home

Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:48:32 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) made some great comments yesterday in the Senate on immigration reform and Sensenbrenner's bill. It's at page S2402 of The Congressional record, available on Thomas. Here's some of what he said:

It is an interesting story, as we watch the news reports, of the people who are gathering across the United States. Over 110,000, some say close to 200,000, came out in Chicago a few days ago; 500,000 in the city of Los Angeles. There is hardly a major city in America where people have not stepped forward because of their concern about this immigration bill.

Who are these people? They are people we always see but seldom come to know. They are our neighbors. They sit next to us in church; they send their kids to the same school as our kids. They probably cooked your breakfast this morning. They probably washed your dishes and cleaned your hotel room. They are watching your children at daycare and they are changing your aging mother's soiled bed in the nursing home. They make sure your putting green is perfect, and they stand for hours every day in a damp and cold place, watching a production line of chicken carcasses come by, so you can invite friends for a barbecue this weekend.

They often live in crowded homes. They deny themselves many things. They sacrifice for their children and in the hopes that, at the end of the week, they might be able to send a small check home to their families in other countries. Their children are in our military--thousands of them, wearing the uniform of the United States of America. Some have been killed serving our country. At their funerals, people in uniform come forward and present to the grieving parents a flag as a token of their heroism and bravery and their commitment to America.

Now from this Republican-controlled House of Representatives, we learn the way to treat these people is to declare them criminals--criminals. These 11 million undocumented people, according to the Sensenbrenner bill which passed the U.S. House of Representatives, would be branded and prosecuted as aggravated felons, treated the same as armed robbers and rapists--11 million people. That is the bill that came over.

I'm still trying to find the actual legislation passed out of the Judiciary Committee. If anyone has a link to it, or can e-mail it to me, I'd appreciate it. [Update: From Squeaky in the comments, this is the first version of the bill, called Chairman's Mark (pdf).

In all the news accounts, I haven't found one that mentions the bill number. Senator Specter (page 2408 of Congressional Record) said:

Mr. President, the Judiciary Committee has just concluded a markup on the immigration bill. For those who may be watching on C-SPAN2, a markup means we take a bill, which was the chairman's mark in this situation, a bill which my staff and I have constructed, taking parts of legislation introduced by Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy and legislation introduced by Senator Kyl and Senator Cornyn, and amalgamated it into one bill with some other provisions which had been suggested by other Senators.crafted from those introduced by Sen. Kennedy's and McCain's and Sen. Kyl-Cornyn's.

I can find the originally proposed bills, but not the composite passed yesterday.

The full Senate will begin debate on the new bill on April 6. The Republicans in the Senate are going to demand a lot of changes. Specter said it's not cast in stone and they are willing to make changes.

We are open to suggestions, as to any Senators who have ideas. We are not in concrete. If somebody has better ideas, there will be full opportunity to offer amendments on the Senate floor.

We have to stay on the Senators so they don't back down on the provisions for the undocumented.

< Leopold: Fitz Almost Ready for New Indictments | Moussaoui's Last Minute Offer to the Feds >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform | 53 comments (53 topical)
    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 07:42:45 PM EST
    The bill number is HR 4437, and the McCain-Kennedy Bill aka the The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act of 2005, from which the Senate Amendments drew to a great extent is S. 1033. I haven't found the Senate Judiciary Markup version of HR 4437 either, which makes it difficult to tell what, if anything, remains of the original House bill.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:01:18 PM EST
    H.R. 4437 is Sensenbrenner's bill and Specter said they didn't use it. They used his bill, Kennedy-McCain's and Kyl-Cornyn's. Yes, it's the one that they crafted and passed yesterday I'm looking for. Thanks, let me know if you find it.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:05:29 PM EST
    From the National Immigration Law Center
         The bill being considered by the Judiciary Committee is a 305-page behemoth, drafted by the committee's chair, Arlen Specter (R-PA).   This bill, referred to as the "chairman's mark," is  not numbered because it has not officially been introduced.  Its text and some analysis of the bill can be found on our website -- here.  Its titles include (our descriptions, not the actual titles used in the bill):
    link

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:28:05 PM EST
    I'm not sure why if you enter this country illegally you wouldn't be 1) in this country illegally and 2) if you are breaking the law by being here then you are a criminal and are subject to the applicable laws. Heck, if I was found in Canada without support I would be deported back into the US replete with the obligitory '..and don't come back' diplomatic finger wagging and a possible cameo on a future CBC report on the 'Illegal American Immigrant: Threat From Below the 49th'. Heaven knows what would happen to a destitute Yank in the Mexican immigration system. The Internationists among us seem only to find fault with the American immigration policy but then turns a blind eye to other countries' more stringent entrance immigration policies.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:46:18 PM EST
    jimcee, i'd suggest much of it stems from the fact america is different, our origin is as an immigrant nation: give us your tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free, all that stuff. agree or disagree with american immigration policy, this will always remain our origin. a unique and indispensible one. and all the laws in the world can't stop a tide of humanity. you can try to label them all criminals in a technical sense, but that will solve nothing and doesn't come close to addressing the real issues. we can try to design a better system to deal it, and we certainly need one, but we are not going to make all those human beings disappear anytime soon. blame the mexican government, mexican society, the american government, american citizens and business, blame whomever, we're still facing a massive tide of humanity. and we will be for some time to come.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#6)
    by jen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:14:29 AM EST
    So, Jimcee, how many of your family and friends have had loved ones denied entry into the US? My brother no longer lives here because his girfriend could not get a TOURIST visa. She walked into the consulate, paid her 100$, gave the receptionist her filled out application. The receptionist looked at her and dismissed her with a curt "you won't get it" and took the non-refundable application and fee. My brother now lives in Brazil. My friend's son (a veteran of Gulf war 1 and son of a veteran of Gulf war 1) is separated from his wife, who is not allowed to enter this country. I havent even begun to talk about immigrant friends and extended family

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:21:45 AM EST
    I'm in concurrence with Jimcee on this one. Specter says:
    Now from this Republican-controlled House of Representatives, we learn the way to treat these people is to declare them criminals--criminals.
    Well, they are criminals. It may be inhumane to treat them as such because they pick our strawberries for rock-bottom wages, but that doesn't mean they aren't here illegally. This country allows the most immigrants legally than all other nations combined. Do Mexicans have special status over other nations? Well, apparently they do, since the most visas were given to Mexicans. It seems that nothing will satisfy the left on this issue but free bus rides from Mexico complete with papers for all who can manage to get on the bus. There are legal means to enter the country and work here. Allow people from other countries besides Mexico the same opportunity to become American citizens.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#8)
    by Punchy on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:38:25 AM EST
    So many hypocrites. If we're getting technical, then we're all criminals, guilty of breaking speed limits or coasting through some rural stop sign. Not using a turn signal. Jesus.... The question is...does their actions/employment outweigh their criminal status (a felon? Seriously?)? If you're in the agriculture, meat-processing, hotel, or construction industry, the answer is surely yes (Vegas was built on such labor). Expect the cost of a LOT of things to increase if indeed, we "felon-ize" all these individuals.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:42:30 AM EST
    Dadler, I'm not disagreeing with you on the principle (and yes, I know that may come as a surprise), but how are Mexico and Canada, or any country in North or South America for that matter, any different? All of those countries were formed by immigrants. Even the indian nations were, technically speaking. Is it simply the plaque at the foot of the Statue of Liberty which changes the rules for the U.S.? Or is it that we have declared ourselves willing to take in people that makes it wrong for us to set any limits on how we do so? I'm not opposed to immigration; it is, after all, how my family got here too. And lord knows there are a lot of bad ideas out there about what we should be doing about it. But an open border doesn't seem like the right answer either.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:59:51 AM EST
    Jen - The question becomes, what was the reason his girl friend was denied a tourist visa, and the real big one was why the wife of the son of a friend is not allowed in. Denying a wife entry is very unusual. Can you share the reasons, or are we supposed to think that the government is just being hateful and mean? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:23:54 AM EST
    I think it is possible to build a wall along the Mexican border. It is only about two thousand miles long. Look at The Great Wall in China. If the Chinese were able to build a wall of four thousand miles long several hundred years ago without any modern technology, why wouldn't Americans be able to build a wall of half the length now with all the modern technology? A wall like The Great Wall in China will not only protect Americans, it can also become a tourist attraction and provide jobs for Mexicans. They can work on the building of the wall. They can also work on making it more attractive to tourists by doing things like building Little Mexicos along the border. They can even build tunnels underneath the wall like those tunnels built by the Palestinians in Gaza. The tunnels can be a tourist attraction as well.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#12)
    by jen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:40:03 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ The receptionist didnt like her?? really, we wish to heck we knew. your guess is as good as mine. and from our experiences and from those I've heard over the years, this kind of thing is not unusual at all.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:45:22 AM EST
    Dadler...sez blame whomever, we're still facing a massive tide of humanity. and we will be for some time to come. That's exactly why something needs to be done ASAP. It's out of hand and will only get worse.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:53:34 AM EST
    Of course a wall will work. Those who oppose it don't really want to close the boarder. But we have to stop the flow. A wall will go a long way to helping that.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:04:31 AM EST
    The Wall didn't work in China 2500 Years ago. It was an expensive flop then. It'll be an expensive flop now. Christ, has any repo, anywhere, finished the 5th Grade! Ya sure wouldn't know it by your knowledge of history, or, more to the point, complete lack thereof.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#16)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:42:44 AM EST
    Ask the residents of East Berlin how well the wall worked. Ask the Palestinians how well the Isreali wall works. I can't believe liberals are actually arguing against a government policy that will cost lots of money and supposedly won't work :-) The reason people oppose a wall is because it will work.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:04:37 AM EST
    Jen - Really, that is no answer. I am sure she can ask for an explanation. But even more so, what about your friend's wife?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:13:09 AM EST
    Here's a nice site called Worldmapper which re-sizes countries on maps according to subject. Check out map #17. Apparently no-one actually immigrates to Mexico (well, practically). No point to make here, actually, it's just interesting.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#20)
    by jen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:35:40 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ, you are a trusting soul, its kinda cute

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:49:24 AM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 March 29, 2006 09:04 AM The Wall didn't work in China 2500 Years ago. It was an expensive flop then. It'll be an expensive flop now. Christ, has any repo, anywhere, finished the 5th Grade! Ya sure wouldn't know it by your knowledge of history, or, more to the point, complete lack thereof.
    Boy Smugcharlie, it must be tough always being the smartest guy in the room. No, the wall did not keep out the invading hordes of barbarians, but it sure slowed them down. If the Mexicans want to attempt to breach the wall a la Attila, let them have at it. They would be serving notice that they are, in fact an invading horde OF barbarians and we would be free to defend our country with any available means.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:58:56 AM EST
    Of course the Mongolians breached it, narius. They weren't the only ones. Your predictably lame attempts to change the subject notwithstanding, the fact remains that it can't be defended for the entire length of the Wall and forces can be concentrated in weakly-defended spots making it easy to breech and rendering it an expensive failure. Now, just which part of that is givin' you trouble? This psychotic contention that we should now emulate East Germany on our Southern Border while ignoring our Northern Border will never fly and as someone who lives in a Border State, the Business Community will never stand for a Wall on the Northern Border because over 50 percent of their business is Canadian. Especially, now that the exchange rate is favorable. It is too much hassle now to cross the border. They're not gonna stand for anything that makes it worse when there's no evidence that it's needed. In case you hadn't noticed, Shrubco and most of the repos care more about the Business Community than they care about you loons. They've got a hell of a lot more money than you guys do and if these guys care about anything, it's cash. It sure as hell ain't the likes o'you. You wacks think the Dems take the Blacks for granted, the repos figure you wacks will fall in line soon enough. All they've gotta do is make some noise about assault weapons and flag burnin' and you'll be back in the fold soon enough. That's why they aren't buyin' tancredo's no nothin' anti-immigrant line like you guys are. They want cheap labor. End of story. That's all they care about. They don't give a damn about you.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#23)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:18:23 AM EST
    Speaking of history, All you Reagan fans. You remember him standing in West Berlin, don't you? He was talking about free trade and democracy then. What did he say to Gorbachev
    General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!
    That someone would even suggest building a wall is ludicrous. That a Reagan Aficionados would suggest it is very perplexing.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:53:54 AM EST
    Peaches, We wanted the wall down in Berlin to reunite white folk. No way we're gonna let brown folk reunite on our turf. It's all good for everyone... except us.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 11:45:02 AM EST
    I know this is well-trodden soil but once again, to reiterate: illegal immigrants are, by definition, illegal. Our government (both parties) has let us down by not enforcing the immigration laws we already have on the books. What we need is not new law but actual enforcement of the old ones. I personally know many Mexican immigrants (being from San Antonio) and for the most part, they tell me legitimatizing illegals is a personal affront to all those who legally immigrated in order to participate in our American experiment. And to protest en masse! How dare they imply they "deserve" citizenship when they are on American soil on false pretenses in the first place? I, personally, support legalimmigration. The majority of immigrants seek legitimate work and a better condition for themselves and their families. This intent alone does not convey upon them the "right" to violate and encroach upon our border. As to a so-called "guest worker" program, I say dismiss the thought. Why should anyone who does not want to become a citizen of our nation be permitted to share in the benefits of our nation? If someone is willing to leave their ancestral homeland and adopt the United States as their new home, with all the responsibility that accompanies such a move, they should be allowed to earn a living here. But to let people across the river, on a temporary basis, to earn money that will be shipped back and circulated through a foreign economy merely bestows rights upon individuals without exacting responsibility. If you're so inclined, read Thomas Sowell's take on the subject (here and here).

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:02:21 PM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 March 29, 2006 11:17 AM Well, if I hung around with a bunch of jockeys, I'd probably get to play center in a pick up basketball game, too, JRT, so it's all relative, pal. Nevertheless, Attila went to Rome, not China. He went in the other direction. Genghis Khan is the dude you're thinkin' of.
    You are right- I confused my barbarians, but the point remains the same.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:09:17 PM EST
    Just curious, of all those who are in favor of labelling these folks "criminals", how come not a single one of you has not called out the corporations hiring them "criminals"? I don't disagree with the classification and as soon as the democrats sponsor a law that recognizes undocumented workers as potential citizens I will support it. However, what is worse, trying to escape a country where you feel your options completely stink, or hiring someone without documentation thereby flagrantly ignoring labor laws? Why aren't the corporations reporting these people and doing their patriotic duty in helping to keep america safe and protect jobs for americans? The fact is, the corporations need immigrants, illegal or legal and have a vested self interest in utilizing that labor pool. Of course, those that come here looking for work have a significant self-interest also.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:14:45 PM EST
    Jlv: I am remiss for not having myself mentioned the *only* adjustment in currently law that will make any difference in the employment of illegal immigrants. If the businesses of the United States, large and small, corporation and sole proprietorship, faced daunting financial penalties, they would no longer find it advantageous to hire illegal workers. If you're a Fortune 500 and you hire illegals to clean the bathrooms, get ready for a multi-million dollar fine. If you're a one-truck landscape company, you too should be ready for the kind of fine that very well may shut down your business for good. Neither party engaged in this illicit agreement should be permitted to persist--illegal immigrants should be actively sought and detained while the companies that hire them should be vigorously pursued and prosecuted.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    Laws cannot enforce a social change if millions of people do not agree with that change: -- When the sale of alcoholic beverages was illegal, those who sold it were criminals. But that did not stop people from selling alcohol, because millions wanted to buy it. -- When the possession of marijuana is illegal, those who buy and sell it are criminals. But that does not stop people from selling marijuana, because millions want to buy it. -- If abortion is made illegal, those who obtain and perform it will be criminals. But that will not stop abortions from being performed, because millions of women will still want one. -- If working in the US without a valid visa is illegal, then those who work here and those who hire them are criminals. But that will not stop people from coming, or being hired, because millions of people still want to find work. Durbin's comments are not only humane and right, they also reflect the reality of the limits to his power as a lawmaker. Laws need to regulate the details of how society works, to ensure orderly and fair transactions and protect people from unfair exploitation, because they will never have the power to effect social changes that run counter to the desires of millions.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:36:12 PM EST
    Laws cannot enforce a social change if millions of people do not agree with that change
    Opinion poll after opinion poll reflects that the majority of Americans do not approve of granting illegal aliens either blanket amnesty nor conditional amnesty. Most, to this day, would like to see the laws that have already been passed enforced with vigor. The examples Cymro cites are certainly true but none should be taken as to relieve our government from the responsibility of enforcing the law. Laws were passed with the full expectation that they would be faithfully executed and violators punished. In the examples, as in the instant case, often times enforcement is woefully lacking. If the "desires of millions" favor the granting of blanket or conditioned amnesty to illegal immigrants, I suggest those "millions" contact their representatives and make their desires known. However, to merely forego enforcement flies in the face of the "desires of millions" in times past who called for the passage of the laws currently on the books.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:40:15 PM EST
    cymro... they will never have the power to effect social changes that run counter to the desires of millions. I think you'll find in this case, many more millions favor tougher laws.... and as we all know...majority rules here..right?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#32)
    by swingvote on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:10:51 PM EST
    Peaches, The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not out. Apples and Oranges.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:13:48 PM EST
    BB and Chase, you are both missing my point altogether. If millions desire to do something, they do not need to be a majority to render ineffective any laws banning it. The majority may pass all the laws they wish, but they will never impose their will on millions of people who, for whatever reason, will choose not to obey those laws. I guess this truth is one that is tough for people with a right-wing mindset to swallow, especially when they think they are the party "in power".

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:28:26 PM EST
    Allow me to approach this from a leftist point of view. My small city is what lefties would consider economically disadvantaged. The many thousands of illegals that live here primarily serve the wealthy residents of nearby suburbs, whether it be lawn work, maid service or working in factories owned by wealthy individuals. Meanwhile the cost of providing social services to the illegals is borne completely by the hospitals, schools,etc. of my small city. The schools are swamped with non-english speaking kids, hundreds of whom arrive each year weeks after the school starts. Doesn't it offend you lefties that the poor city is subsidizing the rich suburb?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:28:34 PM EST
    If millions desire to do something, they do not need to be a majority to render ineffective any laws banning it.
    True, millions can defy legitimate law. That doesn't mean their disobedience should go unpunished. To borrow Thomas Sowell's argument, just because we can never catch every single murderer or rapist doesn't mean we give up enforcing those laws.
    The majority may pass all the laws they wish, but they will never impose their will on millions of people who, for whatever reason, will choose not to obey those laws.
    Do you mean that, because these illegal immigrants don't agree with the law, they can legitimately violate it without fear of reprisal? What if it's only one person who doesn't agree with the law, and not millions? Obviously to you the will of the majority is irrelevant.
    I guess this truth is one that is tough for people with a right-wing mindset to swallow, especially when they think they are the party "in power".
    The real truth is it's tough for people on the "left-wing" to recognize they aren't currently in power. Maybe that will change in November, maybe not. Time will tell.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:57:31 PM EST
    The real truth is it's tough for people on the "left-wing" to recognize they aren't currently in power.
    Chase-As Lord Acton said so elegantly around the turn of the last century: Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely JP,
    The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not out. Apples and Oranges.
    If only you were around to tell the people of West berlin this fact. Or anyone from the west for that matter. Checkpoint Charlie? You know anything about that?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 03:02:34 PM EST
    Peaches: No, no. It's true the right is in power and the left has a difficult time swallowing that. But wait until November. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Democrats to at least one of the Houses, maybe both. But then again, maybe it will stay the same, albeit with a slimmer margin. That's the fun of elections. I certainly didn't mean to imply I think the GOP will be in power for eternity.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 03:38:26 PM EST
    I certainly didn't mean to imply I think the GOP will be in power for eternity.
    Chase--I was just making an observation on power. Perhaps the left needs to think a little bit more about what holding office in our current--as ppj likes to refer to it as--republic. It leads from power to absolute power. No doubt, the left would benefit from a victory in November, but this will only go a small way toward the reforms we need in the US to survive as a viable democratic entity. David Chandler says
    There are two classes in this country. One class derives concentrated power from its concentrated wealth. The other class has power only in numbers. That power is effective only to the extent that it can be mobilized through organization. Until we come to terms with these issues, phrases such as, "We the people...," and, "of the people, by the people, and for the people," are hollow clichés.
    In other words, currently our Republic is not a true democracy. It is being run by a wealthy elite who have mastered the art of propaganda leaving us with a population of autonomous conformists subject to the whims of the latest slogan.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:09:10 PM EST
    With this:
    ...but this will only go a small way toward the reforms we need in the US to survive as a viable democratic entity.
    and this:
    is being run by a wealthy elite who have mastered the art of propaganda leaving us with a population of autonomous conformists subject to the whims of the latest slogan.
    in mind, what reforms do you suggest? While I definitely don't agree with your Bolshevist characterization of the American populace as "autonomous conformists subject to the whims of the latest slogan", for the hell of it, I'll play along. Suppose some in the country do blindly follow along, shouting the slogans as they're told, reciting the rhetoric conferred upon them. Wouldn't that also apply to the ideologies behind the slogans? And wouldn't one of the more popular ideologies, historically steeped in sloganism, be Marxist socialism? And by employing such timeless slogans as "wealthy elite", "art of propaganda" and even "autonomous conformists" aren't you.... Oh nevermind, this isn't a fun game anyway. William Shakespeare says
    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player / That struts and frets his hour upon the stage / And then is heard no more: it is a tale / Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, / Signifying nothing.
    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:20:16 PM EST
    Chase: Your continued insistence on repeating arguments about laws, crimes, and punishment etc., and your complete refusal to address the social realities I am referring to is getting tiresome.
    True, millions can defy legitimate law. That doesn't mean their disobedience should go unpunished. To borrow Thomas Sowell's argument, just because we can never catch every single murderer or rapist doesn't mean we give up enforcing those laws.
    The examples I gave were not comparable to murder or rape, so that quote is quite irrelevant. There is no argument about the need to prevent murder and rape, nor is there a vast segment of society that believes it should be allowed to commit those crimes. But the fact is that millions did defy the prohibition laws, millions are defying the drug laws, and millions would defy (as they did in the past) any law making abortion illegal, rendering those laws unenforceable. And millions will continue to defy any laws that attempt to prevent people from seeking to earn a living when there is work available and employers willing to hire them. Those laws will also be unefoceable. People like you can keep up your sloganeering, but in the end all you are saying is "they should do something about it." But lawmakers should realize that an unenforceable law is a bad law. So faced with such social realities, they cannot just bury their heads in the sand and continue to argue for stronger laws, as some congressional representatives seem to have been doing recently. They may get your vote by doing so, because apparently you do not understand the difference between social issues and crimes. But they will not change reality by passing those laws.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#41)
    by swingvote on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:15:18 PM EST
    Peaches, Checkpoint Charlie proves you wrong. West Berliners, West Germans, and just about anyone else who wanted to could freely pass through Checkpoint Charlie and enter East Berlin. They could also freely return, assuming they did not run afoul of the Stasi while in East Berlin. East Berliners and East Germans, on the other hand, could not leave at will, and those who did get out almost never returned. You can read about it, if you really want to know the truth.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:15:38 AM EST
    Cymro... Your continued insistence on repeating arguments about laws, crimes, and punishment etc.,... And you keep going on about prohibition & drug laws..etc. but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Those laws were unpopular with the American public.... (just like the 55mph speed limit) so they, for the most part, ignored them. This law isn't about American citizens... besides it's got support from the majority of the public. People from other countries can ignore our laws...as long as they don't do it here.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#43)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:36:31 AM EST
    As a Reagan fan I appreciate the wall comment. Bravo. However the walls would have doors in them that opened in both directions and no one would shoot you in the "kill" zone. The walls would simply keep people out that would otherwise try and bypass the system. Why apply for a visa when you can just walk in?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:42:59 AM EST
    Jen - Trust but verify is my motto. Now, what was the real problem with the wife and the girl friend?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:00:49 AM EST
    JP, Obviously, you were never in Germany during the Cold war. Put it this way, if we ever are so stupid to build a wall on the border of Mexico, I am sure we will be so kind as to allow Mexicans to have a one day pass to get in a tour bus and be driven around Texas or New Mexico for a few hours, provided they pass all security checks. That was Checkpoint Charlie.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:35:13 AM EST
    Peaches, How many East Germans ever got on a bus for a one-day, one-hour, or even one-minute tour of West Germany? The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in. Hence the East German guards shooting people on the East Berlin side trying to get out of East Berlin, but no reports of West German guards shooting people on the West Berlin side trying to pass into East Germany. But go ahead an claim otherwise if it makes you happy.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:47:49 AM EST
    Wouldn't that also apply to the ideologies behind the slogans? And wouldn't one of the more popular ideologies, historically steeped in sloganism, be Marxist socialism? And by employing such timeless slogans as "wealthy elite", "art of propaganda" and even "autonomous conformists" aren't you....
    Actually, Chase, one of the more popular slogans is that whenever one refers to "wealthy elites" one is coming from a socialist perspective steeped in marxist ideas which were proven disastrous by the fall of the soviet empire. When in actuality, one could just as easily be coming from a Christain perspective or a Jeffersonian perspective, or one might simply be describing the current state of America. When I speak of slogans I am merely talking about the inability of most Americans to think about complex issues. Such as if I say homeschool, someone says libertarian. If I say economic justice, one says socialism. If I say Roe vs. Wade is fallible, one says anti-choice or mysoginist. If I say global warming, one says liberal. Now, it is natural to categorize, but we have become very simplistic in our thinking. I am going to blame public schools/media(television/internet). I really do believe we have made a conscious decision in this country to make our population dumber and unable to make decisions for themselves and look for pragmatic solutions to complex problems. We are to willing to listen to experts. We trust our health, finances, business, politics, science and everything else to experts. We are unable to gain expertise on our own, so we place people in a box when we don't understand them. Because we all know what prochoice and antichoice is. Free trade and socialism. Conservative and liberal. We are idiots. Go read Shakespeare. Don't just quote him. Immerse yourself in his works. Then talk politics.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:48:57 AM EST
    All right JP.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:02:20 AM EST
    Chase, Exhibit #1--see above

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:16:41 AM EST
    Peaches: There are many phrases that become associated with the movements that adopt and employ them. That's irrefutable. I definitely agree with you that many Americans aren't intellectually curious. It's an unfortunate sign of the times that we don't take it upon ourselves to seek out knowledge from all ends of the political spectrum. There are also many rely solely on popular media for their information (like Fox News, CNN, the NY Times, et al.). I will at least give them credit for being interested in the issues, although I would suggest they could take the extra step and try and gather all perspectives. But you seem to be including me in this category. Maybe I'm being hyper-defensive here but in the event that you are, I think that's unfair. I go out of my way to find and try and understand the argument on all sides of the issue.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:36:13 AM EST
    I definitely agree with you that many Americans aren't intellectually curious.
    Not only are we not intellectually curious, but we have a serious distrust of intellectuals. People will take their perspective from Fox over Chomsky, for example. Fox is propaganda. Chomsky takes effort to understand, even when he is wrong.
    although I would suggest they could take the extra step and try and gather all perspectives.
    It not just a matter of getting diffent perspectives. It is a matter of thinking deeply and realizing that simple solutions don't exist. Or as Wendel Berry says, "The first characteristic of any plan is it won't work." Try that on for size. What does this mean?
    But you seem to be including me in this category.
    I include everyone in that category--even me. I am a product of public education. I am a slave to the system. I am a cog in the wheel. I couldn't survive by producing for myself, because that knowledge is several generations removed. I am one consumer among many at the mercy of the large and powerful producers who are few in numbers. That will change. It has too. Either we gain wisdom again, or we destroy ourselves -- simple as that, but that's not that simple, is it?

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:54:12 AM EST
    I am a product of public education.
    Oh come on, it's not that bad. Nothing would beat a system where everyone had a personal tutor for their education. It's far from perfect (light-years) but come now.
    I couldn't survive by producing for myself, because that knowledge is several generations removed.
    Actually, the reason you couldn't is because you no long have to, because the effort and development of "previous generations" have relieved you of this inefficiency. Do you really want to be making your own clothes and farming your own land? That labor would prevent you from the intellectual pursuits you now enjoy.
    I am one consumer among many at the mercy of the large and powerful producers who are few in numbers.
    Producers produce what consumers demand. If you want something, hell, they make it! If a company makes crap, they're gone! Works well enough for me!

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#53)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:11:23 AM EST
    Producers produce what consumers demand.
    There you go. Just what I was talking about. You learn that in Econ 101? And you never read Adam Smith. You never Read Marx. You never read Hume or Aristotle. You've never read the New Testament or the Old--and you haven't read much of Shakespeare either. Your ignorance is obvious and I only need to point to the above quote to prove it. I am not insulting, chase or even being derogatory. I was 38 when I first read Apology. How old do you think Lincoln was or Thoreau? Or Wittengenstiein?... I know all about consumer demand theory. I went to graduate school for economics. I have a Masters degree. I can draw supply and demand curves for you all day long. And then I started to think deeper about it. What is a demand curve and what is it representing? Really? How do we get an equation out of it. What are we really measuring with consumer surplus? where did these ideas come from? I had to think deeper and it lead me right out of the field of economics. There went my dissertation. Oh well, I finally leaned something and I began to think for myself. Producers produce what consumers demand? think about what you are saying. Go back to your studies Chase. You are not qualified to discuss politics. Most people aren't here, wo feel right at home.

    Re: Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:39:24 PM EST
    Producers produce what consumers demand?blockquote> Ah, yes. Let the free market decide. The song that kiddie pornographers, Domestic Auto Manufacturers and publishers of how-to hit man manuals sing to themselves to get them through the night.

    Sen. Durbin on Immigration Reform | 53 comments (53 topical)