home

Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals as Weapon in Iraq

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Nov 08, 2005 at 06:37:03 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

by TChris

An Italian news channel today aired a documentary that "accused the United States of using chemical weapons against the civilian population during a November 2004 bombardment of Fallujah."

RAI says the use of white phosphorus in built-up areas amounts to the illegal use of chemical weapons, although the BBC notes that such bombs are considered incendiary devices. The US military admits to using the weapon to illuminate battlefields in Iraq, and says it did so in Fallujah, but insists it did not use it in civilian areas.

The military denies that video in the documentary shows the indiscriminate use of white phosphorus "on both insurgents and the civilian population," as the documentary alleges. The description of photographs posted by the news service is gruesome:

Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved .... or turned the consistency of leather by the shells.

< Better Late Than Never? | Science v. Politics in Kansas >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals as Weapon in Iraq | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    From the BBC:
    Jeff Englehart, described as a former US soldier who served in Falluja, tells of how he heard orders for white phosphorus to be deployed over military radio - and saw the results. "Burned bodies, burned women, burned children; white phosphorus kills indiscriminately... When it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning flesh to the bone," he says.
    These are war crimes, perpetrated by war criminals. Perhaps there will never be justice, but the world will not forget what the United States did in Iraq for generations. There will be monuments raised to the victims of American war crimes. There will be vigils and days of mourning. Children over the world will learn of the war crimes perpetrated by the Americans in their history lessons. Americans abroad will be ashamed to let their nationality be known. It's not enough to point the finger at Bush. America is supposed to be a democracy, a free country. Is there no justice in America? Are Americans really going to tolerate a system where Clinton is impeached for not admitting to an extramarital sexual encounter, but Bush is not punished for presiding over a reign of torture and terror? What kind of democracy is that? Who do Americans think they're kidding?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#2)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    Fallujah has been a disgrace waiting for more exposure for some time. More on this at Fallujah: Fires of Hell The United State is the only country in the world that stocks MD 77, a napalm cousin United States alone in the world has in its arsenal as the rest of the world signed a treaty forbidding its use. Much more on this in the links. A total disgrace.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    We did the same thing in Vietnam and Korea...hell we did a lot worse in that great patriotic war called World War II. But this time we did it to avenge the lynchings of 4 mercenaries. Any excuse to exterminate those who are racially inferior and live on top of what some old men covet.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    al: "What kind of democracy is that? Who do Americans think they're kidding?" What about a coup don't you understand? Let's count up those Americans: Our voting system was hijacked to bring this about (a few thousand Americans from five or six companies of traitors), the Supreme Court betrayed us (that's five Americans right there), and the R party ponied up for the bribes, while the D party got threats (and some, bribes as well). That's about 5,000 Americans, once you add in the military brass. Pour in energy and weapons companies, and you're at maybe 20,000 Americans with real power. Add in the corporate press, which gave us the cruelest shaft (other than the Nine-eleven portion of the conspiracy). Toss in the troops -- they get blamed for everything anyhow. 500,000 'Vichy' and 'Nazi' former-Americans. Out of 300 million. Turning the telescope around, you can see this in proper perspective. A coup by racist corporations willing to profit from war and terror. We've seen quite a few of those in our human race, from a range of cultures. Where money is, where power is, corruption is, and racism is. Save the blame for the guilty.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    After the first pogrom of Fallujah, US water trucks reportedly went through the streets, washing them down with high-pressure hoses. That's really not necessary for phosphorus OR napalm (or napalm+). • Do you want to bet that the USPNAC is carrying on germ warfare testing, as it is carrying on torture TESTING? • Are we going to find that some of these secret prisons are doing hospital research on captive people, just like the Japanese did in Manchuria in Unit 731? We already know that APA-licenced psychologists were helping design, implement, monitor, and assess torture programs at Guantanamo, and, now we find out, in the Black Hold of Guantanamo, hidden within. Don't cry over the KNOWN crimes. It is the unknown DEPRAVITY that will emerge, which is the TRUE and REVOLTING Legacy of Bush.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    If you want to see what the rest of the world is seeing, clips from the RAI documentary are being shown in the news on the French cable channel here in the States (TV5), including visuals of the bodies of people RAI claims were killed by our use of phosphorus in Fallujah. When is the MSM going to wake up? While some of this has been reported in the US, it seems to be with a yawn and a shrug... Didn't we go into Iraq to save the world from Saddam's use of WMD, including chemical warfare? Wasn't the image of Kurds who were gassed by Saddam used by the Bush administration to help make their point? As Trent Lott says, we have seen the enemy, and it is us...

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    Actually Pogo said it first.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#8)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    Paul in LA, I sympathize, but 300 million people are not powerless against 20,000. In Ukraine they had dodgy elections, too. Someone even poisoned the main opposition candidate. This sparked the Orange Revolution, a peaceful resistance movement that ultimately kicked the bums out. Americans must realize this coup, as you say, is destroying everything good that America stands for.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    All of you.. so quick to jump on this as fact! Shame on you. Why do you all hate America so much?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Mark, all of those links are in the wrong format. BB, why do you love warcrimes so much? Posted by Al: "300 million people are not powerless against 20,000." That's an odd thing to say, Al. Try lighting a fire with wet tinder some time. Fire is powerful -- why can't it light the tinder? A coup is well planned to dismantle the prevailing government. You don't take into account the anthrax letters, the Wellstone killing, and the other threats and coercion that were used. And you ignore the muffling of the media. Nonetheless, activists in large numbers have been active thoughout this period. I'm a bit tired of my own six year deployment, but I feel a great responsibility to the people in the ME, including our soldiers. YMMV, but bigoted overgeneralizations is not the answer.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Actually if one travels over to Instapundit there is a link that debunks this story. It has to do with the theory that phosphorus weapons burn flesh but not clothing as has been asserted by the RAI report and the Independent UK. Apparently this is not true but read it for yourself and decide. I do find it interesting that residents of the feverswamps on the Left are willing to buy this story lock, stock and barrel without further research into the effects of phosphorus weaponry. Interesting but not suprising.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#12)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    The story isn't debunked in its entirety -- just the part about unburned clothes being evidence of white phosphorus. The other claims are untouched.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    actually if one travels over to Instapundit there is a link that debunks this story.
    Ha Ha, quoting instapundit!?
    It has to do with the theory that phosphorus weapons burn flesh but not clothing
    Standard wingnut response, find one little descprepancy and say it refutes the whole claim.
    as has been asserted by the RAI report and the Independent UK.
    uhh, they didn't assert it, they reported it. Sheesh! LOOK AT THE PICS!

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Roy, you are correct but I like to get more info than was supplied by either source. Perhaps the US did use phospherous weapons in Falluja but the report seems rather biased in its presumption and its use of known anti-war activists as sources without identifying them as such makes it as dubious as it would be if Michael Moore had written the story. Editing by omission is a bad form of journalism but seems to be a staple of the news today, whether it is CNN, NYT, or FOX. Sailor, as far as Prof. Reynolds is concerned he does run a fair operation at Instapundit whether you agree or not. Just because he doesn't parrot your sources for talking points and you disagree with what he posts doesn't make him wrong or misguided. Compared to TL he is more than fair to both sides but that Kool-Aid you're drinking seems to cloud your objectivity. Being a Liberatarian I think you should be allowed to drink all ideological liquor you want, unmolested. Enjoy.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Ha Ha, quoting instapundit!?
    So expert statements don't count if they're found via Instapundit. Ad hominem much? The various articles and summary of the video (which I admit I haven't seen) mention no evidence of white phosphorus use on civilians other than an implied connection to unburnt clothes. That connection is attacked here (the Instapundit link) with a statement from an expert cited elsewhere on this subject by the Independent. It may not "refute the whole claim" but it does reduce the amount of evidence of white phosphorus use on civilians to zero. Isn't that noteworthy when TL is propagating the allegations?
    uhh, they didn't assert it, they reported it. Sheesh! LOOK AT THE PICS!
    Neither source cited any expert or theoretical support for the notion that unburnt clothes implies white phosphorus exposure. And pictures of burned bodies in unburnt clothes do not prove that unburnt clothes implies white phosphorus exposure. So, at best, they reported assertions. Maybe I misread something, or the writers didn't mention something from the video. So, Sailor, what evidence remains to support the allegation that white phosphorus was used on civilians? There's also a thread running through the article of simply wanting to classify WP as a chemical weapon after the fact. My only response to this is that the military uses weapons which kill people who are nearby when they go off. That is unremarkable.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#16)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    (The joke of mentioning "ad hominem" and elevating "expert statements" above was unintentional)

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Well, Here's what I found on it. 1'st...White Phosphorus (aka WP or willy-pete) is NOT an outlawed weapon. That said, there does seem to be a bit of lying in what the government has stated about it's use of WP in Fallujah. According to the government:
    Finally, some news accounts have claimed that U.S. forces have used "outlawed" phosphorus shells in Fallujah. Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. U.S. forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters.
    This would seem to conflict with eyewitness accounts as mentioned in the March issue of Army monthly periodical Field Artillery Magazine in an article called "The Fight for Fallujah".
    "WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
    Which government statement is the correct one? I'm inclined to go with the Army's eyewitness account. I'll leave the debating of the morality of WP as a weapon to others.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:54 PM EST
    It is truly sad to see that the US has fallen so far from its pedestal. We all know the US isn't and wasn't perfect but you could count on it to promote things like "freedom" and even at times, human rights. Yet, this administration has shown the exact opposite. Instead of working to end a genocide, they are accused of using chemical weapons. Instead of freeing prisoners of war, they have tortured and humiliated them. Instead of building allies to fight terror, they have given the world more to dislike the US. We can only hope that you recover. After all, if there is no justice in the US or in Europe, what can Latin American expect?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#19)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:55 PM EST
    I skipped around in the video and things make a bit more sense now. The video shows Jeff Englehart claiming that the gas from WP will burn skin but not clothes. Start watching at about the 18:30 mark. I think the various articles misinterpret Englehart as blaming the burns on contact with WP rather than contact with the resulting gas. The Daily Ablution post (the "Instapundit link") is ambiguous as whether he talked about contact with burning WP fragments or contact with gas resulting from burning WP. So the evidence supporting the significance of unburned clothing is upgraded from "none" to "Jeff Englehart's say-so". Anybody who types the name into Google will know as much about him as me.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:55 PM EST
    Roy, What about the link to the official US Army publication I provided? Seems to support the theory of WP being used as a weapon, not as "illumination".

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:55 PM EST
    Seems hard to believe you could use an area weapon like artillery-based Willy-Pete in a built up urban area and not kill some civilians, IMO.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    WP (calling it by a military nickname is disgusting) is only one problem. NAPALM PLUS is the other. Designed to STICK better than old Napalm. The use of these weapons, EITHER OF THEM, against a city because of what? Suspected terrorists? Four Blackwater mercs, with ZERO legal responsibilities or vulnerabilities, no code of honor, and no business being in Fallujah, were caught doing something by the population, and lynched. WHAT HAD THEY BEEN DOING? That's where the real lies start. The idea is that these vicious murderers for hire were just hanging around when they were viciously attacked -- so Donnie and Georgie said it was OK to pour down fire on civilians. In an occupation, such weapons are proscribed for obvious reasons. If such weapons (and other bombs) are going to be used, that's war, not occupation. So where is the Declaration of War? And where is the inquest into the actions of those Blackwater mercs on that day?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    The use of white phosphorus OR napalm weapons against innocent civilians is a Geneva Convention violation, outright. Just because the Pentagon thinks that's OK, and some racists at rightwing websites agree, doesn't cover the huge gaping lack of legal or moral ground. LBJ and Nixon both committed the same warcrimes. That's a big part of why Bush acts with the same slavering bestiality. He got his wish -- he's a violent sociopath along with the big boys. LBJ died, and Nixon resigned, and Reagan got senile. Bush Must Resign.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    Roy? If you were so concerned about the veracity of use of WP against civilians, why no comment on the official ARMY.MIL link I posted? Seems pretty definitive.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#25)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    Roy? If you were so concerned about the veracity of use of WP against civilians, why no comment on the official ARMY.MIL link I posted? Seems pretty definitive.
    Sorry, I just didn't have anything new to add. Your link convinced me the U.S. used WP on insurgents, as a weapon, not for smoke or illumination. It doesn't address whether A) civilians were affected by WP or B) whether the U.S. tried hard enough to prevent civilians being affected by WP. The civilian issue seems to be the major point of the video and articles. That, plus condeming the U.S. for using non-banned weapons on actual insurgents, which I just don't find very interesting. Two points for finding the "illumination only" vs "shake-and-bake" inconsistency though.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    Well, as I said before: Using Artillery-delivered WP in a built-up urban area, I really don't see how it could not result in civilian casulties. I have an even harder time seeing how someone couldn't see that as a likely truth. Point A would seem to be a given. Point B, well we can only hope.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#27)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    Using Artillery-delivered WP in a built-up urban area, I really don't see how it could not result in civilian casulties.
    If Englehart's description of the effects of the gas is correct, then I agree with you. Even if not, fighting in a city creates the risk of killing civilians regardless of what weapons you use, and I don't mean to dismiss the question of whether we were right to take that whatever risk we took. I'm about the blatantly regurgitate a right-wing talking point... the easily offended should scroll past... the currently-popular attack on Englehart can be found here. Much of it is obviously ad hominem or just plain sloppy reasoning, but there are some interesting points about potential contradictions in Englehart's statements. (It also, unfortunately, repeats the error of failing to distringuish between the effect of contact with burning WP and the effect of the resulting gas)

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    "Using Artillery-delivered WP in a built-up urban area, I really don't see how it could not result in civilian casulties." The Italian video shows multiple balls of fire raining down on the (a) city, as from HELICOPTERS. CENTCOM is awash in traitors and war criminals who lie for a living. The catalogue of their lies is ENORMOUS. So their 'information' on a website is worth nothing, except as another example of how the military creates myths to cover its crimes. "Relations between Vietnamese and Americans are excellent." -- Col. Colin Powell, report on My Lai (massacre).

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    "The video shows Jeff Englehart claiming that the gas from WP will burn skin but not clothes." Phosphorus burns on contact with hot air or water. It will spontaneously burn at summer temperatures. If it is burning, obviously it will burn clothes. If it is not burning, then skin contact will cause it to burn, thus clearing wounds of phosphorus is very difficult. What Hussein and Chemical Ali did to the Kurd villages was to fly in nerve or chemical weaponry at the upwind side of a village, and stampede residents toward machine guns at the other end. That's what the US probably did in Fallujah, since the racist thrill of matching Hussein crime-by-crime is the LOVE of USPNAC sociopaths.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:03 PM EST
    Oh, and WP does not burn on contact with water. You can, in fact, put out WP with water, but as soon as it dries it will ignite again.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#32)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:08 PM EST
    'May be,' as used here, is in relation to the expected exposure to PP from domestic sources. One would assume that the fatality rate of exposure goes up when city blocks are being carpet bombed with the stuff.
    Upon further reading, largely via the blatantly right-wing Daily Ablution: MSDSs say "may be fatal" about a lot of unimpressive chemicals. PP is basically an irritant. No fatalaties have ever been recorded due to exposure to the gas, even in military application. Nobody has alleged carpet-bombing, btw.
    It reacts violently with water in the body to form Phosphoric Acid, which is as corrosive as Sulfuric Acid or Hydrochloric Acid.
    If I remember high school chemistry, Phosphoric is actually somewhat more corrosive than Hydrochloric. But that doesn't necessessarily make it fatal. Concentration is key with acids. It just doesn't get concentrated enough to kill.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:09 PM EST
    The people who think this story is debunked because WP will burn clothes are very short-sighted. Of course, WP will burn clothes, it's an incendiary. P4O10 or Phosphorus Pentoxide on the other hand can burn skin via a chemical process and leave the clothes looking untouched in many cases. PP is formed when WP combines with the oxygen in the air. PP is very toxic and causes chemical burns. If it's inhaled you're in big trouble. It can also be absorbed through the skin. PP will react with the moisture in the air or with moisture on your skin, eyes, mouth etc to make Phosphoric Acid. If you had a jar of phosphoric acid and poured it onto cloth - you can be certain you will get an instant hole and the cloth will be no more. The reaction on people skin from the WP smoke is different. It will burn the skin and not the clothes. Don't get the WP smoke or PP confused with WP gas. There is very little gas given off WP when it combines with oxygen.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#34)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:09 PM EST
    PIK, Apparently you've done at least as much research as me; have you found a reliable source other than Jeff Englehart citing a death caused by PP due to WP?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:10 PM EST
    update:
    The Pentagon has admitted US forces used white phosphorus as "an incendiary weapon" during the assault last year on Fallujah. A Pentagon spokesman's comments last night appeared to contradict the US ambassador to London who said that American forces did not use white phosphorus as a weapon.
    [...]
    Asked directly if it was used as an offensive weapon during the siege of Fallujah, he replied: "Yes, it was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants".
    I guess all those burned women and children were "enemy combatants".

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Turns out the US Military DOES consider WP a checmical weapon:
    PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ. THE WP CHEMICAL WAS DELIVERED BY ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS


    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#37)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    The obligatory right-wing reponse to the above is that Hussein used WP because it's not a banned chemical, and because it's not likely to kill people, either of which would provoke a strong international response. The report backs that up (two links):
    IRAQ DID NOT USE NERVE GAS AS THEY DID IN 1988 ... BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF POSSIBLE RETALIATION FROM THE UNITED STATES (U.S.) LED COALITION.
    (Those two sources are dodgy, but I've seen the report before and it seems legit)

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    The US is a signatory to the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention, but denies that this covers white phosphorus.

    The convention bans the use of any “toxic chemical” weapons that cause “death, harm or temporary incapacitation to humans or animals through their chemical action on life processes”. It says that the effect is incendiary, not chemical.
    1st they denied using them. 2nd they admitted using them but oinly for smoke and light. 3rd They said they used them as weapons, but they weren't 'chemical.' 4th They have called them chemical in the past.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#39)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    That's a good point; my use of "banned" above needs heavy caveats.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#40)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    My personal take is you only lie like that if you know you were in the wrong.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    BTW, acording to Red Cross figures:
    ”Both of them are lying,” the Red Cross official said. ”While they agree on the 1,200 number, they are both lying about the number of dead fighters.” He added that ”our estimate of 800 civilians is likely to be too low.”
    Does that sound like there were any efforts to not target the civilians?

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#42)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    Measuring outcome does not measure effort. Both matter.

    Re: Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Roy, I respectfully submit, that if one used chemical weapons and 800 innocents died and 1200 hundred insurgents died , then one is a war criminal. Do you really think a 3 to 4 ratio is acceptable as 'collateral damage?'

    Italian Documentary Claims U.S. Used Chemicals as Weapon in Iraq | 42 comments (42 topical)