Localone I believe asked if there was any other kind of rape besides "forcible," and yes, in PA anyway, nonconsensual sexual intercourse is a 2nd degree felony. No force necessary. Person says no. That's where the injuries come in. If the victim has an injury, you can say force was used and it's 1st degree rape. Without an injury (or a weapon) how are you going to prove force? So you go to 2nd degree rape.

fillin, how does Bunny Hole fit into all of that?

fillin, you are correct re Angel's. I just checked Shelton's report. So Bunny Hole just have contractual relations with Angel's too.

The three players that she positively identified were the fourth, fifth, and seventh pictures that she saw. These are the only three positive identifications that were made.

I think both reports are well written - maybe too well written. On my own, I probably would have had misspelled words.

Meanwhile, a lacrosse hearing previously scheduled for Monday has been pushed back to the week of July 17 at the request of defense lawyers.

[snip]

Thomas said Thursday that he and other lawyers wanted Monday's hearing postponed because it conflicted with travel plans some had made for the Fourth of July holiday.

"Mr. Nifong gave us only five working days' notice on that schedule," Thomas said. "We weren't consulted on the date, which was in the middle of what many consider to be a four-day holiday weekend."

The lawyers, Thomas Manning of Raleigh and Bob Ekstrand of Durham, representing lacrosse player Frederick Krom Jr., and Bill Thomas of Durham, representing Bruce Edward Thompson, asked a judge to quash two subpoenas issued by Nifong May 31.

the last time i checked, suborning perjury was a criminal offense.

the cell phone calls could have been made by anyone, not just the owner. in the absence of of witnesses who will swear that's who they talked to, it bears little weight.;

the atm records are, again, not conclusive, unless accompanied by time/date stamped photographs, showing the accused as the one using it.;

as the one the dorm entry records. again, not compelling in and of itself, unless accompanied by either time/date stamped photos, or eyewitnesses who can place the accused in the dorm at the time/date noted.

the most compelling, at least for the moment, is the cab driver's eyewitness testimony, as to the whereabouts of the accused, and his records should support this.

This is not defense "spin." And these facts strongly suggest that the accuser could well be lying - and thus that it might well be suborning perjury for the D.A. to put her on the stand.

to inmyhumbleopinion

You don't know if Wellington talked Reade after 12:14am.

Wellington could have talked to Reade before 12:14am.

Wellington could have been talking to Reade (that's how he found out that "we were both tired from playing golf") when Reade was redialing his g/f.

Its only after 12:14 that Reade told Wellington he called a cab

2. I was at the lacrosse party at 61 0 N. Buchanan Blvd. in Durham, NC on March 13 running over to March 14, 2006. After the two women danced for a few minutes in the main livingroom, they then left the main living room.

3. Shortly thereafter, I then left the residence through the back door and talked to Reade. As, I went out the back door, I did not see or hear anything unusual. Once outside, I saw Reade, who appeared normal in all respects. We were both tired from playing golf that afternoon, and we had practice the next day. In addition the dancers had stopped dancing and were obviously impaired when they left the main living room. Reade said he had just called a cab and asked if I wanted to leave with him.

If he was standing there with Reade discussing golf and practice and watching him dial his girlfriend's number, why did Reade have to tell him he just called a cab?

Perhaps Wellington could not hear because of the noise level generated by Seligmann's participation in a vicious and violent sexual assault in the bathroom.

He's totally innocent. It's totally not Collin, anybody that knows Collin, he's a very gentle boy and it's not within his character at all.

until she can explain how "a very gentle boy" was charged with assult in DC

It seems impossible that not a single juror, among twelve, would find the evidence to raise a reasonable doubt.

"It was an argument between two young guys who were sizing each other up," she said. "Both sides had an equal portion of discussion, so we felt it wasn't specifically a hate crime. So we waived the option there."

Finnerty's parents on NBC claim he was at a restaurant, have phone records, witnesses, and commercial receipt.

Do any of the attorneys have thoughts on why Stevens has done this for the players? When in court, he seemed to be siding with Nifong over other matters. Does lowering the bond send any message of the direction of this case?

According to police reports, Finnerty, Dagnes and Bonnano punched and beat Jeff Bloxsom and Scott Herndon early on Nov. 5 after showering them with anti-gay remarks.

Bloxsom, who is not gay, yelled back. The fight left Bloxsom with a bruised chin and busted lip.

The case was suspended after Finnerty agreed to pay Bloxsom's medical bills, perform community service and stay out of trouble for six months.

If convicted, Finnerty could be sentenced to up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $1,000.

Finnerty is "a very gentle boy" and Bloxsom is a "the loser."

Did Nifong raise any objections to the bail reductions?

I think the reduction in the bonds is an indication of Stevens' perception of the strength of Nifong's case, based on the documents he has seen thus far.

we were told there was force, and that the AV struggled and fought back. How much force, and the extent of the struggle, is unknown.

Republican lawyer fails to earn spot on ballot in Durham DA race

The parents of one of three Duke University men's lacrosse players charged with raping a woman at a team party said their son has evidence to prove his innocence and has passed a polygraph test indicating he didn't commit the crime. In an interview with NBC's "Today" that aired Friday, Kevin Finnerty would not reveal specifics of his son's alibi. But he mentioned the cell phone records of his son, Collin Finnerty, at the time in question and electronic records showing when his son returned to his dormitory that night.

Further, at this point I'm not sure what good it is doing to hold back on CF's alibi.

Thomas said Thursday that he and other lawyers wanted Monday's hearing postponed because it conflicted with travel plans some had made for the Fourth of July holiday.

The only reason I can think of for holding back is what T&T said re not getting in trouble with the DC court over alcohol.

Imho, your post of 6:52 am was fair and reasonable and useful. What has gotten into you?

and has his head buried up his you know what

He thinks she's telling the truth that she was raped. [snip] Nifong's obviously misguided and has his head buried up his you know what but to suggest that he would knowingly encourage false testimony is going a bit far.

Posted by Newport June 30, 2006 12:47 PM

Suborning perjury will never wash. Nifong's not going to tell her to lie on the stand. He thinks she's telling the truth that she was raped. She's a little mixed up on the details but that's just trauma etc. She can explain that away. Nifong's obviously misguided [and has his head buried up his you know what] but to suggest that he would knowingly encourage false testimony is going a bit far.

Newport, I hate to say this, but methinks you're being a little dopey, yourself, here. Are you medicating yourself to get an early start on the weekend, by any chance.

cpinva posted: the cell phone calls could have been made by anyone, not just the owner. in the absence of of witnesses who will swear that's who they talked to, it bears little weight.;

I agree. By the lengths of the calls and the number of redials, I doubt he spoke to anyone. He may have left messages.

Though he may have been a fair guy in the past, this case is a long way from traffic court.

But, all that being said, I do think he "believes" the FA despite all the reasons for not doing so.

Maybe the FA in person comes off as incredibly sincere. I don't know because I haven't seen her. Some patheological liars come off as sincere. They are good at lying.

Thus, I do not believe that he would be suborning perjury by the mere act of putting the FA on the stand. I further don't believe that he will tell her to lie. She can do that all by herself and doesn't need Nifong's encouragement.

very good article of why liethong could & should be sued.... here

We next consider petitioner's claims regarding Fitzsimmons' statements to the press. Petitioner alleged that, during the prosecutor's public announcement of the indictment, Fitzsimmons made false assertions that numerous pieces of evidence, including the bootprint evidence, tied Buckley to a burglary ring that committed the Nicarico murder.

None of the 'facts' I know at this time, indeed, none of the evidence I have seen from any source, has changed the opinion that I expressed initially.

I would like to think that somebody who was not in the bathroom has the human decency to call up and say, "What am I doing covering up for a bunch of hooligans?" I'd like to be able to think that there were some people in that house that were not involved in this and were as horrified by it as the rest of us are.

Nifong has, reportedly, tried over 300 felony cases, almost one quarter of which were murder cases. No one has said he is not a good trial attorney.

If that is the case, Newport, he is definitely in the wrong job. If he can't put some distance between his emotions and the facts, he is too dangerous to wield the amount of power that NC affords him.

I don't share your view of his ethics given his conduct in this case so far. I feel he intentionally misled the court in the original warrants. I think he violated all the lineup procedures intentionally as well. I hope at some point he can find a way to exit gracefully, but if he can't I think he'll be looking to win - not discover the truth.

I will just say for the record that the real Freda Black is too much for fiction, she might have to be toned down.

Who plays Nifong, do you think?

Nor did I. Why quote me and imply something I did not say?

He wants to believe the FA for the same reasons that others like Georgia Goslee, Cash Michaels, Victoria Peterson, IMHO, etc. want to believe the FA. It is a powerful emotion we are talking about here.

All the media would report during the long lulls in the "rape case" would be how CF had violated his agreement, not just with respect to alcohol, but regarding the curfew.

This case in DC really hasn't been given much attention so far, and from what I can tell, that's probably fitting.

Finnerty, 19, could face up to six months in jail on the charge in the District. The charging documents quote the victim as saying that Finnerty and two other men accosted him early Nov. 5 on Wisconsin Avenue NW after calling him gay and making derogatory remarks.

Bayly allowed Finnerty, from Garden City, N.Y., to be released on his own recognizance. But he placed new conditions on Finnerty and his two co-defendants. They must abide by a 9 p.m. curfew, contact court officials weekly and stay away from alcohol. If they violate the conditions, Bayly said, he would not hesitate to put them in the D.C. jail or a halfway house.

Codefendants Patrick Bonanno and Daniel D'Agnes will not be tried - their previous agreements stand - but the judge modified their curfew. Despite arguments from defense lawyers that they had "absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened in North Carolina," the judge said they, along with Finnerty, had to remain in their homes between 9 p.m. and 6 a.m.

The judge also told the three defendants they had to avoid places where alcohol is consumed and to stay away from the alleged victim.

The parents were reluctant to discuss the precise details, but the mother corrected a statement by the father regarding the timing of CF's arrival - he said CF saw the strippers arrive and depart - she said that wasn't correct - that CF was late to the party (thus, it's not clear from the interview which "arrival" CF saw). The point is that it appears that the overlap in time for CF and RS is relatively short - and may be a null set (depending upon which arrival he saw).

There's a history there. I think the story is that the guy kept harassing him in the bar.

They should have stuck to what they said on the interview I saw.

Bloxsom has a witness,

The very mediocrity that gave rise to all the resentment and made him what he is is now the formula for his destruction.

I don't want her story to be true. I don't want her to have been attacked. I don't want these young men to have done that to anyone. Why would I?

wumhenry - why do you expect a split jury?

The only statements I recall Nifong making since there were any identified defendants or even named suspects...

And don't think that Nifong doesn't know the foregoing, which makes him even more despicable, in my humble opinion.

The functional approach of Imbler, which conforms to the common law theory, leads us to the same conclusion. Comments to the media have no functional tie to the judicial process just because they are made by a prosecutor. At the [509 U.S. 259, 278] press conference, Fitzsimmons did not act in "`his role as advocate for the State,'" Burns v. Reed, supra, 500 U.S., at 500 U.S., 491, quoting Imbler v. Pachtman, 424 U.S., at 431 , n. 33. The conduct of a press conference does not involve the initiation of a prosecution, the presentation of the state's case in court, or actions preparatory for these functions. Statements to the press may be an integral part of a prosecutor's job, see National District Attorneys Assn., National Prosecution Standards 107, 110 (2d ed. 1991), and they may serve a vital public function. But in these respects, a prosecutor is in no different position than other executive officials who deal with the press, and, as noted above, supra, at 268, 277, qualified immunity is the norm for them.

Let me revise my comments just slightly. I do believe that Seligman would be acquited at trial no matter the jury because his alibi is so strong, but the other two would get hung. The fingernail, if admitted, WILL be very important to that jury.

Nifong said on national TV that if he believed the accuser that he was duty bound to pursue the case and that was what he was going to do.

The prosecutor in a criminal case shall: (a) refrain from prosecuting a charge that the prosecutor knows is not supported by probable cause;

Nifong said on national TV that if he believed the accuser that he was duty bound to pursue the case and that was what he was going to do.

Newport's said (and acted out) many things in many places.

A couple of things. The players asserted that the AV was painting her nails while she locked herself in the bathroom. The defense has pictures of the AV during the dance (with some missing fake nails) and unpainted real nails

After the dance, on the way out of the house, I believe the defense has pictures that suggests that her nails have now been painted. This would support the players assertion and cast doubt on a rape charge - if the nails were painted early on - then Seligmann is definitely out - and painting the nails after a rape makes no sense at all.

Finnerty's witnesses may be in a position where they have to take the fifth to avoid incriminating themselves.

Were you implying anything with your "Though he may have been a fair guy in the past, this case is a long way from traffic court" comment?

Defense attorneys said they had offered to show the pictures to District Attorney Mike Nifong, but he declined to see them.

One of the lawyers who is a laughing stock in town, truly, has a gig with a cable network and a national news magazine. Could not have happened to a more undeserving guy, who knows less about the law.

"I've tried every kind of case against him, from murder to speeding," Durham defense lawyer Bill Thomas said after the governor announced Nifong's appointment. "He is just an outstanding courtroom lawyer."

Did Nifong say this after the DNA came back proving that the AV gave a false statement to the police in a felony investigation regarding her sexual abstinance over the prior week?

DNA experts tell ABC News that genetic traces of semen can remain in the body up to six days after intercouse.

Huh? I am I Nifong now just because I said I didn't think he would knowingly suborn perjury?

I don't want her story to be true. I don't want her to have been attacked. I don't want these young men to have done that to anyone. Why would I?

You mean, we have not been told how much force was used? Not so. According to the police affidavit, she was hit in the face, kicked, and strangled, and her arms and legs were restrained.

I don't want her story to be true. I don't want her to have been attacked. I don't want these young men to have done that to anyone. Why would I?

Nifong said on national TV that if he believed the accuser that he was duty bound to pursue the case and that was what he was going to do.

My position has always been that I do not know who is lying here. I'd like to hear the accuser tell her story herself and I'd like to see the rest of prosecution's case before deciding who I think is lying. My position requires no vindication

DNA experts tell ABC News that genetic traces of semen can remain in the body up to six days after intercouse.

Best I can tell, a week has been 7 days for a good bit more than 2000 years

This always struck me as a bit out of the ordinary since I could never fathom keeping a log of ones encounters but perhaps thats just me and maybe Johnson and the AV were trying to have a child and they were tracking her monthly ovulation cycle for maximum effect.

And I'm not sure that the assertion that "genetic traces of semen can remain in the body up to six days after intercouse" tells us how long semen can be there and still produce a complete DNA match, like they got to Johnson.

My position has always been that I do not know who is lying here. I'd like to hear the accuser tell her story herself and I'd like to see the rest of prosecution's case before deciding who I think is lying. My position requires no vindication, yours may

She did say it was with her boyfriend and it was her boyfriend's semen.

Do you think if she had been off by one day in recalling/relating when she last had consensual intercourse Nifong should determine she is a liar and should doubt her claims on that false statement?

Do you think if she had been off by one day in recalling/relating when she last had consensual intercourse Nifong should determine she is a liar and should doubt her claims on that false statement? She did say it was with her boyfriend and it was her boyfriend's semen.

ere are many reasons Nifong should determine she is a liar. Not sure this makes the top 20...

Don't understand how foreign semen could survive with a three man gang rape. Wouldn't it be "driven" out so to speak? Maybe someone can explain that one to me.

TH's on TV all say after 72 hours to forget collecting semen.

Could he be keeping track of the rides he gave her and the hours spent waiting in the car for purposes of reimbursement from the escort agency? He may have remembered the "encounter" by looking up what day he brought her to which hotel. The "encounter" took place in a hotel.

Don't understand how foreign semen could survive with a three man gang rape. Wouldn't it be "driven" out so to speak? Maybe someone can explain that one to me.

Don't understand how foreign semen could survive with a three man gang rape. Wouldn't it be "driven" out so to speak? Maybe someone can explain that one to me.

said she recalls seeing Finnerty -- whom she described as the "little skinny one." "I was looking him right in the eyes," she said.

What in the world would counter charges have to do with anything? You don't know one bit of the evidence about what happened on the street. It was a fight like the fights that happen every single night on the streets around Georgetown when the bars empty out at 2 am. Maybe the other guy did something verbally or otherwise to cause CF to strike. That is self-defense and the fact that the other two or three may have taken pleas is absolutely meaningless.

I don't want her story to be true. I don't want her to have been attacked. I don't want these young men to have done that to anyone. Why would I?

D.C. prosecutors did not treat the attack as a hate crime, said U.S. Attorney spokesperson Stephanie Bragg Lee, because the circumstances didn't warrant hate crime status. "It was an argument between two young guys who were sizing each other up," she said. "Both sides had an equal portion of discussion, so we felt it wasn't specifically a hate crime. So we waived the option there."

Do people here think Nifong actually lied about the evidence and just made it up to fit the AV's description of the rape? What about Detective Hinan and the injuries mentioned in the search warrant? (I know, I know, "consistent with," but you can't get injuries "consistent with" out of no injuries at all - the exception being the va*inal swelling/redness.) And the behavior? Did Hinan just make the stuff up? What about the ESPN witness? Was he/she made up? A plant?

I mean, if the injuries were just made up, that would be criminal. Seems unlikely to me.

My understanding in PA is that "no means no" for 2nd degree rape. Proving that, however, would be very difficult. It would be "he said/she said," and how do you get past reasonable doubt? That's probably one reason why you don't get as many charges as you might think. Another reason is that if the perp denies the charge, the victim generally goes through hell (in terms of being called a liar, held in contempt, ostracized, denied support), and generally more hell than the perp, from the stories I've heard in class. Add that to the emotional struggle with dealing with the rape itself, and you have less charges filed.

Tyson says he wants to rape victim and her mother By CORKY SIEMASZKO New York Daily News

NEW YORK - Former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson said talking about the beauty queen he was jailed for raping in 1991 makes him so mad he would rape her - and her mother.

"She's a lying, monstrous young lady - I just hate her guts," Tyson said. "She puts me in that state where I don't know . . . but now I really do want to rape her and her (expletive) mama."

In an explosive interview with Fox News Channel's Greta Van Susteren, Tyson claimed "slimy" Desiree Washington accused him of assaulting her in an Indiana hotel room because she was "money hungry."

"Anybody else having fun like that, it's young boys having fun," Tyson said. "But it's me, I'm a big black rapist. . . . That's the stigma I'm left with."

So you would like to see the AV give a press conference and admit she made the whole story up? I am not entirely convinced.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. If you punch somebody in a fist fight it is no more self defense than if you shoot somebody in a duel. And the other two taking pleas implies it was three on one not exactly a fair fight.

Imho, as I have said many times before there should be no dispute that the FA had sex with at least 5 different men in the 3 days prior to the party. It's really a minor miracle that more semen (a mixed sample if you will) wasn't found in her. Although most of Precious clients probably did use condoms as Nifong said, sex with the FA without a condom would not be a wise choice.

This info is much more pertinent to explain the diffuse edema than to whether Precious lied about her chastity.

"It was an argument between two young guys who were sizing each other up," she said. "Both sides had an equal portion of discussion, so we felt it wasn't specifically a hate crime. So we waived the option there."

"I think it's pretty clear that while he was not the victim of a gay bashing, the intent of those words was clearly along those lines," Royer said

"This has been picked up [in the media] as an issue of gay bashing," Royer said. "Frankly, to us, it's relevant, but the real crux of our situation is a violent act was committed and now we're left to deal with it."

According to court records for the Georgetown assault, Bloxsom told police "he was minding his business" when Finnerty and two other men "began picking on him for no apparent reason."

Records say Bloxsom "told them to stop calling him gay and other derogatory names." When Bloxsom tried to walk away, the three men "attacked him, busting his lip and bruising his chin." Bloxsom was treated for his injuries.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Ben Curtis said his office had discussed Finnerty's Durham case "at length" and had concerns about similarities between charges in Durham and in Washington. In both cases, Curtis said, Finnerty "was out late at night, drinking alcohol, and with lacrosse teammates."

I know, I made it up from whole cloth didn't I.

How big (I'm talking height here) is ole Kim anyway? I don't think she was looking him in the eyes. Colin's 6'3" and is one of the biggest guys on the team. They have one guy at 6'6", a few a 6'4" and then there is Colin at 6'3". Seems that in a room full of Duke Lax Players, he'd be the tall one. I've also read differing accounts of his weight - some say he's around 210, though the roster says he's 175.

Don't understand how foreign semen could survive with a three man gang rape. Wouldn't it be "driven" out so to speak?

In any case, if Nifong doesn' "know" he is persecuting the innocent only because he has refused to look at evidence he must expect would be exculpatory, he may not be acting from actual malice, but is certainly acting from depraved indifference, which is morally every bit as bad, though in the zany NC legal system it may somehow be less criminal.

No, not from whole cloth, from assumptions that her "dates" always include v@ginal sex with a man. According to her they do not. The one date about which we heard the particulars did not include it.

You make all manner of assumptions when it comes to CF re "how he is going down" etc., but you try to make this nasty stripper/hooker into something wholesome.

Cheshire said the testing did find some genetic material from several people on a plastic fingernail found in a bathroom trash can of the house where the team held the March 13 party. He said some of that material had the "same characteristics" - a link short of a conclusive match - to some of the players, but not the two who have been charged with rape, kidnapping and sexual assault.

People make mistakes especially when they want to believe something.

What do you think hookers do in hour long private one on one showings.

Imho, as I have said many times before there should be no dispute that the FA had sex with at least 5 different men in the 3 days prior to the party.

THe bottom line on this is that she had sex with at least 5 men and probably 7 men in the 3 days leading up to the LAX party.

This info is much more pertinent to explain the diffuse edema than to whether Precious lied about her chastity.

Subpoenaed to testify in exchange for a promise that his testimony would not be used against him, Richard Emery told the court he first went to the Kittery brothel in the mid-1990s after hearing about it through "word of mouth."

"I wanted to see if it was true what I was hearing about it," he said. "And I found out it was."

The truth Emery was seeking came in the form of hand-to-genital gratification and cost him $150.

Kevin Foley took the stand and told the court he purchased prostitution services at the Danish Health Club over the course of many years, and the women always initiated discussions about sex for cash.

"I wouldn't feel up to asking a woman that," he said. "Most of the times, I would get oral sex, or intercourse, or both. The last few times, it was around $200 for oral and intercourse."

Alternatively, the AV could have been examined by incompetent medical personnel.

IMHO - I know you to be a master of nuance, but Newport's comments are consistent.

THe bottom line on this is that she had sex with at least 5 men and probably 7 men in the 3 days leading up to the LAX party.

Imho, as I have said many times before there should be no dispute that the FA had sex with at least 5 different men in the 3 days prior to the party.

You should be really proud of yourself.

Ha! If I caught it just scimming the post, IMHO was bound to catch it soon enough.

12:37:58 a.m. The accuser is lying on her back on the back stairs. She has a cut on her right foot. She has cuts on her right butt cheek. The stair rail has pink spots on it.

assumptions that her "dates" always include v@ginal sex with a man. According to her they do not. The one date about which we heard the particulars did not include it.

The pink spots are supposed to be nail polish. I don't know about cuts on butt cheeks.

assumptions that her "dates" always include v@ginal sex with a man. According to her they do not. The one date about which we heard the particulars did not include it.

Grown men don't pay money to women to play pat-a-cake.

That's not hedging imho, I just didn't feel like typing the rest, didn't feel it was worth it. I still think it likely.

Newport, you seem to be getting frustrated lately. IMHO's contributions to the discussions have been very valuable, I think, although insanely frustrating me at times. Having gone through all that is known and supposed, having reviewed from any and all possible angles, having required proof and sources for verification, I reach a conclusion at the end of the path knowing that any and all rocks have been turned over, examined, and considered. Thus, I have a high degree of confidence, as well as knowing where the gaps in the critical analysis are.

i will say in my experience that it is virtually impossible to have anal rape without some sort of tearing or ripping. This is one of the main problems in the accuser's story, because if she lied about the anal rape I believe she lied about the vaginal and oral rape.

Also, one last point. We know the accuser had vaginal sex with at least 3 men in the days leading up to the supposed rape because she finally told the prosecuter about them when the semen found in her didn't match any of the players. They got DNA at that point from the three men she had had sex with in the previous few days--or at least the three she admitted to...

No where have we seen a statement from the AV that her "one-on-one" dates did not include vaginal sex, and I think we are entitled to assume that they did. Grown men don't pay money to women to play pat-a-cake.

Thanks for the photo link, SomewhatChunky. Indeed I wouldn't want to swear to what any of it means. However, the dark areas, especially the roundish one on her upper arm, COULD be bruises. A very reasonable possibility. Another very reasonable possibility is shadow.

Somewhat Chunky: One of the best most astute posts I've seen on these threads. I'm surprised IMHO didn't pick up on it, since she is pretty obsessive about this case. Busy chasing the little IMHOrugrats around the couch, I suppose.

Also, one last point. We know the accuser had vaginal sex with at least 3 men in the days leading up to the supposed rape because she finally told the prosecuter about them when the semen found in her didn't match any of the players. They got DNA at that point from the three men she had had sex with in the previous few days--or at least the three she admitted to...

Does your experience include victims who have very regular anal sex? Would that make a difference? Do people who engage in consensual anal sex on a regular basis experience ripping or tearing every time they do so? Forced anal sex does not need to be physically violent.

I do not think that "likely" I think that Precious almost certainly had sex with at least 5 men in the 3 days prior to the party: Johnson, Murchison, the older gentlemen, and 3 other hotel dates described by Johnson.

Somewhat Chunky: One of the best most astute posts I've seen on these threads. I'm surprised IMHO didn't pick up on it, since she is pretty obsessive about this case. Busy chasing the little IMHOrugrats around the couch, I suppose.

No where have we seen a statement from the AV that her "one-on-one" dates did not include vaginal sex, and I think we are entitled to assume that they did. Grown men don't pay money to women to play pat-a-cake.

You will never see me put sayings like "in my humble opinion" in front of anything I write because people reading this already know that.

Are you saying that it is very likely these "dates" included vaginal sex, or that we can treat it as fact? While I would agree vaginal sex was likely (I too would tend to assume it until I hear differently), there certainly other possibilities (oral, fetish play, ect.)

Forced anal sex does not need to be physically violent.

Source? Or are you speaking from experience.

Does your experience include victims who have very regular anal sex? Would that make a difference? Do people who engage in consensual anal sex on a regular basis experience ripping or tearing every time they do so? Forced anal sex does not need to be physically violent.

Two points, IMHO. Even in people who engage in frequent anal sex you would expect to see some signs of trauma in an anal rape, unless the rapist took plenty of time to allow for dilation of the rectum and probably used lubrication. That rarely happens in anal rape and in this case the timeline just doesn't seem to allow it. Even then you would expect to see something unless the woman relaxed and "allowed" the rape to happen. Otherwise the clenching of the sphincter would prevent the dilation.

In terms of the comment about sex one week prior, usually pathologists can tell from the appearance of the sperm how long it has been around. My understanding about the sperm that was found in the acccuser's vagina was that it was approxiamtely 0-3 days old, based on the appearance. After a few days the head separates from the tail (which is why you can only get pregnant if you have sex within 1-3 days of ovulation. Even if it hangs around after that point it is incapable of impregnating the woman, but its source may be identifiable. I can't remember exactly where I heard the discussion on the age of the sperm found, but I believe it was on Nancy Grace.

However, the director of the private laboratory in Burlington that conducted the test said it is impossible to pinpoint when the woman had sex.

"In general, if we test a vaginal swab, there's no way to determine how old the semen is on that swab," said Brian Meehan, laboratory director of DNA Security Inc. Meehan would not discuss the tests conducted in the lacrosse investigation.

As a rule of thumb, live sperm cells can live inside the body for 48 to 72 hours after sex, said Marcia Eisenberg, technical director for Laboratory Corp. of America Holdings, a forensic identity lab. Even after the sperm cells die, it is possible to extract DNA from fluid left in the body.

beenaround

No where have we seen a statement from the AV that her "one-on-one" dates did not include vaginal sex, and I think we are entitled to assume that they did. Grown men don't pay money to women to play pat-a-cake.

Are you saying that it is very likely these "dates" included vaginal sex, or that we can treat it as fact? While I would agree vaginal sex was likely (I too would tend to assume it until I hear differently), there certainly other possibilities (oral, fetish play, ect.).