it's this kind of "collateral damage" that ultimately loses the "war" for us.

He'll probobly be getting his pilots license in a couple of years.

As is the headline of the post.

"Iraqi Pregnant Woman" sounds like a Bushism.

"Iraqi Pregnant Woman" sounds like a Bushism. "Pregnant Iraqi Woman" would be more in keeping with standard English grammar.

Absolutely predictable, and absolutely tragic, no doubt about it. As is the headline of the post.

It was an accident. What would help is if the Left would try and support the troops in matters such as this.

The mother-to-be and her cousin were initially said by the US military to have been killed after their driver ignored repeated demands to stop while driving to a maternity hospital.
But a brief statement by the Joint Co-ordination Centre said the women had been killed by mistake en route to maternity hospital. [...] The military said their car had entered a clearly marked area near coalition troops at an observation post but shots were fired "to disable the vehicle" after it failed to stop despite repeated signals. [...] TV footage showed the women's bodies wrapped in sheets and lying on stretchers outside the Samarra Hospital, while residents pointed to bullet holes in the windscreen of the car.

this is only helping people who hate america. i dont think the iraq war is a good thing. but you're not helping by highlighting things like this. and your headling suggested that they intentinally killed a pregnant woman. they ran past a roadblock.

i am pregnatn now i think i would have a homebirth if i was in that kind of trouble. i would have a homebirth or i wuold leave iraq and try to sneak in the USA or another western country.

There is really nothing that can be said here.

"Pregnant Iraqi Woman" would be more in keeping with standard English grammar.

all you are doing is inflaming people and asking for a nuclear attackon america and it will be justified by saying america is the land of baby killers.

It's foolish to think that what passes for press and public opinion over here is ignored over there, IMO.

BAGHDAD, Iraq - As one U.S. politician charged Sunday that U.S. Marines had murdered 24 Iraqi civilians last fall, and press reports seemed to support the claim, the story remained a non-starter in Iraq. ... didn't come up when Iraq's parliament met on Sunday. The talking heads on Iraqi television issued no new calls for a U.S. troop withdrawal, as often happens after U.S. forces are seen to have made big mistakes. Even local papers ran no stories about possible murder charges against some Marines allegedly involved in the Nov. 19 shootings.

Either we start living up to our own ideals or the world will very soon compel us to do it. If, that is, they even think we're worth saving. More...

after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.

The husband made a very bad decision.

We are creating recruitment videos for anti-American terrorists. We are paying a trillion dollars to do this. We are losing our young men and women to do this. We have destroyed a country to do this.

(note: analogy originally from Zbinew Brzenski)

Patrick - I doubt very much that the average Iraqi pays any more attention to the press and public opinion here than they pay to the Iraqi media and news sources these days:

I would argue though that home front morale is important, and has been for thousands of years during war time.

Insurgent leaders are certainly aware of U.S. public opinion.

America isn't perfect, but we are still the best there ever was.

great,i'm always happy to cheer up freedom fighters

humanity does not transcend nationality.

Only the truly blind continue to make excuses for the corrupt.

Either we start living up to our own ideals or the world will very soon compel us to do it. If, that is, they even think we're worth saving. More...

SD - It excuses no crime, but it provides context. Try real hard and you can probably grasp the concept.

My comment to DonS posited that if he placed "humanity" first and ignored the requirements of society he would soon have anarchy. Our governing system is a balance between individual freedom and individual responsibility.

Humanity does not transcend nationality. Country and actions of that country still count. Because "humanity" by itself, or the professed belief that humanity can be viewed outside of the context of society, culture, social norms and goals, leads directly to anarchy.

Her dead unborn child will probably never even have a name, not to mention a life.

when somebody flys through a roadblock

Disabling the car will do nothing but get you killed if the guy inside has his finger on the bomb trigger!

Patrick, I know it's difficult to stay on topic on this thread without either condemning this atrocity and the mindset that lies behind it, which I notice you have not chosen to do, or excusing it.

Diversion and attempts to change the subject are all you have left?

As if a fetus has value to the left.... Now if Edgar was pro-life, that comment wouldn't smack so much of hypocrisy

Nice talk and all that but, you see Jim we come from different planets. I'm from planet "humanity transcends nationality". You're from planet "my country right or wrong".

You on the other hand value the state over humanity

"My country right or wrong"

SD - What I am telling you is that any thing we do, good and bad, must be placed into context of our past actions, and the intent of what we are now doing.

Our response was reasonable; there is nothing to blame the country for

No, I value both, and recognize that you can't have freedom without responsibility.

I noted, you can vote your beliefs. If humanity transcends nations, you would not be allowed to vote, because there would be no nation

I recognize the right of all people to have their country, their culture. My position is that within that context, the US is good and just.

I recognize the right of all people to have their country, their culture. My position is that within that context, the US is good and just.

Your point regarding religion's concept is accurate, but religion has no history of being able to govern justly or provide cultures that are just. I give you the early Catholic church and the Islamic faith as of then and now. At best religion has provided concepts of right and wrong that have moved into the culture and into the government.

As I noted above I did not say: "My country right or wrong" That was a claim made by DonS. I would appreciate more care reading by you

So I will ignore your snide remarks regarding pity. My advice is to save it for yourself and your own sins. I suspect you will need it as much as any of us when you stand to be judged.

What I am telling you is that any thing we do, good and bad, must be placed into context of our past actions, and the intent of what we are now doing. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to note that the alleged murders by the Marines was terrible, but the US is not "responsible." The individuals are. In this incident the husband drove into a prohibited zone. A terrible mistake by him. Our response was reasonable; there is nothing to blame the country for.

If DonS wants to agonize over what he sees as our evil ways he should understand that our system requires responsible actions by both sides.

a general rule the Left has focused on the individual's rights and the Right on rights of the State. As a Social Liberal I think both should move towards the other.

but religion has no history of being able to govern justly or provide cultures that are just.

As noted above I did not say:

"My country right or wrong" That was a claim made by DonS.

Any state that sells out human values for political expediency does not deserve the support of its people. In fact, the "people" have the duty to seek correction, in every way possible

Nice try Patrick. This thread is about a pregnant woman's murder

``I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped,'' he said.

Not attack a country that was no threat to begin with.

Any state that sells out human values for political expediency does not deserve the support of its people.

the Right the rights of the government in general. I don't think that point is arguable.

The cards speak for themselves.

``I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans.

The issue now at hand is the US definition versus the definition of the terrorist. I maintain that the US is better. Your opinion is your opinionYou write:

You may have answered, but I would still like to know if you also protested Waco, Ruby Ridge and Kosovo. BTW - I did. I saw no reason for the government's actions.

"state that sells out human values" . . .The devil is in the details. One man's expediency is another's necessary and proper actions.

Not attack a country that was no threat to begin with. US troops should not be there. If you want further explanation that that I refer you to my posts in the archives on this subject.

This thread is about a pregnant woman's murder.

In the past I've found you to be reasonable to discuss things with, but I'm about to add you to my list of people not worth engaging.

She was about to give birth. It was no longer a fetus or just a clump of tissue. As to the left, well, if we hated fetuses so much we wouldn't be reproducing and still around to annoy the likes of you.

SD - I thought you could only say, "US bad," 10 million and 1 times. Well, you have now exceeded that number. Congratulations.

If the influence and leadership of the US is lost to the world, then you will truly understand "institutionalized" religion.

The Great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign Nations is in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled, with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. . . .

'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign world. So far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements (I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy). I repeat it therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves, by suitable establishments, on a respectably defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Grown-ups, on the other hand, take such things in stride.

Peaches. Anything of substance to offer?

70% of the pop agree with soc, edger, Peaches me, et al. about the travesty this war is.

And as for the 70% - anyone who's been here for awhile knows that you are referring to this. But some pretend to not understand.

a general rule the Left has focused on the individual's rights and the Right on rights of the State.

The comment was about the rights of the government, not "states rights."

I concede it was not her husband, but her brother. Now, can you tell us what that has to do with the facts in this matter?

Sailor - As you know, I am not a right winger, nor a left winger, I am a Social Liberal who believes in a strong national defense.
That used to be a Democrat

As to firing to stop the car, there are two issues: One is whether there are any bullet holes in the engine area. If so, they tried to stop the car and either missed or decided they weren't stopping it that way and had to shoot into the passenger compartment.

How did it happen? Why did we sit on our hands and let our leaders initiate an unprovoked proxy war? A mushroom cloud over Cleveland delivered by a pipsqueak Iraq that couldn't even get an airplane in the air or a dilapidated tank outside its own borders without throwing a track? Gimme a break. How could the average John Doe let himself be deceived into believing that Saddam Hussein was really a threat? With Iran now in the crosshairs, I pray that our national amnesia is wearing off. I know that from coast to coast a growing number of people ­ especially many combat veterans like myself ­ feel helpless, confused, frightened, and completely out of the loop. Three years into Iraq, why do we still keep hearing the same refrain, pre-emptive war into the next generation? On and on and on it goes, but unfortunately our emperors in Washington treat middle Americans asking hard questions like bill collectors at a funeral or, publicly skewer them as extremists and traitors. And don't even think about asking about Israeli involvement in the disaster that Dubya calls a Middle Eastern policy. We in the older generation can help things along. First, turn off the televisions and study a little American history, like the parts repeatedly warning us about foreign entanglements and passionate attachments. Really think about what kind of America we're handing to our children. Organize geezer squads to buttonhole politicians, and enlist a slacker cavalry to rain e-mail on every bureaucrat in sight. Let them all know we don't care about the new world order and its Manifest Corporate Destiny. Tell Washington that unprovoked, pre-emptive wars go against the grain of everything that's American, and we're no longer going to give it the Good Homicidal Seal of Approval. Yes, it will take guts, but what's our alternative? Either we start living up to our own ideals or the world will very soon compel us to do it. If, that is, they even think we're worth saving. More...

Sailor. It depends. If the driver is dead or wounded

Squeaky. You know that the soldiers who shot at Sgrena's car knew it was her? You know that the car approached the roadblock cooperatively--go ahead and say so, since it didn't--and you know the troops really wanted to kill her?

Passengers shot in the head in order to stop the car which may be a suicide car bomb.

When Lyndon Johnson ran for Congress, legend says, he wanted to spread the rumor that his opponent was a pig-fu*ker. Johnson's campaign manager said, "Lyndon, you know he doesn't do that!" Johnson replied, "I know. I just want to make him deny it."

The narrowness of his vision is exactly how even the best and most humane soldier unwillingly becomes a monster, and the people who create war know this. Out of grief and rage, with the stench of his buddy's shredded flesh in his nostrils, the soldier stops asking questions and then begins making up his own rules with a rifle. He has touched the heart of darkness and there's no going back ever. Embracing the whore called war destroys morality, and doing all this in a dishonorable cause compounds the damage. ... That's why we who have been there must speak out forcefully. If it requires a stiff punch in the mouth to jump-start some addled neocon brains, so be it. And for anyone who gets their political truth from self-inflating whoopee cushions like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, it will come none too soon. To remain silent this time risks the loss of everything that our country stands for.

Excuse, cover up, lie, spin, hijack, divert, pass the buck, don't look at the elephant, do whatever it takes... but keep your heads buried firmly in the sand.

They will snarl and bite and say and do and destroy and kill anyone and attempt to excuse anything to avoid the cliff, even the most despicable actions imaginable, including the murdering of unarmed civilians and of children and of families, and now even pregnant women on their way to hospital to give birth, not realizing that these tactics are only a further extension of everything that they've been doing all along.

But you didn't mention Captain's Quarters, Powerline, and Misha. Look at them, have you?

The principle of criminal law in every civilized society has this in common: Any person who sways another to commit murder, any person who furnishes the lethal weapon for the purpose of the crime, any person who is an accessory to the crime -- is guilty.
...
But this trial has shown that under a national crisis, ordinary -- even able and extraordinary -- men can delude themselves into the commission of crimes so vast and heinous that they beggar the imagination. No one who has sat at through trial can ever forget them: men sterilized because of political belief; a mockery made of friendship and faith; the murder of children. How easily it can happen. There are those in our own country too who today speak of the "protection of country" -- of "survival." A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient -- to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is "survival as what?" A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! Before the people of the world, let it now be noted that here, in our decision, this is what we stand for: justice, truth, and the value of a single human being.

Im still waiting for that "Iraq and the WOT not being pursued with enough vigor" reason for negative approval ratings proof. Crickets..

The question was...show us evidence that some of Bush's disapproval numbers come from people unhappy with his lack of zeal on the war and on immigration.

Everybody knows your question is stupid. Schtoopid. It was designed to be stupid and distracting, which is also obvious.

...a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building. The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

"The right (broadly speaking) can't fathom why the left is driven into fits of rage over every Abu Ghraib, every Gitmo, every secret rendition, every breach of civil liberties, every shifting rationale for war, every soldier and civilian killed in that war, every Bush platitude in support of it, every attempt to squelch dissent. They see the left's protestations as appeasement of a ruthless enemy. For the left (broadly speaking), America's moral strength is of paramount importance; without it, all the brute force in the world won't keep us safe, defeat our enemies, and preserve our role as the world's moral leader. War hawks squeal about America-haters and traitors, heaping scorn on the so-called "blame America first" crowd, but they fail to comprehend that the left reserves the deepest disdain for those who squander our moral authority.

If I am right and the Repubs keep control of both houses, then for the next year following the elections and determinations of results you must address me as: "Mr. Jim" If I am wrong, then for the next year I must address you as: "Mr. Jondee." (Or Ms, or Mrs, or Miss as the case may be.)

Edger... Her dead unborn child will probably never even have a name...

Oh no? LOL How far will it go without a driver (pressing on the gas)?

On second thought...this might be the dumbest! Is it incomprehensible to you that a 'passenger' might be holding the bomb trigger?

Unfortunately, there are few polls on the subject because the polls taken don't ask the question.... No idea. However, the question of whether people are unhappy because the war is not being prosecuted with sufficient vigor is pretty clear. They are. The numbers are not clear, but maybe somebody will do a poll on the subject and you'll have to figure out a new excuse.

so i repeated "YOU CAN'T STOP A CAR BY KILLING THE PASSENGERS!"

70% of the pop agree with soc, edger, Peaches me, et al. about the travesty this war is.

passenger n. A person who travels in a conveyance, such as a car or train, without participating in its operation.