The AV made criminal charges against four men and then did not follow through with any of those charges. Did she lie?

According to the father, she did in fact lie about the first gang rape.

Did she lie about her husband threatening (or attempting) to kill her?

If he were really threatening (or trying) to kill her, how come she walked away from the charges?

We know that she was so mentally ill last year that she was hospitalized for it.

most mental illnesses serious enough to be hospitalized for require medications forever.

I E-Mailed Rod Wheeler for clarification and he responded right away. He said that according to his source they have one and maybe two players who are corroborating PARTS of the AV/s story. He was carefull to say that they were unconfirmed bit did mention that the warrant mentions information from a third party that he is concerned about. I couldn't find that.

IF he saw three men pull the woman into the bathroom, he better be able to tell which three men. If he didn't, I doubt his testimony would be of much use.

Remember the White Car Ruse Nifong used to lead the Times reporter on a goose chase, when in all probability it was Mostafa's simple misrecollection?

I'm about ready to discount the significance of this new rumor from Nifong's "investigation".

This morning the witness and what he saw doesn't sound quite as absolute as last night.

Ron/Rod? Wheeler, former detective talking head on Fox just said he heard from a police person in Durham that there is a cooperating witness from the team. He said this isn't speculation on his part that he was actually told this from the source.

Fox News - Rod Wheeler (not Ron).

He does have a source IN the police dept who told him this directly. He cannot comfirm if this is true yet from more than the one source.

I E-Mailed Rod Wheeler for clarification and he responded right away. He said that according to his source they have one and maybe two players who are corroborating PARTS of the AV/s story. He was carefull to say that they were unconfirmed bit did mention that the warrant mentions information from a third party that he is concerned about. I couldn't find that.

I'm not so sure about that. Rule 608(b) is an exception to Rule 404. It doesn't allow extrinsic evidence, but it allows the defense to ask the accuser about a lot of these incidents [on cross examination].

b) Specific instances of conduct. - Specific instances of the conduct of a witness, for the purpose of attacking or supporting his credibility, other than conviction of crime as provided in Rule 609, may not be proved by extrinsic evidence. They may, however, in the discretion of the court, if probative of truthfulness or untruthfulness, be inquired into on cross‑examination of the witness (1) concerning his character for truthfulness or untruthfulness . . . .

In order to be admissible under this Rule, evidence of specific instances of conduct offered for impeachment purposes must satisfy four basic prerequisites: (1) the purpose of producing the evidence must be to impeach or enhance the witness' credibility by proving that the witness' conduct indicates his character for truthfulness or untruthfulness; (2) the conduct in question must be both probative of truthfulness or untruthfulness, and not too remote in time; (3) the conduct in question must be conduct that did not result in a conviction; and (4) the inquiry into the conduct must take place during cross-examination.

If a rape did occurred based on what the rape kit report said to Nifong, how could the accuser remember who her attackers are and what exactly happened to her when she was so intoxicated and almost "pass-out drunk"?

I E-Mailed Rod Wheeler for clarification and he responded right away. He said that according to his source they have one and maybe two players who are corroborating PARTS of the AV/s story. He was carefull to say that they were unconfirmed bit did mention that the warrant mentions information from a third party that he is concerned about. I couldn't find that.

A special case is the fact that she was an escort and allegedly seeing approx. 3 clients a week. This would be relevant as to whether sex with some other person might have caused her injuries. So evidence on that subject, or asking the AV on cross, would probably be admissible. Wouldn't they have to show these dates included sex?

"Didn't you tell the news that you averaged 3 escort dates a week?" "Did you have any sex with any of your escort clients within xxx days of the alleged rape?"

Even purposely avoiding the newspapers or the Internet doesn't guarantee safe haven from propaganda about the case. [Butch] Williams has been trumpeting his clients' innocence whether cameras are rolling or not. When he heard himself mentioned in conversation at a Durham barbershop by the man in the next chair -- this writer, who didn't know him -- Williams began telling all present about certain members of the team who were at the party and whether one of his clients called for the dancers to attend, and then mentioned details of a meeting he had with Roberts, the second dancer. Later, Williams appeared at a 15th anniversary celebration for a local architecture firm, and again discussed the case in detail. "We all just wanted him to shut up," said a person in attendance. Compared to this circus, the made-for-Court TV murder trial of Peterson back in 2003 was a petting zoo.

In an editorial in the Capital Weekly of Tallahassee, Fla., attorney Chuck Hobbs wrote that both sides in this case -- Nifong as well as the defense attorneys -- have behaved unethically when they've dealt with the press. Hobbs, who has worked rape cases both for the state and for the defense, took specific umbrage with Bill Thomas, who represents one of the lacrosse captains and claimed the accusation of rape was simply a story concocted by the alleged victim to avoid being arrested for public drunkenness. For Thomas to say that with no corroboration, Hobbs said, is "blatant sophistry." In a telephone interview, Hobbs said statements like that taint jury pools. People get confused. "I've been there [as an attorney]," Hobbs said. "All this talk from the defense is smoke and mirrors."

How would that line of questioning work if she was a married woman. Could they ask her how many times a week she had sex with her husband in the weeks before that night?

....evidence of specific instances of sexual behavior offered for the purpose of showing that the act or acts charged were not committed by the defendant;

When I think about it, it may be true. If you look at the search warrant for the suspects home, it talks about police receiving information from "a third party" . This third party, I suspect, is the team player that's cooperating with the cops.

Can anyone say whether an alleged rape of this duration and magnitude with immediate SANE exam ever doesn't produce sufficient DNA evidence for a positive ID if you have DNA from the alleged perpetrators?

If they did have semen DNA and it is not from the LAX players,

Rough sex can make you very sore and swollen but an actual injury?

I asked IMHO about whether any semen was found on the AV, but didn't understand his answer. One of the defense atty's claims there was none.

Suppose Nifong wanted to get some lacrosse players--any lacrosse players--would he put only lacrosse players' pix in front of AV? Is there any other reason to do so?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to include some pix of guys who couldn't have been involved--as they do in lineups?

For some reason Seligmann wanted to get out of there and away from the party as quickly as possible. He had already made that decision at least by 12:14 AM when he called for a cab. Together with the several calls to his girlfriend before and after 12:14 tells me that he did not like the turn that events had taken at the party, wanted to distance himself from them as quickly as he could. And I believe that he wanted to hear the reassuring voice of his girlfriend as his reality check.

hew2, as she is a self-described "escort" doing "one-on-one dates" perhaps your imagination would be as good as ours.

I think I heard on GVS several weeks ago from a retired LEO that there were grumblings in the Durham DP that Nifong took the case out of their hands much too early. Was that Wheeler who reported that rumor?

I think I heard on GVS several weeks ago from a retired LEO that there were grumblings in the Durham DP that Nifong took the case out of their hands much too early. Was that Wheeler who reported that rumor?

The term "rough sex" originated in a murder trial in 1986.

Findings: Following sexual assault, the cervix was the location most frequently injured site, followed by the labia minora, posterior fourchette, vagina, and mouth. 58% of the women had no genital injury and 42% had injury. One of the ten female subjects (10% injury rate) in the prospective study experienced a single genital injury following consensual sex. The location of injury was on the posterior fourchette.

Conclusions: The literature supports the theory that consensual sex is associated with lower rates of genital injury than that of non-consensual sex. We found similar results in our prospective consensual sample. Following non-consensual sex, women had an injury rate of 42% whereas following consensual sex, women had an injury rate of 10%.

I'd like to see the injury rate for "consensual sex that was bought and paid for."

But what is your point - that there are no forms of non-rape sex that might lead to bruising and injury?

As to S&M, it's almost 100% the escort who inflicts the punishment. The reverse is too risky.

and I believe anal sex almost always causes very small tears.

chew2, Ok, fair enough, so what was your meaning?

Several years later, Slaughter et al. (1997) reported on colposcopic findings following rape in 311 women and children and compared them to 75 controls. They found positive anogenital findings in 68% (213 of 311) of rape victims as compared to a rate of 11% in controls having consensual sex (n=75). Rape victims had a mean number of injury sites equaling 3.1. Of the control (consensual sex) subjects, only 11% (8 of 75) had documented injury. All 8 subjects had a single site of injury, and in the 4 injured control participants who returned for follow-up, all injuries had resolved by the time of the second visit.

The day after the March 13 team party where a 27-year-old black woman claimed she was raped, Durham police told campus officers that "this will blow over," the report said. It said that the woman initially told police she was raped by 20 white men, then said she was attacked by three.

Not to dwell on this topic but don't most condoms come pre-lubed these days?

In fact, this may be what the lacrosse team members wanted, a lesbian sex show by the two strippers with toys. They wanted to see some penentration.

I think so too. Why pay for two just to dance? That may have been part of the misunderstanding between the dancers and players since they didn't bring any sex toys.

There's a big question whether the team members wanted black dancers or were surprised by this. Some unsourced rumors claim they were surprised and disappointed that the dancers were black and that this increased the hostility.

Defense attorneys say the lacrosse players requested two white dancers for the party, but the two African-American women showed up.

I don't think you can interprete "raped and sexually assaulted by 20 white members of a Duke team" any other way than it is written.

She was so scared she started to cry at that moment.

Just moments after she and another exotic dancer started to perform, she said, men in the house started barking racial slurs. The two women, both black, stopped dancing.

"We started to cry," she said. "We were so scared."

Why the three week delay on the photo lineup?

We don't know what the LEO observed at the hospital

Kerry Sutton, another lawyer for Evans, said after court she had never had a deferred prosecution deal withdrawn after a client had met the community service and financial requirements.

"I've never understood that it (deferred prosecution) required perfect behavior," Sutton said. "I will certainly caution my clients in the future."

Reading the 2nd page, I think it is clear that it was the official Durham police report that was reviewed by the Duke PD Director on the morning of March 14 and not some "second hand source".

The report did say a female Duke police officer tried to calm and reassure the accuser at the hospital where she was taken by police hours after the party. The woman, the Duke officer said, was "crying uncontrollably and visibly shaken ... shaking, crying and upset." That behavior, the report said, "doesn't suggest that the case was likely to just 'go away."' The statements about the accuser's credibility were part of a major failure of communications between police and several members of Duke's administration, the report said.

Their [Duke University ]report does not say who at the Durham Police Department cast doubt on the accuser's complaint. But, it said, allowing those comments to shape Duke's thinking "was a major mistake."

OK, I'll admit I was wrong. The LEO did observe the victim.

Remember the White Car Ruse Nifong used to lead the Times reporter on a goose chase, when in all probability it was Mostafa's simple misrecollection?

I'm not saying she was or wasn't raped. I'm asking why anyone believes her versions of events.

Be nice guys. Our host could kick us out of her house.

"There are reports from several sources that members of the Durham police force initially (March 14) made comments to Duke police officers and others to the effect that the complainant 'kept changing her story and was not credible;' that 'if any charges were brought, they would be no more than misdemeanors;' and that 'this will blow over.'"