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Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, Not Rape

Unbelievable. According to an early police report describing an interview with the accuser in the duke lacrosse alleged rape case, the accuser said she was groped but not sexually assaulted.

It was not until the police decided to involuntarily commit her that she changed her account.

There also was an earlier lineup one week after the incident in which she failed to identify Dave Evans.

A handwritten narrative report by Sgt. J.C. Shelton that is attached to the motion says the accuser first reported being raped after officers had decided to involuntary commit her. She then reportedly told officers that she was groped by some of the men who pulled her from a car, but was not forced to have sex.

According to Shelton, the accuser then told a doctor examining her for evidence of rape that she had been raped.

On the lineups, there was one on March 16, one on March 21 and the last one on April 4. On March 16, right days after the incident, she failed to identify Evans. Even on April 4, as to Dave Evans, she still isn't sure:

"He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me, sort of."

It was after this last uncertain id that Nifong indicted Evans.

Dave Evans' discovery motion is here (pdf).

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    A few things from the motion and the exhibits: Apparently, a lot of missing reports from various police officers, notably the other two officers who took the AV to the crisis center and then to Duke Medical, no report from the crisis center, no narrative report from the investigator who ran the different photo arrays (March 16(?), March 21, and April 4). Another note: "in-training" sexual assault nurse examiner. Wonder how close she is to being fully certified, wonder how many intake exams she's done. The motion states that the report has 17 sections, or "Steps," but only #1, 2, 10, 11 and 17 were provided. Four cell phones "retrieved" but only two were shown in search warrant inventory; tests done on three phones; spreadsheet data recovery for only two phones, neither of which were the ones listed on the warrant inventory; and no report from the police tech who worked with the phones. March 21: AV brought to the station by her "driver" asking about "getting her property back." (Their quotation marks, not mine.) Interesting.

    District Attorney Nifong not available for comment.

    Bob in Pacifica, You wrote:
    Some people here claim that if you question the AV's mental health in the wake of her past and in the wake of the disconnectedness of her version of events from what seems to be known then you are casting aspersions against all women, or all African Americans or all rape victims.
    I've been reading this board pretty carefully and haven't noticed anybody saying that. I know you have a policy against looking through posts for source materials that might support your claims, so I won't ask you to interrupt your schedule to do that. I do think that this is not the first time that you have created a phantom enemy to slay out of whole cloth. It's not a style of argument worthy of respect. 7Duke4, On golf: The most resources for the least people at the greatest expense for the least exercise. What more needs to be said about golf.

    As far as the "missing" evidence goes, i'm a little confused. Was it evidence that was never gathered in the first place, was never turned over to Nifong for review, or was just not turned over as part of discovery? Were the various reports known to have been taken/given over to Nifong, or is it just conjecture that those reports should have been taken/made? Same for the SANE steps. Were they ever taken at all, or were they just not turned over to/by Nifong? I wonder of one of the sections should have been a tox screen.

    thinkandtalk: I've discussed this with imho before. Until a report is reduced to writing, and turned over to the DA, no technical discovery violation. Some prosecutors use this to keep things from the defense as long as they can. For example: if an investigator interviews a witness but doesn't take any notes, he can tell the DA what the witness said, but that information will not be turned over in discovery: the DA can know things the defense does not as a result. Prosecutorial sleight of hand, sometimes. Or, the police will have one cop write a narrative talking about what other cops did (as may be the case here with a 49 page report from one of the investigators), and not have the other cops write anything up until forced to memorialize what they did in writing. It is not unusual, not exactly unethical, but it does fly in the face of the intent and purpose of the discovery rules.

    Right right. . but could such gaps be legitimately attributed to procedural errors prior to the case dropping into Nifong's hands?

    As far as the SANE report: even if a step was not taken, there should still be written comments as to why it was not, at least a box checked, something like that, and supposedly the defense did have that section of the report: sample taken but no tests run. According to Fox, anyway.

    This is almost a carbon copy of the Kobe Bryant issue and he somewhat admitted something happened. The Most Glaring Simillarity is the DA's. At first DA for the Kobe Case DA Hurlbert was appointed DA and later elected knew when to hang them up. Lack of Clear Convincing Evidence. This happened 2 months prior to his winning the DA spot in Lakeview,CO.. However DA Nifong was elected to the DA seat and he too has no clear evidence. It's gotten to the point of a media wrestle with the victims rights group as a springboard for justice. It seems like everyday this drags on and on. I don't know whether to feel sorry or contempt for DA Nifong. My Glaring Opinion,The Case is turning really Stupid.

    A police "Event Report" provided in discovery reflects that nearly an hour passed while the complainant was in Ofcr. Barfield's custody between Kroger, Durham Access Center (site of initial accusation) and arrival at Duke ER.
    But no written report from him. To me, this is much more of a "blue wall of silence" than the Duke players' reluctance to talk to the cops.

    Northwestern too tough for Duke women
    Adopting the men's motto of "No Excuses, No Regrets" and writing on wristbands the numbers of three indicted classmates, the Blue Devils lost 11-10 to Northwestern in overtime in the national semifinal
    .

    One thing that I have not seen mentioned here before is that, despite all his years as a prosecutor and his experience with felony cases, Nifong for the past 6-7 years has been handling mostly administrative matters and traffic related crimes (DUI, etc.) A lot has changed in the trying of cases in that time, not the least of which is the emergence of 24 hour news, Court TV, and the like. He may be rusty, he may have underestimated the scrutiny he and his office would be under, he may think that he can still play by the old rules and get by.

    Took 2 overtimes, though, imho. Do you have any problem with them writing Seligman, Finnerty and Evans' jersey #s on their wristbands? I thought it a nice compromise.

    Perhaps so. If we're to re-assign the blue wall of silence, could we, to appease the other side, now refer to the defense attorneys as a pinstriped wall of chattiness?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#14)
    by spartan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:19:05 PM EST
    I hope these officers can remember what happened and what was told to them by the accuser so they can get it on paper for all the interested parties. Good Luck, I can't remember what I ate for dinner two days ago.

    SharonIn Jax posted:
    He may be rusty, he may have underestimated the scrutiny he and his office would be under, he may think that he can still play by the old rules and get by.
    mikenifong.com
    JUDGMENT Both personally and professionally, I have always been a person on whom the community could rely to make the right decisions for this office and for this community: decisions that further the cause of justice. That is why, for example, I voluntarily gave open-file discovery to defendants twenty years before the law required it: it was the right thing to do. Doing the right thing is not only the best practice in principle, but it is usually also the most economical process in the long run, and you can count on me to continue to do so.


    SharonInJax posted:
    Took 2 overtimes, though, imho. Do you have any problem with them writing Seligman, Finnerty and Evans' jersey #s on their wristbands? I thought it a nice compromise.
    Yes, the numbers are better than "Innocent," or the men's motto, which ironically, is "No Excuses, No Regrets."

    s a pinstriped wall of selective chattiness

    Well sure. I no more believe that the defense is being completely open than i believe that the team absolutely refused to say a single word.

    Forgive me, imho, but I would take ANY political candidate's comments with a few grains of salt, but heck, even Kerry Sutton supposedly went to the polls wearing a Nifong t-shirt.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#20)
    by TomStewart on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:52:25 PM EST
    I still don't understand why this case is being pursued.

    If you re-read the motion you will see that Evan's counsel states that the failure to prepare the reports is a violation of NC law. In its request for relief, the motion requests the court to order the prepartion and production of such reports. As to the "3" lineup sessions, it is unclear to me whether there were 2 or 3 separate lineup seesions. The motion states that taking the first and second lineup sessions, together, it appears that the Durham PD conducted a lineup. Also, pure conjection at this point that she did not ID the other two. Finally, it appears to me based on this motion the prosecution is trying to hide the evidence. It will be interesting to see how the judge rules on these motions. Remember however that the defense will ask at trial how hte investigators can remember certain details. When they cannot refer to reasonably contemporaneous notes, their testimony may be discounted as a product of a faulty memory. [also a divergence from customary policy]/

    Sharon posted:
    Forgive me, imho, but I would take ANY political candidate's comments with a few grains of salt, but heck, even Kerry Sutton supposedly went to the polls wearing a Nifong t-shirt.
    Do you think he is going to lie about that when his opponent worked in the same office with him for 14 years?

    I suggested awhile back that the rape story may have appeared when the AV was going to be put in the drunk tank. Hmmm. "It was not until the police decided to involuntarily commit her that she changed her account." Now we have a motive for the AV to lie about the events. She didn't want to go to the drunk tank. PB, thanks for not asking to interrupt my schedule. I have no schedule here, though. Finally, anyone, who believes that the AV is telling the truth?

    I had the same confusion about the photo lineups,nyesq. I'm betting the judge will not be happy if he is convinced that reports are purposefully being kept in the investigators' heads and not written down as they should be in the normal course of an investigation. I find it especially curious that there is no report from the officer who transported her from the Kroger to the "access center" where the AV first made an accusation of rape. There seems to be some suggestion that the accusation followed her being advised that she was going in on a 24 hour hold.

    TomStewart wrote: I still don't understand why this case is being pursued. Because the election isn't until November.

    "It was not until the police decided to involuntarily commit her that she changed her account."
    Didn't they decide that in the Krogers parking lot?

    PB, thanks for not asking to interrupt my schedule. I have no schedule here, though.
    I think that was his point.

    A politician lying on his campaign website, imho? Shocking suggestion, I know. How about "not a lie but not exactly the whole truth, either," or "he really believes he is as fair to defendants as he says he is, and always has been"? Now all he needs to do to make me believe in his fairness is stop playing hide the evidence.

    imho: how about saying it this way then: it was not until she knew they were going to involuntarily commit her that she changed her story. Interesting comments, too, by the responding officer: that he put smelling salts under her nose and her reaction indicated to him that she was not really unconscious or out of it as she seemed.

    A politician lying on his campaign website, imho? Shocking suggestion, I know. How about "not a lie but not exactly the whole truth, either," or "he really believes he is as fair to defendants as he says he is, and always has been"? Now all he needs to do to make me believe in his fairness is stop playing hide the evidence.
    His opponent would have liked nothing better than to nail him lying.He fired her as soon as he was appointed DA. She worked with him for 14 years. She would know if it was a lie. Defense attorneys also said he gave them more the required discovery. I tried to find one bad thing anyone said about him before this. I could not - only that once he was set on a position it is hard to move him from it. He even said, "I don't have a reputation for backing down."That may be what we are seeing here.

    imho: how about saying it this way then: it was not until she knew they were going to involuntarily commit her that she changed her story.
    She changed her story? What was her story before then? I thought they committed her bcause she wasn't talking?

    Good night all. My boy graduates from HS in the morning. Then he'll magically change into a man and go off to play a "helmet sport" at a predominantly white, elite university. See why this case gets to me so strongly? It really has very little to do with my having attended Duke and having loved my time there (even when it was back when Bucky Waters was the coach and the basketball team was AWFUL.) It has everything to do with how I can look at Evans, Seligman, and Finnerty, and see my son. He, too, hangs out with some boys, some of whom are teammates, who can be rude, crude, boorish, insular, cocky, smug, and stupid. Make it Penn football instead of Duke lacrosse, and he'd have been at the party. Scary thought, if indeed the accused are as innocent, as not guilty as the evidence seems to show at this point. I could be seeing his picture and name plastered all over the media, could hear him called a rapist, have the NBPP know his name and where he lives. Wouldn't matter that I, or anyone who knows him well, believed him to be innocent, knew him to be incapable of such a heinous crime. It would be a costly, in every sense, nightmare, and all because he was in the wrong place, at the wrong time, doing something stupid. High price to pay for bad judgment. On that happy note . . .

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#33)
    by Lora on Fri May 26, 2006 at 09:38:38 PM EST
    Catching up - my how time flies when you're obsessed. noni and imho asked about my 90% DNA match comment vs 90% sure of the ID - I thought it was 90% for both - I will have to go back and try to find it (back to the statistics threads, groan). I have a comment on the first line-up (no ID in group F). The question asked the AV for each photo was: "Is this the person you saw sexually assaulted you?" ("Sexually assaulted" was a hand-written "fill-in-the-blank." on the report in the motion.) Now I thought Evans was the one she said was choking her. I hadn't heard that she accused him of sexually assaulting her. Now this is something I might do. I'd take the question literally and if he merely assaulted me and not sexually assaulted me, I'd say "no." I'd try to follow their protocol to the letter. I'm not saying she did that, but she could have. Comments on the police write-up from the appendix to the motion: First of all, according to the officer (Sgt Shelton I believe), the AV was conscious in Kim's car with her eyes closed. He noted that the way she reacted to the ammonia was consistent with a conscious person's reaction, NOT an unconscious one. So, she was not passed out drunk, according to the officer. This supports my theory that her behavior was the result of trauma, NOT from being impaired. She refused to speak at first, and as they didn't know where she lived or anything about her, they brought her to the psych unit first. I do not see that her statements about being raped necessarily indicate an inconsistency in her statements to the officer. To the officer, she described a few of the events of the evening, in order, apparently, saying that she was a stripper, and that she and "Nikki" had performed for the men at the party. She related them going out to the car, and having an argument with "Nikki" because "Nikki" wanted to go back in but she didn't. She said she was pulled out of the car and groped. At this point, the officer's narration states that she told him that no one forced her to have sex. It may be, that at that point in time (outside being groped) that no one did force her to have sex. She may simply not have finished her story. It isn't clear whether she just volunteered that comment, or if it was in response to a question. He states that he went outside to call in that she recanted, and then he was told that she said she had been raped. He then went back to her and asked, were you raped or weren't you? and she began to cry and said she didn't want to talk to him any more. This is what I think: she just didn't finish her story. When the SANE nurse got there, she straightened out the misunderstanding and when the officer returned and was quizzing her, she felt bullied and had had enough. So, Bob, to answer your question, does anyone still believe the AV? I answer yes, I think she could still be telling the truth.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#34)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:06:02 PM EST
    Sharon wrote:
    Good night all. My boy graduates from HS in the morning. Then he'll magically change into a man and go off to play a "helmet sport" at a predominantly white, elite university.
    Wow
    He, too, hangs out with some boys, some of whom are teammates, who can be rude, crude, boorish, insular, cocky, smug, and stupid. Make it Penn football instead of Duke lacrosse, and he'd have been at the party.
    Congratulations on your son's accomplishments. Certainly you are a proud mother who raised her son in her image. Congratulations to Duke for passing along such a rich tradition. We hope he makes Ben Franklin proud.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jo on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:13:22 PM EST
    who believes that the AV is telling the truth?
    I answer yes, I think she could still be telling the truth.
    ALthough it is possible that the AV may be telling the truth, does anyone believe the AV is telling the truth?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#36)
    by cpinva on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:26:05 PM EST
    So, Bob, to answer your question, does anyone still believe the AV? I answer yes, I think she could still be telling the truth.
    lora, i want you on any jury i ever have to be a defendant in front of, i will not be convicted. she may well be telling the truth, as she perceives it. however, her perception and reality are not necessarily mutually inclusive. again, absolutely no, none, zip, nada, forensic evidence, released to this point, tying either the three indicted, or anyone attending that party, to the accuser, in any way. no witnesses, other than the accuser, who has a bad history in these matters, which will be targeted, since it goes to credibility. a DA with a primary to win, and a big mouth, making a lot of claims, with nothing of substance to support them, other than, apparently, wishful thnking. did a crime occur at that party? i have no clue. neither, it seems, does anyone else.

    Lora, It takes quite an imagination to invent supplementary details that recast a recantation of a rape as a mere communicational gaffe. As this controversy has brewed into the "perfect storm" of race, class and gender issues, our most unbiased impressions of what might of happened can only come from first-hand testimony of witnesses while the event was still fresh in their mind. It is clear from the written report that the officer felt he was being deceived and strung along the entire time.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#38)
    by Lora on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:09:26 PM EST
    max, The fact that someone from the hospital ran out to tell him she DID say she was raped while he was making the phone call strongly suggests a "communicational gaffe." It is reasonably clear to me that he was too hasty in his assumption and his phone call, and the AV went to considerable lengths to correct it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#39)
    by Lora on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:14:14 PM EST
    Jo, As most posters here know, I tend to believe her. I haven't and would not state as a certainty that the AV is telling the truth. However, although many posters here see it as a certainty that the AV's story cannot be true, I have not found the evidence to be contradictory to the AV's story. noni and imho, I couldn't find anything about the fingernail DNA other than the tissue being "consistent with" and the DNA being a "less than 100%" match to one of the players [Evans] and not consistent with the other 45 players. I must have gotten the 90% ID mixed up with the DNA. Thanks for pointing that out. Sharon, I do appreciate that you care very much for your son and picture what would happen to him if he were wrongly accused of rape. I've no doubt that it would be a horrendous thing to go through and I fervently hope you and he never have to go through that experience. I will disclose that I am the mother of a young woman, and I also work with college students, male and female. I feel hit hard by some of the comments that tear down the AV, because I picture what would happen if she had been raped. I could go on about her virtues, but I'll just say I'm as proud of her as a mother can be. She is not perfect. She has been known to lie. She has had a minor brush with the law. Her lifestyle (no, she is neither a stripper nor a prostitute) at times has raised some eyebrows, including mine. There are many things about her that I don't know, including, I am sure, many experiences that she has had. There was a dark period in her life during which she easily could have been hospitalized for a week or possibly more. If she ever told me she'd been raped at a party and reported it, and her reputation and credibility were attacked as viciously as the AV's have been, it would absolutely break my heart. I would fear for her safety and her sanity. And I would believe her.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#40)
    by cpinva on Sat May 27, 2006 at 12:03:38 AM EST
    lora, no one's "tearing down the AV", merely pointing out the complete lack of any material evidence to support her claim. pointing out her documented history of questionable accusations, for similar crimes. pointing out the fact that she's been less than forthcoming or consistant (or so it would appear) to the police investigators, and the local DA in both her version of events, and her ID's of the accused. if that constitutes "tearing down the AV", than i plead guilty, guilty, guilty, dammit! i tend to believe it's analysis of the "facts" as presented. you might reasonably ask, "why not the same approach with the accused?". a fair question. simply put, they needn't do anything, it's the state's job to put a compelling case together, not the defendant's. realistically, the defendant's side only comes into play if the state can show some evidence that both: a. a crime occured., and b. the defendants appear to have been involved. so far, again, based on what i've read, seen and heard, the state has failed to meet its minimum burden.

    Sharon and Lora, I appreciate your honesty and openess about what makes this case personal for you. If I may make a cliched and humble suggestion, talk to your kids about it. It sounds like you both have some legitimate concerns that should be discussed before your kids leave for college, or to live on their own.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#42)
    by Alan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 01:07:55 AM EST
    Lora posted:
    The fact that someone from the hospital ran out to tell him she DID say she was raped while he was making the phone call strongly suggests a "communicational gaffe."
    What is your evidence for 'The fact that someone from the hospital ran out'? Sgt Shelton's whole comment is:
    Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the SANE doctor that she had been raped.


    Posted by azbballfan May 26, 2006 11:06 PM Sharon wrote: Good night all. My boy graduates from HS in the morning. Then he'll magically change into a man and go off to play a "helmet sport" at a predominantly white, elite university. Wow He, too, hangs out with some boys, some of whom are teammates, who can be rude, crude, boorish, insular, cocky, smug, and stupid. Make it Penn football instead of Duke lacrosse, and he'd have been at the party. Congratulations on your son's accomplishments. Certainly you are a proud mother who raised her son in her image. Congratulations to Duke for passing along such a rich tradition. We hope he makes Ben Franklin proud.
    azbballfan, Congratulations on a disgusting insult to a fellow poster. That will definitely teach Sharon to be open with concerns about her son. Your vendetta against Duke just hit a new low.

    Hi Sharon wrote:
    It has everything to do with how I can look at Evans, Seligman, and Finnerty, and see my son.
    Lady Justice is often depicted as wearing a blindfold. Someday maybe she'll be depicted lifting the blindfold from one eye and giving a wink and a high-five to the people who resemble relatives of hers, but that won't be a day she'll brag about. She might be blind, but she's no fool. Personally I'd prefer Justice to have both eyes open all the way. I think it's possible to care about both parties in a dispute. In fact, I consider it a human obligation. Kalidoggie wrote:
    No one knows and no one has said who threw the first salvo of racist insults. Kim supposedly made derogatory comments about their white manhood...why is that not racist? Why is one insult OK and the other not?
    It's an interesting asymmetry. Do you imagine that Kim Roberts will have any difficulty owning up to whatever statements she made during her exchange with the players? I don't. And how about the person who shouted "B*tch, thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt." Think he'll have any trouble? I'm kind of thinking that he will. I'm hoping that the reason he might have trouble is because he's actually ashamed of what he said. I'm fearful, however, that that isn't actually the case, and that he is in fact just worried about being roughed up by some New Black Panther Party guy or other. I think its quite possible he's just hiding behind the wall because he's worried society will McFadyen him. And that shame has nothing to do with it.

    cpinva, You wrote:
    again, absolutely no, none, zip, nada, forensic evidence, released to this point, tying either the three indicted, or anyone attending that party, to the accuser, in any way.
    I don't think you are paying attention to the fingernail evidence, Cpinva. It is in fact forensic evidence that ties the accuser to Evans. The likelihood that dna found on (or is it under) that fingernail came from Evans is substantial, and is precisely what would be predicted by her story. The fact that an alternative (and far less likely) story has been proposed (not confirmed) by the defense does not reduce the significance of this utterly forensic evidence to "zero" or "nada."

    Also Friday, a lawyer who said he represents a lacrosse player not charged in the case said he wants the Durham Police Department to conduct an internal investigation into a poster and flyers that he says unfairly implied all 46 members of the lacrosse team were guilty of rape.
    After the high-wire act and the juggling, it's always refreshing when the clowns come in to provide a little relief from the tension.

    I appreciate the various comments regarding my post about my son. For those of you who missed it in some of my various posts, I am also the mother of a daughter. She's 24 now and that is one reason why I have, often, said that I don't want the AV to be lying. PB: if you wish, I will dredge up my posts where I say that I have both empathy and sympathy for the AV. I fail to see, PB, how my post had anything to do with how "Lady Justice" should view the case. I certainly did not suggest that She should judge my son, or the accused in this case, with a "wink and a high five" for any reason. I was merely pointing out, as others have, that concrete, corroborative evidence that (a) a rape actually occurred; and (b) that the AV correctly identified her attackers is lacking thus far.

    Hi Sharon, You wrote:
    PB: if you wish, I will dredge up my posts where I say that I have both empathy and sympathy for the AV.
    No, I remember them. For example, you wrote:
    ... I would like to think that I would [among other things] not allow myself blindly to believe my daughter in the face of all the information which has come to light to the contrary. I would like to think that I would be more concerned about how damaged my daughter must be, how much help she must need and how to get it for her if, and I stress IF, she had brought false charges for some reason.
    I also recall you bringing up the importance of personalizing the accuser, by publishing her name, (just her first name, how could just her first name hurt?), after which you directed posters to a thread where her full name was posted. Very maternal of you. It's obvious that you are only treating her as you would your own daughter. No respect.

    Sharon, You wrote:
    I fail to see, PB, how my post had anything to do with how "Lady Justice" should view the case.
    I think you've located the common ground here.

    7Duke4, You wrote:
    I fail to understand why people who say they are left and liberal ( and I have major creds there) can be so prejudiced.
    Hey, major creds, you know your stats. What odds would you give that the dna found on the broken fingernail didn't came from David Evans? 14 of 3561 profiles in the dna lab's database could not be excluded (don't know if Evans was one of the 14). Among the 46 players who gave dna from the team, only Evans could not be excluded.

    Sharon wrote: Interesting comments, too, by the responding officer: that he put smelling salts under her nose and her reaction indicated to him that she was not really unconscious or out of it as she seemed. So she was being dishonest about that too?

    Alan: The communications gaffe was between the AV's brain and her tongue.

    Sharon, congrats to you son and have a good day today.

    Somebody help me. What evidence, besides the AV's claim, do we have of a rape having occurred?

    I've been watching this thread(s) for over a month and while I've been tempted to post many times, I've refrained from doing so until now. Why now? Well, PB's comments regarding Sharon's son for one, and his suggestion that the defense's alternative story regarding the forensic evidence that links Dave Evan's to the AV is "less likely". Is it really? Even If we assume a rape actually did happen, and given what we've heard about the nature and usage of the word "on" as opposed to "under" I still think the DNA is more likely to have been picked up in a waste basket, where the nail sat for days, than in any encounter on the night of the alleged rape. And if we return to reality, where we cannot make the same assumption, and instead have to include all we can infer from what we've learned about the AV, recognizing that her credibility is at the very least suspect (I hope you would admit at least that), along with the fact that it was the nail was retrieved from Dave Evans's waste basket, coupled with an ID that both sides admit was less than 100%. It disturbs me to think that you really believe that it's less likely I guess I should state, I'm a white male, who received my BA from an "elite private university" in the south, and I'm currently enrolled in a graduate program at an "elite private university" in New England. Needless to say, while I hope I've remained as open minded as possible, I certainly identify more with the accused, than with the accuser. I could qualify this statement more but I'm sure those that want to will condemn me for these facts, whether I explain further or not so I won't waste the words.

    With regard to the multiple line-ups, one has to wonder, why? If Evans wasn't chosen during the first line-up, who was chosen? If a different set of players was chosen....so what...Why would a second (or third) line-up be necessary? One possible explanation is that the AV only identified one or two players the first time....though, it doesn't seem as though you effectively tell the AV to "look again" at the same set and until you choose the "right" number. A second, and more ominous explanation, may be that Nifong discovered that one or more of the originally identified players was not in town during the party (several were on job interviews). One piece of information that might support this hypothesis is the instruction given to the AV by the investigator at the beginning of the last line-up. Quoting from TL
    The second glaring error is that the officer says he only used photos of those believed to be at the party. He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party. This may be the most egregious error, as I've written before. First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers. Second, there are no foils.
    I don't know who was included in the first line-up, and whether anyone was excluded from the second line-up....but it would sure be interesting to know.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Sharon wrote: Interesting comments, too, by the responding officer: that he put smelling salts under her nose and her reaction indicated to him that she was not really unconscious or out of it as she seemed.
    So she was being dishonest about that too?
    So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#58)
    by Alan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 08:20:17 AM EST
    imho posted: So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?"
    The police officer, Sgt Shelton, never uses those words. All he says in his report is:
    She was unconscious.
    Later he determines that she is not by her reaction to the ammonia capsule:
    When I used it, the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious.
    Perhaps you could show us where the words you post as a quotation appear?

    Hi Ricky, Glad to have you aboard, You wrote:
    I've been watching this thread(s) for over a month and while I've been tempted to post many times, I've refrained from doing so until now. Why now? Well, PB's comments regarding Sharon's son for one
    About her son? What did I say about her son? You added:
    and his suggestion that the defense's alternative story regarding the forensic evidence that links Dave Evan's to the AV is "less likely". Is it really?
    When I say that it is "less likely," I only mean to point out that if I were to recreate in a lab the two stories, one that has our accuser scratching at a person with an easy-to-break-off fingernail, and one that has the accuser leaving that nail on the bathroom floor or in the trashcan used by more than that one person, my expectation that the nail would wind up having that one person's dna on it would be greater in the first experiment than the second. I wasn't trying to make a statement about "reality." The accuser may well have picked Evans out of the lineup because she knew he would be the most likely person to fetch that nail from the trash for the police. And since she was never in the bathroom alone with Evans, that may well be a more likely scenario than the one she offers up. So I'm definitely not trying to rig the election here. I'm just pointing out that "nada" is the wrong word for describing the presence of Evans dna on her fingernail. The jury is not going to think its "nada", because it's simply not "nada." Rogan wrote:
    Possible DNA match of fingernail skin does not prove crime.
    I couldn't agree with you more... Well, except for your choice of the word possible... Probable would be more honest, no? The odds are somewhat against Evans if he takes the position that it isn't his dna. It's a moot point, since " certain DNA match of fingernail skin does not prove rape."

    Alan posted:
    The police officer, Sgt Shelton, never uses those words. All he says in his report is:
    She was unconscious.
    Later he determines that she is not by her reaction to the ammonia capsule:
    When I used it, the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious.
    Perhaps you could show us where the words you post as a quotation appear?
    Hi Alan, I heard it on the 911 tape. A quote from the transcript is included here: Cops: Duke Accuser 'Passed Out Drunk'
    The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else's car.
    The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person. When asked whether the woman needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed out drunk."


    TL wrote:
    First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers.
    Well, the accuser may misinterpret it that way, but, correct me if I wrong here, the police, at least on tape, as I recall, did not tell her that the photos she was about to look at would be a complete set or that the group would include her attackers. Additionally they gave no indication of how many photos she would be shown. TL also wrote:
    He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party.
    I may be wrong here as well, but I don't believe the police ever used the term "players." He used the word "people." So, if we are to believe the police, what they essentially were asking the accuser to do was not to identify the people who attacked her, but merely to describe the activities of people thought to be at the party.

    IMHO posted: So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?" It's interesting. She may have actually been passed out drunk, but it sounds like at some point she was faking it. Either she was faking it so as not to get out of the car and surrender herself into police custody or she was passed out. My guess is that she was passed out initially. She couldn't expect that Roberts was going to let her stay in the car all night if she pretended to be asleep. I am not surprised at how fast "AV version-clingers" averted their eyes from the "I was pulled out of the car and groped but I wasn't raped" story by the AV. Even they realize that that to accept the story means that she initially denied being raped, which would mean that the story was lie, further damaging her credibility; or, if it were true that she wasn't raped, then her later story would have been a lie. Of course, the other problem is that the first part of her assertion, that she was pulled out of a car and groped, is demonstrably untrue. The AV was seen being put into the car. Somebody may have copped a feel on her way into the car, although Roberts didn't notice, but no one pulled her out of the car. How many lies do people avoid before they face the big one?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#63)
    by ding7777 on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:14:57 AM EST
    to inmyhumbleopinion re: "passed out drunk?"
    I heard it on the 911 tape.
    The transcript does not identify the officer as Sgt Shelton. Does the tape identify the officer who is speaking as Sgt Shelton?

    Pat posted:
    Quoting from TL
    The second glaring error is that the officer says he only used photos of those believed to be at the party. He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party. This may be the most egregious error, as I've written before. First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers. Second, there are no foils.
    Talk Left is referring the April 4th videotaped line up. If this is what the officer told the accuser, and if she is lying, they made her job more difficult. They are leading her to believe she can not choose someone who was not at the party, but in fact, since they showed her 46 photos, according to the captains, 5 or 6 of the 46 were never at the party. Unless the captains are lying there were at least 5 foils and if anyone left before the accuser arrived, there would have been even more foils.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#65)
    by ding7777 on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:31:15 AM EST
    to inmyhumbleopinion
    Unless the captains are lying there were at least 5 foils and if anyone left before the accuser arrived, there would have been even more foils
    . If the AV selected any of the Lacrosse team "foils"; those "foils" that were id'd by the AV have to prove they were not there and/or left before the AV arrived; and with Nifong saying he may have a different timeline the "foils" who did leave before the AV arrived will have a hard job proving his innocence

    I haven' seen this posted here yet, so here it is: http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/443932.html The man who drove the AV to the party is talking. There is some interesting stuff here that could affect your timelines.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#67)
    by cpinva on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:42:31 AM EST
    PB said:
    I don't think you are paying attention to the fingernail evidence, Cpinva. It is in fact forensic evidence that ties the accuser to Evans. The likelihood that dna found on (or is it under) that fingernail came from Evans is substantial, and is precisely what would be predicted by her story.
    B, i'm afraid it's you who aren't paying attention to the evidence. "consistent with" is not, by any stretch, the "same as". especially not with DNA. since the premise of DNA is that we all have a unique strand, "consistent with" means, well...................nothing. i reiterate, there is no hard forensic evidence to tie the three accused to the accuser. nothing, nada, zip, zero. given the circumstances finally described, there should have been a fair amount. without getting too graphic, let's take up the issue of condoms. condoms would only keep fluids from getting on the accuser, not genital hair, unless the accused were either: a. all shaved., or b. using special, "cover you to the navel" condoms. yet, no genital hair, other than the accuser's, seems to have been found on her. no fluids, no skin cells, no nothing, that can be positively identified as coming from any of the accused. no evidence of a struggle in the bathroom. though, with advance notice, it's certainly possible that could have been cleaned up. however, if that were the case, why didn't they empty the trash and vacuum? it doesn't appear that they made much effort to tidy up the "scene of the crime". for dukies, not very bright. again, did a crime occur at this party? beats the heck out of me. the facts, as we know them to this point, don't seem to indicate it. why would the accuser make a false accusation? i have no clue. that would requre mind reading, not one of my skills. clearly, this was a party where something went horribly awry. boys behaved badly, girls behaved badly. so what else is new? whether a crime happened is not at all clear to me at this point, i wish it were.

    ding7777 posted:
    The transcript does not identify the officer as Sgt Shelton. Does the tape identify the officer who is speaking as Sgt Shelton?
    I've read three officers responded to Krogers. Sgt Shelton wrote that he was the first responder, but I don't know who spoke with the dispatcher. I didn't specify which police officer determined she was ""passed out drunk." imho posted:
    So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?"
    What I find amusing about this is some posters had been crowing about the "passed out drunk" determination because, to them, it suggests she was too drunk to make an ID. It has been abandoned in favor of this new idea that the accuser was not "passed out drunk," but instead being deceptive, which is a more delicious alternative.

    Sorry. Here is the News Observer link.

    ding7777
    If the AV selected any of the Lacrosse team "foils"; those "foils" that were id'd by the AV have to prove they were not there and/or left before the AV arrived; and with Nifong saying he may have a different timeline the "foils" who did leave before the AV arrived will have a hard job proving his innocence.
    I have read that some players were out of town on job interviews, seems easy enough to prove, but, unfortunately, the three she did pick were not among them. None of the players, even those with less than "airtight alibis," have to prove their innocence.

    But he said that when she arrived about 9 p.m., he noticed nothing unusual about her demeanor.
    That from the N&O article today, reporting the driver's story. But
    After their arrival, he and his daughter took a short car ride about 10 p.m. to a neighborhood convenience store
    that from her father. Noname: not sure if that clarifies or muddies the time line, but it certainly makes the defense's interest in her cell phone more understandable: especially if hers was not one of the 2 cell phones, out of the 4 the police say they have, that the police actually ran "spreadsheet data exports" on.

    I have zero confidence in the driver's own story. He claims they left for the party at 10:45, yet why did the accuser receive two cell calls while they were on their way? " 'On our way there, she got two calls on her cell phone saying if you don't come soon, it's going to get canceled,' Taylor said." How many stops did they make on the way? BTW, the driver is a real gem to have as a friend. "He said he did not check on the accuser's children or tell her parents where she was. 'I told her I would, but I didn't,' he said. 'I don't know her that well.'"

    If she received two calls while she was in the car with the driver and made one to her father to get directions it should be pretty easy to find out what time those calls took place. Bissey didn't see this part of her arrival:
    Taylor and his passenger were flagged down by a man outside 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. awaiting their arrival.
    This is interesting:
    The man who drove the accuser in the Duke University lacrosse case to the team party said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night.


    Cpvina, You wrote:
    B, i'm afraid it's you who aren't paying attention to the evidence.
    Could that be possible, Cpvina? You wrote:
    "consistent with" is not, by any stretch, the "same as". especially not with DNA.
    That must be why 14 other people in the lab's database also could not ruled out as the source of the dna in Evan's bathroom. I hope police have questioned those people. You never know, they might have been involved in some way. You wrote: since the premise of DNA is that we all have a unique strand, "consistent with" means, well...................nothing. I heard one defense where a fellow put his mother on the stand to testify that he had been adopted at birth and that she could not be sure whether he had a twin or not. Reasonable doubt means different things to different people. The fact that 45 of the people at the party were excluded as sources of the dna on the fingernail probably would have more significance to a numerate person like yourself than it would to a juror, who might not assign the number "zero" to such information.

    mik posted:
    I have zero confidence in the driver's own story. He claims they left for the party at 10:45, yet why did the accuser receive two cell calls while they were on their way?
    Sounds like they got lost. Her father said she called him for directions. From the article:
    He [the driver] said that all he could tell investigators was about their visit and the drive to the house, which he had difficulty finding.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#76)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 10:26:23 AM EST
    I thought the escort service received the calls for dancers at 8:30. The driver stated the accuser arrived at 9:00 but had called him several hours before to use his pad to change. Who calls someone out of the blue to use his place? What about the boyfriend? And what about the next morning at the hospital. Why do you call someone you barely know to check up on your kids? The cellphone records are very important. Again it looks like a poor investigative job by the DA and the Durham police. And I thought South Carolina was bad.

    I'm still trying to understand why Nifong needed multiple line-ups. Further, if he is "doing this by the book," why are these line-ups such a secret? If multiple line-ups are a proper procedure, why didn't the DA tell the public about this? All of the line-ups were done during his pre-election campaign. So, it couldn't be that he was in his current "not available for comment" mode.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#78)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 10:42:24 AM EST
    The more that comes out about the accuser from her family and friends/drivers, the more it looks like she may have serious judgement problems. I understand you can make decent money stripping ,but going to guys' homes to shower and change is weird to say the least. This is not somebody she knew well. According to the driver she spent one and a half hours at his place. I don't think a shower and change would take that long. I really don't think the accuser is planning on pursuing this and I suspect the DA is hoping the same.

    It's intersting that the driver got lost finding 610 N. Broad. Evidently, there isn't an easily visible number on the house and the street numbering "system" is odd within the block. This may explain why Seligmann directed the cab to meet him at the intersection, rather than at the house.

    Good point, spartan. The pre-party events, the timing of them, seem inconsistent among the AV, her father, and this "friend." Is he one of the non-Duke sample DNA donors? Maybe this guy is simply trying to distance himself from this mess, or to downplay his involvement with her, but it does seem strange that she would call and ask him to pick up her kids. Maybe she didn't want to face her parents, but then why did the father go to the hospital? Too confusing, espcially if I re-read the father's version of the events earlier in the evening.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#81)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:07:24 AM EST
    One other thing about this drivers statement. Who was taking care of the kids if they needed picking up? Were the kids alone?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#82)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:16:13 AM EST
    Sharon, Congrats on your son's graduation. My son also graduated and he left this morning for the beach with his friends to enjoy "first week" at Myrtle Beach. Needless to say, I had a long discussion with him regarding drinking, driving, and sex. I kept reminding him about the Duke fiasco and hopefully he got the message.

    IMHO wrote: What I find amusing about this is some posters had been crowing about the "passed out drunk" determination because, to them, it suggests she was too drunk to make an ID. It has been abandoned in favor of this new idea that the accuser was not "passed out drunk," but instead being deceptive, which is a more delicious alternative. The "new idea" was from Sgt. Shelton, and it's not necessarily in conflict. She was apparently passed out when Roberts and the security guard tried to get her out of the car. At some point before the cop used smelling salts she was aroused but continued to pretend to be asleep (by the way, what happened to the "grip of death on the steering wheel and/or hand brake" story?) As far as identifying the assailants, since she wasn't assailed and got three chances to form an opinion, how she came to choose the three defendants is interesting but not because she was too high to note who was raping her. She wasn't raped. It's a false charge.

    Maxwell_Smart Great username!! You can sign your posts "86" Are you married dto 99? Janet Jones married a 99. PB wrote:
    I think its quite possible he's just hiding behind the wall because he's worried society will McFadyen him. And that shame has nothing to do with it.
    I doubt anyone will own up to it because Bissey can testify as to what he heard, so no one will get "McFaydened". Regardless, I'm sure someone, whether related to the case or not, will get "Nifonged" by the Nifong in the future. Speaking of the McFayden email, what will be interesting if there is a trial will be if the McFayden email is admitted into evidence.... Does the defense file a motion in limine to exclude it or use it as direct or rebuttal evidence to support the contention that the party was a bust because the strippers didn't strip. McFayden would have to be on the stand to authenticate it and explain the context to a jury who may not have seen the movie "American Pyscho", which will then require a short clip of the movie. Given the history of the Nifong, it will not surprise me if there are other emails and responses to McFayden's email even quoting the movie that put McFayden's email in context..."My need to engage in homicidal behavior on a massive scale cannot be corrected, but, ah, I have no other way to fulfil my needs." or "I like to dissect women. Did you know I'm totally insane?" or Waiter: "Would you like to hear today's specials?" Patrick Bateman: "Not if you want to keep your spleen." The pro-AV/FA crowd will start screaming like kids chasing at a popsicle stand if this quote shows up..."That's a very expensive glass of Chardonnay you're NOT drinking there. It isn't poisoned." Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    It's interesting. She may have actually been passed out drunk, but it sounds like at some point she was faking it.
    The report also says they had to basically wrestle her grip loose from the emergency brake and that when they got her outside of the car she collapsed. "Passed out drunk" or faking it? Could this be what she thought was being "pulled out of the car and groped"? Also, going to the drunk tank and involuntary commitment are too very different things. The drunk tank is an overnight hold. Involuntary Commitment is a day or more.

    IMHO wrote and quoted: This is interesting: The man who drove the accuser in the Duke University lacrosse case to the team party said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night. Even more interesting that Nifong apparently didn't run the toxicology test. If it was collected, what's the delay? The problem is, even absolute proof of a date rape drug doesn't prove a rape, doesn't prove who gave it to her or if she took it herself. My guess is that there is a reason that the tox testing wasn't done, and it was for the benefit of the defense.

    That is, it was not for the benefit of the defense.

    Now with the driver's statement, it is three different witnesses (Driver, Kim, neighbor) saying she was not intoxicated or impaired. Defense claimed that she was impaired upon arrival. I wonder why you need to use lies in your defense if you are innocent.

    PB wrote, about DNA evidence: That must be why 14 other people in the lab's database also could not ruled out as the source of the dna in Evan's bathroom. I hope police have questioned those people. You never know, they might have been involved in some way. Pass the pipe, PB. If you think a partial DNA match from something retrieved from a garbage can days after an alleged event has any probative value, I want some of what you're smoking.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#89)
    by azbballfan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:42:22 AM EST
    Bob is getting closer and closer to getting inside the head of the AV. Bob, for added effect, you could lose the punctuation and go Henry James on us.

    Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    The man who drove the accuser in the Duke University lacrosse case to the team party said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night.
    Consider this: He did not say whether or not they had any drinks (from article) He is not going to say whether or not they got high (more likely). That would be a guarenteed ticket to be Nifonged. She identified the driver as someone whose DNA could show up. After he selected the red outfit, my guess, is it obviously worked the magic for him, which why there were late. I wonder if this guy realizes the scrutiny he just invited on himself.

    Hicht, if you think that the attendees at the party were lying about her being intoxicated then why do you think that there was no toxicology test done? Why wasn't someone charged with drugging her? If someone at the party drugged her, then Nifong dropped the ball big time. Drugged or not doesn't prove a rape. In this case, nothing has proved a rape.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#92)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:49:25 AM EST
    Hicht, As I am sure you are aware there are different degrees of intoxication. The accuser may have had a couple of beers at the drivers house during that hour and a half and still not be "falling over" drunk. The neighbor did not actually talk to the accuser to know if she was under the influence. The other dancer admitted the accuser drank at the party and the officers at Kroger thought she was drunk. I don't think what the defense has suggested is out of sync with what we have so far.

    az wrote: Bob is getting closer and closer to getting inside the head of the AV. Bob, for added effect, you could lose the punctuation and go Henry James on us. If I ever revealed my affiliation with Duke then you'd really go negative on me.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#94)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:55:53 AM EST
    Kalidoggie, The defense doesn't need the DA. It appears the accuser's family and friends/drivers keep providing a wealth of statements/leads to help the players case.

    Bob,
    Hicht, if you think that the attendees at the party were lying about her being intoxicated then why do you think that there was no toxicology test done? Why wasn't someone charged with drugging her?
    I am not claiming she was not intoxicated at all. Actually I am sure she was intoxicated when she left the house. Defense claimed that she was impaired upon arrival but three different witness is rejecting it. I have no idea why there is not toxicology test. Maybe it is one of the mistakes of the people who is handling the case or maybe DA found a way to delay it in order to put the the defense in a more difficult position when it is closer to the court date.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#96)
    by azbballfan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 12:03:04 PM EST
    Bob, it was meant as a compliment. Henry James is famous for being able to dissect the human psyche. He often presents differing interpretations of events and has his characters' perceptions evolve throughout his stories. You've shown a relatively balanced approach to your Socratic investigation. At times, I've wondered if you've been a little harder on the AV, but despite her name being withheld, we seem to know a lot more about her, her friends, and her family than the ARs. So there is more to analyze about the AV's intentions/thoughts than the ARs'. Yes, I was guilty of enjoying myself too much yesterday when type&think offered up too many opportunities to push some buttons.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#97)
    by Lora on Sat May 27, 2006 at 12:03:22 PM EST
    I've transcribed some of Sgt Shelton (I think it's his) write-up; hopefully it is accurate: This is after the AV already said she'd been raped (at the other hospital I believe). [The AV was describing the argument in Kim's car about whether or not to go back in. Then:]
    She said that some of the guys from the party pulled her from the vehicle and groped her. She told me that no one forced her to have sex. She then mentioned that someone had taken her money. I walked to the parking lot to call the watch commander and let him know that she had recanted her rape allegation. Witin a few minutes I was told that she told the SANE doctor that she had been raped. I called the watch commander back and told him she had changed her story back to being raped. I returned to the room where she was and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bathroom.
    [End of his interaction with the AV] My theory: She was not drunk, not deceptive; she was traumatized. She did not change her story. She was telling it in sequence and had not gotten to the bathroom part yet. Shelton misunderstood her. I think it is possible, and not unlikely from the evidence gathered so far. Just because we never heard before that she'd been groped doesn't mean she wsn't or couldn't have been.

    From Driver article, when he picked her up...
    "She just told me her name would be in the news.."
    Rather lucid prediction at 7am.

    Spartan,
    The other dancer admitted the accuser drank at the party and the officers at Kroger thought she was drunk. I don't think what the defense has suggested is out of sync with what we have so far.
    I agree with this. I think she was intoxicated and probably impaired when she left the house. My point is three witnesses rejecting that she came to the party that way although defense claims the opposite.

    spartan posted:
    One other thing about this drivers statement. Who was taking care of the kids if they needed picking up? Were the kids alone?
    Even a question can display a negative, postive or neutral position. How about asking, "Does anyone know where her children were?" Her father claims they were with him.

    Kalidoggie posted:
    From Driver article, when he picked her up...
    "She just told me her name would be in the news.."
    Rather lucid prediction at 7am.
    Did the article say the driver heard that from the accuser in her first call? It's unclear in this article, do you have another source? From the article:Accuser seemed OK early on, driver says
    Taylor did not hear from her again until 7 a.m. the next day. She was at Duke Hospital.
    "She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids."
    He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later.
    "She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said.
    Maybe it was in the second call a week later after she had decided to go through with the charges and filed a police report.

    The man who drove her to 610 Buchanan was one of the 3 whose DNA was found in her. The accuser claimed she had had sex with her "boyfiend" and 2 drivers over Sunday and Monday. According to the 2 drivers with whom she had sex, they drove her to a total of 5 "dates" at hotels that weekend. Far from me to disparage a rape victim, but the visit to the driver's home and the shower before leaving could possibly mean a sex "date" similiar to the ones she has at hotels. It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex.

    Lora wrote:
    I think it is possible, and not unlikely from the evidence gathered so far. Just because we never heard before that she'd been groped doesn't mean she wsn't or couldn't have been.
    I agree the rape is still possible, but agaisnt these defendants? I think the identification is Nifong biggest problem. It is the only reason I can think of to hold back information. If Nifong had a smoking gun he would not hold it back. He would let it be known....to comfort the community, get witnesses to come forward, strike a plea bargin and even stop the criticism. Prosecutors have been guilty of over the years for holding back exculpatory evidence, not incriminating evidence. My take on the defense motion is that they think the Nifong is holding back exculpatory evidence, not incriminating evidence. If he has incriminating evidence and the Nifong thinks he is going to whip it out at trial, he has just set himself up for reversible error on appeal....in addition to the appellate issue already created by the multiple line-ups and procedure (if the judge allows the line-up identifications). I also find it interesting that the report is it is dated April 9, 2006, almost a month after this evening (March 13, 2006). It is the Nifong's handling of the case in the aggregate that is undermining the case the most. His actions and that of the investigators he is supervising have now created reasonable suspicion into the accuracy of the investigation, which increases the likelihood of reasonable doubt. Assuming a rape occurred, and it may have, it looks more and more like a 3rd year in student law office would do a better job than the Nifong.

    Margaret,
    It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex
    I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore"

    margaret wrote:
    The man who drove her to 610 Buchanan was one of the 3 whose DNA was found in her.
    He was listed by the accuser as one of three whose DNA might be a match for that found on a vaginal swab. Only one person's DNA matched - her boyfriend.

    Pat posted:
    It's intersting that the driver got lost finding 610 N. Broad. Evidently, there isn't an easily visible number on the house and the street numbering "system" is odd within the block.
    This may explain why Seligmann directed the cab to meet him at the intersection, rather than at the house.
    That might explain "half a block," why "a block and a half?" From abcnews.go.com:
    In a written statement to the defense also reviewed by ABC, a cabdriver confirms picking up Seligmann and a friend a block and a half from the party, and driving them to the bank.


    Lora wrote: My theory: She was not drunk, not deceptive; she was traumatized. She did not change her story. She was telling it in sequence and had not gotten to the bathroom part yet. Shelton misunderstood her. I think it is possible, and not unlikely from the evidence gathered so far. Just because we never heard before that she'd been groped doesn't mean she wsn't or couldn't have been. When was the AV pulled from a car and groped? When she arrived? Wouldn't the driver have noticed? After she was taken out to Roberts' car? There are witnesses to both times she would have been in a car, both of whom would have had no reason to cover up such an incident, and no one saw the AV being pulled from a car and groped. The "pulled from the car and groped" story simply could not have happened. If she were traumatized enough by something to invent that story, why couldn't she have been traumatized enough to invent the rape? Why wasn't it an ongoing process of invention? Another problem: The AV didn't say, "I wasn't raped until later." She told Shelton that she wasn't raped. Suggestive of an ongoing process of invention.

    Margaret said:
    The man who drove her to 610 Buchanan was one of the 3 whose DNA was found in her.
    I thought there was just one DNA found on her other than the people in the party. It was told to be boyfriend's. That was the info in the defense press conference. Did I miss some new information.

    Hicht quoted and then wrote: Margaret, It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore" Hicht, why were the two drivers tested to determine if their DNA was inside her?

    Hicht, they only found the boyfriend's DNA in her, but she was asked who could have contributed the DNA and she gave the cops her boyfriend and her two drivers' name.

    Kalidoggies posted:
    If Nifong had a smoking gun he would not hold it back. He would let it be known....to comfort the community, get witnesses to come forward, strike a plea bargin and even stop the criticism. Prosecutors have been guilty of over the years for holding back exculpatory evidence, not incriminating evidence.
    If Nifong believes he can get a conviction with what he's got and what he's legally holding, he doesn't need to reveal his hand to "comfort the community, get witnesses to come forward, strike a plea bargin or even stop the criticism." A conviction would take care of all that.

    IMHO wrote:
    "She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids." He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later. "She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said. He said he did not check on the accuser's children or tell her parents where she was. "I told her I would, but I didn't," he said. "I don't know her that well."
    I read it as refering to the morning as the article seems to speak in terms of the first morning, but there is some wiggle room for the second conversation.

    From the driver article: Taylor had known for a while that his guest was a dancer. He and a male friend had watched her perform at clubs in Smithfield and Hillsborough. I'm not sure if this conflicts with what was presumed to be her history in the sex industry (one audition four years ago, her first stripping job that night), but it suggests that her work was ongoing for some time. It would be interesting to go back and find out initial descriptions of the AV's career in the sex industry, who the sources were, and how they sync up to the driver's version of things.

    Lora wrote:
    My theory: She was not drunk, not deceptive; she was traumatized. She did not change her story. She was telling it in sequence and had not gotten to the bathroom part yet. Shelton misunderstood her.
    From Sgt. Shelton's account:
    She told me that no one forced her to have sex.
    Sgt. Shelton did not have a passing, casual conversation with her. It is/was his job to investigate the possibility of a crime being committed against her. He probably asked her several times if anything else happened. Not getting to the end of her narrative does not explain why she would TELL the detective that no one forced her to have sex.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#115)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 01:26:52 PM EST
    Hicth, I suspect downing the one and half drinks at the beginning of the dance session could probably put the accuser in a wasted state and possibly account for the comment by the defense of her wasted appearance at the beginning. Technically she didn't arrive that way but soon became that way. IMHO, You are correct about my position based on the question. I was not trying to be subtle. I just find it disturbing to ask some relative stranger to look in on the kids(actually pick them up).

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    It would be interesting to go back and find out initial descriptions of the AV's career in the sex industry, who the sources were, and how they sync up to the driver's version of things.
    All I recall hearing was her "job interview" the night, (how did Bob word that?)"she was apparently willing to kill a cop" and what she told the reporter after the Duke University lacrosse team party:
    The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.
    "It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.
    This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#117)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 01:34:39 PM EST
    Was the accuser working for the escort service and stripping at the local strip joints?

    Posted by Hicht:
    Margaret,
    It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex
    I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore"
    Your interpretation of the post reveals your attitude and insults the AV/FA. I read Margaret's comment to more in the light of the driver doing her a favor and she appreciates it because it saved her $20-$30, she showered, she had a fashion show, allowed her to continue hiding her career from dad and she had sex willingly.

    From the article:
    Taylor did not hear from her again until 7 a.m. the next day. She was at Duke Hospital.
    "She was distraught," he said. "I could tell that she was crying. She asked me to pick up her kids."
    He said she didn't mention being attacked in that conversation or in a call more than a week later.
    "She just told me her name would be in the news," Taylor said.
    Kalidoggie posted:
    I read it as refering to the morning as the article seems to speak in terms of the first morning, but there is some wiggle room for the second conversation.
    Does one make more sense than the other - about seven hours after the alleged rape or "more than a week later?" To me, it makes more sense she would say it more than a week later after she had decided to press charges, filed a police report, the house had been searched, three players had been interviewed and she had, maybe, already given an interview to a reporter. From the News & Observer: Dancer gives details of ordeal
    The woman who says she was raped last week by three members of the Duke University lacrosse team thought she would be dancing for five men at a bachelor party, she said Friday. But when she arrived that night, she found herself surrounded by more than 40.


    Kalidoggie
    I read Margaret's comment to more in the light of the driver doing her a favor and she appreciates it because it saved her $20-$30, she showered, she had a fashion show, allowed her to continue hiding her career from dad and she had sex willingly.
    Relax. I take it back the comment I made about Margeret's post. She just used a wrong information (saying that they found driver's DNA in her)and instead of stating her point very clearly she speculated if she slept with him for 20 or 30 bucks. I accept it was too harsh to say her intention is to insult her.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#121)
    by january on Sat May 27, 2006 at 02:14:05 PM EST
    Hicht wrote
    I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore"
    You're the one who used the word "whore." Chew2 would accuse you of symbolic vilification.

    jauary, I justed stated I was mistaken with my comment.

    IMHO wrote:
    Does one make more sense than the other - about seven hours after the alleged rape or "more than a week later?"
    I agreed with you in my prior post that it could be read both ways. I see one, you see the other. Ease off the caffine, don't go cold turkey.

    Hicht...no worries.

    Margaret posted:
    It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex
    Hicht posted (to Margaret):
    I wonder what is your point about the case in your post other than insulting her by saying she is a "20-dollar whore."
    Kali posted (to Hicht):
    Your interpretation of the post reveals your attitude and insults the AV/FA.
    I read Margaret's comment to more in the light of the driver doing her a favor and she appreciates it because it saved her $20-$30, she showered, she had a fashion show, allowed her to continue hiding her career from dad and she had sex willingly.
    Kali, Read margaret's post. She is not suggesting it was a thank you for a favor. She is suggesting it is similar to the sex dates the accuser has at hotels. Which in that case, Margaret is talking about money for sex. She says "rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex." Margaret posted:
    Far from me to disparage a rape victim, but the visit to the driver's home and the shower before leaving could possibly mean a sex "date" similiar to the ones she has at hotels.
    It could be that rather than paying the drivers with 20 or 30 bucks for the rides she pays them with sex.
    If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money. Once again, I'm with Hicht.

    Kali posted:
    I agreed with you in my prior post that it could be read both ways. I see one, you see the other. Ease off the caffine, don't go cold turkey.
    Right down the middle? You don't see that it might make more sense if she said, "her name would be in the news", AFTER she had already given an interview to a reporter rather 7 hours after the alleged attack? No caffine needed, Kali. Keep trying.

    IMHO wrote:
    If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money.
    I guess you didn't learn anything from the removal of your posts and my responses last night about personal attacks.
    Once again, I'm with Hicht.
    Good for you! You're the best!! TL.....I request a warning to IMHO and the continued personal attacks. Clearly removing the posts did not work.

    IMHO wrote:
    If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money.
    I guess you didn't learn anything from the removal of your posts and my responses last night about personal attacks.
    Once again, I'm with Hicht.
    Good for you! You're the best!! TL.....I request a warning to IMHO and the continued personal attacks. Clearly removing the posts did not work.

    If you have any first hand experience with how strippers, escorts, hookers, etc repay the kindness of their friends, that may be what is effecting your interpretation, but I think Margaret is pretty clear in saying the accuser may be bartering sex for a ride at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. I think Hickt's "20-dollar whore" comment is on the money.
    IMHO, thanks. I think there is a lot of posts that trying to degrade and insult AV, while trying to make a point. Even though I still think there are elements of insult against AV in that post, I see it as a waste of time discussing about this instead of case.

    IMHO:
    Posted by Hicht May 27, 2006 03:17 PM
    jauary, I justed stated I was mistaken with my comment
    .
    I will assume you were mistaken too. You're the best!!!

    Kalidoggie,
    IMHO, thanks. I think there is a lot of posts that trying to degrade and insult AV, while trying to make a point. Even though I still think there are elements of insult against AV in that post, I see it as a waste of time discussing about this instead of case.


    Hicht wrote:
    I see it as a waste of time discussing about this instead of case.
    Agreed. You made a decent point, others saw it differently....opinons were expressed...agree to disagree....move on and dicuss the case. That's the point of this blog isn't it? IMHO chimed in for the sole purpose of attacking me. The personal attacks need to stop.

    Kalidoggie posted:
    I guess you didn't learn anything from the removal of your posts and my responses last night about personal attacks.
    What are you talking about? You are making a declaration about Hicht's attitude here: Kali posted (to Hicht)
    Your interpretation of the post reveals your attitude and insults the AV/FA.
    I was only ASKING if you may have experiences that may have shaped your interpretation of Margaret's post. I didn't make a declaration that your attitude was insulting as you did with Hicht. Sheesh.

    Thanks to everyone regarding my post last night about my son's graduation. I know it was not germane to the issue of the guilt of these three defendants, but an iminent empty nest can make a mother anxious about a lot of things. Yes, I have spoken to him, and to my daughter about this case, cautionary tales to him and curiosity from her. PB: I'll say this once more and then be done with it. Yes, I did give a link to a site that does use the AV's full name, specifically to the blogger's "timeline" because even though he is completely pro-defense, his timeline gave links to his times and I found that helpful in relocating statements I remembered but not the source. I also, after posting the link, apologized because I meant to say, when I posted it, that he does use the AV's name because I knew that would offend some people here. And, yes, I did, on one occasion, refer to the AV by her first name. But your incredulity that I was sincere in saying that I used it to humanize her is ill-founded. Why do you think prosecutors prefer to refer to "the Defendant" and defense attorneys, whenever possible, use their client's real name? The former does so do dehumanize the defendant, to help the jury to see him or her as just that: a Defendant, and not a person just like them. The latter for the same reason, in reverse, wants to humanize them, make the jury see them as people and not criminal defendants. The "AV" or the "FA" (which semantic battle was ongoing the evening I used her first name) or "the stripper" or the "student" or the "accuser" or the "dancer" or any other label dehumanizes her to some extent. Each is or may be a part of what she is, but even taken altogether, they do not tell anyone who she is. My intentions may have had unintended consequences and may have been wrong-headed, but they were not dishonorable. I respect the policy of this board to refrain from the use of even a part of the AV's name (although I am still sincerely confused as to any actual harm that you believe I did to her in using her first name here). I have more sympathy for her than you can imagine, PB.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#135)
    by ding7777 on Sat May 27, 2006 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    to inmyhumbleopinion
    I didn't specify which police officer determined she was "passed out drunk"
    the implication seems obvious since you twice used the "passed out drunk" comment in response to Sgt Shelton's written report of "smelling salts"
    That might explain "half a block," why "a block and a half?"
    Maybe that's how far away the intersection is?

    imho posted:
    That might explain "half a block," why "a block and a half?"
    ding7777 posted:
    Maybe that's how far away the intersection is?
    610 N. Buchanan is between W. Markham Ave. and Urban Ave. Either of those intersections would have been half a block away. N. Buchanan, being a main drag along the Duke wall, would have been easier to find than Watts. The cab, reportedly, picked up Seligmann a block and a half away at Watts St. and Urban Ave. I'm not implying there was anything sinster about it, just trying to keep the facts straight.

    Talking about taking things out of context! IMHO, in the 2:31pm post, somehow connected her audition with my saying she was willing to kill a cop. Please, she wasn't auditioning for the mafia. She was auditioning for a strip club. Afterwards she stole the taxicab, took the police on a wild chase and near the end tried to run over a cop, according to the cop. Let's keep our perspective here. Yes, maybe she was only trying to maim him with the car or scare him, but intentional car versus person generally leads to dire results for the person.

    imho posted:
    I'm not implying there was anything sinster about it, just trying to keep the facts straight.
    I believe that Seligmann was meeting another player, Robert Wellington, to share a cabride. Wellington, at least, has provided an affidavit to that effect, but of course it's always possible that he, along with the cabbie and whatever cellphone service Seligmann uses, is part of the grand conspiracy to provide Seligmann with an alibi.

    inmyhumbleopinion posted:
    I didn't specify which police officer determined she was "passed out drunk"
    ding777 posted:
    the implication seems obvious since you twice used the "passed out drunk" comment in response to Sgt Shelton's written report of "smelling salts"
    The reason I was using the quote in response to Sgt Shelton's written report of "smelling salts" is my point was Sgt. Shelton seemed to be saying she was pretending to be unconsious. I was asking if the police officer that said she was "passed out drunk" was wrong. Here is what I said:
    So the police officer was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?"
    I did not post,"So Sgt Shelton was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?" Three officers responed. I don't know who spoke to the dispatcher. I didn't specify which police officer determined she was "passed out drunk" because I do not know which officer did. It may have been Sgt. Shelton. I don't know. I already explained this. Would you feel better if I had said,"So Sgt Shelton was wrong when he determined she was "passed out drunk?" It seems Alan would have been, but I didn't. I've been wrong before. When I'm wrong I admit it. It's not hard, I'm just not wrong here.

    Been away for a while... How do we know that the AV's boyfriend (DNA donor) is not Brian Taylor (the night driver)? If the two are not the same person, The News&Observer story about Brian, where the AV asks him to pick up her kids, may imply that the AV was hiding her sex work from her boyfriend, too. Do you suppose neither her parents nor her boyfriend knew her occupation? On another note, it seems the AV has plenty of family here in Durham. Thank God for that. With the personal hell she must be living, her kids need all the support they can get.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Talking about taking things out of context! IMHO, in the 2:31pm post, somehow connected her audition with my saying she was willing to kill a cop.
    hahahahaha, I was just teasing you, Bob. Even as a joke, I didn't mean to imply you thought she was auditioning for the Mafia. hahaahahaha I see I could have written that better, but it was in reference to her history in the "sex industry." What a way to go. Here's what I wrote, your quote is in bold:
    All I recall hearing was her "job interview" the night, (how did Bob word that?)"she was apparently willing to kill a cop" and what she told the reporter after the Duke University lacrosse team party:


    fillintheblanks:
    How do we know that the AV's boyfriend (DNA donor) is not Brian Taylor (the night driver)?
    The accuser's father said her boyfriend brought her home from the hospital, so it isn't this guy.

    Thanks, imho.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#144)
    by spartan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 05:03:48 PM EST
    In the attachment to the recent defense motion, there is as signed document by officer Clayton regarding the photo ID process. In that document the officer stated to the accuser that he does not know if the persons under investigation are in the photos. Is that not a little dishonest since he has been investigating the whole LAX team and those are the pictures he placed in the photo ID? I thought the actual process requires a third party administering the id process to be truly "blinded" to the individuals in the line-up.

    Hi khartoum, I read that there is another lacrosse house at 1103 Urban Street, at the intersection of Watts and Urban. Wellington said he and Seligmann left 610 N. Buchanan together: "I was with Reade the entire time from when we left the house on 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. until we exited the taxi van at the end of the fire lane a few minutes before 12:46 a.m. to enter our dorms."

    I don't think that there's too big a difference between being being passed out and being so drunk you don't want to get out of someone else's car. In either case, Roberts had to get the assistance of the cops. Very soon after the cops got there the AV was conscious, but holding onto the brake (or steering wheel) to prevent being pulled out.

    You screwed the pooch on that one, rogan1313. You wanted this: SOUTH DAKOTA HIGHWAY PATROL ROLL CALL PERIOD ENDING 04/22/2006 I usually just type in the HTML ... it's quicker.

    rogan1313's link rogan1313 posted:
    Would the AV thus also have been arrested for DUI in North Carolina if she tested above the limit when found by police behind the wheel?
    She would in my state, but the accuser was not behind the wheel, she was riding shotgun.

    Re: unconsciousness/drunkenness Was the initial "passed out drunk" comment made by an officer who had actually attempted interaction with the AV, or was it radio chatter. . essentially repeating, like a game of telephone, what he'd been told by the security guard, who'd gotten information from Kim? So the officer with the ammonia might have had an obligation to actually establish her condition, by going through prescribed step-by-steps to rouse her from whatever stupor she appeared to be in? As a speculative scenario, maybe the first officer even talks to Kim/the security guard, gets their story (just drunk, not ill or whatever), looks in the window, sees eyes closed, judges the stories to jibe, and radios it in. It's not until maybe a different car comes to take her to the substance abuse facility that anyone uniformed actually tries to interact with her, at which time the smelling salt issue can be analyzed w/out assuming the first officer is intentionally giving misinformatin. But the above is certainlly all conjecture, so I'm not sure if it jibes at all with known police procedure. Would this reasonably resolve questions of inconsistency between initial impressions of her state of coherence?

    az,
    Yes, I was guilty of enjoying myself too much yesterday when type&think offered up too many opportunities to push some buttons.
    So glad to have been of service!

    thinkandtype opines:
    It's not until maybe a different car comes to take her to the substance abuse facility that anyone uniformed actually tries to interact with her, at which time the smelling salt issue can be analyzed w/out assuming the first officer is intentionally giving misinformatin.
    Read Sgt Shelton's report that is attached to the PDF pointed to by this thread or the previous thread. Shelton claims to have been the first on the scene and to have talked to 'Kym' and the security guard (not in that order) and that he used 'ammonia capsules' to gain her attention. Also, another officer had arrived by that time. He further states that Officer Barfield helped him (Shelton) get the AV into Barfield's patrol car and they then discussed what to do with her, deciding to take her to the Access Center. It would appear from that that there was only two cops on the scene, and that one of them had to have been the one to radio in the report. My guess is that it was Shelton as first responder.

    and that he used 'ammonia capsules' to gain her attention
    To aviod confusion, that should have been the AV's

    Ohhh gotcha, that makes sense then. That makes it easier to ask a more general follow-up question. Are there biological differences between drunken sleeping (as in getting intoxicated, then falling asleep, but still while relatively aware of one's surroundings) and "passed out/blacked out" drunk? Like intoxicated to the point they might be awake/interactive, but are more likely unconscious--the kind of drunk where someone would be likely to say "oh after such and such a point, I blacked out, I can't remember what happened. . ."? Like does the latter require a different biological state of impairment that would make one's reaction to smelling salts different from the former? Or is the only difference if someone had his/her eyes closed, but was still "awake"?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#154)
    by Lora on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:14:35 PM EST
    Bob, The AV reported that she had been pulled out of the car and groped after she'd already performed and left (apparently due to the racial and broomstick comments), and before the alleged assault. She said she went to Kim's car and they had an argument about going back inside. Kim wanted to, but she did not. It was then that she reported she'd been pulled out of the car and groped. This would fit with her being "persuaded" to go back inside, as has been reported before. I can see a misunderstanding: (made-up conversation): AV: A guy pulled me out of the car... Shelton: And then what? AV: He groped me... Shelton: What? Groped you? Is that it? AV: Yeah... Shelton: Groped, or raped? AV, Groped... Shelton: You weren't raped? When you were pulled from the car, did anyone rape you? AV: No... Shelton: (shakes head and walks off to make his call) AV: Wait... Who knows? But she is consistent except for that one time. I think, from what I've read, that the first time she said anything about what happened to her, she said she'd been raped, and it was at the first hospital. She only apparently changed her story once with Shelton which really could have been a misunderstanding. She went right back to the same story when she could speak to the SANE nurse/doctor again. Kali, Well I don't deny that Nifong was inappropriate and potentially harmed his case with his 40+ hours talking to the press. But I don't see faulting him for clamming up now. It would be worse if he kept talking.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#155)
    by Alan on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:29:17 PM EST
    Lora 'could have happened' is not beyond reasonable doubt. What equally could have happened, and is considerably more likely, is that a competent and experienced police officer knew what he was saying and hearing and could tell the difference between the word 'rape' and the word 'grope'. Shelton does not describe walking away from the AV before she finishes giving her story, any more than he describes anyone running out from the hospital to tell him that the AV is recanting her recantation of alleging rape after denying rape. You're looking to prove a rape beyond reasonable doubt. You need more than 'could have happened' based on details that do not appear in Shelton's report.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#156)
    by Lora on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:33:01 PM EST
    whoops forgot the money comment: ...Shelton: You weren't raped? When you were pulled from the car, did anyone rape you? AV: No...they took my money. Shelton: (shakes head and walks off to make his call)...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#157)
    by Lora on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:44:46 PM EST
    Alan, I'm not looking to prove a rape beyond reasonable doubt. I'm looking to see if the AV's story could be true, given what's been presented. So far, I don't see any serious challenges to it. This doesn't mean it's proof in a trial. My hypothetical scenario doesn't have him mixing up the two words, just clarifying what happened when the guy pulled her from the car, then thinking that was all there was to it. It seems a mix-up is reasonable to me. She didn't want to talk to him; I doubt he was Mr. Empathy. Ever talk to a police officer? First she's drunk. Then she's crazy. Now she's raped? Sheesh, what next? (I can hear him say.)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#158)
    by Lora on Sat May 27, 2006 at 09:52:03 PM EST
    Alan, You're right, Shelton doesn't describe anyone running out of the hospital to talk to him. He does say that within a few minutes of his call, someone from the hospital came to tell him she told the doctor she'd been raped. Close, but I did exaggerate slightly by accident.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#159)
    by cpinva on Sat May 27, 2006 at 11:22:42 PM EST
    Reasonable doubt means different things to different people. The fact that 45 of the people at the party were excluded as sources of the dna on the fingernail probably would have more significance to a numerate person like yourself than it would to a juror, who might not assign the number "zero" to such information.
    PB, you have alluded to being either an attorney, or in some way involved in the criminal justice system. if so, i feel sorry for any client's you have, if you truly think this "evidence", should it actually be allowed, won't be destroyed by the defense. even an incompetent attorney could easily shred this, which is why the evan's defense team isn't considering a plea bargain as we speak. bob in pacifica beat me to it, but he got the basics correct: given the circumstances surrounding the collection of the fake fingernail, and the lack of a 100% positive ID, were i a defense atty, i would be salivating at the prospect of cross on both the party that collected it at the scene, and the lab tech who did the DNA anaysis. neither can say, with certainty, that the DNA is evan's, or how it got there. with DNA, if you can't point the finger, with certainty nearing 100%, you have nothing, other than some yucky q-tips. want to place a small wager that, should this case actually go to trial, that DNA evidence doesn't show up on the prosecution's list? again, i have no vested interest in this case, other than to see justice done, for whatever that's worth. if a crime was committed, i want the guilty party(s) jailed, and the victim helped in any way possible. if a crime wasn't committed, i expect to see recompense to those falsely accused. so far, i'm not seeing much from the state.

    This article states that three officers responed to the Krogers 911 call:
    The security guard says on the recording that she wondered why the driver didn't take the alleged victim to the hospital or to the police station, both of which are closer to the scene of the party than the Kroger store. She mentions calling 911 and recalls that three officers arrived to the scene. Police documents verify that the 911 call took place at 1:22 a.m.
    It also states this:
    The security guard left the scene as police were questioning the alleged victim. According to police affidavits, the woman told police while she was in the Kroger parking lot that she had been sexually assaulted at a party.


    IMHO says:
    It also states this:
    The security guard left the scene as police were questioning the alleged victim. According to police affidavits, the woman told police while she was in the Kroger parking lot that she had been sexually assaulted at a party.
    Well, I guess the article is wrong or Sgt Shelton is mistaken or lied on his statement, or that is not really his statement on the PDF.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#162)
    by azbballfan on Sun May 28, 2006 at 01:03:02 AM EST
    thinkandtype, Thanks for the fun yesterday. While you had some good points, sometimes we find ourselves in positions which are impossible to defend from all sides. To Sharon and those who thought I was harsh on Sharon. Please reread her original post and tell me it isn't just plain creepy. Sharon, I've happily graduated two step daughters who went on to college. Unlike you, I could care less if those colleges were predominantly white or elitist. I find your comments on the pride you feel that your boy is attending a college you deem predominantly white and elitist rather disturbing. I know many fine Penn alumns who wholeheartedly disagree with you that the school is white and elite. The school attempts to accept the best candidates to better the community. Certainly Joe Pa has set a similar tone of expectations. Most importantly, both of my daughters found themselves to be victims of abuse by rather boorish football players who thought their high school status and pending college scholarships granted them special rights to treat women as they wished. You painted the son you are so proud of to be someone who could easily find themselves at the party in question. Just as you are proud of raising your son, I am quite proud that my step daughter kicked the living (**it) out of the boy who treated her poorly. In my community, a few other fathers decided to remind these boys (and their parents) that they were not men, buy boys. From time to time as children age, they need to be reminded that the world sometimes holds higher standards of conduct for those wishing to call themselves men. Graduating from high school doesn't make a boy a man. Learning to respect women, regardless of their racial or social status does.

    CPinva, You wrote:
    with DNA, if you can't point the finger, with certainty nearing 100%, you have nothing, other than some yucky q-tips.
    You said that. You wrote:
    bob in pacifica beat me to it, but he got the basics correct
    You mean his comment about wanting to smoke what I'm smoking? That's pretty basic. You wrote:
    want to place a small wager that, should this case actually go to trial, that DNA evidence doesn't show up on the prosecution's list?
    I think it will be used and is probative. It's not probative in and of itself, but the fact that all the participants at the party provided dna gives it a depth sufficient to make it admissible. You wrote:
    i feel sorry for any client's you have, if you truly think this "evidence", should it actually be allowed, won't be destroyed by the defense.
    That's kind of analogous to Bob's "what you're smoking" argument. Argument by pity. If the defense challenges the dna evidence, I suspect they will take a more substantive approach. The argument that the dna might not have come from Evans will certainly take a back seat to the argument that Evans got his dna on the fingernail in some other way than the accuser suggests. It already has. Joe Cheshire's mama didn't raise no dummies. He knows how dangerous that dna evidence is, which is why he uses the word "ridiculous" to describe it. Sharon, You wrote:
    I have more sympathy for [the AV] than you can imagine, PB.
    If your daughter were in the position that the AV is presently in, I have confidence you would not be pushing for her name to be released so that such trustworthy luminaries as Bob in Pacifica could publically match every prurient theory that wafts its way to his consciousness to her "humanized" face. By the way, I think it was Ricky who claimed I made some comment about your son... I can't remember doing that, but I am happy to now. I think he's made a great choice to go to Penn. I recommend spending as much time off-campus exploring the city as possible. Eat at the Melrose, buy food at the Italian market, go to a Jazz club where you're the only white person. When possible, choose your courses by professor, not by topic, as it is a big place, and not all the instructors are jewels. And don't be afraid to take on the hardest subjects.

    Sharon, Oh yes. And don't join a frat. It's like planting a seed where there's no water.

    Sharon, I can remember back in the eighties when members of one of the Penn fraternities sat in top hats along Locust walk holding up cards, like judges at a skating exhibition, ranking women as they walked by. For me that's sort of symbolic of the whole idea of fraternities, I think. They're places for people to discover their lesser selves.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Accuser First Claimed Grope, No (none / 0) (#167)
    by azbballfan on Sun May 28, 2006 at 01:42:39 AM EST
    TalkLeft, Thank you for providing your input from time to time. Certainly you must condemn the university for gross misconduct by admittting in their own report that they contributed to the obstruction of justice by telling the lacrosse team coach that his team was under investigation for rape. Sorry, but looking back at the chain of events and what someone could possibly do to taint an investigation beyond imagination, the Duke administration clearly crossed the DMZ zone on this one.

    PB -- the point is, the photos in the lineup should have included several people who were unconnected to the case who resembled her description of the attackers. They should not solely have been Duke lacrosse players. You can't turn the instruction around. She should have been advised the people she claims attacked her may or may not be among the photos she was about to view. That police didn't tell her the alleged attackers were in the lineup doesn't cure the defect. She should have been made to provide a detailed description of each of the three persons she claims attacked her. There then should have been three lineups, with each person in each lineup matching her description of that particular suspect. She should have been told at the beginning of each lineup that person who attacked her may or may not be in the lineup. After her selection, she should have been asked how sure she was the person she selected was a person who attacked her. One lineup consisting only of Duke players grossly violated these procedural guides which have been shown through many, many research projects during the last decade to reduce the risk of a mis-identification.

    azbballfan wrote:
    I know many fine Penn alumns who wholeheartedly disagree with you that the school is white and elite. The school attempts to accept the best candidates to better the community. Certainly Joe Pa has set a similar tone of expectations.
    Not sure what Joe Pa has to do with it. U Penn is an Ivy League school in Philadelphia. Joe Pa coaches at Penn State in State College, PA.

    TL, You wrote:
    You can't turn the instruction around.
    That's right. It's too late for that. The best we can do now is summarize the "instruction" accurately from the transcript when we report on it, so as to reduce further errors.

    Thanks, mik, for making one of my points to PB. As for the rest, PB: 1. The my "boy" v. "man" comments, you said:
    Graduating from high school doesn't make a boy a man. Learning to respect women, regardless of their racial or social status does.
    That was MY point: until my son, or any 19 year old male is called a "man" I want more than his age to be considered. Using your standards, who could call any of the party attendees men? Small point, so let's move on. 2. "White or elitist" university: I was NOT saying that I thought being predominantly one or the other, or both, of those things was something a school, at any level, should be proud of. I was simply pointing out one similarity between the school my son will be attending and Duke. But, yes, I am proud of my son that he had the qualifications to be accepted at Penn, especialy for Wharton, even if it means that he will not be attending a school with easier admissions criteria or more socio/ethnic diversity. It was the school he liked the most, for a number of reasons, out of the ones he visited. I was also proud, six years ago, of my daughter for choosing NYU, which is a more diverse school, and one I would characterize as more selective than elitist. 3. I hope, and am as sure as I can be, that my son is not and will not be, a "boorish" football player. But the fact of the matter is that some of his teammates are, and some of his friends are, the kind of guys who might hire a stripper, who might drink too much (underage), who might play their music much too loud much too late at night to the rightful annoyance of their neighbors, who are not always fine and upstanding individuals. Again, my point was the similarities between my son and the innocent Duke players. By "innocent" I mean any player who was at the party who did NOT do a single bad, much less criminal, thing to the AV. (Unless one wants to take the position that watching the "dancing" was bad, or pitching in his $20 to hire them was bad, and I can see an argument to be made about that.) But have I forbade him from hanging out with them, with the stereotypical jocks? No, that is not my parenting style, just as when my daughter had female friends who were not the kind of girls that I would have chosen because they, too, were "boorish" in their own way. I trust the way I have raised both of my children to make their own choices in friends: eventually they will see the same flaws in their friends that I do, and will learn more by deciding, for themselves, that they can find better quality people to associate with. 4. You said:
    If your daughter were in the position that the AV is presently in, I have confidence you would not be pushing for her name to be released . . .
    I have NEVER, not once, even suggested it should be, much less pushed to have the AV's name released. I have, I will admit, found the freedom with which the accused's personal information is spread across every form of media, found the frequency with which their photos and video of them are shown to be unfair to them. I do wish that their would be some protection for them, unless and until they are convicted. The most I have done, regarding the AV's identity is (a) use her first, and only her first, name, and (b) give a link to a site that does use her full name, not to broadcast her name but because the site gave helpful, to me, links itself. Believe that or not, as you wish, but it is the truth. I am sorry, truly, that your step-daughters had to experience any form of sexual abuse or assault. I hope it didn't go as far for them as it did for me. But I hope they, and you, do not think that it could not just as easily have been a valedictorian with a 800 math SAT score who assaulted them. I would hope that you would not now have the attitude that football players are more likely to be guilty of sexual assault than any other group. And I would especially hope that you are not, now, imputing the guilt of the boys/men who hurt your step-daughters to the three lacrosse players accused in this case.

    Sunday Morning Essay I think it's Lora who believes that the AV wasn't intoxicated but in some kind of shock. So who pulled the AV from the car? Not anyone when she arrived at the party. Not when she and Roberts first walked out, and not when she was helped into the car at the end of her party. The only time she was pulled out of a car that night was when the cops pulled her out of Roberts' car in the Kroger's parking lot. Was she claiming that the cops pulled her out of the car and groped her but did not rape her? Was she telling them what they were doing? This isn't how people in shock tend to reformulate what happened to them. This is how someone who's very intoxicated tries to invent an explanation as to how she arrived at this situation of being taken into custody by the police. By the way, is the pulling out of the car and being groped part of her story still a part of her story? I don't recall that Nifong ever mentioned that the AV had been pulled from a car and groped in any of his moving papers. So did she recant that part of her story or did she and the police and the personnel at the hospital just edit that out as an early version of her night? Did whoever made the decision to move forward with the investigation look through her different stories that night? Okay, let's toss out the the pulled out of the car and groped part. Let's throw out the no rape part. Let's throw out the twenty rapists part. We'll settle on her being raped by three guys in the bathroom. At a certain point, someone in charge should have known about the differing versions of the evening that the AV presented from Kroger's through her hospital stay. The Duke report states that there was a belief among the law enforcement officers that nothing much would come out of this case because the AV kept changing her story. This is partially confirmed with the incomplete discovery and the pieces of information offered to the defense. At some point, I'd guess on the morning of the 14th, someone in police department decided that a crime had probably or at least possibly been committed. Did whoever decided to pursue the investigation know of the AV's different accounts of the evening? There would be an obligation to investigate any claim of rape, but wouldn't there also be an obligation to make some kind of judgment as to the AV's reliability? Did that person in charge of the investigation know of the AV's history of charging men with criminal acts on her person and then not pursuing them? Would her history of filing criminal charges be somehow sealed from police investigators? Seems unlikely, but perhaps it's easier to pull up a person's criminal record on police computer rather than a person's charges against others. So was the AV's criminal record punched up on the computer during the process of investigating the rape? You'd think they would be able to review the "stolen taxicab/driving while under the influence/leading the police on a wild chase/attempting to run over a cop with the stolen cab" case. I'm not saying that stealing a taxicab precludes someone from being raped. I'm saying the investigator should have thought, Last night a very intoxicated exotic dancer claimed, amid various versions of her story, to have been raped. This morning I have a file showing her arrest. Can I glean anything from these two incidents? Would the file explain the whys about how these felonies were plea-bargained down to misdemeanors? If there was some claim of diminished capacity, like there was some kind of preexisting mental condition, would that have been part of the records that the cops would have access to? I ask these questions because at some point Nifong had been running the Durham PD temporarily in the chief's absence. At some point he became involved in the investigation. I guess I'm looking for why, considering what now appears to be a very unreliable witness, the Durham PD and DA decided to pursue this case while ignoring or discounting warning signs from the AV's past. At some point early on the AV should have been interviewed by a police investigator who would have tried to clarify why there were so many discrepancies in her story. How did you become intoxicated? If she claimed that she was drugged, then the tox test should have gone forward. If she refused having the tox test run, that should have weighed against her version of events. What about the groping, pulled out of the car, twenty versus three versus no rape discrepancies? What went wrong with this investigation? It's easy to imagine that Nifong saw this as a way to boost his numbers in the primary, but was that the explanation to all this? If it was only Nifong's political ambitions that would explain so many apparently bad decisions and oversights in the investigation, would that suggest that there are a number of honest, offended cops who are going to step up and eventually blow the whistle on the DA's own wall of silence?

    Sharon, You have attributed quite a few remarks to me that probably are more appropriately addressed to the person that made them. For example: 1. I know the difference between U of P and Penn State. 2. I've never discussed what makes boys men and what doesn't. 3. I never took your remark about Penn being white and/or elitist as a sign that you take pride in either of those qualities. 4. No stepdaughters of mine have ever kicked the sh*t out of any "boorish" football players. As far as your uses/abuses of the accuser's name, I have pretty much had my say on that topic and am satisfied to let the record speak for itself.

    Bob:
    At a certain point, someone in charge should have known about the differing versions of the evening that the AV presented from Kroger's through her hospital stay. The Duke report states that there was a belief among the law enforcement officers that nothing much would come out of this case because the AV kept changing her story. This is partially confirmed with the incomplete discovery and the pieces of information offered to the defense.
    This is a small point, but it appears that she said nothing at Krogers. It wasn't until she was on her way to the Access Center that she started making allegations of sexual misconduct on the part of other people.

    PB, Sharon: No reason to get into a dust-up about personal matters unrelated to the case. There were misunderstandings. Congratulations to all parents whose children are moving through their lives. Now, back to the case.

    beenaround, I used the Kroger's part of the evening only because at least one story said she had claimed to have been assaulted there. My point was only that over the course of the evening during her interactions with law enforcement and hospital personnel she threw out a number of different versions of events.

    beenaround, What about the bigger question? How did the PD and DA come to decide to pursue this without heeding all the warning signs coming from the AV?

    My apologies, PB: I confused you with azbball as being the author of the post that set me off this morning. Mea culpa, BIG TIME. Extremely careless on my part, so thank you for your measured, reasonable, and rational response to my mistake. (Something all of us here would be well-advised to emulate, whenever possible). And thanks for the suggestions about Penn and its environs. Once again I am sending a child of mine off to a "big, bad city," far away from me and one I know little about as a practical matter. Fighting the urge to tighten the apron strings instead of loosen them, knowing I am setting him loose on the world, letting the broader world have a shot at him, and hoping I have prepared him well for whatever is to come for him. To the entire board: before I find myself nominated for a Mike & Mike in the Morning (ESPN radio) "Just Shut Up Award," I will try to refrain from using this board, and this case, to assuage my maternal fears and nightmares that have, at best, only a tangential and anecdotal bearing on the facts in issue.

    No problem, Sharon. You rock. We love you. Now, did you read my Sunday essay? What thinks you?

    Well-thought out essay, Bob, and well-presented. Does anyone other than I wonder why there were no simple assault charges filed against either Finnerty or Evans, or Seligman, for that matter? If the AV was choked, strangled, beaten, punched by someone in that bathroom, why not charge it?

    Hi Bob in P. You wrote:
    I guess I'm looking for why, considering what now appears to be a very unreliable witness, the Durham PD and DA decided to pursue this case while ignoring or discounting warning signs from the AV's past.
    But it's right in front of you, Bob. Once the accuser told her story, people realized that they had leaped to judgment about her. And once she got it together enough to tell the story in detail, people found it credible. And once they heard the story as told by the three captains, it became more credible, not less credible. Portraying her as a drunk, mentally ill, sexually active, lying prostitute with a criminal record is fun, I'm sure, and it's something police are just as inclined to do as you are. But they've actually had the chance to hear her tell her story in ways you haven't. That's the only significant different I can see between you and Nifong.

    Should have completed my thought: If the AV's face or neck or non-genital areas did, in fact, appear bruised, contused, swollen, I could see a scenario where she was, in fact, dragged into a bathroom, brutalized but not raped. No DNA from them inside her? No problem, just look at the damage to her body in other ways. DNA on/under the nail: consistent with an assault. I can see a jury finding reasonable doubt as the to the sexual assault charges, but feeling that SOMETHING must have happened, and convicting on a lesser charge. Not the conviction Nifong wants, maybe, but a conviction and a vindication, of both him and the AV nonetheless.

    From the abc.com article:
    She mentions calling 911 and recalls that three officers arrived to the scene. Police documents verify that the 911 call took place at 1:22 a.m.
    beenaround posted:
    Well, I guess the article is wrong or Sgt Shelton is mistaken or lied on his statement, or that is not really his statement on the PDF.
    Sgt. Shelton's report states:
    I directed officer Barfield to transport her there. Officer Stewart followed officer Barfield to Durham Access Center to assist if needed.


    PB wrote: Portraying her as a drunk, mentally ill, sexually active, lying prostitute with a criminal record is fun With the exception of Lora, who thinks that the AV was sober the night of the alleged rape? She certainly has a history of getting drunk and acting out criminally. Regarding mental illness, the AV was hospitalized a year ago for mental illness. I didn't mention sexually active, but the AV, when none of the lacrosse players' DNA matched the semen found in her, she gave her boyfriend and two "drivers" as possible sources of the DNA. The drivers took her to one-on-ones for which she was paid. I don't think it's much of a stretch to consider her both sexually active and a prostitute. Regarding whether or not she lies, just look at the numerous different versions of what she herself claimed to have happened that night. Whatever version you settle on as truth means the other versions are lies. I don't find it fun to see someone who is willing to ruin other people's lives in order to resolve her own problems. People who slow down to look when driving past traffic accidents don't think it's fun. They are attracted to its awfulness. +++ You offer this to explain how the police determined her story was legit: Once the accuser told her story, people realized that they had leaped to judgment about her. And once she got it together enough to tell the story in detail, people found it credible. So it was the details? What about her differing versions? Because she had now "got it together enough" they just ignored her previous versions? Did anyone ask, "If you are now claiming rape, why did you say you weren't raped here and here?" It may not be appropriate for the SANE nurse to ask, but at some point in the police investigation someone should have been asking her to clarify how she came out with at least three different stories that night suggesting various degrees of sexual assault. Being "together enough" to give a coherent story isn't the same as being a trustworthy teller of truth.

    Sharon, You wrote:
    If the AV was choked, strangled, beaten, punched by someone in that bathroom, why not charge it?
    And what about the robbery? The AV said they took her money. A good dime novel should be written about a DA who charges some college students on a relatively bogus rape claim as a means of getting discovery on a less significant robbery and assault charge. The kids are so at risk of jail time for the rape that they are forced into testifying about the robbery without immunity. Because the assault and robbery charges were not bundled with the rape charges, double jeopardy did not apply when they were acquitted. Fantasy, but a good read.

    It's the affidavit in support of the search warrant that says the AV reported, in the Kroger lot, that she was raped at 610 Buchanan. But if that were so, why would they have transported her to the access center and not directly to the hospital? I've had a problem with that part of the affidavit for a long time, posted about it at least once.

    Sharon, the easiest explanation is that the search warrant wasn't correct. I think for purposes of a search warrant, timelines don't have to be as specific as allegations of a crime. Of course, it opens up the idea that maybe other moving papers weren't correct on some points either.

    Sharon and PB, it is curious that neither simple assault charges (separate from rape) nor robbery charges were filed against anyone. Did the police review the injuries and already decide that those injuries didn't occur from anything that happened at Buchanan? Unlikely. Same with the money. So why not charge them with those things too? If there was physical evidence supporting an assault, why not? If the AV claimed she was robbed, why not? If the police decided that her story about the theft of her money was unreliable, for what reason? Because she had been so intoxicated as to be unbelievable? Because Roberts could have taken the money from her? If the decision not to charge anyone with theft was based on the AV's unreliability, was the evidence of rape so strong? Doesn't seem to be now.

    Bob in Pacifica, You wrote:
    So it was the details? What about her differing versions? Because she had now "got it together enough" they just ignored her previous versions? Did anyone ask, "If you are now claiming rape, why did you say you weren't raped here and here?"
    I find it harder to imagine that they didn't than to imagine they did. The thing about these "differing stories" is that you are hearing these stories not from the accused, but from various summaries that people have written. As a student of history, I've learned to view such second-hand accounts with skepticism. By way of an example, we need go no further than this board. A short time ago, you made the claim that I think false accusations are okay. Now somebody reading the board might think that I actually believe false accusations are okay as a result of that statement. But if they asked me what I think, rather than getting that information second-hand from you, they'd find they were incorrect. It's not that you are a liar, or a drunk, or mentally ill, or, god forbid, sexually active. It's just that you were mistaken. No harm, no foul.

    I read and reread the whole 3 page report by Sgt. Shelton, and two things stand out in it pretty clearly on page 3. 1) Sgt. Shelton is an experienced, professional peace officer. He knows how to ask questions, he is very methodical in his approach, and he knows how to write a police report well -- such that it can be referred to later and cross examined in detail for specifics in clarifying further anything he has written. And he has been with her since the Kroger parking lot so he knows the story from the very beginning; nobody has to fill him in on the situation. 2) The AV's story on page 3 of the report -- which she gave at the hospital -- reeks of evasiveness. According to that story the two women are in the car outside the party, and... "Nikki" wants to go back in, but she does not. They have an argument about it, and "Nikki" apparently prevails. Some guys groped her, but no one forced her to have sex. She changes the topic away from sex and says that someone stole her money. None of this leads the AV to allege rape to Sgt. Shelton. Sgt. Shelton leaves the hospital room to report to the Watch Commander that she has recanted her rape allegation. A few minutes later he is told that she has told the SANE nurse that she was raped. He goes back inside the hospital room and confronts her directly -- was she or was she not raped? She refuses to answer "Yes" or "No." "She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bathroom." She begins talking obliquely, as if she is stalling for time. She starts crying and saying "something" about "them" dragging her into the bathroom, but apparently won't be specific about any of it. She will tell a SANE doctor that she was raped if the police officer leaves the room, but she will not say the same thing if the police officer is present? Why not? This is unbelievably evasive.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    PB wrote: Portraying her as a drunk, mentally ill, sexually active, lying prostitute with a criminal record is fun
    PB, I can not believe you would join Bob in Pacifica in portraying the accuser as a drunk, mentally ill, sexually active, lying prostitute with a criminal record! And you think to do so is fun?. Oh, nevermind. I just read the whole sentence you posted. Bob's truncated version does totally change your meaning. Wasn't it just last week that Bob in Pacifica had a prolonged "dust up" [though mostly one-sided] about this very tactic? *tsk* *tsk*

    PB: Isn't that, to some degree, what we are all "guilty" of doing here? When we come up with alternate scenarios to fit the evidence and support our opinions at this point, aren't we in essence writing a novel that could make sense of the conflicting stories? Imagine having the luxury to create a character, not be forced to use the actual human beings embroiled in this case? We can all write a story that would satisfy one side or the other: make Nifong a dastardly, unethical political animal who will put his election ahead of the truth, or a crusader for the historically disenfranchised, a fighter for truth, justice, and the American way; make the AV an avaricious, sociopathic liar, or an innocent victim, a black woman once again the victim of the plantation mentality of white men; make Seligman the kind of sick bastard who would call his girlfriend while orally raping/sodomizing a black hooker, or a Jean Valjean being pursued by an evil Javert? But is Nifong that? Is this AV that? Is Seligman that? Chances are none of the "players" in this drama would fit seamlessly, in real life, those extremes. We just don't know enough, and at the same time we know too much. The ultimate question is not "could it have happened this way or that way," but did it?

    To finish the thought, if a police investigator on the stand says that, "Well, we determined that the AV was pretty intoxicated and that those non-sexual injuries were possibly caused by her falling down or stumbling into things," it would be an admission by the police against the AV's credibility. How would that same police investigator explain why robbery charges weren't pursued on the basis of the AV's story? By saying that we didn't believe her story about a robbery was true? We didn't see any evidence that it was true? If I recall events correctly, the three defendants were all charged after there was no DNA or other evidence connecting the AV's person with any of the students. At no time did the police or DA have anything other than the AV's eventual story that a gangrape had occurred. You could almost say that charging someone with simple assault and robbery has a higher standard than charging someone with rape.

    Not a bad filler story, even-handed at least: http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-739217.html

    Sharon, You wrote:
    Isn't that, to some degree, what we are all "guilty" of doing here? When we come up with alternate scenarios to fit the evidence and support our opinions at this point, aren't we in essence writing a novel that could make sense of the conflicting stories?
    While it's possible to come up with a filing system that allows us all to be put in the same drawer, I think there are better filing systems available that distinguish what "we" do here. We all are "modeling," that's true, but some of us are using inductive reasoning and some of us are using deductive reasoning. The deductive reasoners start with the outcome they prefer and work back to a model that supports it. That's what defense attorneys do, and its what many of the people posting here overtly do as well. Inductive reasoning involves searching through the problem space for the model that best fits the data. You see that less here. I think Hicht exhibits some of the features of an inductive reasoner, to his credit. And Inmyhumbleopinion, of course. The people who aren't wedded to a particular outcome. Then there are people who are doing inductive searches but only in one direction. Bob in Pacifica comes to mind. His search space only involves looking through the accuser's underwear drawer. Hopefully he won't get a disease.

    200 comments, time for a new thread.