They weren't tested because she wasn't accusing them of rape. Just the "wealthy" Duke boys. And maybe she felt she owed it to the drivers for her share of the gas.

In light of the new information that came out on Fox, do people here think

That's what I was thinking about Kali's friend who gets "freebies" from the prostitute that so impressed Kali.

I will remain a little skeptical while we are only hearing one side of the story.

Whatever.....I have more respect for a high priced call girl with 4 clients who put herself through Columbia Law School, than someone like you, who as more and more of the truth comes out against your beloved AV/FA, feels the need to turn your self-hatred against me and others like a child who is not getting his way.

Maybe if you got out of the house more, instead of searching the internet for hours to build you "library" of past comments, old photographs and snippets about commentators you would find pleasure in the beauty of the real world not a virtual one.

I don't think a motion to dismiss will be granted: in theory, all Nifong needs is the AV's story.

But at the end of the day this is a he said / she said case. And if the jury believes the AV on the stand, that may be all that Nifong needs to come out of this thing with at least one and possibly more convictions under his belt. Absent the AV refusing to testify, Nifong has a strong enough case to go to trial and have a shot at winning.

I can't recall another case where a group accused was treated as one Guilty entity. Read the early coverage of this story in the media and you'll see a story of a monolithic group with shared guilt and shared lawlessness.

Teresa: Nifong has no such obligation. DA's decline to prosecute ALL THE TIME when they decide that there is insufficient evidence to secure a conviction.

do you agree a Jury in a racially charged atmosphere with people shouting "Dead Man Walking" and Black Panthers marching on the City and University, that the case should not go forward if that evidence exists?

It should be noted that there were no positive toxicology tests in this case partly because sexual assault kits at that time did not include urine (they do now for all of Los Angeles County) and partly because of the time factor (victims reporting beyond the possible time limit of 12 hours for getting a GHB positive)

But from the legal standpoint, GHB will disappear more rapidly from the body than alcohol does. You are literally looking at 12 hours in order to document--there is an unknown chemical in the person's blood or in the person's urine and, therefore, making it very difficult to preserve the chain of custody and to record evidence that a crime has been committed.

A new, faster, easier urine test has been developed for detection of GHB. The test is also more precise. As it stands right now, to detect GHB in the urine in higher than naturally occurring levels, rape victims have to get to a hospital within 12 hours, as GHB does not stay in the system longer.Current testing for GHB is a painstaking effort. It requires several milliliters of urine and a whole day's work for a lab tech. The new test takes about three hours and only needs a few drops of urine.

I agree it would take a courageous judge to dismiss, but there would be grounds. The photo ID array didn't follow the state's Actual Innocence Project guidelines. These are guidelines and not mandatory, but if a judge suppressed the photo ID, there would no longer be a case, since that's the sole linkage between the defendants and any "crime."

I'm just not used to good people changing like that.

Nifong is in politics. Everybody in politics has some kind of psychological disorder; this is from personal experience. Everybody in politics is "good" until they are not.

I am on record proud of being callous to this False Accuser. She committed a crime by falsely accusing three men and ruining their lives. She should and she will suffer. The more the better.

But there is the AV. ... If the jury finds the AV credible and believes a rape occured, a big part of Nifong's job is done.

Nifong is doing his best to try the case by the book. Just with the AV's testimony and physical evidence, he has the duty to present this evidence to a jury.

If the defense has exculpatory evidence they insist the prosecution should consider, MAIL IT. Certainly, the defense team has unspoken stipulations for providing this evidence outside of the court mandated disclosure rules.

The Blue Wall of Shame continues. They tried to separate the cases and will prove unsuccessful. They have filed motions to delay the case and certainly will blame the DA for these delays.

Was there no tox test taken or was it taken and buried because she had crack or blow or heroin in her system.

I could do an entire case study on azbballfan by your comments alone. Silence does not equal lying.

I realize that this is a foundation of your worldview but step back from the ledge. There is and never was a blue wall of silence. Just a bunch of stupid dumb kids who listened to the parents and got their constitutional protected rights to counsel.

"We were asked to keep (the case at a low-profile) because it may hamper the investigation," Lennis Harris said. "But that's not going to happen anymore. This is going to stay in the public eye if I have to stand on a street corner myself with a sign."

Was there no tox test taken or was it taken and buried because she had crack or blow or heroin in her system.

Red Light Wall of Silence

Another random thought--I wonder if there has been some kind of custody battle for the kids. Not the dad necessarily, but perhaps his mother or other family member who doesn't think the AV is a fit mom. That might explain why she was so terrified of being sent to the substance abuse/psych unit.

Here's a random thought - maybe the reason Read was calling his girlfriend during the rape is because he was angry with her and wanted her to hear him getting oral sex from a stripper?

As to the dumb remark it's obvious you haven't been at a university lately where higher education doesn't not preclude stupidity.

As long as the "drunken frat boys" prosecution is allowed in the court of public opinion, I like the balance of the crack head speculation.

And, PB: want to name one single time when any of the players have invoked their fifth amendment rights?

lefty, You made my point. They were not blamed for a rape. They deserved to be blamed for their other behavior. They were a band of brothers, a team. Did the team or anyone on the team appologize for the racist remarks or deny them? 43 of those team members decided not to cooperate with the police. They deserved the blame for that decision. Two weeks afterwards team members were seen at a bar drinking shots and shouting "Duke lacrosse" - showing a callous indifference to the allegation of rape. They acted like a team, so they were treated as a team.

Here's a random thought - maybe the reason Read was calling his girlfriend during the rape is because he was angry with her and wanted her to hear him getting oral sex from a stripper?

The quantity RS's phone calls is unusual. More likely than calling his gf while having oral sex is that he was calling to figure out what he should do -- having witnessed some disturbing stuff. In the end he chose to leave prior to the taxi arriving -- the taxi picking him 1.5 blocks down the road.

shame on those members of the media who automatically assumed guilt,

It's because THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMING FORWARD

Let's hope the NSA has it on tape.

Lawyers said the private lab also found tissue "consistent" with Evans' bodily makeup under one of the dancer's fake acrylic fingernails, which was retrieved from a trashcan. However, attorneys insisted the fingernail evidence was inconclusive and did not constitute proof of a rape anyway.

More likely . . .is that he was calling to figure out what he should do -- having witnessed some disturbing stuff.

Kali, what's happened to your sense of humor?

The drivers say in police statements that they brought the accuser to at least five separate gigs the weekend before the alleged attack, defense sources said. According to the sources, the papers handed over by Nifong also reveal that the forensic nurse who did a gynecological exam on the accuser did not find abrasions, tears or bleeding in the vaginal area, which is often present in forcible rapes. They say she did find swelling in the vaginal area along with tenderness in the accuser's breasts and lower right quadrant

I suspect that one reason Nifong refused to meet was that he did not want there to be "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that he had exculpatory evidence in hand but did not present it to the grand jury.

A substantial portion of the Sexual Assault Exam Report

He easily could have just said he thought the same thing about the girl who put her self through law school turning tricks, instead specifically referencing me.

Orinoco, imho is talking abt the high-priced call girl whose glam lifestyle was described several threads ago. Putting herself through Columbia law, or something. She had a very limited number of steady clients whom she saw on a regular, scheduled basis. Kali's friend got "freebies." I believe he said his hat was off to her. Not quite the same thing as going on one-on-one "dates" for Bunny Hole Entertainment, but I guess it's like Churchill said, we're all whores, just with different prices. Or something like that. I think it was Churchill.

He likes to stir it up for no apparent reason and claim innocence. Don't buy his BS statement that he meant nothing by it, IMHO is very, very calculated in all his posts. As Dean Wormer said, "He is a sneaky little sh*t just like Niedermeyer."

If you had followed the details of this case, maybe you wouldn't have believed such ludicrous things like "the jury would find her credible".

In an effort to discourage the man, she told him she was having her period, but the man told her to remove her tampon, which she did. The man then let go of her neck, and she saw the knife as he switched it from one hand to the other. He grabbed her neck again and put her legs over his shoulders...He raped her, and told her she was a 'good girl.'

After she was calm enough, she told them what happened. They called the police, and later her stepmother took her to a hospital. An examination disclosed no trace evidence. Later that day, M.M. met with a sheriff's sketch artist and gave her a detailed description.

Here, the jury could assess whether it was likely that M.M. could see her attacker's face at 6:45 a.m. in January, given defense evidence that the sun did not rise until nearly 8:00 a.m. that morning.

Cheatam also points out that M.M. described her assailant as having no facial hair. He relies on evidence that he had a goatee at the time of the rape. ..While Cheatam argues that this evidence [videotape] establishes that he had facial hair at the time of the rape, it instead shows that if he had a goatee there was a question about how noticeable it was.

Since you are snark on, 24/7 365 how is this any revelation?

He likes to stir it up for no apparent reason and claim innocence. Don't buy his BS statement that he meant nothing by it, IMHO is very, very calculated in all his posts. As Dean Wormer said, "He is a sneaky little sh*t just like Niedermeyer."

Two points: a. This case is never going to trial. b. To entertain even the possibility of the jury believing this nutcase is ludicrous.

Where did I say that. I said Nifong should have asked the suspect to come with his counsel for a preindictment meeting. Listen and contemplate. No statue of limitation was about to run what was the hurry? Oh yeah the election.

Completely unrelated and irrelevant Dead Horse trotting!

That's what a Motion to Dismiss is for.

To entertain even the possibility of the jury believing this nutcase is ludicrous.

The case chew2 offered is strong evidence that anything is possible. It's far from irrelevant.

CARLSON: Wait. There's no footnote in the police report. This is the sum total of this officer's--and this is not an officer a week after the fact or three months after the fact. This is a guy, night of, one of the very first people to speak to the alleged victim after the alleged attack occurred. And here's take away from that, where she said 20 men raped her.

Chew, if the Cheatham girl were menstruating, might menstrual fluid wash away material?

Chew, if the Cheatham girl were menstruating, might menstrual fluid wash away material?

One thing I don't get about this whole situation- can't the defense just waive their right to a jury trial? The only way their clients have any chance of going down is for Nifong to assemble a racist, bitter, jury out for settling scores rather than metting out justice. No judge would ever convict these kis.

IMHO said:

Here's a random thought - maybe the reason Read was calling his girlfriend during the rape is because he was angry with her and wanted her to hear him getting oral sex from a stripper?

and you think his girlfriend would not get angry and decide to retaliate by telling the police about this?

Nifong said, "If there was a toxicology report available, it would've been included...". What would make the tox report unavailable?

If the judge is in any sense fair or ethical, it's an automatic not guilty

A tox report takes two months? ha!

If a urine sample was taken, it is not too late to test it.

If a urine sample was taken, it is not too late to test it.

Yes, it is now. Tests must be perfomed within 12 hours or the sample will degrade and be useless.

It appears that the window of detection of GHB is very short in both blood and urine, and therefore its presence is very difficult to prove after a rape case. In order to document single exposure, we investigated the use of hair. Hair was collected one month after the allegated event in order to sample the corresponding period after regular growing.

This study demonstrates that a single exposure to GHB in a case of sexual assault can be documented by hair analysis when collected about one month after the crime.

I don't practice criminal law (nor do I practice law criminally), so maybe both of us, or neither of us, is all that familiar with the ins and outs (perhaps an unfortunate wording, in this case) of criminal practice.

Oh Lordy, we're down in her crotch again.

no I don't think he should. He must have pretty tough skin to continue with this though.

Do you want a law and order republican judge who is normally hard on defendants or a more liberal judge who is better for defendants but may be more prone to believe the AV?

The urine has to be collected from the patient within 12 hours, but testing on the sample need not take place within 12 hours. In this study they tested samples that had been stored at room temperature for 6 months.

I think you guys are right and you can waive a jury trial in NC. I just read the constitution for the state and it say so.

the parties in any civil case may waive the right to have the issues determined by a jury

In superior court all criminal trials in which the defendant enters a plea of not guilty must be tried before a jury.

I guess I shouldn't believe everything I see on TV.

Thanks Chew. So does this mean the guy was right and they can't waive this right and have only a judge?

If the AV had been admitted to the drunk tank I'm sure the first thing done there would have been a test to see what's in her system. You wouldn't want to just lock someone up if they're loaded up with a dangerous combination of booze and drugs.

In my past efforts in searching for actual early interviews and direct quotes from Nifong, I had trouble finding anything more than a few small sets of identical quotes.

How about in an intoxicated person's crisis center?

I believe they can even freeze a urine sample somehow to maintain its testability.

In any event, the reports will indicate how many vials/samples were taken, if any. And if the hospital filled a vial or utilized any medical supplies they put is in the report to justify reimbursement from either Medicaid or Medicare for it. Even if, Bunny Hole Entertainment or NCCU provided her health insurance, anything used and any service performed will be noted and billed with substantiation.

Prosecutors have found SANEs to be credible witnesses in court as a result oftheir extensive experience and expertise in conducting evidentiary exams. The Director of a Wisconsin SANE program reported that during a 31/2-year period, they had a 100-percent conviction rate in cases where a SANE testified at trial.

They document assault details, perform medical exams and testing, and collect time-sensitive evidence. Since 1998, state [MA] public health officials say, nurse examiners have testified in 45 sexual assault trials, 98 percent of which ended in convictions.

So you don't think the test took two months.

Are you saying the Nifong waited 2 months before even starting the test?

How dumb do you think we are?

oh, btw, if the Nifong is indeed examing the urine now, the SANE exam would have "pending" on it. And it doesn't.

We know from the AV that the lacrosse players didn't wear condoms. We just don't know if it's three or twenty players.

I ignored you when I thought you were a real person.

I like sockpuppets.

That said, the team should play on. Hire the kid's dad from Hofstra to do things the right way.

I Have to say the more facts I find out about this case the more I am disturbed. I am as liberal minded as they get but this is getting to hard to swollow. So far the Victim was reported passed out drunk on the night of the alleged attack by the officers [one officer](Not a problem). But the other Dancer initially said [she thought] nothing happened then changed her mind [opinion] and called a PR firm in the process to her spin her story. The Victim first claimed that 20 students did this to her [has this been confirmed?]then changed it to three. One of three had only 7 minutes to be there and the times don't match up to even allow him to do this [using the defense's timeline] A cab driver can say on the record that the boy was in his Cab. What did the cops do when they heard this?? They arrested the Cab Driver. The other person she identified with 90% accuracy never had a mustache [that is yet to be determined] and she said if he had one the she would have been 100% sure it was him. The DNA tests came back negative [inconclusive for David Evans] and suggested she had sex with her boyfriend but none of the accused. Add to this to the fact that she already made this charge about being raped by three people some 10 years ago and you have a full fledged circus. How many people have been unfortunate enough to be raped by 3 men two different times in life? what are the odds? [what are the odds the player she says, with 90% certainty, strangled her, happened to be the only player who can not be eliminated as the source of DNA on her fingernail?]. I am all for a fair trial and I am as open minded as anyone I know but I can not in good conscience believe this Victim. How many pieces of information am I suppose to disregard [how about as many as you have blindly accepted?]. I think the District Attourney is forcing her to stand by this misguided charge so he does't embarrass himself. My prayers are with every party involved in this disgrace. In a country where we are supposed to be free we send people off to war, put citzens in danger, and thanks to a disturbed legal system allow DA's like this one to run a campaign for office on the coat tails of a Racial hot button topic instead of looking at all the facts. I say lets get the charges right before we make them and Al Gore in 2008!!!!

imho, does that mean you agree with the go Al part? :)

Everybody in politics has some kind of psychological disorder; this is from personal experience.

After spending what he estimates were more than 40 hours speaking with reporters about the Duke case, Nifong stopped granting interviews on April 3. He has said very little about the case since then.

FILAN: And before you answer that, let me just jump to Larry for one second. Larry, we know that blood was drawn at the hospital. We also believe right or wrong, but we believe based on what Yale is telling us that there aren't going to be toxicology results. Can we still get them now from that blood that was drawn that night?

KOBILINSKY: I don't think so. First all, these drugs once they enter the body, they're metabolized and you don't see that same chemical in the blood and all we have are tubes of blood that have been collected for DNA and for serological testing. What we should have looked at--what they should have looked at is urine because up to 72 hours you can do tests to look for the breakdown products of these drugs. That would have worked.

Among people 12 and older, about 83.5% of the US population is white, and 82.5% of rape victims are white; 13.3% of victims are black, compared to 12.3% of the population; and 4.2% of both victims and the population are of other races. [2000 NCVS.] Blacks are about 10% more likely to be attacked than whites. In 2000, there were 1.1 victimizations per 1,000 white people, and 1.2 victimizations per 1,000 black people. [2000 NCVS.]

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5%--one out of twenty-- of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free

*******************,

thanks for the endorsement.

but i'm well aware that sockpuppets don't vote.

But he is hardly a "little skinny one." He is 6ft 3 weighs about 225 pounds and although slender, he has very broad shoulders.

13 Collin Finnerty ATTACK 6-3 175 So. Garden City, N.Y. (Chaminade)

Finnerty has the best alibi of all. He did not go to the party at all. Between 11/30 and 12/30, the time of the alleged rape he was at a Mexican restaurant several miles away.

He has 6 witnesses including the waiter who remember him at the restaurant. He has a time stamped food order the restaurant uses. He paid with an American Express card and the receipt is time stamped.

Finnerty's lawyer said his client was at a restaurant several blocks away when the women were dancing.

Finnerty contends he was at a Mexican restaurant near Ninth Street, several blocks from 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., where the party and alleged rape occurred.

Bill Thomas, a lawyer for a player who has not been charged, said one of the two men under indictment did not even attend the party, though he did not specify which one, saying only that "multiple witnesses and a commercial transaction" would provide an alibi.

Another attorney, Robert Ekstrand, who represents dozens of players, though not Seligmann or Finnerty, told the AP neither was at the party "at the relevant time."

Has the backlash begun? Is Animal House undergoing its final demolition?

It's risky to read too much into the prison sentence handed down to Michigan State Spartans defensive back Cole Corey after he was convicted on a sexual assault charge last week, but one can sense the tide turning. Athletes who run amok aren't being winked at any more.

All of this may have been on the mind of Lewanee County (MI) Circuit Court Judge Harvey Koselka when he sentenced Corey, a 5-11, 209-pound third-year sophomore listed as a possible starter at the "bandit" position in MSU's defensive backfield, to 2-10 years in prison -- a punishment that actually far exceeded the state's sentencing guidelines.

Corey's crime actually dated back to high school, when he and a classmate at Tecumseh High in Adrian (not far from Ann Arbor) plied a 17-year-old female classmate with tequila and Ecstasy and then had sex with her repeatedly over several hours. Koselka called this act "horrific," and threw the book at Corey, even though he had cooperated with authorities in building a case against his track coach, Matthew Peterson, who was later convicted of holding "anything-goes" parties for his favored team members

I keep wanting to ask irrelevant questions of all of you here, like this one: if it were you, or a loved one of yours, who was being prosecuted on the basis of what we "know" now, how would that sit with you?

People are prosecuted all the time. Compared to 99% of the people charged with serious crimes, these people have nothing to worry about, even if guilty. So if I were a defendant or a parent of a defendant, I wouldn't spend much time wallowing in self-pity.