. We have been sold a bill of goods by the corporations that says we can be consumers of products produced by corporati9ons around the world. If we were just buying automobiles and tractors, this might not be a problem, because the global market--through economies of scale--does produce consumer goods very efficiently and cheaply leading to cheap products for most Americans. The problem, and this has a direct impact on the health of our population, is that we are no longer in charge of producing what is essential to the health of our bodies and communities. We don't know how our food is produced or what the nutritional value of this food is compared to food we might have grown ourselves. We also are not taking care of the resources in our communities so we can be sure that they are conserved for future generations for the benefit of our communities--such as our soils, forests and the proper education of our children. All of these resources are currently in the hands of absentee owners--mostly multinational corporations. What is boils down to, is we are rich (although a richness achieved largely through debt)as consumers, but poor as producers. We are at the mercy of large organizations none of us trust--and this includes big government. We don't own and take care of the land that should be used to sustain us. We are suffering because of this neglect--and we will suffer in the future even more, if steps are not taken to change this.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:48:53 PM EST
    Dadler, there are many traps we fall into as a society. One of them is comparing our insides with other's outsides, for example, "He doesn't have to sleep in a closet, so he must be happier than me." Why should only those with the most learn to live with less? Why would that make those with less happy? Wouldn't it make more sense for those with less learn to live with less in order for them to be happy? True happiness is not dependent on what you or anyone else has, or does not have, as I'm sure you know, but, like the rest of us, have trouble living it at times. If only we could all agree in the definition of "genuine need," perhaps the issue would be a lot easier for all of us...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:00:48 PM EST
    Peaches, Excellent post. We don't make anything. Sarc, Why should only the rich learn to live with less? I didn't say they should, but that they must do so more than those with less is kind of self-evident. Again, go back and watch Hoop Dreams. Go to Appalachia. Really investigate the life of the poor in America. And I get the sense you want to define "genuine need" so that some nefarious multitude of undeserving people won't get a dime of public assistance. Is a roof over your head, some clothes on your back, a few burritos in the refrigerator enough? But like Peaches said, we're all just consumers, making little to nothing. A completely dependent, sort of Orwellian existence when you get right down to it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:25:31 PM EST
    Dadler, this convo seems to be veering wildly off course. My main point is that I think it is a tough road to, on the one hand, say our society's desire for more money and more "stuff" is unhealthy, but on the other hand advocate that those who have less should have money and "stuff" given to them by those who have more. If the desire for more is unhealthy, shouldn't it be healthier for those with less to learn to be happy with less?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:40:41 PM EST
    Dadler, I'll make it even purer: I think it is a tough road to, on the one hand, say our society's desire for more money and more "stuff" is unhealthy, but on the other hand advocate that those who have less should have more.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:47:03 PM EST
    ...above, of course, the level of "genuine need."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 05:41:03 PM EST
    Squeaky. Just for you.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 05:50:35 PM EST
    Thanks OW, I saw that earlier. Very funny, She's dogged. Not much else though. Even if you think she is kinda cute.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:12:25 PM EST
    Squwaky quotes Juan C.
    The only way you can have a war on Iran is to draft the young people.
    I see that he is again demonstrating his lack of knowledge regarding military matters. Peaches - There is, alas, no gates. The riff raff can drive right in. Gasp! I can almost agree with you on a variety of issues. The problem I have is I don't see a solution that will work any better than what we have. If civilization collapsed tomorrow, and the internet died with it, what would happen to the collective knowledge level of society? Note the "knowledge" statement, not "wisdom." For example, how many people out there know how to "sucker" tomato plants? Who knows when to plant potato's???

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:17:59 PM EST
    You say I think she's kinda cute, That's a theory just gotta refute. What I find great, Some girl size eight. Of that there's no dispute.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:25:22 PM EST
    Squwaky quotes Juan C. The only way you can have a war on Iran is to draft the young people.
    ppj does a 'Hitchens' and a 'Goldstein.' Presto! out of context, into wingnuttia. Do you guys have a standard issue manual or something? I see that you are a bit cranky. Just have another drink. It works for your pal Hitchens.....sorta.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:27:19 PM EST
    Hurry up Armageddon, Then I get my suit of lead on. My spuds will grow. With internal glow. Cook up well with some gammon.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:43:57 PM EST
    Sarc, There are contradictions in EVERYTHING in life. But a desire to make society less materialistic and consume, consume, consume-oriented can certainly also exist alongside an effort to be more generous to those who have little or nothing. From those who work an honest forty a week and still can't pay rent plus utilities plus food plus car plus many other things, to those in the underclass who are virtually hopeless. And asking people who have the least to sacrifice the most, so they can be happy with LESS than less, sounds nice in theory, but a person can only live with so little and still be a productive member of society. It's like supporting a flat income tax on the basis of equality, when that flat tax will disproportionately, and wildly so, negatively affect those with less. 10 percent of a little bit means a hell of a lot more to a person's ability to survive than 10 percent of a lot means to a person more affluent. Alright, we've veered. I'm gonna try to get back onto the road. Peace.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:47:09 PM EST
    Do not near Armageddon, For I will keep my suit of dread on. My fears will grow. With each new blow. Cook up well with some soldiers.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 06:57:27 PM EST
    Do not fear so much to die, When it comes one big sigh. All I can say, Won't be today. The rapture's comming bye and bye.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:16:55 PM EST
    digby's on fire:
    Ok. Let's go over this again, shall we? Let us stipulate that the left blogosphere is a bunch of shrieking freaks who have completely lost our marbles. We are rude, crude and out of control. But louder than the other side? Because of some blogswarms? If only. For the last twenty years we have had your rightwing radio, your rightwing TV, your rightwing publishing, your rightwing speakers bureaus and your rightwing magazines and your rightwing pulpits. Then you have your imbalanced panels on news shows, your intermarried politicos and journalists and your faux liberal punditocrisy. Yet, our little blogswarms have the entire journalistic establishment all atwitter, wondering what has happened to the discourse?


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:27:36 PM EST
    World War I critics get pardons All, Interesting parallel... From the article:
    Work warned that similar cases could happen again if the nation caves in to fear and hysteria, pitting security against liberty. "It is not until decades later in these cases that we recognize we overstepped our bounds," Work said. Laws designed to enhance security after the 2001 terrorist attacks are encroaching on civil liberties, he said, adding that more attacks would increase pressure to restrict basic freedoms. The governor agreed.


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:46:05 PM EST
    this sort of stuff has already reared its ugly head here in the commets.
    Under Montana's sedition law, it was illegal to make "any disloyal, profane, violent, scurrilous, contemptuous, slurring or abusive" comment about the U.S. Constitution, the federal government, soldiers or sailors, the flag or the uniforms of the Army or Navy. Laws at the time even made it illegal to speak German. Schweitzer, whose ethnic German immigrant parents had recently arrived in Montana, said his grandmother was not allowed to speak the only language she knew while out in public.
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:46:54 PM EST
    For the last twenty years we have had your rightwing radio, your rightwing TV, your rightwing publishing, your rightwing speakers bureaus and your rightwing magazines and your rightwing pulpits.
    ...
    Yet, our little blogswarms have the entire journalistic establishment all atwitter, wondering what has happened to the discourse?
    Doesn't take much to scare the pants off the little wusses, does it? Maybe Digby has nailed the fundamental reason they are so gung-ho on security above all else. Again...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 11:17:38 PM EST
    link deleted, not in html format. Instructions are in comment box

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:22:55 AM EST
    Squeaky - One more time. I provided a direct quote of what Fitzgerald said and gave a link to show the source. That is no more "opinion" that me quoting your comments about Rove's grandparents, and then your smear machine comment. They are simply copies of what you wrote. And my quote from your comment has nothing to do with anything beyond that. It, if I can believe you, is a quote from what Cole wrote. It is not out of context, his comments quoted by you are clearly about Iran and war and they are there for all to read.
    The only way you can have a war on Iran is to draft the young people.
    My comment was:
    I see that he is again demonstrating his lack of knowledge regarding military matters.
    which is a direct disagreement with his knowledge and his conclusion.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peaches on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:45:53 AM EST
    For example, how many people out there know how to "sucker" tomato plants? Who knows when to plant potato's???
    Jim, I hate it when I agree with you. As Aaron said, "I urinate on myself in contempt." But, this is exactly what our children miss in an education. I could go on further. I'll just say, and I think you will agree. The former economy in America, where households were both producers and consumers of goods, were often described as poor. But, as my Grandma said, "We didn't have much money, but we would never have known it. We were never hungry. We always had plenty of food." She grew up on a farm with 6 sisters and one brother. Food was never the problem in those economies. Money was. Often, the surplus on farm was given away or bartered for labor during harvest or other projects. Rural communites based on agriculture are almost always in possession of surplus of food. But, when given away or bartered, this doesn't show up on the balance sheets. No one can make profits from trade. So this economy had to go. THe way to make it go was to take the surplus of labor in rural communites and entice them to the cities with money. My grandparents made the move in the forties, to California--as I am sure you moved from your rural roots around this time also.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:56:24 AM EST
    That is no more "opinion" that me quoting your comments about Rove's grandparents, and then your smear machine comment. They are simply copies of what you wrote.
    Good point as this is exactly the same technique. Out of context quote to malign. No one really cares what you write about me or anyone else for that matter. It is just interesting to note that you are not alone in this kind of pathetically transparent rhetoric.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:46:34 PM EST
    Peaches - You have some good points, but as I have said before, I just can't think of a system that would work better in the modern world. And I understand exactly her comments about food. We always had plenty, 95% of it home grown and/or raised and stored/canned. My Dad saw Imperial Valley on his way home from WWII and I remember him trying to presuade my Mom to go west, but she wouldn't and we stayed where we were. The real issues now are becoming the rapid catch up of (mostly) India and China. In my lifetime I have watched the garment industry leave the NE for the SE and on to China, Vietnam, etc., all in the search for cheap labor. It is obvious our children must do something, but the question is what? In the meantime I am teaching my grandchildren how to be a plumber, the basics of electricty and home wiring and yes, how to raise a garden. I'm thinking of getting some goats to bring them in contact with the world of breeding, raising and slaughtering your own meat. Squeaky - Quoting what a person has said is not attacking them. You said it, you haven't taken it back, so why are you suddenly concerned?

    Wednesday Open Thread | 49 comments (49 topical)