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The News From Iraq

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 08:41:10 AM EST
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by TChris

The news from Iraq continues to be gruesome:

Police in the past 24 hours have found the bodies of at least 85 people killed by execution-style shootings -- a gruesome wave of apparent sectarian reprisal slayings, officials said today.

The dead included at least 27 bodies stacked in a mass grave in an eastern Shiite neighborhood of Baghdad.

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    The News From Iraq | 33 comments (33 topical)
    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:00:49 AM EST
    Freedom is on the march!

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#2)
    by Peaches on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:04:28 AM EST
    If only the media would report the good news.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:13:43 AM EST
    How many lives, arms, legs, eyes, jaws, faces, and other pieces of human flesh must be sacrificed? I am an old war wounded Viet Nam vet and my heart and soul aches so much as I witness this carnage. What a terrible waste of humanity, all for some Neocon Chicken Hawk's ego and fantastical attempt to fulfill an Empirical Dream of how we could impale the middle east on the sharp edge of American power and force democracy and our dominance over the world. Pathetic! Damn the Cowards in charge who have embarked our great nation on this digracefull adventure.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#4)
    by Peaches on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:17:25 AM EST
    Wait, I knew I would find it
    They included four men shot in the head execution-style and hanged from electricity pylons in Sadr City, where two car bombs and four mortar rounds shattered shops and market stalls at nightfall Sunday as residents shopped for food.
    WE built those electricity pylons. And residents are shopping as life returns to normal.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:19:05 AM EST
    Circa 1876, TChris would have been advocating pulling Federal troops out of the south, on the grounds that the occupation was a quagmire (given ongoing levels of night rider/proto-klan killings). We all know how well that turned out - thanks to TChris' 19th century analogs, blacks in the south suffered another century of repression before the civil rights movement started.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:22:41 AM EST
    can someone please help me understand the difference between civil war and sectarian uprising?

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:29:40 AM EST
    Circa 1776 J Robertson advocates King George keep sacrificing english and hessian lives in a no win war with the relentless American Patriots/terraists. Circa 1975 J robertson demanded we sacrifice at least another 50,000 plus lives in the Vietnam Quagmire. note. The only condition was JR wouldn't have to risk his own life or his childrens lives to accomplish his goals.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#8)
    by desertswine on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:32:04 AM EST
    "I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." - Dick "Dick" Cheney

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:33:59 AM EST
    Jessica the difference is the media is intimidated and afraid to call a Duck a Duck so they call it a sectarian quacker bird.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#10)
    by mpower1952 on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:34:21 AM EST
    JR- your analogy of the US Civil War and the US war on Iraq has an obvious flaw: The US in the civil war would be analagous to Iraq not us. Iraq today has people fighting for their vision for their country just as the US Civil War had the north and south fighting for their vision of their country. When you're fighting for your own country you do not give up. However when you have forced your will on another country and met massive obstruction you are honor bound to admit your mistakes.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    I know this probably bad for "business" and all....but is anyone giving any thought to dividing modern-day Iraq into 3 countries? You know, like what should have been done after the end of British Imperialism. It's fairly obvious that the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds can't coexist as one nation. All of the American military might and blood spilled will not change that simple fact. Get their respective leaders together, negotiate the division of what's left of the assets, and build three nations. Just a thought. The current course seems to lead to more and more misery.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 10:55:17 AM EST
    Posted by James Robertson March 14, 2006 10:19 AM
    Circa 1876, TChris would have been advocating pulling Federal troops out of the south, on the grounds that the occupation was a quagmire (given ongoing levels of night rider/proto-klan killings).
    We all know how well that turned out - thanks to TChris' 19th century analogs, blacks in the south suffered another century of repression before the civil rights movement started.
    Well, jr, if you'll recall, that was and is a part of this Country so in order for your analogy to be apt, we'd have to be completely out of Iraq and those would be Iraqi troops in our place, or those would had to have been English of French Troops occupying the South in 1876 instead of us. Now, since clearly, neither case is true, you can see how your analogy falls flat once again, but you keep trying. Always a pleasure.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    Posted by jessica March 14, 2006 10:22 AM
    can someone please help me understand the difference between civil war and sectarian uprising?
    Karl Rove evidently likes the sound of sectarian uprising better. That's what they called it in Northern Ireland. The Brits thought it didn't sound quite so big. More like a skirmish. Civil War sounds like all hell is breaking loose. Clearly, that's not what's happening in Iraq. Bush has stated so.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#15)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 11:37:50 AM EST
    We all know how well that turned out - thanks to TChris' 19th century analogs, blacks in the south suffered another century of repression before the civil rights movement started.
    Actually, most people blame repression on the racists, not the liberals.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    Actually, the "insurgency" isn't exactly what what so many people seem to think it is. It's a combination of: -- dead enders from the ancien regime -- some of the 100,000 criminals let loose by Hussein -- people in the pay of Iran -- sectarian violence, part of the ancient Sunni/Shia schism It's not a civil war where an identifiable part of the population is trying to create a new nation out of a part of the old (unless you consider the non-violent partition managed by the Kurds to be that). Calling it civil war is silly. It's more like the tribal crap you see in the Balkans than like a civil war, but with Iranian money tossed in like gasoline.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 11:50:48 AM EST
    Calling it civil war is silly. It's more like the tribal crap you see in the Balkans than like a civil war, but with Iranian money tossed in like gasoline. Heh. And this little racist brainfart from someone who pretends to care about civil rights for blacks. Btw, the "tribal crap" in the Balkans was all about partition.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#18)
    by Slado on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:51:06 PM EST
    kdog The problem is the Sunni's won't have any oil if they are only given the parts of the country where they have the majority population. Also Baghdad is the Toronto of Iraq. By far the biggest city and the center of the whole country. Who do you give that too? If you gave it to the Sunni's they'd have the biggest city in the country with lots of hostile residents with no way to fund it. If you tried to split it up you be creating Gaza/Palestine East as the Sunnis' Shiites fought over this block or that block. Plus youd then have to help the sunni's and Shiites form (2) parliments and the Shiites would have even less incentive to not become Iran lite. The ship has sailed on what we should do. We have to help them form a central government.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 01:30:42 PM EST
    Sure, Slado, that'll work. I'm sure nothing will be perceived better than having US DETERMINING WHO TO GIVE BAGHDAD TO. Yeah, that'll go over real well. Especially for dessert, when it becomes common knowledge that we're putting together a coalition government for them we think will work. Hey, no problem. These people in the midst of a Civil War based on Centuries old tribal and sectarian differences in that once fertile crescent, between the Tigris and Euphrates. The Birthplace of Civilization. Who had their National boundaries drawn on a Winston Churchill whim less than 90 years ago, will be no doubt thrilled to have us dictate their fate for them. What's not to like about the idea?!! And people have doubts about republican foreign policy. Go figure.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 01:37:12 PM EST
    Kdog, Paul in LA mentioned Henry Kissenger's desire to see Iraq partitioned many moons ago. It's believed that Turkey would never allow a Kurdish nation. Iranian support of Kurds also increases the tension in that area. Then there's the oil rights and distribution. Hell, Saddam couldn't even keep from trying to take Kuwait, which was the SECOND greatest military blunder since Napoleon. We always tend to see geography in terms of lines and numbers. Others see it as tribes and feifdoms. INHO the people that live in that region are smart enough to work this out for themselves. It's just that they have never before had the opportunity. It was always decreed to them. Unfortunately, when Bushco wiped the slate clean they failed to provide a secure, functioning environment for the people of the region to form a central government. This has resulted in much more bloodshed than should have been necessary, even if this HAD been necessary. In the meantime, in view of the success of the US military maintaining security in Iraq, our presences there is now about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Unless you are a war profiteer.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 01:57:40 PM EST
    Calling it civil war is silly. It's more like the tribal crap you see in the Balkans than like a civil war, but with Iranian money tossed in like gasoline.
    Well, you do know silly. I'll give ya that much. Golly, two warring factions slug it out while another sits on the sidelines waiting and watching as they beat each other up to see who prevails before they pounce on a weakened opponent as interested parties bet and finance the competitors. Gee, that's gotta be a historical first. In sports, they call it the playoffs. In politics, it's waiting for your opponent to emerge from his Party Primary. In National Political Upheaval, it's called CIVIL WAR no matter what some shrub shills may wish.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:16:31 PM EST
    ED: And to think the same generation that protested the Viet Nam war got us into this one! If I were you, I don't know how I could stand it...

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#23)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:36:14 PM EST
    Actually, the "insurgency" isn't exactly what what so many people seem to think it is. It's a combination of: -- dead enders from the ancien regime -- some of the 100,000 criminals let loose by Hussein -- people in the pay of Iran -- sectarian violence, part of the ancient Sunni/Shia schism
    Okay, and, what's your point? The first three are pretty damn minor. The Sunni/Shia split, on the other hand, cannot be ignored. Are you implying that sectarian violence somehow can not lead to civil war? Might want to rethink that one.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#24)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:54:21 PM EST
    Do you even know anything about the Shi'a/Sunni schism, JR? I'll try and explain it for you. The vast majority of Arabs are Sunnis, secular and progressive, rather like Catholics here in the US. Shi'ites, who only hold a majority in Iraq and Iran, are your backwards fundamentalists who believe that their messiah is coming, oh, any day now, and they should try to expedite the apocalypse. Sound familiar? Let's imagine if, say, the US was in a similar situation. Most of the country resembles John Kerry, and then you have Alabama and Mississippi where people are basically clones of Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps. And man, those idiot fundies are just itchin' to screw things up for everyone else. They're in luck, because a foreign power helps put Falwell himself in charge of Alabama, and the state promptly turns into a backwards, oppressive sh*thole for the record books. The rest of the nation is shocked and dismayed, but the fundies in Mississippi can't wait to get rid of their Catholic overlords so they too can have a hellish theocracy. Fast forward a few years, and the same foreign power comes in and knocks out the Catholic leadership. But this time, the foreign power insists that there is to be no theocracy-makin' here, and they're going to stick around for a while to make sure. Well, this simply won't fly with the fundies. They believe Jesus himself is going to come down as soon as they take over, so if that means killing all of the hellbound Catholic minority and the satanic occupying power, so be it. And they've got time on their side, as well as surreptitious aid from Alabama. This is not what most people would consider a good situation.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#25)
    by rMatey on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 06:31:59 PM EST
    Gentlemen, I think the civil war has just started.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 07:12:00 PM EST
    Exactly what does an 'ancien regime' mean!? Since the country was founded by the british in 1923, and the same brits imposed a minority monarchy on the whole territory, against the wishes of the other sects, I'm curious as to what this commenter had in mind.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 07:54:51 PM EST
    Don't ya have to have a mind to have somethin' in it? Methinks we're dealin' with one of the havenots here, unfortunately.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:29:58 AM EST
    K-ash
    And to think the same generation that protested the Viet Nam war got us into this one! If I were you, I don't know how I could stand it...
    I don't think you could call Bushbag, ViceDick and the Neocons
    The Generation that protested Vietnam
    These were the Chickenhawks and cowards that called themselves the Silent Majority supporting the vietnam war of my generation. Those same set of yellow bellies got us into this Damn fiasco. I protested the Vietnam war! I also protested this horror. I think it's important to set the record straight MY generation did not get us into this mess.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:57:43 AM EST
    Che writes:
    Unfortunately, when Bushco wiped the slate clean they failed to provide a secure, functioning environment for the people of the region to form a central government.
    Uh, that's what we're trying to do. So far they have had three elections. We also have people in the US calling for the removal of our troops, attacking Bush over the war, etc. This encourages the terrorists to hang on and keep killing.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#30)
    by john horse on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:06:22 PM EST
    For those of you who may be somewhat confused by what PPJ is trying to say, allow me to translate. We are making progress in Iraq. Its the antiwar critic's fault that we are losing.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#31)
    by john horse on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:26:48 PM EST
    If you want to know why things are going so poorly in Iraq, check our the words most often used to describe George Bush from the recent Pew poll (via Eschaton): Incompetent, Idiot, Liar.
    The single word most frequently associated with George W. Bush today is "incompetent,"and close behind are two other increasingly mentioned descriptors: "idiot" and "liar."
    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:31:46 PM EST
    Three elections and they have no central government, and none is in realistic sight. What we're trying to do is what we've ALWAYS tried to do abroad in these situations -- muscle other peoples and other nations into the kind of government we will allow them to have. The idea we're going to end up with another Iran is looking more and more true. Unless we'd prefer to occupy a powder-keg forever.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:59:38 PM EST
    I think that the fact that we kill innocent women and children in bombing raids has a lot more to do with why the citizens of Iraq hate us than articles in newspapers they don't see.

    Re: The News From Iraq (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:40:40 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 15, 2006 07:57 AM Che writes: Unfortunately, when Bushco wiped the slate clean they failed to provide a secure, functioning environment for the people of the region to form a central government.
    Uh, that's what we're trying to do. So far they have had three elections.
    And they have no Government to show for it, about 80 bodies/day and a Civil War to show for it, and all signs point to things getting worse instead of better as the promised draw down turns into an increase in the number of US Troops on the ground as things get progressively more dangerous and the media's supposed to show 2 year-old footage of US troops rebuilding a school. Of course, they're not supposed to mention that we leveled it in the first place or that it's probably been leveled again at least once and that even if it's currently standing, it's too dangerous for anyone to send their kids to school there because things are not getting better, they're getting worse all the time.
    We also have people in the US calling for the removal of our troops, attacking Bush over the war, etc. This encourages the terrorists to hang on and keep killing.
    Well, that'll happen when an unpopular and illegitimate President has been exposed as a liar and a fraud for lying the Country into that unpopular illegitimate War. And there's the fact that in a free society, you're allowed to do that.

    The News From Iraq | 33 comments (33 topical)