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500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Lebanon

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:28:33 PM EST
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President Bush says Democracy is coming to the Middle East, while 500,000 answered the Hezbollah call and protested in Lebanon today.

Nearly 500,000 pro-Syrian protesters waved flags and chanted anti-American slogans in a central Beirut square Tuesday, answering a nationwide call by the militant Shiite Muslim Hezbollah group for a demonstration to counter weeks of massive rallies demanding Syrian forces leave Lebanon.

Organizers handed out Lebanese flags and directed the men and women to separate sections of Riad Solh Square. Loudspeakers blared militant songs urging resistance to foreign interference. Demonstrators held up pictures of Syrian President Bashar Assad and signs saying, "Syria & Lebanon brothers forever."

Other placards read: "America is the source of terrorism"; "All our disasters are from America"; "No to American-Zionist intervention; Yes to Lebanese-Syrian brotherhood."

< Alberto Gonzales Defends Rendition of Terror Suspects | Michael Jackson: Accuser's Brother Admits Lying >

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    500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Lebanon | 82 comments (82 topical)
    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:43:13 PM EST
    Syria has no right to be in Lebanon, a sovereign country. Should we not be pushing for freedom or would you rather us keep the status quo?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:43:33 PM EST
    Were John Kerry and Michael Moore at the rally? The left wing's best buddies Hezbollah speak out. Go Hezbollah!!!!! Dedicated to my boy Ian.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:00:00 PM EST
    and we have every right to be in every country we are?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#4)
    by charles on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:00:06 PM EST
    America has no right to be in Iraq, a sovereign country. Oh, well, Bush could never count. Charles

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#5)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Talk about your "good news/bad news" scenarios... Good news: Hezbollah picks the wrong team. Aligning themselves with pro-occupation, anti-self-government forces will tarnish their rep all over the middle east. Bad news: How polarized can this situation get? The peace in Lebanon has been unsteady for a generation. All-out fighting will be awful.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    Did a little background check this morning on relevant background and history, with a few interesting facts coming to light. View story here The Christian Science Monitor Q&A: What is Syria's role in Lebanon?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:09:54 PM EST
    The most relevant facts to the posted story are that:
    Experts say reasons for [Syria]maintaining its grip on Lebanon are economic and political: Syrian guest workers, estimated at 500,000 to 1 million, send home millions of dollars each year.
    And...what do ya know. An estimated 500,000 demonstrators...

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:10:22 PM EST
    The majority has spoken in Lebanon. There has been relative peace in Lebanon since 1990 due to the Syrian presence. We, as invaders and occupiers of Iraq, have no right to tell the Lebanese (or the Syrians for that matter) how to run their own affairs.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:15:34 PM EST
    According to the Defense Department's annual "Base Structure Report" for fiscal year 2003, which itemizes foreign and domestic U.S. military real estate, the Pentagon currently owns or rents 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries and HAS another 6,000 bases in the United States and its territories. Question: Is Lebanon currently being run by Syria? What role do the troops have in Lebanon? If and when Syria pulls out, how will that equate to a free nation? How does that translate into a democracy? Make no mistake about it, we want Syria out because it provides a significant military advantage for Israel. I think Syria should get out of Lebanon, and sooner rather than later. Are the 702 bases we have around the world all in non-sovereign nations?????

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:16:45 PM EST
    Che - Actually, in a country of 5M+ a mob of 500K isn't a majority. I know it's a communist majority, but still. The earlier mob (100K to 150K) was apparently enough to scare the government into collapse. New elections are scheduled, and if they can do as good as job as was done in Afganistan and Iraq, then we'll know the will of the people. (Heck, I'd even take as good a job as in the West Bank or Milwaukee!) -C

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:22:45 PM EST
    I wonder if the terrorist group was able to gather as many good looking women to protest as the pro-democracy groups have been able to do.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:24:02 PM EST
    Oops, meant pro-lebanese self-rule, vice democracy groups.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:29:47 PM EST
    cliff, stop with the commie baiting, it's beneath you. disagree logically, forget the labels. have i ever called you a cracker? or a nazi? stop with the f*cking commie sh*t! peace from the far, Far, FAR left.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:40:47 PM EST
    It seems that those on this site are on Syria's side of occupation because of Bush's policy in Iraq. Let tyranny ring throughout the lands!

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:03:23 PM EST
    It seems that those on this site are on Syria's side of occupation because of Bush's policy in Iraq.
    Obviously not true, what people are pointing out is the obvious hypocrisy. Another question, does this mean that Israel should withdraw from the Golen Heights? There is no doubt that letting people enjoy self-rule is an ideal to work for, doing so in the chaotic haphazard way that Bush follows may lead to bigger problems. Note that Hezbolah is a Shiite organization. So the rise of the Shiite Crescent from Iran to SA becomes a more likely possibility by the day. This is not a good outcome for the US or our friends in SA. The more likely outcome is increased instability and internal fighting for years to come. Given the situation the US would prefer instability to the unification of Shia power in the ME. The instability also benefits Israel since all the infighting will probably reduce attacks on them.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:06:18 PM EST
    occupation does not work. The Lebanese have had a Parliamentry system for a number of years, let's hope they will now govern with more sovereignty and the Syrian presence will diminish. but as Che points out it is tough for the US to critize any other nations occupation at this point, yet another reason against acting almost entirely alone in Iraq.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    In 2000, did not the Lebanese elect Hariri? This is the problem, the current administration takes this story and makes it about them. "Free and fair elections", "spread democracy", "learn from Iraq" etc. DATE=9/6/2000 TYPE=BACKGROUND REPORT TITLE=LEBANON POLITICS NUMBER=5-46970 BYLINE=SCOTT BOBB DATELINE=BEIRUT CONTENT= VOICED AT: INTRO: Lebanon's elections have produced a major victory for former Prime Minister Rafiq al-Hariri. Results of the second round of voting this week indicate Hariri supporters will control one-third of the seats in the next Parliament. Mr. Hariri is expected to return to government leadership. His relations with President Emile Lahoud and the Syrian government have often been strained, and many observers predict Lebanese politics are about to enter a stormy period. Correspondent Scott Bobb has been covering the elections in Beirut. TEXT: Many Lebanese recall that Mr. Hariri declined the post of prime minister two-years ago, when President Lahoud was elected. And during the recent campaign, Mr. Hariri came under personal attack from government-owned news media. Moreover, it is widely believed that the two leaders, who both have strong personalities, do not get along. As a result, there are worries here of a clash between Mr. Hariri, one of Lebanon's wealthiest businessmen, and President Lahoud, a former armed-forces commander who is seen as close to the government of Syria. Syria sent 30-thousand troops into this country to help end years of civil war. Ten-years later, it continues to play an influential role in Lebanese politics. Mr. Hariri has sought to dispel the worries and counter the charges. Following the election, he praised Syria's role in Lebanon. /// HARIRI ACT /// The Syrians are playing a positive role in Lebanon, as they used to play. And now, more and more they are playing a positive role and they will support Lebanon in anything Lebanon needs.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:14:46 PM EST
    Causing the tsunami using HAARP technology? Please explain to me why only the wingnut psuedointellectual poseurs are delusion.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:17:26 PM EST
    Read the facts mate...they're there

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#21)
    by cp on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:20:47 PM EST
    i see this as possibly a sign of desperation by hezbollah. without their syrian patrons, i suspect that financial and moral support for the organization will dwindle; the average lebanese has little in common with militant islam. for that matter, hezbollah is/was merely a tool for assad. you think he really, in his heart o' hearts, wants them running around loose? i doubt it. they serve a purpose for him, they helped legitimize the syrian occupation, nothing more. commies? oh puh-lease! how passe'. geez, the communists don't even do communism any more, it's too boring. they just do good old fashioned dictatorship. anybody can play, you don't need an "ideology", just enough guns to take over and cow the people into submission. good grief, where the heck have you been for the past 15 years? in a cave?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:20:50 PM EST
    Stop the bickering. Bush can't get to osama so this this his solution

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:25:17 PM EST
    How on earth can Americans re-elect a president who promises to deliver the most wanted terrorist in the world, then fails miserably, and then embarks on a crusade against Islamic countries? S ohow come he doesn't do more for the Kashmir sitiation sucker?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 03:30:31 PM EST
    Kashmir, is there oil there. if yes, give'em time, if no, ref: dafur/etc.,etc.,etc.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#25)
    by john horse on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 03:30:38 PM EST
    Cliff, Get your facts straight. The anti-Syrian demonstration did not draw 100,000 to 150,000 but only about 70,000 (per the communist USA Today).

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 04:09:42 PM EST
    Mob / n [L mobile vulgus vacillating crowd] 1:masses, rabble 2:a disorderly crowd 3:a criminal gang. Mirriam Webster Whatever terminology suits you. I think you suck at it.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 04:43:19 PM EST
    It's wrong for the US to interfere. Lebanon invited Syria in, and can sort getting Syria out, if the people so choose. It's good to see Lebanese people in the streets protesting for what they want, not shooting at each other. For Bush to stick his nose in for political gain...for shame.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#28)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 05:57:42 PM EST
    mfox (waaay back up there!), Thanks for the link to the Christian Science Monitor Q&A. They do those often and they're good. Link recommended to all who haven't taken the time.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#29)
    by John Mann on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 07:24:25 PM EST
    observer wondered: "How on earth can Americans re-elect a president who promises to deliver the most wanted terrorist in the world, then fails miserably, and then embarks on a crusade against Islamic countries?" Good question, and there's a simple answer to it: a majority of Americans believe - openly or secretly - that they are intrinsically "better" than everyone else in the world. President Bush and his puppeteers understand this jingoism and xenophobia very well, and even the incoherent cowpoke himself has managed to grasp this concept and apply it well enough to be reelected. The mandate the American people so overwhelmingly handed him (check the electoral map if you don't believe this) has left the deluded and shortsighted fool with the notion that he is politically invincible and can continue to instruct the rest of the countries of the world in how to conduct their affairs. Hope this helps.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    Che - Actually, in a country of 5M+ a mob of 500K isn't a majority. I know it's a communist majority, but still. That's 10% of the country showing up to a protest. When was the last time in the "democracy" of America that 27 million people showed up at a protest? The answer seems simple - arrange a referendum.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 09:03:37 PM EST
    John Mann sounds like a bitter asshat. Still smarting from the ass-kicking W. delivered to you and your loser hippie comrades last November, are ya? Good. Remember, there's a simple reason your side lost: there are less of you than there are of us. And until there are more of you than there are of us, you can't run things. Tee hee hee. Suffer bee-yotch!

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 10:07:11 PM EST
    Hizbollah does not want Syria out of Lebanon because this might encourage peace. The group's chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah warned that Syria's pullout under intense global pressure could spell chaos for Lebanon and push it toward peace with Israel. Source

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#33)
    by John Mann on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    Loinks, you have no idea what "side" I'm on. If you think for a second that it makes the slightest bit of difference to me which of the two pinheads - Bush or Kerry - occupies the White House, you're even more stupid than your prosaic little note makes you appear. PS: what kind of a name is Loinks, anyway?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 03:07:35 AM EST
    Kdog: It's good to see Lebanese people in the streets protesting for what they want, not shooting at each other. Yep. That big ole bomb that killed the former PM and started this current Lebanese situtation must have been a form of street protest.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:19:52 AM EST
    Here's a couple of points to remember. Lebanon has had elections for over a decade now and has been relatively peaceful. If you say those elections are meaningless because they were held under occupation that would mean that the Iraq elections are also meaningless for the same reason. The US asked the Syrians to enter Lebanon in 1976. The most likely outcome of a rapid withdrawl of Syrian forces would be chaos and violence. The Druze leader Jumblatt, who had his visa revoked in Nov. for wishing Wolfowitz had been killed in Iraq, now suddenly is championing Bush simply because if the Syrians leave it puts Jumblatt back in buisness. if your concern was the welefare of the lebanonese people as well as democracy wouldn't you want Syria to withdraw in a way that did not compromise the stability of the country? On the other hand if your policy consists mainly of bullying countries you don't like, consequence be damned, what would you do?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 06:32:41 AM EST
    I was referring to the lack of violence after the assasination Wile. Obviously.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 07:28:14 AM EST
    "Tee hee hee. Suffer bee-yotch!" Yes. Bush represents people like you.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 08:04:18 AM EST
    Loinks, were you also giddy with glee upon learning of the torture at Abu Ghraib, or is it only your perception of the suffering of your fellow Americans that don't think just like you that fills you with joy?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 08:47:20 AM EST
    kdog - So If I invite someone for tea, and they stay for 20 years, that's okay? et al - On another thread many of you are in a dither over the appointmemt of Bolton, and over various comments that we think the UN is worthless. UN Res 1559 demanding that Syria leave Lebabnnon has been out... what 20 years or more? And Syria is still there. Now tell me what the UN has done to get Syria out, and how important the UN is. SD - Your arguments always assume that we have evil intent, that we are the equivalent of the world's hugger muggers. This is shown in your agreement with OBL that, "the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical." In this quote, you also say, "I think our actions in Iraq have proven him correct." So your position in Lebannon is just an extension of your position in Iraq. To bolster your claim in Iraq you have claimed time and again that there was no connections with terrorists. This is despite Saddam's comments, his contributions to suicide bomber's families, various terrorists in Iraq receiving medical care, the 9/11 report mentioning contact, and a large heaping of common sense. However, and this is an extremely imoportnt point, there is no doubt about Syria's relationship with Hizbollah, and yet you are against a policy that will weaken Syria, and Hizbolla. Wow. Your image is now well defined.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 08:54:23 AM EST
    PPJ has a point here. I read this thread and it sounds as if self-goverance is a bad thing for the Lebanese people. Does Bush deserve credit for this? I mind my mind no, but Syria leaving Lebanon is a welcomed move and should be embraced by the international community.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 08:59:24 AM EST
    please excuse typo in 9:54 post. It should read "in my mind" not "I mind my mind." my apologies.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 09:00:56 AM EST
    I feel sorry for liberals, I really do. In order to maintain you Bush bashing, you are forced to support,in no partiular order: the Taliban; Saddam Hussein (your hero) the Syrian government the Iranian government and many other (insert oppressive governement here) abusrd government Do you ever stop and say to yourself, what have I become. I root for the worst governments in the world, I hate the US, and it's all because my guy didn't win the presidency. To sum up, I refer you to the following: “When Good News Strikes” Glum liberals’ try coping with a changing world. If the world that Democrats have been living in lately were made into a reality disaster show, it would be called “When Good News Strikes.” One of the inconveniences of political debate is that occasionally reality intrudes to invalidate a given position no matter how much its partisans want to believe it. This is what has been happening recently to the argument that the invasion of Iraq produced an irrecoverable mess. Although surely setbacks still await us in Iraq and the Middle East, stunning headlines from the region have left many liberals perversely glum about upbeat news. Schadenfreude has faded into its happiness-hating opposite, gluckschmerz. Liberal journalist Kurt Andersen has written in New York magazine of the guilty “pleasure liberals took in bad news from Iraq, which seemed sure to hurt the administration.” According to Andersen, the successful Iraqi elections changed the mood. For Bush critics, this inspiring event was “unexpectedly unsettling,” since they so “hat[ed] the idea of a victory presided over by the Bush team.” The legendary liberal editor Charlie Peters confessed to his own attack of gluckschmerz: “New York Post columnist John Podhoretz asked liberals: ‘Did you momentarily feel a rush of disappointment [at the news of the Jan. 30 Iraq election] because you knew, you just knew, that this was going to redound to the credit of George W. Bush?’ I plead guilty …” On his show the other night, comedian Jon Stewart — half-jokingly — expressed a feeling of dread at the changes in the Middle East and the credit President Bush will get for them. “Oh my God!” he said. “He’s gonna be a great — pretty soon, Republicans are gonna be like, ‘Reagan was nothing compared to this guy.’ Like, my kid’s gonna go to a high school named after him, I just know it.” Stewart is badly in need of the consolation of a yet-to-be-written pop theological tract, “When Good Things Happen to Bad Presidents.” The Democratic foreign-policy expert who was Stewart’s guest that night, Nancy Soderberg, tried to comfort him, pointing out that the budding democratic revolution in the Middle East still might fail: “There’s always hope that this might not work.” There is historical precedent for that, of course. Liberal revolutions failed in Europe in 1848 and Eastern Europe in 1968. What is an entirely new phenomenon is liberals calling such reverses for human freedom — half-jokingly or not — occasions for “hope.” Soderberg added: “There’s still Iran and North Korea, don’t forget. There’s hope.” The way Bogart and Bergman “will always have Paris,” liberals now tell themselves they “will always have Iran and North Korea.” No matter the good news anywhere else, these nuke-hungry rogue states will provide grounds for bad-mouthing Bush foreign policy. But these two intractable problems won’t seriously detract from Bush’s world-changing accomplishment should he succeed in transforming the Middle East. Some liberals are reluctantly giving him his due. The New York Times surveyed the fresh air sweeping the region and concluded, “The Bush administration is entitled to claim a healthy share of the credit.” Liberal commentator Daniel Schorr remarked: “During the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, President Bush said that ‘a liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region.’ He may have had it right.” Has the administration gotten a few fortunate breaks in the Middle East lately? Well, yes. Asked how he seemed to make so many lucky saves, the great Montreal Canadien goalie Ken Dryden explained that it was his job to be in the right position to get lucky. By toppling Saddam Hussein and insisting on elections in Iraq, while emphasizing the power of freedom, Bush has put the United States in the right position to encourage and take advantage of democratic irruptions in the region. And so we have created the conditions for being pleasantly surprised by the positive drift of events in the Middle East, or unpleasantly surprised — depending on your politics.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 09:21:02 AM EST
    MB - Good point on the Prague Spring in '68. Difference is, there is now no over riding force, as the Soviets were, against change. In fact, it is the opposite. The real question is, does Assad think he can make Bush back down, or will he remember Saddam in his hole in the ground?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 09:22:16 AM EST
    Soccerdad, If you say those elections are meaningless because they were held under occupation that would mean that the Iraq elections are also meaningless for the same reason. Your 'Et Tu Quoque' arguement would be valid, if and only if Siria would be an honest broker in the stability of the Middle East. As direct sponsor of Hizbolah in the Bekáa Valley, and proxy intermediary of the Mad Mullahs in Iran it does nothing but destabililze the region as a whole.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 09:23:54 AM EST
    Soccerdad, If you say those elections are meaningless because they were held under occupation that would mean that the Iraq elections are also meaningless for the same reason. Your 'Et Tu Quoque' arguement would be valid, if and only if Siria would be an honest broker in the stability of the Middle East. As direct sponsor of Hizbolah in the Bekáa Valley, and proxy intermediary of the Mad Mullahs in Iran it does nothing but destabililze the region as a whole. Surely you are not equating the Baathist Regime in Siria to the US, or are you?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 10:39:34 AM EST
    So If I invite someone for tea, and they stay for 20 years, that's okay?
    C'mon Jim...Here is a more apt anaolgy. You invite someone for tea, your nosy neighbor starts banging on the door and tells your guests they have to leave. All I'm saying is it is not clear to me that Lebanon wants Syria to leave. Whatever the democratically elected gov't of Lebanon decides is fine with me. I'm sick of the US meddling in other countries affairs.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 10:54:29 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, The 2000 Elections were setup in such a way as to assure that Damascus' canditades were the only winners. This was done by: 1)Gerrymandering Districs, 2)Manipulating Slates of Candidates, all of which were reviewed and preaproved in Damascus, 3)By allowing Druze and other sympathizing group to cast absentee ballots, while sidelining Meronites refugees out of a vote, 4)Intimidating voters at polling stations, requiring the review of open ballots prior to being cast, 5)Ballot Box stuffing, etc. Thus ensuring a peaceably puppet regime in Beirut. Syria's meddling in Lebanese politics cannot be given equal standing to the US's intervention in Irak. To equate both countries as equally ambivalente is naďve at best, or duplicitous at worse.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 11:39:07 AM EST
    PPJ - you are absolutely full of crap. Back up your alegations. Again you can't deal with the facts so your only recorse is character assassination. Your image has been well established here for a long time. Nothing I said can be construded as supporting either Syria or Hezbuloh. The point is about how you go about it. Just pulling out may lead to chaos and civial war with Hezbulloh ending up stronger. It would be nice in decided what your goals are to choose a strategy that doesnt almost guarantee further desabalization of the ME.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 11:44:10 AM EST
    Boquisucio Can you provide links to your claims, so I can read more Also note that the US rigged elections and had an attempted assassination fail in Lebanon in the 50's. I would put more importance in your claims if the US actually cared about democratic elections. Note many of the things you claim for the Lebanon elections have also been raised about the Iraq elections.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 11:49:14 AM EST
    Surely you are not equating the Baathist Regime in Siria to the US, or are you?
    Of course not but thanks for the backhanded insult. It is obvious to anyone with a pulse that the 2 governments are different, but your implication that the US is an honest broker in Iraq is ludicrous at best. So my comment about elections under occupation stands. The US did a lot of manipulation first with the TAL and later more directlly in trying to obtain a result they could live with.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 12:28:01 PM EST
    Soccerdad, Here we go again: In your 'Et Tu Quoque' arguement you were implying that if we did it in Iraq, why can't the Syrians do so the same? To prop-up that arguement you have to take as a foundation (an Archetype you know), that both countries Syria and the US have the same moral weight. That the intentions of both countries are Equal - Ambivalent (as in Same Value). Both countries Lebanon and Iraq are occupied, but the occupying contries do not have the same ambivalence. The US and Syria operate very different in their respective occupied countries. Syria's objectives are twofold: a) to castrate Lebanon, by playing one faction over another, but ensuring that none will be dominant, yet pliant to Damascus. c) Create a thorn on Israel's North Flank, by creating a haven in the Bekáa Valey for the miscreants of International Terrorism. The US's objectives couldn't be more different. We are in Irak to create a stable democracy, after four decades of Baathist Tyranny. With the drastical differences in the valuation of both countries Syria, and the US, your 'Et Tu Quoque' arguement falls apart. by the way you can read at your leasure: Various Sources on the Matter

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 12:42:06 PM EST
    Bosq: Lebanese wanted Hariri to win. Whether or not there were impropritieties in the election is not up for debate, I believe there were. I also believe that the Lebanese people felt Hariri was their best candidate to stand up against Syria. Funny how you historians forget that the US sanctioned syria's involvement 20 years ago. Funny how you also speak of puppet regimes and military intervention when the US is the only country in the world with bases in some 100+ countries. If the Lebanese want them out and our participation along with the EU and whoever else from the UN wants to help then great. I am all for it. But lets stop the pandering and chest thumping about our influence. Arafat died. The Ukraine people spoke. Hariri was assassinated. The advances of the aforementioned nations are a direct result of THEIR people screaming for representation that they want not our middle east policy.......

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 12:51:27 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, I guess that our positions are not too far apart from each other. I fully agree with your assertion on Minister Hariri. Likewise, it is up to the Lebanese themselves to sort things out and call/not-call for UN intervention in their land.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 12:56:15 PM EST
    Bosq: Your missive regarding roles and subsequent application of powers or influence are subject to interpretation e.g. "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Perhaps you missed my earlier post supporting the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon and surmised based on the latter post that I felt Syrias presence in Lebanon was a positive. I know for certain that Hariri represented the best interests of the lebanese of the candidates slated and was elected by the Lebanese people. I know that the US would prefer to have Chalabi or one of their puppets installed in Iraq and allowed for hundreds of candidates to be on the ballot to bleed the vote amongst local candidates and tip the scales for the US "desirable" candidates. Unfortunately, it did not pan out and Iraq will be looking at an Islamic constitution soon. How did our democracy spreading work in Iraq last time around? Seems to me that Hussein did not fare so well. If you care to discuss duplicity I am all ears. Perhaps we should start with the assessment of threat Saddam and his so called armed forces presented to the American Public. Perhaps if you looked at the Carnegie Endowment for Peace dated 10-11-02, you might be willing to accept that this administration was duplicitous AT BEST in our lead up to war. http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/templates/article.asp?NewsID=3809

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Bosq: I agree with your take on the UN as well, if they ask for help the UN should provide it (which of course means that we will assume the lions share of the burden).

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:17:34 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, Sorry; missed your earlier post. Again I agree 85% in your assertion on Minister Hariri. We may quibble on details, but I would expound that what got Minister Hariri elected in the first place was that he began as a manservant of Damascus. What got him killed, was that he bit the hand that fed him. Hope that you don't misunderstand this last statement. As you said, the Lebanese wanted him, because he saw that Syrian occupation was negative to his country. Once he turned on his masters, he got on Damascus's hit-list. How can some on this blog defend Syria after this, is beyond me. On regards to Iraq: Don't know about Chalabi after his double-cross, but would agree that the US would also prefer to have a lap dog of their own. However, what separates us from anyone else in the neighborhood, is that we have the maturity enough to let the Irakis hash it out on their own. Thus fostering true democaracy in the country. On your comment about Hussein: I'm scratching my head a bit. Didn't he come to power in the 70's, upon whacking his own uncle? How can this be construed as democracy?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    The Hussein remark was meant with respect to our providing arms and cbw to them during the Iran conflict. The Reagan administration sold the american people that our assistance in Iraq would lead to a more stable and free Iraq which of course would mean a safer america and "democratic" middle east. Of course our support accomplished neither. But your point is taken as my statement was poorly written at best. The State Department said: "Our initial assessment is that meeting marked a positive milestone in development of US-Iraqi relations and will prove to be of wider benefit to US posture in the region."

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:46:31 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, Ah, how the world turns. 20 years ago the Evil ones were the Crazy Mullahs in Persia. Oh, I forget. They are in the Pre-wash Cycle.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:49:03 PM EST
    The US's objectives couldn't be more different. We are in Irak to create a stable democracy, after four decades of Baathist Tyranny.
    that is the largest err of you on the right, your told this, you believe it, repeat it, live it, while the majority of information and consequences coming out of iraq reveal a very different more sinister agenda. there was no exit strategy because the US never planned to exit, got it, believe it, repeat it, live it, all additional reasons and causes are mere excuses and/or misdirection, and the people on the right are the only ones buying into it. we will be in iraq a long, long, time even after we leave afganistan (no oil/resources) to their own devices.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:49:07 PM EST
    I guess there is some comfort in having our involvement in the open so to speak.....

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 01:55:21 PM EST
    aNOn_n, Please spare me the rut-gut bile, and learn to be more cogent in your words.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 02:17:13 PM EST
    Here we go again: In your 'Et Tu Quoque' arguement you were implying that if we did it in Iraq, why can't the Syrians do so the same? To prop-up that arguement you have to take as a foundation (an Archetype you know), that both countries Syria and the US have the same moral weight.
    Here we go again, the right wing always likes to invoke the "moral equivalency" argument. The basis of this argument is always "our intentions are better therefore we are morally superior". This "superiority" is then used to justify whatever actiion is under discussion. This argument has been used to bludgeon many a poster here, but remains at best misleading and most of the time outright irrelevant. What the US's "intentions" were are irrelevant. What is relevant was: were the people of Iraq able to partake in open and free elections without interference from the US. The simple answer is no, and you can go all the way back to the TAL to understand why and the marginalization of the Sunnis is another prime example. The US may or may not really intend to bring democracy to Iraq, but the mere swaying of the process makes the situation similar to that in Syria. I would argue that they are similar at some high level but different in many details. However, arguing about who is "more moral" is irrelevant and in no way justifes many of the actions the US has taken. This is just like the argument that Saddam was worse so we can ignore the torture committed by the US. This argument also depends on the assumption that the US intentions are all that matter, even if they don't coincide with what the Iraqis want. Of course we know best!! Give me a break.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 03:04:58 PM EST
    Soccerdad, To the contrary, the ones always invoking ambivalence is your side of the aisle. If I recall, it was you attempting to validate Syria's intervention in Lebanon by questioning the US's involvement in Irak. You have your thread of thoughts all tangled-up. On: were the people of Iraq able to partake in open and free elections without interference from the US. The simple answer is no, It was the Sunnis who boycotted the political process. If they did not want to come to the table, and now find themselves empty handed, they have only themselves to blame.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 03:23:32 PM EST
    All he pointed out was the hypocrisy of your position. If you cant fathom that,well.. intellectually dishonest, deliberatly obtuse,chronic parrot of the party line,check one. Btw,"true democracy" would preclude having a few million at your disposal in order to have any chance of being elected. Spare us the "democracy" jive, youre exporting Tammany Hall.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#65)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 03:28:36 PM EST
    If I recall, it was you attempting to validate Syria's intervention in Lebanon by questioning the US's involvement in Irak
    Simply not true. Show me where I did so. what jondee said!!!!

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 03:33:37 PM EST
    ..down a gun barrel.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:00:58 PM EST
    Soccerdad, If you say those elections are meaningless because they were held under occupation that would mean that the Iraq elections are also meaningless for the same reason. By taking down the validity of the Iraki elections you wish to corner those who defend it, to accept your spurious position that the Lebanese elections were just as valid. Therefore, if the Lebanese elections were just as valid, a reasoned mind must conclude that the Syrians are a Godsend to Lebanon. Do I need you to take you to the woodshed again?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:35:59 PM EST
    B - "God send". Is this a figure of speech or are you one of those that believes that Bush& co. are annointed? Just be careful you dont take him up to Mount Moriah.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:46:01 PM EST
    jondee, A figure of speech, with the purpose of walking him and any reader to his purpose (whether conscious or unscoucious) for that statement, and to its logical terminus.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:48:35 PM EST
    I'm just wondering why Syria is only going to pull back to the Bekaa valley. I'm wondering even more why many on this thread think that is just fine by them. Or is there something in the Bekaa Valley that the Ba'athists in Damascus don't want the world to find. Perhaps those tanker trucks that were spotted by satelite going there from Iraq before the war had something in them that the US didn't find in Iraq. And perhaps that is why many on this site are siding with the Fascists in Syria because it will be the end of the WMD mystery.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 04:52:44 PM EST
    jimcee, The Bekaa is whence Hezbollah operates. Once they pull back, the Terrorist miscreants are left nekkid, and exposed to Israel's wrath. Read my post above on Syria's objectives in Lebanon

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    Jimcee - Im marking your post for future reference,when I suspect you'll be in no position to defend it.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#73)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 05:15:31 PM EST
    Still laughing about "the WMD mystery"..tell me jimcee how many Lebanonese did the Syrian "fascists" kill and maim when they went in?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 05:33:24 PM EST
    Israel dosnt mind terrorists,they made one..maybe two Prime Minister. Other than that,theyre eternally purer than pure - holy martyrs for all time. With dog-on- thier-side.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 05:41:34 PM EST
    jondee, What was the last time that a Zephardic Suicide Bomber gutted a bus in Ramalah?

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 05:50:29 PM EST
    Or shot missiles into an apartment building? Of course the Israelis dont "mean" to kill innocents, only the otherside does that.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#77)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 06:00:05 PM EST
    B, stop with the relative morality you are embasrassing yourself to all but the other wingers, then again maybe you don't care. My position is clear, occupation = invalid elections, period no exceptions Take me to the woodshed, in your pathetic little dreams. ROTFLMAO

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 09, 2005 at 06:23:15 PM EST
    Soccerdad, My appologies for clanging your preconceptions with my bell or reasoning. I know that it is unsettling when your constructs get reordered.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 10, 2005 at 05:59:34 AM EST
    Bosq: Israel does not have to use suicide bombers, they have a well armed defense thanks to the US. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would imagine Israelis would be strapping c-4 to their nads also.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 10, 2005 at 08:12:20 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, That's where I would quibble with you. There is no culture of death in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The Jihadist today just like the Kamikazee of yore looked forward more to death than to life. Such outlook is not in our core values.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 10, 2005 at 09:39:06 AM EST
    Classic! Where's Ward Churchill when you need him? Lets all march and chant the new Liberal mantra: "Es ist Zeit zu sauberen. Wir müssen die Juden ausrotten."

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:45:43 PM EST
    Pfft. No "culture of death." Aside from wars coming out of that matrix to numerous to mention, torture,inquisitions,and those Psalms with sentiments like:"may the heads of thier little ones be dashed upon the rocks." Culture of death. Somebodys been main-lining that neocon Kool Aid.

    Re: 500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Leba (none / 0) (#83)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:46:21 PM EST
    Pfft. No "culture of death." Aside from wars coming out of that matrix to numerous to mention, torture,inquisitions,and those Psalms with sentiments like:"may the heads of thier little ones be dashed upon the rocks." Culture of death - have a little more neo-con kool aid maybe your head will clear.

    500,000 Answer Hezbollah Call, Protest in Lebanon | 82 comments (82 topical)