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Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Description of Attackers

In 1,278 pages of discovery, there is only one reference to how the accuser in the Duke Lacrosse player's alleged rape case described her attackers to police. Yet DA Nifong says he has turned over his complete file. How can that be? The defense isn't buying it and Reade Seligman's attorney filed a motion today requesting the DA turn over her descriptions.

"At some point in their interviews and investigations, one or more of these officers asked (the accuser) to describe the men who she claims sexually assaulted her, and (she) provided some answer to that question," the motion filed by lawyers Bill Cotter and Wade Smith said.

Her "response to that question is critical to the defense of the case and the state may not withhold that evidence from the defendant."

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    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:31:18 PM EST
    On the intoxication line of thinking here tonight..... Could the police have waited 31 hours for the AV/FA to sober up so that when she signed her statement if was with sound mind?? 7Duke4....do you know who won today in women's lax? i have not been able to find the score. I was in Boston and was very tempted to purposely miss my flight to catch the game. Lora....interesting. The AV/FA's racial comment reasoning seems to be at odds with what Kim has said. Kim did not say it was for racial reasons. Everything I have heard and read has said they left because of broomstick (lacrosse stick) comment and they became rowdy. I admit this is news to me. Thinkandtype wrote:
    Perhaps if someone told Nancy Grace that Enron employees were gang-raped out of their inheritance by Skilling, Lay et al?
    Funny!! Your wit will be appreciate by your fellow classmates and professors. Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    I kept thinking Nifong was going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. No rabbit. No hat.
    It went down the Bunny Hole!!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:31:35 PM EST
    What a shock - as I've said before, I have personal experience with a prosecutor witholding evidence. It was a shock when it happened. My opinion of prosecutors tanked. Do any lawyers have experience with this?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:32:12 PM EST
    Kali
    Here, I would lean towards an estimate of 9 ozs given the pours I saw in college. It would be even worse if on an empty stomach. Regardless, that is a sh*tload of booze in 5 minutes for anyone!!! As for the drugs she could have taken....valium, xanex, oxycontin, percocet, vicodin. Mix any of these with that much booze and lights out quickly!!
    I conceded this one above . . . I forgot all about valium, xanex, oxycontin, ect. What you're saying is totally plausible too me. I'll also concede that college pours are ridiculously strong. Everclear isn't nearly as popular in the real world (thank god). And on top of that, the account of her pounding 1 and 1/2 strong-ass drinks in 5 minutes is consistent with heavy drinkers I know. I only meniton it because relatives have suggested she wasn't a drinker and certainly wouldn't be drunk like that on her own.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#4)
    by james on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:36:23 PM EST
    Perhaps this is the reason why there are no further references in the case file (per the wral article) :
    "I asked her questions trying to follow up on a better description of the suspects, she was unable to remember anything further about the suspects [Detective's notes]"
    Hey, maybe Nifong can play the 'She doesn't know' defense when he argues this in front a judge. Hehe. Seriously, that is from a detective's notes - but what is *odd* is that there is nothing referenced to the 'anything further about the suspects', ie, if the detective implies that she said something there has to be something.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:41:10 PM EST
    Re: The drunk issue: I think (bless it and curse it) that alcohol is one of those tricky substances that affects its users in such different ways that it'd be hard to pin the blame for her state on either drinks consumed at the soiree in question, or beforehand. The father, in an early interview with the aforementioned Ms. Nancy Grace, asserted that she wasn't drunk when he saw her earlier in the evening. I might be mis-remembering, but I do recall that he did indicate that she might have been drinking. One beer with pops might not a stumbling drunk make, but if it were the first in a longer evening of drinking, it isn't impossible that she could have been, for lack of a better term, functionally tipsy for most of the evening. At the point she downed the 1.5 units of whatever mixed drink concoction was provided, it could have been the proverbial straw with camel-back-breaking tendencies. I'm sure we could all swap drunken-escapade stories for hours, but suffice it to say that I don't think it unreasonable for alcohol intoxication to cause someone to be very functional for a good long while, and then, when some internal biological or psychosomatic tipping point is reached, be completely incoherent/blacked out/stumbling drunk, even if that was not in line with the usual pattern of a given person's drinking habits.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#6)
    by james on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:46:08 PM EST
    As for the drugs she could have taken....valium, xanex, oxycontin, percocet, vicodin. Mix any of these with that much booze and lights out quickly!!
    Alprazolam (Xanax) is a widely prescribed medication - she'd pick it over valium. Af for the pain pills I'd pick vicodins over oxys or percocets - the other two do not give a good 'feeling'. You'll end up depressed if you take them and drink. Not fun. Valium is more of a lethargic medication than Xanax (you don't feel Xanax). I take Xanax along with Lithobid (Lithium) and I can assure you that it pays for itself when I'm drinking - I'd say it's about twice as strong. If you take enough Xanax it will continue to increase the effects until you blackout. Personally I think she's an alcoholic - grabbing another stripper's drink you don't even know and slamming it is not a sign that you're in great control. Sure she might have taken something and that something may even have been prescribed to her. But since she was so messed up I find it very odd that there's no tox report. Refused it? I'm really more concerned, however, about the toxicology report (absence of it). I'd like to know if she refused one.

    7duke4 posted:
    On that note, I'm asking those of you who are doing this (and you know who you are) to stop taking pot shots at Duke. If it was your school, your friends, your sport, your family, and your achievements, you would be hurt as we Dukies are (but do not discount our loyalty). And it is irrelevant to this case, unless you want to perpetuate stereotypes.
    I've criticized the players' behavior that night and their decision to follow questionable legal advice. I also thought the "player in the shadows" failed to take responsibility for the reprecussions from the party, and instead blamed the administration. I sure thought the people posting on that website claiming they were Dukies were creepy. [not being snarky here, genuinely asking:]Does any of that qualify as taking pot shots at Duke? Is there anything in particular I said about Duke that bothered any Duke grads?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#8)
    by james on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:47:21 PM EST
    Xanex/Xanax the spelling isn't an issue - it's been generic forever. Alprazolam 2mg tid is all I need to know:)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#9)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:47:39 PM EST
    Kali, Re: the stopping of the dance: I think the racial comments came first, and the broom comment was the corker. NIfong wrote:
    "The state is not aware of any additional material or information which may be exculpatory in nature with respect to the defendant," Nifong wrote in a court filing.
    I know he is paraphrased as saying he turned over everything, and 1300 pages would seem to be, but I'm still wondering if he had to turn it all over, or only whatever might be exculpatory.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#10)
    by Teresa on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:50:21 PM EST
    thinkandtype, your first post:
    I've been reading this board now for quite a while, but each time I feel the urge to comment, the level of personal animosity has made me hesitate to throw my hat into the fray. That being said, I don't think that those who are more inclined to believe the AV are either more or less likely to resort to shrill pettiness than those more inclined to believe the ARs. I rather feel bad for the few caught in the middle, as they seem genuinely willing to go through the processes of analysis and reasonable skepticism before choosing to believe or disbelieve either side. They seem to be the ones most likely to end up snarked at by both sides. The fate, I suppose of compromisers everywhere.
    saved me from a good-bye cruel world (or at least these Duke threads) though I may still not be able to come here anymore. It is hard for me to express my feelings about this case without projecting my feelings for others who have found themselves in this position. She may just be a flat out liar. She and the DA have given so much ammunition to attack her on the facts that the attacks on her that have nothing to do with the known facts are more than I care to read anymore. This isn't the first place I've read that maybe we should have the IRS investigate to see if she paid taxes on her illegally obtained wages. My classism will show here but that is going too far. As a Director of Accounting for a long time of a pretty good sized public company, I can promise you that any tax cheating from Kim and the accuser is a drop in the bucket to the tax evasion that goes on with the CEO and others at the company I worked for. Sure, many of the tax breaks he and others get are legal corporate welfare but not all of it. We paid this man's housekeeper, groundskeepers and pool boys through our company payroll. That is just a very small example of the tax evasion that only the rich can participate in so I'm not too worried about the small amount of taxes the accuser may not have paid. Other posters are sure that she's a drug addict even though she completed her probation with no incidents which would have included drug testing. That doesn't mean she isn't using now but don't we have enough ammunition to use against her without speculating on some we have no proof of. One of our banned posters continually referred to her as trash. My definition of trash is the CEO's son and nephew at our company sending pornographic sites to other men in our company and then having our bosses call us into their offices to see something on their computer and it turns out to be a male porn star in action. I personally listened to the nephew brag about screwing around on his wife and coming into the office of the young pretty girl who worked for me and sticking his hand down the rear of her pants to pull on her thong strap and pop the elastic on it. He did this in front of me many times and also pulled down her shirt to look at her breasts. All in just a boys will be boys manner. So I'm not inclined to always give the young guys with money and education the benefit of the doubt. This doesn't mean they are rapists but it wouldn't surprise me that under the right circumstance they would participate. Their actions speak for themselves. So we all come from this from a certain point of view and I don't just assume that every poor black prostitute is a liar or asking for it until it is proven to me by evidence. From reading comments at other blogs, if this woman was an otherwise upstanding citizen like Kali's law student friend most people still wouldn't cut her any slack at all. Even if she was telling the truth. The attacks on her started before the DNA evidence came back and have only gotten worse. Yes, poor prostitutes can be raped and rich white boys can be rapists. It probably isn't true in this case but I can no longer separate her from the real victims who put up with the same attacks. Accusing someone of rape does give one a lot of power. I don't know how to take that right for real victims away while preventing the false ones. Having her either prosecuted for lying or hospitalized for some mental problem that caused her do to this would help I guess. But first I want to know for sure that she is a false accuser.

    7Duke4 wrote:
    Do any lawyers have experience with this?
    I think it is reflective of the attorney's personna and moral compass. It definitely happens in reverse on the civil side fairly frequently....defendants hide material, but the rules are different and more susceptible to abuse. Example: a few months ago, I was told I had received everything that possibly could have been produced for the last 8 years. Just this week, I received almost a million more pages....most of which we have determined as never been produced before....practically doubling all the prior productions. Because the stakes are so high in a criminal case (one's liberty), the rules are straightforward and clear, without any room for misinterpretation. So if it does happen, it is basically per se unethical.

    What a shock - as I've said before, I have personal experience with a prosecutor witholding evidence. It was a shock when it happened. My opinion of prosecutors tanked. Do any lawyers have experience with this?
    I'd be interested in this too. All the prosecutors I know are pretty ethical, but most I know haven't been at it long. This might be a bit of a tanget, but I work in corporate law (transactional law, not litigation) and we send out requests for due diligence documents pretty regularly. Getting everything you need to see on a first request never happens. There are always supplemental requests. The context isn't exactly like a prosecutor's duty to turn over exculpatory evidence, but there are similarities. Also, if not toxicology reports or police interviews with the victim, what was in those 1300 pages?

    With apologies to non-sports fans, replying to Kali: The Duke women's golf team came back today to lead the NCAA championship by holding a 13-shot advantage going into the final round. The women's lacrosse team will play Northwestern tomorrow at 6 PM in the Final Four, theoretically wearing their "innocent" armbands (if not banned). Friday the 26th will be a huge day for DU women's athletics. For future news, see goduke.com. This ends my commercial announcement.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#15)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:57:27 PM EST
    Teresa, I hope you stay. You are one of the most reasoned and reasonable and courteous commenters of these threads. I would hate to think you might leave because of snarkiness. Emotions run high over this case and it's difficult to always keep snark out of posts, but you do it with grace every time.

    7Duke4...thanks.

    Lora: Missed it earlier, but here's your answer.
    I believe you have enough outrage for all of us. How about outrage for Finnerty's unprovoked assault on a man in Georgetown?
    Want to give me your reasons or justification for using the word "unprovoked"? Have you read the police report? Do you know any of the details of the alleged attack? Please, enlighten me. My understanding was that it was a late night, Georgetown, inebriated young men talking smack, and the AV ended up with a split lip. Please, if you know more, tell me. And please don't try to characterize it as gay bashing. If it had been that, it would have been charged. For a 18 or 19 year old male to call another male a "queer," or "fag," or any other deragatory term for homosexual may not be what we alleged grown-ups would like, but to pretend it doesn't happen is to be willfully ignorant.

    Lora
    I know he is paraphrased as saying he turned over everything, and 1300 pages would seem to be, but I'm still wondering if he had to turn it all over, or only whatever might be exculpatory.
    I think prosecutors usually turn over everything. You'd rather make the defense go through all the evidence themselves rather than isolating the specific evidence that you think hurts your case. Full disclosure also lets you avoid the possible pitfalls of inadvertantly not disclosing something exculpatory.

    Theresa Glad you decided to stick around! I must say that you've been, to my reckoning, the poster child for the reasonable middle-ground. It's a bit daunting that asking questions of or agreeing/disagreeing with a particular "side" in this issue has resulted in the kind of snark that would make you consider abandoning the discourse. Personally, I feel it interesting the kinds of loyalties one is "supposed" to feel in this case. As though the experiences/affiliations/etc., of any given poster should automatically demand they hold a particular viewpoint in this particular case. I'm confused; I've worked with domestic violence victims, should I automatically side with the AV? My brother played lacrosse, should I wholeheartedly support the ARs? I'm going to Duke, should my loyalties be to that famed "blue wall?" As an avowed academic, should I be elitist or anti-elitist? Man, this whole thing is like a bad theme park. We've got the shifting facts ride, the lawyerly spin zone, and the conflicting loyalties battering ram.

    Lora: And when you scratched yourself, did you come up with "tissue" under your nails? Imagine, if you were "fighting for your life," might you have scratched harder, not worrying about the pain you were inflicting? Also, the "under" the nail has yet to be proven. I've heard reports that the "tissue" was on the nail, as might occur if a nail and some human body tissue were in the same bathroom waste basket. Not enough DNA on that nail, on that ONE nail, to give a compete panel? Okay. Sure.

    Lora posted:
    I hope you stay. You are one of the most reasoned and reasonable and courteous commenters of these threads. I would hate to think you might leave because of snarkiness. Emotions run high over this case and it's difficult to always keep snark out of posts, but you do it with grace every time.
    Mother Teresa could not have shown more patience than our own Teresa has had with everyone here. She feels no fear even when embracing the lepers.

    Re: the tissue found? Was it tissue as in human flesh? Or tissue as in non-generic Kleenex? I imagine the ramifications are a bit different if the DNA came from a facial tissue into which Mr. Evans had deposited phlegm/saliva/earwax/other bodily fluids that had somehow become stuck to the adhesive on the nail, rather than from facial tissue from his, er, face. . .

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#23)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:15:28 PM EST
    Sharon, I specifically avoided calling it "gay-bashing." I wan't pretending anything. However some are calling it such: Suspect in Duke Rape Case May Lose Gay-Bashing Plea Bargain
    Bloxgom said Finnerty and the other young men "punched him in the face and body" after he told them to "stop calling him gay and other derogatory names," according to the complaint. He added "that when he tried to walk away, the subjects without provocation attacked him, busting his lip and bruising his chin."


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#24)
    by Teresa on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:15:28 PM EST
    I love snark. Why else would I love imho so much? :) It's the meanness that's getting me not the snark. Thanks Lora, think and imho. Maybe I just need a break.

    SharoninJax wrote:
    My understanding was that it was a late night, Georgetown, inebriated young men talking smack, and the AV ended up with a split lip.
    For what its worth, I heard this from someone in the DC know.... CF was sitting at the bar with his friends when the DCAV came up, asked him if he was gay and made a pass at him. They exchanged a few choice words and began scuffling, the bouncers told them to take it outside and made them all leave. The heated exchanges continued out front on the street and then the punch was thrown. However, the way it is portrayed by the MSM makes it sound like CF was walking down the street and randomly gay-bashed and punched the guy.

    I worked in a criminal defense firm for about 6 months, and that was a long time ago. But I don't think this has changed: even ethical, canon-bound prosecutors want to get a conviction. And, yes, they will play games. The one that was, in my experience back then, most used was to wait until the last possible moment to commit certain things to paper. The reason is obvious: you turn over ALL of your paper to the defense. But you have no obligation to turn over what has yet to be put down on paper. For example, prosecutors can tell the police to do interviews but not record them. They can tell labs to run tests but hold off on sending the written results, just give an oral report. I have no idea how common any of the above is. I am simply giving examples of how a DA can "work" the discovery process. Until it's on paper, no duty to disclose.

    Man, this whole thing is like a bad theme park. We've got the shifting facts ride, the lawyerly spin zone, and the conflicting loyalties battering ram.
    It's kind of what makes it fun though. At various times I think I've defended and criticized every party involved. It makes me want to pay off my loans and become a prosecutor.

    Lora said:
    noname, Sorry if I'm being dense here...I'm not sure I understand. Nifong said, before discovery, that the defense didn't know his timeline, correct? I would conclude that he thinks that the defense timeline is wrong, and his is right. Therefore, he doesn't agree with what they've been saying is exculpatory: the time stamped photos, the ATM receipt, the alleged restaurant receipt, etc. Right?"
    You are not being dense, I just have not explained my point well. It is really only a word choice peculiarity on the part of Nifong. When the defense went public with their alibi, Nifong replied that it did not affect the prosecution because the defense did not know his timeline. My question is, if Nifong believes the accused were present for the rape, how can he claim they do not know the correct timeline? If they raped her, then they were there. Of course they would know the timeline. I can see if he wants to claim they have fabricated a timeline, but he doesn't. He says that they do not "know" it. These do not sound to me like the words of a man who thinks the accused are guilty.

    I thought I got rid of the "meanies." Who'd I miss? Theresa, you need to stay.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#30)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:21:56 PM EST
    Sharon, A thread or two back I found an article that reported that tissue, consistent with the bodily make-up was found under the nail, not on it. It could have been wrong. And...my little highly unscientific test produced a miniscule amount of something...sweat, oil, and dead skin I guess. And..yeah I was too chicken to scratch as hard as I could, but there is a little redness and tenderness there. But if she scratched with press-on nails, I'm thinking they might have popped off before she drew blood.

    Lora: thanks for the quote, but once again we are given the accuser's version and asked to take it as truth. How many people who file assault charges admit they provoked the attack? Not saying it isn't as the accuser said, just that none of us know, at this point, whether Finnerty was or was not provoked. Your repeating of the complainant's characterization of what happened is an echo from one side.

    Hadn't heard that, Kali. Sounds plausible to me. I may be in the minority on that, I know, but I wonder how many of the posters on this board have any familiarity with 18 or 19 year old boys/young men/men in the year 2006? Trust me. It is not always a pretty sight.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#33)
    by Teresa on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:31:30 PM EST
    Thank you TL. None of the posters have been mean to me at all. My compassion for underdogs is just getting the better of me right now. If the Duke guys were being bashed as badly I'd feel for them just the same. I already do for the three who I can put a face to. They are real to me now and it hurts me for them also.

    Lora: Like you, I am not sure what I read where. Some reports say under, some say on, some say under but not adhered, and on and on and on. I'm sure at some point we will know, but until then we are all going to be spinning our wheels, wondering if we are being played for fools by one side or the other. I'll add my voice, Theresa: hope you'll stay. But sometimes I have to take a time-out, not just from this site, but from this case. Being a Duke grad, being the mother of a son who could be one of those boys at that party, my sympathies are strong for that side. But even if she wasn't raped, I feel sympathy and empathy for the AV. And if she WAS raped at that party, then I want every single one of the attendees to be charged with something. This case is just a mess for everyone involved.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#35)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:35:33 PM EST
    Noname, I get it now -- thanks. Heh, yeah, if they did it, they knew his timeline if he was right. I don't think he thought about it that way, but you're suggesting it could have been a slip of the tongue, indicating he is trying to nail innocent men? I think he just meant, You don't know what I've figured out. Maybe however the players haven't told the truth to their lawyers, in which case Nifong could be right.

    Lora - Obviously his comment proves nothing. I just thought it was an amusing slip of the tongue to point out on a slow news day.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#37)
    by Alan on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:44:25 PM EST
    Lora posted:
    "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told," Arico said.
    You've posted the Arico paragraph before and been corrected on it by chew 2:
    It's not clear to me that she was the Duke nurse who examined the AV. She does confirm that a SANE nurse cannot determine whether a rape has occurred. She says that is for the State Bureau of Investigation. I wonder whether such a determination is really required, and if so, was it made.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#38)
    by Teresa on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:47:01 PM EST
    But even if she wasn't raped, I feel sympathy and empathy for the AV
    Me too, Sharon. She has serious problems either way this turns out. I'm substituting my much loved brother since I have no sons and it does help to see both sides.

    I have been reading the posts on this site for weeks and have been very impressed with the depth and insights applied by most posters. There is one scenario that I have not yet seen broached, however. Please bear in mind that this is 100% conjecture based on a different interpretation of the facts, theories and ideas put forth by other posters and the media. Both of the dancers are at the party waiting to perform. Both are given drinks. The AV finishes hers, but Kim did not, instead, as she stated in a televised interview, she drank part of it and gave the rest to the AV. Perhaps Kim put something in the drink while it was in her posession, thinking that when the AV became incapacitated she could easily steal any money the AV had. I don't think this is that far of a stretch, as Kim has a history of embezzelment, and if she would steal from her employer, she would probably steal from a complete stranger. The dancing begins, the drug takes effect, causing the AV's performance to be clumsy and unattractive. Tempers flare and words are exchanged. The dancers exit the house, but are coaxed back in to finish their performance. The dancers return, go into the bathroom, where as the AV, under the influence of the drug, is fumbling with her fake fingernails, dropping some of them in the process. Kim takes this opportunity to take the AV's money, then leaves the house in a huff, exchanging more words with the players as a reason to leave. The AV stumblingly follows after a few minutes, falling down the steps in the process. Kim then calls the police to report the racial slurs as a little retaliation. This is all conjecture, but would help explain why Kim was attempting to remove an obviously incapacitated woman from her car at the Kroger's instead of trying to get help for her. Perhaps Kim planted the idea of the players slipping her a date rape drug, or perhaps when the AV started to come around and realized her money was gone, she decided on a little pay back. Who knows? All I can say is that this would explain a great deal (the lack of DNA, rapid incapacitation, discrepancies in the different versions of her stories). Just thought that I'd throw out a new possibility.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#40)
    by Lora on Thu May 25, 2006 at 10:58:38 PM EST
    Alan, Arico is in charge of the SANE program at Duke hospital, where the AV was brought. That isn't a correction. I never said she examined the AV. She is an expert familiar with the case. I don't know if she examined her. But I am very reasonably sure she familiarized herself with the case before she consented to an interview and stated (reasonably) that the AV's story matched her injuries.

    Yes, Teresa, please stay. I've come close to dropping out too. But it's people like you who make it worthwhile to stay with the thread to continue the thoughtful effort to seek after the truth of what has happened in this case, where this case seems to be going, and what it all seems to mean? Please stay. It just would not be the same without your caring heart and gentle spirit.

    noname:
    My question is, if Nifong believes the accused were present for the rape, how can he claim they do not know the correct timeline? If they raped her, then they were there. Of course they would know the timeline. I can see if he wants to claim they have fabricated a timeline, but he doesn't. He says that they do not "know" it. These do not sound to me like the words of a man who thinks the accused are guilty.
    I think this argument is a bit of a stretch. When Nifong refers to "the defense", he could simply mean the defense attorneys, who he knows were not "present for the rape". Yes, in that case his implication would be that the players fabricated a timeline in the descriptions they provided to the attorneys. But I don't agree that we can assume that he would have been obliged to spell out that implication, so I don't accept that you can draw any conclusion from the fact that he didn't do so. Actually I think there have been times when he has said things to the press on the spur of the moment, just to make the point that he knew more than they did, and this may be one such remark. I don't think you can safely subject it to the kind of careful parsing that might be appropriate for sworn testimony, or even serious journalism.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#43)
    by Alan on Thu May 25, 2006 at 11:50:31 PM EST
    Lora posted:
    I never said she examined the AV. She is an expert familiar with the case. I don't know if she examined her.
    That's not an unreasonable position, it's just that if we don't know if Arico examined the AV then we can't take her statement as more than what happened according to the AV's own account. Equally we have to remember that a SANE exam is not, in and of itself, conclusive that a rape occurred. It is as weak an argument as saying that Nifong is a competent prosecutor and would not bring this charge without more than is shown in the discovery. I'm concerned that this is one of the Six Nuggets huesofblue advanced and it seems to me that it's ambiguous at best.

    Lora, what is your source for claiming that the DNA was a 90% match? From ABC:
    A DNA link is not clear cut with the type of test used in this case, DNA experts told ABC News. ABC News spoke with DNA analysts, including Brian Meehan, head of DNA Security, the Burlington, N.C. laboratory that conducted the set of tests used in the case. All of the analysts agreed that the most one could say about Evans was that he could not be ruled out, but also could not be definitively ruled in.


    Thanks, noni mouse. I meant to ask that last night. Lora, Could you be confusing the 90% certainty of the accuser's photo ID of Evans with the certainty of the DNA "match"?

    Duke lawyers want more evidence
    "I asked her questions trying to follow up on a better description of the suspects, she was unable to remember anything further about the suspects," the note from Durham police investigator B.W. Himan says, according to the motion filed by lawyers Bill Cotter and Wade Smith.
    "At some point in their interviews and investigations, one or more of these officers asked (the accuser) to describe the men who she claims sexually assaulted her, and (she) provided some answer to that question," the motion says. Her "response to that question is critical to the defense of the case and the state may not withhold that evidence from the defendant."
    Do they know it was a police officer that asked the questions that are being "followed up?" Could this be a follow up of what the accuser told the S.A.N.E. nurse? Didn't the defense say portions of the S.A.N.E. exam are missing?

    From the Texas' S.A.N.E. protocol:
    7. Date and Race of Last Voluntary Coitus when analyzing semen specimens in sex-related crimes, forensic analysts sometimes find genetic markers which are inconsistent with a mixture from only the patient and the offender. A mixture of semen from an offender and the patient's previous male sexual partner could lead to blood grouping results which, if unexplained, could conflict with the patient's own account of the assault.
    Patients are asked if they engaged in voluntary sexual intercourse with a male within a week prior to the assault. If so, patients are then asked the date and race of the contact in order to help determine the possible significance of semen remaining from the prior sexual contact.
    Legally, the patient's prior sexual activity and/or date of last coitus with a person other than the offender, is information which should be protected from open court by the Texas statute.
    This person's identity is not relevant either to the medical examination or for the initial findings of the crime laboratory and should not be sought at time of initial examination. The patient should, however, be instructed to remember the identity of that person and how to reach him should a blood or hair sample be needed later.
    Could this be the reason the accuser's "boyfriend" did not give a DNA sample until May 3, after the players' DNA did not turn up a match?[Alternative to accuser lying to nurse, police, Nifong]

    Posted by mt1ret May 25, 2006 11:48 PM .... Perhaps Kim put something in the [AV's] drink... ------------ It's a theory, but I find it hard to believe Kim would arrive at the scene with the necessary drugs.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#49)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:31:19 AM EST
    Knocking down Roberts' drink is a curious little glimpse into the AV's relationship with intoxicants. Most people go through life and their relationship to booze and drugs aren't exposed to the public. If the AV refused to take the tox, we are pretty much left with speculation, but there is no case for the attendees drugging her drink.

    The security guard says she smelled alcohol on the driver, but not on the alleged victim.
    At the end of the recording, the guard says that police had not returned to talk with her since the night of the incident.
    I hadn't read the Good Morning America online article focusing on the security guard's recollections of that night/morning, taped on April 3. If the guard is believable, what about her smelling alcohol on Kim's breath? Thought she didn't drink at the party and gave her drink to the AV. Wonder what the alcohol of choice was that evening, ie, vodka with relatively little aroma or, say, bourbon or gin. And what other interviews would have taken precedence in the Durham PD's eyes that almost three weeks had passed and they still had not spoken to a witness who saw the AV an hour, more or less, after the alleged attack? I also had not realized that the guard said that Kim and the AV got to the Kroger around 1 am and not later. Again, this is just one witness' recollection, but one with no apparent axe to grind, a "sister" if you will.

    Bob in Pacifica:
    Most people go through life and their relationship to booze and drugs aren't exposed to the public.
    Imagine how thrilled the player that was photographed "asleep" with a wet spot on his pants feels. I wonder what time it is that Finnerty, supposedly, "brought more beer?" Did the keg run dry?

    imho: I hadn't heard your quote about Finnerty bringing more beer. Source?

    SharonInJax posted:
    I also had not realized that the guard said that Kim and the AV got to the Kroger around 1 am and not later.
    Again, this is just one witness' recollection, but one with no apparent axe to grind, a "sister" if you will.
    The second 911 call was made at 1:22 a.m. Perhaps, the security guard and Kim tried to deal the situation before the call was made. I don't see what a 22 minute descrepancy in what the security guard remembers three weeks later matters. If she is acting as a "sister" why would she cast doubt on Kim's ability to be a reliable witness by saying she smelled alcohol on her?

    You missed my point, imho: the 1 am arrival HELPS the AV and Kim because it removes the "what took them so long to travel 5 miles and what were they doing during the missing time?" arguments. And what reason would the guard have to lie about smelling alcohol on Kim's breath? This is not a rich white man or his attorney making that observation. THAT was the point of the "sister" remark. Why would a black woman lie to hurt other black women?

    Posted by jstamom May 25, 2006 07:46 AM
    Finnerty brought more beer to the party and then left for dinner w/plans to come back....Maybe she saw him when he re-arrived and she was falling down the steps in a stupor?


    thanks imho

    I was told by my source that Finnerty was told to bring beer, or bring more beer. He and Seligman are sophmores and not starters on the team, so while they hang out with the team, they still have other people that they spend most of their time with. But, they're Sophs, so if the captains call for more beer, by G*D you bring it. After Finnerty dropped off the beer he then went out to eat, planning on returning to the party later in the evening. I believe my source and figure that the AV could have spotted him when they arrived to drop off the beer, or perhaps he was returning as she was being convinced to come back into the house, or as she was leaving. I have also heard the Finnerty knew the DCV from high school and that they were not friends but aquaintences... My biggest problem with this case STILL is, if something happened, do they have the right guys. I feel sorry for the AV and the mess she and Nifong created, but I feel sorry for these YOUNG men, also and I'm not sure in a rush to judge that they did anyone justice.

    SharoninJax quote an article saying:
    The security guard says she smelled alcohol on the driver, but not on the alleged victim.
    The only this this establishes is that Kim was drinking too, like you said. It does not, however, establish that the AV/FA was not drinking. Not everyone smells of alcohol from a casual inhalation. The security guard had a conversation with Kim, her breath flowed toward the guard. The AV/FA was in the car passed out, did the guard get in the car and smell her breathing? I doubt it. Even then the odor of alcohol would not be as pungent as it would if she were talking. The guard would have had to purposely put nose to mouth and smell for booze. Further, the cops said she was "passed out drunk". The presumption must be that they deal with this situation everyday therefore know what they are talking about. The presumption is that they determined she had been drinking, that they took the appropriate steps to make this determination and that they indeed accurately reported their findings....that she was passed out drunk. I find it really ironic here that many of the facts speak for themselves, however, in speculation in order to support the AV/FA the presumption is that everyone is lying or wrong, but the AV/FA.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#59)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 07:20:23 AM EST
    I don't recall Roberts asserting that she drank nothing that night, but Roberts' history makes her a pretty unreliable source of truth. She very well may have had a drink at the party, or before. Do we have any attendee version of what the strippers drank at the party? We have Roberts saying she didn't drink hers, but that the AV spilled half of her own drink and choogled Roberts. Maybe that wasn't the only drinking the strippers did at the party. Bissey's observations of the strippers and their comings and goings are interesting but not reliable as to how intoxicated any of the people at that party were. You can be drunk and you can be falling down drunk. Looking over the backyard fence you may be able to determine the latter but not necessarily the former. The security guard at Kroger's didn't smell booze on the AV, but we know that the AV had had at least a drink and a half. Anyone wonder if the reason why the AV spilled her own drink was that she was already intoxicated?

    True Bob. I've wondered all along what Kim was doing while the alleged rape was taking place. Somehow I don't think she was passing time debating whether Jim Brown was a better football or a better lacrosse player when he was at Syracuse.

    From the last thread (sorry, I had to take care of some things)-
    I don't deny it was said, it was wrong and it was racist.
    Alright, thanks.
    As such, it would be very significant if Kim threw out the first racial insult, right?
    As far as I'm concerned, it "started" with the broom comment. I understand that they had to finish a job, anybody who does any type of works knows that deal. But anyway my point was the constant under-rug-sweeping of the men's behavior and the constant talking-point countering with how these were yucky strippers. Like this-
    I'm sorry, but both of those women make their living in an illegal profession. Take the arguments, both social and legislative, about prostitution: it IS illegal. And if any of you is naive enough to think that a woman working for an escort service in Durham, NC is not offering sex for money, then I've got some low level, swamp land, flood plain property here in FL for sale. Both women have committed chargeable felony acts. One is, in fact, a convicted felon, one committed felonies but was allowed to plead (rightly to my mind) to lesser offenses. The AV had a 1.9 blood alcohol, driving a stolen cab the wrong way on a highway. Kim stole $25,000 from her employer, even though she said she "didn't need it." These are your witnesses?
    The ad hominem is for court, I'd rather like to analyze what was said on it's own merits. But anyway, I guess some grown man getting into a fight with the word "gay" in there doesn't mean much. Let me guess: Kim and the alleged victim did something that made him do that too?
    I may be in the minority on that, I know, but I wonder how many of the posters on this board have any familiarity with 18 or 19 year old boys/young men/men in the year 2006? Trust me. It is not always a pretty sight.
    Oh, clearly we should just wink and giggle about it...
    Imagine how thrilled the player that was photographed "asleep" with a wet spot on his pants feels.
    Its not his fault, Kim made him do it!
    Re: the broom comment. Both Kim and the AV, despite the horror that they both felt, the degradation, the danger, the disgust WENT BACK IN.
    Yes, it is a job. I'd deal with drunk customers at the bowling alley I'd work at when they'd say a million things because they didn't like that their pin didn't fall down. There are higher ups that won't be pleased if I leave, so I still have to deal with it. But, what, was it the shirt I was wearing, Sharon?
    Everyone is racist because, as pathetic as it is, it is ultimately means of self-definition against another. Have you seen "Crash"? If not, I suggest you see it.
    It's a piece of melodramatic tripe that simplifies racism and basically says, "it's okay to be racist because, hey, everybody else probably is!" without getting to the causes/motives, and responsibility. Not to mention how Asians were practically non-existent. It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior.
    I love hearing the female commentators discussing artificial nails - the cost, the durability, the pain of removal. As if the AV had paid $40+ at a salon or spa. No, no, no. This I will bet anyone here: the AV bought some press-on nails. Those things come off so easily, cost very little, and come ready to . . . press on.
    For all we know, she could have bought the glue-on nails.
    I saw an interview a few weeks back of a former stripper and a former porn star, who both have set up programs to help women get out of stripping/escort/sex careers. The stripper stated (and the porn star agreed) that 99% of the time women in their formers careers use alcohol or drugs before (for courage), during (to remove inhibitions) and after (to forget) house calls/filming.
    What, was that on the O'Gagme Factor? I saw that one. I know two strippers. One of them wouldn't take a single drink of Smirnoff because she was on her way to work.
    Kim's credibility is next to nil, so her perceptions are laughable to me. God love her: that email to the PR firm ruined her as a witness, if the embezzlement didn't.
    She sent an email to PR firms, which isn't unusual, that she knew they'd read. She indicated she didn't want her profession to reflect badly on her, she didn't say anything about specific circumstances in the case (which if she had, I might see your point). From what I've observed, she has been way more stand-up in this than any of your precious, sweet, innocent "boys" you keep making excuses for.
    Being hospitalized for a week would indicate being highly suicidal or having a break with reality.
    Firstly, being suicidal wouldn't necessarily (and likely not, in fact) suggest a "mental illness" so much as circumstances. Also, depending on the nature of the characteristics associated, yes, it could just be exhaustion.But either way, despite the "nuts and sluts"-baiting, a "mental illness" can be very specific.
    I'm not sure what's so awful about shoving, but even if it is awful, there's been no confirmation that any of the lacrosse players actually said any such thing, AFAIK.
    As far as shove being "awful", you're going to have to ask the person who flew off the handle when I attributed the word "shove" to what was reportedly said.

    Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    Anyone wonder if the reason why the AV spilled her own drink was that she was already intoxicated?
    Wouldn't that be consistent with the defendants' position that she showed up wasted and could hardly dance? The premise that the AV/FA was not wasted is based on KIm's whole "glassy eyed" and "I gave her a look" a look story was made during her interview after the email to the PR firm. Kim started crying that she should have done more....how self serving for the TV. Where was this compasion when she tried to dump her off at the Kroger? She probaly took the AV/FA's cash before the Kroger. LIke you said Bob:
    Roberts' history makes her a pretty unreliable source of truth.


    All other issues surrounding the photo ID aside, I have a couple of questions about visual IDs in general. How accurate are photo ids vs. in-person lineups? How accurate are cross-racial and cross-gender IDs? Does the accuracy of a visual ID in a rape case, or in any case in which a victim is traumatized increase or decrease according to how soon the id process happens after the event? Is there some sort of bell curve where healing time and reflection make memories more accurate? I'm just thinking about this because of the specific photos images in question. Finnerty is fairly distinctive looking, but if I recall, he might have had an older brother on the team, so there could have been two similar looking pale Irish kids. McFayden, Evans and Seligman are all tall-ish, dark-ish and solid-ish looking. So is the Tony-whose-last-name-I-don't-recall. If we're talking some level of some kind ofintoxication (whether self-induced or not), a sea of unfamiliar faces, a traumatic experience, etc. How accurate would her IDs be under the most ideal of lineup conditions?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#64)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 07:35:38 AM EST
    jstamom, I'm not challenging your source's information, but if Finnerty is 19 or 20, how does he buy beer? Someone else who's 21 go with him? If so, he's got another witness, right?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#65)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 07:47:17 AM EST
    From an earlier post: Lora, what is your source for claiming that the DNA was a 90% match? I thought that chimpanzees and humans shared something like 95% DNA. That's why statistics come after "lies" and "damned lies." I'm not suggesting that runaway lemurs from the zoo had been rummaging through the garbage can in the bathroom at Buchanan after the fact, but at a certain point people need to understand that a 90% match isn't a match and the contaminated press-on nail found in a garbage can days after the fact has no evidentiary value other than it was there in the garbage. And no one is denying that. There is no DNA evidence of a rape.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I'm not challenging your source's information, but if Finnerty is 19 or 20, how does he buy beer? Someone else who's 21 go with him? If so, he's got another witness, right?
    Kali's source has Finnerty sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 a.m. Was it an oyster bar?

    Oh, Bob, I didn't know you were that naive: a 19 year old with a fake ID? Shocking. And Durga: where to begin? 1. Your quote from my post was NOT an ad hominem attack, it was the kind of thing that is allowed to attack a witness', any witness' credibility. Illegal activity, past instances of lying, criminal convictions (especially in Kim's case for crimes involving fraud) are legitimate means to impeach a witness. They attack not the person herself, rather they go to her history of truthfulness or the lack thereof. 2. 18-19 year old young men, in my experience, frequently use the phrase "that's, or you're, so gay meaning NOTHING about the sexual orientation of the person addressed. Is it stupid? Sure. Is it, in Finnerty's case especially ironic, sophomoric? Sure. Does it necessarily have ANYTHING to do with actually being a homosexual? NO. That was my point. If you want to "wink and giggle" go right ahead, get your jollies where you can. 3. That was my point: even "glue on" nails (which are hard to find these days because the press-on ones are so much easier to apply as well as cheaper) can come off, easily, by popping the top of a can. 4. The email: come on Durga - she was looking to profit from another woman's misery. Doesn't that offend you? Wouldn't that make a juror think that she might be motivated to tell the kind of story that would "spin" to her advantage rather than a possibly boring but true one? Oh yeah, it's because she has to feed her daughter. And I am resisting, mightily, the urge to discuss your use of the term "stand-up" when talking about an escort service worker.

    One more point Durga: I have no idea if any of the lacrosse players are precious, or sweet (isn't that a slang word for homosexual? shame on you for gay bashing), or innocent in the generic sense of the word. I am, however, unconvinced that they are NOT innocent of the charges against them.

    If she told the police in the Kroger parking lot that she had been sexually assaulted, why did they take her to the substance abuse facility? Not a snide question, I'm legitimately curious, as I'd always assumed that she didn't tell authorities that she was raped until after she'd been brought to said facility.

    Theresa: I hope you continue to post on this topic -- objectivity is always helpful. This case is about prosecutorial misconduct by Mike Nifong and his self-promotion at the expense of the truth. We should not lose sight of that in the morass of other issues that have come to light. In the spirit of "do as I say, not as I do" here is my take on some of the other issues around this case: Lacrosse players are innocent of the rape charges but there is truth in what IMHO says that several of them are low class. They throw a tasteless party and let things get out of control by either provoking, or at least escalating, problems with racist and sexually aggressive comments. The most charitable view is that they lack(ed) judgment and moral character. The lacrosse coach is not a hero. He lost control of a team and recruited individuals who brought shame to the university that they represent. He should have been fired. Duke will not miss that mom from Georgia who said that she told her son not to go there because of how they handled this situation. Would the son go out and do something vile and stupid? Duke may have dodged a bullet on that one. Kali, I think the only lacrosse player with any legitimate complaint about the university's treatment is McFadyen and it was frankly for his own good to get him off campus given the safety risk. Suing the university would be ludicrous, though I agree that the team should play on under new leadership and the alumni should push for Danowski. I think that the Durham community should support the accuser/victim but should be open to the truth, even if it means that the accuser/victim is lying. Why push for a gag order only when the facts are contrary to her story? Hypocrisy is the weapon of the oppressor. Am I the only one who believes that the taxi driver is a hero? He's thrust in a difficult situation and does the right thing despite personal pain (Nifong muscling him to lie). The Durham community should rally around him. Finally, and it bears repeating if only for catharsis, shame on Mike Nifong for sacrificing the truth and civil rights to win the DA election. It's the DA of Durham, for Christ's sake, hardly worth sacrificing our justice system, community, and the hard work of his family as a guardian ad litem. Sad.

    Good point thinkandtype. Can't remember where I read it, but something to the effect that initial responding officer to the Kroger handed the AV over to another officer to take to the detox/psychiatric facility. He was called later, from the hospital, and told that the woman that he thought was just drunk said she had been raped. He then reported to the hospital because he was the first police officer to see her and be involved in her case.

    posted by thinkandtype:
    I'm just thinking about this because of the specific photos images in question. Finnerty is fairly distinctive looking, but if I recall, he might have had an older brother on the team, so there could have been two similar looking pale Irish kids.
    Finnerty's brother was, reportedly, a senior at Duke, but he does not appear on the team roster at all, unlike his brother Collin, the ATTACKER. LOL!

    Well said, atl.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#74)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:26:16 AM EST
    Durga, your snark about racism aside, not all racists rape strippers. Not all sexists or makers of rude remarks rape strippers. You are making some connection between the behavior of some of the people at the party and the people who allegedly committed the rape. Finnerty and Seligmann apparently weren't even around when the lame "cotton shirt" remark was made. No one's connected the man with the mustache to either the broomstick comment or the "cotton shirt" comment. You write: It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior. The "movie" being that everyone harbors racist thoughts. But everyone does. Go read the research. But what you are doing is alleging that the existence of racism somehow helps the argument that a crime was committed. If you push the b*llsh*t backwards through the machine, it still doesn't work. The NBPP are a racist anti-Semitic organization, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. They are an offshoot of the Nation of Islam, whose tenets are also racist. What does that prove in this case? Nothing, other than it's probable that underlying their motivation in getting involved was racism and their opportunity to strut around and pretend that they're defending the black community. But it doesn't prove a thing about what happened that night. +++ Regarding your comment that being "suicidal" is not a mental illness, I'd suggest that you do a check between symptom and disease. The disease is what you are hospitalized for. Being suicidal is the symptom. By the way, trying to run over someone with a stolen taxicab is "homicidal." From what little we know about the AV I would guess some kind of dissociative state. But maybe I'm wrong about the seriousness of being hospitalized for mental illness. I don't know anyone I've worked with or in my circle of friends and acquaintances or family who have been hospitalized for a mental illness for a week. And I know lots of people who are a little crazy. Actually, I was told that one guy who was in my company in the army had dropped too much acid and was hospitalized. That was back in 1973. Durga, how many times have you been hospitalized for a week for mental illness? Not just the 72 hours because you may have been a danger to self or others? How many of your homeys? Your family? So in order to avoid your own "nuts and sluts" baitng, perhaps we shouldn't discuss the AV's hospitalization. Perhaps we shouldn't discuss her occupation either. Perhaps was should all just agree with you that she's "sweet." Of course, we still have the "sweet" AV's statement and absolutely nothing else that proves that a gangrape had been committed.

    thinkandtalk: I've wondered about the method of the photo id "line-up" as well, as I suppose many of us has. Maybe I watch too much of the Law & Order series, or read too many crime novels, but Nifong's methodology seems curious to me. Why not follow a more standard "what color was his hair? what color were his eyes? how tall was he? how much did he weigh? did he have any distinguishing marks? what complexion was he? what was he wearing?" set her up with a sketch artist, see what they can come up with? Preemptive response: I can completely understand if a rape victim is unable to come up with a lot of details about what her attacker looked like. But get as much info as you can, then have a "six pack" that includes one, say, dark haired, dark eyed, heavy set, white lacrosse player, and five similar looking non-lacrosse player. I know this would take more time, but don't sacrifice the independent identification for the sake of expediency. Let her take her time, for goodness sake. But especially in Seligman's case, since he was supposed to be in front of her, and since she did say she was 100% sure about him, if she could have picked him out from a six pic array, that would give her so much more credibility.

    Easy to believe that Nifong was not sure she could make the ID that way so he made it easier on her.

    Durga wrote:
    As far as I'm concerned, it "started" with the broom comment.
    I agree the bad blood and tension started there. But as far as I have read (Lora I hear your point) the insult-fest started outside and was escalated to a racial level there. If Kim threw the first racial insult, then that is significant from the racial level because she took it there first.
    It's a piece of melodramatic tripe that simplifies racism and basically says, "it's okay to be racist because, hey, everybody else probably is!" without getting to the causes/motives, and responsibility. Not to mention how Asians were practically non-existent. It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior.
    No, the premise was that racism is serious problem that transcends the stereotypical only white people can be racist mentality...that you clearly have. It basically was pointing out that everyone needs to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their contribution to the racism problem...including you. IWhat pisses you off is that it takes away your favorite target...white racism and forces you to see that racism comes in multiple forms. Case in point, you basically just called me a white racist. You don't even know me. I have said nothing racist on this blog and never would. Your attitude is part of the racist problem in America....the presumption that white people are racist. While my opinion may differ from yours and others, I look at the facts of this case in a color blind manner...you evidently do not. The very last thing that movie stood for was that "it's okay to be racist because, hey, everybody else probably is!" It stood for the opposite, everyone is racist and it is not OK. That's why it took tragedy or potential tragedy to wake people up to just how destructive racism is. You sound so bitter, get over yourself.
    I understand that they had to finish a job, anybody who does any type of works knows that deal.
    Give me a break.....don't impose your integrity and dedication to your job to these two. You insult yourself. Are you saying that someone who has admittedly embezzled $25k from a stable, good paying job for no reason respects the concept of employment? Which job did she feel obliged to finish...her payroll job or her embezzlement job. And what about the AV/FA stealing her client's cab, does she respect her job enough to not steal from the customers? Guess what they both got fired because they did not respect their jobs. You presume the sex business is full of people with intergity and respect for others. Are you really this naive?
    I know two strippers. One of them wouldn't take a single drink of Smirnoff because she was on her way to work.
    I used the pannel as an example instead of something annectdotal....but I can play your I Know game too....I know about 6 strippers and am very close friends with 3 ex-strippers and one former call girl. I have represented a few of them and helped a few out with some life problems. Only one was a high priced call girl in NY, none of the others are escorts, which is a big difference, according to the girls I know. At least 5 of the girls I know have been to rehab. So get off your horse. Furthermore, the two women on the pannel know more that either you or I, so deference should be given to them. And before you patronize them, their goal is to provide job skills, support and education so they can improve their lives and get into the non-sex work place where respect for the job is commonplace. I would think you would embrace their efforts.

    Sharon, I see your point about the lineup in general, and tend to agree that it was, with the best possible spin, irregular. But assuming that it wasn't so irregular, how likely is she to make a correct ID of the tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player-rapist in a sea of similar looking tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player non-rapists?

    1. Your quote from my post was NOT an ad hominem attack, it was the kind of thing that is allowed to attack a witness', any witness' credibility.
    Ad hominems are allowed in court. They can be useful to either sway the jury or break the person down. That's why I could never be a lawyer or work for the court, I can't serve two masters.
    Illegal activity, past instances of lying, criminal convictions (especially in Kim's case for crimes involving fraud) are legitimate means to impeach a witness. They attack not the person herself, rather they go to her history of truthfulness or the lack thereof.
    Ad hominem circumstantial. Perhaps if she'd been a witness in a rape-case before and lied...
    2. 18-19 year old young men, in my experience, frequently use the phrase "that's, or you're, so gay meaning NOTHING about the sexual orientation of the person addressed. Is it stupid? Sure. Is it, in Finnerty's case especially ironic, sophomoric? Sure. Does it necessarily have ANYTHING to do with actually being a homosexual? NO.
    No, not necessarily. But maybe it does. Anyway, that wasn't what I was saying. It was just how you put on your rose-colored glasses with these "boys". He got in a public fight with another man over the word gay, but, oh, he is just a 19 year old boy.
    That was my point. If you want to "wink and giggle" go right ahead, get your jollies where you can.
    Hey, it does seem to be working for you.
    3. That was my point: even "glue on" nails (which are hard to find these days because the press-on ones are so much easier to apply as well as cheaper) can come off, easily, by popping the top of a can.
    I can go right up to Meijer or any drug store and buy them. Maybe it is a regional thing. Or I can buy press-on ones and super-glue them. Popping the top of a can is not the usual pressure you'd try to put on a fake-nail. But, all this is speculation anyway...
    4. The email: come on Durga - she was looking to profit from another woman's misery.
    She is profiting from a dog and pony show.
    Doesn't that offend you?
    In most cases, if the conditions were what you seem to have tried to frame it as above, yes.
    Wouldn't that make a juror think that she might be motivated to tell the kind of story that would "spin" to her advantage rather than a possibly boring but true one?
    I think a defense lawyer can (and will) completely spin the context in which the sentence she put the word "spin" in was used now that they see she isn't on their "side". But anyway she could have gotten just as much from, say, sensationalizing something for the defense. Who, funnily enough, didn't seem to care about her prior crime when they claimed her statement was on their side.
    Oh yeah, it's because she has to feed her daughter.
    Hey, so she is pretty honest, huh?
    And I am resisting, mightily, the urge to discuss your use of the term "stand-up" when talking about an escort service worker.
    Gee, how tactful. I mean, it's nothing like minimizing the actions/behavior of the "boys" or anything. Kudos!
    One more point Durga: I have no idea if any of the lacrosse players are precious, or sweet (isn't that a slang word for homosexual? shame on you for gay bashing),
    Maybe in your head.
    I am, however, unconvinced that they are NOT innocent of the charges against them.
    ...Which would actually be relevant that what I've said if your constant making excuses for their other behavior yet holding the women to a different standard was the same thing.
    Durga, your snark about racism aside, not all racists rape strippers. Not all sexists or makers of rude remarks rape strippers.
    I know. I didn't say they did. I'm trying to reconcile dismissing the behavior of a certain group of people and dismissing the criticisms of the behavior of a certain group of people and then turning around and not only using behavior of another group to say she was lying, but suggesting certain behavior in general is responsible for the actions of others.
    You write: It is irritating how many white racists I've seen use that movie to justify their behavior. The "movie" being that everyone harbors racist thoughts. But everyone does. Go read the research.
    Please, get over yourself. I know what the movie is about, you missed my point entirely.
    But what you are doing is alleging that the existence of racism somehow helps the argument that a crime was committed.
    No, I'm not. Pray tell where I ever did that.
    Regarding your comment that being "suicidal" is not a mental illness, I'd suggest that you do a check between symptom and disease.
    Suicidal tendencies can be a symptom of a disease, but seemingly more than often it has to do with somebody's environment.
    Durga, how many times have you been hospitalized for a week for mental illness? Not just the 72 hours because you may have been a danger to self or others? How many of your homeys? Your family?
    So glad you asked! Alright, a "homey" of mine, partly at the urgency of her otherwise careless family members, was hospitalized for a week and a half at a place called Havenwick because she just started crying and then shut down. Of course, it didn't help that she had an absent ex, three unappreciative kids, an unsympathetic job, and no real help. There was really nothing "wrong" with her head (as they found out, but anybody could have told them and saved some time) and there still isn't. She ended up getting a lot of (non-mental) help and now that her kids are a bit older, they are more understanding and sorry for how they were. Somebody very close to me at young age was hospitalized for two weeks at two separate places because they were suicidal. They ended up giving her Ritilin and Lithium instead of considering that she was living in an isolated apartment with nobody to socialize with and just had to deal with some major experiences in the family. The pills made her shaky and all watered-down, she ended up stop taking them. As conditions improved, she was okay and still is. I hate to sound all Tom Cruise and all, but I've learned to be wary of people who want to make somebody psychotic when the mere circumstances they are in can account for their behavior. Of course, I don't want to apply this to the alleged victim either way, but I am going in with an open-minded approach.
    No, the premise was that racism is serious problem that transcends the stereotypical only white people can be racist mentality...that you clearly have. It basically was pointing out that everyone needs to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their contribution to the racism problem...including you.
    I wasn't talking about it's premise, I was characterizing why I didn't like it. It certainly didn't deserve an award.
    What pisses you off is that it takes away your favorite target...white racism and forces you to see that racism comes in multiple forms.
    "My favorite target"? Do we hang out? No. It "pissed me off" (actually, disappointed me. Plus it was ironic they Ludicrous in there) because it simplified it. It really, really didn't get to the root and motives and try to say what we can do to avoid it. Watching it you wouldn't even know Asians face racism.
    Case in point, you basically just called me a white racist.
    No, I didn't. I told you my opinion on the movie and why it left a bad taste in my mouth. You're putting a whole bunch of stuff together in your own head that I can't account for.
    You don't even know me.
    Please, you should talk. I don't know at what point you decided to fly off the handle, but, sorry, the movie didn't quite do it for me. Go cry to Mat Dillon or something. My original contention was the instances of when somebody points out the behavior of these men was racist/demeaning, people accuse them of playing the race card or say, "but everybody is". Look, they said that stuff, they are responsible for it, that look bad for it. Whether they raped or not, whatever Kim said or if she started the second time, these men did say it (or, a couple of them did and the accused called them "the best bunch of guys!"). Not because Kim danced provocatively, not because she didn't have bouncers, not because she committed fraud, not because the alleged victim was in the hospital, but because they wanted to say demeaning things. And they did.
    Give me a break.....don't impose your integrity and dedication to your job to these two. You insult yourself. Are you saying that someone who has admittedly embezzled $25k from a stable, good paying job for no reason respects the concept of employment?
    Did she embezzle this one? They both went back in ... or did stealing a car make the alleged victim do that?
    I used the pannel as an example instead of something annectdotal....but I can play your I Know game too....I know about 6 strippers and am very close friends with 3 ex-strippers and one former call girl. I have represented a few of them and helped a few out with some life problems. Only one was a high priced call girl in NY, none of the others are escorts, which is a big difference, according to the girls I know. At least 5 of the girls I know have been to rehab. So get off your horse.
    You know these women? You insult yourself!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#80)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 09:18:20 AM EST
    Hear hear, Kalidoggie.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#81)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 09:25:02 AM EST
    Wow, The Duke women's lacrosse team plans on playing the championship game wearing "innocent" wristbands. What does this say about the attitudes of Duke students and student atheletes? This has to be a gratuitous plea for attention. Just imagine if their sports powerhouse neighbor UNC was caught in a similar situation. What if the UNC men's basketball team was caught up in a scandal involving strippers and rape. Would anyone expect to see Ivory Latta hoisting a trophy wearing an "innocent" headband? Not on your life. The UNC atheletic department is used to focusing on winning championships and maintaining it's image to allow blatantly boorish behavior such as this. If Duke ever wants to be considered to have a serious atheletic department, they need to nip this in the bud. These young women are showing an incredible insensitivity to victims of sexual misconduct and rape.

    azbballfan, I haven't formed an opinion on that, but did you see what the Bay To Breakers did? It wasn't even as if they were showing support for somebody they thought were falsely accused, they were blatantly trivializing the experience of rape victims. But its probably not their fault, they're just 40 year old boys who probably saw Kim dance provocatively.

    This case is about prosecutorial misconduct by Mike Nifong and his self-promotion at the expense of the truth. We should not lose sight of that in the morass of other issues that have come to light.
    Shouldn't we see what he has before that is decided? As Sharon has pointed out, he may have information that has not been written in reports. I doubt it, but it is a possibility.
    Lacrosse players are innocent of the rape charges but there is truth in what IMHO says that several of them are low class. They throw a tasteless party and let things get out of control by either provoking, or at least escalating, problems with racist and sexually aggressive comments. The most charitable view is that they lack(ed) judgment and moral character.
    I wouldn't use the term "low class." I don't know what it means. Some people denigrate the accuser for selling her body[which we still do not know includes sexual intercourse for money], while others consider high priced prostitutes as being "high class."
    The lacrosse coach is not a hero. He lost control of a team and recruited individuals who brought shame to the university that they represent. He should have been fired.
    I agree, making the players "run" when the infractions were reported to him is lame. How about threateneing them with loss of playing time? The "player in the shadows" blamed the disconnect between the administration and Pressler in the reporting of the players' infractions. A new twist on "blame the messenger?" Hmmm? The infractions weren't reported, so he couldn't make us "run," so we weren't motivated to not plan the stripper party? The administration let the players down! Yeah, right.
    Duke will not miss that mom from Georgia who said that she told her son not to go there because of how they handled this situation.
    I agree.
    I think the only lacrosse player with any legitimate complaint about the university's treatment is McFadyen and it was frankly for his own good to get him off campus given the safety risk.
    I agree, but the climate in which that CYA decision was made, in my ever so humble opinion, was created by [cover your ears and go "la la la la la la," Kali] the players united decision to cancel the interviews coach Pressler had helped arrange.
    I think that the Durham community should support the accuser/victim but should be open to the truth, even if it means that the accuser/victim is lying. Why push for a gag order only when the facts are contrary to her story? Hypocrisy is the weapon of the oppressor.
    I agree.
    Am I the only one who believes that the taxi driver is a hero? He's thrust in a difficult situation and does the right thing despite personal pain (Nifong muscling him to lie). The Durham community should rally around him.
    Nifong muscling him to lie? He was arrested for an outstanding warrant after questioning, as was Kim Roberts.
    Finally, and it bears repeating if only for catharsis, shame on Mike Nifong for sacrificing the truth and civil rights to win the DA election. It's the DA of Durham, for Christ's sake, hardly worth sacrificing our justice system, community, and the hard work of his family as a guardian ad litem. Sad.
    I'll reserve judgment on Nifong, just as I have reserved judgment on the guilt of the indicted players and the guilt of the accuser.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#84)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 26, 2006 at 09:34:14 AM EST
    Durga, you wrote: Suicidal tendencies can be a symptom of a disease, but seemingly more than often it has to do with somebody's environment. Since mental illness is very often caused by or contributed to by environment, your point is really no point. Most serial killers have deficits in their frontal lobes demonstrably caused by abusive childhoods. People suffering from depression have less effective synapses in their frontal lobes, and there's evidence that those deficits can be reversed through various therapies. Whether the AV was mentally ill from her environment or by a condition with which she was born is irrelevant. She was hospitalized for a week. Your argument about being poor and oppressed tends to lead to mental illness doesn't conflict with what I'm saying at all. You've only argued that the AV was more likely to have been mentally than the rich guys at the house. Oh, and your list of personal acquaintances who were hospitalized. Thanks. It's rather small, so it would suggest that being hospitalized for mental illness isn't a common practice. Thanks for proving another point. Since you don't address to whom you're responding to, I think the rest of your post was to someone else, maybe kalidoggie.

    OOPS! All of the above quotes were posted by atl52.

    Your argument about being poor and oppressed tends to lead to mental illness doesn't conflict with what I'm saying at all.
    I didn't say being poor and oppressed lead to mental illness. In fact I said it was nothing at all, they were people reacting to their circumstances naturally and being made out to be psychotic for it when they weren't. They were people who weren't mentally ill. And were in hospitals for more than a week.

    Durga posted:
    I'm trying to reconcile dismissing the behavior of a certain group of people and dismissing the criticisms of the behavior of a certain group of people and then turning around and not only using behavior of another group to say she was lying, but suggesting certain behavior in general is responsible for the actions of others.
    Some commenters here object to the stereotyping of Duke students, or lacrosse players, while they have said things like "her chosen occupation does not attract the most forthright, honest and sober people."

    Bob In Pacifica posted: jstamom, ...if Finnerty is 19 or 20, how does he buy beer? Someone else who's 21 go with him? If so, he's got another witness, right?
    inmyhumbleopinion posted: Kali's source has Finnerty sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 a.m. Was it an oyster bar?
    SharonInJax posted: Oh, Bob, I didn't know you were that naive: a 19 year old with a fake ID? Shocking.
    Hold on, wait. .... 19-year-old Colin Finnerty was sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 AM? In California you cannot serve or sell alcohol after 2 AM. What is the cut off hour in North Carolina? Is it different for onsite bar sales than for cash & carry for the beer he alleged took to resupply the party? Is it being alleged that he used a fake ID or was the driver with an older friend buying?

    thinkandtype: you said
    But assuming that it wasn't so irregular, how likely is she to make a correct ID of the tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player-rapist in a sea of similar looking tall/dark/stocky lacrosse player non-rapists?
    Exactly. If she were unable to distinguish the rapist from the non-rapists, her id would not be enough. No matter the crime being investigated, if someone is to identify a perpertrator, they must be able to be sure they've picked the right guy. If you were accused of a crime and your victim couldn't distinguish your picture from the pictures of 5 others who look somewhat like you, would you think her id valid?

    The Duke women's lacrosse team is admirable -- there has been a rush to judgment and, given what we have as available information, it was the rush to an incorrect judgment. More power to them to show their support for the concept that folks are innocent until proven guilty. That principle is in no way inconsistent with, or insensitive of, victim's rights. That said, I disagree with the decision of the women's lacrosse coach to invite the ex-men's lacrosse coach to speak to the team. I can't justify that on principle. azbballfan: If you disagree with the women's lacrosse team decision, there are many ways to do it without condescension. Plus, I believe that any UCLA athlete worth their salt would stand up for their peers if she/he believed there was an unfair rush to judgment. IMHO: I agree that "low class" is vague -- perhaps "boorish" is a reasonable alternative. If we believe what the defense attorneys are saying, Nifong is guilty of either withholding evidence or rushing to judgment without sufficient evidence. Assuming that is true, I can sleep well at night labeling Nifong an "evil-doer".

    Adj. 1. ad hominem - appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments" Durga: My stating of facts about the AV's past is not an attack on her as a PERSON, but rather an attack on her credibility.

    azbball: what information, knowledge, examples can you give me about the moral superiority of the Carolina athletic department? How about when Matt Doherty made rude, childish and churlish comments about the Duke cheerleaders?
    The UNC atheletic department is used to focusing on winning championships and maintaining it's image to allow blatantly boorish behavior such as this.
    I don't know, when I was at Duke, the Carolina athletes were neither better than worse than the Duke ones were, as far as "character" goes. BTW, one of my brothers also attended Duke and the two others went to Carolina.

    Duke women's lax team wants to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Any civil libertarians have a problem with that? I agree, atl, inviting the men's coach was a bad move, but if these women/girls want to show solidarity with their male counterparts, I defend their right so to do.

    Sharon I just realized that the question I was asking in my head, somehow wasn't clearly the question I posted. I shall re-phrase, as I appreciate your insight/patience in this. Assume for a moment that the irregularities in this particular line up didn't exist. That what we are dealing with is a photo id that asks an alleged trauma victim to make a cross-racial, cross-gendered visual identification, a given period of time after the alleged traumatic experience. How accurate, in a general sense, are these kinds of IDs? I think perhaps the irregularities of this particular ID increase the focus on the personal credibility of the AV--and therefore some of the more inflammatory rhetoric about said credibility. So I guess it's kind of more an academic exercise than anything. . .

    Sharon, I wholeheartedly agree. I think the women's team is courageous. I'm disappointed in azbballfan, I did not expect him to troll for a fight. Maybe the going is a little rough in his neighborhood, with USC on the gridiron and Lute on the hardwoods :-)

    SharonInJax posted:
    Duke women's lax team wants to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Any civil libertarians have a problem with that? I agree, atl, inviting the men's coach was a bad move, but if these women/girls want to show solidarity with their male counterparts, I defend their right so to do.
    They may (or may not), think it is "in the face" of the Duke admins, but they are doing it only because the adminstrators are letting them. Obviously, the Duke administration could stop them from playing in the game while expressing their first amendment rights. Do you think they would be allowed to wear sweatbands that said "The FA is a lying wh*re?" Do you think they may be inviting unwanted negative attention to the tournament. Are they inviting protesters to hold up "GUILTY" signs? Do you think their oppenents would appreciate that? What if their opponents decide to wear "Duke Men's Lacrosse use Broomsticks" sweatbands?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#97)
    by wumhenry on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:27:55 AM EST
    I disagree with the decision of the women's lacrosse coach to invite the ex-men's lacrosse coach to speak to the team. I can't justify that on principle.
    What's wrong with it?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#98)
    by Jo on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:30:33 AM EST
    Are they inviting protesters to hold up "GUILTY" signs?
    If the presumption is "innocent until proven guilty", then the "Innocent" armbands/headbands are the correct message to display at this time. After the trial, (if there is one), this could change.

    IMHO wrote:
    Kali's source has Finnerty sitting at a bar in DC at around 2:00 a.m. Was it an oyster bar?
    I never said this or heard this, I have no idea what time it was. be honest in your posts!
    I'm going to guess more than $25,000 was illegally gained by her activities
    Well over $100k. I am impressed that's a lot of cash for sex. If Kim or the AV/FA made the same amount I would be equally impressed What's your point other than attacking me personally?
    Kim Roberts' illegal activities = scorn, lack of credibility. High priced call girl's illegal activities = impressive, "more power to her"
    You lose credibility when you make arguments like this. Why don't you identify the "illegal activities" then compare. Kim - escort, embezzlement Friend - escort The crux of Kim's lack of credibility in my opinion derives from her embezzlement of $25k from a payroll company and attempts to profit from tragedy, not her occupation. There are grades of scorn for illegal activity, which is why we have misdemeanors and felonies. Soliciting is a vice misdemeanor while embezzlement is a felony. So, yes Kim deserves more scorn! Or do you feel, because you are so pure and innocent, that all illegal activities should be treated the same speeding ticket equal to murder; stealing a car equal to jaywalking, and receive the same social scorn? Lastly, I never said my friend did not take drugs or abuse alcohol (she went to rehab and is now 6 years sober). Make a point about the facts of the case and stop attacking me personally. Don't forget "you're the best."

    alt52 posted:
    If we believe what the defense attorneys are saying, Nifong is guilty of either withholding evidence or rushing to judgment without sufficient evidence. Assuming that is true, I can sleep well at night labeling Nifong an "evil-doer".
    He may have evidence he is not required to turn over, yet. *snark alert* alt52, You might want to avoid using this phrase "Assuming that is true" in conjunction with this phrase - "If we believe what the defense attorneys are saying."

    I agree, think. All the factors you mentioned can decrease a victim's ability to identify his or her attacker. Thus the sad truth is that if she could not id her attackers in a fair lineup, the case could not have gone forward. Nifong stacked the deck in favor of the AV, made the id easier on her, and that is, to me, unacceptablly biased in favor of the accuser, not fair to the accused. imho: I honestly doubt that the Northwestern women care one way or another if the Duke women have one, non-inflammatory, per se, word. I suspect that they are much more focused on playing the game, and are no doubt thankful that it isn't their university caught up in a scandal. One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re." I know there might not be room on the sweatbands, but how about if the Duke women had "Reasonable Doubt" written on them. Still have a problem with that? From all I've read, the two programs (men's and women's lax at Duke) are close: not surprising considering it is a sport that has only recently gained interest and appreciation anywhere south of Virginia or Maryland. Those women know those men better than any of us here do, of this I am sure. Could the "Innocent" statement give Northwestern players "bulletin board material"? Sure. But if the Duke women want to risk that to show their support, to show their honest assessment of the guilt or innocence of Evans, Finnerty and Seligman, I find nothing wrong with it. Not sure how many seniors there are on the women's team, but however many there are, they have likely known Evans for four years, seen him in all sorts of settings. I see it the same way I can see what my daughter's reaction would be if her brother were accused of something that she was SURE he had not done. She would not know, of course, whether he truly was or was not innocent. But I could not fault her for wanting to proclaim her belief in him.

    imho: please give an example of what Nifong has, now, that he is not required to hand over to the defense.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#103)
    by Teresa on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:56:18 AM EST
    Do we know if the guard smelled it on Kim's breath? If we are going to entertain the possiblity the stumbling accuser might have accidentally fallen against Evans and scratched his arm, how about the accuser's spilled drink? Maybe it was spilled onto Kim?
    imho, remember that one of the pictures shows a player holding a beer upside down over the women while they are in the floor (Abrams show?). The reporter said he/she couldn't tell if it was just an empty bottle, but even a little beer on her outfit would smell like alcohol to the security guard.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#105)
    by wumhenry on Fri May 26, 2006 at 12:04:02 PM EST
    "Durga_" wrote:
    I think a defense lawyer can (and will) completely spin the context in which the sentence she put the word "spin" in was used now that they see she isn't on their "side".
    "can and will" is bunk. Can you cite any comment by a defense attorney reported in the press that misrepresents that context? It's hardly necessary to resort to misrepresentation re the email to discredit the woman. The unvarnished truth of the matter pretty well suffices for that purpose.
    But anyway she could have gotten just as much from, say, sensationalizing something for the defense. Who, funnily enough, didn't seem to care about her prior crime when they claimed her statement was on their side.
    It's not true that there was just as much self-serving incentive for her to change her story to help the defense. There was a powerful incentive, which you're ignored, that cut only one way: the incentive to align herself with the predominant, passionate, & vehemently-demonstrated pro-AV sentiment in her immediate community.

    imho, remember that one of the pictures shows a player holding a beer upside down over the women while they are in the floor (Abrams show?). The reporter said he/she couldn't tell if it was just an empty bottle, but even a little beer on her outfit would smell like alcohol to the security guard.
    I hadn't heard that. Teresa, if anyone but you that posted that, I'd say, "source?";)

    AZbaseball:
    If Duke ever wants to be considered to have a serious atheletic department, they need to nip this in the bud.
    You comment is so utterly petty, it is sad. Isn't it time for your nap?
    These young women are showing an incredible insensitivity to victims of sexual misconduct and rape.
    These women, as all women, have an understanding of the victims of sexual misconduct and rape far greater than you (or I) will ever know. I suggest you let the women fight this one out.

    Sharon posted:
    imho: please give an example of what Nifong has, now, that he is not required to hand over to the defense.
    Actually, you are my source. I thought you said prosecutors don't have to turn over reports if they have not been put to paper yet.

    Okay, but I think instructing labs or cops or witnesses to delay reducing their findings or statements is still an example of "witholding" evidence," just a less egregious one than willfully failing to turn over evidence that is in hand.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#110)
    by wumhenry on Fri May 26, 2006 at 12:15:12 PM EST
    One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."
    Yes; I, too, believe in the possibility of cognitive dissonance.

    Hey, wumhenry: it's what makes the world go 'round.

    SharonInJax posted:
    One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."
    Sharon, What are you suggesting I suggested?

    How about: "Mistaken mother of two, full-time student, Navy vet"?

    Do you think they would be allowed to wear sweatbands that said "The FA is a lying wh*re?"
    Just noting that those were your words, not the women's lacrosse team's and certainly not mine.

    SharonInJax posted:
    One can believe that the Duke players are innocent without believing the AV is a, as you suggested, a "lying who*re."
    I didn't suggest the AV was a lying wh*re, nor did I suggest the Duke women players believed she was a lying wh*re. Do you see the problem with the way that is written?

    SharonIn Jax posted:
    Okay, but I think instructing labs or cops or witnesses to delay reducing their findings or statements is still an example of "witholding" evidence," just a less egregious one than willfully failing to turn over evidence that is in hand.
    Do the delays have to be a result of Nifong instructions? How about that selectively used, (not by you, Sharon), Occam's Razor approach?

    Thanks, imho, and I have no idea if there are or are not reports pending, nor the reason for them not already being given to the DA. I gave examples of ways prosecutors can delay turning over to the defense information they are entitled to.

    Jo posted:
    If the presumption is "innocent until proven guilty", then the "Innocent" armbands/headbands are the correct message to display at this time. After the trial, (if there is one), this could change.
    Innocent of what? Guilty of what? I don't think either sign could be deemed inappropriate because there has been no trial. In terms of the legal definition, one isn't even a possible jury verdict.

    az wrote: These young women are showing an incredible insensitivity to victims of sexual misconduct and rape. Presumably they are saying that the three Duke lacrosse players are innocent. As I have said repeatedly, this woman is not an icon representing all women who have been victims of sexual misconduct and rape. They can make the distinction that you don't.

    Posted by cpinva May 26, 2006 12:59 PM no teresa, none of them have, but that hasn't stopped your self-pitying whine, now has it? oh woe is me! TL, i'm shocked you fell for this irrelevant nonsense. her posts, for the most part, on this issue, have been nothing short of lame, totally lacking in substance. that no one has lambasted her is a testament to the general level of civility of most of the posters here.
    TL -- Teresa is probably the sweetest, dearest, most kind hearted poster on this blog. To twist her gentle, thoughtful postings into some sort of maniacal, fanatical defense of the AV at the expense of the lax players is sick. Teresa does not take sides like that. And to bash her posts as being "lame and lacking in substance" is not only unwarranted but completely untrue. This is not -- as cpinva says -- "some other boards, lacking the gentility of this one." This is TalkLeft. If you allow this type of vicious bullying of someone as gentle as teresa to go unchallenged, then she will leave us again. And many of the long-term posters here at TalkLeft are all going to be very, very saddened by the loss of her presence. TL -- Please stop this bullying abuse of teresa now!

    What SLO said.

    inmyhumbleopinion, the reason why Roberts is an unreliable source of information is not because she works in the sex industry. The reason she is in the sex industry is because she embezzled 25,000 dollars. Because she embezzled 25,000 dollars, she's not a reliable source of information. Embezzling is a crime that requires a lot of planning and a lot of dishonesty. In addition, she lied to the police on the night in question and she lied to the security guard. She did not have to call the police at all about the exchange of epithets, but did in order to get back at the attendees of the party. In order to do so, she lied to the police about her relationship to the people there and the AV. She also lied to the security guard about how the AV came to be floppy unconscious in her car. In short, Roberts has identified an ability to lie whenever it serves her interests. Therefore, she's not a reliable source of what is truth.

    To all: According to the NewsObserver, the AV did NOT identify Dave Evans in the line-up. http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/443889.html

    Durga wrote: Somebody very close to me at young age was hospitalized for two weeks at two separate places because they were suicidal. Then later Durga wrote: ...they were people reacting to their circumstances naturally and being made out to be psychotic for it when they weren't. They were people who weren't mentally ill. And were in hospitals for more than a week. Couple of problems, Durga. Mental illness is quite natural. Naturalness doesn't cancel out mental illness (R.D. Laing to the contrary). Wanting to kill yourself because you are depressed is considered being mentally ill. In the case of all your brushes with people suffering from what appeared to doctors to be mental illness maybe they all were misdiagnosed. Maybe. It's nice to know that you don't believe in mental illness, so I can cross that off of the list of things we can discuss. The AV was hospitalized a year ago for a mental illness. We don't know what exactly her diagnosis was, if she were depressed or in some way psychotic. We know that four years ago she acted like she was disconnected from reality when she stole the taxicab, led the police on a wild chase and then tried to run over a cop. Most people, even when drunk, don't do any of those things, much less all of them. In order to do that she had to be completely separated from the consequences of her actions, which suggests a dissociative state. From what little we know, she didn't seem depressed behind the wheel of that taxicab.

    Sharon, I think, wrote:
    Duke women's lax team wants to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Any civil libertarians have a problem with that? I agree, atl, inviting the men's coach was a bad move, but if these women/girls want to show solidarity with their male counterparts, I defend their right so to do.
    It's really no different from the Black Panthers pronouncing the players guilty. People have the "right" to treat trials as if they are sporting events and go "rah, rah, rah" for the home team. I think the negatives of these exhibitions of solidarity outweight the positives, but it does make for good theatre.

    PB, you wrote:
    It's really no different from the Black Panthers pronouncing the players guilty. People have the "right" to treat trials as if they are sporting events and go "rah, rah, rah" for the home team.
    Perhaps. I think telling Reade Seligman that he was "a dead man walking" could easily be construed as making threats, and should have been more seriously dealt with than the "it's my courtroom" speech. I really think that the "innocent" head/arm bands aren't such a big deal either way. Obviously innocent as a one-word statement makes more sense (from a marketing standpoint) than trying to put "we the Duke women's lacrosse team belive Finnerty, Seligmann and Evans to be innocent of the charges of which they have been accused" onto either head or armbands. Besides, I rather think that none of the ladies in question posess heads/arms big enough for that statement. I think resentment comes because the women's lacrosse team has a more public venue in which to espouse their opinions (regardless of what those opinions are) than others who, perhaps, feel otherwise, and must content themselves with blog-posting. But I suppose cafepress could be used to create dueling head and/or armbands. It could really take off. Look at the popularity of the LiveStrong bracelets.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#127)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 02:33:21 PM EST
    Now I'm back from my nap Kali. atl wrote: azbballfan: If you disagree with the women's lacrosse team decision, there are many ways to do it without condescension. Plus, I believe that any UCLA athlete worth their salt would stand up for their peers if she/he believed there was an unfair rush to judgment Sadly, UCLA football players did have a few runins with the law a while back. Despite getting close to winning our second football NC, the coach was fired due to pressure from the alumni. We were lucky to have a few coaches in our past who set the tone of our program. Currently, there is an alleged incident involving former players who are in the NFL and the alumni are again coming down hard on the coaches and players. And the Daugherty boorish remarks incident was caught when he didn't know he was miked. He just said he thought they were ugly; he was trying to lighten the mood of his team by expressing an opinion shared by many. No sports reporter would dare replay or quote the filth that spews from K's mouth. He'd ban them and anyone close to them from all future interview sessions. Seriously, take a step back and consider what message the "lady" Duke lacrosse team is sending by wearing "innocent" sweat bands. It's good to show your support to your fellow student atheletes. "Presumed innocent" or "let them play" or "men's lacrosse" sweatbands send a message that supports the men's team. Heck, even "not guilty" is a better message. The women's team represents the university. We all know that college kids act boorish from time to time, but we prefer to see this activity laughed at in films with fictional colleges and characters. Certainly society at large do not consider these boys to be "innocent". Many may think they're not guilty, but certainly chosing "innocent" over "not guilty" sends a message of defiance. Also read: "We don't answer to you".

    AZ wrote:
    Now I'm back from my nap Kali.
    You are a good sport!

    azbballfan posted:
    The women's team represents the university. We all know that college kids act boorish from time to time, but we prefer to see this activity laughed at in films with fictional colleges and characters.
    Guffaw!

    az: so Doherty's remarks would have been okay if no one but his team knew about them?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#131)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 03:06:11 PM EST
    Sharon, No, Doherty's remarks were wrong. He chose to set a bad example for his players. However the press repeatedly reported his comments out of their original context. They did this to kick a coach while he was down and he was quickly replaced by a guy who seems to start every sentence with "golly". Just wait, next year some gutsy reporter is going to finally report on Coach K's boorish sideline behavior and draw a connection to similar behavior displayed by Duke's mens and womens lacrosse teams. Part of the image problem goes back to the days where the university used their status as a private school to refuse to accept black students. It's all part of the "We're Duke, we answer to noone mentality." that many of the alumni have their expressed disdain for. All colleges have their share of these students who try to elevate themselves to an elite status by wrapping themselves in school spirit hoping to garner the support of their fellow alumni and students. There's a fine line between being proud of having the opportunity to affiliate with a university that helps make better people and being proud to be better than everbody else because you went to a certain school.

    Bob in Pacifica, You wrote:
    We know that four years ago she acted like she was disconnected from reality when she stole the taxicab, led the police on a wild chase and then tried to run over a cop. Most people, even when drunk, don't do any of those things, much less all of them. In order to do that she had to be completely separated from the consequences of her actions, which suggests a dissociative state.
    One of the biggest problems with modern psychology is its incredible shallowness as a tool for depicting the human condition. The fact that any unlicensed, uneducated yahoo can, from the safety of their barco-lounger, issue diagnostic opinions mimicking the lingo of the DSM is only part of a much deeper problem, with true civil rights implications. "Mental health" is (among other things) a legal fiction not unlike "innocence." But while the presumption of innocence is a well-known construct in our society, the presumption of mental competence is not. That's just one of the reasons that when I hear someone being dirtied down by a pseudo-sickiatrist, I just walk on by. Real psychologists know next to nothing about the subject they charge money for. Bob in Pacifica, take it to the bank, knows even less.

    PB
    "Mental health" is (among other things) a legal fiction not unlike "innocence."
    I don't want to hold up the conversation, but could you please explain this? I don't understand what you mean.

    az wrote:
    Just wait, next year some gutsy reporter is going to finally report on Coach K's boorish sideline behavior and draw a connection to similar behavior displayed by Duke's mens and womens lacrosse teams. Part of the image problem goes back to the days where the university used their status as a private school to refuse to accept black students. It's all part of the "We're Duke, we answer to noone mentality." that many of the alumni have their expressed disdain for.
    I think this could rightfully be considered a potshot at Duke, to which posters last night rightfully objected. Last time I checked, neither the women's team, the men's basketball coach, nor the rest of the team is on trial here. Furthermore, what is your source for the slam against Duke's admissions policies from decades ago? And how, exactly do those decisions have any bearing on the facts of this particular case? Moreover, do you think that any college that ever denied admission to any group, be it women, men, blacks or whites is automatically sexist and/or racist? And that they currently promote a culture of boorishness, ringlead by their various public athletic teams. And even if you argued this point, how does it have any bearing on whether or not a crime was committed by these indicted players against this alleged victim? I usually read your arguments with interest and appreciation. It seems unfortunate that you're letting other biases cloud your usually very well-thought-out posts.

    Thinkandtype: You wrote:
    I think telling Reade Seligman that he was "a dead man walking" could easily be construed as making threats, and should have been more seriously dealt with than the "it's my courtroom" speech.
    Lawyers in serious cases make these kind of threats all the time. They are pretty much unprosecutable because they depend on subjective interpretation for their purchasing power. I've had a lawyer tell me to wear a seatbelt on the way home. I have no doubt that he was warning me off, but good luck stopping that kind of threat. He was giving me sage advise. You wrote:
    I think resentment comes because the women's lacrosse team has a more public venue in which to espouse their opinions (regardless of what those opinions are) than others who, perhaps, feel otherwise, and must content themselves with blog-posting.
    Really? Trumpeting the word innocent seems a rather ineffective way to make a point. I'd rather have three or four paragraphs worth of word-processing available to me into which I could project ideas of substance than a little emblem proclaiming what I think, as if anybody cares.

    Noname: You wrote:
    I don't want to hold up the conversation, but could you please explain this? I don't understand what you mean.
    We have a bargain with society. If we don't break the law, or exhibit fairly explicitly denoted behaviors that demonstrate that we are a threat to ourselves, or to others, we have a right to be left alone by the police and by the psychiatric community. Our innocence is presumed, as is our mental competency. Are we in fact innocent or mentally competent? Well, that's a question for Bob in Pacifica to answer. But as far as our legal status goes, nobody can diagnose us without our consent, nor can they call us criminal names without being subject to defammation charges which it is their burden to prove. It's a wonderfully civil way to run a society, and took thousands of years for human beings to come up with.

    Pat, You wrote:
    According to the NewsObserver, the AV did NOT identify Dave Evans in the line-up.
    Must not have had a mustache... Did she happen to identify anyone else, or is that double top secret information?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#138)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 03:51:28 PM EST
    thinkandtype: When looking for sources and others who would "slam" Duke, go no further than Broadhead himself. I was reiterating what Broadhead has said multiple times in multiple letters: April letter He seems willing to own up to the need for the school to improve it's reputation.
    Moreover, do you think that any college that ever denied admission to any group, be it women, men, blacks or whites is automatically sexist and/or racist?
    Similar to Broadhead himself, I was referring to the timing of these changes to indicate that the University's policies have had trouble keeping up with the social norms for behavior.
    And that they currently promote a culture of boorishness, ringle[a]d by their various public athletic teams. And even if you argued this point, how does it have any bearing on whether or not a crime was committed by these indicted players against this alleged victim?
    None of this has bearing on the case in question. However the behavior still should be condemned and stopped. Thoughtful donors and active alumni supporters seek to project affiliation with better values. Part of the story is also about the impact this incident and the reactions of it's student atheletes will have on Duke.

    Thinkandtype: You wrote:
    Obviously innocent as a one-word statement makes more sense (from a marketing standpoint) than trying to put "we the Duke women's lacrosse team belive Finnerty, Seligmann and Evans to be innocent of the charges of which they have been accused" onto either head or armbands.
    There's a reason why these Duke Lacrosse women will not be called to testify in the trial. They don't know anything of substance. But perhaps if they wear their innocence headbands to court, they can send a message to the jury.

    PB - The article linked indicates that there were two line-ups - in the first (practice) line-up, the AV did not identify Evans. In the second line-up, she said she was 90% sure, but he was wearing a mustache. Interesting that there are no notes as the process involved in the first line-up - or explanations for the discrepancies. There were two line-ups

    PB, you wrote:
    Lawyers in serious cases make these kind of threats all the time. They are pretty much unprosecutable because they depend on subjective interpretation for their purchasing power.
    But from everything I've read, this statement didn't come from Mike Nifong. In which case, the judge owes it to everyone involved to not allow it to appear as though it's a perfectly acceptable thing to make death threats in/around his courtroom. And I'm going to agree with you on the effectiveness of rational blogging--which is why I've generally enjoyed reading this site. Nevertheless, no matter how reasoned and articulate we are, the likelihood of ESPN broadcasting our efforts is, frankly, very slim. That's largely why I find the head/arm bands an interesting footnote to this whole thing. Rather like the pots-and-pans banging outside the Duke Chancellor's house. Sometimes that which is the most rhetorically crude can be remarkably effective in influencing public opinion.

    To all: WRAL has the motion filed by the defense which essentially states that Nifong has been holding back information. While I have only had time to scan part of the motion, it is interesting to note that the description provided by Nifong regarding the identification was misleading. The AV stated that he looked like the third party, sort of....and she would be 90% sure if he had a mustache. That is, even with the mustache, she was only 90% sure. Motion by Defense WRAL also states that the first officer had to use an ammonia capsule to awaken the AV - she originally stated she had been groped.

    thinkandtype posted:
    Sometimes that which is the most rhetorically crude can be remarkably effective in influencing public opinion.
    Yes, but in which direction? I can't imagine the Duke women's opponenets will appreciate the focus during a women's lacrosse tournament being on the Duke men's lacrosse team.

    az, Hmmm. I read the Brodhead article to acknowledge that while there were social issues at Duke, and that the coverage of the lax scandal perhaps brough them to the surface, that they were not issues that were only wrestled with by Duke as an institution. In fact, I think that he was cagey enough (whether deliberate or no) to allow room for interpretation of the "system" in question when addressing systemic issues. Even accepting that Brodhead was unwise enough to "slam" his employer, I don't think he ever followed the logic line that because the school was, along with most of the rest of the world of higher academics, discriminatory in its admissions process that now they, as an institution, have a "we're Duke and we answer to no one" mentality. These letters indicate, if anything, a willingness to accept outside criticism, investigate its validity, and change should said criticsm prove valid. Regardless, I'd like to point out the following. Coach K. did not rape the AV. The women's lax team did not rape the AV. Most of the mens lax team did not rape the AV. Brodhead did not rape the AV. Most people attending Duke, trying to pass their time and earn a diploma did not rape the AV. The alumni network of Duke did not rape the AV. Sneering at them does not improve any argument for or against those who might have done so.

    imho, I don't necessarily think in any particular direction. I think it's like the pots-and-pans thing. Those who support the AV will support that gesture more than those who support the ARs. Similarly, those who support the ARs are likely to be more inclined to rally behind the headbands than those who support the AVs. For those of us reserving judgement, we can applaud both gestures as crude, yet effective, ways to make their opinions rallying cries. I imagine that the opponents of the women's lax team aren't any too pleased with the situation. But, oh the incentive it would provide to win! :)

    whoops, i meant AV singular. pardon. .

    PB - Thanks for the clarification. "Legal fiction" seems like a strange term for this, but I understand what you're saying now.

    Coach K. did not rape the AV. The women's lax team did not rape the AV. Most of the mens lax team did not rape the AV. Brodhead did not rape the AV. Most people attending Duke, trying to pass their time and earn a diploma did not rape the AV. The alumni network of Duke did not rape the AV. Sneering at them does not improve any argument for or against those who might have done so.
    thinkandtype, thank you for responding to these insults so eloquently. I couldn't breathe, I was so shocked. I consider these attacks personal insults that have nothing to do with this case. To those who insist on doing this: I haven't insulted the things you love - why do you insist on insulting me and those I love? It's juvenile and mean. I fail to understand why people who say they are left and liberal (and I have major creds there) can be so prejudiced. This is not a left-right issue, or black-white, or elite/rich-underprivileged/poor, or Duke-rivals, or whatever you want to fill in here. Stop it. You demean yourself. Any further comments like this will be met by me (if I don't ignore it) with the word PREJUDICE. Perhaps you should take some shots at the Duke womens golf team, which just won the national championship a few minutes ago, beating "elite" teams such as USC, Arizona State, California, and Florida. And if you think you can chase the Dukies away from this thread with this, think again. Notice the solidarity the womens AX team is showing? You ain't seen nothing yet.

    sorry, LAX, of course

    Kalidoggie, Interesting, that poster. I wonder if it was Nifong's doing. It sounds bogus to me, though, something that maybe the NBPP might do to stir up the locals.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#151)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 05:07:24 PM EST
    thinkandtype Broadhead accepted Duke's old reputation for racist admissions policies. This and previous administrations have complained about boorish student behavior on campus. Alumni have as well. He no more "slammed" his employer than I "slammed" Duke with my earlier post; which was my poin. The negative societal attitudes towards the university are accepted by it's President who called for it's students and alumni to press forward to correct this problem. Certainly the decision by the women's players to wear "innocent" sweat bands doesn't help.

    District Attorney Nifong could not be reached for comment.

    7Duke4 wrote:
    And if you think you can chase the Dukies away from this thread with this, think again. Notice the solidarity the womens [L]AX team is showing? You ain't seen nothing yet.
    Damn Right!!! Any score updates?

    On page 6 of the motion (PDF) pointed to by Pat, it claims there were photo identification procedures conducted on March 16 and March 21, during which the AV was only shown LAX players, and she did not identify Evans. It also claims that these were undisclosed.

    Also from the motion, on pages 8 and 9:
    Sgt Shelton described the complainant as now "cooperative" when he interviewed her at the hospital. She claimed that she was pulled from a car and "groped" outside the house, but that "no one forced her to have sex."


    az, I think slam is an appropriate term for your trickle-down theory of behavior. You are, of course, entitled to see it differently. I think any rhetorical construct that follows this (paraphrased) logic is a bit spiteful, though perhaps you didn't mean it to sound as actively malicious as it comes across. Bear with the paraphrase: Duke, some 40-odd years ago was discriminatory in its admissions practices. This results in a current attitude of snobbery and privilege and boorishness widely held by those affiliated with Duke. The Duke lax teams of both genders, and Coach K, for good measure, and specifically any bad acts committed by any of them, are now poster children for Duke as a whole. Brodhead's willingness to INVESTIGATE assertions of systemic problems are therefore acknowledgements that these problems are soley Duke's, and the burden of their rectifiction should fall soley to the institution. And this so-deeply-ingrained culture of boorishness, entitlement, etc., as evidenced by headband-wearing, sideline-tantrum-throwing, open-container-having hooligans dressed in bright blue, means that. . .? Obviously, that the three men in question unquestionably raped the young lady in question, on the night in question, no questions asked. az! I know you're smarter than that, and definitely capable of better arguments.

    Posted by PB May 26, 2006 04:07 PM
    That's just one of the reasons that when I hear someone being dirtied down by a pseudo-sickiatrist, I just walk on by. Real psychologists know next to nothing about the subject they charge money for.
    Tom Cruise is that you???? Can you enlighten us on how Xenu the space alien conspired with the pseudosickiatrist's again?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#158)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 05:36:44 PM EST
    thinkandtype, You continue to put words in my mouth. I do not equate Duke's poster childrens' boorish behavior with rape. I never said it meant they were guilty of rape. They're guilty of boorish behavior. This is what I meant when I said society at large certainly doesn't view the boys as "innocent". They may prove to be "not guilty" of rape, but society at large considers them to be "guilty" of boorish behavior. And yes, you correctly pointed out that this continued behavior is painting the administration in a corner. I'd be suprised if the adminstration allows the women to play wearing the sweatbands. Their proposed action is similar to the race baiting practices used to attract attention to the school when it started. The Bassett Affair

    Ah yes, I nearly forgot. Some days ago on this board, someone (I believe imho) brought up their feelings of disgust at those on other boards, claiming to be affiliated with Duke, denigrated NCCU as "third-rate" or "a glorfied trade school." Rightfully, this kind of name-calling and pettiness was castigated. If az, kali, imho, 7duke4 or any other poster were to come to the board and make assertions like 'as a chronically underfunded state school, NCCU promotes a culture of victimhood that could provide an environment for false rape accusations" they would be deservedly lambasted. All I know about NCCU is that they have a good nursing program, and that their chancellor seems to have conducted himself with great dignity and reason during very trying times. Beyond that, I don't think the school as a system as anything to do with the particular charges alleged. And therefore, don't think it's appropriate to take potshots at NCCU any more than it's appropriate to be snide/take potshots at Duke. Ok, soapbox is away for now :).

    PB, I'm not psychiatrist, but I know that stealing a car, taking the police on a wild chase and then trying to run over a cop is not normal behavior. It is criminal behavior because it violates laws. It is anti-social behavior because it endangers society. It shows that the AV was willing to risk the lives of others in her chase. She was apparently willing to kill a cop to get away according to the police report. Now she did that when she was 23, way past the age that kids do things on the spur of the moment. We could call it criminal, immature, or we could say that maybe something went wrong with that portion of her frontal cortex that controls impulses. Last year she was hospitalized. From her father's vague characterization, it seemed to be voluntary. +++ The AV has made charges against three men. As the story has unfolded, it does not conform to the known facts. There has to be an explanation as to why her narrative is so different from what we know. Maybe she really is telling the truth and somehow everything else is wrong. I don't think so. Some people here claim that if you question the AV's mental health in the wake of her past and in the wake of the disconnectedness of her version of events from what seems to be known then you are casting aspersions against all women, or all African Americans or all rape victims. It's not. It's about this case and the AV.

    So with Sgt. Shelton, how many versions are we up to?

    Also from page 9 of the motion following on directly from the previous bit I quoted:
    Sgt Shelton then went outside the hospital to report her recantation by phone to his watch commander, but was approached during that call by someone from inside the hospital who told him that the complainant had told a doctor that she had been raped. When Sgt reentered the hospital to ask her follow-up questions about the recanted recantation, she refused to talk to him further.


    By the way, With this version: Sgt Shelton described the complainant as now "cooperative" when he interviewed her at the hospital. She claimed that she was pulled from a car and "groped" outside the house, but that "no one forced her to have sex." it's obvious that she is presenting a version of events that did not occur. Bissey did not see her get pulled out of the car and groped, nor did Roberts. We have a sexual assault reported to a police officer which she claims which did not occur. We know that there is a version of her being gangraped by twenty men, and we have the final version of three men, although it took a couple of times of her shooting fish in a barrel to come up with the final three. So, is there still anyone here who thinks that the AV is telling the truth?

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    She was apparently willing to kill a cop to get away according to the police report.
    felony assault with a deadly weapon on a government official, is a serious offense, I wonder why it was plead to a misdemeanor?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#165)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:00:31 PM EST
    thinkandtype, Sorry you lost me on your soapbox. Does NCCU have a reputation for racism and scandals? Has NCCU's chosen representatives acted poorly and certainly stupid? If so, then bloggers should be discussing what should be done to improve their reputation.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    it's obvious that she is presenting a version of events that did not occur. Bissey did not see her get pulled out of the car and groped, nor did Roberts. We have a sexual assault reported to a police officer which she claims which did not occur.
    Have they leaked Bissey's and Roberts' police statements?
    We know that there is a version of her being gangraped by twenty men, and we have the final version of three men, although it took a couple of times of her shooting fish in a barrel to come up with the final three.
    Has that "raped by 20 men" report been de-debunked?
    So, is there still anyone here who thinks that the AV is telling the truth?
    Why don't you use verified information to show her inconsistencies?

    A bad idea, just got worse: No Excuses. No Regrets
    Forced indoors because of lightning and rain showers that delayed the start of the game for at least an hour, the players filed into the Boston University basketball gym to get ready for their game against Northwestern. Several had wristbands on their arms, legs or sticks that had written in marker, "45, 13, 6" _ the uniform numbers of the three players from the men's team accused of raping a stripper they hired for a team party.
    Other wristbands said, "No Excuses. No Regrets."


    az, Judging from the caliber of some of the comments made at the forum Nifong attended (and was criticized for attending), and also from the comment in Newsweek cover article, I would say that some of those who have come forward to represent NCCU have acted poorly and spoken hastily. Some, namely their newspaper editor, from my recollection, have not. Some who have come forward from Duke, in public media forums, have, dare I say, acted in a manner that is anything but boorish. Ultimately though, none of these students are, or should be, considered poster children for their respective schools, as both schools are diverse communities of several thousand. I would say that the Duke lax team members represent the Duke lax teams and nothing more. Therefore characterizations of "Duke students are. . . . . . .and Duke is. . . . .and even Duke Athletics are. . . .is disingenuous to even discussions of the behavior of the lax team as a whole, and the alleged participants in this alleged event in particular. I respect greatly your opinions on the particulars of the case itself, and I would much rather read well-informed posts on that, rather than spiteful comments about the men's basketball coach or Brodhead's sensitivity to public censure.

    The copy of motion contains what seems to be Sgt Shelton's handwritten report of events. It is dated 4/9/06, which does present some problems, in my mind. It says (page 20 and 21 of the PDF):
    Once at Duke, I spoke to the female who was now cooperative. She told me that she worked as a stripper ... [no allegation of anything so far] She said that they left and got into ""Nikki's" car. At that time she said that someone from the party wanted them to come back into the house. She said that "Nikki" wanted to go back inside but that she did not. She said that she and "Nikki" got into an argument about going back inside. She said that at that point some of the guys pulled her from the car and "groped" her. She told me that no one had forced her to have sex. She then mentioned that someone had taken her money. ... [Shelton returns to question the AV] She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her in the bathroom.


    Bob wrote:
    So with Sgt. Shelton, how many versions are we up to?
    It's hard to tell - but what's interesting is that Nifong failed to mention the earlier line-up (or line-ups). Possible reasons include the obvious lack of identification of Evans, but it also may be that with the earlier "practice" ID, the emotional reaction to Finnerty that the AV is alleged to have had, might now be viewed in a different light. Aside from the legal problems of having only the lacrosse team pictures, the other thing that baffles me is the process used in the last line-up. By asking the AV to ID people at the party (not just the alleged assailants) she is likely to have made mistakes (per the defense). Thus, the defense will mimic the prosecution and ask the AV point-out people in the courtroom she ID'd in the line-ups. Then, if she has ID'd people who weren't at the party (the defense claims that she ID'd some people who were away for various reasons) then the prosecution has provided the vehicle for the defense to demonstrate that her ID's may be wrong. Certainly not an inspiring performance by the Durham Police force or the DA.

    IMHO wrote: Have they leaked Bissey's and Roberts' police statements? Bissey's already made public statements about what he heard and saw with them out at the car. Roberts has talked about her exchanges with party attendees. Neither mentioned the AV being pulled out of the car and groped. But you're right about Roberts. Maybe she gave an entirely different statement about what happened at the car to the police. Or maybe she gave an amended statement after she got representation. The AV told Sgt. Shelton that she wasn't raped but she was pulled out of a car and groped. So, IMHO, is your position that she lied when she said she was pulled out of the car and groped but hadn't been raped, or is your position that she was pulled out of the car and groped but lied when she said she wasn't raped? +++ Regarding whether or not the AV said she was raped by 20 men, that hasn't been debunked. We know that the source of the story was a Duke police officer who overheard a Durham cop. We haven't seen any statements by the cops at the hospital. Did the cop lie or mishear what was said? I haven't seen any proof of that. Have you?

    IMHO wrote: felony assault with a deadly weapon on a government official, is a serious offense, I wonder why it was plead to a misdemeanor? I wonder too. I hope the court records are opened up when the AV is charged with filing false charges against the three indictees.

    I am all for the rights of the accused, but whatever happened to the privacy rights of the raped? Maybe it is a good defense strategy, but after Kobe trashing his victim, I am getting sick of it.

    I deleted some comments in this thread that became two commenters sniping at each other. Please stay on the duke case and try to be civil. Thanks.

    Gag order sought in lacrosse case
    DURHAM -- A lawyer with the state NAACP said the civil rights organization intends to seek a gag order in the Duke lacrosse case, and a journalist who participated in a forum with him on Wednesday said media coverage of the alleged rape may deprive the alleged victim of her legal rights to a fair trial.


    Here's a new thread for the weekend addressing the new lineup disclosures today and the initial police report that says the accuser first told police she had been groped and not raped. Comments are closing here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Defense Seeks Accuser's Descr (none / 0) (#104)
    by cpinva on Fri May 26, 2006 at 07:39:49 PM EST
    Personal attack deleted.