Perhaps if someone told Nancy Grace that Enron employees were gang-raped out of their inheritance by Skilling, Lay et al?

I kept thinking Nifong was going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. No rabbit. No hat.

Here, I would lean towards an estimate of 9 ozs given the pours I saw in college. It would be even worse if on an empty stomach. Regardless, that is a sh*tload of booze in 5 minutes for anyone!!! As for the drugs she could have taken....valium, xanex, oxycontin, percocet, vicodin. Mix any of these with that much booze and lights out quickly!!

"I asked her questions trying to follow up on a better description of the suspects, she was unable to remember anything further about the suspects [Detective's notes]"

As for the drugs she could have taken....valium, xanex, oxycontin, percocet, vicodin. Mix any of these with that much booze and lights out quickly!!

On that note, I'm asking those of you who are doing this (and you know who you are) to stop taking pot shots at Duke. If it was your school, your friends, your sport, your family, and your achievements, you would be hurt as we Dukies are (but do not discount our loyalty). And it is irrelevant to this case, unless you want to perpetuate stereotypes.

"The state is not aware of any additional material or information which may be exculpatory in nature with respect to the defendant," Nifong wrote in a court filing.

I've been reading this board now for quite a while, but each time I feel the urge to comment, the level of personal animosity has made me hesitate to throw my hat into the fray. That being said, I don't think that those who are more inclined to believe the AV are either more or less likely to resort to shrill pettiness than those more inclined to believe the ARs. I rather feel bad for the few caught in the middle, as they seem genuinely willing to go through the processes of analysis and reasonable skepticism before choosing to believe or disbelieve either side. They seem to be the ones most likely to end up snarked at by both sides. The fate, I suppose of compromisers everywhere.

Do any lawyers have experience with this?

What a shock - as I've said before, I have personal experience with a prosecutor witholding evidence. It was a shock when it happened. My opinion of prosecutors tanked. Do any lawyers have experience with this?

I believe you have enough outrage for all of us. How about outrage for Finnerty's unprovoked assault on a man in Georgetown?

I know he is paraphrased as saying he turned over everything, and 1300 pages would seem to be, but I'm still wondering if he had to turn it all over, or only whatever might be exculpatory.

I hope you stay. You are one of the most reasoned and reasonable and courteous commenters of these threads. I would hate to think you might leave because of snarkiness. Emotions run high over this case and it's difficult to always keep snark out of posts, but you do it with grace every time.

Bloxgom said Finnerty and the other young men "punched him in the face and body" after he told them to "stop calling him gay and other derogatory names," according to the complaint. He added "that when he tried to walk away, the subjects without provocation attacked him, busting his lip and bruising his chin."

My understanding was that it was a late night, Georgetown, inebriated young men talking smack, and the AV ended up with a split lip.

Man, this whole thing is like a bad theme park. We've got the shifting facts ride, the lawyerly spin zone, and the conflicting loyalties battering ram.

noname, Sorry if I'm being dense here...I'm not sure I understand. Nifong said, before discovery, that the defense didn't know his timeline, correct? I would conclude that he thinks that the defense timeline is wrong, and his is right. Therefore, he doesn't agree with what they've been saying is exculpatory: the time stamped photos, the ATM receipt, the alleged restaurant receipt, etc. Right?"

"I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told," Arico said.

It's not clear to me that she was the Duke nurse who examined the AV. She does confirm that a SANE nurse cannot determine whether a rape has occurred. She says that is for the State Bureau of Investigation. I wonder whether such a determination is really required, and if so, was it made.

But even if she wasn't raped, I feel sympathy and empathy for the AV

My question is, if Nifong believes the accused were present for the rape, how can he claim they do not know the correct timeline? If they raped her, then they were there. Of course they would know the timeline. I can see if he wants to claim they have fabricated a timeline, but he doesn't. He says that they do not "know" it. These do not sound to me like the words of a man who thinks the accused are guilty.

I never said she examined the AV. She is an expert familiar with the case. I don't know if she examined her.

A DNA link is not clear cut with the type of test used in this case, DNA experts told ABC News. ABC News spoke with DNA analysts, including Brian Meehan, head of DNA Security, the Burlington, N.C. laboratory that conducted the set of tests used in the case. All of the analysts agreed that the most one could say about Evans was that he could not be ruled out, but also could not be definitively ruled in.

"I asked her questions trying to follow up on a better description of the suspects, she was unable to remember anything further about the suspects," the note from Durham police investigator B.W. Himan says, according to the motion filed by lawyers Bill Cotter and Wade Smith.

"At some point in their interviews and investigations, one or more of these officers asked (the accuser) to describe the men who she claims sexually assaulted her, and (she) provided some answer to that question," the motion says. Her "response to that question is critical to the defense of the case and the state may not withhold that evidence from the defendant."

7. Date and Race of Last Voluntary Coitus when analyzing semen specimens in sex-related crimes, forensic analysts sometimes find genetic markers which are inconsistent with a mixture from only the patient and the offender. A mixture of semen from an offender and the patient's previous male sexual partner could lead to blood grouping results which, if unexplained, could conflict with the patient's own account of the assault.

Patients are asked if they engaged in voluntary sexual intercourse with a male within a week prior to the assault. If so, patients are then asked the date and race of the contact in order to help determine the possible significance of semen remaining from the prior sexual contact.

Legally, the patient's prior sexual activity and/or date of last coitus with a person other than the offender, is information which should be protected from open court by the Texas statute.

This person's identity is not relevant either to the medical examination or for the initial findings of the crime laboratory and should not be sought at time of initial examination. The patient should, however, be instructed to remember the identity of that person and how to reach him should a blood or hair sample be needed later.

The security guard says she smelled alcohol on the driver, but not on the alleged victim.

At the end of the recording, the guard says that police had not returned to talk with her since the night of the incident.

Most people go through life and their relationship to booze and drugs aren't exposed to the public.

I also had not realized that the guard said that Kim and the AV got to the Kroger around 1 am and not later.

Again, this is just one witness' recollection, but one with no apparent axe to grind, a "sister" if you will.

Finnerty brought more beer to the party and then left for dinner w/plans to come back....Maybe she saw him when he re-arrived and she was falling down the steps in a stupor?

The security guard says she smelled alcohol on the driver, but not on the alleged victim.

I don't deny it was said, it was wrong and it was racist.

As such, it would be very significant if Kim threw out the first racial insult, right?

I'm sorry, but both of those women make their living in an illegal profession. Take the arguments, both social and legislative, about prostitution: it IS illegal. And if any of you is naive enough to think that a woman working for an escort service in Durham, NC is not offering sex for money, then I've got some low level, swamp land, flood plain property here in FL for sale. Both women have committed chargeable felony acts. One is, in fact, a convicted felon, one committed felonies but was allowed to plead (rightly to my mind) to lesser offenses. The AV had a 1.9 blood alcohol, driving a stolen cab the wrong way on a highway. Kim stole $25,000 from her employer, even though she said she "didn't need it." These are your witnesses?

I may be in the minority on that, I know, but I wonder how many of the posters on this board have any familiarity with 18 or 19 year old boys/young men/men in the year 2006? Trust me. It is not always a pretty sight.

Imagine how thrilled the player that was photographed "asleep" with a wet spot on his pants feels.

Re: the broom comment. Both Kim and the AV, despite the horror that they both felt, the degradation, the danger, the disgust WENT BACK IN.

Everyone is racist because, as pathetic as it is, it is ultimately means of self-definition against another. Have you seen "Crash"? If not, I suggest you see it.

I love hearing the female commentators discussing artificial nails - the cost, the durability, the pain of removal. As if the AV had paid $40+ at a salon or spa. No, no, no. This I will bet anyone here: the AV bought some press-on nails. Those things come off so easily, cost very little, and come ready to . . . press on.

I saw an interview a few weeks back of a former stripper and a former porn star, who both have set up programs to help women get out of stripping/escort/sex careers. The stripper stated (and the porn star agreed) that 99% of the time women in their formers careers use alcohol or drugs before (for courage), during (to remove inhibitions) and after (to forget) house calls/filming.

Kim's credibility is next to nil, so her perceptions are laughable to me. God love her: that email to the PR firm ruined her as a witness, if the embezzlement didn't.

Being hospitalized for a week would indicate being highly suicidal or having a break with reality.

I'm not sure what's so awful about shoving, but even if it is awful, there's been no confirmation that any of the lacrosse players actually said any such thing, AFAIK.

Anyone wonder if the reason why the AV spilled her own drink was that she was already intoxicated?

Roberts' history makes her a pretty unreliable source of truth.

I'm not challenging your source's information, but if Finnerty is 19 or 20, how does he buy beer? Someone else who's 21 go with him? If so, he's got another witness, right?

I'm just thinking about this because of the specific photos images in question. Finnerty is fairly distinctive looking, but if I recall, he might have had an older brother on the team, so there could have been two similar looking pale Irish kids.

As far as I'm concerned, it "started" with the broom comment.

It's a piece of melodramatic tripe that simplifies racism and basically says, "it's okay to be racist because, hey, everybody else probably is!" without getting to the causes/motives, and responsibility. Not to mention how Asians were practically non-existent. It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior.

I understand that they had to finish a job, anybody who does any type of works knows that deal.

I know two strippers. One of them wouldn't take a single drink of Smirnoff because she was on her way to work.

1. Your quote from my post was NOT an ad hominem attack, it was the kind of thing that is allowed to attack a witness', any witness' credibility.

Illegal activity, past instances of lying, criminal convictions (especially in Kim's case for crimes involving fraud) are legitimate means to impeach a witness. They attack not the person herself, rather they go to her history of truthfulness or the lack thereof.

2. 18-19 year old young men, in my experience, frequently use the phrase "that's, or you're, so gay meaning NOTHING about the sexual orientation of the person addressed. Is it stupid? Sure. Is it, in Finnerty's case especially ironic, sophomoric? Sure. Does it necessarily have ANYTHING to do with actually being a homosexual? NO.

That was my point. If you want to "wink and giggle" go right ahead, get your jollies where you can.

3. That was my point: even "glue on" nails (which are hard to find these days because the press-on ones are so much easier to apply as well as cheaper) can come off, easily, by popping the top of a can.

4. The email: come on Durga - she was looking to profit from another woman's misery.

Doesn't that offend you?

Wouldn't that make a juror think that she might be motivated to tell the kind of story that would "spin" to her advantage rather than a possibly boring but true one?

Oh yeah, it's because she has to feed her daughter.

And I am resisting, mightily, the urge to discuss your use of the term "stand-up" when talking about an escort service worker.

One more point Durga: I have no idea if any of the lacrosse players are precious, or sweet (isn't that a slang word for homosexual? shame on you for gay bashing),

I am, however, unconvinced that they are NOT innocent of the charges against them.

Durga, your snark about racism aside, not all racists rape strippers. Not all sexists or makers of rude remarks rape strippers.

You write: It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior. The "movie" being that everyone harbors racist thoughts. But everyone does. Go read the research.

But what you are doing is alleging that the existence of racism somehow helps the argument that a crime was committed.

Regarding your comment that being "suicidal" is not a mental illness, I'd suggest that you do a check between symptom and disease.

Durga, how many times have you been hospitalized for a week for mental illness? Not just the 72 hours because you may have been a danger to self or others? How many of your homeys? Your family?

No, the premise was that racism is serious problem that transcends the stereotypical only white people can be racist mentality...that you clearly have. It basically was pointing out that everyone needs to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their contribution to the racism problem...including you.

What pisses you off is that it takes away your favorite target...white racism and forces you to see that racism comes in multiple forms.

Case in point, you basically just called me a white racist.

You don't even know me.

Give me a break.....don't impose your integrity and dedication to your job to these two. You insult yourself. Are you saying that someone who has admittedly embezzled $25k from a stable, good paying job for no reason respects the concept of employment?

I used the pannel as an example instead of something annectdotal....but I can play your I Know game too....I know about 6 strippers and am very close friends with 3 ex-strippers and one former call girl. I have represented a few of them and helped a few out with some life problems. Only one was a high priced call girl in NY, none of the others are escorts, which is a big difference, according to the girls I know. At least 5 of the girls I know have been to rehab. So get off your horse.

This case is about prosecutorial misconduct by Mike Nifong and his self-promotion at the expense of the truth. We should not lose sight of that in the morass of other issues that have come to light.

Lacrosse players are innocent of the rape charges but there is truth in what IMHO says that several of them are low class. They throw a tasteless party and let things get out of control by either provoking, or at least escalating, problems with racist and sexually aggressive comments. The most charitable view is that they lack(ed) judgment and moral character.

The lacrosse coach is not a hero. He lost control of a team and recruited individuals who brought shame to the university that they represent. He should have been fired.

Duke will not miss that mom from Georgia who said that she told her son not to go there because of how they handled this situation.

I think the only lacrosse player with any legitimate complaint about the university's treatment is McFadyen and it was frankly for his own good to get him off campus given the safety risk.

I think that the Durham community should support the accuser/victim but should be open to the truth, even if it means that the accuser/victim is lying. Why push for a gag order only when the facts are contrary to her story? Hypocrisy is the weapon of the oppressor.

Am I the only one who believes that the taxi driver is a hero? He's thrust in a difficult situation and does the right thing despite personal pain (Nifong muscling him to lie). The Durham community should rally around him.

Finally, and it bears repeating if only for catharsis, shame on Mike Nifong for sacrificing the truth and civil rights to win the DA election. It's the DA of Durham, for Christ's sake, hardly worth sacrificing our justice system, community, and the hard work of his family as a guardian ad litem. Sad.

Your argument about being poor and oppressed tends to lead to mental illness doesn't conflict with what I'm saying at all.

I'm trying to reconcile dismissing the behavior of a certain group of people and dismissing the criticisms of the behavior of a certain group of people and then turning around and not only using behavior of another group to say she was lying, but suggesting certain behavior in general is responsible for the actions of others.

Bob In Pacifica posted: jstamom, ...if Finnerty is 19 or 20, how does he buy beer? Someone else who's 21 go with him? If so, he's got another witness, right?

inmyhumbleopinion posted: Kali's source has Finnerty sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 a.m. Was it an oyster bar?

SharonInJax posted: Oh, Bob, I didn't know you were that naive: a 19 year old with a fake ID? Shocking.

But assuming that it wasn't so irregular, how likely is she to make a correct ID of the tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player-rapist in a sea of similar looking tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player non-rapists?

The UNC atheletic department is used to focusing on winning championships and maintaining it's image to allow blatantly boorish behavior such as this.

Duke women's lax team wants to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Any civil libertarians have a problem with that? I agree, atl, inviting the men's coach was a bad move, but if these women/girls want to show solidarity with their male counterparts, I defend their right so to do.

I disagree with the decision of the women's lacrosse coach to invite the ex-men's lacrosse coach to speak to the team. I can't justify that on principle.

Are they inviting protesters to hold up "GUILTY" signs?

Kali's source has Finnerty sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 a.m. Was it an oyster bar?

I'm going to guess more than $25,000 was illegally gained by her activities

Kim Roberts' illegal activities = scorn, lack of credibility. High priced call girl's illegal activities = impressive, "more power to her"

If we believe what the defense attorneys are saying, Nifong is guilty of either withholding evidence or rushing to judgment without sufficient evidence. Assuming that is true, I can sleep well at night labeling Nifong an "evil-doer".

Do we know if the guard smelled it on Kim's breath? If we are going to entertain the possiblity the stumbling accuser might have accidentally fallen against Evans and scratched his arm, how about the accuser's spilled drink? Maybe it was spilled onto Kim?

I think a defense lawyer can (and will) completely spin the context in which the sentence she put the word "spin" in was used now that they see she isn't on their "side".

But anyway she could have gotten just as much from, say, sensationalizing something for the defense. Who, funnily enough, didn't seem to care about her prior crime when they claimed her statement was on their side.

imho, remember that one of the pictures shows a player holding a beer upside down over the women while they are in the floor (Abrams show?). The reporter said he/she couldn't tell if it was just an empty bottle, but even a little beer on her outfit would smell like alcohol to the security guard.

If Duke ever wants to be considered to have a serious atheletic department, they need to nip this in the bud.

These young women are showing an incredible insensitivity to victims of sexual misconduct and rape.

imho: please give an example of what Nifong has, now, that he is not required to hand over to the defense.

One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."

One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."

Do you think they would be allowed to wear sweatbands that said "The FA is a lying wh*re?"

One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."

Okay, but I think instructing labs or cops or witnesses to delay reducing their findings or statements is still an example of "witholding" evidence," just a less egregious one than willfully failing to turn over evidence that is in hand.

If the presumption is "innocent until proven guilty", then the "Innocent" armbands/headbands are the correct message to display at this time. After the trial, (if there is one), this could change.

Posted by cpinva May 26, 2006 12:59 PM no teresa, none of them have, but that hasn't stopped your self-pitying whine, now has it? oh woe is me! TL, i'm shocked you fell for this irrelevant nonsense. her posts, for the most part, on this issue, have been nothing short of lame, totally lacking in substance. that no one has lambasted her is a testament to the general level of civility of most of the posters here.

Duke women's lax team wants to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Any civil libertarians have a problem with that? I agree, atl, inviting the men's coach was a bad move, but if these women/girls want to show solidarity with their male counterparts, I defend their right so to do.

It's really no different from the Black Panthers pronouncing the players guilty. People have the "right" to treat trials as if they are sporting events and go "rah, rah, rah" for the home team.

Now I'm back from my nap Kali.

The women's team represents the university. We all know that college kids act boorish from time to time, but we prefer to see this activity laughed at in films with fictional colleges and characters.

We know that four years ago she acted like she was disconnected from reality when she stole the taxicab, led the police on a wild chase and then tried to run over a cop. Most people, even when drunk, don't do any of those things, much less all of them. In order to do that she had to be completely separated from the consequences of her actions, which suggests a dissociative state.

"Mental health" is (among other things) a legal fiction not unlike "innocence."

Just wait, next year some gutsy reporter is going to finally report on Coach K's boorish sideline behavior and draw a connection to similar behavior displayed by Duke's mens and womens lacrosse teams. Part of the image problem goes back to the days where the university used their status as a private school to refuse to accept black students. It's all part of the "We're Duke, we answer to noone mentality." that many of the alumni have their expressed disdain for.

I think telling Reade Seligman that he was "a dead man walking" could easily be construed as making threats, and should have been more seriously dealt with than the "it's my courtroom" speech.

I think resentment comes because the women's lacrosse team has a more public venue in which to espouse their opinions (regardless of what those opinions are) than others who, perhaps, feel otherwise, and must content themselves with blog-posting.

I don't want to hold up the conversation, but could you please explain this? I don't understand what you mean.

According to the NewsObserver, the AV did NOT identify Dave Evans in the line-up.

Moreover, do you think that any college that ever denied admission to any group, be it women, men, blacks or whites is automatically sexist and/or racist?

And that they currently promote a culture of boorishness, ringle[a]d by their various public athletic teams. And even if you argued this point, how does it have any bearing on whether or not a crime was committed by these indicted players against this alleged victim?

Obviously innocent as a one-word statement makes more sense (from a marketing standpoint) than trying to put "we the Duke women's lacrosse team belive Finnerty, Seligmann and Evans to be innocent of the charges of which they have been accused" onto either head or armbands.

Lawyers in serious cases make these kind of threats all the time. They are pretty much unprosecutable because they depend on subjective interpretation for their purchasing power.

Sometimes that which is the most rhetorically crude can be remarkably effective in influencing public opinion.

Coach K. did not rape the AV. The women's lax team did not rape the AV. Most of the mens lax team did not rape the AV. Brodhead did not rape the AV. Most people attending Duke, trying to pass their time and earn a diploma did not rape the AV. The alumni network of Duke did not rape the AV. Sneering at them does not improve any argument for or against those who might have done so.

And if you think you can chase the Dukies away from this thread with this, think again. Notice the solidarity the womens [L]AX team is showing? You ain't seen nothing yet.

Sgt Shelton described the complainant as now "cooperative" when he interviewed her at the hospital. She claimed that she was pulled from a car and "groped" outside the house, but that "no one forced her to have sex."

That's just one of the reasons that when I hear someone being dirtied down by a pseudo-sickiatrist, I just walk on by. Real psychologists know next to nothing about the subject they charge money for.

Sgt Shelton then went outside the hospital to report her recantation by phone to his watch commander, but was approached during that call by someone from inside the hospital who told him that the complainant had told a doctor that she had been raped. When Sgt reentered the hospital to ask her follow-up questions about the recanted recantation, she refused to talk to him further.

She was apparently willing to kill a cop to get away according to the police report.

it's obvious that she is presenting a version of events that did not occur. Bissey did not see her get pulled out of the car and groped, nor did Roberts. We have a sexual assault reported to a police officer which she claims which did not occur.

We know that there is a version of her being gangraped by twenty men, and we have the final version of three men, although it took a couple of times of her shooting fish in a barrel to come up with the final three.

So, is there still anyone here who thinks that the AV is telling the truth?

Forced indoors because of lightning and rain showers that delayed the start of the game for at least an hour, the players filed into the Boston University basketball gym to get ready for their game against Northwestern. Several had wristbands on their arms, legs or sticks that had written in marker, "45, 13, 6" _ the uniform numbers of the three players from the men's team accused of raping a stripper they hired for a team party.

Other wristbands said, "No Excuses. No Regrets."

Once at Duke, I spoke to the female who was now cooperative. She told me that she worked as a stripper ... [no allegation of anything so far] She said that they left and got into ""Nikki's" car. At that time she said that someone from the party wanted them to come back into the house. She said that "Nikki" wanted to go back inside but that she did not. She said that she and "Nikki" got into an argument about going back inside. She said that at that point some of the guys pulled her from the car and "groped" her. She told me that no one had forced her to have sex. She then mentioned that someone had taken her money. ... [Shelton returns to question the AV] She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her in the bathroom.

So with Sgt. Shelton, how many versions are we up to?

DURHAM -- A lawyer with the state NAACP said the civil rights organization intends to seek a gag order in the Duke lacrosse case, and a journalist who participated in a forum with him on Wednesday said media coverage of the alleged rape may deprive the alleged victim of her legal rights to a fair trial.