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Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in a Year

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 10:22:06 AM EST
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Raw Story reports on a new Zogby poll finding that 72% of the troops in Iraq think we should get out within a year. One in four think we should leave now:

Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay "as long as they are needed"

  • While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazy
  • Plurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrown
  • Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11, most don't blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks
  • Majority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogation
  • Plurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipment
  • An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.

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    Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in a Year | 77 comments (77 topical)
    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 10:46:18 AM EST
    I am shocked that 90% think that the war is in retaliation for Saddams role in 9/11. Bush, Cheney and Mushroom Cloud Rice really duped the troops. This is shameful.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 11:09:03 AM EST
    Too bad the poll was not public. 75% of the soldiers would be punished for being 'for the terrorists'. That would amount to a de-facto withdrawal (mutiny). Funny to think that there could be any punishment greater that just being an American soldier occupying Iraq. Maybe the remaining 25% have cushy desk jobs or are fighting gods war. The Chimp god.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#3)
    by mpower1952 on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 12:20:43 PM EST
    Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11, Can you believe this? Ninety percent don't realize that Saadam had nothing to do with 9/11. That's what comes of having only Rush on the armed services radio, a VP who keeps saying we'll find the wmd and the idiot Bush. It's outrageous.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 12:28:37 PM EST
    Why do the troops hate America?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 12:35:11 PM EST
    "Why do the troops hate America?" Short Answer: Because incompetent morons are in power.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 01:55:04 PM EST
    American people want two things in Iraq: 1. Victory. 2. Get the troops home. If the Democratic leaders had any brains at all, they'd unite around the message that the key to victory in Iraq is to bring the troop home within one year. The Iraqis see us as occupiers who want to rule their country, take their oil, and establish giant military bases. So our presence is fueling the insurgency. The key to victory over the insurgents is to pull out troops out and support Iraq's government with equipment and money instead. Now THAT's going to be a popular message. And it's prety much true.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 02:46:27 PM EST
    Like others, I am shocked by that 90% figure. Does anyone know what the statistic for the general population? I wonder if the military is spreading these lies. There is something so tragic about people putting their lives on the line without even knowing why.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 03:20:35 PM EST
    Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11,
    Sounds like the troops are much smarter than you guys give them credit for. Oberon writes:
    the key to victory in Iraq is to bring the troop home within one year.
    Okay, if that is true, why not right now? What do you think we should do for the next year?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 03:31:47 PM EST
    "Sounds like the troops are smarter.." You dont kill tens of thousands because you and Sean have a hunch that you know more than the 9/11 Commission. Just for a change of pace, try a little strychnine in your Kool-aid next time.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    Just for a change of pace, try a little strychnine in your Kool-aid next time.
    No thanks, I prefer a nice glass of wine. I'll leave the death threats to you.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 03:55:15 PM EST
    You filter posts the way you filter information. It wasnt "a threat", it was a suggestion.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:04:39 PM EST
    An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.
    Sounds like the troops are much smarter than you guys give them credit for.
    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:23:41 PM EST
    Sailor - I don't think you have any military experience, because if you did, you'd understand that there are only two good duty stations. The one you came from. The one you are going to.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:23:51 PM EST
    This just in: the poll was slanted to Democrat soldiers.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#15)
    by Al on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:34:10 PM EST
    Jim, what was Saddam's role in 9/11?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:44:18 PM EST
    Al - Have you ever hard of an "enabler?"

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:49:20 PM EST
    Squeeky, It is up to us to make that poll public! Copy and Paste the entire article from Zogby, and send it to every TV network, Editors at major newspapers, and to your congressmen ! Fax or email, but just do it. Plus, we can't blame these young kids in the military from believing what they have been force fed by their officers in order to keep them in line! There would be a Revolt of our Military, if they ever were to clearly see, that there were NO WMDS, NO Al-Qaeda link, No 9/11 link, and NOW, no Democracy taking place in Iraq!

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:54:35 PM EST
    And Jim, I, too, would like to hear YOUR version of how Saddam Hussein, enabled Saudi Arabians who were financed and directed by Bin laden ! (btw, I was wondering if I would ever get to meet one of the last lingering 30% Bush approvers. )

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#19)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:27:32 PM EST
    Al - Have you ever hard of an "enabler?"
    Jim - Have you ever heard of a "fabrication?"

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:31:38 PM EST
    I would like to see the questions and the internals for that particular poll but I'm not curious enough to spend the $19.99 to find out. I used to work for Zogby as a weekend pollster and I can tell you that the client writes the questions to get the answers it wants and the pollster tweaks them as well. Considering that it was underwritten by the LeMoyne College Center for Peace and Global Studies I think it is pretty safe to say from what perspective the questions were asked. mpower1952, Limbaugh is on Armed Forces Radio one hour a day whereas NPR is on 24. Many other perpectives are also available there including the BBC. So perhaps the soldiers aren't as brainwashed as you believe but have a different opinion than you have.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:33:18 PM EST
    PamB-I agree with you that we should get this poll out to everyone. Sorry for my poor writing, but what I meant saying: Too bad the poll was not public. 75% of the soldiers would be punished for being 'for the terrorists'. was that if Rummy or his minions knew the identity of these soldiers they would all be court-martialed as traitors and we would remove 72% of our troops from Iraq effective immediately. The remaining 28% would have to leave soon after as it would be too dangerous for them to fight in such small numbers.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#22)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    Seriously, the idea of a lapsed Sunni helping Shi'ite extremists is like a genocidal Hutu dictator inviting a band of Tutsi rebels into his palace at night. Except it's even weirder than that, as there isn't really a difference between Hutus and Tutsis. Too bad PPJ doesn't have nearly as vast a knowledge of Muslim politics as he does military service......

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#23)
    by Al on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:45:46 PM EST
    Jim:
    Al - Have you ever hard of an "enabler?"
    Jim, that's too imprecise. How did Saddam enable the attacks on the World Trade Center?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 05:46:53 PM EST
    jimcee-
    Limbaugh is on Armed Forces Radio one hour a day whereas NPR is on 24.
    The young sailors I have talked to when they were in NYC adimtted that they were afraid to leave the ship as NYC was full of criminals and rabid liberals. When questioned further as to where they got the info about NYC they said the radio. All they were allowed to listen to was right wing radio aka Limbaugh. To listen to NPR would mark them a traitor. Imagine walking into a bar while some big sports event was on and asking if you could change the channel to watch the Nutcracker Ballet. The only nutcracker you would see would be the one right before you passed out from the pain. These Sailors had no choice as to what they heard and it was not NPR. ergo: They have unwittingly become part of your wingnuttia echo chamber as they, unlike you, do not have the luxury of hearing different points of view.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 06:05:54 PM EST
    PamB writes:
    I was wondering if I would ever get to meet one of the last lingering 30% Bush approvers.
    I am thrilled.
    "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.." (E Browning)
    But I am married and way too old for you. Sorry. Oh yes, your request.
    The 1998 indictment said: "...al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq
    Link
    In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddams son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.
    Link
    FITZGERALD: And the question of relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda is an interesting one. I don't have information post-2001 when I got involved in a trial, and I don't have information post-September 11th. I can tell you what led to that inclusion in that sealed indictment in May and then when we superseded, which meant we broadened the charges in the Fall, we dropped that language. We understood there was a very, very intimate relationship between al Qaeda and the Sudan. They worked hand in hand. We understood there was a working relationship with Iran and Hezbollah, and they shared training. We also understood that there had been antipathy between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein was not viewed as being religious. We did understand from people, including al-Fadl -- and my recollection is that he would have described this most likely in public at the trial that we had, but I can't tell you that for sure; that was a few years ago -- that at a certain point they decided that they wouldn't work against each other and that we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    Link

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 06:09:55 PM EST
    scar - I invite you to read my comments to PamB. Especially the one from Fitzgerald. (Yes, that Fitzgerald.) Al - See above. Squeaky writes:
    The young sailors I have talked to when they were in NYC adimtted that they were afraid to leave the ship as NYC was full of criminals and rabid liberals.
    Do you really expect is to believe that? I mean, really. I am LOL.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 06:24:01 PM EST
    ppj-the two sailors were from Texas and wound up loving NYC.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:08:13 PM EST
    deleted, commenter warned

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:11:02 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:18:44 PM EST
    Squeaky - I have no doubt a good time can be had in NYC. Been there and done that. Both as a sailor and a civilian. My problem is believing that two sailors would be worried about rabid liberals and criminals.... You realize, don't you, that these people go on liberty in cities all over the world.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:23:22 PM EST
    PPJ-They were very young. 19 at the most.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:41:45 PM EST
    Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11 . . . . No one wants a boss who's substantially dumber than themselves, even if that boss is C-in-C. So who's entering the military? People approximately as dumb as, or dumber than, Bush. Dumb enough to believe Saddam had some connection with 9/11 (besides being an Arab and a Muslim--all the connection some people need). Which makes it a lot easier for this administration to treat them as cannon fodder.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:43:38 PM EST
    Here is what one of the troops have to say about the integrity of taking responsibility for giving orders. No doubt one of the proud 72% wanting to get out of Iraq. From Army Interrogator Anthony Lagouranis:
    General Miller has denied recommending the use of guard dogs to intimidate prisoners during interrogations in Iraq. He also recently said he would not testify in the courts-martial of Sergeants Cardona and Smith, invoking his right to avoid self-incrimination. As someone who voluntarily spoke at length about my actions in Iraq to investigators, without a lawyer present, I can't have a favorable opinion of General Miller. By doing the military equivalent of "taking the Fifth," he's decided to protect himself, apparently happy to let two dog handlers take the fall -- a stunning betrayal of his subordinates and Army values.
    NYT op-ed via Laura Rozen The whole thing is worth reading.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#34)
    by Al on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:47:52 PM EST
    Jim, your quotes show nothing about Saddam having had any role in the 9-11 attacks. Picture yourself explaining to a maimed soldier upon his return to the States why he is incapacitated for life, why he will have recurring nightmares for the rest of his life, why he is lucky to be alive while many of his comrades are not. Picture yourself face to face with this man, and saying this:
    We believed a fellow in Al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem, Abu Harzai the Iraqi, tried to reach a sort of understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is why you lost your legs.
    You are one of those people who have lied to the soldiers so that they will go and do what they would never do if they knew the truth. These are not just lies; they are the worst kind of callous, manipulative lies.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#35)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 08:41:56 PM EST
    Jim, I'm still not seeing a cause for war. Hearsay from a defector and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not an imminent threat make. Lots of people don't like us. What's of more concern is how able they are to actually attack us. (Yes, I know, the balsa wood planes! Turkey farms! Crayon drawings!)

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#36)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 10:24:38 PM EST
    Have you ever hard of an "enabler?" Apparently the United States is down to only 34% "enablers." Why do you people "enable" corruption and incompetence in the White House? If you know.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#37)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 11:20:55 PM EST
    Why do you people "enable" corruption and incompetence in the White House? If you know.
    No, see, it's just the Washington culture of corruption. They're stampin' it out, honest! It's just kinda like in Training Day when Denzel informs the rookie that "in order to be truly effective, a narcotics officer must use and love narcotics" and pulls out some PCP. Wait... never mind, actually, it turned out that he really was just a corrupt SOB. I'm sure there's a better example somewhere of something akin to the brilliant Republican fighting-corruption-with-corruption strategy somewhere...

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#38)
    by john horse on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 03:46:54 AM EST
    Lets look at the big picture. At the beginning of this war, the majority of the American public and the overwhelming majority of our military personnel were in favor of the invasion. Now not only does the American public and our military personnel favor withdrawal but even some formerly pro-war conservatives, such as William F. Buckley, are coming to the conclusion that our occupation of Iraq is a mistake. This occupation is unsupportable. The handwriting is on the wall. Any benefit that we may have derived from this war has been far exceeded by the cost.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 03:50:39 AM EST
    Squeaky:
    The young sailors I have talked to when they were in NYC adimtted that they were afraid to leave the ship as NYC was full of criminals and rabid liberals. When questioned further as to where they got the info about NYC they said the radio. All they were allowed to listen to was right wing radio aka Limbaugh. To listen to NPR would mark them a traitor.
    LOL! I'll call bull on that! Of the nine ships I have deployed on, I cannot recall a time AFRTS radio was played at all. It is more for the army troops. Especially during the time Rush is on. Not during working hours! The only time AFRTS TV is offered on the ship is when there is something special on TV, A football game, world series, etc. Additionally, point out a sailor or marine scared of a rabid liberal. After a sailor of marine has had liberty in the gut in Naples, or the souq in Bahrain, or Liverpool, I don't see how one could be scared of liberty in NYC. Actually fleet week in NYC is one of the most anticipated times of the year. Quick name the ship ship where these scared sailors came from! times up. I thought so. Squeaky, I would invide you to the base where I am down here in hampton roads. I challenge you to find talk of politics or "traitors". One of the big no-nos is to p talk politics or relgion.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 04:29:37 AM EST
    In the past, people that still supported Bush were funny or odd. Now they are just disgusting. How in the world could anyone remotely still support Bush? Even William Buckley says Iraq was a mistake. My friend's daughter just got her orders to go to Iraq. I am so worried and scared for her. It appalls me that she could die or be maimed because Saddam "enabled" the 9/11 attackers. Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11. It says "ROLE" not spin "enable" blah blah blah spin light support maybe blah blah blah. It says "ROLE". Any moron would know that Saddam would never work with al Qaeda or vice versa. They were enemies. Saddam was secular and al Qaeda are religious freaks. I am just a housewife in the Midwest, and the first time I heard the tenant that Saddam had a role in 9/11 - I knew it was a LIE!!!!! Jim, your links do not say that Saddam had a role or even "enabled" in the 9/11 attacks. Fitzgerald in your links said
    We also understood that there had been antipathy between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein was not viewed as being religious
    And
    we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    Jim, antipathy does mean "enable". In the second quote, do you see the words "believe" and "tried". See, Jim, we don't know if this link is even true. Believe does not mean certain. I have been writing to everyone I can think of to push the Murtha plan. Please join me in doing this. Iraq is close to or in a civil war. A civil war is not our fight. We need to bring our troops home before we lose anymore of our true treasure - our men and women. Jim, you are not funny or odd.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 06:57:55 AM EST
    Squeaky - From your link:
    but I never got intelligence (mostly because 90 percent of them were probably innocent,
    I feel somewhat sorry for this guy, and hate to see the command structure ducking. But he doesn't help his cause when he says the above. Why? Because he has no way of knowing if they were innocent. He is making an overstatement in support of his story. If he will do that about this, then his other claims come into question. His credibility is badly hurt. Al - It is improper for you to take a quote I used from a third party and use it yourself in such a way that a reasonable person would assume that you are quoting me. The quote came, as you know, from SP Fitzgerald in testimony to the 9/11 Commission, who is saying that al-Qaeda and Saddam cut a deal. If you doubt him in this, will you also doubt him about Libby? As for explaining, that is society's job. Yours, mine, everyone. Perhaps if the Left quit complaining about the war the terrorists wouldn't keep on thinking they can win a political battle and give up. We would have less dead and injured to explain to, eh? scar - "Hearsay?" I hate to pop your bubble, but war is not criminal justice. And intelligence is about taking bits and pieces and putting them together. I gave you a defector saying something, and then from another source, someone saying the same thing. That you can't connect the dots indicates a need for study in the application of logic. debbiehamil - I invite you to read my reply to scar, directly above. If you can not see that Saddam made common ground with the terrorists then I think you are blinded by your anti-Bush and anti-war position. There are other facts, but most of all there is just plain common sense. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. That has been true through out history, with the most recent example being the Soviets and the US joining together to fight WWII. Neither side trusted the other, both spied on the other and both had diametrically opposed views of government, society, morals, economics, etc. Yet they fought together because it was in their common interest. And it was true with OBL and Saddam. Now I note in your comment you use the word "ROLE" and make a dither about "enabler" versus "role." Yet Molly NYC said:
    So who's entering the military? People approximately as dumb as, or dumber than, Bush.
    So while you parse words and Molly calls them dumber than Bush, they are off fighting a war the country authorized. And that includes your friend's daughter. I wish her and all of them well. And yes. They are smart enough to know how this started and how important it is for us to win.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 07:13:43 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Yes, one would think so, but they haven't been translated. Some interesting things are coming.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 07:38:22 AM EST
    Jim, nowhere in your links does it say Saddam made common ground with the terrorists. I wish you would READ your links and my posts. You would not know a fact if it hit you in the face. I have absolutely no patience with people like you anymore. How can you continue to support Bush and his failed policy in Iraq? Look around. It is falling apart. Even William Buckley said it is a failure. I was dithering that YOU were completely wrong in your spin that Saddam "enabled" the 9/11 attacks and that the links you provided proved that you were wrong. You used the word "enable" in your post as if "enable" was on the same plane as "role". As a lame rebuttal to my accurate account of history, you said
    And it was true with OBL and Saddam
    You continue to spew "lies" that have been proven to be incorrect. OBL and Saddam have NEVER fought together!!!!! Common sense would tell us that because Saddam was secular and al Qaeda are religious freaks they would be enemies. You spewed
    They are smart enough to know how this started and how important it is for us to win
    but, Jim, 72% of the troops in Iraq think we should get out within a year. I agree with Repack - Thank God the United States is down to only 34% "enablers."

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#46)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 08:27:11 AM EST
    scar - "Hearsay?" I hate to pop your bubble, but war is not criminal justice. And intelligence is about taking bits and pieces and putting them together. I gave you a defector saying something, and then from another source, someone saying the same thing. That you can't connect the dots indicates a need for study in the application of logic.
    That the "picture" formed by these dots was complete fantasy indicates a need for study in the application of reality. I suppose I'll continue with your analogy, though. You looked at the angry defector and the balsa wood plane and the trailer and the turkey farm and the nuclear blueprints drawn in crayon and, of course, the spooky aluminum tubes, and connected them into a picture of the gravest and most imminent threat to anyone in all of history. (Sounds like stuff you'd find in a backyard in Alabama, but what do I know?) Other people connected them into a picture of a pile of horse manure. Who was right? And before you try to rationalize what went wrong, was it really just a bad guess? Did nobody have the slightest inkling that maybe we were wasting a trillion dollars and untold thousands of lives for a shot in the dark? Logic is a fickle mistress...

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 08:51:03 AM EST
    debbiehamil writes:
    Jim, nowhere in your links does it say Saddam made common ground with the terrorists.
    Good grief. Please go back and read my 7:05PM comment. What do you think Fitzpatrick was saying when he wrote:
    we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    Or what the indicment meant:
    "...al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq
    And I must confess that I grow weary of being called "lies," "liar," etc., by those on the Left. I have copied direct quotes from newspapers, indctments and the 9/11 commission. Now, if you think they are lying, fine. But don't call me a liar. BTW - That is the exact "talking points" that the Left has used on Bush. He believed what he was told, and said so. Now you try to say he lied. That is not correct. And no, I did not use "enable" for "role." Al wanted to know what Saddam's role was, and I replied:
    Al - Have you ever heard of an "enabler?"
    Saddam found common ground with OBL, he paid rewards to the suicide bombers' families in Palestine, he probived training areas for terrorists and he allowed terrorist to use medical facilities. BTW - I never said Iraq "fought" with al-Qaeda. As for your "common sense" comment, you just ignore the fact that the US was a common enemy, and all of the information in my 7:05PM comment. Perhaps you didn't read it.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 08:54:40 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Well, they haven't. And your point is? The defector? As I noted to scar, that's one piece in the puzzle. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 09:05:49 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Well, they haven't. And your point is? The defector? As I noted to scar, that's one piece in the puzzle. Please don't put words in my mouth. And you have no idea, nor do I, how many, or big were the WMD's. Or when and how he moved them. Or what the surveillance was we had on him, or what it was capable of. scar - The subject was connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam, not WMD's. But nice try at changing the subject. People do that a lot when they can't win. As for what was (is?) in the backyards of Alabama, I'll let you ask the good citizens of that state. But whatever it is, it certainly isn't BS disguised as knowledge. That they leave to the Left.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#51)
    by Al on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 10:00:23 AM EST
    You know, Jim, I am not going to let this go, because it's very important. When I asked you to picture yourself using Fitzgerald's words, which you were quoting, to explain to a maimed soldier why he had had to suffer, you replied
    Al - It is improper for you to take a quote I used from a third party and use it yourself in such a way that a reasonable person would assume that you are quoting me
    You can't have it both ways. If you are using Fitzgerald's words to persuade us that Saddam was linked to the 9-11 attacks -- your original claim -- then you are making his words your own. You have to take responsibility for your use of Fitzgerald's words -- otherwise, don't use them. By imagining a dialogue between you and that soldier, I am making you responsible for your choice of arguments. This is not a debating club. The goal here is not to score points. We are talking literally about life and death issues. You would have us believe -- and by "us" I mean also the soldiers who have been sent to occupy Iraq and defend the occupation as best they can -- that the reason why those soldiers are there is to topple the regime of Saddam Hussein, because it was behind the 9-11 attacks. This is your claim, and it is a complete and utter falsehood. Of course, when pressed, you try to dance around the issue, mumbling some rubbish about "enabling" or "enemy of his enemy". It's no good, Jim. You have been caught red-handed. You said in response to the observation that 90% of the soldiers thought that Saddam was behind the 9-11 attacks
    Sounds like the troops are much smarter than you guys give them credit for.
    You don't have a leg to stand on.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 10:15:02 AM EST
    Jim, you are just spinning out of control. Your links only say what some people thought might be true - not what has been proven. Your hero Bush said there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 -- disputing an idea held by many Americans. Jim wrote:
    Yet they fought together because it was in their common interest. And it was true with OBL and Saddam.
    And
    I must confess that I grow weary of being called "lies," "liar," etc., by those on the Left.
    Your breaking my heart. The problem is you keep supporting a failed administration and a failed policy in Iraq, so you are reduced to spinning and twisting Republican talking points to try to make them fit reality. You have failed. The United States is down to only 34% "enablers." We are clearly in a big mess in Iraq. Bush is the commander in chief. He owns the MESS. Since you are such a big supporter and apologist for Bush, you own the mess too. Jim, 72% of the troops in Iraq think we should get out within a year.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 12:23:42 PM EST
    Looks like good morning, Baghdad finally got through. The truth will set you be. Gee, that's gonna be rough on rush. That's what did Pravda in. I doubt porky's gonna fair any better.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 01:31:41 PM EST
    Al - Wrong. I was quoting Fitzgerald's words as support for my opinion. There is a vast difference between that and what you claim. You used part of Fitzgerald's words and then added: "This is why you lost your legs." My point is that if you want to imagine something, use your own words rather than someone else's. There is a word for that. And that is not my "claim." Saddam was part of the problem. He was an enabler. So what you have here is only part of the claim. And yes, the soldiers, by recognizing that Saddam was part of the problem, is smarter than any of you give them credit for. BION, they are capable of complex thought, able to solve multi-layer problems and come to totally indpendent conclusions. You mention life and death decisions. Yes indeed. That's why I invited you to actually start supporting the troops. debbiehamil - The links support my position. They are there for you to read. You may think they are wrong, but that doesn't make them so. And that doesn't make them lies. "Lies" imply a willful act, debbiehamil. You know, like typing a false memo and giving it to CBS for broadcast. Still want to talk about lies? You speak of 34%. Lies is doing a poll that is so skewed that everyone who has looked at it with an ounce of logic either laughs or groans. But, hey what can we expect from the network that broadcast Rathergate? Still want to talk about lies? Lies is Left/Democrats attacking the WOT in every possible manner until they read a poll that the country doesn't want the UAE to own some terminals in our ports, and then you would think they actually are for defense. Still want to talk about lies? And yes, the Soviets and the US fought together. Becuase they had common interests. The common interest was, and is, the point. Since that is so apparent I have came to the conclusion that the Left won't accept it for only one reason. It removes one of their talking points. And while you're at it, tell me what will happen when we announce we'll be withdrawing in a year. Think maybe the attacks will immediately increase to keep the pressure on? How many service people will that kill, debbiehamil? Think maybe the attacks by the terrorists on the Iraqi population will immediately increase to insure they can't get a government in place until after we leave and the terrorists can seize control? How many people will that kill, debbiehamil?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 01:48:24 PM EST
    72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in a Year What.. only 72%? This is a surprise to some of you? I'm betting if they polled us during Viet Nam...the number would have been a lot closer to 100%. Not many soldiers (except a few twisted gung ho dudes) ever want to be in a war! (Common Sense) Jondee... you and Sean have a hunch that you know more than the 9/11 Commission LOL... that commision was a joke. They left out all the stuff about Clinton and his role in 9/11. What a whiterwater... I mean whitewash! I suppose you beleive what the UN tells you too?.... How about Dan Rather?.... LMAO

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 01:55:18 PM EST
    When the whole thing comes apart in the next couple of years, are you going to don drag and jump in the life boat with the rest of the rats? Yeah lets talk about how you lied in big.bold letters and arnmt man enough to own up to it, so much like your chickensh*t hawk heros.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 01:57:49 PM EST
    PPJ-Wonder what the troops would think of this:
    Q: But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?
    BUSH: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.
    empahsis mine Where's Osama 4 years, 5 months, 18 days and counting... via fdl

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:05:07 PM EST
    BB - Youve made me see the light; the glaring fact that the commission never consulted you and Rush proves that it was just part of the liberal conspiracy . LMMFAO!!

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:32:16 PM EST
    Let there be no misunderstanding. This administration stole the 2000 election and they haven't stopped lying since. Let there be no misunderstanding. Bush has never earned a thing in his life. He didn't earn his way into Andover. He's a Legacy. He didn't earn his way into Yale. Legacy. He didn't earn his way into Harvard. Connections. Arbusto. Daddy's rolodex. Harkin Energy. Daddy's rolodex. Insider Trading. Daddy's SEC. Texas Rangers. Daddy's rolodex. 2 percent ownership, controlling interest and managing partner. New Ballpark at Taxpayer Expense. Land for new ballpark. Eminent Domain. Trade Sammy Sosa and prospects to White Sox for Harold Baines and Scott Fletcher. And then proceed to get really stupid. Let there be no misunderstanding. Bush used his daddy's connection to get outta Vietnam and than skated on his commitment to the TANG. He doesn't deserve to be President anymore than the guy who plows my driveway. Actually, that's not fair to the guy who plows my driveway. He actually did go back to earn his GED. There's been a standing offer of 10 grand for years to anyone who can come forward and document that they actually served in the ANG with shrub and that he showed up on a regular basis. It remains unclaimed. Even with these lousy rates, they probably should have stuck it in an interest bearing account. Untouched principle and all that. The undisputed master of disaster. The worst president of all time.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:40:58 PM EST
    Jondee..... the glaring fact that the commission never consulted you and Rush Fact of the matter is....they 'overlooked' many of them. PERIOD! Do yourself a favor and do some googling. It's all right there. CBS won't show it to you.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#61)
    by Al on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:52:38 PM EST
    Jim, everything you say is by insinuation and innuendo. You try to use Fitzgerald's extremely awkward statements to the 9-11 commission which are actually quite meaningless, because you figure he's some sort of leftist hero and consequently no one will dare contradict him here. I couldn't care less about Fitzgerald's maybes and we-believed's and this-fellow-said's. He certainly didn't even remotely say Saddam was behind the 9-11 attacks. Which is what you were trying to imply, and when you were challenged on this, you tried to hide behind Fitzgerald, and say no, I only meant that Saddam sympathized with Al Qaeda, and he enabled the terrorists, and that Fitzgerald's hemming and hawing somehow supports your hemming and hawing. Go and play with BB over there, who thinks Clinton was behind 9-11. Hey, maybe Clinton and Saddam were in this together. Didn't Clinton shake Saddam's hand once?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#62)
    by Al on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:55:12 PM EST
    PS: Talk about enabling!

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 02:58:54 PM EST
    Cuz CBS is part of the conspiracy too; theyre so low profile they can sneak anyhing under the wire. We wont even get into how stacked with left wingers the 9/11 commission was; its obvious they were out absolve Hillary and Bill, cover up the Vince Foster connection, and make Bush look bad.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 04:11:39 PM EST
    Hey squeaky, gunna answer my post?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 04:33:24 PM EST
    Wyle-I met the two 18 or 19 year olds in Central Park. They were looking at a map of NY State and look lost. My friends and I approached them and started up the conversation. They were really innocent looking and sweet, not macho at all. Both from Texas. The info I related up post was all I got as I had to go off. My friend and his Wife spent the afternoon with them showing them around NYC. I have emailed him asking for the name of the ship, if he knows. I will get back to you on that.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:06:32 PM EST
    Al - Quit misquoting. I say that Saddam was an enabler of the 9/11 attacks, and thus is as guilty as if he had been on a plane. Is "enable" to complicated a concept for you? The links show the connection. You know it, I know and the soldiers know it. And sympathy? Let me see. Training facilities, medical services, agreements not to bother them.... charliedontsurf1 - There is no misunderstanding. Bush won Florida no matter how you recount. But in fact, since the game is over at the end of the ninth and there is no tie, the recounts don't count. You know, game over. Mighty Algore has struck out. Squeaky - Oh, since they are rational people and understand the concept of not using resources for something not important, they'd probably tell you: You want him? Go get him. We don't think he is the problem.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:09:47 PM EST
    Well, I think we've ascertained to a fare the well that the 34 percent who comprise nitwit nation aren't capable of complex thought, or ones to put God, Country, National Prestige or the health of the troops before idiot king.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:10:35 PM EST
    Well, I think we've ascertained to a fare the well that the 34 percent who comprise nitwit nation aren't capable of complex thought, or ones to put God, Country, National Prestige or the health of the troops before idiot king.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:19:45 PM EST
    ppj-
    Squeaky - Oh, since they are rational people and understand the concept of not using resources for something not important, they'd probably tell you:
    You want him? Go get him.
    We don't think he is the problem
    How do you square Bush's ealier statement with this one from today:link Obviously you did not bother to check the link I provided with the quote. Dear Leader's words are good as gold. Fools gold that is.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:24:09 PM EST
    Damn those conference calls! It's pretty sad when it looks like Brownie really is doin' a heck of a job and he's carryin' your sorry butt, mr preznit. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" "And Brownie, you're doin' a heck of a job!" Another day, another lie uncovered. Evidently, he figures if he never stops lyin', they'll all run together and nobody'll notice. Hey, it works with nitwit nation.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#72)
    by Al on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:33:39 PM EST
    Al - Quit misquoting. I say that Saddam was an enabler of the 9/11 attacks, and thus is as guilty as if he had been on a plane.
    Misquoting? I have quoted you faithfully. Let's see what Merriam-Webster says:
    Main Entry: en·able Pronunciation: i-'nA-b&l Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): en·abled; en·abling /-b(&-)li[ng]/ 1 a : to provide with the means or opportunity b : to make possible, practical, or easy c : to cause to operate 2 : to give legal power, capacity, or sanction to
    Saddam did not provide the 9-11 attackers with the means or the opportunity to carry out their attacks. Nor did he make it possible, practical, or easy for them to do so. Osama bin Laden, on the other hand, did enable them, in the sense of the dictionary definition. Why aren't the troops in Iraq pursuing bin Laden instead?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#73)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 05:45:20 PM EST
    Why aren't the troops in Iraq pursuing bin Laden instead?
    The world needs a bogeyman. Remember after Reagan single-handedly armwrestled the evil empire over a pitcher of beer how lost we were without a common enemy?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#74)
    by john horse on Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 03:39:34 AM EST
    BB re:"Not many soldiers (except a few twisted gung ho dudes) ever want to be in a war! (Common Sense)"{ First of all, this poll shows a significant difference in the attitutde of the military. The vast majority of soldiers and their families were in favor of this war (that is why Bush often used them as an audience). It says something about the weakness of Bush's justification for the Iraqi invasion that even this group has turned on Bush. Actually, your statement leads to a greater truth if you expand it. Not many people ever want to be in a war except a few twisted gung ho dudes! And we know who those twisted gung ho dudes are, don't we?

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 06:29:37 AM EST
    Squeaky - It is called stirring up the base. All politicans do it. And no one but the Left cares. Al - Wrong. By his actions he demonstrated that Iraq was a safe haven, thus encouraging and enabling them.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 06:52:54 AM EST
    Not many people ever want to be in a war except a few twisted gung ho dudes! And we know who those twisted gung ho dudes are, don't we?
    Yeah, the few, the dim, the bush leaguers.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:12:02 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 2, 2006 07:29 AM
    Squeaky - It is called stirring up the base. All politicans do it. And no one but the Left cares.
    Yeah, all 34 percent of them. At least someone does. You should be thankful.
    Al - Wrong. By his actions he demonstrated that Iraq was a safe haven, thus encouraging and enabling them.
    Which actions, letting himself get conquered and captured by the US? Yeah, that worked like a charm.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 01:33:37 PM EST
    I love it Hussein's an "enabler" and Bush (after all,he's been annointed) has no accountability whatsoever. Oh, and one more thing: Jim has no credibility.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Mon Mar 06, 2006 at 06:10:27 PM EST
    Wile E. Coyote-My friend got back to me and said that the bit about only being able to listen to Limbaugh was his. He heard it somewhere else. Sorry to repeat something that may have not been true. My friend inferred it because they were full of RNC talking points and afraid of NYC. They were told to stay in pairs because of kidnapping and terrorism. So why do 90% of soldiers in Iraq still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Maybe it has to do with limited choice of radio or as Jane at FDL just discovered
    Alex at Wonkette writes today about web sites that are being blocked by military computers in Iraq, as opposed to those that are deemed "acceptable": Wonkette - blocked O'Reilly -- OK Air America -- blocked Limbaugh -- OK ABC News "The Note" -- OK Al Franken Show -- blocked G. Gordon Liddy Show -- OK

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 06, 2006 at 07:32:28 PM EST
    Well, they've got the Red China thing down pretty well with the web sites. They gonna start runnin' tanks at protesters in DC? Turn Pennsylvania Avenue into Tiananmen Square West? They have nothing to run on or offer but fear itself.

    Re: Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in (none / 0) (#82)
    by squeaky on Mon Mar 06, 2006 at 08:13:55 PM EST
    Fear and Ignorance...

    Zogby Poll: 72% of Troops Want Out of Iraq in a Year | 77 comments (77 topical)