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Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed Beheaded

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:35:46 AM EST
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by TChris

An unconfirmed report from Iraq's Defense Ministry advises that the two U.S. soldiers who were reportedly captured by a group affiliated with al-Qaeda in Iraq have been found dead.

Update:

An Iraqi military official says bodies found showed signs of torture and of being killed in "a barbaric way.'' Mario Vasquez, Menchaca's uncle, said Army officials had told the family early this morning that the bodies of two uniformed soldiers had been found, both of them beheaded. He said the Army would be conducting DNA tests, but the family believes the men were Menchaca and Tucker.

The uncle of one of the fallen soldiers wants to know why the administration had no plan to win peace in Iraq:

"Because the U.S. government did not have a plan in place, my nephew has paid for it with his life," Ken MacKenzie, uncle of Army Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, told NBC's "Today" show.

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    Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed Beheaded | 109 comments (109 topical)
    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#3)
    by desertswine on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:21:29 AM EST
    Two more? "It's a number, and every time there's one of these 500 benchmarks people want something. The President would like the war to be over now." - Tony Snow

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:33:03 AM EST
    As with many wars, this one has descended into a morass of barbarity. All sides are guilty. AQ beheads, the militia under the control of the Interior Ministry of the new government uses electric drills on its captives as one way of torturing them, and the deeds of the US including AG and its killing of civilians has been well documented. Death squads are running free, some sponsered by the Interior Ministry. Ethnic cleansing is ongoing. How is peace going to come out of a situation in which all sides lack any humanity and there is no one to turn to for protection except your own barbaric group? Because of these acts not one group in Iraq has any standing with a different group. The illegal war of occupation and the resultant civil war will end only when enough people have been killed to leave one group standing and the others without enough fighters or will. This is the only way that wars of occupation and conquest end.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#5)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:33:56 AM EST
    Are you so naive as to think these guys would have been treated any differently? You have much to learn about this particular enemy! You don't know s**t. Now we have NO right to judge these fanatics or ANY one who sides against us. And that is a fast growing number of otherwise peaceful people. This is too much.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#6)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:38:59 AM EST
    Didn't take long, did it Soc? Light two more candles tonight and call the WH.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:43:15 AM EST
    BB, "Are you so naive as to think these guys would have been treated any differently? You have much to learn about this particular enemy!" Are you saying those who beheaded Pearl are the same enemy as those beheading the two servicemen? Can you prove it? I doubt it. How do you know the executioners were not just a "few bad apples"? One, Pearl, was a "non-combatant", an alleged journalist. The killers chose a legitimate form of swift death, for, whatever reason. Would you prefer he were beaten to death, waterboarded to death, forced to crap on himself repeatedly? the other two were POWs taken during a fight. Had we paid attention to the GC, at least our howls of protest would have credence, likely our boys would still be alive. Since we have been guilty of torture, I cannot see how we can claim any kind of high ground. We, thanks to fools like you, are no different than the terrorists. It was not even in the same country, one, Pakistan, is our friend, the other is Iraq, who is also our friend (though I don't know why). Why don't you ask your Repuke friends why those two boys died? For what "noble cause" did they die?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:45:32 AM EST
    Judging fanatics? Apparently, you are OK with beheading of Americans because we deserve it? We are occupying the country in an attempt to establish stability, not because we enjoy our boys and girls coming home in coffins.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:50:12 AM EST
    Che i was about to start my stopwatch, but the first pile showed up before I could press the button. Its going to be a long day of strawmen, american excetionialism, nationalism, outright racism, and my personal favorite, moral relativism. Beheading someone with a knife is barabric but blowing someones head clean off with a large gun is ok. And so the depravity continues.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#10)
    by Al on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:53:11 AM EST
    I'm sure these two men signed up to defend their country. I am still waiting to hear how the occupation of Iraq, for which they were beheaded, is a defence of the United States. Since the US occupied Iraq, what have been the gains and the losses compared to not occupying it? If the US had not occupied Iraq, what would have been the gains and the losses compared to occupying it?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#11)
    by Peaches on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:08:49 AM EST
    The killers chose a legitimate form of swift death, for, whatever reason.
    Sky-ho, Beheading someone while they are still alive may be a swift death, but I would not characterize it as legitimate. It is barbaric and it is not done out of mercy, but instead is meant to instill fear into the public and enemies. It qualifies as an act of terrorism. There is no justification for this act.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#12)
    by Al on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:12:34 AM EST
    A different post, on a somewhat different angle. The US military have made it quite clear that they will not observe the Geneva Conventions. They have set up secluded prison camps where prisoners are detained indefinitely and systematically abused and tortured. The CIA has set up a system for rendering prisoners to other countries in secret, where they are at least tortured. The government has made sure that military personnel are beyond the reach of the International Criminal Court. Troops in Iraq send photographs of body parts taken as trophies to porn sites. Meanwhile, in countries where the US military wants to conduct joint exercises with the local military, they demand complete immunity from criminal prosecution for their soldiers. So, caveat recruitee: You should know that your side respects no rules. If you are captured, you are completely on your own.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:12:35 AM EST
    It is barbaric and it is not done out of mercy, but instead is meant to instill fear into the public and enemies. It qualifies as an act of terrorism. There is no justification for this act.
    And what is bombing from 10,000 feet supposed to instill. Warm cuddly feelings?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#14)
    by Peaches on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:26:28 AM EST
    Squeaky, You should know my position on bombing. Why are you bringing it up? Bombing from 10,000 feet is as barbaric as bombing from 20 feet or s feet or three inches, for that matter. I was speaking about beheading and responding to the claim that it is a legitimate form of swift death. I don't know of any legitimate form of swift death. I am as appalled by beheadings as I am by bombs.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#15)
    by Punchy on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:29:27 AM EST
    We are occupying the country in an attempt to establish stability, Did you ever stop to think that perhaps these two are incompatible? That stability is impossible if we continue to occupy it? That the ONLY way to win is by leaving? No, that'd be "cutting and running". We better stay for 3 more years....and 3 more years of instability.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:38:02 AM EST
    "Are you so naive as to think these guys would have been treated any differently? You have much to learn about this particular enemy!" Oh well then we would be justified in killing fifteen to twenty more little children to avenge this incident, right? There were no "enemies" in Iraq when George Bush decided with his "gut" to invade and kill and send our children to kill and be killed on his frikkin lies. HE LIED--there were no insurgents and no dissidents and no civil war was in progress. All of this is the result of his invasion. There can be no doubt that this capture would have happened eventually. I am glad to see that it is referred to in the article as a "capture" and not a kidnapping. There may be more---after we kill another four or five children and babies and innocent people. IT is Bush's war--and he is directly responsible for the deaths and beheadings of these two soldiers. The uncle was right--in his grief he spoke the truth.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:40:36 AM EST
    Sky-Ho writes:
    Had we paid attention to the GC, at least our howls of protest would have credence, likely our boys would still be alive.
    As you asked BB, "Prove it." Now, if you want to demand equivalent action, the terrorists would have placed the soldiers into prison, made sure they had their religious texts, made sure their diet matched their religious requirements and answered a million questions from the western media as well as AI, et al. You write:
    One, Pearl, was a "non-combatant", an alleged journalist.
    "alleged?" Prove it, Sky-Ho. You write:
    It was not even in the same country,
    In another thread you claimed to have been in a position to "know things." Kind of funny that you don't understand that al-Qaida is a loose organization of persons from various countries who cooperate with various other groups and countries from time to time. Educate yourself, Sky. Your ignorance is showing.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:42:34 AM EST
    Most sadly...it will happen again...and again...and again. All because our leaders will not admit a terrible mistake, and will not see that there is no victory to be had in Iraq. The only thing staying does is increase the death toll on all sides. Our soldiers didn't deserve this, but they will continue to reap it until our leaders see the light. Maybe by 2009....which means 3 more years of widows, widowers, and parentless children. It's pure madness to keep letting our men and women die for some "victory" no one can explain or pinpoint. Stability? I'm with punchy, as long as we occupy there will be no stability. Didn't the Soviets try to stabilize Afghanistan after their invasion ans occupation? How'd that work?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:46:19 AM EST
    Marty: I don't know whether to be more angry or sad. THIS IS WHY WE FOLLOW THE GENEVA CONVENTION, you a**hole followers of our frat-boy President!!!...NOT because we are sympathetic to the terrorists, but because we want our captive soldiers to be treated humanely!!!!!! My sympathies and condolences to the families of Menchaca and Tucker. This should not have happened and wouldn't have had not this criminal administration's murderous and illegal war of aggression against a country that was completely contained and was incapable of mounting any kind of threat to the US. I'm with Marty on this. The responsibility for this has to be laid at the feet of george bush, and on the pitfalls and conceit of an interventionist foreign policy. But we all know what the general response from bushco apologists will be based on. History be damned. We don't need no stinkin' facts round here: George W. Bush, State of the Union - January 31,2006:
    We have entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite.
    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:59:08 AM EST
    I think our guys are more civilized, they are able to laugh and have a good time while the kick around decapitated human heads like soccerballs or giggle while taking snapshots of friends spreading menstrual blood on naked male prisoners. It is kind of like table manners. Manners are meant to show a certain dispassionate relationship to eating. We show civility by not have to rip into our food even if we are very hungry. It is the attitude that separates barbarians from the civilized, not the acts. When we behead it would just be for kicks or out of boredom. They, on the other hand, are barbarians when they behead simply because of how they feel when they do it.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 09:59:27 AM EST
    My condolences and thoughts to their families and loved-ones. For the rest of us, nothing will bring them back, there is no heaven, there's only dust. I worry about my little brother in Afghanistan. With all the increased violence in his region of it lately. I wonder if we'll get that call. Just makes me nuts, and I have to force it down, deny, don't think about it, just keep on keepin' on. All just nuts. Playing the terrorists' game and claiming we're being proactive. F*ck these head-slicing pieces of sh*t. And f*ck us for running this "war" like a g*ddamn 99 Cent Store with broken door locks. No amount of enemy butchery will make me accept the embarrassment of our own wretched errors of pride and vengeance and delusion and greed. But hey, the war goes on, the bodies pile up, and we never even have to glimpse it. Slice the beef and pour the wine, what I don't see is dandy and fine.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 10:09:08 AM EST
    Now, if you want to demand equivalent action, the terrorists would have placed the soldiers into prison, made sure they had their religious texts, made sure their diet matched their religious requirements and answered a million questions from the western media as well as AI, et al.
    well except if you forget those we beat to death, oh and you have to forget the killing of civilians by snipers, and... well ya got to do a lot of forgetting and/or selective retention

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 10:14:44 AM EST
    Peaches-
    You should know my position on bombing. Why are you bringing it up?
    Yes, I do know that you also abhor bombing. My comment was not directed towards you but to our local trolls. Didn't want them to think that you were partial to one type of murder over another.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 10:25:36 AM EST
    wg, This is simply a war of occupation. When your objective to occupy the country and subjugate the people one doesn't care about collateral damage. The "shock and awe" is meant to instill fear in the populace so that eventually they will give up and become compliant. The nihilist views of the neocons is founded on the ideas than humans are barbaric, their lives inconsequential, and the only thing they understand is fear. So to conquer someone you have to be more brutal, which is easy in this case given the difference in technologies for killing between the sides.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 10:57:22 AM EST
    Why is that republicans are so "eye for an eye" and all for tough punishment until it comes to our own? I feel awful for these families and my condolences go out to them. Being that they are not in control of the country and cannot "jail" their prisoners, it is to be expected that they will be killed. It would be no different if the Chinese invaded the US to liberate us from the Hawks. Would I chop the head off an enemy? heck no. Would Limbaugh or Coulter, of course they would. I realize they are not elected officials but they are certainly spokespeople for the GOP. I guess an eye for an eye is only applicable when you are serving the US god.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#27)
    by Punchy on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 11:09:13 AM EST
    I wonder if we'll get that call. Just makes me nuts, and I have to force it down, deny, don't think about it, just keep on keepin' on. I simply cannot imagine how you and all other military families do this. Every time the phone rings there must be at least some panic and fear. Multiply that by the sheer number of times a phone rings in one day and...multiply that by hundreds of days and...well, I just cannot fathom the constant stress it would inflict.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 11:13:04 AM EST
    Punchy, For my mom it's even worse. She just keeps in this Buddhist place, living in the moment. All she can do. Thanks for the thoughts.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#30)
    by cmpnwtr on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 11:45:26 AM EST
    These are just two more "numbers" for the White House. I hope more American mothers and fathers will say, "enough!" I'm not going to sacrifice my own for the mullahs who rule in Iraq.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#31)
    by marty on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:00:46 PM EST
    "Are you so naive as to think these guys would have been treated any differently? You have much to learn about this particular enemy" Uhhh....no, but I see you adopt the most typical line of Bush sycophants- assume that opponents are naive, foolish, etc. Our hypocrisy, on view for the world to see, has only made it MORE likely that MORE of our soldiers may face this fate.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:28:42 PM EST
    Pmain, No need to argue with you or call you names. Your post says more about yourself than any of us here can.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#33)
    by HK on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:29:48 PM EST
    It really aggrevates me when people use victims or their relatives to justify vengence or other poor behaviour. I don't know what Mariane Pearl would say on this particular topic, BB, and I don't think you do either. What I do know is what is stated on the website of The Daniel Pearl Foundation:
    The Daniel Pearl Foundation has been formed by Danny's family and friends to continue Danny's mission and to address the root causes of this tragedy, in the spirit, style, and principles that shaped Danny's work and character. These principles include uncompromised objectivity and integrity; insightful and unconventional perspective; tolerance and respect for people of all cultures; unshaken belief in the effectiveness of education and communication; and the love of music, humor, and friendship.
    That doesn't sound like an endorsement of the 'you don't play by the rules so we won't either' mentality. This game of toy soldiers GWB is playing must be hell for all those caught up in it, civilians, soldiers and relatives like Dadler. What we need is a solution, not a reaction.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:32:49 PM EST
    The sickest thing, well besides the beheadings, is that you, PMain, come in here with not even a glimmer of condolence expressed to the families of these two unfortunate men, simply to try to hijack the thread, divert, deny and cheer on the sick administration whose illegal aggressions are the cause of these mens deaths.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#35)
    by HK on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:33:05 PM EST
    Peaches, I only read the first 2 sentences of his post before I realised I had more productive things to do than continue through his lengthy nonsense.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:33:24 PM EST
    Peaches thanks for your comment - I will follow your lead and ignore.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 12:39:47 PM EST
    Peaches thanks for your comment - I will follow your lead and ignore. And I will do the same with any of his future posts.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 01:06:07 PM EST
    I'll just add that most of us saw the destruction and mayhem, broken bodies and spirits, detainments etc coming in the wake of the invasion as surely as night follows day. Little "Ilk" obviously wanted so badly to believe in the anti-septic, rousing parades-hearts-and flowers P.R campaign, that all she can do now is lash out as another fantasy of omnipotence and being on the side of the way-the truth-and the light bites the dust.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 01:26:12 PM EST
    narius: It does NOT matter what we do, our enemies will still be doing the most nasty stuff to whoever they captured. Hate to break this to you narius, but America attacked Iraq, not the other way around. They are responding to that attack. I think it is about time that we reciprocate. You're consistent, I'll give you that. You can always be counted on to recommend doing more of the same things that caused these mens deaths, and to continue the cycle of killing. How many dead are going to be enough for you?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#41)
    by HK on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 01:29:41 PM EST
    The left keeps using the logic the if we follow it, our enemies will.
    No, Narius, what any of those with any common sense are in fact saying (okay, let's call them 'the left') is what Sky-Ho said earlier:
    Had we paid attention to the GC, at least our howls of protest would have credence
    Narius goes on to say:
    I think it is about time that we reciprocate
    Yeah, step it up a little, that'll work.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peaches on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 01:52:44 PM EST
    I think it is about time that we reciprocate.
    narius, I realize that for you this is about revenge and vengeance. You think this is a good thing. You also believe that most Americans agree with you. You hold little value for life that is not American and, if it is American, it must not be criminal for life to have any value. Again, you think most Americans hold the same values towards life as you do, and on my most pessimistic days and weakest moments, I might even agree with you. However, these are not values I wish to share with you or any other person--American or not. The reason I don't want to torture the enemy or use cruel and unusual punishment for criminals is not because I know it will influence how they treat their prisoners or victims. I don't want to inflict cruel and unusual punishment on the enemy because it reflects on how I view the potential of humanity. As long as I can remain above the temptation for vengeance, I will remain convinced that there remains a potential for peace amongst all communities on Earth despite the cries for revenge by the basest impulses at the core of our existence that you represent.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#45)
    by Al on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 02:06:33 PM EST
    At this point, it is not likely there is anything we can do to make them NOT torture our people if they got their hands on them. - Narius
    That's right. It's too late now. Not that you care. You're not going to get your head sawed off. You're quite safe in whatever hole you're hiding in. But the young person considering enlisting, now, that's a different story. Or the young soldier in Iraq awake at night wondering if he might meet such a horrible death. You're right, Narius. It's too late for them now.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 02:37:19 PM EST
    Just joining in the thread (indeed this forum) recently, so I am not going to attempt to figure out exactly who said what. As far as what Pmain said, I have to say, though he says it in an angry fashion, there is a good deal of substance in his points. A lot of folks' moral axis hinges on whether an issue is pleasing or irritating to the current administration and their neocon allies. This is not morality, it is ideology- political opportunism completely unmoored from any ethical foundation whatsover. Which is exactly what is most reprehensible about Bush and his ilk, and about a great many of their opponents as well. Same coin, different sides. We should follow the Geneva conventions as a matter of course, and irrespective of the behaviour of our enemies- because the conventions are representative of a moral code that is essential to our identity. (A code, by the way, which is unintelligible to our enemies). If we reciprocate, we damage ourselves, without damaging our already base and vile opponents. And as for folks who would equate Abu Ghraib with the despicable actions of AQ, and by extension, look at this as some sort of justice meted out on the American people, such an equation is wrong on every level. In terms of suffering, there is no parity. Getting beaten and covered with excrement sucks, but it's still better than being beheaded. More importantly than this is the fact that the abuses at Abu Ghraib and other incidents are illegal, and are treated as such. They may result from lax oversight and incompetence, but they do not issue as policy from American centers of strategy or policy. And, when detected, they are abhorred and punished. Such abhorrence is stronger in the military than elsewhere, and indeed, resistance to torture has come principally from the Pentagon. Indeed, military dissatisfaction with the war in general is intense. The endurance of the troops is being stretched to the maximum, as soldiers are experiencing combat actions of durations not seen since the European theater in 1944. At least in the ETO there was a discrete goal that marked the future end of the conflict- Berlin. We've already been to Baghdad, yet the war is not over. As for the constant talk about Gitmo- I wonder how well folks who hold up Gitmo as an example fo how we don't comply with the Geneva Conventions understand those conventions, or the UCMJ. Anyone performing combat operations who is not properly signified asa combatent by wearing a uniform, and operating under legitimate military authority is one of three things; a spy, a sabatuer, or an irregular. The folks in Gitmo are irregulars. Do you know what the GenCon allows military forces to do to captured irregulars? They are allowed to summarliy execute them Additionally, the 3rd convention , dealing with the treatment of prisoners of war, states "[during a conflict] between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention." So, as soon as they cut off the 1st head, according to the GC, all bets are off. Fortunately, we are still, in the main, behaving in a civilized fashion as far as rules of engagement go. But we are not legally bound to do so.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#48)
    by HK on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 02:37:58 PM EST
    PMain, I guess you feel all warm inside. I'm very happy for you. BTW You sure have us pegged. We ignore all the inconvenient facts and don't ever bother to discuss anything. And I for one don't even have a flag to lower.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 02:55:12 PM EST
    Do you know what the GenCon allows military forces to do to captured irregulars? They are allowed to summarliy execute them
    Links please. If this is true, then the treatment given to the Blackwater mercs that were strung up on a bridge was square with the GC.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 02:58:19 PM EST
    when all else fails just call everyone bush haters and revel in your self-rightous ignorance. Is getting beaten to death in AG any better than beheading? I know you are capable of generating some moral relativistic pile that will only make the hypocrisy only that much more clear. What AG, killing of civilians, the use of napalm, use of cluster munitions, use of air strikes against targets within civilian areas, as well as the increased calls for yet further brutality prove is that the premise that this war had anything to do with bringing democracy to Iraq was and is complete BS. It is about brutality, instilling fear, without any regard to winning hearts and minds which makes it a war of conquest and occupation.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:01:19 PM EST
    Additionally, the 3rd convention , dealing with the treatment of prisoners of war, states "[during a conflict] between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention."
    Links please. The U.S. has constantly violated the strictures of the convention so if this is true, then it would appear the enemy forces are not bound by the GC, correct?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:04:26 PM EST
    Let's be a bit more exact here - the American government cannot claim these men were tortured unless it first demonstrates they suffered pain equivilant to that of major organ failure.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:06:28 PM EST
    This will probably be my last post here so I will try to be precise. Reading this post I was really disappointed with the responses to the horrible deaths of our fellow countrymen. These two honorable men volenteered to serve in our armed forces and swore to protect us and our way of life with their own lives. Now whether you agree with the direction of our administration or not shouldn't take anything away from these fine soldiers. With the attitudes I have seen on this post I can sincerely say that if I ever have to face combat again I hope none of you are anywhere around me. I'm afraid your actions or lack of action would get me killed.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:12:20 PM EST
    Ernesto, that's straight from the text of the Geneva Convention. Google it, or look it up in Wikipedia. Additionally, I would hesitate to say that the US routinely violates the Geneva convention. Bush's neocon flunkies may crow about that, getting the military to do it is a different thing. My best friend was a Marine JAG in afghanistan, and I know he took that kind of stuff superseriously. Additionally, all American officers recieve indoctrination and training on the Law of War, and rules of engagement are clearly spelled out to them. The question of whether a state violates the GC does not hinge solely on the actions of its soldiers. It hinges on how it responds to itas soldeirs actions, and how it formulates ROE and policies. My Lai, for example, was a violation of the GC. But the violater was not the US, it was Lt. Calley. Had the US condoned or ordered that action or similar actions as a matter of general policy, then it would be considered to be not in compliance with the GC. Regardless, I am not suggesting that we should start beheading or torturing people. Following the GC is a positive good in of itself. The psychological damage to our soldiers, and to our national consciousness, would not be worth whatever we might get out of it. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet to lose his soul? I pointed this section of the GC out in response to those who seem to think the US is the root of all evil, or that it is inherently evil. If they truly believe that, then I submit that they have not seen enough evil to judge. Flawed? Yes, but less than most. Less than any, in my opinion.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#57)
    by HK on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:17:28 PM EST
    tomd I don't quite understand your comments. There are people who have posted here who I agree with and with whom I disagree, but everybody is in agreement that the deaths of these soldiers is tragic and unacceptable. Those who have criticised the administation - including Ken MacKenzie, the uncle of one of the slain soldiers - have done so because they believe that it's actions are wrong and have contributed to the deaths of these men.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:18:35 PM EST
    Back to the Blackwater mercs... Here's what the Geneva Convention says about mercenaries: Article 47.-Mercenaries 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. 2. A mercenary is any person who: (a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; (b) Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; (c) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces. The United States is in violation of the Geneva Convention by employing mercenaries in Iraq. Of course, this doesn't even touch the subject of Negroponte's death squads roaming the countryside. I will give narius credit for being a little more honest, instead of engaging in heavy duty spinning, denying, or grasping for a non-existant legal justification for torture and mass murder like PMain and Justiceiro are doing here.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:21:39 PM EST
    tomd...the fact that your anger isn't directed at the people who sent those two soldiers over there on false pretenses and think of them as "just a number" tells me that you are at best, delusional.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#60)
    by scribe on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:22:06 PM EST
    Yahoo is reporting the soldiers' bodies were booby-trapped, as was the area around them, with multiple IEDs.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:29:51 PM EST
    I pointed this section of the GC out in response to those who seem to think the US is the root of all evil, or that it is inherently evil. If they truly believe that, then I submit that they have not seen enough evil to judge.
    Books have been written on the gross violations of human rights by U.S. foreign policy over the last 60 years. If you really cared about how this country is perceived then you wouldn't be dancing around the main issue, that being that the whole Iraq operation is another sad chapter in such books.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    Don't confuse YOUR identify with OUR identity. There is no single identity in America. I would hope, Narius, that a commitment to integrity in all situations, even in combat, would be a value that is generally held in America. By your comment, are you indicating that you don't hold this value? As for there not being a general identity in the US, I disagree, to an extent. There is in fact a widely esteemed civil religion, and widely shared political values, although other cultural indicators vary widely across class and region. No country this vast could have held together without some sort of centripetal force. If you need cites, I refer you to the vast literature on political sociology- Lipset, Diamond, et. al. I think most people will like to see these enemies dead by all means necessary. The US could end this insurgency in a matter of weeks if it would unleash the full power of its military might, unrestrained by any ethical considerations. I feel that you are attempting to paint the US as a nation of savages. If we truly were so, then we would behave in a very different fashion, as I assure you that it isn't the moral scruples of our current leadership that keeps our baser instincts in check. It is the fact that even the relatively minor infractions committed by the likes of Lyndie Englund and her cohorts aroused shame and anger in the populace. Barbarism is not politically possible, because we are not barbarians. As to the condition of AQ and others, I will let you draw your own conclusions on that. After all, the people are the sea that the insurgent fish swims in, ate they not? I take offense at your suggestion that I am attempting to justify mass murder. that's simply rhetoric, and badly done rhetoric at that. What I am attempting to do is place the issue in perspective. Is there space within your thinking for anything other than extremes?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:33:58 PM EST
    PPJ, Jim. Please tell us how anyone "proves" a supposition or opinion. Unlike BB's assertion as fact, I believe I used the word, likely. As well as torturing them, ensuring they have no rights or access to attorneys and shipping them to third world countries who can do a much better job than the typical Iraqi freedom fighter. and don't forget to rape their kids in from of them. One, Pearl, was a "non-combatant", an alleged journalist. "alleged?" Prove it, Sky-Ho. Prove what? That he was an alleged journalist? Is this wingnut logic? You accept everything your moronic government or the MSM tells you? Yes, dear, I do understand. While you parrot the words, your postings suggest that you do not. I said, had you remedial reading comprehension skills, that terrorists are terrorists and do not necessarily follow the same rules as the parent org. So, follow along, I said that Berg might have been killed for different reasons than the two soldiers, killed by different cells/groups of people, even people with different, even opposing philosophies, assuming you can understand that asymmetric warfare rarely leads to black and white situations or two dimensional options. Your wingnut philosophy will not save you here because, as a bloodied member of the 101st keyboard pounder, you, as well as the moronic pResident, are fighting the wrong war.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:40:16 PM EST
    What I am attempting to do is place the issue in perspective. Is there space within your thinking for anything other than extremes?
    In a thread about two guys getting their heads chopped off while in service of a group of people whose policies have killed untold thousands of people (mostly civilians), who have hired mercenaries, formed death squads, engaged in torture, etc., etc., the answer would seem to be...no, not really. Please read Blum's book and get back to me about this thing you call "perspective".

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:44:28 PM EST
    If you really cared about how this country is perceived then you wouldn't be dancing around the main issue, that being that the whole Iraq operation is another sad chapter in such books. Ernesto, I care less about how this country is percieved than how it really is. Having spent a great deal of my life, and recieving much of my education, outside of the US, I am likely more aware than most about the perceptions of outsiders concerning the US, and the root causes of their "perceptions." Anti-Americansim doesn't trouble me that much because, much as bad weather is, it is endemic and little influenced by our actual behavior. Which "main issue" pray tell, am I dancing around? Are you irritated that I am discussing a detail (the nature of the Geneva Convention) that doesn't dovetail with your apparent obsession concerning the irredeemable wickedness of the US? Books have been written about how bad bad bad the US is. And? How does that relate to the fact that sawing two people's heads off is hideous? A great many books have been written about a great many things, there is even a book that claiming that Columbus was Lithuanian, when everyone knows he was really Portuguese. If this is some attempt to snidely suggest that I am not well read enough to participate in this debate, send me your address, I will mail you the 120 page thesis I wrote concerning bureaucratic authoritarianism in Latin America. I hope its better than that Columbus book.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:46:39 PM EST
    PMain, I have no idea who or what Al Quaeda is. I don't think anyone does. I'm not even sure how it's spelled. But I do know that we have ignored the Geneva Conventions and just about every other legal document there is from the get go with our Iraq adventure.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 03:50:16 PM EST
    Anti-Americansim doesn't trouble me that much because, much as bad weather is, it is endemic and little influenced by our actual behavior.
    So what praytell, is it influenced by? We have good hygeine and table manners, so what else could it be? Are they just jealous of our freedoms?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 04:04:29 PM EST
    Discussing the history of anti-americanism is too far off topic to get into seriosuly here. Since it pre-dates the Vietnam war, and indeed predates even our existence as a state, I doubt it is solely predicated on our bad behavior as a great power. Its certainly been exacerbated by our rise as a power, but mostly by the decline of others' power (i.e. France). It's interesting to note that the increasing self-rightousness of many other states, such as the EU, tracks directly with the decline of their status. Now that they have lost the power to do evil, they seem very concerned about doing good. Strange, that. Anti-Americanism of foreign cultures usually grows out of local conditions, and is really more about them, and less about us. As is our own, internal, "professed" self-loathing. Just as all groups define themselves by establishing an "other", most american "internal" anti-americanism is a form of narcissism used to elevate people above their countrymen. It feels so good to be smarter and more rightous than those red state bumpkins, doesn't it? This usually manifests itself in discussions about how much more backward we are than, say, Europeans. About how our movies are so much worse, and our coffee sucks. This impression of European culture as being lofty and virtuous is often reinforced by vacations to Amsterdam, were much time is spent breathing in the refined air of foreign intellectual achievement, and of course pot smoke. If you ever actually live outside the US, you will quickly come to realize that most people are just about as venal as everybdy else. As far as the US goes, as I said before, we are worse than no one else, and better than quite a few. As for being proud of your inability to think outside extremist molds, well, that's to bad. Because the world is far deeper and more interesting than a 2 dimensional examination of it would lead you to believe. Better to look at it with both eyes, rather than one.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 04:06:51 PM EST
    Nope. Who says we should have such value. I certainly hope not. If we are going into combat, I hope the troops are trained to WIN, not to pussyfoot around how to treat the enemies. Sorry, Narius. I can't agree with you. I don't think we should whack non-combatants for any reason. Mostly because it will turn us into beasts. And we don't need to do it in order to win. We fought the NAzis, and won, without becoming Nazis, didn't we?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#72)
    by Al on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 04:42:11 PM EST
    I would hope, Narius, that a commitment to integrity in all situations, even in combat, would be a value that is generally held in America. By your comment, are you indicating that you don't hold this value?
    Nope. Who says we should have such value. I certainly hope not. If we are going into combat, I hope the troops are trained to WIN, not to pussyfoot around how to treat the enemies.-Narius
    Of course the troops are trained to win. Well, they're trained to kill. But they're not winning, are they? And it's not because they're "pussyfooting". Go figure. Maybe it has something to do with not even being able to recognize who the enemy is. Maybe it is related to the lack of a strategy; what exactly are they fighting for? Torture is the most inefficient way of obtaining information. If it was such a great way of obtaining information, what are 150,000 troops doing still in Iraq three years after the mission was supposedly accomplished? Why are the Taliban making a comeback in Afghanistan? As PPJ would say, if thuggery is an efficient way of conducting a war, prove it. From where I stand, I see nothing but failure. Your hateful little plan is not only immoral and cowardly, it doesn't even work.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#73)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 04:45:18 PM EST
    This usually manifests itself in discussions about how much more backward we are than, say, Europeans.
    Of course, I never said anything about Europe being better or worse, and consider it totally irrelevant as to whether an old colonial power is jealous of our current attempt at empire building. I pointed out our numerous human rights violations over the years and up to the present day. Yet you want to dismiss that as a primary cause of our conflict with people that resent our constant meddling? As for the talk of being "proud of extremism" or whatever, I consider that nothing but smoke to obscure the fact that we are doing a lot of very unsavory things that cause people to not like us. Sorry, but this really is not that complex a subject.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 04:58:30 PM EST
    As for the talk of being "proud of extremism" or whatever, I consider that nothing but smoke to obscure the fact that we are doing a lot of very unsavory things that cause people to not like us. Sorry, but this really is not that complex a subject. Actually, it is a complex subject- given that our involvement in the world involves a nexus of culture, history, ideology, and power politics how could it not be. It is easier to make simple arguments, but their simplicity doesn't make them any better as arguments. The situation is also made more complex by the fact that much of what happens in Iraq is oriented towards local politics and local social realities; the United States is a factor there, but not always the determining factor. It's a bit simplistic to suppose otherwise. It's not that I want to dismiss our wrongdoings (although I suspect that you want to dismiss anything not referrencing our evil as its root caus), it is simply that I recognize the depth of the issue. Complex problems rarely have simple solutions. I realize that you did not mention Europe- I was describing the archetypical leftist whiner who brands anyone who disagrees with them, or strays from the party line, with something like, I don't know, an accusation that they are "engaging in heavy duty spinning, denying, or grasping for a non-existant legal justification for torture and mass murder" Eugene Debs must be rollogn over in his grave.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#76)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:07:50 PM EST
    Eugene Debs must be rollogn over in his grave.
    Que? You are one of those people who can talk for hours without saying anything. Please go away.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:17:13 PM EST
    Eugene Debs must be rollogn over in his grave. Que? You are one of those people who can talk for hours without saying anything. Please go away. Meaning that, as a real socialist, I am embarrased by puerile leftists such as yourself. Your the one who tried to fluant your intellectual creds, so is it my fualt that your a leftist who doesn't know the history of American leftism? Educate yourself. Do you know any Spanish other than Que?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:19:48 PM EST
    So what praytell, is it influenced by? We have good hygeine and table manners, so what else could it be? Are they just jealous of our freedoms? Strangely enough, few of us outside America are jealous of Sweden, despite it having the best civil rights record around.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:34:24 PM EST
    I know who Eugene Debs is. I have no idea why anything I said would make him roll over in his grave, though. Ergo the "que?". But back to our "discussion". People in other countries know our track record on human rights abuses, even if most of us don't, or won't admit to it. I have talked to people in Jamaica, Mexico, Argentina, and Uruguay and they all can cite specific examples of CIA involvement in their countries. How can you not know this if you have lived abroad?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:47:49 PM EST
    PMain, I would like to see the text of the GC that allows anyone to be "shot on sight" cut and pasted here. Thanks. Re: extremists in the military. Killing people is extreme of course, but what I was referring to was the civilians in charge, especially the PNAC people who forged the blueprint for this disaster. To them it is nothing less than a jihad, but one they are fighting by proxy, as is their custom. Re: Germany and Japan Those countries never generated a strong guerilla opposition force after the conventional military forces were defeated. This was probably because the population at large felt it had a viable stake in the new government, conditions that did not/do not exist in Vietnam/Iraq. Re: chickenhawks Touchy about that are we? ;) No, I was just observing that if someone really believes in a cause, they should be willing to make the sacrifices themselves. Otherwise, they give the appearance of insincerity if not cowardice.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 05:56:59 PM EST
    It is of intense curiosity to me that Fearless Leader and his Administration are particularily adept at claiming Immanuel Kant's Democratic Peace Theorem as justification for continuing our Nation's continued (w/o an ending) involvement in Iraqui government. I wonder why this administration does not also cleave to Kant's Moral philosophy as well? i.e. With regard to morality, Kant argued that the source of the good lies not in anything outside the human subject, either in nature or given by God, but rather only the good will itself. A good will is one that acts from duty in accordance with the universal moral law that the autonomous human being freely gives itself. This law obliges one to treat humanity - understood as rational agency, and represented through oneself as well as others, as an end in itself rather than (merely) as means. This war and all it has brought about so far, will do something of far more consequence than just become an accumulation of facts and figures....it will also "Define" America's morality for tha decades to come, something to think seriously about my friends.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:09:20 PM EST
    One more note about extremism in the U.S. military. It is there. I saw it firsthand when I was there. There is a deep-rooted racism, too. There is a tendency to dehumanize the opposition, including civilians. And this is not just limited to a few bad apples. One of my lingering memories from my basic training days was of our battery commander defending the My Lai massacre against a raw recruit who spoke out against it. I have little doubt that there are widespread human rights abuses by the U.S. military going on in Iraq and they are either being ignored or sanctioned by the chain of command.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:21:01 PM EST
    Re-read Justiceiro's post about summary executions the exact text is there
    I don't see it there. Cut and paste it again, please.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:25:58 PM EST
    PMain, it wasn't the drill seargent it was the battery commander, the captain, officer in charge of the unit. This was a West Point graduate, someone who should have known better. It tells me that the problem is insitutional and shouldn't be so easily dismissed by you guys.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:46:15 PM EST
    I have talked to people in Jamaica, Mexico, Argentina, and Uruguay and they all can cite specific examples of CIA involvement in their countries. How can you not know this if you have lived abroad? I seriously doubt that Ze Povinho who hacks out a living in the Amazon sits down and night and frets about My Lai. Foreign elites are a different matter, but my feeling anfter living and working amongst them is that they dislike the IS, and they grab the ammunition that they have available. In fact, the interesting thing about anti-americanism abroad is that it is similar to the anti-americanism of intellectuals here; and it springs from the same roots- bare elitism and, in a sense, classism. The wife comes from a from a mining village outside of Porto- most everybody there is poor or workng class. They love America; or rather, they ove the image they ahve of America which they mostly get from movies and TV (it isn't an accurate image) they consume American cultural products with avidly. They actually believe the hype that everybody here is happy, rich, etc. Strangely, the whole village is entirely Red (as in communist, not republican) When I was teaching in town, the elite of Porto hated America, its movies, its culture, its politics. They believe the worst of America, that it is all violence, racism, poverty, etc. I was once having lunch with some of my wife's colleagues from the university and this guy from the faculty couldn't concieve of the fact that I didn't regularly visit the only McDonald's in the town. "But your American!" he said. Every American loves McDonald's, right? The real reason that these guys hated America wasn't so much that they hated america per se, they really didn't know much about America (not unusual, most Europeans are only superficially knowledgable about our country). They really despised the proletarians from places like the village. they also despised everything those people liked. Anti-Americanism is often percieved by us out of context. It looks like an external conflict, when it is often internal. Remember, all politics is local. It could be that what's really up with you is that you dislike regular Americans. Because you're an elitist. Which makes you a piss poor leftist. Do you love "the people" but despise the individuals? Because that's who "the people" are. Interesting that all your examples of American meanness come from Latin America. In truth, our policies there have been pretty F-ed up. But that doesn't quite wash in the middle east. Our involvement there has been much less intimate. Basically, we hosed Iran in 1953, and came late to the "support israel" table. There are other reasons than us messing with them that cause such friction with folks like AQ. Else there would be even more friction in Latin America, which there isn't. As for the Geneva convention and executions. the convention does not mandate that irregulars be executed. What it does is specifically exclude such people from the protection of the Geneva convention. Meaning, that anything bad done to irregulars is automatically not a violation of the convention. So killing them would not be a violation. In fact, we don't do this because we have our own regulations concerning our behavior that prevent it. Which doesn't sit well with your idea that we are all totally debase and wicked. But that's a simple attitude, so its pleasant, isn't it? Platitudes are comfortable.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:56:20 PM EST
    The guys who cut the heads off the soldiers had a beef with Uncle Sam why? Because they are elitists? You slay me, no pun intended.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:08:11 PM EST
    You asked me about anti-americanism. I think they cut those guys heads off because they are barbarians. The French left is pretty anti-american, but they don't cut people's heads off. Are you going to continue to excise single sentences or phrases from my posts, or actually respond to what I say? Do you have anything interesting to say other than "Jamaicans told like us"? Weak. And yes, actually, AQ in Iraq are elitists. They think they are the elect of God. That's pretty elitist. And the greatest threat America poses to the wahabbists is a cultural threat, not a military threat.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:28:16 PM EST
    Would a bullet in the back of the head be less barbaric? Or, a bullet in the back of the head from someone whose son or daughter had recently been blown to pieces been less barbaric? France hasn't been invaded or had cluster munitions dropped in any of its villages recently, so it's difficult to say how Jean Paul Sartre would react to that scenario. This is nothing but a clash of different stripes of elites IMO.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:32:05 PM EST
    Its always a breathe of fresh air to have a genuine, salt'a the earth, man-of-the-people drop in and bring all of us elites back down to earth.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:32:08 PM EST
    The French left is pretty anti-american, but they don't cut people's heads off.
    We haven't invaded and occupied their place yet, so that's a bogus analogy. By the way your criticism sounds quite uh...elitist, actually. PMain that German guerilla war story has been debunked already. And your comment about the NVA made no sense.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 07:36:51 PM EST
    Sky-Ho writes:
    Your wingnut philosophy will not save you here because, as a bloodied member of the 101st keyboard pounder, you, as well as the moronic pResident, are fighting the wrong war
    Oh, really? I served a little over ten years in Naval Aviation. Did you serve? And if so, in what branch? Sky-Ho, sweetie. Baby. You like to talk tough but after reading some of your claims, I don't buy'em. And what you said was:
    One, Pearl, was a "non-combatant", an alleged journalist. The killers chose a legitimate form of swift death, for, whatever reason. Would you prefer he were beaten to death, waterboarded to death, forced to crap on himself repeatedly?
    As I said, prove that Pearl was not a Journalist. You can't. And your defense of the people who killed him is sick, but expected. Tell us again what you know.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#94)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:09:43 PM EST
    They love America; or rather, they love the image they have of America which they mostly get from movies and TV (it isn't an accurate image) they consume American cultural products with avidly. They actually believe the hype that everybody here is happy, rich, etc. Strangely, the whole village is entirely Red (as in communist, not republican) It's not america they love. They revel in the human potential. The USA is mostly a facade. They see through that. Especially "commies".

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#95)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:11:40 PM EST
    Sorry, I was quoting Justiceiro at 7:46 PM.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 01:06:57 AM EST
    I wont skip over it. Lets see a link that substantiates that the Russian casulaties were inflicted by what would qualify as guerilla fighters or a guerilla army. And aside from the fact that evoking WWII continually in the context of a discussion about Iraq is at best an apples and coconuts comparison, the issue of the morality of waging this kind of "preemptive war" in contrast to the moral necessity of intervention in WWII make the comparison downright dishonest and propagandistic.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 01:10:04 AM EST
    I've noticed that the average neocon cant seem to get through a paragraph lately without evoking WWII. Has alot of emotional resonance.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 01:32:27 AM EST
    Squeaky, point well made... sadly.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#101)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 07:03:15 AM EST
    Que? You are one of those people who can talk for hours without saying anything. Please go away.
    Justiceiro, Let me chime in and say I hope you stay. Your arguments are refreshing. You make your points without insulting your interlocutor and your arguments are well thought out. There was a lot to digest and in some minor points where I disagree or think you are not paying enough attention to the shortcomings of the adminsitration policy in Iraq. These are minor, however. I agree with you that The US is not synonymous with evil. I also agree that are potential for good is great based upon the ideals the US was founded upon and the values of the majority of our citizenry. But, I think you will agree, that whenever the US falls short of these ideals, we should always strive for the greater, no matter how far short other countries and our enemies may be of these same ideals. iow, we should always strive for the greater good. Thanks again for your refreshing perspective. Too often we are treated to views from trolls such as Pmain, who, although they may have some valid points to make, begin their posts by slinging insults broadly at all of those who may have viewpoints that differ from them. These trolls are not worth debating or arguning with. I hope you stick around.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 07:49:54 AM EST
    Getting beaten and covered with excrement sucks, but it's still better than being beheaded.
    Yes tell that to those who would rather be beheaded than spend another day in an American concentration camp. Or are all those who would rather die, then live under inhumane conditions, just PR agents of al-Qaida?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#103)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 08:35:35 AM EST
    Peaches, I disagree with your assessment of Justiceiro. Behind the facade of thoughtfulness and reason, he is trying to justify horrendous human rights abuses through American exceptionalism, just like PMain or any of the other wingnuts.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#104)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 08:57:31 AM EST
    Ernesto, I empathize with your outrage over human rights abuses. However, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Justiceiro. Justiceiro has an opinion and his support of it with a facade of thoughfulness and reason is much appreciated. When I am presented with an opposing viewpoint to my own this is nothing short of refreshing, because I wish to understand the motives of my interlocutors. I do not wish to outshout them into silence, unless they are abrasive, insulting or incomprehensible - in which case I usually choose to ignore them. The sanctity of open debate and discussion is the highest principle necessary to the survival for any functioning democracy. In America, this ideal - although we often fall short - has always been held in the highest regard by alll parties wishing to maintain our functioning democracy. For this, America is justifiably praised and because of this I am proud to be an American despite our shortcomings. Likewise, here at TL, this ideal has been upheld in most instances and has alawys been a goal worth striving for.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 09:48:09 AM EST
    Ernesto... The U.S. has constantly violated the strictures of the convention so if this is true, then it would appear the enemy forces are not bound by the GC, correct? You have it backasswards. They have not signed...nor do they believe in the GC. If they did they'd have on uniforms and would have never used civilians as cover. Therefore, we are under no obligation to conform either. Why is are these small "facts" so hard for the left to understand? Jondee... I've noticed that the average neocon cant seem to get through a paragraph lately without evoking WWII. When we are discussing "war" it's only natual to compare & contrast other wars. Why do you have a problem with that? Peaches... Too often we are treated to views from trolls such as Pmain, who, although they may have some valid points to make, begin their posts by slinging insults broadly at all of those who may have viewpoints that differ from them. Please point out where Pmain insulted anybody. Some "valid" point indeed... You lefties can only hope your comments make 1/2 as much sense! As far as insulting people with 'other' viewpoints... the lefties on here are the kings at that! I eagerly await your 'nasty' comments back to me. The left is ruining the country The right is letting them do it We need a 3rd party!

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:03:53 AM EST
    Therefore, we are under no obligation to conform either. Why is are these small "facts" so hard for the left to understand?
    Probably because most of them are not facts. Go read the GC and show me otherwise.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#107)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:07:55 AM EST
    I eagerly await your 'nasty' comments back to me.
    For you sweetie! Your are a broken record endlessly repeating the same idiotic slogans over and over at your percieved enemies. iow, you are an imbecile and not worthy of discussion with anyone here, imo. But, go ahead, keep trying.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#108)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:33:21 AM EST
    I have a question for the right. A man you do not know breaks into your house. He threatens you with harm. Your neighbor hearing the disturbance comes to your aid. Both of you then start shooting at him but you are bad shots and he ends up killing you both. Does he get off on self-defense?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:37:36 AM EST
    Peaches. Here's a partial list of Justiceiro's quotes that I have problems with:
    The folks in Gitmo are irregulars. Do you know what the GenCon allows military forces to do to captured irregulars? They are allowed to summarliy execute them.
    If that were true then the U.S. had no reason to complain about the treatment the Blackwater mercs got in Fallujah. Instead we leveled the whole city in retaliation. Which calls into question this quote:
    Fortunately, we are still, in the main, behaving in a civilized fashion as far as rules of engagement go.
    Tell that to those on the receiving end of the white phosporous in Fallujah. And this was hardly an exception to our operations in Iraq. Is it any coincidence that John "Death Squads R' Us" Negroponte got put in charge of things after Bremer called it quits?
    I pointed this section of the GC out in response to those who seem to think the US is the root of all evil, or that it is inherently evil. If they truly believe that, then I submit that they have not seen enough evil to judge. Flawed? Yes, but less than most. Less than any, in my opinion.
    How can anyone realistically conclude that we are less flawed than any country on earth after looking over our track record on human rights abuses in all parts of the globe over the past 150 years? One would have to rationalize an awful lot of dead civilians and deposed democracy movements to make that statement. He is either being very disengenuous or ignorant of history. Onre other small quibble: check out the condescending putdowns that pepper his prose, look for the terms "puerile leftist", "elitist, "classist", etc. I guess this sounds a bit less harsh than "moonbat" or "terrorist lover", but really, it's the same tonic, just a different label.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#110)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    we are merely saying that any crimes committed by the US soldiers are mostly aberrations & are no way the equivalent of those that were committed to the 2 US soldiers found yesterday
    statistically, the beheadings were aberrations also. But we have abu ghraib, haiditha, executions of little children and thei mommies, invasions of hospitals, sniping at newsmen, blowing apart several houses to kill one terrorist, gitmo, rendidtion for torture ... etc. Those aren't aberrations, those are policy.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#111)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:25:32 AM EST
    you have been reduced questioning Justiceiro's ability to reason
    Actually, I asked how he can claim the U.S. is the least flawed nation on earth in light of our abysmal foreign policy track record. Perhaps you can answer that?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#112)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:33:27 AM EST
    After the 4 mercs were killed outside Falujiah and hung on bridges, the US retaliated against the town killing upwards of 1000 civilians. So the going rate appears to be 1 dead american = 250 Iraqis. Similar tactics are being used against Ramadi. We illegally invaded their country and yet you complain about them fighting back. The UN never gave us the go ahead to invade, the case for war was purposefully falsified, its been one big lie.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:35:45 AM EST
    The only justification for you rock solid belief that the US is guilty; you encountered a captain who made a racist statement, so naturally that means it's engrained throughout the entire service & has lead to "horrendous human rights abuses." Don't worry you have convinced me.
    It wasn't a racist statement per se. What he said was to the effect that if you are dealing with an enemy that moves among the population then you are going to end up killing a lot of civilians and that this was justifiable because of the tactics of the enemy. It is in essence, the same argument that you and Justiceiro have made here. So I have no doubt we are indeed ignoring the GC in Iraq and we have been for quite some time. It was inevitable and those that planned the whole thing knew that. Furthermore, the examples cited by sailor cannot be dismissed so easily since there is really no independent oversight of the actions of our military. It's the old fox garding the henhouse scenario. It took a long time for My Lai to be prosecuted because the military swept it under the rug. It was up to Congress to push for the military to investigate. I don't see the current Congress taking the lead in this regard.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#114)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 12:35:41 PM EST
    Are you really saying that these 2 US soldiers were the only ones beheaded by Al Qaeda & that it was a statistical fluke?
    Nope, never said that at all. How many soldiers have been beheaded? Divide the number of soldiers who have been in iraq by that number.
    First off, stop wasting your employer's money & get back to work.
    First off, GFY, you have no idea of anything about me. The rest of your screed was OT.
    In Fallujuh, please keep in mind I lost 2 friends there
    Then you should go back and avenge them. Shoot some cripples in the face while you are at it.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#115)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:14:26 PM EST
    Care to document where it was policy for any of it
    Here here and here. Care to apologise?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#116)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:43:57 PM EST
    [We]Haven't begun to fight the war on terror. First of all, we can't discuss it amongst ourselves in this country because it's not politically correct to do so. Mr. Clinton and Mr. Bush decided that we're being attacked because they hate freedoms and liberties and elections and gender equality. As long as we're pursuing it from that side, we don't understand the enemy's motivation. We also like to say that they are people who are gangsters and criminals and on the lunatic fringe of the Muslim world, which makes a halfhearted effort to arrest them one man at a time justifiable. Both of those things are wrong. We're being attacked because of what we do in the world, and we're being attacked by a great and rising percentage of the Islamic world. If we don't come to grips with that, we lose. We haven't yet. I think the efforts we're making now on the war against terrorism 10 years from now are going to look infinitesimal because of the spread of Islamic anti-Americanism. When we look back 10 years from now, we will find that the fuel that fed that fire is a four-letter word called Iraq.
    Michael Schuer

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#117)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 03:02:43 PM EST
    Peaches, Of course he is right but increased attacks against the US because of our assine policies will just make it easier for the neocons to expand the war to further American hegemony. So the "failure" of Bush's polices actually helps the neocons in the long run. Pretty sick.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:49:02 PM EST
    You also forgot to mention depleted uranium shells in your little Fallujuh tirade.
    Good call. Hey, looks like our bud Justiceiro has left us. I will miss his well-reasoned rationalizations for our paramilitary death squads.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#119)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 11:21:55 AM EST
    BTW, are you a spanish speaker or not? Or did you just adopt the Che moniker because of revolutionary chic. A fashionable revolutionary. How charmingly middle class!

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#120)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 11:54:10 AM EST
    How Tom "Reagan was a genius" Wolfe. So, you're saying that once a person becomes a member of the American middle class that it's a prerequisite that they be ahistorical and superficial?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#121)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 11:56:02 AM EST
    No, it's just that middle class psuedorevolutionaries get iritated by references to their middle classness. I'm simply being snarky.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#122)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 12:02:21 PM EST
    Snarky. You're telling me. What I wonder about Wolfe is, how he keeps those suits so white through all that belly crawling.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#123)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 12:32:55 PM EST
    Justiceiro, The shame is that one little insult often makes the preceeding argument irrelavant. The middle class and elitist insults seem to me to be preety minor. I have never minded be refered to as such. Possibly, because the description fits. I was raised in the middle class and remain solidly there still. I have a lot of education, so I can be percieved as elitist. I am often overbearing with my opinions also. I also have the revolutionary and radical streak in me. I have no experience with the pure suffering of the poor and working class. At the same time, I also know little about the luxury of the upper end of the income scales. I have many high minded ideals that I like to believe go along with being able to empathize with the human condition everywhere. I also try not to speak for anyone. But, often, arguments can be construed any way my interlocutor wishes to twist them. It is the price of debate and rhetorical discussion. References to Ernestos elitism, liberalism, and class may appear justified from your perspective, Justiceiro, but they detract from the power and persuasiveness of your arguments. At the same time, I feel ernesto (and, now, Jondee and squeaky) are way to thin-skinned, especially compared to what some others around here throw out. How about just engaging Justiceiro based on the merits of his arguments and quit with the snarkiness on all sides?

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#124)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 12:44:58 PM EST
    Yeah well, I've experienced both ends of the spectrum, and with all due respect, if that's the best you've got (Im hoping it isnt), you can stick it my good man.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 23, 2006 at 12:49:06 PM EST
    Not you Peaches.

    Re: Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed (none / 0) (#126)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 24, 2006 at 04:33:40 AM EST
    I don't think "one little insult" makes an argument irrelevant. IT may distract from an argument, which is probably what Ernesto ontended to do when he called me genocidal. Unfortunately, I may have taken the bait a bit too much. What I find odd is that the thinnest skinned, such as Ernesto and (apparently Jondee) can't seem to bear insults, but my oh my they do love to throw that mud themselves, don't they! Sorry Jondee, I have never read Tom Wolfe, so I don't really get your reference. I tried once, but couldn't make it past the first chapter of "Bonfire of the Vanities." As for Ernesto engaging me based on what I am actually saying, rather than what he wished I would say, I'm not holding my breath. My feeling is that Ernesto is used to dealing with straw men. and likes it that way.

    Report: Captured Soldiers Were Killed Beheaded | 109 comments (109 topical)