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Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty

By TChris, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:22:23 PM EST
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by TChris

A bill that would have replaced Connecticut's death penalty with life imprisonment was defeated in the state's House of Representatives yesterday by a vote of 89-60. The bill would have spared serial killer Michael Ross (TalkLeft background here, here, and here) from execution. One of the persons speaking in favor of the bill was a woman Ross raped in 1983.

"I'm not a killer. I couldn't do it," Vivian Dobson said through tears. "I'm so sorry to the parents [of the murder victims] because I lived and their babies died. And I can't change that. But I don't want to be a part of killing somebody else."

"For 18 years, I've been hiding my feelings and holding in my feelings to help those poor girls that he took away from everybody. And I can't. I can't. I can't do it," said Dobson, who escaped after pulling a knife on him. "I've been carrying guilt because now his blood's going to be on my hands, too. And I can't do it. That's not me."

The execution is scheduled for May 11.

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    Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty | 22 comments (22 topical)
    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:33:49 PM EST
    So much for the culture of life.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:39:03 PM EST
    Actually, I can think of no higher affirmation of life than giving the ultimate penalty for the ultimate crime. I do not pity those who kill, I do not weep for them, I do not spend an ounce of energy worrying about them. I don't think this makes me a cold person, I think it reaffirms my love for the innocents who are killed. I respect those who oppose my opinion, but only those who at least understand that it is not an opinion of hatred but one of love.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#3)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:16:32 PM EST
    Yeah, BocaJeff, so what if people actually involved in these crimes don't really agree with you. Clearly this woman is this close to seeing that she'll actually be full of love once they kill this guy. I'm sure you can explain it to her.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:19:54 PM EST
    You'll never hear this in the media, but some of the most ardent opponents of the death penalty are the ones who have lost loved ones to violent crimes, the very people we've been conditioned to believe are the ones who always want to see the vile man (or woman) that wronged them executed. More than once, survivors have asked juries to forego a death sentence in favor of life imprisonment because they realize the fallacy of eye-for-an-eye justice. And in a region of the world that has gradually withdrawn its support of such justice--Connecticut and New Hampshire are the only New England states with the death penalty currently in force--passage of this bill would have sent a message to other states that not everyone wants state-sanctioned killing.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#5)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:20:24 PM EST
    Also, Jeff, I guarantee you that if you ask any Republican on the street (or in the trailer park) why the defendant oughtta get it in the latest death penalty case, they're not going to talk about the f***ing victim. In fact, the more sensational the crime, the more likely they are to just talk about how no human being could do that, he's gotta die, etc. Ah, retribution, juse below love in the pantheon of great human impulses. I'm sure Jesus said that somewhere.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:24:31 PM EST
    That's one brave woman, and a better human being than I.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#7)
    by wishful on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    I respect those who oppose my opinion, but only those who at least understand that it is not an opinion of hatred but one of love.
    I guess my inability to understand this forever blocks my chance of respect from Mr. BJ. Apparently Ms. Dobson is a highly principled human being who chooses not to be part of a murder conspiracy. It pains me to recognize that in this atmosphere of the culture of life, her decision to speak against state-sanctioned murder takes lots of courage. I salute her, and am grateful for her contribution to making it that much easier for the next person to speak up as she did.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:20:46 PM EST
    My grandparents and two aunts were murdered. Their murderers chose their fate, my family didn't. Next.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:24:52 PM EST
    I cannot understand the mindset says it's ok for the government to kill. 'Higher affermation of life", good lord man. If it's wrong for the individual to kill, it's equally wrong for the state to kill.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#10)
    by wishful on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:50:45 PM EST
    It is entirely understandable that a victim or a victim's loved ones seek revenge. That is why we are a nation of laws and not vigilanties. We have recognized the tendency for the injured party to respond emotionally, and so have taken that authority from their hands and put it into the hands of an elaborate justice system. I personally think the system has become terribly corrupted to the point that the color of justice is more green than anything. So I can relate to victims who feel that justice was not done unless the perp is killed. But that doesn't mean that the perp should be killed. We pride ourselves on being a nation of laws. We need to remember why, and do our best to live up to our commitment. BJ, I am sorry for your terrible loss.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:26:02 PM EST
    BocaJeff, I can certainly understand how you feel about this issue. At one time in my life, I would have felt exactly the same--that the only true justice in a case like this is to allow the state to take life in kind. As I've gotten older and grown to understand the ways of the world, however, I cannot abide by the eye-for-an-eye mentality. Not all eyes are treated equally in this country. The same justice that may have been meted out to the murderers of your grandparents and your aunts may not be meted out if someone were to murder my parents or any other close member of my family. The OJ Simpson and Susan Smith trials of the 1990s have burned into my mind forevermore exactly how political the implementation of the death penalty is. I've noted here before that I would only support the death penalty for treason, because everyone is at risk when a person chooses to betray his country. But if death-penalty laws were written to allow an immediate member of a victim's family to actively participate in the execution--that is, specifically, to be completely responsible for starting the apparatus of execution, whatever that might be--I'd think that'd be one step in the right direction. Anyone who wants eye-for-an-eye justice should be willing to look the condemned eye to eye and carry out that sentence himself--legally, of course.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:39:12 PM EST
    ok.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:43:53 PM EST
    I'm not happy witht he way the death penalty is administered. There's some question of guilt involved in enough of its recepients to warrant a re-examination of how we do things. But then again those whose guilt is not in question spend much too long on death row. If we're certain someone deserves death then waiting ten years to do it is a bit ridiculous. That being said the detah penalty is best administered at the time of the crime by one of the victims or a bystander. That's ideal but our culture is devolving away from that. There are too many who don't distinguish between protective violence & predatory violence. Scroll back up to see an example of this in the argument "if it's wrong for the individual to kill then it's wrong for the state to kill". In principle it's always wrong for the government to do something an individual is proscribed from doing. But who said it was always wrong to kill? It's wrong to murder but not to kill. Becaue one or many of the victims doesn't want the blood of their assailant on their hands establishes nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the death penalty. It establishes that the victims in question have a warped sense of morals. I'm pretty sure 99% of you here would have serious issues if you were told you'd have to kill an animal (deer, cow, pig, etc..) in order to eat. Yet you've probably got no qualms about ordering a big mac. Because you're unwilling to kill & butcher your dinner doesn't mean that eating meat is wrong. I feel sorry for Dobson. First because she was a victim of a brutal crime & second because her values are questionable.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#14)
    by wishful on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:52:56 PM EST
    Publicola, it is interesting that your response to those whose values you question is one of pity. What good is your pity exactly?

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:04:54 AM EST
    Eye for eye would be for these mutts to be killed in exactly the same way they took the lives of their victims, not going comfortably to sleep while strapped to a table. Completely different. I have ZERO feeling for murderers. You kill someone maliciously, then you don't desereve to be on this planet PERIOD. And all the better if a higher authority carries out the justified execution. If there were a God, murderers would be struck down instantly so as to spare the world from this misplaced morality. You people talk of respect for human life...murderers are sub-human. Child molestors are sub-human. Stop protecting them.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:05:55 AM EST
    NOT IN MY NAME is fundamental freedom from moral crimes. What a beautiful person. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Powell, et al. committed GENOCIDE, basing their actions on lies, twisted intelligence assessments, religiosity, and an overt theory of collective guilt. They are terrorists; they fail to catch terrorists because they are terrorists. Punishing the crime of genocide is an exception, to my moral sense, to forgiveness for ordinary murder. Genocidists should stand trial for their crimes, and face the potential verdict of death. That's the Nuremberg precedent. GHW Bush's spy-protection law, which someone in W's immediate offices broke -- W is harboring that felon, an impeachable offense among many -- specifically says such calumny against the national security are potentially capital crimes. Military code of honor says the same about torture. Individual murder may or might be given commutation of sentence. Genocide, magnitudes more heinous, cannot be forgiven.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:59:10 AM EST
    I feel sorry for Dobson. First because she was a victim of a brutal crime & second because her values are questionable.
    Her values are those taught by Jesus.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:51:38 AM EST
    hmm would that be the same Jesus who physically & violently drove the merchants out of the temple? Or the same one who admonished that it'd be better for millstones to be hung about someone's neck & they be tossed into the sea than to hurt a child? Or the same one who told his followers to buy a sword if they didn't have one already? Jesus taught many things that have been popularly misunderstood. He never advocated letting someone commit cold blooded murder. He advocated forgiveness of sin, but only to those who were repentent. & mostly the sins he forgave were of a social/religious nature that didn't involve permanent harm to the victim. He tried to teach observing the law w/ compassion, not disregarding it for some touchy feely utopian state that doesn't exist. But look, the bottom line is Dobson is feeling guilty because the man who raped her & killed how many others is facing death for his actions. She's transferring the blame that he should be feeling (he's facing consequences for his actions) to herself as part o some warped justification for his crime against her. She's thinking if she forgives him & lets him off the hook somehow that she'll be all better. It doesn't work that way. She's gonna feel horrible for a long time because of him. & she'll feel guilty that she lived unless she comes to terms with the way the world works - that it wasn't her fault he was a monster & there's simply nothing that can be done with monsters but to gurantee that they'll not harm anyone again.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:21:20 AM EST
    Publicola Are you a shrink or just play one on this blog. Why do devalue her beliefs, is it because it makes you feel better given that you have the same values? I can play the same dumb game. While Jesus was dying on the cross he said "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" Your version of what Jesus taught was not taught to me in my 12 years in Catholic school. But there is a lot of purposeful misrepresentation out there to justify the actions of the Christian right.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:23:09 AM EST
    should have read that you dont have the same values?

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:31:07 PM EST
    Posted by Publicola: "hmm would that be the same Jesus who physically & violently drove the merchants out of the temple?" The Bible doesn't say anything about 'violently.' He overturned some tables, and shouted a lot, then made his point. You pretend that he was hitting people in the face, or stabbing them. "Or the same one who admonished that it'd be better for millstones to be hung about someone's neck & they be tossed into the sea than to hurt a child?" I'm unfamiliar with that line. GWB has murdered possibly 50,000 children. Do you think he's right with Jesus? "Or the same one who told his followers to buy a sword if they didn't have one already?" Another line I'm not familiar with. You must have one of those 'special' Bibles. But why would you think that everything put in Jesus' mouth is correct or something he actually said? That's real naive, Pbl. That line sounds like you're quoting Revelations. Do you REALLY think that the words of that scripture are Jesus'? Or are you just blowing wind. "He tried to teach observing the law w/ compassion, not disregarding it for some touchy feely utopian state that doesn't exist." Hilarious. For sure Jesus wasn't 'touchy feely.' He's just "gentle and humble of heart." There is a difference between those who love god with all their hearts, and those who are so humble they do not spare themselves the possibility that their faith is in vain. Such humility! But the bigots and killers all are sure their faith is the right one, and they are its heroes.

    Re: Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 01:04:01 AM EST
    ""Or the same one who admonished that it'd be better for millstones to be hung about someone's neck & they be tossed into the sea than to hurt a child?"" It took me awhile to remember this. You mislead again. The text is MISLEAD a child spiritually, not 'hurt' a child, with its suggestion of violence or rape. I hope you realize the Bible rebuke all you violence-mongering racists who cover for torture: "I was sick and in prison, and you did not look after me." And Jesus on the right wing? "But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads, and put them on men's shoulders, but they they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." (Bush lifts a finger to the words of Jesus and the lives of the troops:) "Now watch this drive..."

    Ross Victim Opposes Death Penalty | 22 comments (22 topical)