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Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credibility

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:19:54 AM EST
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The Herald Sun reports on a new round of attacks on the Duke lacrosse accuser's credibility in the alleged rape case.

For example, three defense sources, who asked not to be identified, said a forensic examination of the alleged victim found no tearing, bleeding or other injury associated with a sexual assault. Instead, the exam detected only swelling in the accuser's vagina and tenderness in her breasts and lower right body, the sources said.

The defense sources also said Tuesday that, according to the records Nifong handed over last week, the woman at one point said that a second dancer also was in the bathroom where the incident allegedly occurred. But the sources said that when asked about this, the second dancer replied, "That's a crock."

In other new information, the accuser told police her alleged attackers did not use condoms, the defense sources said.

DA Nifong has declined to comment on the new information.

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    Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credibility | 298 comments (298 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:30:28 AM EST
    Sadly this case is slowly disapearing from the radar way before we find out that most likely this was a sham. Fortunately most people have assumed that this was a sham and have moved on. If the victim was hurt then she will have her chance to proove it when the case is played out. If this was a false accusation I feel bad for the real victims the players who've had their season cancled and their names dragged through the mud. I hope, but won't count on, the media will report the story with as much vigor and gusto when we find out either way.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:37:24 AM EST
    Yale Galanter Criminal defense attorney, in her own words: GALANTER: Oh, they`re ecstatic. I mean this was a treasure trove of defense material. And it really -- as weak as we thought Mike Nifong`s case was before he turned over this 1,300 pages, the two tapes, and the one disk scan last Thursday, today, it`s even worse than we could have ever imagined. Look at what we have here. We know that these -- that she told the police different stories, inconsistent stories, people were in the bathroom with her. But let`s just look at what the bottom line story was that we believe Mike Nifong indicted these boys on. They forcibly raped her for 30 minutes in the bathroom. They used no condoms at all. We now know that there are no abrasions, tears, bleeding in the vaginal area. What I`ve been told the report says, Dan, is that there was swelling only. There was tenderness in her breasts and other areas. There may have been a little redness, but the only abnormality in the vaginal cavity or the vaginal area was swelling. We know that there was no DNA. We now know that there was no toxicology done. If these three boys actually had intercourse with this woman anally and vaginally, some of their cells would have been there, there were not... Those of you still believing this fantasy tale, given the nails were left in the trashcan, what do you think the boys did with the used condoms? Not in the trashcan. Put them in their pockets?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:38:36 AM EST
    This case is getting sadder and sadder.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:05:20 AM EST
    I was honestly expecting that the medical report would prove extremely compelling from the standpoint of the prosecution. What other explanation could there be for the DA's aggressive approach in prosecuting the case, I figured. Obviously, I have some doubts now, but before I give up the ghost, let me ask a question to the group. Given that we haven't seen the medical report and that the defense is obviously spinning here, is it possible that the medical report contains evidence (pictures?) that a jury would find compelling on its face or is this what we get - physical evidence that requires the interpretation of a professional? Given the AV's credibility problems and other known facts about the case, I can't imagine a person being convinced that a sexual assault occurred without overwhelming physical evidence.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#5)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:14:13 AM EST
    There are people here who still cling to political correctness in labeling the "sex worker/AV" and take great umbrage at the use of the vernacular in reference to the AV's night job. Political correctness is a great place to hide when the case goes south. The Lynne Duke article is precisely what's wrong with the coverage of this case. It was published today. Surely Ms. Duke might have been reading about developments in this case before handing the column to her editor. Love this line: "But whatever actually happened that March 13 night at Duke University..." If what appears to have happened is prosecuted the AV won't have to worry about bad names. She'll be referred to by a number given to her by the prison system. Are there cruel stereotypes of black women in America? You bet. There are even crueler stereotypes of black men. There are cruel stereotypes of lots of people and they all hurt. But by tying your thesis to an ex-felon with mental illness problems who is a sex worker apparently performing sex acts over the weekend prior to the Buchanan engagement and then apparently falsely charging innocent men of a very serious crime for some benefit accruing to her, well, it doesn't do your argument much good. Surely you few who still cling to defending the AV understand the precariousness of your rhetoric in the current circumstances. Don't you?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#6)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:32:26 AM EST
    For example, chew 2 wrote: Calling the victim a Ho, whore or prostitute is symbolic villification. It's meant to label her, to degrade her, and to shame her. You ignore her other humanity, struggling mother and honor student trying to better her life. I think that chew2 and other defenders are ignoring the humanness of all the people involved. The problem here is that it's becoming apparent the the real victims are the three men charged with rape. If she had taken her children with her to the job and tucked them into bed before dancing, maybe her motherhood would have entered the discussion, although there is other work besides sex work that the AV could have been doing. If she had shown up at the Buchanan house in the roll of honor student to help lacrosse players with her studies and was raped for her troubles, well, then maybe her scholarship would have something to do with the case. Maybe the AV bakes cookies for wounded vets and pushes wheelchairs around the local VA hospital. Maybe she's on the verge of discovering how to get cold fusion to solve all the world's energy problems. On the night in question the AV was apparently a drunken stripper who lied about a gangrape and allowed evidence of previous consenual liasons to be used to construct a prosecution against three innocent humans. She should be prosecuted and sent to jail. Good mothers don't commit stupid felonies that will separate them from their kids for years. I don't know what higher education opportunities are available in the NC penal system, but I hope she takes advantage of them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:36:41 AM EST
    Sharon, You wrote:
    "Nothing to worry about, even if guilty"?
    Yes. I don't think Nifong will be able to cross the "reasonable doubt" threshhold.
    How about the threat of being found guilty, even if innocent, and spending 40+ years enjoying the hospitality of the North Carolina prison system?
    In my estimation the risk of that happening is lower than the risk that a mile wide meteor will hit the earth in the next ten years, creating a nuclear winter that kills us all off. After all, that's soething has actually happened before.
    How about having to spend tens of thousands of dollars on attorneys' fees?
    Court is free. If you choose to be represented by an attorney, that's voluntary. This case, as I have said countless times, didn't require any attorneys. They are "churning."
    How about being out $400,000 for the duration of the case?
    It's a loan not a gift. If it doesn't get reduced, well, they've got the wrong judge.
    How about having your and your family's personal information, pictures, home addresses available for every and any crackpot racist out there to target?
    You seem not to be concerned with the accuser's name being released. I view such things as a consequence of the first amendment. Trials should be open and public.
    If you are open to the possibility that the accused are innocent, how can you be so callous?
    Because being brought to trial simply means the raising of a question. It doesn't mean that the question has been answered. That's what juries do. I'm in favor of the process, because it represents the advance of civilization.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#8)
    by james on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:52:20 AM EST
    I'd imagine, to address an earlier comment, that they are not releasing the report (leaking it) to prevent an immediate gag order. That would not be good for their case (they are trying to convince 'on the face' durham residents (read: potential jury pool of middle class blacks) that the woman is full of it. What, would you like them to release photos of her breasts and vagina? Seriously? Do you know how much outrage there would be over that? Releasing the copies of the report would be a problem from a gag order point of view and isn't necessary if Nifong refuses to deny their assertions. In fact, with Nifong's history, he is confirming it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#9)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:54:29 AM EST
    Women get raped. It's crap like this which makes it increasingly difficult to convince a jury. Not only is the AV guilty in this, so is Nifong, so is the media who jumped all over this as a sensational slam dunk of a metatheme (plantation owner screwing slave women), and so did all the lefties who presumed the laxers were guilty--and who cling to the belief, at least publicly, despite evidence against them. Future rapists have a lot to be grateful for in this case.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#10)
    by james on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:58:14 AM EST
    Court is free. If you choose to be represented by an attorney, that's voluntary. This case, as I have said countless times, didn't require any attorneys. They are "churning."
    This court did require attorneys who are above and beyond what the public defenders can offer. It required people who would dedicate their time to publicize the case, not a public defender who has many, many cases to deal with. It also required investigators that the public defenders office cannot provide, which is sad for all the other indigent defendants.
    It's a loan not a gift. If it doesn't get reduced, well, they've got the wrong judge.
    Would you like to 'loan' Durham 400k on a flimsy charge? 400k is a good deal of money for any person - the accused parents are not super rich. I'd imagine they need the money for legal fees. There's always a balancing act between the fees and the bond. If they have a need for the cash they will either have to take out a loan (HELOC on their house) or secure the bond on their house and pay the security fee. Both are not fair because you don't get it back.
    Because being brought to trial simply means the raising of a question. It doesn't mean that the question has been answered. That's what juries do. I'm in favor of the process, because it represents the advance of civilization.
    Juries can be wrong. Judges also have a duty to ensure that nothing goes to trial that is not supported by evidence. The natural conclusion to a case is not a jury trial in all instances.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:33:39 PM EST
    What nobody wants to take me up and come up with the "maybe" ( you were so good with the tox report/daterape drug and the broom ) about where the used condoms ended up?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#12)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:36:40 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    But by tying your thesis to an ex-felon...
    There you go again... Do you even care that you post erroneous information?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:42:33 PM EST
    What is worse, public urination or grand theft auto and fleeing and eluding police?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#16)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:45:50 PM EST
    gmax posted:
    What nobody wants to take me up and come up with the "maybe" ( you were so good with the tox report/daterape drug and the broom ) about where the used condoms ended up?
    It's not EC, but people do flush them down the toilet.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#18)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    Jlvngstn posted:
    What is worse, public urination or grand theft auto and fleeing and eluding police?
    Who was convicted of grand theft auto?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#19)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    a "boyfriend", two "drivers", five or more "clients" two Duke lacross "players"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#20)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    january posted:
    PB, does this mean you would vote to acquit?
    PB posted:
    I'm in favor of the process, because it represents the advance of civilization.
    I'd guess by "the process" he meant evidence produced at an actual trial, not the research, analysis and specultion of blog commenters. I'd think people would want a little more information than we are all going on before casting a vote even on just a blog.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#21)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:20:34 PM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    She and her "boyfriends" are trash.
    The boys are not.
    Orinoco, Keep talking like that and you'll get yourself thown off the jury.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#22)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:26:09 PM EST
    imho posted:
    She would have been less than three hours pregnant
    ding777 posted:
    Why?
    Well, she got to the house around 11:45 and the S.A.N.E. exam was less than three hours later.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:36:35 PM EST
    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion May 24, 2006 02:00 PM
    Jlvngstn posted: What is worse, public urination or grand theft auto and fleeing and eluding police?
    Who was convicted of grand theft auto?
    IMHO: This is pedantry and distortion on your part. Jlvngstn did not say "convicted" and you know perfectly well the GTA charge was plea bargained down to a series of misdemeanors. It is sophistry to allege that she did not steal the car. She did. You are simply taunting people with this sort of thing -- and I suspect "reveling" in it too. Touché.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:49:33 PM EST
    IMHO, Tying your thesis to a woman who was charged with felonies and then plea-bargained them to misdemeanors.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:50:02 PM EST
    Car thief?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#28)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:51:47 PM EST
    I think TalkLeft said she will provide this site for us to discuss the case but not to trash the accuser or the players. Can't we lay off the attacks on her character and just discuss the facts?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:52:32 PM EST
    imho: re a possible pregnancy: those symptoms (tenderness and abdominal discomfort) can last from the moment of conception until delivery. Most common is in the first trimester when the hormones kick it up a notch and the body prepares for the blessed event.She could have been impregnated days or weeks before that evening. I've heard "experts" saying that the lack of vaginal bleeding, tearing, cuts or abrasions is not unusual when a rape has occurred. I wish one of the questioners would say, "I'll accept that about the vag*nal penetration, but what about in the case of an an*l rape by two men? Given those facts would you not expect to find bleeding, tears and abrasions?" Even consensual an*l intercourse will produce that in most cases. Maybe that's a part of the SANE report that the defense did not reveal. Vagin*l area only swollen, an*l area more trauma visible. Still the problem of: was it the lax players or the boyfriend, or the drivers.?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:54:26 PM EST
    Oh yeah, or the 5 weekend dates.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#31)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:59:33 PM EST
    If proven in a court of law that the AV in fact lied could Bunny Hole be sued? What's it called? Respondiat superior?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#32)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:02:07 PM EST
    She wasn't actually charged with grand theft auto, but I'll play along... If she was charged with it, and plead to a lesser charge, she must have done it? Ever heard of overcharging a defendant? If the players have to plead to anything less than rape can we all assume they were charged with rape, and plead down, so we know they are rapists? SLOphoto
    You are simply taunting people with this sort of thing --
    "This sort of thing" being: correcting false/misleading information?
    and I suspect "reveling" in it too.
    Reveling? I couldn't revel loud enough to be heard over those taking delight in trashing the accuser. It's been an eye-opener.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#33)
    by chew2 on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    Washington Post legal commentator, Andrew Cohen on the media insanity and defense spin:
    Don't blame defense attorneys. Their continuous dog-and-pony shows, which culminated Monday with the unseemly sight of a rape suspect brash-talking before live television cameras, are precisely what many zealous attorneys would do in the course of their represenation of a high-profile client. The ceaseless "official" announcements by these attorneys, who by definition do not have access to all of the facts of the case, are designed for one reason only. And that is to sell to potential jurors their narrative of the case -- that this is a story of sweet, innocent boys getting their lives ruined by a "nut and a slut", to use the obnoxious phrase .... If you read more into what the defense lawyers are saying now, you are fooling yourself...... But don't blame the prosecutor, either. After an early case blunder in which he promised more than he could deliver, Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong has generally resisted the temptation to ride the whirlwind of media coverage and duel it out with defense attorneys via the media.... Whom to blame? This case needs a judge like a hungry wolf needs a pork chop. It needs a judge to quickly issue a gag order that will end until trial the silliness we've seen over the past few weeks.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:11:09 PM EST
    But of course I am. In a society that purports to have concern over facts and innocence that has nightly blasted the players faces on the boob tube without any regard as to their guilt or innocence, I cannot help to think that the system is broke. Those willing to gossip without any knowledge of what happened that night as they were not there, who continue to act as if they know whether or not this woman is being truthful, should have something to agitate them and I for one am happy to oblige. I make no apolgies for saying the woman is a criminal, not GTA mind you but she was given a reduction in the charges which demonstrates the fairness of the CJ system. In turn, we are given nightly reviews of the "rapists" photos and their public urination complaints as evidence of their criminal tendencies. She stole a car. She went on a joy ride evading police. She is a hooker. She was intoxicated. She may have made up the entire story. I for one do not know what happened in the house that night, were you there? Isn't the size of the Johnson material if their was bruising and shouldn't those men be scrutinized as well? I think so.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#35)
    by january on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:25:56 PM EST
    From IMHO
    I'd guess by "the process" he meant evidence produced at an actual trial, not the research, analysis and specultion of blog commenters. I'd think people would want a little more information than we are all going on before casting a vote even on just a blog.
    No argument, IMHO - I was addressing PB's pronouncement that the lacrosse players would not be convicted. I wondered why he is so (bitterly? sarcastically? resignedly?) certain of it. From Orinoco
    Well, a "working mother of two" of course. Oh, and don't forget "3.0 GPA student". And she "served" in the Navy! Good work ethics too, five dates! on a weekend no less.
    Of course! What WAS I thinking?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:32:04 PM EST
    Posted by Teresa May 24, 2006 02:51 PM
    I think TalkLeft said she will provide this site for us to discuss the case but not to trash the accuser or the players.
    Trashing yes, but the title of today's forum is "More Attacks on Accuser's Credibility." In terms of credibility, within just a few weeks of discussion on this blog, I have watched this case go from a Probable rape case, to a Plausible rape case, to a Possible rape case, to a Not-impossible rape case, to a Not-completely impossible rape case To an almost certain hoax, false-allegation case. Yet I still see the same old tired, completely irrelevant, misleading, taken-out-of-context, petty aspersions being cast on the character of the lax players -- they got mad and said some bad, nasty words -- as if any of it had any bearing at all on their credibility in any genuine rape allegation. It doesn't. It only has bearing on the sham "trial" of their political guilt. There is no need to establish objective guilt if we are free to substitute political guilt. The lax players don't need to be shown guilty because it is true, only because it is necessary. Kafka, The Trial (paraphrased) It is not necessary to accept everything as true, only to accept it as necessary, said the priest. But, said Kafka, then the world is based on lies.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:35:25 PM EST
    Wait I thought it was a blue wall of silence, now its a unseemly sight, a player calmly and rationally telling his story. And Nifong did not poison the jury pool, wasnt there comments about thuggish behavior and sureness of a rape and hinting at tox reports of date rape and Sheesh Andrew Cohen has rectal cranial inversion. You know why there is not a gag order in this trial. Nifong. His own behavior was so offensive that any request for such an order would be met by the Defense loudly telling the judge that setting the record straight that the prosecutor bent, is their ethical requirement and any gag order would be extremely detrimental to their clients. And they would be right.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#38)
    by chew2 on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:37:47 PM EST
    January,
    What should one call a prostitute if one wishes to avoid symbolic villification?
    What I was really objecting to was Bob's use of the epithet "whore" to vilify the victim. Read my original post: Here's what Bob said:
    It's one thing to be a whore making money, another thing to be a drunken whore whose audience finds her unattractive.
    Here's what I said:
    Calling the victim a Ho, whore or prostitute is symbolic villification. It's meant to label her, to degrade her, and to shame her. You ignore her other humanity, struggling mother and honor student trying to better her life.
    "Prostitute" is not as loaded as "whore", but most of those calling the AV a "prostitute" have used it as an epithet also, to demean her. Whether she had sex prior to the party is a relevant issue. (Note the defense is not claiming consensual sex here.) It's not necessary to name call in order to discuss that relevant issue. Bob said:
    My bigger point here is the inflation of whatever happened there into a symbology when the point should have been whether or not a crime had been committed.
    I said he was being a hypocrite.
    You're being a hypocrite in two ways. First, your use of labels like "whore" show you use that same symbology yourself. Second if it wasn't for the symbology no one would care about this case, not even you. The Duke defenders wouldn't be out here if this was an alleged gang rape by a bunch of homeless bums, and neither would you. No one would care if the defendants weren't privileged white athletes. Why do you think the conservative press is so solidly on the side of the lacrosse team? It's not surprising that black female opinion makers feel similarly protective of the AV.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:42:44 PM EST
    I repeat: It is sophistry to allege that she did not steal the car. She did.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    And they were kind enough to reduce the charges so as not to take a mother from her children. Sounds like the CJ system was quite fair to her..........

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#41)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:05:47 PM EST
    SLOphoto posted:
    I repeat: It is sophistry to allege that she did not steal the car. She did.
    Did I allege she didn't steal a car?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#42)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:13:28 PM EST
    And they were kind enough to reduce the charges so as not to take a mother from her children. Sounds like the CJ system was quite fair to her..........
    I think they gave her the weekend sentence because she had a job at a factory and was going to school at the time. Her attorney said he had her bring in her pay stubs and school records. I think that's why she got a break, she didn't have the M.O. of the usual suspects prosecutors deal with or that appear before a judge.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#23)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:20:45 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:22:15 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:23:12 PM EST
    rank speculation deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#17)
    by january on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:24:45 PM EST
    PB said
    In my estimation the risk of that (lax players being convicted) happening is lower than the risk that a mile wide meteor will hit the earth in the next ten years, creating a nuclear winter that kills us all off. After all, that's soething has actually happened before.
    PB, does this mean you would vote to acquit?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#43)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    the unseemly sight of a rape suspect brash-talking before live television cameras
    Yeah, the nerve of that guy. Proclaiming his innocence even though he was indicted -- does he have no respect for authority?!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:49:33 PM EST
    January, You wrote:
    PB, does this mean you would vote to acquit?
    If I were a juror and closing arguments had just ended today, of course I would acquit. But its a silly question, since I haven't heard Nifong's case. If I was asked on the basis of what I know today to convict the accuser of filing false charges, I'd acquit her to. If I was asked in a Civil suit today whether to award the accused damages for defammatory statements made against her by Orinoco and Bob in Pacifica (among others) I would award her the judgment. If I were asked to award judgment against anyone at this site for making defammatory statements about the Duke Lacrosse players, I would not. Any questions?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:22:48 PM EST
    PB wrote:
    If I were a juror and closing arguments had just ended today, of course I would acquit. But its a silly question, since I haven't heard Nifong's case.
    In 70+ interviews, and in various court filings, we've heard a good deal of Nifong's case. It's not as if he's been busy since his media barrage uncovering new evidence. He hasn't even found the time to check the accuser's cellphone.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:25:06 PM EST
    Ori, adios muchacho, although it would appear that this case is on its last legs and you really won't be missing much...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:28:54 PM EST
    Del, You wrote:
    It's just that an ugly little part of me, no doubt put there by some white ancestor, thinks that taking off your clothes and shaking your parts for a roomful of drunken frat boys is somewhere well past center on the consent continuum.
    When you live in a nice place where people are genuinely decent to one another, you forget the kind of attitudes that still persist in crueler sectors of the memepool. Your variant on the "she was dressed for it" defense is pretty close to Teddy Roosevelt's conception of women's rights. As I understand it, he considered the idea of a woman abstaining from sex within marriage "race suicide." My own belief is that a woman has every right to turn down sex even when in the midst of it. But then, I am an unrepentant feminist. Elizabeth Cady Stanton for President!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:31:04 PM EST
    chew2 Except for the part about the unseemly sight of Evans publicly defending himself, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Andrew Cohen wrote. If only the defense is presenting their case publicly, they'd have to be incompetent if they didn't leave the impression that the evidence on their side is absolutely overwhelming. The defense lawyers here are very competent. But the story we're getting from them is spun like a top. (The same thing applies to a prosecutor going before a grand jury.) To take it in as the whole story is naive. That doesn't mean I think Nifong is going to get a conviction, but I don't think he's going to get laughed out of court. And I do think that Nifong is trying to stay out of the public eye now. His initial interview blitz was a horrible idea. We got some info from him then, but it was from a time when his strategy was likely completely different (i.e. when he thought he'd get DNA evidence). He's obviously going to present things very differently at trial.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:34:00 PM EST
    PB
    My own belief is that a woman has every right to turn down sex even when in the midst of it.
    I couldn't agree more. A man and woman can be naked in bed, but if the woman says no to sex and the man forces her that's rape in my book.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:36:30 PM EST
    Khartoum, You wrote:
    In 70+ interviews, and in various court filings, we've heard a good deal of Nifong's case. It's not as if he's been busy since his media barrage uncovering new evidence. He hasn't even found the time to check the accuser's cellphone.
    The number "70" gets bandied about as if the number of interviews Nifong gave is some measure of the amount of information he has released to the public. Obviously it's not. Most of the interviews must have been redundant, don't you think? I personally can think of very few "facts" about the case that I have culled from those 70 interviews. Most of what I have learned about the prosecution's case has come from the search warrants and the stuff dished by the defense. Do you disagree?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#51)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:44:43 PM EST
    ugly woman, unmarried, no sex since the Johnson administration
    translation: (chewing on fingers to keep from translating)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#52)
    by weezie on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:44:50 PM EST
    There is another thread concerning post conviction DNA on this site. I'm sittin' here wonderin' if the players are convicted, will they be able to summon that DNA (from the FA's dream date boyfriend/pimp) evidence and then get their case reversed on appeal? I also posted this there because I am a slow thinker.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:57:16 PM EST
    Nifong gets no credit for being "silent" now, and claiming unfair spin by the defense. How do you explain his "well there may be no DNA if condoms were used" comment. The reports say the AV said NO condoms were used. He knew that, and he knew there would be no players DNA found. The tortured reasoning that some are using that these players are not innocent must make their heads swell worse than Barry Bonds. To Leonardo da Orinoco: !epiws eeknay taht was I

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:57:53 PM EST
    Orinoco has been banned after replying to my warning with personal insults. All of his comments on all TalkLeft threads have been deleted. He says he doesn't care, but he took the time to post more than 400 of them. And no, he doesn't get to answer because he has been banned.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:58:51 PM EST
    Thank you.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:25:09 PM EST
    PB posted:
    Most of what I have learned about the prosecution's case has come from the search warrants and the stuff dished by the defense.
    In his interviews, he described how the attack allegedly occurred (and even demonstrated it himself!)--critical for understanding this case. He assaulted the character of the team members--critical in a case like this, with so little evidence of a crime, since a jury would decide on the basis of credibility. The search warrants, the arrest warrant (giving the date of the crime as March 14, not March 13 or March 13-14), as well as the court motion he filed, are part of the prosecution's case. So too, critically, is the 15-page transcript of the photo ID. These are all his documents, and we've seen all of them. So the idea that we haven't seen the basics of the prosecution's case seems to me hard to defend. As we now know Nifong has no toxicology report and no DNA evidence, it's not as if there's medical evidence he didn't share publicly. And all of us can, I suspect, imagine the spin that he'll put on the SANE nurse's report and the police report, just as we can imagine how the defense will spin both of these documents. I suspect that some of the posters on this board could do a better job of spinning these documents than Nifong could. Compare this to another high-profile case--the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation of Karl Rove and Scooter Libby. I have no idea what Fitzgerald has. But in this case, we have a very good sense of what Nifong has. What's so bizarre about this case to me is that we seem to have moved toward a situation of guilty-until-proved-innocent, and an argument that we should just ignore all the procedural violations in the compilation of evidence, and then the case should move forward if there's a 1-in-100 or 1-in-1000 chance that a jury might believe the accuser and ignore everything else. It seems to me our system isn't designed to work that way.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#57)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:31:03 PM EST
    khartoum, could you explain to me why the March 14 day is important. I haven't heard any theories that take place before midnight. Have I missed one? Are you just referring to the DA's timeline and that he can't move it back?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:36:49 PM EST
    Hi Rogan, You wrote:
    All this lecturing about it being rape if the woman doesn't consent and invoking Elizabeth Cady Stanton is a subtle version of the race/gender card: If you don't agree with me, you are sexist/racist etc.
    Well, first of all, what does rape and Elizabeth Cady Stanton have to do with "race?" And second of all, what is "subtle" about the argument that the way one dresses does not constitute consent for sex? I don't think the opposite of feminist is "sexist," by the way. I think it's "mysogenist."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion May 24, 2006 02:31 PM deleted
    IMHO, did someone rile you up and you lost your temper? I'm in disbelief!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:46:10 PM EST
    Rogan, Did you read the post that got this started? Del wrote:
    It's just that an ugly little part of me, no doubt put there by some white ancestor, thinks that taking off your clothes and shaking your parts for a roomful of drunken frat boys is somewhere well past center on the consent continuum.
    I think it's fair to respond a statement like that, don't you? PB and I both argued that working as a stripper doesn't mean you automatically consent to whatever a customer feels like doing to you. Maybe that strikes you as a *crazy* argument, but I don't think we're on extreme feminist fringe here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:47:23 PM EST
    I have to tell you what I find perhaps the most reprehensible: Nifong's arrest of the Sudanese cabbie. But more so, the total lack of outrage by any of the AV supporters here, the local community, the opportunist activists. Quite the opposite. It was silence. He is obviously not a rich elitist, and he doesn't carry the baggage of the AV. He was treated like a speedbump by Nifong. But as I said before, he is helping the wrong horse in this race, so he is expendable. This may be a risky hypothetical in today's times: In a reversal of races by the AV and the players, he would have been the poster child for a malicious racist prosecution run amok. It would have been the last straw. The public outcry, and from every end of the media, from mainstream to conservative, would have been enough to end this case and oust Nifong.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:50:24 PM EST
    I think the point of this case isn't "Can a stripper be a victim of rape" but "Is THIS stripper the victim of rape (or was there even any sex at all between her and the Duke boys?)"
    I think it should be. Unfortunately, even just from observing this blog one can see people making it out to be exactly that. Snickering comments on her sexual prowess, the original ones on how "maybe her pimp beat her up", it is getting pretty ugly. You can't ask people to not ask the questions even when there is an elephant in the living room.
    All this lecturing about it being rape if the woman doesn't consent and invoking Elizabeth Cady Stanton is a subtle version of the race/gender card: If you don't agree with me, you are sexist/racist etc.
    If I recall correctly, somebody actually suggested a woman removing her clothes in front of a man should expect so much (or something like that). The thing I noticed about the reactions to this case is that, yes, there have been sexist comments about her, there have been racist/prejudiced comments about her both to chip away at her credibility ... from the beginning. Now I don't know if she was raped or not, or if these men (and, please everybody, they're men) did it (I do believe one can be true without the other being false), but the sad thing is that if she filed a false accusation, we don't need her to "set women back" as we call it. Obviously, we haven't come too far considering these types of sterotypes. These are the kind of comments that are always present no matter what the circumstances of the case, no matter the outcome. Of course if this doesn't end in the AV's favor, they will be seen as justified. Aaaall because people want to hide behind the talking point of "stop your political correctness" (that is, unless it can be used to cover for the LAX players, then it is basically, "don't make this about race cause it isn't ... except how these poor, innocent, upstanding boys are being oppressed for being WHITE!" Which is it?). Sorry, if somebody makes a racist comment then somebody will say, "hey, you made a racist comment". If somebody makes a sexist comment, somebody will say, "hey, you made a sexist comment". Don't ask somebody not to play the race/sex card if somebody else already laid out the deck. And that goes for the Duke Men, too. Yes, they said sexist and demeaning things. Yes, they said racist things. Yes, they showed consistent disregard for the people around them even if the crimes weren't of large caliber. It doesn't mean they are rapists, but they will be called on it and deserve to be. Sorry for the verbal explosion, I just haven't been able to say anything since I've been reading this from the beginning. :D

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:51:01 PM EST
    Khartoum, You wrote:
    In his interviews, he described how the attack allegedly occurred (and even demonstrated it himself!)--critical for understanding this case. He assaulted the character of the team members--critical in a case like this, with so little evidence of a crime, since a jury would decide on the basis of credibility.
    That's not a very long list, Khartoum, for 70 interviews. The description of how the assault could have occurred isn't meaningful at all. If anything it helps the defense prepare. As for comments on the "character" of the players, could you furnish a source? I just want to know what quote you're referring to.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 05:55:48 PM EST
    gmax wrote:
    What nobody wants to take me up and come up with the "maybe" ( you were so good with the tox report/daterape drug and the broom ) about where the used condoms ended up?
    With the fake mustache, Howard Hughes' will and Jimmy Hoffa. Just kidding...they ate them. OK...that was a little sick.... fortunately she told the police there were no condoms, so no latex diet, but may explain why Nifong was so confident there would be DNA from a player.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:06:05 PM EST
    Yet Nifong publicly stated that "if a condom were used" there might not be any DNA. This was after the police report noted the AV said no condoms were used. He lied to perpetuate the story.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:09:49 PM EST
    Khartoum
    He assaulted the character of the team members--critical in a case like this, with so little evidence of a crime
    I don't know. At the time he was giving the interviews he had pretty decent evidence of a crime. He had the victim's statement, he had the SANE report finding symptoms consistent with the AV's statement, he had the AV's fingernails and money sitting at the "scene of the crime," and he had a team with a documented record of drunken rowdiness. Seasoned DA's might be able to correct me, but I imagine that's as good a case as a prosecutor ever has a week and a half into an investigation. Now a lot of exculpatory evidence has come to the surface since Nifong gave all those interviews, but at the time I don't think he was totally crazy to think he had a stronger case than he seems to now. He should have stayed out of the spotlight, but I don't think his behavior was that abnormal given the context.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#67)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:18:45 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    IMHO, did someone rile you up and you lost your temper?
    I'm in disbelief!
    You should be, because it didn't happen. Nothing posted here has ever gotten me mad, quite the contrary. I guffaw over this stuff. I'll miss Orinoco. His posts were hilarious. I saved my deleted post if you want it e-mailed to you. This post of Jlvngstn's was so digusting, that my post had to also be deleted because I quoted him:
    Posted by Jlvngstn May 24, 2006 01:45 PM
    deleted
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#68)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:18:47 PM EST
    Durga, good post. I've found the comments here to be very tame, though, compared to some blogs I've visited. (Orinoco and Bean excluded) Kali, I read an article yesterday that quoted a defense lawyer who said that many victims of rape don't know if there were condoms or not. I would assume she would have noticed if Reade S. had one though. I'm not a man so I can't say, but if a rape such as this happened (not specific to this case) wouldn't a guy have trouble completing the act with other guys participating right there? If she was setting them up, I can't figure out how poorly she planned this. She could have easily said yes to the condom question and then the DNA wouldn't be such a big deal.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:18:49 PM EST
    lightenup
    Yet Nifong publicly stated that "if a condom were used" there might not be any DNA. This was after the police report noted the AV said no condoms were used. He lied to perpetuate the story.
    I'm not saying this to be argumentative, I'm genuinely asking - has that police report been released yet? Do we have a quote saying "no condoms?" Or did she say "I don't think they used condoms" or "I don't know." Or did she simply not mention it? If I was a defense attorney, I could spin any of those statements into "the AV never said her attackers wore condoms."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#70)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:25:21 PM EST
    huesofblue, I believe the "no condom" quote is from something the AV told the SANE nurse.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#71)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:26:18 PM EST
    chew2, if you keep calling me a hypocrite, I'm going to ask that you be banned.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:27:13 PM EST
    Hues, My source is what I heard yesterday on TV, that the police report said twice that she said no condoms were used. Watching and reading so much; it was Hannity as my best guess. Not very good, and a defense spin could be argued. So I will open it up for better confirmation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:28:54 PM EST
    Teresa
    I would assume she would have noticed if Reade S. had one though.
    You'd think so. Of course that also strikes me as the area where they were probably least likely to find DNA. Assuming she had a swig or two of water between being falling down drunk/drugged and showing up at the hospital hours later, I can see how this evidence might get washed away. And if R.S. only did what he's being accused of, I don't think there's any way he'd finish, condom or no. There would just be too many teeth and not enough pressure.
    I'm not a man so I can't say, but if a rape such as this happened (not specific to this case) wouldn't a guy have trouble completing the act with other guys participating right there?
    For maost people, probably. But if you're the kind the guy that's into gang rape, who knows?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#74)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:30:17 PM EST
    Ori, I'll miss you. Don't be afraid to drop me a line through my blog.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:32:30 PM EST
    BIP and lightenup Thanks for the info. This case really is a mess. I've got to wonder how Nifong feels about actually having to argue it in court. He can't like his own chances.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#76)
    by weezie on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:38:40 PM EST
    Justice4twosisters blog is saying that ABC news, Chris Cuomo reported that the judge refused the release of the found cell phone info to the defense. Can't find anything else on this, did I read that wrong?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#77)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:40:04 PM EST
    Bob, I hope Orinoco doesn't attack you like he did TalkLeft. Not nice. You okay?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#78)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:41:12 PM EST
    Wow weezie. There must be some important people called from or to that phone. I can't believe that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#79)
    by january on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:45:57 PM EST
    PB said
    If I were a juror and closing arguments had just ended today, of course I would acquit. But its a silly question, since I haven't heard Nifong's case.
    And yet, you made that crack about how unlikely it was that the lax players would be convicted. Despite not having heard Nifong's case. I just wondered whether you were being cynical, or sarcastic, or whether you actually think the defense has a case. Chew 2 said
    What I was really objecting to was Bob's use of the epithet "whore" to vilify the victim. Read my original post:
    I did read your original post, and that isn't what you said. That's why I deliberately used the word prostitute instead of Ho or whore when I asked my question. Did you answer it?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:48:41 PM EST
    weezie I don't think this is a new development. The defense asked the judge to order Nifong to turn over the phone and the judge refused, saying he wanted Nifong to have his experts get whatever data they could off the phone and submit it to the judge for review. I don't think this is the post-review denial. I could be wrong, but the story is dated as of yesterday. I feel like that kind of development would make a bigger splash.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#81)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:50:32 PM EST
    weezie, I read the ABC Nightline story Justice4TwoSisters was citing. The ABC article was poorly written, but I think it meant that attorney Osborn was asking for Nifong to provide the phone info since May 1st, but that Nifong had denied the evidence. The article also raises the problem with Nifong allowing the phone battery to die and then losing all text messaging, etc. With the all the stuff piling up on Nifong, the question is whether this guy isn't going to face charges. This really smells like a malicious prosecution.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:04:09 PM EST
    Sharon, miss you. Watching Idol?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:07:18 PM EST
    The only thing that can be said at this point is IF these charges are false, then she has not only made victims of the LaCrosse players, she has also done irreparable damage to future rape victims. And, IF these charges are false, then Nifong should be tared and feathered and run outa town on a rail.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:14:05 PM EST
    Teresa wrote:
    I'm not a man so I can't say, but if a rape such as this happened (not specific to this case) wouldn't a guy have trouble completing the act with other guys participating right there?
    Personally I can't imagine raping a woman, let alone doing it in front of others, so I have no idea. Knowing that you bring joy and climax to a woman is as gratifying as one's own satisfaction. Speaking of sex...dare I throw out a theory that some have thought but dared not to express...I dare! I dare! Here it goes with some foundation.... She had sex with her BF, 2 drivers and 5+ guys named "John" in 24-48 hours..... Does the saying "like a hotdog thrown down the hallway" mean anything here? In other words, can we really expect anything more than swelling from the alleged rapists. See IMHO, I can make an argument for the AV/FA. Good one, eh?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#85)
    by Teresa on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:16:57 PM EST
    Kali, regarding one of your comments, all men don't feel the same way. You can trust me on that one. :)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#86)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:20:59 PM EST
    A most excellent post, Durga_is_my_homey. I wish you had commented sooner. You are correct about Del's post. While she did say the accuser did not consent to being strangled, what did say is the accuser's story, as described in the search warrant, is not rape. The women consented by showing up, taking off their clothes and shaking their "parts." That has to be the most disturbing comment I have read here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:22:07 PM EST
    January, You wrote:
    And yet, you made that crack about how unlikely it was that the lax players would be convicted. Despite not having heard Nifong's case. I just wondered whether you were being cynical, or sarcastic, or whether you actually think the defense has a case.
    Show me an example of a case where someone "like" this particular complainent won a trial against a trio of individuals "like" this particular trio and I'll believe this case is winnable. I think this is true not because the complaint cannot be true. I think it is the case
    whether or not
    the complaint is true. I think if there was any lesson to the OJ case it was that money transcends race.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:28:52 PM EST
    yeah it is speculation there has been no trial.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#89)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:31:10 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    See IMHO, I can make an argument for the AV/FA. Good one, eh?
    Ha! Yes and such sublime imagery, too. Stop calling her a FA and you might start liking yourself again.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:34:46 PM EST
    PB wrote:
    Trials should be open and public.
    Why? Originally it was as a watchman over government abuse. What do you think the reason usually is now? I think the media more and more is almost indistinguishable from the government. One could argue they won't be falsely convicted because of the publicity, but most likely they had good enough lawyers to cover that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:35:19 PM EST
    Spyderman wrote:
    And, IF these charges are false, then Nifong should be tared and feathered and run outa town on a rail.
    If they're true, can we tar and feather the defense attorneys and run them out of town on a rail? I'm just trying to understand your ethical universe.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#92)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:08:41 PM EST
    Teresa, I'm just fine. I've been hiking a lot. Feel free to contact me through my blog if you feel the need to chitchat. Things are kind of running out of steam here. Some of the sidebars are getting silly. Is it really so bad to put three defendants through a trial? Is it proper to use the word "wh*r*" to describe the AV if she is turning tricks? What could Nifong still have that will win the day? I check in to see if there's something new.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:13:04 PM EST
    Rogan,
    Prosecutors, I believe, are ethically obliged to work in the interests of justice-i.e. not prosecute those they know are not guilty.
    All this chatter about malicious prosecution doesn't amount to much until Nifong actually presents his case. There'll be plenty of time to stink up the air then, if it turns out that all the stuff the defense ISN'T publishing turns out to vindicate the players as well.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:14:05 PM EST
    lightenup: no, not watching Idol. I proudly say that I have never watched a single episode. Tonight it was Stanley Cup and now NBA. Sometimes, though, I have to sit back and simply read the posts here. It's interesting how many of our buttons this case has pushed, on both sides of the aisle. It seems that many, if not most, of us (myself definitely included) are feeling personally invested in the impact and the outcome. As I've said before, sometimes I am conflicted by this case. I don't want the Duke guys (I try not to call them boys, but with a son who will be 19 in a couple months, it is difficult for me to think of a 19 or 20 year old as a "man.") to have committed the crimes with which they are charged, for all sorts of reasons. But at the same time I do not want the accuser to be lying, to be making things up, to be "telling stories." Nor do I want to think that a prosecutor would abuse the power of his office. But it's looking like it's got to be one of the other, and that's going to be a lose-lose situation for everyone. And I believe that if the investigation of this case had been allowed to run its proper course, in its proper time, it would have been better all around. If only Nifong had given that standard, responsible response when first confronted by the media: "This is an ongoing investigation which, in light of the severity of the charges, we are taking with the utmost seriousness, pursuing with the utmost diligence. I cannot comment on the case now, but I will keep you updated on our progress."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:24:57 PM EST
    The women consented by showing up, taking off their clothes and shaking their "parts."
    Okay, I will try to explain, if this is truly the most disturbing thing you've read so far. I did not say they consented. If they dragged her into the bathroom and did what she says they did, it's rape. But I did say the act of stripping is off-center on the consent continuum. I realize that could be seen as, what, sophistry? but I thought it was worth mentioning because: I was responding to someone, hues of blue I think, who said that taking off one's clothes and dancing provocatively was not an invitation to penetration. Sorry, but I think that has pretty much been an invitation to penetration since the dawn of civilization. That's exactly why guys want to look at it. And exactly why women performing such acts for money usually have protection, to make sure nothing happens. But if you seriously believe that a woman is entitled to stop in the midst of sex and decide one more thrust constitutes rape, then further argument is pointless. BTW, I'm the one who thought that the guys hiring a stripper in the first place was reprehensible and they should all be expelled for showing up at the party. It was explained to me that hiring strippers is the going thing these days. Well, that's a shame. I think sex belongs in the bedroom between consenting (there's that word) adults, not as a party game. Women have fought hard for freedom, sexual and otherwise, and abuse of that freedom jeopardizes it, imo.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: More Attacks on Accuser's Credi (none / 0) (#96)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:28:18 PM EST
    Del, sounds reasonable to me.