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Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL

By TChris, Section Elections
Posted on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:35:05 AM EST
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by TChris

Will Florida ever get it right?

A computer glitch caused Miami-Dade County's electronic voting machines to throw out hundreds of ballots in a special election March 8 and raised questions about votes in five other municipal elections, officials said. The problem came to light when officials noticed a high number of undervotes in the election on whether to have slot machines at tracks and jai alai frontons. That measure was defeated. Undervotes are ballots with no recorded votes.

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    • Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL | 19 comments (19 topical)
    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#1)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:13:38 AM EST
    Only in America Inc. would we be told there is nothing wrong with outsourcing our Sovereign Franchise. Move along, move along, nothing to see here. Pay no attention to the corporations behind the curtain.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:27:28 PM EST
    Check this out..... APRIL FOOLS, they don't really care.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#3)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:36:54 PM EST
    Here's my solution: Every machine vote should produce a paper ballot, verified by the voter. Different individuals should be responsible for the paper ballot count and the machine count. There should be community oversight of the counting process. The two tallies must match. Any discrepancy should trigger an automatic full recount. In case of an unresolved discrepancy, the paper ballots should be declared official. Anyone responsible for a discrepancy due to neglect or fraud should be required to foot the bill for the recount.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:47:47 PM EST
    Machine receipts have their own particular problem, namely that such receipts need to be DETACHED from any others, and randomly fall into a bin. Instead, vote-fraud companies prefer to run the receipts on a roll of paper, which creates the risk that, in combination with security cameras, someone's vote can be exposed. Diebold and other such felons are already talking of marketing such taped results as demographic research materials. As for 'automatic recount'...in your dreams. We qualified for a recount of Ohio, but SecState Katherine Blackwell refused to allow it. We have affidavits from the election officials that the voting company, Triad Systems, changed out the circuit boards on counting computers around the state, but the Justice Dept. ain't interested. They don't investigate FELONIES any more. 28 states = NO RECOUNT RIGHT. That's why Bush is sitting where he is, even though Kerry won the election (Gore also won back in 2000).

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#5)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:35:58 PM EST
    Paul, Yep, definitely. The voter verified receipt needs to be detached and then fall into a bin, under the observation of the voter. Also, the machine count and the hand count need to be entirely separate activities with entirely separate staff and observers. And, we need an automatic full recount if there is any discrepancy between the two totals. This should become law in every state! And, yep...I agree with you about the past elections. I believe, truly I do, that ordinary people want to know that their vote is being counted honestly and accurately. Let us ask and find out exactly how our votes are being counted and what checks and balances are in place to insure against fraud. The explanations we get should be complete, logical, understandable, and sensible. The explanations should match what actually happens and we, ordinary people, should have a right to verify it. If any of the above doesn't add up, then fraud can and will take place. We need to require change, or we will all lose, over and over again.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#6)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    I agree there needs to be an independently verifiable for e-voting to be considered a legitimate tool for expressing Sovereign Franchise. The real question is, why is a paper trail almost always opposed by the GOP in state legislatures whenever this comes up? Can anyone provide a case of the Democratic Party opposing paper trails in e-voting?

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#7)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:46:38 PM EST
    oops. Insert the words "paper trail" between the words "verifiable" and "for" in the previous post.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peter G on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:23:26 PM EST
    I love that the election was on whether to allow slot machines at race tracks. The "slot machines" are also computer run, and they probably determine whether you "won" or "lost" your bet just as competently and/or honestly as the voting machines. And just as easy to verify or question the integrity of the result.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:27:15 PM EST
    Personally, I'd feel most comfortable if I could verify my own vote. With e-voting, it would be fairly easy to print for each voter, a receipt of their ballot, identified by a code number. At the end of the election day, post all the ballots on the Internet. The ballots would be visible to everyone, to examine, tally, etc. The only link between the voter and his ballot, would be this code number, so only someone who knew a voter's code number could connect a particular ballot to him. The code number could be part randomly generated, part voter entered. Hundreds of people, verifying that their ballots were tallied correctly, AFTER the election, would certainly cut down on fraud. I’d also go with the “purple thumb.” I’d incorporate these ideas with Lora’s suggestions from above. One problem I see with unresolved discrepancies between the paper trail and the machine count, and you know it will happen, is that if you declare either primary over the other, the secondary one becomes trivial.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:33:59 PM EST
    If my grocery store and gas station can give me a paper receipt for complex transactions, a voting machine should easily be programmed to do the same. I could review the paper print-out and insert it into the locked ballot box, where it would be available as a back-up.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:11:22 PM EST
    We have no way of being sure who is actually getting the most votes in elections until we have the verifiable papertrail. Til then we only get to know who won the election. I fear we have entered the post-democratic era.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:48:46 AM EST
    We need to build support for Jesse Jackson Jr.s 28th Amendment push, for a national right for citizens to vote for president, eliminating the potential for a return to state election of the president. I think is likely that the fraud governors of CA and FL will be trying to push a return to state senate selection of rubberstamped chief execs. I expect Backroom Arnold to try to run that as one of his improper ballot initiatives, since he seems to have ZERO interest or aptitude to work with our representatives in Sacto. I also think it is obvious that Bush intends to have the SCOTUS void the 22nd amendment some time in 2007.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 06:23:30 PM EST
    Oh, correction TChris, undervotes are not ballots with no votes, but ballots that have no vote recorded in some area. Thus, an undervote for President, which supposedly carries the presumption that the voter didn't care to vote on that issue. In 2004, and probably for a long time before, punchcard ballots were found that were PRE-VOTED. They were already punched for Bush, so that if anyone voted for Kerry, they OVERvoted, and the ballot was tossed out. Undervoted ballots aren't tossed out. In the case of the case mentioned, only those who undervoted for president or voted for pre-punched Bush, actually got their votes recorded. The beauty part is that the Kerry voters had their entire ballot tossed for voting for him. There is no legitimate reason for tossing out the whole ballot even if someone votes for both candidates. Indeed, voting for both is a kind of undervoting.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#14)
    by roy on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 08:06:08 PM EST
    There has also been a recent screwup in Washington. Of course, when elections are broken in Washington, Democrats win, so I guess it's OK.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:58:08 PM EST
    Roy, meet Jim. You both try to sell this bias line here every time the issue comes up. And it's bullsh*t, so that fits you. We had to raise a million dollars to recount WA, and the R candidate and party fought it the whole way. Compare with Ohio, where we raised the necessary $120,000 and SecState Katherine Blackwell refused to allow it to occur. Where we have affidavits that the electronic company Triad replaced the circuit boards to prevent a recount. Where they supplied FAKE NUMBERS to report. Whatever occured in WA, it doesn't compare to TWO huge felonies in Ohio and the SecState refusing to allow the recount. I'm all in favor of revoting the entire country, with a paper trail. But then your guys don't win. Since your concern is with fairness, right?, you won't mind that. And when Bush goes to prison for his crimes, I'm sure you will be one of those who fought for justice against the Election-Fraud-in-Chief. The War-Criminal-in-Chief. The Corrupt-Criminal-in-Chief. Cause you care. All of you f*ks care so much, you have stood back and applauded as he has raped the Republic. Like trained seals with lips pursed. This ain't the old days--we have the evidence on DVD. The crimes are recorded, and Bush's DNA is all over the place-- big, bloody fingerprints. Or are those hoof-prints? Look, there's the bloody imprint of a spiral tail. It's him all right. The bloody liar.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 08:05:56 AM EST
    PIL writes - "Diebold and other such felons are already talking of marketing such taped results as demographic research materials." Could we have a small amount of proof for this claim?

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 08:12:44 AM EST
    PIL - And the recount was stopped when the Demos were ahead by 11 votes with about 1300 still to go. Please...... don't talk about election stealing. Your nose is growing.

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#18)
    by Adept Havelock on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 09:11:19 AM EST
    Link, please?

    Re: Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL (none / 0) (#19)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    WRT Washington State. New find of paper ballots, uncounted and sitting in a box someplace. Even paper ballots can be screwed up, either accidentally or on purpose. How about, in addition to fixing this situation, however it is done, adding the Purple Finger of Patriotism to the mix? That would solve the problem which seems to have happened in Wisconsin and Minnesota of van loads of people showing up at a voting location, no local address available, but a local person who just happens to be on hand who knows each and every one of them and vouches for them. There is some (snort) suspicion they may have gone to more than one location. Are the dems for this?

    Another Voting 'Glitch' in FL | 19 comments (19 topical)