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87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned Molestation

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:10:01 PM EST
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The 2003 Protect Act, aimed at prosecuting tourists from the U.S. who travel abroad to commit sex offenses against children, saw its first sentence imposedMonday:

An 87-year-old man convicted of attempting to travel to the Philippines to molest young girls was sentenced Monday to 20 years in prison under a 2003 federal law aimed at fighting so-called sex tourism.

John W. Seljan was the first person to be convicted at trial of violating the Protect Act, which made it easier for U.S. authorities to prosecute people for overseas sex crimes, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ...

Seljan sat in a wheelchair and used headphones to listen to the proceedings when he was convicted by a judge during a non-jury trial in November.

A half-way house or home arrest wouldn't have been been sufficient for this widower, grandfather and former country western singer? Do you feel safer? How much will taxpayers pay for his medical care in prison?

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    87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned Molestation | 62 comments (62 topical)
    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:30:31 PM EST
    Do you feel safer?
    I feel safer and so do the worlds children.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:38:21 PM EST
    I would have settled for a visit by one of the Chinese Death Vans. I could never be a police officer because I would probably execute the first person i knew sexually molested a child at arrest. Of course, even our worst criminals wouldn't hang out with this guy long - maybe just put him in the main population for a couple of days Excuse me but I am the father of a 12 year old girl, and have a sister whose life was affected forever by our stepfather - I have no sympathy whatsoever for this fool

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:55:51 AM EST
    So, can we expect Neil Bush to be the next one tried on this charge? Or don't underage Thai prostitutes count?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:02:37 AM EST
    I don't feel safer, but I feel safer for my kids. I have a hunch we would have paid for his medical care if he was not in prison.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:35:20 AM EST
    Yes, I do.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#6)
    by Tim on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:44:35 AM EST
    You've got to be kidding. This guy provides incentive to sexually enslave children in other countries and we're supposed to put him under house arrest because he's old, has grandchildren and sang country western tunes? Major miscalculation on your part.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#7)
    by Tim on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:47:17 AM EST
    One more thought: If he's healthy enough to travel to the Philippines and get it on, he's healthy enough to sit his butt in jail.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:04:02 AM EST
    With all the non-violent people sitting in jail who shouldn't be, I can't concern myself with the plight of a pedophile. Lock him and his ilk up and release the drug offenders.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#9)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:06:02 AM EST
    “… been sufficient for this widower, grandfather and former country western singer?” How endearing; I’m all turned around about this one now. I’m pleased with the balance of the comments so far. Myself; I can’t imagine what is sufficient for a sexual predator of children, but it is nothing short of severe and cruel.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:07:25 AM EST
    More about message than anything else. News release that says they will lock up an 87 year old man in a wheelchair send a clear message of zero tolerance, I cannot argue with the sentence. And of course, I am with KDOG that there are too many non violent offenders in prison/jail and I would rather focus my efforts at protest and dissent fighting for them as opposed to a pedophile.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:39:56 AM EST
    f__k'em, put'em in prison, general population, life has a way of balancing itself. otoh: could it be a ruse by this individual to secure state provided medical care? i've heard of wilder schemes.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:59:32 AM EST
    So, can we expect Neil Bush to be the next one tried on this charge?
    Absolutely, and Micheal Jackson if he is guilty can share his cell. But how does every conversation in this blog end up with the Bush family? Whatcha all going to do when they're gone. I understand though - it was hard to do without Nixon at one time.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:00:41 AM EST
    TL, you should be ashamed of your pedophile protecting, liberal ass for even suggesting that this guy should get a break. My only consolation is that even your very own liberal readership is also pointing out your clear stupidity.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:01:46 AM EST
    Why would putting him in a halfway house or home arrest make ANYONE feel safer? If he was healthy enough to consider traveling to molest children, what makes you think he couldn't or wouldn't hunt for children to molest within the vicinity of wherever he was serving his time?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:14:46 AM EST
    Also TL, this is exactly why moderates and conservatives believe you and liberals like you should have nothing whatsoever to do with the justice system in this nation. Simply put, because you cant be trusted. It's not good enough that you put forth your arguments that non violent offenders not be incarcerated but rehabilitated, it's not good enough that you lobby to have mandatory sentences removed from justice, it's not good enough that you argue against the 3 strikes laws.......(Now your true colors begin to show through) you want duly processed and convicted, violent offenders, child rapists and molesters to be free from incarceration. This is exactly why Rush Limbaugh is so popular, because the masses cant wait to hear him call you the left wing wacko that you truly are. This is exactly why you shouldn't be trusted to come with in a hundred yards of our justice system.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:15:49 AM EST
    It's the liberal 'give em' a break' attitude that lets these animals run the streets. Look at this guy in Fla. that killed that little girl last week. He had been arrested 20 something times? Why is this guy out??????

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:27:56 AM EST
    Wow, the "lock everybody up forever" crowd is foaming on this one. I think I'm as liberal as they come, and I can think of only 2 crimes where the offender deserves life in prison...pedophiles/child molesters and pre-meditated murderers.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:02:45 AM EST
    I wonder what 20 years of TREATMENT would do to him? I'm convinced that the brain is just another organ in the body that is susceptible to dysfunction. I think more so in our f***ed up society than many other social systems. But the "foamers" that Kdog refers to will never get it that psychiatric problems are still clinical entities. When people get TB we ISOLATE THEM from others so we reduce the secondary effects on the cmmunity. Why do you people have to insist on injecting so much venom into this issue? We should be building (secure) hospitals and clinics, not prisons. DEVO!!!!

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:06:24 AM EST
    I'm going to play Devil's advocate on this one and throw out a few ideas that have been on my mind. Rabid frothers, I'd appreciate responses that don't extrapolate to liberals in general, etc. and actually hear some arguments for my points. First, is the point of incarceration to punish the offender "eye for an eye style" or to protect society from future crimes happening. If the first, then pedophiles should be incarcerated in a setting where they will surely experience prison rape, with all it's accompanying health problems and psychological trauma. Of course, as these are most likely the grown up versions of children who weren't protected from molestation, this will be more of the same for them with resulting more of the same responses (i.e. pedophilia). If the latter, then if we could be sure that a pedophile wouldn't re-commit their offenses, then we wouldn't care if they re-integrated with society. As a proponent of the latter, I don't see how deprivation of freedom as punishment could ever rehab a child molester. I had thought that treatment wasn't working but recently heard that the recidivism rate of sex offenders in "good" programs is less than 10%. In this case, why can't we put pedophiles in mental health treatment facilities with intensive therapy? The answer is because these folks are societal deviants whom we would have shunned and probably killed on-sight as unwanted aberrations of society. We enjoy the prospect of their suffering, torture and eventual demise. They are not people, but animals with no feelings. I have to say, also, that if someone molested my son, I would definitely be gunning for them. My one observation that I would like to put out there is the fact that there are different "levels" if you will of pedophilia. One kind of pedophile is the most feared - those that snatch our children, assault and kill them. This person should be considered as vile and reprehensible as a serial killer. There is another dangerous but less sensational type of pedophile. This is the guy who cannot control his unhealthy impulses towards children. The guy who is married and lives a fairly normal life, sometimes even being a pillar of society or achieving fame and fortune outside of their issue. The neighbor who befriends, the extra-loving stepdad, the priest or scout troop leader who strive for public acceptance to cover up their shame and guilt. As we speak thousands of otherwise productive members of society are engaging in inappropriate sexual actions with minors. If we viewed the extent of this sickness in our society we would be shocked and overwhelmed at who, where and why. Should these people really be locked up and the key tossed. Isn't our real goal to protect children, or is it more fun, more satisfying to vilify? If a guy was ashamed and sorry, admitted guilt and the desire for help, is jail really the best place? Or are we so enamoured of the soundbite fix that we don't care enough beyond feeling justified in our common bloodlust? One positive that could come out of a more nuanced approach to treating pedophelia is that anyone who may feel ashamed and want help and may be hurting children as we speak is highly unlikely to step forward, admit their folly and ask for help.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#20)
    by veloer on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:08:05 AM EST
    " How much will taxpayers pay for his medical care in prison?" What makes you think he will get medicial care in prison?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:08:30 AM EST
    "planning to" have sex? Let he who pauses at the Olsen Twins website a moment too long cast the first stone.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:12:07 AM EST
    I'm a far-left liberal, and I have no sympathy for this man. Harsh sentences for pedophilia are just fine with me. Release the nonviolent drug offenders, if there's a money problem.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:18:21 AM EST
    (above, cont.) If we were less rabid in our response, emphasising that treatment helps and urging men with inappropriate urges to seek medical/psychiatric help, etc., wouldn't we be making more children more safe in the long run?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:18:39 AM EST
    WE have a real Connundrum here The more fierce we become towards Pedefiles the more victims of these deviants will die. It is akin to a hostage situation the more desperate the perpurtrator feels the less likely he will let his hostages go. These nonhumans know their chance for escape is to disappear the main witness to their crime, their victim.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:24:05 AM EST
    Question Have they ever identified any serial killer pedifiles. If these characters were considered Serial pedifiles would Law inforcement behave differently?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:28:15 AM EST
    Good point Billy. "Planning to" sounds eerily like thought crime. My post above stands when the accused actually goes through with it. mfox....I'm not proud to say it's probably a mixture of both for me, I want to protect children and I want to see pedophiles suffer. Not very pc of me, but pedophiles are the abosolute worst society has to offer. I have no kids, but I have several nieces and nephews I adore. Some mook lays a hand on 'em, I guarantee they never make it to see a courtroom. Sometimes, street justice is the best kind. Pedophilia is one of those times. I hope I don't have to turn in my "liberal club" card.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:30:41 AM EST
    The first time my daughter ran to me when I got home screaming "DADDY" I wondered how someone could damage that kind of deep love and innocence. The truth is that when it comes to the sexual crimes - rape, pedophilia - there has been no real success with psychiatric treatment. I have some theories about this that don't matter - but what do we do with these predators (and that is what they are) until mental health professionals can unlock this mystery. There are crimes that all society agrees should not be "situationally ethiced" out of the category of being WRONG - in any culture or time. It is regretful that the parents willing to sell their child to this predator are not sharing his fate - but someone out there would be saying that they were only responding to their hopeless poverty.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#28)
    by nolo on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:33:13 AM EST
    I think the real question here isn't whether active pedophiles should be punished for their activities(of course they should), but whether a 20 year jail sentence is the best way, even from a strictly pragmatic standpoint, to deal with this particular pedophile wannabe. Personally, I can think of better uses for my tax dollars than paying the costs that go with incarcerating a wheelchair-bound 87 year old. And I can think of cheaper ways of keeping his wheelchair-bound ass away from potential victims. Can't you?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:43:18 AM EST
    Ive already said I am up for the Chinese Death Van approach - but that will not become public policy and I am the first to say it should not. The truth of serial crimes is that they start close to home. The happily married man looking at his "Little Girls Naked" in his basement will take his first action on his daughter, or a niece, or perhaps decide to get a foster child to play with. There are things that are wrong and sick - and we are not required as a culture to accept and understand them. We are, I believe, required to do the opposite and protect our children from pedophiles, and the women in our culture from rapists. Period. The point of incarceration is not to reform them but to separate them from our children.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:45:49 AM EST
    nolo...if cost is the issue, see me and JLV's post above. Release a non-violent drug offender doing 20 yrs. over a bag of dope for every pedophile convicted. Monetary problem solved.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:48:24 AM EST
    Mfox.... recently heard that the recidivism rate of sex offenders in "good" programs is less than 10%. I wish that were true but I have always heard just the opposite...so in that case, money spent on intensive therapy is just wasted. there are different "levels" if you will of pedophilia. Yes... but where is the cutoff? Is the semi-pedophile now (IE... Mr. Jackson) the killer pedophile in the future? If a guy was ashamed and sorry, admitted guilt and the desire for help, is jail really the best place? The problem is they're all ashamed & sorry once they are caught. Not an easy question to answer. But there are cases like the one I cited from Fla. earlier that are 'no brainers'. This guy should have had the key thrown away on him!

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:48:38 AM EST
    Many crimes are over-prosecuted or over-punished. Pedophilia ain't one of 'em.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:53:35 AM EST
    Yes... but where is the cutoff? Is the semi-pedophile now (IE... Mr. Jackson) the killer pedophile in the future?
    Does it matter if they kill their victim? What percentage of current jailed folks were sexually or physically abused as children? Isn't this huge? What percentage of rapists and child rapists were sexually abused as children? Huge. Don't we want to end this cycle? That was a rhetorical question.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:54:53 AM EST
    Oh forgot to add:
    BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:03:07 AM EST
    not to belittle the horrible crime we are discussing, but...using the logic of this case, couldn't we pull someone off the next plane to Amsterdam for "planning to smoke hash?" Is this just more "pre-emptive" prosecution?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:07:37 AM EST
    Come on - he paid for a sex tour. Do we only get to arrest people if the guy they pay to kill their wife actually does damage. If you equate buying a ticket and going to the airport to go and have sex with a 9 year old girl as the same as intending to smoke hash - then you have smoked too much hash

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:10:06 AM EST
    Or, If they knew what the Oklahoma City bomber was going to do should they have arrested him for just buying fertilizer

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:13:16 AM EST
    OR, The 9/11 highjackers - they only bought a plane ticket too. Should they have been pre-emptively prosecuted if we knew what was happening

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:36:43 AM EST
    jch- I understand your point but Oklahoma and 911 are bad examples of this since questions will always remain about who was responsible and what action should have been taken. My point is that using this logic to enforce law knows no boundaries and can easily be used to persecute even someone who has broken no laws. Not that I'm standing up for the trenchcoat crowd, mind you. He should be prosecuted for "booking a sex tour", because that seems to be all he did.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:00:21 AM EST
    Billy - Somewhere in the process of every crime there is a point where you cross the line from planning and intent - to carrying out the crime. All McVey did until it exploded was build a bomb. Hadn't he really done more when he parked it in front of the building, set the timer, and walked away? All the 9/11 people did was take flying lessons and get on a plane. We do not have to have someone threaten us; load a gun; point it at us; but wait until they shoot us to assume they are a murderer. The bounds on how far this reaches are a function of public belief, discussion, and democracy. There will always be a question in the process of a crime of where the criminal crossed the line from "thought crime" to real crime - but we do have the right to stop people with clear intent before we are victims. This guy crossed that line in my mind

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#41)
    by anon55 on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:06:26 AM EST
    On "thought crimes," read the rest of the brief article (remembering how the press tends to get these things wrong by overblowing them, too):

    Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents arrested him in October 2003 at Los Angeles International Airport as he was about to board a flight to the Philippines. In his luggage, he had child pornography, sexual aids and nearly 100 pounds of chocolates and other candy. Authorities said he intended to have sex with two girls, ages 9 and 12.

    At the trial, a federal agent testified Seljan, who had been exchanging letters with the two girls, told investigators he had "sexually educated" young girls in the Philippines with their parents' alleged consent since 1983.

    So, in legal terms, and let's try to avoid the "KIL DUH PEDIFILE" thread here, he:

    • Possessed child pornography and other devices one associates with a person who wants to have sex with young (pre-pubescent) children

    • Had been exchanging letters with two girls in the country he was attempting to visit (though nothing says the letters were explicit or even sexual), and

    • Allegedly told police that he had done this before in the Phillipines, allegedly with parental consent, which may render it not a crime there

    So, I have to ask:

    • If he had child pornography in his possession at LAX, why not just charge him with possession of that and avoid the "thought crime" problem? How can he have enough kiddie porn to support this conviction but not one of its own? It's not pot - there's no legal acceptable amount of kiddie porn, is there?

    • If what he's doing is illegal in the Phillipines, why not just extradite him?

    The problem with statutes and convictions like this is that prosecutors, knowing they can get unlimited support for doing anything to a person they can brand as a "pedophile," are too tempted to use them as shortcuts for actions they wish they could prosecute, but that the law does not support. If the facts in the case are like this brief article states, he could have been put away for many years for either kiddie porn, or been extradited to the Phillipines and put away there, which would be even less pleasant, and no one would object to either outcome, even "the liberals." If everything the prosecution says is true, they didn't need this charge to put the guy away. If the facts wouldn't sustain those kinds of convictions, can they support this one?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:15:19 AM EST
    Watch out for what you wish for. Wouldn't it becomes dangerous for anyone to buy a plane ticket ticket to let say Sweden, Thailand or Russia. Isn't it possible for a Travel agent could sell tickets to "normal" folks as well as "Perverts". I recently watched a TV reporter actually purchase a women in a brothel in Cambodia should he get 20 years? This kind of law is frightning. Watch what you wish for!

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:15:24 AM EST
    Of course the answer is that they wanted to get the ball rolling on the legal challenges to the Protect Act; and of course they view reading child porn and going to somewhere offshore to have sex with a child as two different levels of offense (as do I). Next, do we not have a responsibility to keep our own national perverts out of other countries when we know they are going there to committ a crime. Finally, if it is a crime against our standard and mores why should we care whether it is actually a crime in the Phillipines?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:26:25 AM EST
    well said, anonymous. Before that knee jerks, one has to step back and take a good look at the logistics at work here.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:52:40 AM EST
    Insane but totally third world, protect act is nut's but normal in a non system of third world laws. but can i ask if this guy was on s.s., and will the system get the money? for prison costs? and he is 87 and still is thinking about young girls, that is really insane. i love this part about a immigration and customs enforcement and the wheelchair? how was he going to have sex in a wheelchair? with some 15 year old girl?...the more i think about this the more i know bin laden will win. what a joke and how sad..with 30 million people coming into the usa from all over the world, and the system is looking for 87 year old nut cases in wheelchiars..big win for the system, bush do you have the pictures?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:55:02 AM EST
    Appreciate the open minds to my post. Kdog, keep your card. I have the same feelings - if someone hurt my kid in this way I would be all for street justice - they shouldn't live. However I understand that I am making a sacrifice to the rule of law that comes with civilization. Many people feel that severely disabled people are "monsters" who shouldn't live. As we speak, women who have been raped by "the enemy" are considered sub-human by their families. The urge to purge is real and should be acknowledged as such. BB, you raise some good questions.
    recently heard that the recidivism rate of sex offenders in "good" programs is less than 10%. I wish that were true but I have always heard just the opposite...so in that case, money spent on intensive therapy is just wasted.
    I had thought so too, BB. But saw a guy on PBS saying differently. We should both investigate as the possibility of rehab. makes a difference (don't you think?).
    there are different "levels" if you will of pedophilia. Yes... but where is the cutoff? Is the semi-pedophile now (IE... Mr. Jackson) the killer pedophile in the future?
    That would certainly support treating all pedophiles the same. However many never turn into killers. Many live "normal" lives and are never exposed as deviants. I see a stepfather who can't resist child-love because of his childhood experiences and struggles but fails to resist as quantitatively different from someone who stalks and murders. This is not supported by evidence that I'm aware of, just a realization that a real, real lot of otherwise functioning members of society are, well, pedophiles. I expect, in this line of thought that a lot of folks visiting child porn websites never actually molest a child but leave their urges in the realm of fantasy. My point being, are they really all equally dangerous? In general, I don't support preemptive prosecution. However, I've seen documentaries on these sex tours and they are truly abhorrent, disgusting, and everything vile. Yet these travellers are "regular" businessmen, folks "contributing" to our society, who can resist the urge to fondle their nieces, saving it for the eleven year olds in Taiwan. My suggestion, make it illegal in Taiwan and extradite for prosecution. A little Midnight Express action might just have nipped Mr. 87 year olds desire to "see" Taiwan.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:51:48 AM EST
    Mfox, you are right there is a lower recidivism rate than reported, I have posted the stats on this site numerous times. I also agree that preemptive prosecution is wrong, but again I would rather spend my energies fighting for those incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses so I have a hard time even giving this any consideration.....

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    Point taken, JLV. My whole point on this is in the interest of reducing this intergenerational blight on our society by acknowledging that pedophiles aren't crazy looking bad guys or freaks like Michael Jackson, but are our bosses, our brothers and uncles, our sons and co-workers. I feel like, with Marijuana use, if so many people are doing it we can't just keep locking them up and throwing away the key as if that's going to solve anything.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:14:45 PM EST
    (correction to above) ...I feel like, as with Marijuana use...

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:20:07 PM EST
    mfox, i'm worried about your analogy. marijuana use hurts no one except the user (DUI car accidents being a separate matter), while molesting children ONLY hurts the child. there is a profound difference, and the kind of intervention, treatment, isolation from society, a pedophile needs to be "cured" is much more, sadly, than our society is willing to commit. jail is easy, vengeful, and often deserved. is it alone the best way to "protect" society? nope. perhaps we'll evolve to a point where were are capable of getting past mere vengeance and into the realm of actually solving the problem.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    Dadler thanks for clarifying my hastily made point. Let me try to restate. The reason this analogy came to mind was the point recently discussed at this site that if everyone who currently or has used MJ declared themselves criminals and turned themselves in we would have to face the fact that there are so many that something so common in society cannot be legislated away but must be faced as the pervasive influence that it is. In the case of MJ, the ultimate result would be that it would be legalized. Similarly, IMHO, if every man who has been tempted to or has strayed over "the line" in terms of inappropriately touching children stepped forward saying, yes, I am guilty society would be shocked out of it's "let's stone the monster in the public square" mentality. This, because the sheer number of men as well as their productivity in and contribution to society, as well as the fact that we know them - they are part of the collective us would make the idea of shunning, killing, locking up seem overwhelmingly ineffective. The end result would not be decriminalization as in MJ, however, but outreach, education, counseling and protection of the public.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:23:48 PM EST
    As it turns out, a case in point just popped up on Yahoo news. Boy scout official charged with possession of porn Should we lock this guy up and throw away the key (at aprox. $38K per year) before he hurts anyone?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#53)
    by Kitt on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:25:50 PM EST
    I apologize for skipping thru most of the comments. I read someone's that said they couldn't be a police officer because they probably kill (did they say shoot?). I understand. I simply cannot take the exploitation of children, just absolutely cannot. I don't understand it - at all. So..is the thought his age should be a sentencing factor for a crime like this? Because my first thought when reading this story was being 87 - he's been doing it for years...I'll bet real money on it. AND - absolutely, 20 years ..... the rest of his life....if he makes to 107 - he can get out if he has been real good about his chores.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:41:52 PM EST
    Don't get too caught up in "recidivism" rates. They are statistical numbers and we all know how numbers lie. First, the "recidivism" rates are based on how many previously convicted pedophiles are re-convicted - not how many re-offend. Second, if, say, 10% of all pedophiles are ever convicted, then, essentially, 10 out of every 100 existing pedophiles has a prior. Let's say you could convict 100 peodphiles, and 100% of them re-offended. But since only 10% of all pedophiles are ever convicted, of the next 100 you convict, statisticaly only 10 of them would have a prior. Therefor your statistical "recividism" rate would still be 10% - despite the fact that 100% of them re-offended. Personally, it seems like just about every guy I've ever known well enough to talk to about this has had some experience of sexual abuse as a child at the hands (or whatever) of an adult guy, so somehow I very much doubt that 10% of all pedophiles are convicted. My point is take statistics and "recidividsm" rates with a grain of salt.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#55)
    by Johnny on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:47:10 PM EST
    Pedophilia is the common ground between left-wing and wrong-wing people. It has overtaken every other crime as the most horrible imaginable. Otherwise sensible liberals will jump the death penalty bandwagon over this. What constitutes pedophilia? It is a condition that causes adults to have sexual feelings towards minors. Now, minors is a very subjective term, it is "x" age in some states, "y" age in others.... Pederasts those who actually commit the act of sex with minors. Difference. Convicting someone of pedophilia is the same as convicting someone of kleptomania. It is thought crime, dress it up anyway you want to, but until a person commits the physical act of touching a child innappropriately, he is guilty of no crime. Thats why possession of "kiddie porn" has been made a crime. It is a way to arrest, try, and convict people with abberrant sexual proclivities. This man, from what I have read, in all likelyhood has done this before. Good riddance as far as I am concerned, but just remember that any adult who has ever looked with lust at a girl under the whatever arbitrary age is tossed around, is guilty of pedophilia, to what degree remains to be seen of course. Interesting thought-if a man says he is a pedophile, and has no kiddie porn, and has never been proven to improperly touch a child... Would you want to lock him up?

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#56)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:37:30 PM EST
    Good comments on the individual in question, and the subject. But you missed the larger context: NAMBLA, supported by data-chopping studies, is trying to reduce the age of consent, or eliminate it altogether. The ACLU defends NAMBLA in some of its activities, and is not crazy about current age of consent laws. TL is not demonizing this guy. TL is Santa Clausing him. Or whatever the opposite of demonizing is. Now, suppose he was forty years old and an ex-con who, among other things, couldn't hold a note or play slide guitar. It would be harder to Santa Clausize him, but you know somebody would try. One study had an astonishingly low incidence of damage in sexual encounters between adults and children. It was only in looking into the design of the study that it became clear that "encounter" included being looked at in public. Can anybody explain why a study is done in this fashion other than to trivialize the effects of sexual encounters with adults? We will shortly--there's a bit of it on this thread--see the spending of more energy demonzing those who want to punish pedophiles than demonizing pedophiles. Hell. What am I thinking? It's all a coincidence. For those who want to cure pedophiles instead of punish them, how do you tell they're cured? I am aware that there are any number of conspiracy prosecutions which prosecute arranging a crime even if it never goes off. The difference between that and what this guy did is that the prosecutor couldn't show he had a partner. He conspired with himself, which may literally be outside the conspiracy laws, but the point is the same; intent and actions in pursuit of achieving that goal. If you like conspiracy laws, or accept them, the underlying premise, punishing attempts and planning and arrangements could be clearly applied to singles as opposed to groups of two or more.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#57)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:44:47 PM EST
    Oh, yeah, TL. How about unsupervised visits with his grandchildren? I can feel myself getting all misty at the prospect of this guy being forbidden to see his grandchildren in his declining year. Or, no, the air freshener fell over. That's it. It's other people who would get all misty, once TL's plan to half-way house him and maybe get him a community service job as a school crossing guard is put into place. Defense attorneys are a good idea, but in their off hours, they ought to try to remember that without victims they'd be out of a job, so we know victims exist. It's just that victims are so inconvenient at trial. Still, they exist, and faking a bit of sympathy for the vic--speaking generically and outside of the courtroom--can't hurt. It would also help the defense attorneys' image if they were to avoid trying to create more vics by facilitating convicted perps' access to fresh meat. Outside of any particular case they may be trying, I mean, where it's unavoidable.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:43:13 PM EST
    I have to agree with the other far left liberals here who have no freaking sympathy for this guy whatsoever. The only reason I would entertain supporting house arrest is cost, which may have been the poinnt of the post, but the child sex trade is no joke. Throw the key away on this crime, young or old, I don't care. There are plenty of people who are incarcerated who are no danger to society, but when your favority prey is children, I can't think of an age at which it's safe to have someone like that roaming around at all.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:14:40 AM EST
    JCHFleetguy.... Does it matter if they kill their victim? YES..it would matter a great deal! What percentage of current jailed folks were sexually or physically abused as children? I'm sure it's big... but in many cases (MJ) this isn't so Fred Dawes.... what a joke and how sad..with 30 million people coming into the usa from all over the world, and the system is looking for 87 year old nut cases in wheelchiars.. This '87 yr old nut case' is a child molester & should be punished as such! Mfox... In general, I don't support preemptive prosecution. I certainly don't either. That would bring us waaaay too close to that Tom Cruise movie (I forget the name) where they come to your house & arrest you before you do it! However, in the case of this 87 year old, and the recent old guy in Fla. that raped & murdered a 10 year old, they have prior records.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:20:45 AM EST
    johnny... What constitutes pedophilia? Good question. When you are talking 15 -16- 17 year olds it gets kinda mirky. However, in the case of 8 - 10 -12 year olds or younger...it's a lot clearer. Interesting thought-if a man says he is a pedophile, and has no kiddie porn, and has never been proven to improperly touch a child... Unlike others on this post... I don't think that thinking about it qualifies. Many of us have weird thoughts pop into our heads and it doesn't make us bad unless we act on them... IMO

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:04:07 AM EST
    BB Of course it is worse to be dead than to live your life battling the psychological damage of being molested as a child. My point was the thread was beginning to look at the "bad" child molestors being the florida murdering kind - and how do we know if a child molestor is going to go from just groping little Suzie to killing her. The damage to our society (as well as the victim) from the impact of Uncle Fred just groping little Suzie or Johnnie is enough to make this an area of "no tolerance". This isn't "just sex" with someone over some murky arbitrary age line.

    Re: 87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:28:27 AM EST
    I agree BB. Our random thoughts are beyond our control. I'll admit I've caught myself leering at girls who look 16. Then I quickly realize "damn, I'm getting to old to leer at teenagers". Though it is disturbing that there are human beings that think of 12 yr. olds in a sexual way, it can't be criminal, because that is literally "thought crime". If such a sicko acted on these thoughts, life in prison ( w/ no parole) with a frisky cellmate works for me. One thing that cheers me up is molesters and those who hurt children are the absolutle lowest in the prison social structure. They never serve easy time. That bastard priest Geoghan (sp?) got shanked, many molesters face the same fate. No skin off my back.

    87 Year OId Sentenced to 20 Years for Planned Molestation | 62 comments (62 topical)