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Now They Get It

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:39:47 PM EST
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by TChris

It's difficult to believe that it took this long for most people to recognize the president's dishonesty.

Less than half of Americans now say they think President Bush is honest, according to an AP-Ipsos poll taken at a time of increasing concerns about Iraq, a potential problem for a president who won re-election declaring that "people know where I stand."

Weren't folks paying attention before the election?

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    Now They Get It | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Why do you ask? Both Gore and Kerry WON their elections. It's Diebold that is to blame, and Diebold and the rightwing Bush-backers...there is no difference.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    They certainly were. More than half the people voted against Bush, but we have the electoral college system, the polls do not. For the polls to be so unfavorabe during a war, albeit an illegal one, is amazing.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    The full poll is here (PDF). Page 1 shows the respondents were disproportionately non-Republican.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#4)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Bush could win reelection today, phony polls notwithstanding. Funny how the people, when properly polled with ballots, are never as laftie as the leftie media makes them out to be. PinLA: yeah, you're so right. It's Diebold. And Toyota. And Ray & Jerry. And the VRWC in very box of Crackerjack. But you're onto 'em now, boss!

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Right, ras. Because on the Bush Bizarro Planet, there's some huge pay-off to polls being inaccurate. Elections, on the other hand, have nothing riding on them. So if the election is 'way out of skew with the polls, it must be the polls that someone bothered to mess with. On this planet, however, most people figured out exactly how devoted the GOP is honest elections in 2000. If you ever get a thought based on anything other than your all-consuming hatred of the left, do let us know.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    What lefty media? The NYT that allowed judy miller to rely on chalbi for evidence of WMDs and put every claim on the front page? The wash post who repeated the claims of the admin that saddam and not bush threw the UN inspectors out of iraq? Please provide links to a MSM 'lefty' outlet. bush 'won' 52 to 48 in the last election. There was no mandate, (except maybe with jeff guckert;-), and his numbers have faded since. Funny thing about Americans, if you keep killing their children w/o justification eventually they will turn you.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#7)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Squeaky - I believe you are wrong. You wrote:
    They certainly were. More than half the people voted against Bush, but we have the electoral college system, the polls do not. For the polls to be so unfavorabe during a war, albeit an illegal one, is amazing.
    As shown this CNN link, Bush won 62,040,606 to Kerry's 59,028,109. That's 53% to 48%. Here is a link to the elections where the winner didn't have a majority, but had a plurality. It is interesting to note that in 1992, if Perot had not ran, GHWB would have won. And Clinton, as they say, would have been history. roy - You must quit paying attention to the man behind the screen. Facts are evil.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#8)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    correction - That's 51% to 48%. Sorry.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#9)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Ah Molly, Why would I hate the Left? They're entertaining and educational. And - and this is key - politically irrelevant now. That wasn't always the case, and yeah, if I went back in time to when Lefties held power and Hitler's National Socialists, and Stalin's Communists, and Mao and Ceaucescu and Pol Pot and Castro Oil and all the rest were just coming into power ... I wouldda been angry about it, sure, knowing the tens of millions (hundreds by some accounts) of innocents who were soon to be slaughtered. But these days? Why?

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#10)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Molly – When s the Left going to quit whining over 2000? Let us face the facts. The Demos wanted to change the rules in the middle of the game and the SC said that was a no-no. And before you start talking about every vote must count, tell us about those absentee military votes that the Demos fought tooth and toenail against. Of course when you have a local party structure that can’t design a vote that their base voters can figure out, what do you expect? ;-)

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#11)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Funny that ppj would list fairvote.org as supprting his POV. 2000 "The candidate with the most votes didn't win" 2004
    "A Nevada judge rejected a lawsuit asking the state to reopen voter registration for citizens whose registrations were torn up by a Republican-backed voter registration firm.

    Most voters in Ohio will use the thoroughly discredited punchcard system, while Florida voters will largely vote on new "touchscreen" systems developed by private companies with proprietary software that is poorly tested and regulated and lacks a voter verifiable paper trail. Against all international norms, states collectively have stripped nearly five million American citizens, disproportionately minority. And states have failed to register nearly one out of every three American adults.
    According to fairvote, Gore and Kerry would have won if the elections had been fair.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Good info here that should help people put this poll in perspective.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#13)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    It is logically impossible to state that the Diebold machines are accurate when there is no way to verify their results. Agree or disagree?

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Jeff g- you wouldn't happen to be Gannon/Guckert, would you? [Ed. no, he's Jeff of Protein Wisdom, follow his link.]

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#15)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    This is a dishonest question. Talkleft supported John Kerry. And John Kerry supported (and supports) the criminal war. Talkleft has helped to disorient the people.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    PPJ, Where do you draw the inference that Perot helped Clinton beat Bush senior? Those results don't show that. Actually exit polls showed that Perot took away just as many votes from Clinton as he did from Bush. His absence would hve changed the result in one state only - Ohio.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#17)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    My vote went for Perot in 1992. And there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that GHWB was goin to get it; had it been the traditional two way race, I would have went Clinton as I did in 1996. Nader, on the other hand, essentially placed Dubya on the throne. Those who voted for him have a certain amount of blood on their hands as well.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Definetly not Gannon/ Guckert ...thanks for the link

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Posted by scarshapedstar: "It is logically impossible to state that the Diebold machines are accurate when there is no way to verify their results." Quite beyond the obvious truth of that, and the UNCONSTITUTIONAL NATURE OF BALLOTLESS VOTING, we now have clear evidence of massive vote-fraud in Ohio in 2004. Reports of two major felonies which INVALIDATE the election in Ohio have been made by Ohio voting officials, and there are THREE Grand Juries looking into massive ($12-250 million) diversion of State funds into private rightwing hands, and transfered into BOTH Bush and Schwartzenegger's 'campaigns.' Andreas, John Kerry does not support the permanent airbases, and he outed that scheme in the first debate in 2004. So your allegation is a lie on its face.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    "Nader, on the other hand, essentially placed Dubya on the throne. Those who voted for him have a certain amount of blood on their hands as well." That's really not true. We haven't had a legal election in the US since computerized voting was allowed to remove the recount rights -- and the 2000 SCOTUS ruling that removed the remaining recount rights in Florida was NOT Nader's fault.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    ras...anyone that calls Hitler left wing deserves to live in an actual socialist country like you currently are. :D PPJ...the felonious 5 of the Supreme Court basically pulled a ruling out of their butts to hand the 2000 election to Bush. And they basically admitted as much.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#22)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Jim, We've been through this before: 1- The USSC made a ruling which cannot be used as precedent 2-The Florida Supremes were deciding a question of state law when the USSC ILLEGALY took jurisdiction away The Justices who installed W to power should be impeached

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    CLUE: "Stupidity is the disease of America". Norman Mailer now that we know numerous Americans don't bother to vote, are obese and are ingesting all manner of drugs, both legal and otherwise, it appears we have indeed become "fat, stupid and not-so-happy".

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    OK, a poll is not an election, but I'd rather go into an election with polls showing that you are ahead then behind. More important, polls do show trends and things aren't trending very well for Republicans. For example, in one of the most Republican districts in the country, a Democrat (Paul Hackett) got 48% of the vote. When your party controls the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives, people expect results not excuses. To quote the headline from the satiric journal the Onion, now that the Republicans are in power the long dark era of peace and prosperity is over.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#25)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    Larry the L writes:
    Actually exit polls showed that Perot took away just as many votes from Clinton as he did from Bush.
    And exit polls had Kerry winning FL. So, your point now is? sailor - Facts be facts. And I also link to the WaP and NYT. Wanna guess what I think about them? ;-) Roger - We can disagree. Glanton - I also voted for Perot, and wouldn't have voted for Clinton. And of about 12 people I know who voted for Perot, none would have voted for Clinton. Opinions are like noses, etc.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#26)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    Is it any surprise that most people no longer believe that their President is honest. A good rule of thumb is to take what Bush says and believe the opposite. What a wonderful example Bush is setting for our children (child to parent "But if lying is wrong how come the President does it?") Probably the main reason for the drop in Bush's popularity is Iraq. Even Bill O'Reilly now believes that if things don't improve in Iraq by next year, the Republicans will suffer major electoral losses. (see video on Crooks and Liars. He says this about halfway through his conversation with Ann Coulter) It is one thing to lie about domestic issues but when your lies result in casualties and deaths, thats another matter.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#27)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    "Paul in LA" is as dishonest as George W. Bush. It is a well known fact that John Kerry supported and supports the war. (I did not mention "permanent airbases".)

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    Well known 'facts' among leftists aren't the same thing as actual facts. Since you refuse to acknowledge the existence of a POLITICAL PROCESS in our government, you ignore its impact on people who run and serve in that government. The leftist press, Amy Goodman (a great American otherwise) especially, ignored Kerry's outing of the USPNAC conspiracy and airbases scheme in the first debate. SHE DIDN'T REPORT IT, so it becomes common knowledge that he supported what HE IS ON THE RECORD REPUDIATING. As for 'supporting the war,' well, yeah -- pretty hard to support the troops as a fellow soldier and not support the action they are involved in. However, Kerry's support for the Winter Soldiers Investigation, which was a major antiwar accomplishment, demonstrates that he is not in support of the command which orders war crimes and torture and the rest of the USPNAC criminality. But it is easier for you to stay pure -- your party has not ONE single legislator to its credit. So easy to scoff at the actual political forces that Senators must respond to, and instead damn the people who actually do what in your world you only would do in a dream that doesn't exist.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    Posted by PPJ aka Jim at August 5, 2005 07:51 PM Molly – When s the Left going to quit whining over 2000? As for the Left, I can't speak for anyone else--unlike the Right, who have no idea what their own opinions are until someone else on the Right lets them know. But if the Dems pulled a stunt like the 'pubs did in 2000, the South would have left us again. (Hopefully, if such an opportunity ever comes up again, we'll have the sense to let 'em go.) Accusing the Dems of being "whiny" whenever this subject come up has worked out so well for the GOP, I'm surprised others haven't tried it. Tell you what--let's all go over to your house. We'll steal your valuables, vandalize the rest, then manhandle you, your family, loved ones and pets into the living room, force-feed you a combo of roofies, acid and viagra and make you act out various scenes from "The Aristocrats" at gunpoint (which of course, we'll tape and sell on the internet). When we're finished, should you ever complain about the experience, we'll just tell everyone how "whiny" you are. Yeah. That'll work. In the meantime, while Republicans certainly have pulled off this theft, those involved--i.e., everyone who's anyone in the Party--may as well have had the words: "We hold democracy in utter contempt" tattooed on their foreheads. We can't get back the election that was taken from us, but there's no reason not to judge what they say or do now in the light of their past actions. For example, when Bush suddenly started claiming that the New and Improved reason for invading Iraq was because . . . uh . . .wait a minute . . . it's, it's for democracy! Yeah, democracy!--that's the ticket. All those 300 or whatever it was* guys who died, uh, they did it for democracy! . . . there's no reason to assume that this new rationale is any more truthful than the crapola about WMDs--at least, for anyone capable of thinking beyond the GOP party line Let us face the facts. . . . says the fella whose idea of a "fact" is whatever Rush Limbaugh tells him it is. Maybe you think that's an unfair assessment, but just as I know the sun will rise in the morning, I know that no matter what Bush does--including blatantly lying to your face--you (and a few others here) will be here typing away whatever he's rationalizing it with. The Demos wanted to change the rules in the middle of the game and the SC said that was a no-no. You mean like counting every vote? And before you start talking about every vote must count, tell us about those absentee military votes that the Demos fought tooth and toenail against. Those votes were counted, dumbass. AND they weren't part of Bush v. Gore. The Dems did argue for about 10 minutes over the ones that weren't postmarked on time, notwithstanding that it's practically impossible for military personnel to get more hand-holding over how and when to fill out and send their absentee ballots than they already get--but relented since they were, after all, military. And what's the Republican Party Line on this? "Fought against tooth and toenail." And you're still whining about it. Republicans, the Eternal Vics. *1829 American soldier deaths as of this morning--and now you know something Bush probably doesn't.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    john horse, I think the onion headline (when Bush entered office) was "Our long national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over." And BOY were they right. Also, a great headline up now: "White house denies existence of Karl Rove."

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    ppj, My point was that Perot did not, as you claimed, help Clinton beat Bush.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#32)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    Curiously, Paul in L.A. writes: "Florida was NOT Nader's fault." But Nader running under the false and dangerous mantra, "there's no difference between the two of them," pulled so many votes away from Gore, in Florida and New Hampshire, to name but two, that Gore was facing an unnecessarily steep uphill battle in those states. Jim: No evidence has ever shown that Perot pulled more votes from GHWB than he did from Clinton. Perot was an unconventional candidate and pulled people all over the board. What did it for me was the fantastic, and absolutely true, "great sucking sound" line.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#33)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    Molly - Touched a nerve, eh? I mean dumb ole W was supposed to be destroyed by the super intelligent Gore, and when that didn't happen the Demos dispatched cadres of lawyers who were supposed to make everything right. Well, that didn't work, and yes, the Left, as a group, has been whining ever since. Gore wanted a selective recount. He just wanted the votes in certain Democratic strong holds counted. That seems like cherry picking to most folks. He then wanted to recount the recount and extend the deadline. The SC said no, the game is over after the 9th inning. And your elitist snarky comment about voting by the military pretty well sums up the Left's position on the military. You know, I am a registered Independent. I call myself a social liberal because I care about some of those programs. Going into that election I thought Gore was a phony and I wasn’t impressed with Bush. But as time went on, Gore became even phonier, and I started to understand what Bush was saying. Oh, I know he couldn’t speak well and stumbled over words. He reminded me of someone standing up in church testifying to his faith, or someone standing up at a school board meeting telling the board what they want changed in the local school system. He was real. Gore wasn’t, even with his “earth tone” clothes. As for me being a dumb as* I would invite the person who is a member of a dysfunctional political party to look in the mirror and say: “Why do we keep getting beat? Oh, I know. It’s because all those red state folks are dumb as*ess.”

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    PPJ-The intellegence just shot up in deep red Ohio; better start taking those smart pills.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    Jim: "Oh, I know he couldn’t speak well and stumbled over words." False. Bush, as demonstrated in the Bush Dyslexicon, has no trouble speaking, UNLESS HE IS LYING. Then the words come out all garbled, because he is engaged in DECEPTION. Decrying the ignorance of the American people is one thing; Mencken's fatalism is really not much more than bigotry.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    Molly - Touched a nerve, eh? The nerve--as in the bit that breaks my heart, and should break yours, was that Americans are supposed to have honest elections. It's one of the things that's supposed to make us different from ordinary countries. And your elitist snarky comment about voting by the military pretty well sums up the Left's position on the military. Jim, I grew up around military people. Clearly, you didn't so I'll type this slow: pretty much everyone in active military votes absentee. This means that if they're even only thinking about voting, the "mail-by" date just looms there over any other campaign/election information. They can't not know, any more than the rest of us would be allowed to vote on the Sunday after the election because it slipped our mind. Sorry you think that's snarky and elitist--I think it's just a basic fact of life on an Army base. You know, I am a registered Independent. Why, so you can preserve the mystery? "Hmmm, I wonder what position Jim's going to take this time--he's a registered Independant, you know." I don't read every thread here, so perhaps there's been an occasion when you pronounced yourself disinclined to believe something Bush said. If so, I missed it. Jim, for Pete's sake, the guy doesn't even bother to lie to your face well. Oh, I know he couldn’t speak well and stumbled over words. He reminded me of someone standing up in church testifying to his faith, or someone standing up at a school board meeting telling the board what they want changed in the local school system. He was real. There's an old saying in politics (also show business): "There's nothing more important than sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it knocked." Bush saw you coming. Whether or not I think you're dumb is trivial. The important thing is that Bush thinks you are.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#38)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    Molly writes:
    Bush saw you coming.
    Actually, he has pretty well done what he said he would do. That's what fakes the Demos out. He means what he says, and he doesn't get upset over polls. Now, do I have problems with him? Yes. His gay rights position is just wrong. He hasn't focused on SS change the way he should. His immigration policy is a disaster. CAFTA was unneeded. He needs to work on a national health care plan. He needs to start looking for ways to fund 16 years of education, and how to better utilize the infrastructure we have. His energy policy has some good points, and he is starting to talk about nuclear energy, but he needs to focus on it. And no, the election wasn't stolen. The Demos lost. Time to give up, grow up and look to the future. BTW - The issue with the "dumb" thing is not trivial. When you insult someone you aren't going to sell them anything. North east politicians coming down south once every four years and going to a NASCAR race does nothing but anger Billy Joe and Peggy Sue. Or even in the midwest. Wasn't it Ohio in which Kerry, posing for a hunting photo-op, said: "Is this here the place I can get me a hunting license??" Why shut my tater hole and pass the collards. This boy is jest one of we'uns. I gotta go vote fer him, rite now. BTW - I served 10 years in Naval Aviation so I think I understand the military to a fair degree. And I think I was right when I described your comment about voting. You were trying to justify what the Demos did. Didn't work. Squeaky - Getting close is fun. Call back when you have won.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    Jim--So you essentially sold the family cow for magic beans because the the magic beans guy was really cute and the guy who merely offered a fair price for cattle was a dork. And then you complain when us dorks point out that it was a dumb move.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#40)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    Molly - No, I decided that what Bush was saying was more believable and better for the country than what Gore was saying. Now fold up your little snarky comment and place it back into your "insult file" for use the next time someone challenges your logic.

    Re: Now They Get It (none / 0) (#41)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    In the end, PPJ, you are in the minority of people who still believe W.

    Now They Get It | 40 comments (40 topical)