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Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 11:40:42 PM EST
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The Washington Post today reports on the CIA's use of secret prisons overseas, in Thailand and an unnamed Eastern European country, used to house and interrogate terror suspects. America: Gulag nation. It's not a pretty picture.

The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions.

The New York Times has a similar report that discusses the diverging views of those in the Administration on proposed new interrogation rules:

The Bush administration is embroiled in a sharp internal debate over whether a new set of Defense Department standards for handling terror suspects should adopt language from the Geneva Conventions prohibiting "cruel," "humiliating" and "degrading" treatment, administration officials say.

Advocates of that approach, who include some Defense and State Department officials and senior military lawyers, contend that moving the military's detention policies closer to international law would prevent further abuses and build support overseas for the fight against Islamic extremists, officials said.

Their opponents, who include aides to Vice President Dick Cheney and some senior Pentagon officials, have argued strongly that the proposed language is vague, would tie the government's hands in combating terrorists and still would not satisfy America's critics, officials said.

Among those Cheney aides opposing the plan is Dick Cheney's counsel David Addington, whom Cheney elevated yesterday to Chief of Staff. In addition, Addington and Cheney were behind the White House push to exempt the CIA from Sen. McCain's torture amendment. That bill goes to House-Senate Conference this week.

Yale Law Professor Jack Balkin has more here.

< Waas: Democrats May Press for Select Committee to Investigate Pre-War Intelligence | Officer Who Abused Power Agrees to Find Another Job >

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    Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons | 51 comments (51 topical)
    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Has everyone forgot the prison ships or the exporting prisoners to countries that will severely torture them? When are we going to get a full account of the count and identity of those prisoners? In my mind I believe that Saddam's two sons are in such circumstances, by the time the bodies were put on display their faces (and bodies) were given a complete cosmetic workover.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#2)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    In time I think we will find David Addington, John Yoo, and Stephen Cambone to be some of the more infamous apologists for indiginities visited upon our fellow human beings. Addington as Cheney's new chief of staff is going to get a lot more attention. And he should. The new CIA prisons in old Soviet bloc countries are simply perverse. More on them and Cambone at The Black Sea.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    charley -- one has to wonder if you see the distinction of leaking the truth versus leaking a lie. context and intent -

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Charley, your snark disgusts me. Only a really ugly person could poke fun in lieu of any other defense. Sorry, you were wrong. Bush is a loser as-hole and Cheney and Rumsfeld are war criminals. Gitmoizing is too good for them. Right now men and boys are being raped and tortured in your name with your money. It's too late to whine and snark - the whole ugly mess is unraveling and guess what? It's as bad as and worse than even left wing accusations. Shame on you and everyone else defending these thugs.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#5)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    nice hyperbole, little facts
    Yep. That about sums up when we've been getting from this administartion. Of course, I'd add imaginary fears and exaggerated dangers as well.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Mfox, et al, With all due respect, you may be disgusted with Charley's bluntness, but he has a point. The vast majority of those here have spent years now hyperventilating over the possibility that Valerie Plame's identity as a "covert" CIA agent was leaked by someone at the Whitehouse. There are still some rather significant questions about whether this happened (the indictments refer to alleged lies told after the investigation began) and about whether revealing her identity as a CIA employee was in fact a crime at all (no indictment on that count at all to date). Nevertheless, very few people here have failed to jump on the "we must find the leaker" bandwagon. Now we another case of someone revealing classified information. Personally, I'm glad that it was leaked, because I'm not comfortable with the idea that the kind of things listed as happening at these facilities may be going on in my name (please note, however, that what we have here so far is a claim that they are happening; no hard evidence has been presented and your preference that these allegations be true does not make them so). Nevertheless, the mere existence of these prisons, which does seem to be verified, was in fact a secret and it has been leaked. Will the left now demand that we find out who the leakers were and that they be prosecuted, or is the left's newfound love of CIA agents and respect for the government prerogative of classifying information limited to leftist CIA agents who involve themselves in political causes to your liking and secrets you don't care about, as Charley suggests? Nonconcern over this issue brings into serious question your true motives when you claim to be offended by the leaking of the fact that Valerie Plame had a desk job at the CIA, a fact that was hardly unknown in Washington.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#7)
    by mjvpi on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    The rise of Nazi Germany has always intrigued me. How could a whole nation of basicly normal people morph into what it eventually became. Perhaps "Charley" can do a report for us on the effects of fear on the masses.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#8)
    by mjvpi on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    The rise of Nazi Germany has always intrigued me. How could a whole nation of basicly normal people morph into what it eventually became. Perhaps "Charley" can do a report for us on the effects of fear on the masses.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    I'm sorry, justpaul, but charley doesn't really have a point, not even kinda sorta. This leak obviously did not reveal the name of a covert agent. Whether or not there was a violation of the IIPA with the Plame Wilson leak still is not settled as a matter of law, and may never be, sad to say. For this leak, however, it's clear there wasn't 'cause no one was outed. Unless and until the CIA makes a referral to the Justice Dept on this matter, like they did in the Plame Wilson case, this is really not subject to dispute. On the larger "point" charley makes, which is that this leak "puts lives at risk, well, that is just an assertion and one that does not seem to be supported by facts. Whose lives are at risk here, exactly? The folks running the "black sites"? Well, know one knows who or even specifically where they are. Bottom line, this argument is pure BS. Leaking is not a crime. Outing a covert operative is. Moral of the story? Think before you agree with a troll!

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    JustPaul, Speaking personally, I wouldn't categorize my concern as "years hyperventilating" about whether a crime was committed in that specific leak case. That would be like saying that Clinton was impeached for a blowjob. Or Watergate was about a breakin. My concern (and I am hyperventilating about this one) is that more and more evidence is being revealed that verifies my and many others' strong conviction that the war was hyped, pre-planned, that the administration knowingly manipilated evidence to justify a war that has trashed a whole other country, our economy and hundreds of thousands of people who are the veterans and their families, friends and neighbors. The emperor has no clothes. Who has to tell you - a little kid?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Nevertheless, the mere existence of these prisons, which does seem to be verified, was in fact a secret. Why do they have to be secret? Think about that JustPaul. Theres no national security issue in de-classifying the facilities, clearly they were estblished as a place where laws did not apply.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Jack, You should go back and read avery comment posted here by TL and by the readers with regard to why it was wrong for Valerie Plame's name to have been leaked. Not everyone (actually very few if any) have made the argument that the reason it was wrong is solely because a person's identity was revealed. Those statements almost always referred to the law making it illegal to reveal a covert agent's identity (which it now appears was never the case). Leaks are leaks, and leaks are illegal. They are wrong, no matter what, even when they provide information I am glad to get. As for the ever ubiquitous "troll" BS: How typical. Another left-wing moron has come aboard sporting an idiotic nomme de pleur and starts calling other people "trolls" because he disagrees with them. So much for openmindedness on the left, aye? The party of "diversity" proves once again that diversity of thought is not to be tolerated. You and Che will get along just fine. Mfox, I never said the emperor had any clothes. That's always been your take on my comments because you simply assume that anyone who does not subscribe to your version of reality is a Bush supporter. I've more than had my fill of this administration and its broken promises. But that doesn't mean I accept every attack on it as fact until proven otherwise, as so many here do. I also find your reference to Clinton's impeachment rather interesting. There are a number of people here who would be more than happy to take issue with the statement that Clinton was not impeached over a blowjob if I or Charley said it. Welcome to the "vast right-wing conspiracy". And I always thought you were a wangnut;-)

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Charley, why don't you provide us a list of what similarities you think WE would say exist...

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Impressive. Charley thinks undermining our WMD counterproliferation efforts and torturing people in illegal secret gulags are, morally, just as good as one another. Words fail me.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Forgive me for resorting to generalizations. The comments I criticized I in fact find immensely frustrating and distressing. Perhaps that wasn't anyone's intention? I think most of us understand what I mean by snark - we all do it, but my level of concern is such that I find that particular genre of expression flippant and dismissive of the seriousness of America's foreign policy affronts. My issues re: the relevance of the Plame investigation (gee- how did this get on the SECRET PRISONS thread???) are as follows: No useful intelligence is being gathered by the sadistic treatment (aka softening up) of prisoners - many of whom have been arrested arbitrarily and have either no connection or no useful information to insurgents. This ugly vipers nest of covert American policy resulted from a failed intelligence gathering strategy which resulted from a failed military strategy which resulted directly from White House Policy. I believe said White House policy included strategies for launching a pre-planned Iraq invasion now that 9/11 provided the perfect political justification and an accompanying "marketing" campaign conducted more like a political campaign where supporting facts are "dug up" , negative facts are squashed by any means necessary and political opponents are gone after ruthlessly. Ultimately they got their votes - from a spinless Senate and power hungry Congress. Their hijinks included using information that had been previously discredited by Mr. Wilson. When Wilson went public at a sensitive time with accusations of the above mentioned conspiracy they went after him like an angry pitbull. Apparently Cheney's office did the dirty work, and the smear campaign included the implication that Wilson's wife set up the trip. It appears also that outing an agent wasn't their intention at all and it may have been actually an unintended result of their meddling that tripped them up and led to the investigation. Twist the above any way you want. Just at least admit it if you think the above is okay if true and justifies what's going on in these prisons as we blog today.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    justpaul:
    Leaks are leaks, and leaks are illegal. They are wrong, no matter what, even when they provide information I am glad to get.
    Is that really true? Acts do not become lawful just by being secret. In the corporate world, companies can legitmately fire employees for leaking proprietary company information, but we have whistleblower laws to protect employes who reveal that a company has been breaking the law. Isn't leaking the details of Valerie Plame's job analagous to the former, whereas leaking the details of prisons -- being kept secret to cover up violations of the Geneva Conventions -- analogous to the latter?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    We will see the rats jump ship while the trolls sink unable to get out of steerage. Echo chambers have quite a long delay, especially for words uttered in a whisped tones like...... jump.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Leaks are leaks, and leaks are illegal. Um, justpaul, want to cite the law that was broken here? No? Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about? Hmm? The UK has an official secrets act, but the US doesn't. It may have been a violation of the leaker's condition of employment but no law was broken merely by leaking information that may or may not have been classified. Go read the Epsionage Act, for example. Other circumstances must apply. Frankly, I don't give a rat's arse whether "very few if any" objected to the Plame Wilson leak because an operative was outed. I don't think that is the case but even if it is, it is irrelavent. Because an operative was outed, the outing was a potential crime, and that's why the CIA made the referral to the Justice Dept. Now, you seem to be making the case that because no one has yet been indicted for outing Plame Wilson that no crime was committed (I'm referring to your "which it now appears was never the case" remark), with all due respect, justpaul, that's just not a very bright remark. By that logic, Nicole Brown Simpson's and Ron Goldman's death's were not crimes because no one was ever convicted of the crime. Do you believe that this is the case, justpaul? And as for me being "a left-wing moron", well, jeez, ya got me there, bud! Impressive logic, clever wordplay. I can only throw myself at your mercy! Be kind, justpaul!

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    mfox writes:
    No useful intelligence is being gathered
    How do you know? Are you channeling someone? You write:
    trashed a whole other country, our economy and hundreds of thousands of people who are the veterans and their families, friends and neighbors.
    The economy is doing very well, thank you. Last quarter saw a 3.8% growth, job creation is strong, gasoline prices are falling, the stock market is stable and growing... Now, care to refute that to prove your claim. Trashed countries? Odd description, but yes, we did trash some infrastructure while getting rid of Saddam. That's what happens in wars. You write:
    I believe said White House policy included strategies for launching a pre-planned Iraq invasion now that 9/11 provided the perfect political justification
    What you refer to are called "war plans" and exist for many countries and many different conditions. There is nothing new or unusual in this. Please educate yourself. You also continue to make the old claim about "intelligence." I would remind you, again, that the world's intelligence agencies all believed Saddam had WMD's. I would also ask that you read the Kay Report in which Kay clearly states that while they found no WMD's, a mountain of evidence showed that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business. Can you guess what he would have done with them? Can you spell "give or sell" them to terrorists?? You write:
    Apparently Cheney's office did the dirty work, and the smear campaign included the implication that Wilson's wife set up the trip.
    It is well settled that Mrs. Wilson recommended her husband for the trip. From the Senate Report:
    On February 19, 2002, CPD hosted a meeting with the former ambassador, intelligence analysts from both the CIA and INR, and several individuals from the DO's Africa and CPD divisions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the merits of the former ambassador traveling to Niger. An INR analyst's notes indicate that the meeting was "apparently convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."
    You really should read the report, Mfox. It contains some really stuff about whether or not Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake.
    Mayaki said, however, that in June 1999,(xxxxxxx) businessman, approached him and insisted that Mayaki meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The intelligence report said that Mayaki interpreted "expanding commercial relations" to mean that the delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales. The intelligence report also said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to the UN sanctions on Iraq."
    Since you approach things logically, you might want to re-read Bush's SOTU 2003 speech. In it he said the British said that Saddam was attempting to purchase yellowcake. NOT THAT THEY HAD PURCHASED. The Niger contact, Mayaki, aid they were trying. BUT HAD NOT PURCHASED. Which proves Bush 100% correct. The British, BTW, also say their analysis was correct. You might want to read Joe Wilson's 7/6/03 NYT op-ed, In it Wilson says:
    intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.
    Given that he was aware that Bush's statement was about attempting, not purchasing. And given that he knew about Mayaki's statement regarding Iraqi meetings, it appears that it was Wilson doing the twisting. Isn't logic a wonderful thing??

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    Isn't logic a wonderful thing??
    so are honesty and etical behavior, 2 things you are unfamiliar with. PPJ - all distortion and untruths, all the time

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#21)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    PPJ and Charley I love reading your factual statements and then seeing the responses from the likes of mfox and soccerdad based on nothing more then talking points repeated so many times by the MSM that they become leftist facts. I would love to know what it would be like to have my wishes and my parties political talking points passed off as facts by the MSM. Examples: Joe Wilson is beset by this media onslaught (hence his posing for Vanity Fair); Bush & the "Cabal" misused intelligence; Democrats never said that Saddam had WMD; Alito wants to overturn RvW and loves machine guns etc..., etc.... This ability to have facts put aside in op-eds and on TV (See Matthews tongiht) would make it so easy to argue with the other side. Oh well. Like you'll I'll stick to the truth. I'd be frustrated to if I only got a pergury indictment for Fritzmas.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#22)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    job creation is strong, gasoline prices are falling, the stock market is stable and growing... Now, care to refute that to prove your claim.
    Well, geez, there's so much of substance there to refute, where to begin? Please tell me this is a fake PPJ...

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#23)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Due process isn’t an American right; it is a fundamental human right. Charge them and put them on trial, or let them go.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    "nothing says you have to release prisoners during combat." So, are these POWs then?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Jim, back with his yellowcake LIES. WHY WOULD HUSSEIN WANT YELLOWCAKE? He had 500 TONS already, and couldn't do anything with it. The only basis of the yellowcake lies were the aluminum tube lies. Don't hear much about those lies lately. How about them drones, eh, Jim? Iraq was disarmed by 1997. Hussein himself eliminated his nuclear program, such as it was, by 1994. On the other hand, Bush, by leaving Tuwaitha WIDE OPEN for a full MONTH, allowed hostiles to take CESIUM AND STRONTIUM, which are high-grade nuclear materials, suitable immediately for dirty bombs. How much Cesium and Strontium is missing from Tuwaitha? Only Bush knows, because the IAEA has not been allowed to catalog the site since the invasion (except for the yellowcake, which is not particularly dangerous as such, a warcrime of negligently exposing civilians to toxics).

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Posted by charley: "I guess they should have thought of that when they took up arms." When did they take up arms? They NEVER took up arms against the United States. Fifteen Saudi hijackers -- where is your war on terror impinging on Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia, which funds the madrassas that train terrorists? Saudi Arabia which gave birth to Osama Bin Laden, and whose brother is a former Bush business partner?
    Saudi Government Provided Aid to 9/11 Hijackers, Sources Say   By Josh Meyer   The Los Angeles Times   Saturday 02 August 2003   WASHINGTON - The 27 classified pages of a congressional report about Sept. 11 depict a Saudi government that not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts, according to sources familiar with the document.   One U.S. official who has read the classified section said it describes "very direct, very specific links" between Saudi officials, two of the San Diego-based hijackers and other potential co-conspirators "that cannot be passed off as rogue, isolated or coincidental."   Said another official: "It's really damning. What it says is that not only Saudi entities or nationals are implicated in 9/11, but the [Saudi] government" as well.
    So, overseas prisons full of Iraqis, and an attack on Iraq. Only a racist thinks that 'they are all the same.' Iraqis never took up arms against the US. By releasing these innocent persons, the US admits that it had no basis for holding them, much less for torturing them for 'information' they did not possess. As usual, charley the troll, you are disgusting.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Nice to see the Left defending Saddam and his lovely sons again. I guess if you don't have the Soviets to defend or a little red book to wave around anymore you have to defend someone.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#28)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Of course, we all know that the prisons are secret because we are ashamed of them. Interesting how some here talk about everything BUT....... If you are proud of what is done in your name, then demand that the pictures and videos of these facilities be shown on TV. Interview the inmates to show others that they dont want to end up there. Or you could just slink around, and lie

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#29)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Charley, I am sure that AQ knows who's been missing. Other than that, I am just saying, show the conditions. They already have video, you can bet on that. Now, they wont even show video from AG, that we all know exists. We even know what's on it. No one is saying to automatically set anyone free, no intel made public. Still against it?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Can't the right tell the difference between leaking the identtiy of a patriot risking her life for American, for political gain, and leaking the commission of war crimes in the name of the United States, in an attempt to stop them? Well, evidently they cannot. Depravity.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    SD - You refute nothing, you just offer a trollish attack, showing that my points are on target. scar - 3.8% economic growth is known by all as a wonderful figure. Now. Refute away. Your problem is, you can't. PIL writes:
    Jim, back with his yellowcake LIES.
    I see that you continue with your potty mouth. The yellow cake puchase attempt was quoted from the Senate report, with links. Something that you are always very short of. Now, trot off to DC and call them liars, PIL, they will ignore you. BTW - In the arms depot you inaccurately comment about, one of the explosives found was the one used to manufacture nuclear triggers. Let see, yellowcake, nuclear triggers.. BTW - here is what Kay said:
    . Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Even those senior officials we have interviewed who claim no direct knowledge of any on-going prohibited activities readily acknowledge that Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to either restart CW production or make available chemical weapons. 2. In the delivery systems area there were already well advanced, but undeclared, on-going activities that, if OIF had not intervened, would have resulted in the production of missiles with ranges at least up to 1000 km, well in excess of the UN permitted range of 150 km. These missile activities were supported by a serious clandestine procurement program about which we have much still to learn. 3. In the chemical and biological weapons area we have confidence that there were at a minimum clandestine on-going research and development activities that were embedded in the Iraqi Intelligence Service. While we have much yet to learn about the exact work programs and capabilities of these activities, it is already apparent that these undeclared activities would have at a minimum facilitated chemical and biological weapons activities and provided a technically trained cadre
    . You write:
    When did they take up arms? They NEVER took up arms against the United States.
    As I have shown you time and again, the strategy adapted by Bush was, and is, a pre-emptive strike strategy. This is due to one simple fact. If we had waited until Iraq had become an imminent danger, it would be too late. This, of course, is understood by you, but your rabid hatred of Bush, and anyone who disagrees with you, prevents you from accepting these facts. BTW - Care to tell us again about those seven guys you stared down? Roger - I respect your positions, but do understand that they are, as is true for all of us, colored by our experience. You have seen the worst of both sides, and your inclination is towards the defense. These are, in fact, claims. Cliams made by people who our our enemies, and would do us harm. To me, this places the burden of proof on them.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    rea - The following says it best regarding Mr. and Mrs. Wilson:
    This prosecution, in any event, is an assault on the presidency. If Ms. Plame didn't want her identity out, she shouldn't have gotten her husband a secret mission and then allowed him to wage a public campaign against the president's foreign policy. The leading prevaricator in this case is Mr. Wilson himself. He has accused Mr. Bush of falsely leading America to war. Mr. Bush had claimed "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Mr. Wilson drank tea in Niger for a week and said that Mr. Bush's claim was not true. But even after Mr. Wilson's objection, the July 2004 report by the British government's Butler Commission found that Mr. Bush's comment was "well-founded." In a July 2004 report by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senators Roberts, Hatch, and Bond said of Mr. Wilson, "The former Ambassador, either by design or through ignorance, gave the American people and, for that matter, the world a version of events that was inaccurate, unsubstantiated, and misleading."
    Link NY Sun I would note that she also shouldn't have posed for the cover of Vanity Fair, and it would have been helpful if her husband had simply said no comment to David Corn for his 7/16/2003 article. Instead he played the "nudge-nudge wink-wink" game. Of course the real fact is that she wasn't covert, as the lack of indictment by the SP shows. Absence that, and either a conviction or a guilty plea, we can wonder.. Which is worse? Depravity or knowingly making false claims? Depravity destroys the individual. False claims harms many.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    It's amazing how quickly some folks will endorse torture and kidnapping. It's wrong when any individual does it, it's wrong when other countries do it, it's wrong when bush does it. IT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    If we had waited until Iraq had become an imminent danger, it would be too late.
    Yeah, now we got 2,000 plus dead and counting...10,000 maimed for life and counting...200 billion out of the treasury down the toilet and counting...a potential civil war, a terrorist recruiting bonanza, a torture scandal, a government under investigation, a former secretary of state claiming he was duped... But no imminent danger there. No, sir. PPJ...always ready to guzzle the kool-aid. Or maybe he's just "deep undercover".

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    False claims harms many.
    False claims like 'SH has WMDs'; 'we know where they are'; 'AQ and iraq are buddies'!? bush has killed more iraqis than SH in any given comparable time frame. bushco kept rape and torture going in iraq. bushco has lied and tried to cover it up at every point. Secret detentions and torture ARE NOT american values, no matter what the rnc talking points claim.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Depravity destroys the individual.
    Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me. ~W. mocking a fellow born again Christian.
    False claims harms many.
    MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction? SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. ~Rummy, well, being his usual self.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#37)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    3.8% economic growth is known by all as a wonderful figure. Now. Refute away. Your problem is, you can't.
    I'm just the guy sitting in the back of the room, laughing his a** off while you sputter "Three point eight percent! THREE POINT EIGHT! Have you ever heard something so wonderful as THREE POINT EIGHT? Refute it, I dare you! Tell me that this three point eight is not three point eight. You liberals are all the same; you talk about how our wealth disparity is reaching Gilded-age levels, you talk about how I'm on crack when I say gas is cheap, you talk about how unemployment is a stupid figure because it doesn't include people who are no longer looking for a job, but when it comes to the three point eight, you just clam up! Because really, who can argue with three point eight? My unnamed source is surely impeccable, and everyone knows you can't simply make up a number as wonderful (Jim's exact words!) as three point eight." Have you been drinking, Jim?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    Posted by jimcee: "Nice to see the Left defending Saddam and his lovely sons again." Since I'm the only one besides charlie who mentioned Saddamie, you must be talking about me, you scurrilous toad. You can't find anything wrong with the facts I posted, and you apparently don't recognize that Democrats are not leftists. So you come up with this: "I guess if you don't have the Soviets to defend or a little red book to wave around anymore you have to defend someone." Wow, how do you look in the mirror after IDIOTIC nonsense like that. Do you REALLY think that people here are old enough to have defended the Soviets or Mao? That's freaking hilarious. Your guy Georgie is friends with Kadafi, Karamov, Putin, and half the other dictators you can or can't name. He is harboring a terrorist who blew up a civilian airliner, and has 1,500 Apartheid terrorists in the disarmed country of Iraq, where he has killed a hundred thousand innocent people. THAT would make the Soviets proud. As for Mao, I don't support mass-murderers,but you do.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#39)
    by kipling on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Several European countries are now investigating whether the CIA has been using European airports for refuelling/stopovers for its fleet of planes whisking prisoners off to other countries to be tortured.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#40)
    by kipling on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Nailed! LOL!! (My emphasis) The neocons intended to destroy Iraq years before September 11, years before anyone had ever spoken of al-Qaeda, and years before anyone had any concern whatsoever about the weapons of mass destruction supplied to Saddam largely by Americans like Rumsfeld (and subsequently destroyed). All their lies were simply ad hoc excuses to back up a ten-year old plan which had been thwarted by Presidents too smart to carry it out. Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Libby just bided their time during the Clinton interregnum, waiting for a Bush stupid enough to go along with their insane ideas. The upshot is the biggest mistake in the history of American foreign policy, soon apparently to be repeated over and over again in places like Syria.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    The attack on Fitzgerald is utterly misplaced, kipling. This is typical leftism -- attacking the successful incremental act, because the person didn't do the impossible. Which flows from the pens of those who have ZERO seats in government, because they are too pure. They do the impossible twice before breakfast.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#42)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Jim, This is a thread about secret prisons and torture, not about Wilson and Plame. First of all, we are dealing with very bad people, who want to kill us. If torture actually worked, I'd probably allow it. However, it does not work, and it hurts US interests in other ways also. I would not release intel info, just show conditioins at the facility. The only legit objection that I can see is that if the location is disclosed, someone might try a prison break. To prevent that, I would place the facilities in the US where there is no infrastructure for the terrorists to actually accomplish that. The secrecy and the torture do not further our aims. Why do it?

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Roger - There is probably more infrastructure in the US for a prison break than anyplace else. You know, unrestricted movement, large mixture of various ethnic groups, etc. Does torture work? It will work on some people, on some it will not. Pyschops stuff will work on some people, on some it will not. Should we use it? I don't know. Right now we are trying to win a war with reduced resources and restrained violence. As you know, intelligence plays a huge role in such a situation. I think we both know that if this strategy fails we will receive another attack within the US. It will probably be much worse than 9/11 and our response will be extreme. BTW - Did you ever go through Escape and Evasion school? BTW - I didn't bring Plame up. Read back up the thread. It was started by Mfox with her extremely vulgar comments:
    Bush is a loser as-hole and Cheney and Rumsfeld are war criminals. Gitmoizing is too good for them. Right now men and boys are being raped and tortured in your name with your money. It's too late to whine and snark - the whole ugly mess is unraveling and guess what?
    Which invoked a response from justpaul and it then evolved into Mfox, and others, making a raft of false claims. I merely refuted them. kipling - And what was the motive for their actions? scar - If you can't refute, just be trollish, eh? 3.8% growth in a quarter is considered very good. If you don't know that be sure and have a good financial advisor around for the rest of your life. In the early 60's cars cost around $2500. Same type now sells for around $25,000. Gas was around .30 - .25 cents per gallon, so $2.50 is cheap. Problem is, anytime OPEC wants they can jerk our string. We need nuke power, and lots and lots of in-country drilling, Unemployment is around 5%. That is less than what it was in '96-98 during the Internet bubble. Is the current employment picture going to give everyone the job they think they deserve? No. It never did. To any student I offer the following. Do not get a degree in any of the soft stuff. Stick to science and engineering. If you want one, pick up an MBA later on. sailor - Nope, those claims were based on information from the CIA. The false claims I speak of come from NYTimes op-eds and Vanity Fair magazine covers.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#44)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Jim, One of these guys just escaped from a jail in Afghanistan. I just dont see that happening from a supermax. And no, I never took the escape and evasion course. My Airforce buddies got to take it, but us Army guys were not offered it. Too bad, it sounded pretty cool. BTW- Very few prison breaks in the US. Corrections keeps improving the facilities, and they have it down. Most escapes are from the individual cop, from work release, or mistaken discharge.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Roger - Uh... They just captured those two lifers who escaped earlier this week. I was thinking more of a break-in rather than a break-out.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:43 PM EST
    Posted by charley: "this past week, we had the president of one of these rogue regimes in the Middle East reiterating the regime goal of finishing the genocide his nazi ancestors were not able to complete." Oh? Did the Likud add to its record of calling for (and carrying out) ETHNIC CLEANSING of Palestinians? Did Bush's APARTHEID MERCENARIES kill another thousand innocent Arab civilians? Bush is a white supremacist racist, and so are you, charlie. You and Adolph are pals.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    What is amazing is how incoherent you are as you spew hate. The torture gulags that you support are really gulags and were really gilags in Romania and Poland. Just like Saddam's torture houses are now American torture houses. The analogy continues as you have the most similarity to your 'Adolph' than anyone on the left. Funny how the right becomes just like the ultra right Fascists they oust. Must be that there is big money in the equation because there are clearly no moral principals at work.
    amazing how the left is able to reconcile its apparent admiration for folks calling for carrying out what Adolf started with its professed concern for human rights and decency.
    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    Do you think we could get TL to start a thread for RW nuts only, so that the rest of us would not have to waste time wading through the same old nonsense from charley, jimcee, PPJ, and slado? Their posts make me feel like John Cleese in The Argument Sketch.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    Posted by charley: "PIL-same old lies." O'Reilly. • Did the Likud add to its record of calling for (and carrying out) ETHNIC CLEANSING of Palestinians? • Did Bush's APARTHEID MERCENARIES kill another thousand innocent Arab civilians? Those are the facts I just posted. The Likud statement was made last year, right before the Roadmap was hijacked by Georgie. The Apartheid Mercenaries is also NOT A LIE, just Google 'Francois Stryber' and learn something for once in your benighted life.

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    Cymro - Before I comment, I again wonder if English is tour first language. Any reading of this thread will show that the drift towards Mrs. Wilson started with attacks by card carrying members of the Left. Your problem is that you don't mind these inaccurate vukgar attacks, you just don't want them refuted. You might also to take pause to consider that PIL happily joined in to provide his usual quota of "you lie" and "you are a racist" comments

    Re: Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    PPJ:
    I again wonder if English is tour (sic) first language. Any reading of this thread will show that the drift towards Mrs. Wilson started with attacks by card carrying members of the Left.
    It does not take an advanced knowledge of English to read this post from charley, which was the second in this thread:
    wow, a leak by a probable insider at the CIA or State Department to a reporter that puts actual lives at risk-surely, given the newly found emphasis on combating these leaks, the left will be calling for special prosecutors. won't it?
    Did you not grasp that his reference to special prosecutors was intended to draw a comparison with the leaks about Mrs. Wilson? Maybe the real problem lies in your ability to grasp what is obvious to others, not in my facility with the language?

    Details Emerge About Secret Overseas Prisons | 51 comments (51 topical)