IMHO - just caught up. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that expressed gratitude for your contributions was expected. I thought that the comment and the implied compliment would suffice. So thank you, and I apologize for the wrongful neglect.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion July 1, 2006 03:47 PM cib posted: Somewhat Chunky: One of the best most astute posts I've seen on these threads. I'm surprised IMHO didn't pick up on it, since she is pretty obsessive about this case. Busy chasing the little IMHOrugrats around the couch, I suppose. I don't have rugrats to chase around the couch. I wish I did. I'm sure the men and women who read and comment here who do care for their little ones will appreciate that their doing so is your idea of fodder for an insult.

That was not meant as an insult- I actually found the mental picture rather cute and funny. Too bad you took offence at the funny part, and overlooked my REAL jab at you which involved Chunky noting something you had not. But hey, caring for kids takes time, and now that we know you have none -and I'll actually wish you luck with that b/c you "wish you did"- we don't know the reason you missed that discrepancy. Hey, I also called you "obsessed". If you want to get p*ssed at me, at least get pi**ed for what I did do, and not what you merely think I did.

proceeded to the livingroom, led by Dan to do our show. There were about 20-25 young guys who were all sitting down.

how do i know this? simple, if there were a smoking gun, we'd have heard about it already, from someone (i've not forgotten you IMHO!). that we haven't tells me, without a smidgeon of doubt, that it doesn't exist.

Thanks for the update on Duke's troubles of late, imho. Is there a particular point you are trying to make with your article reference?

I'm sure a pro could enahnce this better than I, but that's what I see.

Sources associated with the lacrosse players legal team tell ABC News that they believe the photos to be authentic. They say it would be extremely difficult to falsify the time imprint and other recording data from the digital camera used to take the photos. They also cite corroborating evidence that includes a zoomed-in image of one player's wristwatch: The time on his watch matches the time of the digital imprint.

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.

The photographs show the accuser has bruises and cuts on her arms, legs and feet," Cheshire said. "These are visible at the very start of the dance.

Medical records and interviews...revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience.

PIP: A study was undertaken to clarify the concept of coitus-induced change in vaginal flora. Instead, evidence was found on the relation between vaginal flora and sperm survival. The presence of spermatozoa was recorded in 300 Pap smears of menstruant women taken within 7 days of, and in the same menstrual cycle as, coitus...[etc]

I've answered the question of Kim looking Finnerty in the eye quite a while back, before SomewhatChunky's comment. You obviously don't have to be anywhere near the same height as another person to look them "right in the eyes." Have you ever looked a child right in the eyes? Did you have to get on your knees or all fours to do it? I've noticed that Collin is quite a bit taller than his father, but when they are seated they are shoulder to shoulder. Collin's height appears to be in his legs. He may have been seated when Kim looked him "right in the eyes." from Kim's handwritten statement: proceeded to the livingroom, led by Dan to do our show. There were about 20-25 young guys who were all sitting down. In the line up transcript the accuser mentions someone sitting in "the front row" while they were dancing. I wonder if Finnerty was sitting in the back row where he his height wouldn't be apparent and his long legs may have been obscured? Maybe all she could see was that skinny neck and baby face.

n the rugrats comment - I'll let the parents of small children decide if that was the first "cute and funny" comment you've ever posted about me, or if it was part of your "REAL jab."

I've noticed that Collin is quite a bit taller than his father, but when they are seated they are shoulder to shoulder. Collin's height appears to be in his legs. He may have been seated when Kim looked him "right in the eyes."

Who here thinks I hate parents of small children or small children themselves? Anyone?

Roberts said Thursday she does not remember Seligmann's face, but said she recalls seeing Finnerty whom she described as the "little skinny one." "I was looking him right in the eyes," she said.

The players' attorneys have said their clients were angry and demanded a refund when the women stopped dancing, but Roberts disputed that. "They ripped themselves off when they started hollering about a broomstick," she said. The accuser told police that the women were coaxed back into the house with an apology, at which point they were separated. That's when she said she was dragged into a bathroom and raped, beaten and choked for a half hour.

I didn't say you hated parents of small children or small children themselves. You were making a jab at me, but missed your mark. Not to worry, I don't think anyone cares what you think of people who look after their little ones, but they might appreciate knowing that about you.

At risk of getting imhological, I wonder about the broomstick remark. It really does not strike me, in the context of a strip show, as all that offensive or all that unusual. It may be that the atmospherics of strip shows are different in the US and Australia, but at least in this hemisphere both performers and audience tend to exchange fairly gross remarks, remarks which in any other place would be deeply offensive. I'd guess Pittman's alleged remarks about the players' genitals were part of the same by-play.

Imho does not have any little ones. There is no way she could find a man that would put up with her hate to produce children.

At risk of getting imhological, I wonder about the broomstick remark. It really does not strike me, in the context of a strip show, as all that offensive or all that unusual.

Please everyone stop squabbling. If you're that bored, go to bed. (spoken as a mother of a former rugrat, heh.)

Ditto for Clausen's parents, who had worried about the stigma of being a Duke lacrosse player. They feared that their son would be "vilified" before he even stepped on campus. "We didn't want a part of that," Clausen's father, Jeff, said, "and that definitely played into our decision.

proceeded to the livingroom, led by Dan to do our show. There were about 20-25 young guys who were all sitting down .

Mike Tyson might have beat the rap if his lawyer wasn't so incompetent. Don King insisted that his lawyer represent Tyson. His lawyer dealt with civil stuff for king but had little to no criminal experience.

To James B. Shearer,

Read this simple article it may help out the next time you speak out your ass.

When hunting around for the photos of the AV at the party, I came across a "zoom-in" of the watch (sorry I didn't save the link) but it looked like a blur to me. Anyway, if the lawyers who have access to all their experts are saying things like there were extensive cuts and bruises, but folks here looking at the photos say it's all shadows and lighting, were the lawyers (and "reporters") a) mis-stating big time? or b) misinterpreting what they saw, because we can tell it's just shadows?, or c) right for once?

...It's also important to know that we are instructed to NOT do any alcohol or toxicology testing on rape victims, as it may be used against them in court. ...

James B, you made good points about cases involving non-consensual sex. I will just add that in the majority of sexual assault cases (about 60% I believe) the perp is known to the victim. Also, from my class I learned that the perp may have all the character witnesses he can find, not so the victim.

You buy a lottery ticket with six numbers. Your ticket tears in half and you only have three numbers out of six on your ticket. The three numbers on your ticket match three of the winning six numbers. You cannot prove where you bought the ticket (like you can't prove where the DNA came from or how it got on the nail). You cannot prove what the other three numbers are. You do not win the lottery.

This sounds ethically wrong to me, the exam should be looking for evidence that rape did not occur as well as evidence that it did occur. Doesn't this fall in the category of deliberately not looking for possibly exonerating evidence which is supposed to be a no-no for prosecutors?

Just as an aside, the more time I spend around imho the more I believe Skakel is probably innocent. You know, just from her fine work here.

In terms of the comment about sex one week prior, usually pathologists can tell from the appearance of the sperm how long it has been around. My understanding about the sperm that was found in the acccuser's vagina was that it was approxiamtely 0-3 days old, based on the appearance. After a few days the head separates from the tail

Weren't some of these same guys out in the backyard talking to Kim while waiting for Precious to show up? Didn't Kim claim some of them were even p*ssing off the porch? Hopefully, they at least stood up fot that.

victim: He said um he was going to stick a broomsticks up our @sses.

victim: He said um he was going to stick a broomsticks up your @sses.

He/she was not talking about how long spem can survive, as you have tried to twist it, but rather that it is possible to apporoximate, via simple microscopy, how long ago the sperm was deposited.

Also I read an account of the trial which said Fuller appeared to be terrified of Tyson which probably didn't go over too well with the jury.

I can see how it could be alarming to two dancers surrounded by "20-25" "drunk" "excited" "aggressive" "boys." And offensive in the sense that the level of disrespect displayed could cause them to feel their safety is threatened.

I don't doubt the broomstick remark was made. I do doubt that either performer was deeply effected.

Couldn't the millions of dollars a year Duke hands out in athletics scholarships be better spent on scholarships for deserving candidates from minority and other underrepresented groups based on academic merit and other achievements?

Orin Starn, you sir, are an idiot.

This is non-sequiter. Strippers cannot be disrespected. When one has no respect for oneself, how can one be disrespected. To be disrespected, you have to command at least some respect.

beenaround posted:

IMHO says:

It is a fact that a "partial match" can yield better statistics than a full CODIS 13 loci match.

Source please?

Haverford college (never heard of it) and Berkeley, big surprise there.

Ph.D. from Stanford University? Never heard of it.

...Prejudiced, angry, fearful juries can send innocent people to jail. So if PB's point is that despite the evidence a jury might convict she is right. That's why a lot of people would like this case dismissed: to keep this case out of the hands of the likes of PB.

Is the only reason then he [Finnerty] is now facing an actual trial in DC that he was arrested in NC on these charges?

If the lax player had made the comment in a threatening manner, the other guys would berate him for being a jerk. I'm certain it was made in an attempt to be grossly funny.

Newport - respectfully disagree with your comments re: strippers and respect. My impression lately is that a lot of the younger strippers today don't consider it all that big of a deal to strip for pretty good earnings, and their friends do not look down on them for it. Of course, the AV appears to have ample other problems and issues, besides extending into prostitution, so this particular stripper probably has very little self-respect.

I'd vote to lay off IMHO with the personal attacks. So far as I've read she hasn't directed any nasty comments towards anyone. By and large she has restricted herself to the data surrounding the case. You may not like what you believe to be her conclusions, but so what. I would also argue that without differing points of view this would all be pretty boring.

SomewhatChunky posted: If the lax player had made the comment in a threatening manner,.....

IMHO wrote:

Ph.D. from Stanford University? Never heard of it.

Well, I spent six years there. I assure you it is real.

Instead, the strippers decided unilaterally the show as over and the $800 was theirs to keep. I think with a drunk AV and the show not going well Kim saw a chance for a quick score, an easy exit and took it.

Although it seems to be PC to overlook it in this case when one describes the hardworking mother who is studying at NCCU, stripping is legal. Prostitution is not.

If you want to get into the morality of prostitution you are going to have to do better than the fact that it is illegal.

Do races have different allele? Specificially, if you had a database from all blacks, would they always be excluded from a partial match with a caucasian's DNA?

BTW, I think that many of the STRs used for profiles, while not being on coding genes are actually on promoters and such, like, say 5HTTPLR.

it would seem that Cheshire's and the other defense lawyers' credibility about the facts of the case is zip.

Regardless, it was the "cover-up" crack that got to me. Way too close to the mythical "blue wall" etc. I'm still touchy about that. My bad.

I agree with IMHO on the potential impact on an unsophisticated jury. If Nidung presents it as a "partial match" to Evans, they might not understand the defense's attempts to discredit this via scientific or statistical arguments and, hence, totally discount it.

Madison's post is definitive. Mix = no match & no partial match either. Let's hear no more of this topic.

First, a study was conducted by Silverman and Silverman in 1975 with a total of 675 women in 1975 (citation 2). Analysis revealed that "spermatozoa were found irregularly after the seventh and rarely after the tenth postcoital day." In that article, the authors also summarized other research documenting the presence of motile spermatazoa in the vagina for a period of time ranging from 3 hours (citation 3) to 24 hours (citation 4) following intercourse, and in the cervix from 110 hours (citation 5) to 7 days (citation 6) afterward. The authors even cited research reporting nonmotile spermatozoa in the cervix for 12 days (citation 7) and in the vagina for lengths of time varying from 14 hours to 17 days (citation 7-12). Finally, the authors cite anecdotal reports of spermatozoa persisting "in the vaginas of rape-murder victims for 70 days (citation 5) and three to four months" (citation 13). Taken together, this research strongly suggests that the "72-hour rule" may dramatically underestimate how long evidence of spermatazoa could potentially be recovered from the body of a sexual assault victim.

Madison's post is definitive. Mix = no match & no partial match either. Let's hear no more of this topic.

Suppose there is an allele which codes for as far as we know a unique trait, say 22 fingers on the right hand. Let's suppose that we have mixture of DNA which contains alleles from two people. Within the mixture we find the code for 22 fingers along with a 5 finger code. I would say that out of all the people in the world have narrowed it down to the person with 22 fingers and some other person whom we do not know.

Well done, IMHO, and thank you.

imho (master of timelines) Do you know if the lab results which 'implicated' Evans came back before or after the AV 'identified' him. If the results came back before the ID then given the 'oddities' of the line-up procedure I would suspect that the AV may have had some help by Nifong et al.

Sources also confirmed with WRAL on Thursday that tissue found under a fake fingernail is a partial DNA match to a Duke lacrosse player who has not been charged in connection with the case.

The fingernail, found in a bathroom trash can, apparently belonged to the accuser, who told police that she clawed her attackers during the alleged struggle. The fingernail was taken from the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., where the March 13 party was held.

Initial testing by the State Bureau of Investigation on 46 lacrosse athletes' DNA samples found no link between the dancer and the players. Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong sent various samples to a private lab for further testing.

Maybe she did take a quick peek into the bathroom. That could explain Kim's claim that he was "the skinny little one."

lora why are you debating about an offensive remark, what does that have to do with a gang rape and beating, i think thats disgusting how u want these boys convicted when they are innocent, and as a woman y es i beluieve that a woman who goes to strangers houses butt naked deserves WHATEVER she gets, even though in this case the boys did nothing,

Partial DNA matches must always be suspect, I figure; it seems to me entirely possible for a "partial profile" to be erroneously generated from a mixture.

Alan, maybe Kim misspoke and looked him "right in the eye."

JSwift, an extraordinary post. I'll be curious to hear Kim's vital role in paying off the cab driver, the phony ATM photo, and how the crowd at the Cosmic Cantina were all duped.

Instead, the strippers decided unilaterally the show as over and the $800 was theirs to keep. I think with a drunk AV and the show not going well Kim saw a chance for a quick score, an easy exit and took it.

JSwift, an extraordinary post. I'll be curious to hear Kim's vital role in paying off the cab driver, the phony ATM photo, and how the crowd at the Cosmic Cantina were all duped.

Do you mean that no self-respecting woman would be a stripper? Do you mean that it's quite all right to insult/degrade a stripper? What, they won't feel it like non-stripping women would?

As far as Cheshire's remark that an offensive remark ended the dance being made early on when the facts were not known (Alan), and that the pictures of the AV were full of artfacts that only looked like bruises, despite what the defense lawyers said who offered them as exculpatory evidence, it would seem that Cheshire's and the other defense lawyers' credibility about the facts of the case is zip.

If I were the defense I would not at all try to discredit the partial match.

Lora, you misunderstood my post. I said sperm didn't LIVE past 3 days in the vagina, meaning alive and motile. Sperm can be found and identified in the the vagina for up to a week after intercourse, as I said in my orginal post, but past about three days they are DEAD. And the source of the sperm, as in the DNA, can be usually be identified, even if the sperm are dead.

Does anyone know what the source of the DNA was that was found on the figernail?

I read "tissue" was found under the figernail but did that mean skin or Kleenex with DNA on it?

The finding could be the first DNA evidence possibly linking the so-called exotic dancer and a lacrosse player. It will be impossible to match the tissue DNA with the alleged attacker with 100 percent certainty, the Herald Sun added.

IMHO, please stop being b*tchy to cib. I didn't think his remark was insulting to you, and he's said it wasn't meant to be. If it didn't upset you, you sure could have fooled me with that gratuitously snarky "cover up" remark.

The first lab may have found the semen sample on a swab, but could not get a dna profile possibly due to degredation or contamination, but the second lab was successful.

As for whether anyone knows there was a rape, I can think of four people who probably do, but only one that's talking.

That isn't my point. But I do agree that the risk of a conviction would be greatly reduced if the defendants could avoid a trial.

I guess the next question would be to figure out the number which qualifies as beyond a reasonable doubt....In a case where the penalty is very high, such as in rape, I would want beyond a reasonable doubt to be something like 1000:1 and up

By the time the samples got to where the DNA testing was done they would have been dead one way or the other

Would you prefer a thousand rapists go free over one innocent person to be convicted of rape? I wouldn't.

The first lab may have found the semen sample on a swab, but could not get a dna profile possibly due to degredation or contamination, but the second lab was successful.

Not likely. The first lab ran the evidence samples as well as the suspects samples at the same time through the same protocol and compared the results to identify a match or matches. Different labs run slightly different protocols, therefore the "results" from one lab shouldn't be compared to one from another lab.

The first time the DNA was run, the lab didn't have samples from the boyfriend and drivers to run and compare to the evidence samples. Their samples weren't provided until time for the second round of DNA tests, hence the delay in identifying the contributor of the specimen.

DNA samples taken from 46 members of the lacrosse team failed to match evidence taken from the accuser. Nifong sent the samples to a private laboratory for more sophisticated tests that the State Bureau of Investigation crime lab is not certified to perform.

GRACE: I don`t see it either. Dr. Hunter, it`s my understanding after about three days spermatozoa has totally dissolved from a couple of hours two three days they start to disintegrate, fall apart. The head of the sperm, the tail of the sperm falls off and you can actually look at the sperm under a microscope and generally gauge the age of the sperm, if you catch it in time. HUNTER: Yeah, right, and another thing is that, during this rape kit, they`re going to have microscopic sections. They`re going to have slides that they`re looking for, spermatozoa to see if there is spermatozoa there, so they may have found something and if they can define the morphology of it, that I think blows it out of the water that it would be a week out, it would have to be within that three day time frame.

I also found an article which stated a woman has a 10% chance of becoming pregnant if she has sex within 5 days of ovulation.

Provided there was vaginal ejaculation without a condom, spermatozoa should be found in the vagina for 24 hours after intercourse. However, they may be identified for up to 3 days and, occasionally, for up to 7 days.

As to lawyers who can spin however they want and still be thought of as credible, well, that's incredible.

As to lawyers who can spin however they want and still be thought of as credible, well, that's incredible.

Would you prefer a thousand rapists go free over one innocent person to be convicted of rape? I wouldn't. And murderers? Should a thousand go free for each one unfairly convicted?

but is 7 day spermatozoa motile or non motile? That's the question.

If 7 day sperm is non-motile, and if the AV's swab showed motile sperm, the AV lied.

Exactly, Bob. I'm not sure I see the relevance of 7 days prior versus 3 days prior, except for possibly more questions about the accuser's credibility.

The problem, though, with basing everything on the age of the sperm is that she easily could have had protected sex immediately before dancing at the Duke party, causing the vaginal swelling but not leaving any traces. So dating the sperm only lets us know the last time she had unprotected sex, nothing else.

It is a math error to believe that if one set the threshhold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to 1000:1 that this would result in 1000 guilty defendants going free for every innocent one not falsely convicted.

If you like we can try to make a model to get a rough idea of what the numbers might be in the real world.

Another way to ask the question is if someone came to you and said you must go to jail for 20 years and be branded forever a rapist or we have to let 1000 rapists free, what would you do? My rule of thumb is if I don't have the balls to do it myself I wouldn't ask someone else to do it for me.

We know that there is no witness to any gang rape or anything looking or even approaching a rape.

We know that there is no physical evidence of a rape.

We know that at least one, probably two of the men accused of rape weren't even there when it could have possibly happened

(and the third guy unfortunately lived there in the house but didn't have the defining mustache).

Maybe she did take a quick peek into the bathroom. That could explain Kim's claim that he was "the skinny little one."

PB, you claim to not know much of what Bob stated in his summary of events.

so, then, she wasn't talking about his....height.....(heh)

So those famous spinning lawyers have said. In several instances they've attacked the AV's credibility with mis-statements of their own.

Maybe Lora can explain how the foreign sperm remained in the FA for a week and after a three man gang rape, which should have sucked it out if true and which should have left behind its own evidence of the attack.

Mixtures of more than one semen donor:

Many of these samples tested could be shown to be mixtures of more than one semen donor. This number might still be an underestimation, since with the limited discrimination rate of the current four-locus haplotype it is possible for two semen donors to have the same Y-STR profile. Semen on 12% of the vaginal and anal swabs and 21% of the underwear stains contained DNA from more than one male individual.

That's not true. We don't know if they used condoms. We don't know if they ejaculated. We do know your "sucked out" theory has been disproven. Even when condoms are not used and there is ejaculation the previous semen sample is not necessarily displaced.

Semen on 12% of the vaginal and anal swabs and 21% of the underwear stains contained DNA from more than one male individual.

GRACE: Dr. Michael Hunter is with us tonight, forensic pathologist. He`s also a medical examiner. Dr. Hunter, I`m sure you know in your experience about the rape shield law, any prior sex activities, if they exist, on behalf of the rape, the alleged rape victim, are inadmissible in court. She is not to be tried on her reputation, but let`s say she did have sex. Say a week before this incident, which I have reason to believe. That`s not a felony. Last time I checked the law books, but would evidence of that voluntary sexual intercourse still come up in the rape kit? Would there still be sperm a week later? DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER: No, one thing about sperm and in a rape kit, you`re going to have a yield that drops off pretty precipitously say at 12 hours to 24 hours. You are not going to expect to see usable DNA from sperm after, say 72 hours. A week out, I don`t see that that`s going to be possible here. GRACE: I don`t see it either. Dr. Hunter, it`s my understanding after about three days spermatozoa has totally dissolved from a couple of hours two three days they start to disintegrate, fall apart. The head of the sperm, the tail of the sperm falls off and you can actually look at the sperm under a microscope and generally gauge the age of the sperm, if you catch it in time. HUNTER: Yeah, right, and another thing is that, during this rape kit, they`re going to have microscopic sections. They`re going to have slides that they`re looking for, spermatozoa to see if there is spermatozoa there, so they may have found something and if they can define the morphology of it, that I think blows it out of the water that it would be a week out, it would have to be within that three day time frame.

in stating that the AV was significantly injured upon arrival and maybe by falling down stairs (pictures to prove), was in error. OR they were in error by stating at a later date she had no visible injuries except a few minor scratches. If the latter is true, somehow they didn't notice earlier that the bruises were just artifacts of the pictures.

We don't know if they used condoms.

The rape is alleged to have continued for 30 minutes.

Redfern is the last station on the railway before Sydney Central. 'Getting off at Redfern' has a certain meaning to Sydneysiders.

But so is Town Hall and Museum. Does 'getting off' at Town Hall have the same meaning?

As to the question of 1000 rapists go free vs. 1 innocent go to jail, I'd probably come down on the side of the innocent.

Any person who engages in the type of character assasination that imho does is not someone to be admired. To the contrary, she is someone who deserves scorn for her offensive comments and hatred.

I would guesstimate about 1% of people in prison are innocent of the crime they were convicted of. In the unlikely event these boys are convicted, they won't be the only innocents in jail.

She's [imho] smart - because of that I actually thinks she thinks the player are innocent. But you'll never get her to admit that or change her mind publicly.

And what percentage of the people tried and found innocent of the charges for which they were tried would you guesstimate were in fact guilty?

I'd guess it's far higher. The prosecution has to prove it - that can be very hard in some cases. The defense need do nothing. It's not a game with equal rules for both sides. It was set up that way on purpose.

These players may not be angels, but they have already suffered more for their perceived transgressions than any persons in the history of the U.S.

I would add that in a multiple successive intercourse situation that the last in line for intercourse would be the most likely to leave DNA behind. It seems to me that the DNA resultant from the first intercourse would be the first DNA to be displaced. So, I do maintain that displacement theory is relevant here and may be used to show that no gang rape occurred.

Semen on 12% of the vaginal and anal swabs and 21% of the underwear stains contained DNA from more than one male individual.

She's smart - because of that I actually thinks she thinks the player are innocent. But you'll never get her to admit that or change her mind publicly.

Any person who engages in the type of character assasination that imho does is not someone to be admired. To the contrary, she is someone who deserves scorn for her offensive comments and hatred. I am sorry if I may seem insensitive to delicate sensibilities but I do not appreciate imho's tactics and I will make my feelings known.

Afterall, the "false accuser" is also innocent until proven guilty.

Afterall, the "false accuser" is also innocent until proven guilty.

Her right to the presumption of innocence is not a right to have others put on trial without reasonable cause.

It is interesting to hear the widespread whining about District Attorney Mike Nifong lately. His error? Taking a bunch of white boys to trial with an apparently weak case. How much widespread whining would there be if these three were poor young black men who would actually be languishing in jail until their trial sometime next year?

No one would be hearing about weak evidence because the general audience around here doesn't care if it is young black guys. These young men are put in the corner to rot if they have no money or well-placed advocates.

Mike Nifong has the integrity to carry this case forward as he would if these three dudes were poor young guys who were being charged. The big difference here is a full blown O.J. defense, public scrutiny, and a valuable chance to see the justice system applied in a consistent way. LARRY BUMGARDNER, Durham, July 3, 2006

These players may not be angels, but they have already suffered more for their perceived transgressions than any persons in the history of the U.S.

"I'm privy to more information than people on the other side of [this are]. They haven't released the pictures of her... the bruises, the black eye. Where did she get that?" Jakki rhetorically asked.

Whoa, whoa, whoa IMHO. You are smart enough to know that the accuser has no right to "innocence until proven guilty."

white boys vs black men

I was thinking some of the 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry who were forced to relocate to internment camps during World War II, most of whom were American citizens, may have suffered more.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion

Alan posted: Her right to the presumption of innocence is not a right to have others put on trial without reasonable cause.

Was she on the grand jury?

My questions are 1) would a jury composed of individuals with modest educational levels understand this, and 2) would a competent judge allow the evidence to even be presented or pre-emptively warn the DA NOT to present it as a "partial match"?

So, because poor blacks have been railroaded in the past, it's OK to railroad whites now.

Things won't get to the point of needing to show how a non-excluded person need not necessarily be a source.