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Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 07:59:42 PM EST
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Enlightenment from our northern neighbor.

Canada's House of Commons voted today to legalize gay marriage, passing landmark legislation that would grant all same-sex couples in Canada the same legal rights as those in traditional unions between a man and a woman.

The bill passed as expected, despite opposition from Conservatives and religious leaders. The legislation drafted by Prime Minister Paul Martin's minority Liberal Party government was also expected to easily pass through the Senate and become federal law by the end of July.

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    Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage | 44 comments (44 topical)
    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#1)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:40 PM EST
    1) "Marriage" is a church thing and should be decided by each individual church. 2) A contract (whether kids, dying wishes, property ... etc) should be recorded by the state, w/o exceptions.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    hee hee Bet it burns the a$$es of the wrong wingers when Canada doesn't split off the continent and slip into the icy waters of the Arctic due to God's wrath...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    This may be the only way to get Bush to take border security seriously.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    So far I know of 3 Canadians who've lost their jobs for expressing their opposition to gay marriage: a publisher who refused to take a contract, a teacher who wrote a letter to the editor from his home (on his own time) and a cabinet minister who voted according to the wishes of his constituents. I also know of one church official who has been warned not to continue expressing his church's position on the matter unless he wants to face criminal charges...and these incidents are before the law has even been ratified... You think this is enlightenment? You know that FIRST AMENDMENT thing you people have down there? Freedom of religion, followed by freedom of speech? If you love those particular freedoms, enlighten yourself by reading more than a headline about what is happening here in Canada. Sailor is exactly right; contracts should be administered by government without regard to sexual orientation, whereas marriage is a religious thing. The government has just stepped into religious territory, and we're already seeing the jackboot being applied to peoples' necks. What a sadly thoughtless comment from Ms. Merritt.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    grad student,
    The government has just stepped into religious territory, and we're already seeing the jackboot being applied to peoples' necks.
    I know even less about Canadian law than about American, but I suspect the government was already in religious territory by saying who can and can't get married. Can incestuous couples marry in Canada? If marriage has any legal meaning at all (do Canadians file joint tax returns, or inherit their spouses' belongings by default?) then treading into religious territory is unavoidable. If dissent is being crushed, then that's a problem that needs to be solved. It's also rather (not entirely) separate from the issue of whether to allow people to marry. I'll assume Canadian anti-incest are not accompanied by quelling free expression on the subject, which shows it can be done.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#6)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    You personally know these people? Would you care to offer up some proof that they exist and that they were fired because they opposed equal marriage? You also exhibit a basic misunderstanding of the first amendment. Read the amendment, and then come back and explain how it would apply in any of the three cases that you brought up.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#7)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    And don't make me get medieval on you for suggesting that TalkLeft is thoughtless. She's one of the most thoughtful people I know!

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#8)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Sailor, Your libertarian principles are admirable. And I agree with them. Well said. [and for what it's worth in this case, I'm a Canadian, too, so these decisions are close to home.]

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    So those "married" at a City Hall aren't really "married" because it wasn't in a church? Can't get a recognized marriage in a church without some gov. official's stamp of approval, so I don't think they overstepped at all. Canada just helped to upset the stupid prejudices that pervade most dark-age religious mentalities.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Don't worry any strained relations can be quickly cleared up by Ambassador Wilkins, one of Bushs' top cronies.
    Rporter: Have you ever been to Canada before? Wilkins: Ah, many years ago when I was in the Army stationed in Indiana my wife and I visited Canada. AIH: Oh yes, where did you go? Wilkins: Eh, it was, uh, around the uh, the falls area, Niagara Falls, back up in there round uh that area as well as uh going I guess back toward, back West toward , toward Indiana, well obviously above Indiana but I'd have to get out a map to tell you all, it's been thirty-something years now since we were there but we enjoyed our visit and we cannot wait to get back.


    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Blagh's havin' Canadian Bacon and Waffles with Maple Syrup for breakfast (throw in some sausage rounds, Blaghdaddy loves his meat)... Bacon, Syrup, B.C. Highgrade ... Blaghdaddy has never been prouder to be Canadian than on this morning. To all gay and lesbian couples in Canada...congrats...now you can desecrate marriage the way hetero's have been doing since the word came into being... Welcome to the Club!! (and don't worry about those people leaving, they were going to anyways...)

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    By the way, people, "Marriage" is not a religious word...or do you think that only "religious" people have married throughout human history? That's the stupidest thing Blaghdaddy's ever read on this site, especially since we all know that "common-law marriage" is a f#cking marriage in the eyes of the law and has nothing to do with religion... How about a marriage performed by a Ship's Captain or a Justice of the Peace? "Marriage" is a Religious Term? Nice try, but that was really weak, guys...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Marriage is a "church thing"? I'd better tell that to some of my married friends who don't even know what the inside of a church looks like! I've never heard that one before.

    Good job, Canada. Isn't enlightenment a wonderful thing?

    Doggone it, Blaghdaddy. Now you've gone and made me hungry! Man, do I love waffles!

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Great! Now, in months and years to come, there will most likely be a "shining city on the hill" showing the fundies and wrong-wringers that all of their hysteria about the fall of civilization being tied to gay marriage, is nothing more than a divisive political tactic, devoid of any real meaning. Of course, many of us know that already, but it's always nice to have empirical evidence.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    It's only a matter of time before this hits America....let's see, Blagh remembers using his bank card to make purchases at stores back in '89...aren't you guys just discovering "check cards" now, or just recently? Fifteen years, you'll be there too...so hang on, guys and gals and guy/gals... Won't be long.... - - - - - Hey cheetah, have you ever had ribs with maple syrup? They're to die for... Get your favorite BBQ sauce or make your own, and then drizzle a good dollop of pure Canadian maple syrup into it and stir it together...let the sauce get nice and thick before you slap them on the grill... What you'll get is your favorite sauce, but sweeter and gummy as all get out... Blagh had those for dinner last night...mmm mmm good!!

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Marriage is not a religious term. If you look it up in a dictionary, you'll find it has nothing to do with religion. In fact, you'll see the words, "Legal union." And on a side note: For those of us who are actually Christians, we are angry at the hypocrisy of the "religious right" when they use God to argue their cause against gay marriage. If you're going to make people miserable by forcing them to obey every word in the Bible, you have to actually do it. Therefore: 1) Divorce should become illegal 2)Men should be forced to marry virgins only 3)Women on their period should be forbidden from touching anything. (I could go on forever) So, if the "religious right" can't follow all of "God's word," then they shouldn't force others to. Esp. since the Bible also condemns hypocrisy! This is why it bugs me when people refer to the gay marriage as a religious issue. It's not. It's a pure political issue. It's just that Republicans are using God for their own political gains. And the "Christians" in this world who don't know much about Christianity or the Bible fall for it...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#17)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    I am normally proud to be Canadian, but today I'm even a little prouder. The religious argument against gays marrying and having exactly the same rights as heterosexual married couples is that, well, they think it's wrong and therefore everyone should behave accordingly. Religous authoritarians just don't get it. The idea is simple: Practice your religion, live according to your principles, but recognize they are not universal, and other people have exactly the same right to live according to their principles. It's just common sense. The Prime Minister commented yesterday that Canada is a nation of minorities and that you can't cherry-pick rights. And he's absolutely right.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#18)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Yeah, Canada's done some stuff very right lately. If they'd just let people carry small handguns, I might be tempted to move up there. It's freaking hot in Texas.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#19)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    et al - As someone who has previously commented that he doesn't care if John weds Bill... Government should not bother, except to enforce contracts, and contracts should exist, even for Jane marying Tom, and I have expressed this to my congress people. If Grad Student has some links regarding his comments, they would be welcome, if for no other reason than to again demonstrate that PC activities are slippery slopes to suppression of someone else's rights. I guess that some "hate speech" law was violated. Grad Student? When you come to religion and marriage, some religions don't recognize the marriage of church members unless it is performed in the church, and blessed by the church. That is their right, and they have the right to not perform marriages and to not bless them. So I find Grad Student's comment about the warning to the church offical very disturbing. If a government can tell the church what not to say, it is well on its way to real suppression.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    PPJ will probably change his stance after Blaghdaddy agrees with him, but PPJ has a point: The right of gays to marry shouldn't extend to forcing religious institutions to either perform or recognise their marriages... That's why Muslim can foreswear pork and we can eat it to our hearts' delight...Freedom... So, no, no one should be forced to "accept" a gay marriage if their religion forbids it...that said, they need to get their noses out of other peoples' business and tend their own choked gardens...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Who said anything about the religious institutions being forced to accept them? Is that in the argument some where? Churches are the most unregulated industry in the US and that will never change. When I was getting married we aksed the town mayor if he would be interested in doing the service, when he sent us the itinerary and we refused all of the religious speak in the service, he said that he could not perform the service without jesus. We happily had a justice of the peace administer our vows. Is my marriage any less recognizable or legitimate because there were no inferences to religion? We didn't feel discriminated against however, we felt he was merely taking a stand for his values on his interpretation of the sanctity of marriage. I guess if I were a gay christian and the pastor refused to marry me it might be different but I cannot ever see this gov't (dem or rep) ever chartering into those waters.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    Prime Minister Paul Martin said the legislation was a necessary step for human rights because in his words: "We are a nation of minorities. And in a nation of minorities, it is important that you don't cherry-pick rights." And essentially that is what is comes down to: equal rights for all. In my country south of the border, equal rights for this minority are labeled as "special rights". In America today it has become the tyranny of the majority over the rights of a small minority because what they do makes the majority uncomfortable. REAL democracies are NOT simply based on the tyranny of the majority. Hitler was put into office in a democracy. The majority of the population supported him initially. In the American South in the 1960s the majority wanted to keep Jim Crow laws in place although they violated the rights of the black minority. We must not forget that. And while I am on the subject, Bush in his speech to the American people tonight encouraged patriotic Americans to join up in the military to fight the "war on terror" --as long as you are not gay. The US military has dismissed (fired) several Arabic specialists because they were gay. Isn't that crazy at a time when they are in such need of such specialists? I would just like to take this opportunity to thank those Canadian politicians for showing such a good example for us down here to hopefully one day follow.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:41 PM EST
    You know, on second thought, gays Shouldn't Be "Allowed" to Marry... I don't know what I was thinking...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#24)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    Grad Student, Show me one instance of a church being forced to marry a gay couple and I'll agree with you. Until then, go back under your rock.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#25)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    grad student,
    and a cabinet minister who voted according to the wishes of his constituents.
    Do you mean Joe Comuzzi? You must, if this is true:
    Although he was the only cabinet minister to break ranks with Prime Minister Paul Martin over the controversial plan....
    He resigned. It's not like an official got fired for expressing an unpopular view or failing to be a yes-man. Especially if this can be taken at face value:
    Cabinet ministers are required to support government legislation, and face expulsion from the ministry for breaking ranks.
    Do you otherwise fine Canadians just have a quirky system that tells ministers how to vote?

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    It's very silly, actually, and this is the tradition: If you are a certain party member and a vote comes up on legislation, you are expected to vote the party line... So going against the party on a legislative issue that could topple the government (imagine if the U.S. gov't fell every time the Congress or Senate over-rode a Presidential veto, and you've got the same concept)is grounds for expulsion from the party... It's actually quite fair- if you're going to oppose the Prime Minister on his legislative agenda, and you choose to vote against it (and possibly bring down the gov't if it doesn't pass), then you probably shouldn't be calling yourself a member of that party... It works for us...and has to, or our gov't would fall every six months...if you belong to that party, you vote the party line or go sit with another party or as an independent... No one strips the member of their seat in Parliament, and when you think of it, you were elected on a party platform and if you oppose that same platform, you're going against your constituents' wishes when they voted you into that seat as a member of that party... Make any sense?

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    blag, about as much sense as ours does;-) Actually I prefer parlimentary multi party systems that make elected officials compromise and form coalitions to be able to advance their agenda. It seems more of the populace gets represented than a 2 party system.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    Well, there's not much diversity anymore in Canadian politics...it's mostly center, left-of-center and far-left... The Conservative Party hasn't been a factor since P.M. Brian Mulroney took his party from a record-majority win in '88 to the party losing most of its seats and its official party status in the '93 election...it's been a long, hard journey back from the wilderness for Canada's Conservatives.... Made harder by the fact that Quebec conservatives now vote for the separatist "Bloc Quebecois" party, a regional power in French Quebec, which gives Quebec enormous clout in Parliament but little say in national discourse... Then you have the Western Conservatives (formerly the break-away Reform Party) who came back to the Conservative Party after helping demolish it, and all the Conservative infighting now is the old Cons trying to keep the New Old Cons (ex-Reformers) from taking over the party... It's a real mess, and thank God the default Government in Canada will always be a liberal one.... Helps Blagh sleep a lot easier...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    For those who responded with anti-religious bigotry, you are part of the problem. For the majority who responded with honest questions and disagreements, respondeo. Religious thing? In Canada the decision was between "Civil Unions" and "Marriage" for homosexual couples, not marriage vs. nothing. What's the difference, you ask? Exactly what the terms imply: a union for civil purposes, as opposed to a union encompassing both civil and religious connotation. This is what I meant by saying that 'marriage' is a religious thing; not that there aren't non-religious marriages, but that in Canada the debate was precisely between a secular recognizance of gay couples vs. a secular AND religious recognizance. By forcing the latter, the government moved into the religious sphere. Problem So we now have a problem: churches that ordinarily ratify marriages may not be able, according to their religion, to ratify homosexual marriages. Since the issue has been cast as one of 'human rights', as though everyone has the inalienable right to marry their lover, churches suddenly become discriminatory....which is a hate crime....which leads to the imprisonment of those who profess certain religions....which means goodbye freedom of religion. Kapiche? Cabinet Minister About the cabinet minister, yes I was referring to Comuzzi. Short course on Canadian parliament: cabinet ministers are generally expected to vote party lines except on matters of conscience. In this matter of conscience ministers were refused that right, and so Comuzzi was forced to resign. Not good. As for Blaghdaddy's ignorant post, this was not a matter that could topple the government, a so-called 'confidence' motion, and since CBC has been reporting on that fact ad nauseam I suspect even Blaghdaddy was aware of it when he posted the contrary claim. More info on other cases: check out the UN Regarding the other three cases I mentioned: the publisher is Scott Brockie, the teacher is Chris Kempling, and the official is Bishop Henry in Calgary. Googling any or all of these with 'marriage' or 'homosexual' will get you all the info you want. Chris Kempling was asked to address the UN last year concerning the erosion of religious freedom in Canada. You can find that address on google too - he describes his own case as well as several other interesting ones, such as the descriptions of the Bible as hate speech by federal cabinet ministers, the court case regarding a christian group that refused to allow a gay marriage in their building, etc. Read, think, learn Learn from the mistakes of your northern neighbor. We are engaging in an exhilerating battle for religious and speech freedom; in the next year we will either see this law repealed, or religious leaders being taken to court for their beliefs. I stand by my comment. Ms. Merritt's remark that this is 'enlightenment' was thoughtless: there's more to this if you spend 30 seconds googling and thinking. A few posters here reinforced that thoughtlessness. To the rest of you, thanks for a good discussion.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    RE: Kempling. First of all the school is a public institution and does not fall under the same scrutiny of the church and your attempt to link the two is disingenuous at best. You say he sent one letter, google for yourself and see how many letters he wrote and the constant discriminatory crap he was espousing. From the courts: "The court," said Elliott Myers, the association's legal counsel, in a news release, "sent a clear message today that a teacher can not expect to use a free speech defense when he makes public and discriminatory statements in his professional capacity in a way that would undermine the values our public schools must teach students -- respect for diversity and equality -- and in a way that would effectively prevent him from doing his job." Interviewed in July, when the case was being argued, Myers said that Kempling's "clear intention" to act in a discriminatory manner was enough to justify censuring him. If a school teacher was saying the same things about interracial marriages they would most likely be summarily fired. The right to free speech has limitations in public institutions and this is a case where the application was just. Gay students and interracial couples should not have to tolerate discrimination in a public institution. The same argument would and could be made if a teacher was openly castigating christians and influencing discrimination against them. In the case of Scott Brockie, I am all for the right to free enterprise and find the decision perplexing. If he refused a klansmen mehtinks the outrage might have been targeted toward the klansmen, however if he refused a black person on the ground that he does not advocate equal rights perhaps the matter would be easier to palate. It is discrmination but the free market enterprise again makes the decision on how to legislate. As for the Bishop, he has not been brought up on charges and your surmising that he may is again scare tactics. The tribunal will take any case from what i read and it will only set precedent. It will be thrown out. I see now why you asked people to google, you figured no one would actually do it. When making an argument try to at least incorporate a portion of the real story.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#31)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    Ah, now I remember why my family didn't move to Canada. Y'all let your government bloat 'til it took over waaaay too much of your lives. Sounds like the Canadian government is cramming some people's morality down others' throats, something various TL posters complain about when American conservatives do it. Canadian "hate" law is severely messed up. If TL didn't know that its a part of the gay marriage machine, then I think it's fair to call her "thoughtless" on this one, or perhaps just uncharacteristically incomplete in her research(*). If she did know, she's a hypocrit. (*) I, however, did basically no research. Thanks, grad student, for pointing to the big picture.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#32)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    JL writes
    The right to free speech has limitations in public institutions
    May I call up Ward Churchill and tell him that? Didn't you defend him under "free speech?"

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#33)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Jim, I'm starting to think waaay to much like you for my own comfort. I already checked the archives and Jlvngstn didn't have much to say about Churchill.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    roy, last time Blaghdaddy checked, Canada's "bloated" government wasn't illegally occupying another country after an illegal war cooked up with bogus intel... Blaghdaddy will compare his government with yours if you want to take potshots...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#35)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Canada's "bloated" government wasn't illegally occupying another country after an illegal war cooked up with bogus intel...
    I should clarify. Canadian bloat unjustly intrudes into Canadian lives in a way that I think would grate on me, whereas American bloat unjustly intrudes into American lives in a way that grates mostly people who aren't me. I'd rather not debate American vs. Canadian foreign policy because I don't like losing.
    Blaghdaddy will compare his government with yours if you want to take potshots...
    Then by all means, head over to the open thread and vindicate your people.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    PPJ: When free speech becomes discriminatory against a class of people in a public institution, it crosses the line of free speech. Funny how you cowardly do not address the scenarios above. Secondly, Ward Churchill did not discriminate in his speech. Thirdly, I did not defend Ward Churchill to my recollection.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    ppj for a guy that more than 30 posts on churchill you are awfully quiet on this one. You are a FRAUD. When it comes to dissidence, in particular against your views, you cannot keep your mouth shut. When it is in 'support" of your views as you allege to support gay marriage you fall silent on protesting the person's discriminatory statements. Funny that your arguments would go that route.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Since you admit you'd lose that debate, roy, there is no need to got to the Open Thread to "vindicate" anyone. Blaghdaddy has never claimed that his country has the best government in the world, but to hear an American made snide remarks about Canadian government was really too rich... That's all Blagh was saying...he wasn't trying to start a cross-border war of words...just remember who's watching and reading when you deride other countries' ways of doing things...they sometimes answer back and call attention to your own hypocrisy...

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    P.S. None of the 3 lost their jobs Grad Student, let's make certain the facts are not exaggerated in the posts. PPJ: Free speech is often defended as anyone can say anything. This is not true. The government cannot use prior restrant. Private companies can. We can debate forever the status of a state university, but remember this. At the end of the day it is owned by the taxpayers. Make them mad enough and you will see changes. Most of which you won't like. This is one of the many posts you had in the Churchill topic. Funny, I see none of the same in fighting against discrimination. Dissent I support, discrimination I do not.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#40)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    JL - Nonsense is nonsense and you are full of it. I posted above, and I posted in the past. The gay rights issue doesn't get a lot of play because we are all mostly in agreement on the subject. My comment was, and is, that Canada's hate speech law apparently has some serious flaws if it can tell church people what to say, off duty teachers what to say, etc. But your comment does reveal one thing. You believe Churchill had the right to say what he said, as a teacher in a public university, whereas you don't think the Canadain teacher did because of the subject. I think that is censorship. And I think you know it. And I think you will defend my right to agree with you, but not my right to disagree.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Jim: Your comment stated none of what your last comment iterates. You had lots of opinion on Churchill and relative to dissent of your politics, you had nothing to say on discrimination and the professors right to discriminate under the free speech banner. Your hypocrisy is blatant and your attempt to obfuscate painful to watch. You obvioulsy did not read my post. Here is your comment: JL writes The right to free speech has limitations in public institutions May I call up Ward Churchill and tell him that? Didn't you defend him under "free speech?" Here is your second comment: My comment was, and is, that Canada's hate speech law apparently has some serious flaws if it can tell church people what to say, off duty teachers what to say, etc. No where else did you post this on this thread, so please on occasion demonstrate a hair of honesty and consistency. And yes, I do believe that dissent is acceptable and discrimination is not. You on the other hand are ok with discrimination and against dissent. One might call your views intolerant, I would agree.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Lastly, you saw fit to post more than 30 times on the Churchill situation, NONE here until you challenged me and made a false allegation regarding me posting on the churchill topic. I think that this speaks for itself in identifying your intellectual dishonesty and where your politics belie. [name calling deleted. No personal attacks on other commenters please]

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Please stay on the topic of Canada legalizing gay marriage. The topic is not Ward Churchill and free speech. Off topic comments will be deleted.

    Re: Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#44)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:44 PM EST
    Following the thread of how we got to the position of Mr. Churchill it seems that it is correlative, but being that Jim brought it up and had 30+ comments on the lack of rights in public institutions, I find it only fair to demonstrate the hypocrisy and bigotry of his statement. This website has a running log and that is what makes it great. Posters can take a side of an argument and argue it diligently. It should not be considered unfair to call a hypocrite out when their position changes so radically on parallel positions. In this case, one involves dissent the other discrimination, and PPJ's previous statements either make him a hypocrite or a liar. Is that name calling? Or should I simply post the hypocrisy and statements in conflict and let the other readers decide?

    Canada Legalizes Gay Marriage | 44 comments (44 topical)