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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 05:06:08 AM EST
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The day job beckons, so I will only be checking in sporadically until Tonight. The conversation is your's until then. Enjoy.

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    • Friday Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Poor Dubya. All those mean people in DC who conned him into invading Iraq have done their best to wreck his chances of glory as the great visionary leader he really is, but never fear, he's got a secret weapon to restore his failing reputation. But never fear: In true Bush family style, scapegoats have been hand picked, and he's finally found a saviour. His mommy... Steve Clemons (The Washington Note) writes that Barbara Bush is really pi**ed at these bums and is preparing to "pull a Nancy Reagan" on Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Andy Card, and most of the rest of the WH gang, and save her son from the bullies. Oh sh*t, look out, boys, here comes Hurricane Barbara!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Lora on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    At the risk of repeating myself, I'm back to my theme of the greatest combination of politics and crime in this country: our election system. Why? Because A) I believe most readers here want a change in this country's leadership, and B) I believe all readers here would want assurance that the votes they cast are counted as they intended. I don't make charges of the likelihood of future fraud lightly; I look at the evidence. TalkLeft and fellow readers, there is plenty of it! The 2006 elections are less than a year away. Please look at the facts of electronic voting. Please consider that your vote may be discarded, flipped, or not ever counted, and you will have no way to ever find out. This is a non-partisan issue. It affects us all. Here's an eye opener. Some choice quotes: "The FEC makes the rules for voting machine certification...They never codified the FEC standards into regulations, so that the force of law cannot be applied to force voting machine makers to comply. The FEC standards are "voluntary guidelines"." " These labs were supposed to do source code and functionality reviews, but here's the catch: They are paid by the vendors." "The NASED [National Association of State Elections Directors] panel sometimes issued cert numbers before reading the reports, and has routinely certified systems with "not tested" and "untested" notations on the recommendation forms." If any of you think we have a democracy worth protecting, then the way are elections are run, who is allowed to vote, and how are votes are counted are crucial. All other causes pale beside this one, for power will never change hands unless we have the vote.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Edger - It looks like those Mrs. Bush would smite may be saved. Sad news for the Left. The latest FNC poll shows Bush's approval up 6% and this very interesting point.
    What would have happened if the United States had stayed out? Just over half of Americans (52 percent) think the world would be worse off and a 59 percent majority thinks Iraq would be worse off, if the U.S. military had not taken action.
    Those figures after 18 months, going back to the election run-up, of continual negative reporting by the MSM and claims by the Demos and Left show Americans have a remarkable understanding of the facts. Even more enjoyable:
    In addition, some Americans think there are still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. A 42 percent plurality thinks Iraq had weapons before the war and moved or destroyed them, while 28 percent think there were no WMD at all. Almost one in five (19 percent) think there are still WMD in Iraq. The current results are almost unchanged from opinions about a year and a half ago.
    You guys are going no where with the attacks. Common sense reigns.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Lora on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    sorry, I got the code wrong for the link. I'll try again. If I mess it up again, go to blackboxvoting.org and scroll down to 11-24-05: Turkey Day Leftovers. Or read any or all of the reports there. They are well researched and all are eye-openers. electronic voting

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Jim - The Americans may think this or they may think that. What counts, however, is what the Iraqis think. Maybe you should make a trip to Baghdad and ask *them* what they think.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    In all honesty it depends on which Iraqi's you ask but I'd says most Iraqi's are happy Saddam is gone, bewildered that things aren't better yet but don't want him back. I would predict that Pelosi and her crew are destined to drag the Dems down if they keep talking retreat, defeat or whatever. In other news jobs are up 215,000, growth is steady, holiday shopping better then predicted, gas prices falling etc..., etc... Merry Chrismas...oops sorry...Happy Holidays

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    mar writes: make a trip to Baghdad and ask *them* what they think Good idea, mar... Here's a snaphot of what the Iraqi's want

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Polls are great but voter turnout shows me that they want a better country for themselves. We'll see what they want on December 15th.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    see what they want on December 15th Good point, Slado... • less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security But that number might change by a few percent in the next two weeks? Heh. That'll make a difference, of course...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    "When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it." -- Dwight David Eisenhower


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    "We have an orientation that tends to make us think that everything is our responsibility and that we should be doing this," he said. "It is the Iraqis' country, 28 million of them. They are perfectly capable of running that country. . . . Our problem is that anytime something needs to be done, we have a feeling we should rush in and fill the vacuum and do it ourselves." --Donald Rumsfeld


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    edgar.... Our problem is that anytime something needs to be done, we have a feeling we should rush in and fill the vacuum and do it ourselves." -- Nice quote... too bad you Dems are in the same boat. Check a few blogs down a see all the hoopla about how Singapore deals with the death penalty and how all the libs are chomping at the bit over that.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Having Barbara Bush gunning for you is the stuff nightmares are made of. I wish Steve hadn't of posted this, I may wake up in cold sweats imagining her looming in my bedroom doorway with an ax. Perhaps I better rethink my habit of calling her little darling "Monkey Boy". Barbara, if you're reading this, trust me, I understand. The poor little man is doing the best he can with what God gave him, and I apologize if I have been too harsh on the poor dear. In the future I will try to refrain from insulting his lack of brains and integrity, and will focus my disdain on the evil doers around him that have maliciously taken advantage of his mental handicaps. Perhaps you could recommend Ala-non to those in his immmediate sphere, and they might know better how to treat the little dear. Posted on Washington Note by "Pissed Off American"

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    jim, all those poll results confirm is what i already knew: there are a lot of stupid people in this country. these are the people who willingly suspend disbelief, so they can continue to tell themselves what a great president mr. bush is, and what a fine job he's doing. they are so invested in these beliefs, that they must ignore the facts before their eyes, lest they suffer permanent psychological trauma. these are the same people who buy the brooklyn bridge. the economy is in such wonderful shape that delta airlines is crashing and burning, and GM is eliminating 30,000 jobs and closing 12 n. american plants. i'm not sure the country can long survive a great economy such as this.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    "How do you boil a frog? You don't throw the frog into a pot of boiling water, it would immediately jump out. You let the frog sit in warm water and slowly heat the pan until the frog boils to death. How do you erect the infrastructure of a police state? You incrementally condition both the police and the public that relinquishing liberty in the name of security is necessary because 'we live in dangerous times.' Be sure to make Grandpa remove his shoes at the airport but let that cargo through without inspection every time. The truth is that the mythical 'war on terror' was never meant to be won and can never be won because it doesn't exist. The real terror is being waged against ordinary people by our own government."


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Nice quote from John Danforth on huffington post:
    "When government becomes the means of carrying out a religious program, it raises obvious questions under the First Amendment. But even in the absence of constitutional issues, a political party should resist identification with a religious movement. While religions are free to advocate for their own sectarian causes, the work of government and those who engage in it is to hold together as one people a very diverse country. At its best, religion can be a uniting influence, but in practice, nothing is more divisive. For politicians to advance the cause of one religious group is often to oppose the cause of another.... As a senator, I worried every day about the size of the federal deficit. I did not spend a single minute worrying about the effect of gays on the institution of marriage. Today it seems to be the other way around."
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    cpinva... all those poll results confirm is what i already knew: there are a lot of stupid people in this country. Yep...that's the Dems montra...we are all too stupid to know what's best for us....so the Dems will step in and take care of it...LMAO That's why you lose & will continue to lose! these are the people who willingly suspend disbelief, Yes...very well put. That sums up the Dems stance very nicely

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Sigh...
    Yep...that's the Dems montra...we are all too stupid to know what's best for us....
    And the Republicans'. And the Greens'. And so on. I'd rag on the Libertarians', but they (we?) aren't organized enough to have a mantra.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by dead dancer on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    BB How would you like an all expenses paid vacation to Singapore! I'll even pack your bags for you!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Ten more dead marines today. All because PPJ and some others still believe there are WMD somewhere out there hidden away.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Pretty fu*kin' sad, isn't it Ernesto? Apparently another 11 were wounded in the same explosion, 7 have been returned to duty, so 4 more might not make it. What level of PTSD are these guys going to be dealing with when they finally get home? If they get home? And all for what?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    The truth in Iraq that you'll never see on the news here stateside.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    2,125 dead 16,000+ maimed and wounded Congratulations President Chimp.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    dead dancer... How would you like an all expenses paid vacation to Singapore! Been there...liked it. When can I expect the tickets? But, as a side...what does that have to do with anything? I made a statement accusing the left of sticking their noses in places they don't belong ...something they have no qualms about complaining that the right does (IE- Iraq).... I spoke the truth...prove me wrong.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    All because PPJ and some others still believe there are WMD somewhere out there hidden away. Yeah PPJ...it's all your fault! If you just didn't believe that...all would be ok!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    The nose of a human rights supporter belongs wherever there are violations of basic human rights. Hanging someone for a bag of dope certainly qualifies as a gross violation of basic human rights in my book. Besides, I don't see any lefties looking to invade, occupy, or carpet bomb Singapore over this tragedy, we just want to put as much non-violent pressure on Singapore as possible.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    BB...do you have any better reasons for why we're still over there piling up corpses/losing limbs? Didn't think so.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    Ernesto Results of Bush's policies since 9/11 1) No attacks on American soil since 9/11 2) Freed Afghanistan from tyranical gov't and established democracy. 3) Freed Iraq from tyranical gov't and are establishing a democracy. Obviosly criticisms for details and tactics are fair but that's the policy and those are the results. That's why we're there. Smiple as that. The only question is if you think it's worth 0 american soldiers lives or it's worth 100,000 lives or somewhere in between. I understand Ernesto that you think it's worth 0. Funny how an overwhelming number of people doing the job don't agree with you.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    • less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security Funny, also, what an overwhelming number of people this "job" is ostensibly being done for think about it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    Darkly - Let me see. Polls have margins of error.... gasp! I mean, who would have thought? So the real number is between 43% and 49%... Let's split the difference and...I know! 46%! Ernesto - It is a sad, sad fact that people get killed in war. And the more the Left criticizes, the more the terrorists will think they can win a political battle. All because the Left wants power. And that is one of the reasons we are still over there.. I mean if you don't want to know, don't ask. But don't misquote me. I think the WMD's were hustled out of the country, probably to storage places in Syria, while we were groveing to the UN and Old Europe for help. dead dancer - Can I go too? Mind you. First Class only. We do have standards, you know. BB - Know any good Chinese resturants? ;-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    That's why we're there
    Or so we are told. But you must admit that was not the reason given for going, and if it was the stated reason for going, I suspect the American people would not have supported it. I'm also skeptical freedom will ring in Iraq or Afghanistan. Freedom is more than elections; heck, Saddam's Iraq held elections. Freedom is rock solid, protected civil rights (like our Bill of Rights). Let's wait and see how free people are if and when we end the occupations. Let's see how the new governments respect freedom when not under the barrel of a gun. All in all, a pretty big gamble to take with other peoples lives.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    kdog - Freedom is more than elections? Well, you need other things, but without elections you can't have freedom. It is the bedrock.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    Well PPJ, if the WMD are in Syria, then what are we doing in Iraq? Could it be that you are full of crap again? Slado, Did Iraq attack us on 9/11? Or could it be that you are full of crap again, too?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    No seriously, here are your answers: We are still in Iraq because 1. the WMD are in Syria. 2. to prevent another 9/11 attack. and my favorite 3. because of "the left". If we would only stop being against the war the attacks would stop. Amazing.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    I thought we took Fallujah a year ago? Sorry, my bad.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    Glanton - I never did get a chance to answer on the Tuesday open thread about why the Holiday Tree is offensive. The answer isn't directly with religion... remember I don't have a problem with Happy Holiday's or Season's Greetings. The answer is because it is political correctness run amok. This isn't to say that offensive language should ba allowed. Three thoughts. 1) There is a line that should be drawn. However, the line has gone waaaaaaaaaay too far. The line should be based on how ROPP would see the intent. For example using a racial epithat (or any other epithat) should not be allowed, but there is no harm in calling someone from the Orient Oriental. That is a factually correct statement that means no harm, no different than calling me an American, Texan, or a Southerner. It is where the person is from. No harm in in saying I had a series of seizures in high school (PC is epiletic event(s)). Physically someone is seizing. No harm in deaf, mute, blind, etc. If they can't hear or speak or see then that's what they are. Arually or Vocally or Visually Challenged are the PC terms. As long as the old term is not used with malice, then what is the harm in saying the words? As long as the words are not used for malice, and ROPP would not see malice in the words, why should someone be stymed in their vocabulary because of some ethieral possible harm? 2) A second problem with PC is that liberals (and they are the genesis for PC traditionally) are speaking for a whole class of society, who may not want the new lable. For example, I'm fat. I know it. Don't call me horizontally challenged. That's offensive because it tries to tap dance around the issue and brings more attention to the weight. Ditto the NCAA and the football mascots this year. The indian tribes came out against the ruling. 3) Then there is the trampling of majority rights when they are not intending to offend anyone. Here's where Christmas Tree comes in. PC offends more people by calling it a holiday tree than a Christmas Tree. Yet, PC demands it be called a holiday tree even though more people are offended by the phrase than people who are spared offence. So offensive language is okay to be PC about, but a ROPP standard is the limit of where PC should be allowed to go. I'm more offended by the fact that the tree name was changed because of PC, rahter than the war on Christmas. The war on Christmas is being waged from a PC standpoint, not an attack on Christianity standpoint, though I have no doubt that the Madaline O'Hare and Michael Neaudow types are in the same camp in carrying out their war on Christianity.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    Darkly - Your computer is doing what? AI?? My advice is to give it two asprins and send it to CompUSA. You write:
    I've noticed that you haven't denigrated anybody's patriotism, understanding of history, use of the English language, or ability to reason logically today. Are your new meds kicking in, or is this some of the same memory problems that we've seen you display here before?
    Hmmmm. Now you accuse me of being on drugs, having memory problems and a host of other issues...I seem to remember you are the big attacker of spelling and english. At least until I started checking every comment. And then you tried being cute and write gibberish, but that didn't work, so you decided to shut up about it. Want another war?? And you forgot to call me a bully. I am so disappointed. Tex - Very well said. Ernie - Who knows? It is evident you have no thoughts about the matter that provide any hint of logic.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    Logic you say? What's logical about staying in Iraq because the WMD are hidden in Syria? Where's the logic in any of the reasons for people still dying over the missing WMD?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:39 PM EST
    Tex, I've been otherwise engaged lately, and just saw your post. Here's my response: 1 + 2)Nothing is funnier to me than the hyperbole with which some people characterize political correctness, a movement of sorts that originated at a collegiate level and proceeded to seep into the community at large. I was in the university system at UNC-Chapel Hill right at the time when the "movement" started, and am still in that system in Texas today. In between I have spent many years in the private sector as well. In all that time I have never heard anyone, in earnest replace "fat" with "horizontally challenged" or "short" with "vertically challenged" or any other such drivel. And I'd stake Tom Cruise's sonogram machine that you've never heard it used in earnest either. What I have often heard is people who don't know any better, usually people who vote Republican, act as if "liberals" really use such ridiculous language. The thing was always about recognizing the destructive power of labels, Tex. Words like "retarded" rightfully came under fire, words delineating race were rightfully pointed out to be potentially super-charged weapons. Like the "War on Christmas," that host of people who want us all to call you "horizaontally challenged" is a myth of which you need not be afraid, and towards which your indignation is utterly wasted. it's like being angry at Santa Claus. All of that being said, of course liberals have gone too far at times in their legitimate concern/sometime obsession over labels. The NCAA flap you mention is arguably an example of this. And I can see that the Right has done a good job of convincing you that something like this, or flag burning, or homophobia, are issues which should command your attention at the polls. This is too bad, what with health care problems and economic problems and the war and homelesness and on and on and on. But again, Howard Dean was right, with some people clearly, it's all about "God, guns, and gays." 3)So there are a few towns scattered here and there who call their public tree a holiday tree and there's maybe a single one-millionth of a percent of the population in this country who outright condemn the words "Merry Christmas," and you are deeply offended, and call this war? Wow. I've got news for you, Tex. Nearly all of us who are not Christians either A)Celebrate Christmas anyway or; B)We Don't. In no case do we care what you're celebrating or not celebrating, we have other worries altogether. And, as always, I find it interesting, all this obesssing over public display, all this seeing oneself as persecuted because one's religion is not written in broad crayon overtopp every public edifice and on and on. Roy Moore would be proud of you. But to me it smacks, more than anything else, of insecurity, of profound discomfort at the idea that others just don't give a damn about your personal religion, one way or the other.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:39 PM EST
    Wow. Everything Glanton said. Exactly.

    Friday Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)