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FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:15:15 PM EST
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The FBI has been collecting files on civil liberties groups and anti-war protesters.

"I'm still somewhat shocked by the size of the file on us," said Anthony D. Romero, executive director of the A.C.L.U. "Why would the F.B.I. collect almost 1,200 pages on a civil rights organization engaged in lawful activity? What justification could there be, other than political surveillance of lawful First Amendment activities?"

The Government's excuse?

...they stressed that as a matter of both policy and practice, they have not sought to monitor the political activities of any activist groups and that any intelligence-gathering activities related to political protests are intended to prevent disruptive and criminal activity at demonstrations, not to quell free speech. They said there might be an innocuous explanation for the large volume of files on the A.C.L.U. and Greenpeace, like preserving requests from or complaints about the groups in agency files.

We'll be waiting for that innocuous explanation. WaPo has more on groups that were monitored during the Republican and Democratic conventions:

FBI agents monitored Web sites calling for protests against the 2004 political conventions in New York and Boston on behalf of the bureau's counterterrorism unit, according to FBI documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.

"It's one thing to monitor protests and protest organizers, but quite another thing to refer them to your counterterrorism unit," said Leslie Cagan, national coordinator for United for Peace and Justice.

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    FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#1)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    Officials have said agents adhere strictly to Justice Department guidelines requiring evidence of criminal activity or indications that a person may know something about a crime.
    Liars.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    The great thing about FBI chiefs is that they can swap women's underwear with the president's staff. Because "prevent[ing] disruptive... activity at demonstrations" is stressful. Protests of genocide, treason, and conspiracy to profit from the blood of our soldiers make hardworking, blinkered, male FBI agents want to go home and wear bras. The book 'Separated at Birth' shows the uncanny and horrifying identity of the first FBI chief, who died but then made a triumphal return as the 'wife' of GHW Bush. Who is still not bothering her "beautiful" mind about the brown people her family is slaughtering.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#3)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    Is the FBI taking its cues from the Denver Police Department?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    Gee, coincidence #7398217398217921 of the Bush Administration.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    No wonder it took the full six weeks to get my new passport recently... I'm a "card carrying member" of the ACLU and used to work for Greenpeace. Nahhh they wouldn't take the time looking me over, just another person in search of democracy in a world where terrorists hide under every bed...or is that Reds?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#6)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    et al - You would think after the Clinton administration's problems with FBI files they would know better. Oh well, maybe they didn't get more than 1100, all Demos of course and, hopefully, the FBI agents who did it will be able to remember who hired them. ;-)

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    That the FBI is spying on U.S. citizens again should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied their history, which includes the whole story of COINTELPRO and other abuses. One need look no further for proof that the FBI never stopped spying on activists than the Judi Bari case. The FBI, as America's political police, has simply learned in these modern times how to keep their activites much more under wraps. As a taxpayer, it infuriates me that this is what my money is getting spent on.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Welcome to Richard Nixon's America.

    Times ten.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#9)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Cheetah, It wasn't Nixon who set the FBI spying on MLK. Bobby Kennedy was running the Justice Department when that happened and his brother Jack was president. Which is not to excuse the fact that it is still happening now. Quite the opposite. I would have hoped that the embarassment of such activities getting out would have put a stop to it where there is no valid reason to believe real criminal activity it taking place, but it seems that no administration can resist using the power at its fingertips to keep tabs on other people. One thing that is oddly missing from this item is when it began. That might say a lot about the motives of those involved. Let's hope that at some point the government comes through with those files so we can all see the dates.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    In a word....outrageous. And a betrayal of our ideals.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Worst kept secret of this administration!! Its like the J Edger Hoover days all over again. Trillin http://www.mnleftyliberal.blogspot.com

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    et al.... I protested the Viet Nam war with all the zeal I could muster. I was sure the FBI had a file on me, and that was confirmed some time later when I got a top secret clearance in the Air Force. Did they mention they had a file on me....yes. Did it harm me or cause me any greif over the course of my life....no! Part of the deal with protecting Americans is to make sure we are who & what we say we are. That has never been more true than now. It's no biggie...deal with it. If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#13)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.
    Classic. Where this appears in the Bill of Rights, though, is a mystery to me.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Where this appears in the Bill of Rights, though, is a mystery to me.
    I believe that it is part of the preamble of the new neocon Bill O' Rights, as promoted by PNAC. ;)

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    justpaul is right, of course. I'm speaking in context to the anti-war movement only, and certainly not speaking about the origins of the practice itself.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#16)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    “If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.”
    Uug, this tired old turd makes the scene. Lets set aside the glaring self support and circularity of the meme (couldn’t I just as easily ask ‘If I’m doing nothing wrong why are you afraid?’) and take this at face value. Perhaps I enjoy my privacy and would rather not have complete strangers prying into the more intimate aspects of my life for something as trivial as public dissent. Even more enraging is the referral to the counterterrorism unit, where the fourth amendment is simply pretense.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    More speculation and oogity-boogityery. Big numbers are scary, but considering the scale of some of the groups mentioned, the FBI files could mostly be information that the organizations freely advertise. Should the FBI be prohibited from that sort of collection? (I'm actually curious how people feel about that) The ACLU claims 330,000 members -- 1,200 pages is probably not even enough for a roster. And they've been around for 85 years. I don't know the FBI's policies on destroying old files, but 14 pages / year doesn't sound so bad.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Yeah, Lyndon Johnson was a Democrat. And yes, protesters definitely got spied on under Lyndon Johnson. Not a good thing. I believe it led to a set of changes in the rules for the FBI. For a while. Until it became inconvenient again. It's a nonpartisan issue. Both parties have presided over an FBI which spied on its law-abiding citizens. It doesn't help, though, that the current administration appears so obsessed with keeping its secrets (classifying documents at a far higher rate than its predecessors) and on discouraging dissent.
    If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.
    Wow... straight outa Orwell. Look. There may be terrorist cells here. There probably are. However, I can assure you that they aren't infiltrating Code Pink. They aren't marching in downtown Manhattan or San Francisco. Take the example of those young men who turned themselves into homocidal suicide bombers on London's transit system. They kept a pretty low profile, and whoever they were working with, it wasn't the antiwar movement! So, FBI spying on people peacefully exercising their free speech rights is 1) intimidating 2) wrong 3) unproductive Sounds like a great combination to me. Not.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#19)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Is the FBI taking its cues from the Denver Police Department?
    The other way around would be my guess, Ditto. We just happened to find out about the DPD first.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    Folks they've been spying on us since their inception and the moment Edison's discovery could be applied. It's not Democrat or Republican (or Libertarian). Let's not stoop to that old line while the baldheads rock on.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#21)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    B.B. has apparently never heard of Rev. Niemoller.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Take a look at this, especially the page I linked to using tinyurl. If the ACLU is teaming up with groups like that, and given their past history, perhaps it's wise for the FBI to keep up to date on them. That said, the best way to fight the ACLU is to discredit them, something that they're more than willing to help with.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    BTW, this page describes some of the unintended consequences of the "nofollow" tag and links to another site with more. And, it also describes a nifty Firefox trick. Because of the latter, this site has big blobs of red on black text. Of course, it looks that way to search engines too. And, that means you're giving the SEs very little clue to what this site and the individual pages are about.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Did I read that right...fight the ACLU? Why? don't you like liberty?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Another institution that learned NOTHING from history. Or from their own mistakes. Which are the same thing in this case. Dopes.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Lots of groups do things to make themselves look impartial. That may or may not have been why they were involved in Rush's case. As for fighting the ACLU, did you bother to read the link and all the other ACLU coverage I point to? I also consider fighting People for the American Way a good fight, and that's not because I'm opposed to the American Way. There must be a computer program or something that far-left groups use to come up with the anodyne names they hide behind.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#28)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    cheetah writes:
    justpaul is right, of course. I'm speaking in context to the anti-war movement only, and certainly not speaking about the origins of the practice itself.
    MLK was a Vietnam war protestor.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    Posted by justpaul: "It wasn't Nixon who set the FBI spying on MLK. Bobby Kennedy was running the Justice Department when that happened and his brother Jack was president." The suggestion is absurd. J Edgar didn't need no Kennedy's to tell him his business. He had enough files to blackmail most of Washington. Anodyne names? You've got to be kidding. The list of fake groups with utterly misleading names from the right is about three miles long. "MLK was a Vietnam war protestor." As any person of conscience would be. BB, your 'no big deal' was called Cointelpro. It was (and is) UTTERLY illegal, unconstitutional, and in fact TERRORIST, harming innocent people to destroy the lives of people whose only crime was political opposition to illegal and racist policies.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#31)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    This looks increasingly lame. They asked for "any records related or referring to the Requestors", which is so broad that the page counts just don't impress me any more. Only records created since 2000, so my "85 years" comment above is also lame now. (via Orin Kerr)

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#32)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:23 PM EST
    If the link Roy has provided is accurate, this story starts to look less like a question about the motives of the FBI and more about the motives of the ACLU. Why are they only interested in documents dating after 2000? Are they saying that they are not at all interested in any surveillance that may have taken place under the previous administrations? (Which I freely admit ignores the larger question of whether the ACLU's press release on this entire issue is a smokescreen since they didn't actually ask for documents relating to surveillance of them.) Could this be a fabricated "scandal" aimed at this one administration? It certainly seems possible. If so, the "innocuous explanation" that Jeralyn asked for would appear to have materialized. Which is not to suggest that any true surveillance of such groups is warranted, and it's still quite possible that the FBI has been engaging in surveillance that is beyond the bounds, but these reports do suggest that the ACLU might want to try explaining just what it is up to as well, just so we all can be assured that they are in fact concerned about a real issue and not just fishing. Personally, I don't have a problem with the FBI engaging in such surveillance if it has reason to believe that doing so will help it prevent a crime, and given the people who tend to show up at some of these "protest" rallies, that's not an impossibility. That is, after all, part of the job. But I'd like to be able to have some faith that this isn't being done for political purposes, which is something we might be able to judge better if the time period for which documents are being requested was pushed back to oh, I don't know, 1996 maybe? Then we'd get a better idea of whether whatever surveillance was/is being done was/is simply routine, instead of being left with what looks like the intended assumption that this is, in fact, somehow political and somehow tied to this administration only. One would think the ACLU would want to know the truth, wouldn't one? Sadly, the government in this country has a history of using the tools at it's disposal to attack it's enemies, regardless of which party holds the presidency. So having that sort of faith is a leap of same that I cannot take at this moment.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    You don't mind being surveiled on the chance that you might commit a crime, then invite the cameras into your home. The rest of us will retain our rights.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#34)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Suddenly collecting data on the ACLU is the equivalent of placing sureveillance cameras in a private residence. Has anyone here even seen one of theose 1200 documents? Could it be someone typed a memo about some ACLU event or some other routine correspondence?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#35)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Has anyone here even seen one of theose 1200 documents?
    Nope, not unless PIL is an Agent or something. All just speculation. The ACLU has turned annoying in the last couple years. Propagandizing instead of arguing. Harrasing the Minutemen. I'd stop sending them money, but I donate through work and I can't find the form to stop Payroll taking donations out of my paycheck.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#36)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    For those who apparently can't make this particular leap of deduction: Taking part in a "protest" event, ACLU sponsored or otherwise, is unlikely to be something you do "in your home". If you don't want to be surveilled, stay home. Don't invite the cameras into your life. I know this is simple common sense, but there you are, for anyone who might be lacking in such. If you choose to associate with people who have a habit of making a nuisance of themselves, and of causing property damage, you have no business complaining when you end up under the magnifying glass. Another thought which occurs to me on this one is, why is the ACLU suddenly so interested in whether the FBI is keeping tabs on them? Have they been up to something since 2001 that they don't want us to know about? What could that be? Given the timing, the dates involved, and the misrepresentations already pointed out, this looks like yet another manufactured scandal. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are seriously interested in whether or not they have been surveilled in just the last 4.5 years. If so, why?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#37)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Another thought which occurs to me on this one is, why is the ACLU suddenly so interested in whether the FBI is keeping tabs on them? Have they been up to something since 2001 that they don't want us to know about? What could that be?
    That's exactly the sort of nudge-nudge insuation I complained about above. Thanks for the opportunity to disagree with both sides of an argument.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#38)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Roy, I was being facetious. It seems reasonably clear that the ACLU and other activist groups are on a fishing expedition trying to drum up something to complain about on the law enforcement front just while the nation's attention is turned toward the issue of a new Supreme Court justice being named. Nevertheless, whether you appreciate the nudge-nudge wink-wink, say no more or not, I think the ACLU deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone else. So, if this is an innocent FOIA request, if they are, in truth, interested in whether they are being watched, and specifically whether they are being watched for the last 4.5 years and no longer, I think it's reasonable to ask why. If their interest was purely one of whether the FBI has been overstepping the bounds, they would want to know how long it's been going on. That they don't implies their real interest lies elsewhere, but this is a defense laywer related site, so we should at least offer them the opportunity to defend themselves, no?

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Taking part in a "protest" event, ACLU sponsored or otherwise, is unlikely to be something you do "in your home". If you don't want to be surveilled, stay home
    So exercising your right of free speech is reason enough for the gov't to investigate you!? Being a member of groups that support freedom of speech is "evidence of criminal activity or indications that a person may know something about a crime"
    Officials have said agents adhere strictly to Justice Department guidelines requiring evidence of criminal activity or indications that a person may know something about a crime.
    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Posted by Patrick: "Suddenly collecting data on the ACLU is the equivalent of placing sureveillance cameras in a private residence. justpaul "Personally, I don't have a problem with the FBI engaging in such surveillance if it has reason to believe that doing so will help it prevent a crime," Gee, I wonder what made that equivalent? "and given the people who tend to show up at some of these "protest" rallies, that's not an impossibility." Given that there has been THREE YEARS of nonviolent protest without a SINGLE major incident of any kind, you are just being a bigot. Regrettably, the FBI is not allowed to be under law. Cointelpro was not an illusion. It was outed in Congress, and pledges were given that 'never again' would the FBI turn into a domestic spy agency. You want to be surveilled, ask for a camera, and make sure you fingerprint all your houseguests. The rest of us will retain our rights.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Roy: "The ACLU has turned annoying in the last couple years." The ACLU has ALWAYS been annoying. Such is America and its 'annoying laws' requiring respect for our rights. " Propagandizing instead of arguing. Harrasing the Minutemen." Classic. Rightwing racists who harrass and threaten with guns and other weapons in the attempt to instigate vigilantism -- what poor babies that they are investigated. Like the Minuteman who backed his van into three protesters in Orange County (CA) a month or so ago. Assault with a deadly weapon. One of those three, a legal Vietnamese immigrant, has been threatened, and maltreated by police, in the effort to silence her attempts to demand her legal right of police PROTECTION from such behavior. OC cops tossed her apartment on a warrant given for the supposed theft of a $10 police penlight! They trashed her bedroom, threatened her family, and damaged her repute. When the civil case comes through, and OC is paying her a few million for her pains, I'm sure you'll be boohooing some more. I can't wait. " I'd stop sending them money, but I donate through work and I can't find the form to stop Payroll taking donations out of my paycheck." Supporting the KKK isn't on the usual form anyhow. Ask for Form 911: the Right to be a Bigot Because You Are. Don't forget to put in the name of your Wizard.

    Re: FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups (none / 0) (#43)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    Paul in LA, As Henry Kissinger said in early 2004, "Don't listen to Paul in LA, he'll just give you a belly ache". He didn't realize he was being recorded. So all I have to say is, anybody tempted to take PiL seriously on that stuff, do your own research first.

    FBI Collected Files on ACLU and Other Groups | 40 comments (40 topical)