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Minutemen End Patrols

by TChris

The vigilante* group known as the Minuteman Project is declaring victory and calling it quits, at least with regard to its central mission: hanging out in the desert and attempting to spot undocumented entrants who crossed the Mexican border. The mayor of Douglas, Arizona is less sanguine about the group's claim of success.

Ray Borane, the mayor of Douglas, said the effort had been "very superficial and clearly insincere." "It doesn't surprise me that they ended it," he said. "As soon as the media packed up and left, they left as well. All they accomplished was being a hindrance to the Border Patrol and creating international hard feelings. Their biggest accomplishment was getting the media's attention. It was, as the Mexicans say, all song and no opera."

But watch out-- the group's spokesman, Gray Deacon, warns that the Minuteman Project will return, putting "between 10,000 and 21,000 people on the border in all four Southwestern states" if the Bush administration fails to secure the border. The boastful estimate seems a bit puffed, given the "roughly 750 volunteers" presently on patrol.

*Note to the fellow who (via email) vaguely threatened a defamation suit for a prior post that termed the volunteers "vigilantes": do the volunteers plan to sue the president as well?

President Bush had called them vigilantes; human rights groups and some Arizona officials said they were racist and wrong-headed.

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    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:16:28 PM EST
    He can get over it. According to Webster's Unabridged, a vigilante a member of a vigilance committee:
    Function: noun
    : a volunteer committee of citizens for the oversight and protection of an interest; especially : a committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law appear inadequate) -- compare
    VIGILANTE "vigilance committee." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (21 April 2005).
    If he doesn't like the connotation of the definition that meets his own description of the group, well, tough. Have fun recovering lots of court costs from his nuisance suit. :-)

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:18:15 PM EST
    Did their efforts lead to any arrests?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#3)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:22:52 PM EST
    Or, in my opinion, more accurately did their efforts bring more attention to the issue they were addressing...I'd say that is a resounding yes.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:24:23 PM EST
    As soon as the VIGilantes when on TV to expouse themselves they became Public figures. Good luck suing anyone you idiots. I say this with no malice intended! :) I heard the real reason for their quiting was their rental horses had to be back for an upcoming Bat Mitzfa

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:36:20 PM EST
    Patrick wrote:
    Or, in my opinion, more accurately did their efforts bring more attention to the issue they were addressing...I'd say that is a resounding yes.
    It's true, many more people now know that there are some anti-immigration folks who feel that it is their God-given right to prove how stupid and bigoted they and some of their brethren are. I congratulate them for that: stupidity and arrogance know no bounds. Wenn Geld frei über Nationale Grenzen fliessen kann, dann natürlich müssen Menschen auch die Gleiche Freiheit haben. Kein Mensch ist illegal. Übrigens, ja, ich weiß ziemlich genau was das bedeutet. Vernichte alle Grenzen. Cheers, Alan Tomlinson

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:54:47 PM EST
    If publicity was the goal, I'd have to say they suceeded. However, I was curious if any illegal immigrants were detained specifically due to a minuteman tip. Were they serious about getting people locked up or was it just a publicity stunt that gave some dudes an excuse to miss work and sit in a lawnchair in the desert drinking beers?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:56:31 PM EST
    TChris, Being that "fellow" I must clarify that I didn't threaten to sue you. I didn't threaten you in any way whatsoever. I said that you should be sued although it was unlikely to happen. & I was just as hard (if not harsher) on Bush for his slander as I was for your libel. If you'll look at the definition that Matt so kindly provided (as I did in my post on your libelous statements) you'll see that summary punishment is a vital part of an accurate use of the word. Again I ask you to point out where exactly such summary punishment has occured or been advocated. You do discredit to all people who took any sort of action in defense of themselves or their country. & because of your attachment to using inaccurate but emotional provocative labels you do discredit to not only bloggers on the left side of life, but bloggers in general. I am not nor have I ever asked that you agree with their purpose. That's a seperate issue. What I have asked & continue to ask is that in your arguments against them you refrain from calling them "vigalantes" unless you can provide proof that the term is applicable. Is that so hard to do?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:56:56 PM EST
    I don't understand Alan's comments. What is bigoted about protecting one's borders? No examples given equals no argument. Is Alan in favor of unlimited immigration with no controls? What about the impact of such immigration in driving down wages for poorest of Americans?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:58:44 PM EST
    The way to stop illegal immigration is for the mexican people to rid the Mexican govt of elite bureaucrats and swindlers. It's been done. Now they want to privatize the oil industry in Mexico. This will do nothing to solve the immigration "problem". If you're sitting on a gold mine and you can't balance your checkbook, you shouldn't be in charge. But the corrupt thieves have a lock. The minutemen say we should stop it at the borders. IMHO that is a complete WOT. Speaking of which: Greenspan told lawmakers the U.S. federal budget was "on an unsustainable path" where big deficits push up interest rates and ever-increasing interest payments. Nice work monkey boy.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    if those guys are vigilantes, may I assume that every liberal protester against republican policy from here on out is also a vigilante? or is that moniker reserved only for dissenters you don't like?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:20:25 PM EST
    I thought the minutemen were protesting Republican policy? Republican pres., repub congress...hence repub. immigration policy.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:20:57 PM EST
    The vigilantes probably just ran out of beer money, and sun screen for their pale white hides.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:21:38 PM EST
    They must have run out of beer. Maybe next time these vigilantes will stock more brewskis. Or they could probably apply for some DHS grant to employ monkey vigilantes to patrol the border. They won't drink your beer and if they get frustrated or upset no one will care when they fling their feces on the mesa. Now if we can rig up some of these monkey vigilantes with remote computer-controlled gun-cameras we may be able to lick this dire problem which so threatens our great way of life.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:28:35 PM EST
    Again, not one poster has offered a coherent argument against protecting our borders. By contrast, comments about the "pale skin" of the "vigilantes" are racist. Please offer an explanation for why driving down the wages and job opportunities of the poorest American citizens is beneficial? Why is accomodating the corruption of the Mexican government a good thing?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:40:46 PM EST
    Eddie, Look at all the photos of the Homeguard. Vicious sunburns! My remark about the pale hides and sunscreen came from my own experience as a pale Nordic type. The "21,000" will need to come better prepared....and bring more beer. Also, I'm glad to see that you are apparently a supporter of Mexico City's mayor in his struggles to run for President of Mexico against W's buddy Fox.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:54:36 PM EST
    Bush is clearly on the wrong side on this one as is anyone thinking unfettered access to the country illegally is. These guys brought some attention to an area that needed attention and fixing.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ted on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:57:49 PM EST
    Hope they come back with a bigger group... the more attention the issue gets the better.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:15:07 PM EST
    There is a difference between anti-immigration and anti-illegal immigrations alan. I would think the progessive intellectuals would be able to see that.... I guess in your case I was wrong.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#19)
    by cp on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:37:55 PM EST
    frankly, they were publicity seeking morons: untrained, unlettered and ill-equipped to do the BP's job. the real surprise is that they didn't shoot one of their own. give them time. their presence accomplished, well.............nothing. ok, maybe the sales of red, white and blue beer went up in the towns they were near, but aside from that, nothing's changed, or is likely to, as long as fox and gw are buds. why should fox strain himself to improve conditions in mexico, when he knows he can dump off the excess poor people on his good bud, gw? twas ever thus. go after the employers, go after the mexican government. that will pretty much take of the problem of illegals on our southern border, all without firing a shot.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:54:47 PM EST
    If these redneck clowns really wanted to make a difference they would tackle the problem at the source by taking jobs as nannies and farm workers, etc. Rather than playing Wyatt Earp in order to stem the tide across the border, they could spend a few days changing the soiled diapers of upper crust scion or picking lettuce while getting a pesticide bath from a low flying plane. As for getting 21,000 of their fellow sympathizers to show up...good luck. These are the same species of worms that type on here in support of the Iraq occupation w/o ever thinking of getting within 5 time zones of a shooting war, just like their leader. Speaking of which, when it comes to a choice between cheap labor and the Klan, George is gonna sell out his redneck base every time in favor of his sponsor's wishes.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:36:25 PM EST
    End Patrol of the borders I am just starting the patrol, Ernesto Del Mundo, a guy for aztlan, and the mexican government who won't do anything for its own people, And who need to use that people for Recomnquista and for the political Refugee Industry and for the ideals of total evil, that is why Mundo hates the Minutemen and so many of you do to. see aztlan and the planed mass murder of millions of non hispanics, just like the National Socialist did, help the mexican people to remove that evil government that bush loves so much.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:51:19 PM EST
    Yes, I think borders should be open. Yes, that means pressure will be put on wages. Yes, that means your lifestyles would change rapidly. Yes, that's what I think is right. Yes, I think it's bigotry to assume that because someone was born at a certain place, or has certain parents one should not be allowed to live wherever they want to live. Yes, that means I disagree with probably the great majority of Americans. I can live with that. Some things are just right or wrong. Oh, by the way, that means all borders all over the world in case anyone wants to accuse me of being inconsistent. Cheers, Alan Tomlinson

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:24:08 PM EST
    Alan T: "It's true, many more people now know that there are some anti-immigration folks who feel that it is their God-given right to prove how stupid and bigoted they and some of their brethren are." I think you may be partially right on the anti immigration label since we all know there are xeno's and bigots out there, but have you considered the possibility that a large majority of us aren't anti immigration at all? We just don't like an uncontrolled flood of good people cutting in line in front of those who are trying to get here legally. I mean imagine yourself sitting all night outside a concert venue with $100 tickets in your hands that you paid for only to see the promoter come outside and yell "Free concert!!" You'd be ticked off too. Then you make it inside to find out they gave away all the snacks and drinks to the free loaders. Look at the hospitals in LA county falling like domino's. Anti immigrant? Heck no. I just don't like people who take advantage of and cheat the system. If you call that anti immigrant, you are mistaken and it smacks of something from another political belief.. Have a great day..Peace.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:47:57 PM EST
    Alan, my heart's with you. I agree. That's the most "natural" solution. But then what happens.? People migrate to resources and suddenly the Globe's a big game of musical chairs. To expect the people near the resources (or with access to them as "near" and "access" are different measures of success in this case) to artificially distribute them to people who don't have them is just plain untenable I don't see it no matter how religious/theocratic you can make people. Additionally an unchangeable human fact is that the people who control the resources physically are those who are protecting said resources and therefore protecting those who benefit from those resources (think water, land, oil). So, borders happen. And they prevent migration to a point. But there is no way no how IMHO that you can CRIMINALIZE people who are bound by both the laws of nature and of supply and demand to migrate towards the resources. I can assure all of you that if I was 20 miles from the American border and had a crappy fu**ing life I'd give it a shot. However, take a minute and think about what it would be like to show up somewhere with your family; no ID, no job, no $$, no place to live, can't speak the language and no friends. Our stupid bickering about Democrats and republicans, gays and communion, Terry Shiavo and the Pope must seem ridiculous. Everyone of us is living in the top 5 or 10% of priviliged people in the world just by virtue of having the time, education and access to comment here. Two questions: 1. Why did the only force mounted to bolster/protest our dismal homeland security effforts focus on immigration? For example, why didn't people feel compelled to patrol resevoirs, dams, chemical and nuclear facilities as the government has completely FAILED to secure our country. Or perhaps assist with cargo screening at ports? Second question? Why oh why can't we secure our borders. Did I miss something in history? I thought that is the most basic, important and urgent task of anyone defending any property. What if the National Guard had been deployed to secure our own country? Okay that's a third question. Just something to think about

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:52:39 PM EST
    Hey, I worked with a Mexican worker a couple of years ago. He said that people from South America work their way up to Mexico City and then onto Los Angeles. It isn't just Mexicano citizens coming through in droves. They're from all over South America. Quit working so all the illegal immigrants can have a job and you don't. Then go get a job. The Barbarians are inside the gates. There is a homeless population in Denver of some 9,000 on a daily basis. Welcome to the real world. At one time, it didn't matter because everybody was the same. My grandmother live in a three room bungalow with no plumbing until the day she died. Now, every American wants 10 foot ceilings inside their villa on the mountain top and a kitchen staff. You have got to get real. Just because the market is at 10,000 means absolutely nothing. There is a depression going on out there. Lots of money in the hands of a few and they're not going to let go of any of it. Open your eyes and quit watching the propaganda on tv. Can you say duped. Athletes that are making millions of dollars per year don't care how you get your daily bread.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:53:39 PM EST
    Hey, I worked with a Mexican worker a couple of years ago. He said that people from South America work their way up to Mexico City and then onto Los Angeles. It isn't just Mexicano citizens coming through in droves. They're from all over South America. Quit working so all the illegal immigrants can have a job and you don't. Then go get a job. The Barbarians are inside the gates. There is a homeless population in Denver of some 9,000 on a daily basis. Welcome to the real world. At one time, it didn't matter because everybody was the same. My grandmother lived in a three room bungalow with no plumbing until the day she died. Now, every American wants 10 foot ceilings inside their villa on the mountain top and a kitchen staff. You have got to get real. Just because the market is at 10,000 means absolutely nothing. There is a depression going on out there. Lots of money in the hands of a few and they're not going to let go of any of it. Open your eyes and quit watching the propaganda on tv. Can you say duped. Athletes that are making millions of dollars per year don't care how you get your daily bread.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:56:16 PM EST
    Patrick - I can't believe I'm saying it but I agree with your point in asking about the effect of the protest. Giving these guys the benefit of the doubt they were hoping for a momentum that would translate into action. And did it. Not as far as I can tell. The government did jacksh*t about it and most folks remain uninspired. (I thinkit was the beach chairs personally). Don't get me wrong. I'm all for guest workers. It would be an unbelievable change in the family life of these folks and is the Christian thing to do. On the other hand, you should call your legislators and ask them "Why aren't our borders secure??"

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:01:59 PM EST
    mfox...I have a partial answer to your third question. Most of our National Guard (composed of lots of Mexicans) are stuck in Iraq, and therefore unable to keep more Mexicans out of the U.S.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:05:31 PM EST
    My grandmother live in a three room bungalow with no plumbing until the day she died. Now, every American wants 10 foot ceilings inside their villa on the mountain top and a kitchen staff.
    Don't romanticize this however, notdumb. Living like that wasn't fun. Women had to tie their toddlers to radiators and leave them to go to work. Other women miscarried their whole lives because of fieldwork. Go to any rural turn-of-the-century graveyard and see how many women died in their twenties and thirties. That's why my grandfather and lots of yours out there suffered and sacrificed greatly to unionize. There's lots of gray area between no indoor plumbing and 10 foot ceilings - I think it includes most of us. The things I'm fighting for politically are things a little more visceral - like the right to privacy, justice, medical care and not having to collect bottles from trash cans when I get old.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:07:36 PM EST
    Ernesto... can't we just send them directly from Mexico to Iraq? (hoping Rove/Rumsfeld/Bush/Cheney aren't on TL 2nite)

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:08:49 PM EST
    Once again my Anglo-Uberpatriots, the most effective solution to keeping the brown-skinned lower life forms out of the U.S. is to get out there and do the jobs that they come here to do. Leaf-blower, anyone?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:14:52 PM EST
    mfox...that may have been a joke about sending them directly, but Uncle Sam is already several goose steps ahead of you. Quote:
    Thanks to a close working relationship between the Defense Department and the new Department of Homeland Security, this process is now on the fast track – with a goal of presenting an official certificate granting that citizenship at the service member's funeral. And with new provisions in the fiscal 2004 National Defense Authorization Act, the citizenship is no longer simply honorary. It now includes tangible benefits to the deceased service member's spouse, children and parents who hope to gain U.S. citizenship.
    Lovely, huh?

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:15:20 PM EST
    Ernesto, they're creating a worker vacuum so all the children left behind by the abandonment of public education as well as what's left of the middle class will have jobs when they finally pull their (collective LOL) d*cks out of our butts.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:23:35 PM EST
    mfox- maybe, but it was better than living on a farm near Odessa, Russia and being dealt a bad hand by the Bolsheviks. It was better to be a settler on a homestead in America.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:24:54 PM EST
    Ernesto as I read that this feeling came over me about what it was going to say and then I thought, No. And then I kept reading and must confess my jaw just about dropped to the floor. A lot of people would take that chance. I'd do it for my kid in a New York second if I thought I could give him that better life. I have the same feeling that the cyber-hunting post gave me. Ugghhh. BTW - I personally apologize for the racism perpetrated on and perpetuated by our government and white people everywhere. I've had to work very hard for years and years to shake my brain of a unbelievably racist subconscious that for a long time I didn't even know existed. i've been privy to conversations between fine, upstanding white people that I would not be able to repeat in the face of a non white person of any nationality. I have girlfriends that LOVE flirting with and teasing black guys but would never ever sleep with one. They usually preface any comments on race by mentioning that they're not racist. Just for the record... (sorry, TL :) )

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:30:19 PM EST
    Ahhh not dumb. So she migrated towards more safety and better resouorces : ) We all should stop kvetching about Nazis here and look at the horrible things that happened in Russia. Really really tragic. Or better yet, look at both as the far right and the far left realized by violent means.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:35:42 PM EST
    I'd say it was a resounding success. Now we know that Vicente Fox, George Bush, and most of the left are all on the same side, loosely allied against 80% of Americans. They showed that the borders can be controlled if you want to do it: if thousands weren't detained by the Border Patrol that was because there were tens of thousands that decided not to cross or were told to cross somewhere else by Mexico. And, a large segment of the news media has been shown to be hopelessly biased liars. And, the ACLU has been discredited over and over. Yeah, I'd say it was a success.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 01:19:00 AM EST
    "Posted by James Robertson: "if those guys are vigilantes, may I assume that every liberal protester against republican policy from here on out is also a vigilante?" What a stupid assumption. They are ARMED. Check off another IQ point or two--downward. "Posted by mfox: "On the other hand, you should call your legislators and ask them "Why aren't our borders secure??" What a waste of time. Bush just approved the unlimited use of US highways by tens of thousands of Mexican semitrucks, with the intention of inspecting 1 in 20. ANYTHING worth bringing into the US -- bombs, drugs, people, currency, contraband, regulated animals and plants, ANYTHING -- can be in those semtrucks to your door, or your cornfield, or down the street from your factory, under Bush's very generous NAFTA policy. That you people want to attack the people side is in fact bigotry. The effects of those semitrucks, with uninspected brakes, untested drivers, careening around and breaking down on the highways is going to be one big horrible nightmare -- but instead, you want to make the little people have to hunch down even more, instead of giving them a tiny bit of self-respect for a job done for others for very little.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 09:53:57 AM EST
    "[TChris,] because of your attachment to using inaccurate but emotional provocative labels you do discredit to not only bloggers on the left side of life, but bloggers in general." True words, TChris, I hope you're listening. So many of your threads get 'hijacked' by folks revealing the falsity of your words while the fundamental point of your (often worthwhile) thread goes unrecognized. You are your own worst enemy.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 12:34:33 PM EST
    I would like to see the numbers or some analysis of the efficacy of their presence. No trouble was caused by them and they did receive a ton of national press. I don't agree with their politics but good for them, great idea to bring the issue into a greater light.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 02:40:10 PM EST
    Yeah, JL, nothing like a Klan Rally to get the rightwing press hopping. Good to know these gun-nuts can get a .50 cal sniper rifle that can shoot down airliners all day, for just a couple of bucks a bullet. How about some press on that? No...don't want to make NRA MEMBERS LIKE OSAMA BIN LADEN unhappy.

    Re: Minutemen End Patrols (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 03:22:47 PM EST
    Paul, Know what it'd take to shoot down an airplane? Let's say you're fairly close (2,000 yard away). Let's say the plane is traveling fairly slow (175 mph). Let's also assume that it's traveling perpindicular to your position & you have no crosswind to deal with. The lead (the amount in front of the plane you have to aim) would be measured in yards - several hundred of them. & if you're off by more than a foot or two you'll miss (can you judge a foot or even a yard accurately at 800 yards, let alone 2,000?). The hold off (the amount above the plane you'd have to aim) would also be measured in yards (less than the lead be still no easy task as you couldn't be off by more than a few inches). All that to put one bullet measuring a half of an inch & weighing about 800 grains somewhere into the plane. The effect assuming you made the one in a billion shot? A half inch hole in the plane. Nothing more. No explosive decompression, no fireball. Not even a shift in the plane's attitude. Just a hole. A very small hole. & that's assumign someone can mkae & is willing ot try this not impossible but highly improbable feat of shooting skill. You have no idea (from your statement) of what kind of skill it takes to hit a staionary object at any great distance. Moving ones are nigh impossible. If I recall Cali hasn't banned shotguns (yet). Go to a skeet or sporting clays shoot & you'll see how tricky it is. & keep in mind that A: the shotguns throw out a pattern of pellets & B: the clays are only moving at about 40 mph. Oh, & that couple of bucks a bullet - that's after you spend a few thousand on a .50 - well assuming you live in a non-hoplophobic state that hasn't banned them. Now multiply that couple of bucks by about 10,000 which is the amount of practice in a very short time you'd need to even think about making such a shot as you seem terrified of. Much cheaper to smuggle in some box cutters isn't it? Especially because the hoplophobes in power have seen fit to disarm folks with no harmful intent (despite constitutional prohibitions against such). So before you go hurling suppositions around about us gun nuts & the tools we use, try talking to one to see if your charge has any merit. As for OBL being an NRA member - I can't wait to hear this one. Oh, & last time I checked - being armed had nothing to do with defining a vigilante. It has to do with summary punishment & judgement contrary to law. JR's point was that TChris' accusations of vigilantism were unfounded as they'd also apply to other law abiding protestors.