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Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Option Battle

The filibuster battle likely will hit next week over the nominations of Priscilla Owen and Janice Rogers Brown. TalkLeft opposes both, and urges Senator Reid and the Democrats to stick to their guns and fight tooth and nail to preserve the independence and integrity of our judiciary.

Both nominees were blocked by filibuster and then renominated by Bush this past February. Reasons to oppose Owen are here. . For Rogers Brown, go here.

From PFAW's press release today:

It is widely expected that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist will use expected filibusters against Texas Supreme Court Justice Priscilla Owen and California Supreme Court Justice Janice Rogers Brown, who could be brought to the floor as early as next week, as an excuse to trigger his “nuclear option” – a parliamentary abuse of power that would break Senate rules in order to eliminate the checks and balances provided for more than 200 years by the Senate’s filibuster rules and tradition of extended debate.

“Senator Frist appears ready to force a confrontation on nominees who have already been rejected for the appeals court,” said Neas. “A 95 percent approval rate for Bush judges isn’t good enough for the far right. So Senator Frist will try to justify gutting the fundamental constitutional principle of checks and balances to help a couple of judges get lifetime jobs that more than 40 U.S. Senators think they are unfit to hold. That is a terrible tradeoff for the American public.”

Update: For all you need to understand just how extremist these women are, take a look at who's pushing their confirmations. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) personnifies the radical right. Here's what he said today about Janice Rogers Brown:

[Sessions] said Brown was the type of judge the country needs, who has “a reverence for our Constitution, who will approach these issues with independence, an open mind, a lot of common sense, a willingness to work hard and an ability to communicate clearly and effectively.”

Yet, her nomination is opposed by every African-American organization that has voiced an opinion about her fitness to serve, including the NAACP, the National Bar Association, and the Congressional Black Caucus. She's a Clarence Thomas wannabe.

If confirmed, she will go from being a state court judge in California to the D.C. federals appeal court, which is considered a stepping stone to a nomination for the U.S. Supreme Court.

CivilRights.Org had this to say today about Rogers Brown and Owen:


Rogers Brown's record on civil rights and discrimination cases is not just troubling - it is appalling. Her record demonstrates not just hostility, but active antagonism toward victims of discrimination. She has proven time and again that she has little or no respect for established precedent or the law. And most disturbingly, she is entirely unable, or unwilling, to keep her ideological preferences off the bench and outside the court room.

Priscilla Owen is no better. She has been repeatedly chided for trying to rewrite or override the law to suit her ideological vision. President Bush's own U.S. Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, called one of these attempts 'an unconscionable act of judicial activism.' Owen isn't known for fairly interpreting and applying the law, she's known for rewriting it to fit her worldview.

Like the ten other recycled Bush nominees, Janice Rogers Brown and Priscilla Owen don't deserve lifetime appointments to the federal bench. There are hundreds of more qualified, better suited judges out there - more than 200 of President Bush judicial nominees have been confirmed by bipartisan support - yet the president seems determined to ram through a couple of previously rejected judicial activists.

It is absolutely unconscionable that the president and Senate Republican leaders are prepared destroy our system of checks and balances over a handful of unfit, unqualified judges like Rogers Brown and Owen."

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    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#1)
    by roger on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:12:56 AM EST
    If the Repubs want to change the rules for these two clowns, then something is very, very, wrong.

    Ah yes, People for the American Way; a nonpartisan group dedicated to the truth if ever there was one. I'd rather not see the filibuster killed off; I'd rather see it actually used. I don't have much hope that Frist has suddenly found within himself the will to do his job, but I'd love to see those opposed to these nominations take the floor and attempt to hold it, killing off all other work. It would be a valuable lesson in how our government works, and why it often doesn't, for anyone interested enough to watch

    justpaul, Just what exactly are People for the American Way's alleged false statements? Please list, with references.

    Tristero, Did I actually say that they had made any false statements? No, I didn't. I made a sarcastic statement about their general standing. As noted previously in other threads, except for matters of absolute fact, all things are open to disagreement and discussion. The People for the American Way are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a nonpartisan, unbiased font of information. Their statements about Owens and Rogers are therefore as suspect as anything any other idealogical group might say in favor of or opposed to these nominees, and should not, in my opinion, be presented as reason to oppose them without a disclaimer to the affect that this is hardly unbiased logic. Sorry if the sarcasm escaped you. If Owens and Rogers are as bad as PAW or TalkLeft or the ACLU would like us to believe, those now only threatening a filibuster should have no trouble sustaining one. I would like to see them do it rather than see the effective functioning of the government continue to be hijacked by nothing more than a threat to filibuster and backroom slander campaign. Barring that, I would rather see the filibuster against these nominees fail than see it done away with.

    tristero - Brown was re-elected in California, wih a huge majority. Something around 70%. Now, tell me, just how far from the American mainstream can she be? Her sin is this. She is female, black and doesn't toe the leftist party line. The Demos cannot tolerate that, because once the dam breaks, the trickle might become a flood. As for your question re PFAW, I am reminded of the line from a poem: "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways." PFAW is unrelentingly to the left, and a staunch Demo supporter.

    JustPaul, Didn't Gingrich et al shut down the govt on several occasions on Clinton's watch? I remember thinking that the govt wasn't working very well due to partisan hysteria. Shouldn't federal judges nominated be at least moderately mainstream? Weren't Clinton's nominees blocked at every turn? Isn't the filibuster designed to prevent the "Tyranny of the Majority" suffered by the English legislature and used explicitly to prevent political outlyers from either side? Filibustering can be used for good or "evil" but is necessarily a reflection of a divided electorate. The president is setting up Democrats by trying to shove some very right wing judges through and then crying "Obstruction" when we won't swallow all of them. Give it a rest George. Find a couple of mainstream conservative judges and watch them sail through.

    mfox, Given that the word "filibuster" appears nowhere in the Constitution, it's quite a stretch to claim that it was "setup" for any purpose at all, at least in regard to any action taken by the founding fathers. As for anything Newt Gingrich might have done: So what? I don't recall applauding then and I'm not applauding now. Were you applauding then? If not, why are you now? As for "mainstream" judges: This is a classic case of everyone defining what mainstream is to suit themselves; what it means depends on where exactly you stand on the idealogical spectrum. In your case, given your near rampant liberalism, I suspect "mainstream" actually lies somewhere around Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy. Needless to say, a majority (dare I say "mainstream"?) of your fellow citizens disagree. But as noted above, Janice Rogers Brown won re-election with 70% of the vote. In California of all places. if that's not "mainstream" enough for you, what is? How many of Clinton's blocked nominees enjoyed that level of support at home? So if it's not a matter of her being outside of the mainstream, what is the problem? Don't let your need to constantly find someone to fight with blind you to the fact that I support the Democrats in their right to use the filibuster; my only objection is that I would like to see them actually have to do it, rather than get away with just threatening to do it. Frist is a fool for letting this crap go on as long as it has.

    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:56:34 AM EST
    Her sin is this. She is female, black and doesn't toe the leftist party line. The Demos cannot tolerate that, because once the dam breaks, the trickle might become a flood.
    This statement implies that Dems are racist and anti-women. It should be noted that the NAACP is against her The fact is she is very very very far to the right.

    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:57:46 AM EST
    From the above link
    "Janice Rogers Brown has a record of hostility to fundamental civil and constitutional rights principles, and she is committed to using her power as a judge to twist the law in ways that undermine those principles, said Hilary Shelton, director, NAACP Washington Bureau. "For the administration to bring forward a nominee with this record and hope to get some kind of credit because she is the first African American woman nominated to the DC Circuit is one more sign of the administration's political cynicism."


    Do we have an accurate whip count on this? I show Dems at 47 strong (44 Dems + Jeffords, Chafee & McCain) Need to know where the following GOP Senators stand: Collins (ME) Snow (ME) Voinovich (OH) Hagel (NE) Sununnu (NH) Smith (OR) Need 3 to block - I am sure at least 2 of these will vote against.

    Looks to me like the criticisms boil down to these: (1) too many dissents (Owen) (2) her colleagues feelings were hurt (Rogers Brown) (3) sympathizes with the right (both). None of these have anything to do with judicial qualificiation. Justices are allowed (and expected) to dissent when their conclusions are in disagreement with their colleagues'. Hurt feelings isn't even worth mentioning. And as for being on the political right...since when is a judge required to adhere to a particular political philosophy to be qualified? (since the Left began pushing that agenda, some would argue). None of the statements in these two links actually refer to a decision that was in disagreement with THE LAW, only statements that were in disagreement with the LEFT. I'm wondering...is the left capable of objective thought, or is all leftist thinking colored by politics?

    As someone who AGREES with Justice Brown, and as someone who helped POPULARLY ELECT the President who has the CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY to nominate her, why is it okay to have the Democrats in the Senate use procedural motions to prohibit their even coming up for a vote? Why are you all so afraid that someone with a different point of view (a point of view shared by a large portion, possibly a majority, of the population) being on the Bench? I thought Liberals were open minded! This is exceedingly undemocratic!

    why is it okay to have the Democrats in the Senate use procedural motions to prohibit their even coming up for a vote? Because you and your corrupt Republican kind used these same procedural motions against Democrats, Gerry. You shouldn't change the rules now simply because they no longer benefit you. Not that you won't. Republicans always support expedience over virtue.

    "Because you and your corrupt Republican kind used these same procedural motions against Democrats, Gerry." WAAH! So you are suggesting it was right for them so it is right for you? Amazing show of maturity and principle there. This is crybaby tactics. Shut up and vote.

    In one dissent, Brown asserted that when “fundamentally moral and philosophical issues are involved and the questions are fairly debatable (my emphasis), the judgment call belongs to the Legislature,”
    I appreciated the actual case descriptions on Owen (who if I were a senator I would vote against). There was none of that with Brown (why?) but there was this quote above as an example of her unsuitability. I agree with this statement - why isn't this the work of the legislature?

    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:42:56 PM EST
    Gerry, It the way things work, the Repubs did it to Clinton. so pot kettle and all that They have approved over 200 of Bush's nominee's. maybe they should think about nominating someone less extreme.

    On Sunday, April 24th, Senate Majority Leader Bill First will join James Dobson, Tony Perkins and assorted members of the conservative American Taliban for "Justice Sunday." This made-for-TV event is part of the Right's ongoing war against Senate Democrats' use of the filibuster to block a handful of Bush judicial nominees. As Frist prepares to implement the nuclear option, it is worth noting the subtle irony at the center of the Justice Sunday event. As their flyer states, "The filibuster was once abused to protect racial bias, and now it is being used against people of faith." Today's Southern, conservative Republicans opposing the judicial filibuster are the descendents of the Southern, conservative Democrats who once filibustered against anti-lynching laws and other civil rights legislation. The conservative, religious right apparently believes in a theory of evolution after all... For more, see: "A Conservative Theory of Evolution"

    But my question (if you know this) is why not get rid of this stupidity now. Or do we wait until the right is filibustering the left and then want it gone.

    Justpaul, Oh, I caught that you were being sarcastic. What I didn't realize was that you were lying through your teeth. If I had said sarcastically that the Bush administration is dedicated to the truth, and I couldn't provide a single example, you'd be quite justified to say I was lying about what I know about this administration.* Similarly, you said that People for the American Way weren't dedicated to the truth, without bothering to find out whether they were or not. You lied about what you knew about them. And that is an "absolute fact." You assume that partisan arguments cannot be truthful. That is the height of sophomoric cynicism. They most certainly can be, when they are based on facts. As far as I know, People for the American Way has always been truthful. You don't like them? Fine. But if you call them untruthful and you deliberately haven't bothered to determine whether or not that is so, you are not being sarcastic, you are lying. *If you wish to call my bluff, please go to my blog which details numerous examples of Bush administration lies, both large, larger, and utterly disgraceful.

    Santorum is backing down. An internal poll of the GOP, which they won't release the numbers to, has scared enough Repuglicans into leaning towards NOT getting rid of the filibuster. The people of the U.S. couldn't care less about the removing the current rules of use for the filibuster, they resent the supposed Religious majority insinuating themselves(and mostly stong arming themselves) into avenues of everyday life that they have no business being in. The pandering the GOP has done to the right wing extremist "Christians" is going to create a backlash that will leave neo-fascists like Gerry O, Justpaul, and everyones favorite ppj with their heads spinning when they realize their views aren't held by the rest of this great countrys' citizenry. I love it when the Right gets it WRONG. Am I crazy or is it starting to look like Kerry losing (and many intelligent people aren't convinced he did, but the jury is still out with me) might have been a good thing for the Democrats?

    70% is a percentage that keeps coming up in this filibuster debate. It is the same number that the GOP's own poll found of Americans OPPOSED to getting rid of the filibuster. (This isn't the same poll I referred to earlier, I believe it was the one done by GOP Pollster David Winston for the Winston Group. If not then it was the internal poll. I get them confused) So if the Repuglican party represents the will of a "majority" of the voters in this country, where is all the political capital Shrub claimed he had after being "re-elected"? I'm not sure but I think we are starting to witness the melt-down of the GOP, and I am loving every minute of it. Now the Dem's need to start focusing on what the public is really concerned about, which isn't gay folks marrying, the government trying to usurp decision making when it comes to medical care, or Republican activist judges. Instead they need to focus on the major issue concerning all of us, the dire straits we are about to be in economically.

    In my first post I said the internal GOoPer poll
    has scared enough Repuglicans into leaning towards NOT getting rid of the filibuster.
    But what I meant to say is it has scared SOME into leaning towards not getting rid of the filibuster, most notably Man/Dog Santorum, who is looking at a tough battle next year for his Senate seat.

    What a price to pay for 10 Judges!?! Does the GOP really want to: (a) Risk alienating voters in the midterm could begin to see them more as power-hungry lunatics that are more concerned with being petty about a handful of extremist judges (and keeping Teri Shaivo's tube intact) than a majority party actively working on issues that concern the vast majority of Americans (security, economy, etc). (b) Seem completely beholdent to a scary religious cult (that, despite their cries to the contrary are NOT the majority in this nation) and their out-of-the maintream values. (c) Change a rule that will, inevitably allow the Democrats to appoint out-of-the mainstream liberals when the shoe is on the other foot (can anyone say Lani Guineere). The GOPers I know that voted for Bush did so primarily because they didn't trust Kerry on the issue of national security. They are presently HORRIFIED that the party and its President (no surprise to me of course) have gone down the "man-dog love" path of Rick Santorum and company. I think Kerry losing in 2004 (and, for the record he did lose, sad but true - he was a terrible candidate) may have been the best thing to happen to the party in a long time!

    wingers keep spewing lets have a vote on the nominees, heck no, lets have a vote on ending the filibuster (or whatever it is that prevents the vote), rethugs not moving on that option to fast are they, maybe they understand what the wingers here do not, politics are cyclic and they know full well their cycle is about up, and they certainly want the ultimate "nuclear option (theFilibuster)" available when life balances itself, as it almost always does.

    Jon - Actually, the number is somewhere around 20% of the total, which is much more than a "handfull." out - Again you misrepresent. Reducing the filibuster cloture to a majority on judical nominations does not mean that ALL filibusters are dead. Remember. These are Senate rules, and may be changed by the Senate. BTW - Can you name me a filibuster by Repubs against a Demo President's judical nominatons? SD - So with the opposition of the NAACP she still received 75% of the CA voters blessings? That speaks volumes about how far the NAACP has wandered in its abandonment of its original mission. JCH - I may have been hasty in my belief that you are a Leftie. ;-) The reason why is this: The Left cannot win at the polls, so they want all questions settled by the judges who agree with them. Drew - Please show us the filibusters by the Repubs against Demo nominations for the judicary.

    PPJ, No problem - I am a weird duck that is probably a little hard to catagorize politically.

    This is crybaby tactics. No, changing the rules when you don't get your way is "crybaby tactics." Which Republicans seem to have perfected. Please show us the filibusters by the Repubs against Demo nominations for the judicary. When you have a majority on the judiciary committee, you don't have to filibuster - you simply don't vote a nominee out of committee. It's a procedural tactic with the same end, as you well know. Republicans will do anything to get what they want. You know it, I know it; why don't you sell your lie to someone foolish enough to buy it?

    Jim, the republicans didn't need to filibuster Clinton's nominees, they just went with procedural delays etc to block the nominations. Here are the most recent stats on judicial nominees: I think it's clear that Dubya has been less stymied in his appointments than Clinton. Both parties play politics with the confirmation process. Quit complaining when Dubya can't pack the fed courts with idealogues. G. W. Bush (to date) Circuit Court 52 nominated 35 or 67% confirmed Fed Dist Court 174 nominated, 162 or 93% confirmed Clinton (2nd Term) Circuit Court 64 nominated 35 or 55% confirmed Fed Dist Court 178 nominated 137 or 77% confirmed Clinton (1st Term) Circuit Court 42 nominated 30 or 71% confirmed Fed Dist Court 204 nominated 170 or 83% confirmed.

    Drew writes - "It's a procedural tactic with the same end, as you well know." Actually, it is not. In the former, the people had elected a majority of a party. In that case, the Repubs. The Repubs chose to not support a nomination, and to not place it on the floor for a vote. The majority had spoken, through their representatives. In this case, the people have again elected a majority or a party, not only in Congress, but in the Executive as well. This is a strong statement of the will of the people. Only in this case, the minority has chosen to reject the will of the people by filibustering. As I noted above, the Left doesn't trust the will of the people. The charge for correcting your "lie" is only a nickel. CA - See above. And please, spare us the scorecard. The constitution doesn't say... "x" number shall be advised and consented on.

    When is Bill Frist and John Thune going to get it throught their thick, idiotic heads that one day this tactic will backfire on them. There will be one day in which there will be a liberal in the white house and a liberal senate. My Lord, if that president wanted to put another William Brennan or William Douglas on the supreme court, I would want to filibuster them. I think Frist is shooting himself in the foot.

    The will of the people, PPJ? You and I both know that you and your ilk don't care about that. If you did, it'd be President Al Gore, wouldn't it?

    Tristero, If you can't deal with a little tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, there's very little I can do for you. If you can't even understand that what PFAW says is "the truth" and what other people might say is "the truth" can differ greatly, and that both sides will believe they are correct, I'm not even interested in trying to help. Enjoy your view of the world through those black and white lenses and if that means you want to call me a liar for seeing shades of grey, so be it.

    Drew - You fail to understand the central point in my comment. In both cases the will of the people has been demonstrated. My ilk and I accept their will, and the result of the elections. You do not accept the will of the people, and do not trust them. Having lost, you now want to rule by making sure that the judges appointed reflect your political beliefs. Why do you hate democracy?

    The Repubs chose to not support a nomination, and to not place it on the floor for a vote. The majority had spoken, through their representatives. It really gets tiring to keep bringing up the "blue slip" rules of the Senate Judiciary Committee again and again and again. The judicial confirmation process has never been a purely majoritarian one. Mr. Hatch changed those rules during the Clinton administration so that one Senator could block a nominee from even being formally considered by the Committee. See, that's real democracy. When a Republican took the White House, Mr. Hatch scrapped the "blue slip" rule entirely, leaving only the filibuster. Why do you hate democracy? Drew - Please show us the filibusters by the Repubs against Demo nominations for the judicary. Well, in 2000 Senator Bob Smith attempted to filibuster Circuit Court nominees Marsha Berzon and Robert Paez, a Circuit Court nominee. Senator Frist voted to support the Paez filibuster, as did Republican Senators Allard, Bond, Brownback, Burns, Cochran, Craig, Crapo, DeWine, Fitzgerald, Grassley, Gregg, Inhofe, Kyl, Lott, McConnell, Nickles, Santorum, Sessions, Shelby, Thomas, and Warner. Of course, you'll only count successful filibusters, right? But guess what? The filibusters were unsuccessful only because more than sixty senators voted to approve the nominees. At least Senator Smith got to give a ringing speech endorsing the sanctity of the filibuster---I suggest you Google(TM) it. Why do you hate democracy? Perhaps President Bush could look at his two hundred other nominees that have been approved and find some additional people that at least sixty senators can approve of. President Clinton was apparently able to do that much, in a Senate controlled by the opposition party.

    one Senator could block a nominee from even being formally considered by the Committee. See, that's real democracy
    Why would keeping the committee from considering a candidate be democracy?

    Why would keeping the committee from considering a candidate be democracy? Hey, give me a break. There's no button for the sarcasm tag. I hope the general tenor of the comment somewhat offsets this omission, given that it's a response to someone who is so in love with the clever debate tactic of asking, "Why do you want to kill all adorable puppies?"

    Mds sorry: to quote that famous political pundit
    Rosanna Rosannadana: Never mind


    PPJ you missed the gist of the thought, so it leads you to conclude my statement "misrepresents". read slowly, "vote on eliminating the filibuster" (straight up/down as you like it), kind of hard to misrepresent that. don't think the votes are there for elimination, so the current procedures remain in tact. read again to ensure you comprehend, "vote on eliminating the filibuster".

    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 10:46:57 AM EST
    jim, ignoring c.a.'s numbers is like claiming the sky is green, even when you can look up and see it's blue. those numbers essentially explain the situation. what they say is that both parties play the same games with relatively the same percentage of nominees. when the right thinks someone is too far to the left, they've blocked them. when the left thinks someone is too far to the right, they block them. and that is it. and that supports with concrete numbers a statistically consistent advise and consent role ove the last twelve years. this is an ideological debate. and ideology and politics go hand in hand. yours wants one thing, mine wants another. and since we all have to co-exist, few if any of us ever get our way all the time. our parents teach us that. bush oughtta learn the same lesson with his nominees. hell, clinton backtracked on a few nominees. all bush does is crap on your head and expect you to eat it. not gonna happen.

    I love how the GOPers site their love of the "majority of Americans" and how this majority is being "represented" by the majority party in congress. Both left and right wing judicial activist ideologues are NOT favored by a majority of Americans. Polling overwhelmingly shows that people want fair minded, politically neutral (as much as is possible), and I certainly would ecco this sentiment. Clinton made (and this was likely out of necessity) selections to the court that for the most part fit within the parameters of main stream America. When moderate nominees were chosen, the GOP brought them to the floor and they were confirmed. When Republicans deemed a Clinton candidate (fairly or unfairly) as being outside the mainstream, they blocked the nomination. The Democrats are currently doing the same thing (using a slightly different approach). This is why we have checks and balances in our democracy - to keep the interest of the vast majority of Americans (the great middle) front and center while simultanously protecting the rights of the minority. When it works, I think the system is pretty good. GOP extremists are playing tactical games and using tactical arguments to really harm one of the fundemental pillars of our democracy. They do so at their own peril, because

    ... as we know, the shoe will one day be on the other foot and then a Democrat president and majority in congress will push through ideologues on the other side.

    In both cases the will of the people has been demonstrated. Demonstrated, but not heeded, as was obviously the case in 2000. You didn't care then, of course. Let's not pretend you care about democracy, PPJ. You don't; you and your kind care about power, not the means by which you acquire it.

    Drew - Ah, now we are down to the "your kind" comment. What is my kind, Drew? And what is magic about 2000? Your side lost, and even on the recount your side lost. You're just a sore loser. dadler - Sorry guy, I can't figure out what you are trying to say. My point about CA was that it is remarkable that she won with 75% of the vote, given the states Democratic majority and large left wing population, if she is so far to the right. mds - Well, you've mentioned one. Sam - The filibuster is not in the constitution. et al - This is about keeping females and blacks on the Demo reservation. Nothing else.

    Last time I checked, the consitution was a living & breathing document. Ethics committees dealing with issues like Tom Delay are not in the constitution either. As a moderate, I am saddened that we will now get WACKY right wing lunatics appointed now and then, in the future, WACKY left wing lunatics when it comes time for the Demos to take control. I speak for the majority - we want moderate judges a real senate that debates issues (not just another version of the Rubber Stamping house).

    Sam - No, the Constitution is not a "living and breathing" document. That is merely a position taken by people, mostly on the Left, who do not like some particular portion of it. There is a way to change the Constitution. It is called an "amendment." And by the fact that this method exists, the "living and breathing" nonsense is proven wrong.

    Re: Owen and Rogers Brown to Trigger Nuclear Optio (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:37:46 PM EST
    Jim, You know exactly what I said. Don't play dumb. It doesn't become you, and it's dishonest.