Some people here claim that if you question the AV's mental health in the wake of her past and in the wake of the disconnectedness of her version of events from what seems to be known then you are casting aspersions against all women, or all African Americans or all rape victims.

A police "Event Report" provided in discovery reflects that nearly an hour passed while the complainant was in Ofcr. Barfield's custody between Kroger, Durham Access Center (site of initial accusation) and arrival at Duke ER.

Adopting the men's motto of "No Excuses, No Regrets" and writing on wristbands the numbers of three indicted classmates, the Blue Devils lost 11-10 to Northwestern in overtime in the national semifinal

He may be rusty, he may have underestimated the scrutiny he and his office would be under, he may think that he can still play by the old rules and get by.

JUDGMENT Both personally and professionally, I have always been a person on whom the community could rely to make the right decisions for this office and for this community: decisions that further the cause of justice. That is why, for example, I voluntarily gave open-file discovery to defendants twenty years before the law required it: it was the right thing to do. Doing the right thing is not only the best practice in principle, but it is usually also the most economical process in the long run, and you can count on me to continue to do so.

Took 2 overtimes, though, imho. Do you have any problem with them writing Seligman, Finnerty and Evans' jersey #s on their wristbands? I thought it a nice compromise.

Forgive me, imho, but I would take ANY political candidate's comments with a few grains of salt, but heck, even Kerry Sutton supposedly went to the polls wearing a Nifong t-shirt.

"It was not until the police decided to involuntarily commit her that she changed her account."

PB, thanks for not asking to interrupt my schedule. I have no schedule here, though.

A politician lying on his campaign website, imho? Shocking suggestion, I know. How about "not a lie but not exactly the whole truth, either," or "he really believes he is as fair to defendants as he says he is, and always has been"? Now all he needs to do to make me believe in his fairness is stop playing hide the evidence.

imho: how about saying it this way then: it was not until she knew they were going to involuntarily commit her that she changed her story.

Good night all. My boy graduates from HS in the morning. Then he'll magically change into a man and go off to play a "helmet sport" at a predominantly white, elite university.

He, too, hangs out with some boys, some of whom are teammates, who can be rude, crude, boorish, insular, cocky, smug, and stupid. Make it Penn football instead of Duke lacrosse, and he'd have been at the party.

who believes that the AV is telling the truth?

I answer yes, I think she could still be telling the truth.

So, Bob, to answer your question, does anyone still believe the AV? I answer yes, I think she could still be telling the truth.

The fact that someone from the hospital ran out to tell him she DID say she was raped while he was making the phone call strongly suggests a "communicational gaffe."

Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the SANE doctor that she had been raped.

Posted by azbballfan May 26, 2006 11:06 PM Sharon wrote: Good night all. My boy graduates from HS in the morning. Then he'll magically change into a man and go off to play a "helmet sport" at a predominantly white, elite university. Wow He, too, hangs out with some boys, some of whom are teammates, who can be rude, crude, boorish, insular, cocky, smug, and stupid. Make it Penn football instead of Duke lacrosse, and he'd have been at the party. Congratulations on your son's accomplishments. Certainly you are a proud mother who raised her son in her image. Congratulations to Duke for passing along such a rich tradition. We hope he makes Ben Franklin proud.

It has everything to do with how I can look at Evans, Seligman, and Finnerty, and see my son.

No one knows and no one has said who threw the first salvo of racist insults. Kim supposedly made derogatory comments about their white manhood...why is that not racist? Why is one insult OK and the other not?

again, absolutely no, none, zip, nada, forensic evidence, released to this point, tying either the three indicted, or anyone attending that party, to the accuser, in any way.

Also Friday, a lawyer who said he represents a lacrosse player not charged in the case said he wants the Durham Police Department to conduct an internal investigation into a poster and flyers that he says unfairly implied all 46 members of the lacrosse team were guilty of rape.

PB: if you wish, I will dredge up my posts where I say that I have both empathy and sympathy for the AV.

... I would like to think that I would [among other things] not allow myself blindly to believe my daughter in the face of all the information which has come to light to the contrary. I would like to think that I would be more concerned about how damaged my daughter must be, how much help she must need and how to get it for her if, and I stress IF, she had brought false charges for some reason.

I fail to see, PB, how my post had anything to do with how "Lady Justice" should view the case.

I fail to understand why people who say they are left and liberal ( and I have major creds there) can be so prejudiced.

The second glaring error is that the officer says he only used photos of those believed to be at the party. He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party. This may be the most egregious error, as I've written before. First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers. Second, there are no foils.

Sharon wrote: Interesting comments, too, by the responding officer: that he put smelling salts under her nose and her reaction indicated to him that she was not really unconscious or out of it as she seemed.

So she was being dishonest about that too?

I've been watching this thread(s) for over a month and while I've been tempted to post many times, I've refrained from doing so until now. Why now? Well, PB's comments regarding Sharon's son for one

and his suggestion that the defense's alternative story regarding the forensic evidence that links Dave Evan's to the AV is "less likely". Is it really?

Possible DNA match of fingernail skin does not prove crime.

The police officer, Sgt Shelton, never uses those words. All he says in his report is:

She was unconscious.

Later he determines that she is not by her reaction to the ammonia capsule:

When I used it, the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious.

Perhaps you could show us where the words you post as a quotation appear?

The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else's car.

The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person. When asked whether the woman needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed out drunk."

First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers.

He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party.

I heard it on the 911 tape.

Quoting from TL

The second glaring error is that the officer says he only used photos of those believed to be at the party. He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party. This may be the most egregious error, as I've written before. First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers. Second, there are no foils.

Unless the captains are lying there were at least 5 foils and if anyone left before the accuser arrived, there would have been even more foils

I don't think you are paying attention to the fingernail evidence, Cpinva. It is in fact forensic evidence that ties the accuser to Evans. The likelihood that dna found on (or is it under) that fingernail came from Evans is substantial, and is precisely what would be predicted by her story.

The transcript does not identify the officer as Sgt Shelton. Does the tape identify the officer who is speaking as Sgt Shelton?

So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?"

If the AV selected any of the Lacrosse team "foils"; those "foils" that were id'd by the AV have to prove they were not there and/or left before the AV arrived; and with Nifong saying he may have a different timeline the "foils" who did leave before the AV arrived will have a hard job proving his innocence.

But he said that when she arrived about 9 p.m., he noticed nothing unusual about her demeanor.

After their arrival, he and his daughter took a short car ride about 10 p.m. to a neighborhood convenience store

Taylor and his passenger were flagged down by a man outside 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. awaiting their arrival.

The man who drove the accuser in the Duke University lacrosse case to the team party said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night.

B, i'm afraid it's you who aren't paying attention to the evidence.

"consistent with" is not, by any stretch, the "same as". especially not with DNA.

I have zero confidence in the driver's own story. He claims they left for the party at 10:45, yet why did the accuser receive two cell calls while they were on their way?

He [the driver] said that all he could tell investigators was about their visit and the drive to the house, which he had difficulty finding.

I think its quite possible he's just hiding behind the wall because he's worried society will McFadyen him. And that shame has nothing to do with it.

It's interesting. She may have actually been passed out drunk, but it sounds like at some point she was faking it.

The man who drove the accuser in the Duke University lacrosse case to the team party said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night.

Hicht, if you think that the attendees at the party were lying about her being intoxicated then why do you think that there was no toxicology test done? Why wasn't someone charged with drugging her?

She said that some of the guys from the party pulled her from the vehicle and groped her. She told me that no one forced her to have sex. She then mentioned that someone had taken her money. I walked to the parking lot to call the watch commander and let him know that she had recanted her rape allegation. Witin a few minutes I was told that she told the SANE doctor that she had been raped. I called the watch commander back and told him she had changed her story back to being raped. I returned to the room where she was and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bathroom.

"She just told me her name would be in the news.."

The other dancer admitted the accuser drank at the party and the officers at Kroger thought she was drunk. I don't think what the defense has suggested is out of sync with what we have so far.

One other thing about this drivers statement. Who was taking care of the kids if they needed picking up? Were the kids alone?

From Driver article, when he picked her up...

"She just told me her name would be in the news.."

Rather lucid prediction at 7am.

Taylor did not hear from her again until 7 a.m. the next day. She was at Duke Hospital.

"She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids."

He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later.

"She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said.

I think it is possible, and not unlikely from the evidence gathered so far. Just because we never heard before that she'd been groped doesn't mean she wsn't or couldn't have been.

It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex

The man who drove her to 610 Buchanan was one of the 3 whose DNA was found in her.

It's intersting that the driver got lost finding 610 N. Broad. Evidently, there isn't an easily visible number on the house and the street numbering "system" is odd within the block.

This may explain why Seligmann directed the cab to meet him at the intersection, rather than at the house.

In a written statement to the defense also reviewed by ABC, a cabdriver confirms picking up Seligmann and a friend a block and a half from the party, and driving them to the bank.

The man who drove her to 610 Buchanan was one of the 3 whose DNA was found in her.

If Nifong had a smoking gun he would not hold it back. He would let it be known....to comfort the community, get witnesses to come forward, strike a plea bargin and even stop the criticism. Prosecutors have been guilty of over the years for holding back exculpatory evidence, not incriminating evidence.

"She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids." He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later. "She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said. He said he did not check on the accuser's children or tell her parents where she was. "I told her I would, but I didn't," he said. "I don't know her that well."

My theory: She was not drunk, not deceptive; she was traumatized. She did not change her story. She was telling it in sequence and had not gotten to the bathroom part yet. Shelton misunderstood her.

She told me that no one forced her to have sex.

It would be interesting to go back and find out initial descriptions of the AV's career in the sex industry, who the sources were, and how they sync up to the driver's version of things.

The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.

"It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.

This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said.

Margaret,

It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex

I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore"

Taylor did not hear from her again until 7 a.m. the next day. She was at Duke Hospital.

"She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids."

He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later.

"She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said.

I read it as refering to the morning as the article seems to speak in terms of the first morning, but there is some wiggle room for the second conversation.

The woman who says she was raped last week by three members of the Duke University lacrosse team thought she would be dancing for five men at a bachelor party, she said Friday. But when she arrived that night, she found herself surrounded by more than 40.

I read Margaret's comment to more in the light of the driver doing her a favor and she appreciates it because it saved her $20-$30, she showered, she had a fashion show, allowed her to continue hiding her career from dad and she had sex willingly.

I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore"

Does one make more sense than the other - about seven hours after the alleged rape or "more than a week later?"

It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex

I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore."

Your interpretation of the post reveals your attitude and insults the AV/FA.

I read Margaret's comment to more in the light of the driver doing her a favor and she appreciates it because it saved her $20-$30, she showered, she had a fashion show, allowed her to continue hiding her career from dad and she had sex willingly.

Far from me to disparage a rape victim, but the visit to the driver's home and the shower before leaving could possibly mean a sex "date" similiar to the ones she has at hotels.

It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex.

I agreed with you in my prior post that it could be read both ways. I see one, you see the other. Ease off the caffine, don't go cold turkey.

If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money.

Once again, I'm with Hicht.

If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money.