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What Immigration Crisis?

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:12:39 PM EST
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Robert Scheer over at Truthdig says there's no immigration crisis and we should legalize the illegals.

There is no immigration crisis -- other than the one created by a small but vocal stripe of opportunist politicians, media demagogues and freelance xenophobes. So it has always been throughout the history of this country when anti-immigrant hysteria periodically reigns during ebbs in our national sense of security and vision.

As to the undocumented workers, Scheer writes:

The number of claimed "illegal aliens" as a percentage of the population is clearly absorbable by the job market, as our low unemployment rate demonstrates.

His solution:

It is time to acknowledge that we need the immigrant workers as much as they need us, and to begin to treat them with the respect they deserve.

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    What Immigration Crisis? | 87 comments (87 topical)
    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:25:51 PM EST
    I hope some of the insane voices of the right-wing posters here -- who seem to support the republican congress's idea of treating immigrant workers as criminals -- read this. Just in case they don't follow the link, here are some key points:
    Luckily, although it sometimes takes years or even decades, saner voices eventually prevail, acknowledging that the continued influx of immigrants has fueled America's astonishing economic and cultural rise ever since the original natives were bum-rushed off their turf. Immigration laws are liberalized, compromises are reached, amnesties are offered, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service bureaucracy grinds on. Having intermittently covered this issue for the Los Angeles Times over 30 years, I can well recall the peaks of panic in which we reporters were dispatched to the border and out into the fields to witness the arrest of people desperate to find work -- only to be embarrassed by the hunted eyes and clutched crosses of the enemy discovered. Such frenzied attention was inevitably followed by a lull in which most Americans were quite happy to eat the food harvested by those same harassed and abused workers as well as to entrust the "illegals" with the care of American homes and children. On no other issue is there such an extreme disconnect between attitudes and actions. When Wal-Mart was busted for hiring undocumented workers, did anybody boycott the company? Of course not; consumers value price and aren't concerned, for the most part, about how a company accomplishes cheapness. If, however, people do really care about keeping all jobs open to American citizens, then there is only one effective strategy: Level the playing field by enforcing labor laws. Some 2 million immigrant workers now earn less than the minimum wage, and millions more work without the occupational safety, workers' compensation, overtime pay and other protections that legal status offers. Consequently, when the president says that immigrants perform work that legal residents are unwilling to do, he may be right -- but we don't know. The only way to test that hypothesis is to bring this black market labor pool above ground. ... Xenophobia today is no more warranted than it has been in the past. The number of claimed "illegal aliens" as a percentage of the population is clearly absorbable by the job market, as our low unemployment rate demonstrates. Yet, the Republican Party and the Congress it dominates are currently teetering between driving undocumented workers further underground and taking a saner compromise approach. ... The former, a draconian bill already passed by the House of Representatives, would legalize witch hunts of undocumented workers, by reclassifying them as felons; their employers would be subject to a year or more in prison and punitive fines, as would even church and nonprofit organization members that offer succor to them. This is a moment of truth for America. It is time to acknowledge that we need the immigrant workers as much as they need us, and to begin to treat them with the respect they deserve.
    Wake up you right-wing posters -- how can you fail to see the reality of the US economy? Are you just embarrassed to admit that your lifestyle depends on exploiting immigrant workers?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#2)
    by BigTex on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 11:33:49 PM EST
    Cymro - this is going to be unusual for me, but none of any link you, or anyone else here can give, will change my opinion on this matter, so am not going to read the talking points or the article. Here's the facts I base my opinions on. I've seen far too many of my coworkers fall to outsourcing. We were otright lied to by the company and they expected us to buy their fu@#$ing BS like we didn't have a brain to see their $hit for what it was. This isn't immigration, but it is the same occurence that happens with illegal immigration. Those who support the illegal aliens say that they do jobs that we as a society will not do. That is just as much a load of crap and the line they fed us when jobs were lost to India. I used to go deer hunting in Crabapple. The lease owner had an illegal alien as his handyman. That wasn't a position that a citizen wouldn't take. It was given to the illegal because he would accept the least compensation for the position. Ditto with the hurricane repairs in the wake of Rita. Local residents have started small businesses to do the repairs. What is happening? Established companies are bringing in cheap illegal labor, and the local businesses aren't getting the jobs. As a result the money transacted goes south of the border. It doesn't circulate in the local economy as it otherwise would. It doesn't aid in the recovery as it otherwise would. Rather it is a form of wellfare to a foreign government. It enhances the economy of foreign countries, not of the local area, which is in need of the economic recovery in the wake of Rita. The truth of the matter isn't that we as a society can't or won't do the work, we as a society just won't do it for the wages illegals would do it for. This bitterness doesn't stem from any feelings that others shouldn't be allowed into the country. We have a process to let people into the country. If we need to let more in we can let more in. Yet, many here want to reward the illegals by granting them legality. Even if, for the sake of discussion, the premise that we had to have this outside help was accepted, it doesn't follow that the illegals have to be the source of cheap labor. We could just as easily allow in more legal immigrants. We should not reward those who break the laws. This bitterness stems from seeing friends directly harmed by illegal immigration. It stems from the repeated lies by the liberals who treat the public like mindless sheep on the matter of immigration, then feign indignation when called out on the lies. We have enough unemployed, but employable, workers to fill these jobs. It's simply a matter of paying them enough to do the work. That should be a cause that liberals embrace, because it will raise wages. Yet, rather than take action to help raise wages and promote a living wage, liberals espouse bringing in illegal labor, which deflates wages and keeps the underemployed worker underemployed. It keeps the person who is struggling to make his way and provide for a family in an economically depressed situation. It forces the underemployed worker to pay for the benefits that go to illegal aliens who don't pay into funding of those services. It takes the honest, hard working legal resident and punished him for following the laws. Support for illegal immigration is contrary to most of what is respectable about liberals. Illegal immigration hurts the little guy, and at the same makes the little guy pay to help out the illegal alien, when the money could be better spent fixing legitimate social ills. Also, illegal immigration is what enables corporate greed. Sure there would be temporary economic fluctuatuins. But the economic impace would just be a ripple and the ripple would soon subside as price changed demand, which in turn changed the need for supply. The economic troubles would work themselves out in short order. It's time that liberals woke up and saw the harm that illegal immigration does to the very people who liberals support. TL I hope I did not cross any lines with this post. If I did, I apologise.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:49:08 AM EST
    BigTex, I'm as liberal as they come and even sometimes work as an immigration lawyer, and I think you raise some valid points. Immigration helps business and generally hurts American workers. Organized labor in this country has a history of opposing immigration for a reason. However, there are a few points I think you should keep in mind. First, our immigration laws have created an underclass of illegal immigrants whose existence is far more damaging to working conditions in the United States than legalization would be. Their vulnerability means that employers can pay them less than minimum wage and violate their rights with impunity, which drags down working conditions and wages for everyone. Second, U.S. global economic policies help create the conditions in Mexico and other countries that make emigration so enticing. As long as conditions in nearby countries are so abysmal, no fences will keep people out. There is no reason why labor standards should not be tied to free trade agreements, just as protections for intellectual property are. There are many other examples of ways the United States has created the "push" factors that prompt emigration. Third, reducing immigration will, if anything, encourage outsourcing. I don't claim to have examined the outsourcing issue specifically, but again, our global economic policies facilitate corporate globalization without benefit workers in any part of the world. Finally, although it is true that there are Americans willing to take those jobs if they paid a fair wage, we need to look at the realities of what would happen if wages were drastically increased. We would discover that we could no longer afford all the luxuries we are accustomed to. I'm not saying that would be a horrible thing, but it's something to keep in mind.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:50:10 AM EST
    Big Tex, I agree that immigrant workers and outsourcing are two sides of the same coin. But much as I appreciate the sadness you feel about your coworkers' lost jobs (as a manger, I have had to deal with the same thing), and the general erosion of job security that has been brought about by outsourcing, I cannot agree with your conclusion that we can prevent that from happening. The reality is that we cannot continue for ever consuming the vast majority of the world's resources and exploiting the vast majority of the world's labor resources just to maintain our own standard of living. The solution is not more protectionism (border controls in this instance) that will allow Americans to prolong for just a little longer their privileged status as the world's economic ruling class. The solution, unfortunately (at least, for those who think that a superior standard of living is their birthright as US citizens) is for Americans to accept that their standard of living must fall so that the rest of the world can catch up. In that process, some people will inevitably lose their jobs, or have to work for less. And I mean INEVITABLY -- in the long run, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it. This will indeed be painful for some who don't want to accept it, but anything we do to avoid dealing with that reality merely postpones the day when we will have to deal with it. That's why the only solution is to start accepting that real physical people are more important than abstact concepts of nationality, rather than trying to maintain our national standard of living by exploiting others so that (one way or another) they become our slave labor. lagringa understands this reality too -- he gives you the view from the other direction: Finally, although it is true that there are Americans willing to take those jobs if they paid a fair wage, we need to look at the realities of what would happen if wages were drastically increased. We would discover that we could no longer afford all the luxuries we are accustomed to. I'm not saying that would be a horrible thing, but it's something to keep in mind. It is late and I may not be quite as clear as I would like, but this is the reality of what is happening in the world today. So don't shoot the messenger -- this is not about left/right politics, it's about the realities of today's global economy. Thanks to modern communications, finance, and trade, the world has changed. And unless the US figures out how to become self-sufficient (which seems unlikely), it cannot avoid participating. Some US corporations may become richer in the process, but this will not necessarily benefit you and me. If you are on the right, maybe you think this is all fine and dandy. Here on TalkLeft, some of us may want to make a case for higher corporate taxes -- much higher. But now I'm getting off topic.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:40:40 AM EST
    I think we are stuck with the illegals that are here unless we make the fines so punative on employers that the jobs will dry up. What Mr. Sheer fails to address is the future. How many more can we absorb? another 11 million? Twenty million?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#6)
    by roger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 04:07:44 AM EST
    Tex, Your "illegals" didnt move, the border did. People have been going back and forth for thousands of years. Good luck stopping it now.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#7)
    by jen on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 04:43:03 AM EST
    Any real immigration reform has to focus on the busineses that hire the illegal immigrants. Targeting the immigrants themselves is worse than useless, it leads to dificulties for those who are here legaly. The problem is the companies.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 04:45:28 AM EST
    Once again, the repos have been runnin' things for some time now. It's time they stopped payin' lip service to personal responsibility and actually took some. The problem hasn't been dealt with because they don't want to deal with it. Their allegiance is to the Business Community who wants cheap labor, easy border crossings and no environmental regulations and they figure a few empty platitudes about God, guns and gays will get you xenophobes back in line soon enough. It's always worked before and it's not like you're the sharpest knives in the drawer. You're the some of the people rovesputin figures they can fool all the time.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:04:13 AM EST
    Cymro.... who seem to support the republican congress's idea of treating immigrant workers as criminals.. You left out one very important word that most libs like to gloss over... "ILLEGAL"... Illegal Immigrant workers are criminals! Charlie... Once again, the repos have been runnin' things for some time now. LOL...I love how you like to blame everything on Repubs....like there was nobody slipping under the fence when Billy boy was in charge. The problem hasn't been dealt with because they don't want to deal with it. Neither do the Dems... It's political hot potato and you know it. At least the Repubs are dealing with it now...

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:20:35 AM EST
    Ask hospitals on the boarder how small a problem illegals are. Ask public school systems on the boarder how much taxpayer money they are spending to educate illegals who don't pay their fair share. Ask governor Bill Richardson if there isn't a problem. Ask the immigrants that die in the desert every year if there isn't a problem. On and on but I'm supposed to believe Robert Scheer that we dont' have a problem. Unbelievable.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:47:05 AM EST
    I don't know where Scheer lives, but it can't be near the border. He needs to spend some time in San Diego, Tucson, Phoenix, or L.A. and then tell us that there's no crisis. Let him spend some time in a Phoenix hospital ER and see how long it takes to see a doctor. Let him look around at the people waiting to be seen and tell us how many of them are American citizens. Let him spend time on an Arizona ranch in a border county and look at the destroyed property, dirty diapers thrown in the front yard, and livestock running loose on the roads because of torn down fences. Let him visit border city schools and see classrooms filled over capacity with immigrants children. Let him buy a house in Southern Arizona or California and see how he likes to watch his property taxes spiral upwards just to pay for this "non-crisis". Let him talk to a Border Patrol agent who had to sweep a truckload of illegals off the highway because some scumbag "coyote" didn't want to get caught. Yeah right, there's no crisis alright. Come on down here and say that Scheer!

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:55:31 AM EST
    Roger:
    Your "illegals" didnt move, the border did. People have been going back and forth for thousands of years.
    Exactly.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:14:44 AM EST
    The schools in my neighborhood have been closed for today and tommorrow, as noted here. The authorities in Oceanside are resorting to the typical heavy handed tactics, such as pepper spray and making up charges (someone threw a peice of concrete-never verified). This is a very rightwing area and so the fear mongers, including Howard Kaloogian, try to scare people that the demos could erupt into riots at any moment. Kaloogian is a blatant racist. There have been hundreds of thousands of marchers and only a few scattered arrests. Two girls(how brave is this?) got arrested for trying to pull a cop off their friend, who was tackled, bloodied and arrested for, get this, not stepping back onto the sidewalk fast enough. The police and the authorities are running around like a bunch of chicken littles, beating and pepperspraying at CHILDREN who have demonstrated virtually NO violence at these demos. You can also get an interesting viewpoint here.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:18:18 AM EST
    Sorry, just scroll up on the first link. But I'll save you some trouble. The first lin of the article reads: "A mob scene unfolded at Oceanside HS..." There was no MOB scene. This is just blatant fear mongering and headline grabbing. F***ing fascist media.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:21:20 AM EST
    Your "illegals" didnt move, the border did.
    What does that mean? Has the Mexican border shifted since the Immigration and Reform and Control Act of 1986 when the last amnesty was granted? If we grant amnesty again, 20 years later, aren't we pretty much saying "to hell with immigration laws, and to hell with borders"? If we are going to grant amnesty every 20 years, why don't we dissolve our borders completely and just become one continuous "North American" nation? Ridiculous. If you break the law, you should face the penalty. This isn't the same "civil disobedience" of MLK so the moral equivocation needs to stop. We need to reform our immigration process, streamline it, make it easier for all foreigners who want to become American citizens to come and work here. But that shouldn't preempt us from punishing those who are currently in violation of the law. The fact of the matter is illegal immigrants put themselves in a dangerous circumstance, beyond the protection of the law at the same time the bring economic harm to unskilled, poor Americans by driving down the value of their labor.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:27:47 AM EST
    illegals who don't pay their fair share
    Nonsense. All the illegals working w/ fake SS numbers are paying boatloads of dough into our system they will never be able to collect. The least they should get is an emergency room visit out of it...jeez. They may not be paying fair share to the states in regards to schooling children, but the feds are making a killing of illegal immigrants. And what about all the cheap agricultural products their cheap labor provides? That's paying a share.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:32:28 AM EST
    The truth of the matter isn't that we as a society can't or won't do the work, we as a society just won't do it for the wages illegals would do it for. Then raise the wages to a level where a US citzen will TAKE the job. If we take care of the workers we have, then we won't have a niche for illegal immigants. The modest rise in prices for certain items will easily be offset by the increased income of workers.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:35:44 AM EST
    Then raise the wages to a level where a US citzen will TAKE the job.
    It just doesn't work that way. Might I recommend an economics refresher course

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:38:22 AM EST
    Chase, Mybe you should provide some facts to back your argument. Enlighten us all. Please.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:40:07 AM EST
    It just doesn't work that way Then suffer the consequences. Or just put everyone in jail. Which Mall Wart are you the manager of? Just curious.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#21)
    by roy on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:45:57 AM EST
    To those who think there's no problem: Should people who are here illegally (under the current law anyway) be allowed to work for minimum wage? If so, what effect do you think that will have on U.S. citizens who work for minimum or near-minimum wage? If not, should U.S. taxpayers be required to pay to provide them with food, health care, housing, and other basic services while they're not working? (Personally, I say loosen the laws and let 'em work, but don't act surprised when wages drop)

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:52:42 AM EST
    (Assuming that looser immigration laws will lead to a significant increase in immigration by people who can't currently come work here legally. A big increase in the labor pool will lead to a decrease in wages for jobs that are currently above minimum wage, even as many who are in the pool now would get a raise up to minimum wage)

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:54:25 AM EST
    Roy, This is the flaw in the open borders argument. Your suggestion would drive down the wages of many legal workers in the country. Wages in this country for low income workers are too low. If it's more profitable to be on the dole, or get paid under the table, what do you think will happen?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:13:40 AM EST
    For a long time now the right has used tags to justify their actions. They have used "Cheaters" and "felons" as a tag to supress voting rights. They use the tag "illigal" to criminalize Marijuana and other drugs. People who smoked pot are in jail for decades. As a result of tagging you will notice there's and underlying arrogance and rightues attitude the tone of those who use them to justify their positions. "These are criminals, illegals" Bad bad bad and need to be punished! The truth is they just don't like brown poor people. I can't believe in this day and age our Congress has sunk so low as to want to turn 11,000,000 poor working folks into felons. I am embarrased. We should all be embarrassed. Shame on us! These are all Gods childred too. The just want to live a decent life. I am not a religous person but I do believe we are all connected and in my heart compassion trumps hate every time.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:24:47 AM EST
    People who smoked pot are in jail for decades.
    No, people who traffic drugs are put in jail for decades. Getting caught smoking pot once might get you an overnight stay as a county guest, but very unlikely anything more.
    "These are criminals, illegals" Bad bad bad and need to be punished!
    Actually, they are criminals. Illegally crossing the border and working violates immigration and labor law. They are, by definition, criminals. With breaking the law comes penalty.
    The truth is they just don't like brown poor people.
    If that isn't playing the race card, I don't know what is. I, for one, have no dislike whatsoever for "brown" people (or poor people for that matter).
    Congress has sunk so low as to want to turn 11,000,000 poor working folks into felons
    By entering the country illegally, they made themselves criminals.
    The just want to live a decent life.
    I applaud them in their goal. America is definately the place to seek a decent, fruitful life. However, it's very difficult to do so when you are a criminal from the outset.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:28:39 AM EST
    Che: I'm trying to answer your questions and provide links to some educational resources but my comment is being repeatedly embargoed. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#27)
    by desertswine on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:38:15 AM EST
    Perhaps you've been deemed a "right-wing chatterer."
    In particular, there is a four a day comment limit for right wing chatterers.
    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:42:27 AM EST
    desertswine: That seems very un-American, cut off my ability to engage in honest debate. I may be a "chatterer" but don't lump me in with the idiot right-wing that shows up on left-leaning blogs to cause problems.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:43:50 AM EST
    lagringa (???) writes: our immigration laws have created an underclass of illegal immigrants whose existence is far more damaging to working conditions in the United States than legalization would be. That doesn't sound good! So, why do you support creating more members of that underclass? Any amnesty will just bring in more members for a new underclass. Enforcing our laws will reduce the size of the underclass. Are you really "compassionate", or are you just faking it? kdog opines: All the illegals working w/ fake SS numbers are paying boatloads of dough into our system they will never be able to collect. The least they should get is an emergency room visit out of it...jeez. Cui bono from such a situation? Yes, that's right: their employers. They receive massively subsidized illegal labor and stick everyone else with the cost.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:00:24 AM EST
    Chase Did you know at one time almost all Americans were criminals! What did we do to them? well do you know? What we did was amend the Constitution to re-legalize Alcohol sale and consumption, thats what we did. If we use solution we would have to make America into one big gulag. At one time it was illegal for a slave to run away. What did we do about it. We fought a Civil War to make slavery illegal. You see just because you pomposly like to demonstrat how they are Bad, bad, bad. There is a better ways to deal with these Brown criminals than your kind advocate. Try loving thy neighbor. I have it on good authority it's the best way to approach this problem.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:25:02 AM EST
    I have it on good authority it's the best way to approach this problem.
    Well I'm glad you trust your source. It might benefit you do your due diligence here and check the facts (and review your idioms). Your two examples provide wonderful lessons in Americanism: the power of the collective voice of the citizenry to change an unpopular law (the repeal of Prohibition) and the acceptance that some institutions necessary to economic success are not worth the cost the extract from humanity (the War to End Slavery). In both cases, the change was brought about by the action of an overwhelming majority of the population. In the case of immigration law, there is no such "vast majority" that supports the wholesale opening of our borders nor is there a majority bloc who would accept an unconditioned amnesty grant. Secure borders are a fundamental component of national sovereignty. I refuse to accept the premise that we are unable or unwilling to protect our Southern border from unauthorized immigration. What's more, the rule of law is a fundamental component of our American system. By refusing to enforce the immigration statutes currently in place, we are mocking the rule of law.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:27:49 AM EST
    Ed, I have been reading Chase's comments over the last few days and he has not typed anything indicative of racist or prejudicial values, so I am finding it difficult to understand why the color of one's skin is being thrown at Chase. Is there anyone in this thread or online here that believes the dems or the repubs want to get rid of every illegal/undocumented worker? There is a significant labor pool of illegal/undocumented workers and it would severly hurt many businesses on this side of the border (my company is not one of them) who employ them. I have not seen any sensible legislation that addresses the two-fold problem which is illegal entry and illegal hiring. We need to maintain immigration laws that manage the flow of immigrants in this country, does anyone not agree with that? So if we need a law to manage the integration of immigrants, what is wrong with enforcing that law? My guess is that if CEO's were held criminally responsible for hiring undocumented or illegals, there would be a much different debate on the subject. That debate would be (not might) temporary work permits for undocumented workers. Neither side is saying much as usual and we in these chat rooms are fighting about the periphery and ignoring the root of the problem which of course has not been addressed by either party........ Big Tex - I know this is horsepucky coming from me BUT, I do not believe i have ever seen you be profane, you are better than that.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:35:21 AM EST
    Che writes:
    Then raise the wages to a level where a US citzen will TAKE the job. If we take care of the workers we have, then we won't have a niche for illegal immigrants. The modest rise in prices for certain items will easily be offset by the increased income of workers.
    My heart be still, but can it be that Che actually agrees with what I have been saying? The problem is how do you raise the wages? I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, you would raise the minimum wage. Nothing wrong with that. But, unless you shut down the border, all that does is make it more attractive for the illegal aliens to come in. So. We need two things. Shut down the border and put some heavy penalties in place for the employers. Now that means the introduction of a national ID card that is very hard to forge, and the automatic review of every new worker, by the government. Now. What do we do with the 11 million that are here? An ID card that shows their status which would be "illegal alien - waiting for citizenship process." This can't happen over night, so let's give'em nine months to get registered. In the meantime, the border is sealed tight by the BP, NG and if necessary, US military. We can then give them two years for the citizenship process. As before, border remains shut. After that, all illegals, including those who didn't apply for citizenship but were ID'd, are deported forthwith, including any children under the age of 18 unless they have a proven support group. Now, after you have done that and raised the minimum wage, the overall wages should rise for the so-called "work that Americans will not do." However, the flaw in this is the "sealed" border. If we had merely enforced our laws, the current problem would not exist.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#34)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:39:14 AM EST
    I always kinda wonder why the conservatarians spent so much time harping about the "Euroweenies" and their "seething, unassimilated Muslim minority" as proof that they couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag... ...and then promptly aim to create their own.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:47:21 AM EST
    B.S wedge-issue for the purposes of political grandstanding. The remorseless logic of capitalism dictates that businesses continually strive to cut (labor) costs and increase market share; hence bought-and-paid-for politicians, the Abramoffs, the Enrons, out-sourcing, and illegals. C'mon Chase, tell me I need to "take an economics course" and explain why.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:50:03 AM EST
    If there was ever an issue to compromise on this is it. The two positions from the extremes of both parties (no problem, send em all home) are ridiculous. We can't ship 11million people out of the country by force and we can't just keep letting them come in. Otherwise we become France and our enconomy tanks as we increase benifits for people who don't pay their fair share. (Can anyone seriously argue they pay their way?) So what to do? Build a wall, stop the flow and naturalize the ones that have already made it that want to assimilate. Send the criminals home. That is what the President wants to do and he's taking it from both the left and right because they'd rather score cheep political points then solve the problem.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:01:19 AM EST
    Jondee:
    C'mon Chase, tell me I need to "take an economics course" and explain why.
    Ok. Take an economics course. And take it because it's good for you! Businesses (not just "corporations") all strive to reduce their labor costs. And all businesses would love to increase their market share. Where I am lost is how this directly leads to the litany of troubles you provide. Can you share with me that? Attacking capitalism is a silly thing to do. Everyone would agree capitalism is the worst economic system in the world. Except all the other ones. Which one of those wonderfully successful systems do you support?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#38)
    by BigTex on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:25:03 AM EST
    Big Tex - I know this is horsepucky coming from me BUT, I do not believe i have ever seen you be profane, you are better than that.
    You are right. I apologise to any I offended with the profanity.
    First, our immigration laws have created an underclass of illegal immigrants whose existence is far more damaging to working conditions in the United States than legalization would be.
    Agreed, but it does not follow that legalization is the solution. We could just as easily start enforcing curent immigration laws and sending the illegal aliens back home. If enforcing current laws was done as a gradual process it would help to blunt the economic harm that would follow because it wouldn't be a shock to the system, but rather a steady trickle.
    Third, reducing immigration will, if anything, encourage outsourcing.
    Once agaom agreed, but this is an even more simple solution. Dell reciently placed an article in the Wall Street Journal feeding the public the same line they fed us. They want to increase wealth in India so as to develop the market for computers over there. Problem lies in what they are playing their workers over there. The solution is simple, pass a law that every US corp must pay all workers, domestic or foreign, at least current minimum wage. This will enhace value in the overseas markets allwoing new markets to develop, and will also reduce outsourcing because the cost savings of outsourcing will be greatly reduced.
    Any real immigration reform has to focus on the busineses that hire the illegal immigrants.
    It needs to be both a supply and demand solution. Dry up the supply of illegal workers, and also dry up the demand by making the costs of hiring illegal workers prohibitive. This isn't just for south of the border. If Wal-Mart ships in workers from eastern Europe again, treat them just as harshly. Illegal aliens are illegal aliens no matter their country of origin. Re the fince: A partial fince would not keep illegal aliens out. A complete fince along the border would severly restrict the immigration just like with Israel and the suicide bombers. It didn't stop the flow completly, but it did slow the flow considerably. Kdog - they do get emergency care... even if the "emergency" is a cold or a sore throat.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:31:13 AM EST
    (Can anyone seriously argue they pay their way?)
    I say they most certainly do...and more. Lemons are 4 for 1 dollar at my grocer. Without illegal immigrants they would be a buck a piece. Their way is paid by the ridiculously low wages and harsh working conditions they are willing to accept so our grocery bills remain low. Now we are gonna complain about immigrant labor going to the emergency room or sending their kids to school? That's cold man. Under our current system (or non-system for that matter) illegal immigrants are part of the "loser" or "shafted" bracket along with American labor and border communities. We know who's in the winner's bracket...big business and grocery shoppers.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:38:49 AM EST
    Kdog - they do get emergency care... even if the "emergency" is a cold or a sore throat.
    See above Tex...I think they've earned it. They are subsidizing the entire agricultural industry with their blood, sweat, and tears.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:44:33 AM EST
    They are subsidizing the entire agricultural industry with their blood, sweat, and tears.
    No they're not. The USDA is with insane subsidies to the farming industry. We destroy more crops every year to enable the inflated prices demanded by the farming lobby than is conscionable.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:50:45 AM EST
    Under our current system (or non-system for that matter) illegal immigrants are part of the "loser" or "shafted" bracket
    Honestly, kdog, they are here by their own choice, and because they're here, they're better off - often much better off - than if they had stayed in their own country, and are better off than their fellow citizens who did choose stay in their own country. How are they "losers?" How have they been "shafted?"

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#43)
    by roger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:57:23 AM EST
    Chase, California was taken from Mexico by force, so was Arizona. Need I say more about "New" Mexico? As for Texas, "remember the Alamo"! 1986 is as random a date as 1886, or 1786, these people are indiginous to the region

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:15:56 AM EST
    Roger - Johnny, our resident TL Native American, might have something to say about who the indiginous peoples in those areas really were if that's the argument you're promoting...

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:22:52 AM EST
    If the illegals entering our country were not able to secure employment they would either turn to crime or decide not to stay. The undocumented worker is breaking the law coming here illegally. The companies that employ undocumented workers bear equal culpability to the problem and I have yet to see any mass demonstrations at their doorsteps demanding that they cease and desist employing people that are not documented. There was a lot of coverage for the group that was at the border "helping" keep illegals out. How come none of them went to the companies hiring these people? There seems to be a major disconnect in complicity and accountability. As long as there are employers willing to hire illegals, they will keep coming. It is much easier to beat up on the Mexican nationals coming here "illegally" than it is to investigate and prosecute companies that knowingly and willingly violate labor laws that have far more dramatic impact on Americans than those coming here looking for a better way of life....

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:25:59 AM EST
    Seriously Roger. Maybe the Aztecs can have Mexico back from the Spanish invaders.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:33:28 AM EST
    BigT - I know that I am often profane and it is unfair for me to point it out, I just have come to expect a certain decorum from you and it was weird seeing it with your moniker. I of course was not offended, just surprised.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:46:40 AM EST
    It is much easier to beat up on the Mexican nationals coming here "illegally" than it is to investigate and prosecute companies that knowingly and willingly violate labor laws that have far more dramatic impact on Americans than those coming here looking for a better way of life....
    It's much easier politically, for sure. I have a suspicion that mass demonstration by a demographic that both parties have been actively courting for nearly two decades might bring some ambitious politicians pause--but I'm probably wrong. Roger, Roger, Roger...
    California was taken from Mexico by force, so was Arizona. Need I say more about "New" Mexico? As for Texas, "remember the Alamo"!
    ..and Massachusetts was taken by force from England! And Florida was taken from Spain! Get a grip. No one swimming the Rio Grande formerly lived in NorCal and is now just trying to "get back home."
    1986 is as random a date as 1886, or 1786, these people are indiginous to the region
    Actually 1986 isn't random. It was the year Congress passed the last massive amnesty law. And 1886 was 50 years after Texans won home-rule. And 1786 was the Ten Year Anniversary of the American Revolution. So see? None of those dates was random.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:39:26 PM EST
    Jim, The problem is how do you raise the wages? I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, you would raise the minimum wage. Nothing wrong with that. That's a start. But, unless you shut down the border, all that does is make it more attractive for the illegal aliens to come in. So. We need two things. Shut down the border and put some heavy penalties in place for the employers. Not necessary if we allow the legal workers to organize into trade unions. This would put in place a non governmental method of keeping the employers from hiring illegals. The illegals would have no motivation to come here, as the jobs are taken by legal workers. They would then endeavor to correct the problems in their own countries. Jim I know you hate unions but this is the only fair, economic, legal solution to this huge problem. Here is a great link for information on why this would work. Though NAFTA has cost us 38K private farms, Agribusiness profits are up. This is due to artificially low farmworker wages. I hate to burst the capitalist bubble, but the corporations are just going to have to settle for profits, instead of record profits.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:53:12 PM EST
    Che: I'm not familiar with agribusiness but, isn't a farm workers union already in place? If so, they obviously aren't the answer. What's more, using unions as agents of enforcement is far from wise. What would keep unions from admitting illegal immigrants and allowing them to work (albeit illegally) on American farms? I would rather have the INS enforce immigration law as they should and leave unions to battle with ownership over wages and conditions (although I personally don't like this idea).

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Che, If you will please forgive Chase. As he so readily admits, he is not familiar with the agribusiness.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Peaches: Enlighten me--who is the UFW?

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    Do your own research Chase. But, just some advice for the future: if you are not familair with something, you should refrain from offering your opinion on it.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:16:48 PM EST
    Peaches: Rhetorical question. The UFW is, of course, the United Farm Workers of America and they are, in fact a farm workers union! So Che's plan is already in effect. And already failing miserably!

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    From my brief scan through the comments, it appears that BigTex and Chase have commented dozens of times since this morning. If only the nativists would stop fulminating on the net all day long, maybe they could compete for those menial labor jobs they claim to want so bad. And if you nativists ARE employed (and I know you don't own a business, or you wouldn't be a nativist), you should be fired for breaking the rules! BREAKING THE RULES! There must be a penalty!!! Violating an employer's rules, like violating the civil immigration regulations, like illegal aliens, offends the rule of law! It offends me so very deeply!

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:25:59 PM EST
    It was friendly advice. You got something against friendly advice. You are only hurting yourself. Not only are you unfamilair with agribusiness, you know nothing about the UFW or labor unions in general. Not to mention voting machines, immigration law, liberalism, conservatism, or politics in general. Enough already. Go away and come back when you have learned something.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:37:52 PM EST
    How are they "losers?" How have they been "shafted?"
    What I was trying to get at sarc is our current way of handling immigration doesn't really benefit the illegals aka they aren't "winners". Granted, they get shafted here less than they were getting shafted in Mexico or South America, but since they are illegal they get no minimum wage protection , no job safety protection, no health insurance, etc. Anyone claiming our current system works out great for these immigrants is nuts, IMO. It's simply less crappy here than the situation in their home country for poorer people. The fact that illegal immigrants are vital to our economy, and yet they get none of the protections afforded citizens and legal immigrants means they are getting the "shaft". Just like border communities get the shaft incurring all the costs associated with the wave of immigrants, and the american worker gets the shaft with the down pressure on wages. The "winners", I say again, are big business and the consumers of goods and services provided by illegal immigrants.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:13:22 PM EST
    Chase, The UFW's power is limited BY the influx of illegals. Go check what their stand is on this issue. What's more, using unions as agents of enforcement is far from wise. That's a bit strong. They wouldn't carry badges or anything. What would keep unions from admitting illegal immigrants and allowing them to work (albeit illegally) on American farms? I trust unions in this issue a lot more then I trust big business. Besides, the fat cats would be salivating for an issue like that to bust the union. You also need to understand that it is much more than just farmworkers who need to be protected from illegal immigation. Wal Mart isn't exactly in the farming business. Nor are the sweat shops.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:17:44 PM EST
    This is Cesar Chavez 101, folks. but we all really know why it doesn't work.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:18:39 PM EST
    Oops. Ceasar.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:23:12 PM EST
    Che: I'll admit, I'm reluctant to agree with your proposal because I'm anti-union. That's not to say I'm anti-worker. Businesses that don't abide by the regulations should be punished accordingly. For instance, when Wal-Mart locks workers in after they are clocked out to clean up--reprehensible behavior that should be punished accordingly. But some of the other things people criticize Wal-Mart for I just don't take issue with. Employment is a two-way street. If you don't like the terms the employer is offering, don't take the job. I would like to see any illegal in the US today, who can show employment and who would like to become a citizen of the United States permitted to stay and begin the naturalization process tomorrow. If they wish to remain citizen of Mexico, no hard feelings, but they gotta go. As for businesses that employ illegals, crack down big time. I'm all for it.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#62)
    by BigTex on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:33:30 PM EST
    it appears that BigTex and Chase have commented dozens of times since this morning
    . This is my 5th comment today, one of which was actually last night past midnight. As far as how/why I am able to have the time to post, have you considered the possibility that this is my day off (partially true), or that I am a student and do not have class today (completly true.) I'm up for honest debate, but come on, claiming "dozens" when the true number was 4, on a technalicity, three as presented. If I were at work, and it was against company policy, then yes I would deserve to face company discliplinary action if breaking the rules.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#63)
    by roger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:35:13 PM EST
    Chase & Slado, Your point might hold water if the locals were asking to take over, right now they are just asking to exist. Sarc, Meztizo (sp?) Vs native is valid, but either group is more indiginous than the rest of us

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:40:25 PM EST
    Peter, I am also blogging and working simultaneously. It can be done.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:45:42 PM EST
    'll admit, I'm reluctant to agree with your proposal because I'm anti-union. That's not to say I'm anti-worker.
    By definition, if you are anti union, you are anti worker. The only way workers in this or any other country ever got rights was by banding together.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Sailor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:46:55 PM EST
    My problem with the situation is the meme that we are supposed to import 'guest workers' to do jobs that 'Americans refuse to do.' That's complete BS. American's don't take the jobs because they don't pay enough. And they don't pay enough because the owners can import cheap, illegal labor. Obviously NARAS has only made US workers poorer and not improved Mexico's lot by enough to stop border crossings. Who benefited from NARAS? Rich people, because dog nose they can never have enough.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Sailor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 05:34:59 PM EST
    Ooops! Obviously I meant NAFTA, not NARAS. Boy, is my face red.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#68)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:01:21 PM EST
    kdog, well, I guess most every worker in America is shafted in some way or another if you choose to view it that way. Anyway, regarding min wage, do you have any good numbers on what illegals earn? No illegals, in LA anyway, are making less than min wage. Most, if not all, make substantially more. I know, I know, that doesn't mean it's all champagne and caviar for them, but still, maybe it's not quite as stultifying an existance as some may want to make it out to be...

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:04:03 PM EST
    Roger, you've made some good solid points here on TL, this really is not one of them.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:39:42 PM EST
    You have no such problems, suo.
    I'd almost say that was the pot calling the kettle black, except SUO usually has cogent points, not rantings comparable to a pre-pubescent boy trying to draw attention to himself.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:46:03 PM EST
    Well, that's something you'll have to work on, patrick, but I'm proud of ya, son. The first step in solving a problem is admitting that you have one. Next, you guys can tackle your collective overuse of the word cogent.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:16:55 PM EST
    Che writes:
    Jim I know you hate unions but this is the only fair, economic, legal solution to this huge problem.
    Hmmm. And how do you know that? I don't remember any attacks against "unions" per se. My whole family was Teamster, IBEW or UAW, and that includes me. I do believe that unions have now morphed into something that was never intended, and I do believe that the teachers' unions do not have the students interest first in their heart. And there appears to a fair number of unions available. If they aren't picking up new members, perhaps you can show me that the government is preventing that. I mean, why organize a new farm workers union when you have the UFW, etc. So, I'm all for it, although I can't really see it working because it is at cross purposes with the Demos. Chase - If I remember correctly, it was a subcontractor for Walmart that locked people in, etc. Perhaps someone can show me where Walmart knew what was going on. et al - In any event, before we attack a specific business, we should make sure that our lawn service companies, our roofing contactors, our home builders, even our independant auto repair shops, "nanny bureaus and home cleaning services companies aren't guilty of employing illegal aliens.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:26:45 PM EST
    BB, Chase, and Slado, illegal aliens are simply not criminals. Do you not understand the meaning of the words "criminal" and "crime"? Look in a dictionary - it doesn't have to be a legal one. Hint: immigration law (as well as employment law, contract law, landlord-tenant law, family law, etc., etc.) is not the same thing as criminal law.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:38:46 PM EST
    BigMediaBlog, your comments aren't relevant to my post. Just because I'm a liberal doesn't mean I said the things that your right-wing ignoramuses tell you liberals say. The only specific policy I advocated was linking labor standards and free trade agreements. I don't know how your twisted mind concluded that that amounted to supporting an increase in the number of illegal aliens. My statements weren't based on "compassion" but on practicality. I'm seeking solutions to a large, complex problem that are feasible and actually achieve results. You, on the other hand, don't live in the real world. "Enforcing our laws"? You want to seal the borders and locate, prosecute, and incarcerate up 11 million people? Even if we had the resources to attempt such an operation, it would through our economy and society into chaos.

    Re: What Immigration Crisis? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:27:46 PM EST
    I found this on the net im wondering what truths there are to these claims id just like to say im 300% against letting illegal immigrants into this country... we are a country based on law. if we allow these men and women to stay here they will have violated our laws.. do we want to send a message to the world that the USA is without law. please close our borders until we can get this under control And Mr bush... your my hero Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:... EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports. EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media. EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals. EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways. EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period. EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis." FEMA's powers were consolidated by President Carter to incorporate the... National Security Act of 1947 allows for the strategic relocation of industries, services, government and other essential economic activities, and to rationalize the requirements for manpower, resources and production facilities. 1950 Defense Production Act gives the President sweeping powers over all aspects of the economy. Act of August 29, 1916 authorizes the Secretary of the Army, in time of war, to take possession of any transportation system for transporting troops, material, or any other purpose related to the emergency. International Emergency Economic Powers Act enables the President to seize the property of a foreign country or national. These powers were transferred to FEMA in a sweeping consolidation in 1979. Where are these camps? ALABAMA Opelika - Military compound either in or very near town. Aliceville - WWII German POW camp - capacity 15,000 Ft. McClellan (Anniston) - Opposite side of town from Army Depot; Maxwell AFB (Montgomery) - Civilian prison camp established under Operation Garden Plot, currently operating with support staff and small inmate population. Talladega - Federal prison "satellite" camp. ALASKA Wilderness - East of Anchorage. No roads, Air & Railroad access only. Estimated capacity of 500,000 Elmendorf AFB - Northeast area of Anchorage - far end of base. Garden Plot facility. Eielson AFB - Southeast of Fairbanks. Operation Garden Plot facility. Ft. Wainwright - East of Fairbanks ARIZONA Ft. Huachuca - 20 miles from Mexican border, 30 miles from Nogales Rex '84 facility. Pinal County - on the Gila River - WWII Japanese detention camp. May be renovated. Yuma County - Colorado River - Site of former Japanese detention camp (near proving grounds). This site was completely removed in 1990 according to some reports. Phoenix - Federal Prison Satellite Camp. Main federal facility expanded. Florence - WWII prison camp NOW RENOVATED, OPERATIONAL with staff & 400 prisoners, operational capacity of 3,500. Wickenburg - Airport is ready for conversion; total capacity unknown. Davis-Monthan AFB (Tucson) - Fully staffed and presently holding prisoners!! Sedona - site of possible UN base. ARKANSAS Ft. Chaffee (near Fort Smith, Arkansas) - Has new runway for aircraft, new camp facility with cap of 40,000 prisoners Pine Bluff Arsenal - This location also is the repository for B-Z nerve agent, which causes sleepiness, dizziness, stupor; admitted use is for civilian control. Jerome - Chicot/Drew Counties - site of WWII Japanese camps Rohwer - Descha County - site of WWII Japanese camps Blythville AFB - Closed airbase now being used as camp. New wooden barracks have been constructed at this location. Classic decorations - guard towers, barbed wire, high fences. Berryville - FEMA facility located east of Eureka Springs off Hwy. 62. Omaha - Northeast of Berryville near Missouri state line, on Hwy 65 south of old wood processing plant. Possible crematory facility. CALIFORNIA Vandenburg AFB - Rex 84 facility, located near Lompoc & Santa Maria. Internment facility is located near the oceanside, close to Space Launch Complex ..6, also called "Slick Six". The launch site has had "a flawless failure record" and is rarely used. Norton AFB - (closed base) now staffed with UN according to some sources. Tule Lake - area of "wildlife refuge", accessible by unpaved road, just inside Modoc County. Fort Ord - Closed in 1994, this facility is now an urban warfare training center for US and foreign troops, and may have some "P.O.W. - C.I." enclosures. Twentynine Palms Marine Base - Birthplace of the infamous "Would you shoot American citizens?" Quiz. New camps being built on "back 40". Oakdale - Rex 84 camp capable of holding at least 20,000 people. 90 mi. East of San Francisco. Terminal Island - (Long Beach) located next to naval shipyards operated by ChiCom shipping interests. Federal prison facility located here. Possible deportation point. Ft. Irwin - FEMA facility near Barstow. Base is designated inactive but has staffed camp. McClellan AFB - facility capable for 30,000 - 35,000 Sacramento - Army Depot - No specific information at this time. Mather AFB - Road to facility is blocked off by cement barriers and a stop sign. Sign states area is restricted; as of 1997 there were barbed wire fences pointing inward, a row of stadium lights pointed toward an empty field, etc. Black boxes on poles may have been cameras. COLORADO Trinidad - WWII German/Italian camp being renovated. Granada - Prowers County - WWII Japanese internment camp Ft. Carson - Along route 115 near Canon City CONNECTICUT, DELAWARE No data available. FLORIDA Avon Park - Air Force gunnery range, Avon Park has an on-base "correctional facility" which was a former WWII detention camp. Camp Krome - DoJ detention/interrogation center, Rex 84 facility Eglin AFB - This base is over 30 miles long, from Pensacola to Hwy 331 in De Funiak Springs. High capacity facility, presently manned and populated with some prisoners. Pensacola - Federal Prison Camp Everglades - It is believed that a facility may be carved out of the wilds here. GEORGIA Ft. Benning - Located east of Columbus near Alabama state line. Rex 84 site - Prisoners brought in via Lawson Army airfield. Ft. Mc Pherson - US Force Command - Multiple reports that this will be the national headquarters and coordinating center for foreign/UN troop movement and detainee collection. Ft. Gordon - West of Augusta - No information at this time. Unadilla - Dooly County - Manned, staffed FEMA prison on route 230, no prisoners. Oglethorpe - Macon County; facility is located five miles from Montezuma, three miles from Oglethorpe. This FEMA prison has no staff and no prisoners. Morgan - Calhoun County, FEMA facility is fully manned & staffed - no prisoners. Camilla - Mitchell County, south of Albany. This FEMA facility is located on Mt. Zion Rd approximately 5.7 miles south of Camilla. Unmanned - no prisoners, no staff. Hawkinsville - Wilcox County; Five miles east of town, fully manned and staffed but no prisoners. Located on fire road 100/Upper River Road Abbeville - South of Hawkinsville on US route 129; south of town off route 280 near Ocmulgee River. FEMA facility is staffed but without prisoners. McRae - Telfair County - 1.5 miles west of McRae on Hwy 134 (8th St). Facility is on Irwinton Avenue off 8th St., manned & staffed - no prisoners. Fort Gillem - South side of Atlanta - FEMA designated detention facility. Fort Stewart - Savannah area - FEMA designated detention facility HAWAII Halawa Heights area - Crematory facility located in hills above city. Area is marked as a state department of health laboratory. Barbers Point NAS - There are several military areas that could be equipped for detention / deportation. Honolulu - Detention transfer facility at the Honolulu airport similar in construction to the one in.Oklahoma (pentagon-shaped building where airplanes can taxi up to). IDAHO Minidoka/Jerome Counties - WWII Japanese-American internment facility possibly under renovation. Clearwater National Forest - Near Lolo Pass - Just miles from the Montana state line near Moose Creek, this unmanned facility is reported to have a nearby airfield. Wilderness areas - Possible location. No data. ILLINOIS Marseilles - Located on the Illinois River off Interstate 80 on Hwy 6. It is a relatively small facility with a cap of 1400 prisoners. Though it is small it is designed like prison facilities with barred windows, but the real smoking gun is the presence of military vehicles. Being located on the Illinois River it is possible that prisoners will be brought in by water as well as by road and air. This facility is approximately 75 miles west of Chicago. National Guard training area nearby. Scott AFB - Barbed wire prisoner enclosure reported to exist just off-base. More info needed, as another facility on-base is beieved to exist. Pekin - This Federal satellite prison camp is also on the Illinois River, just south of Peoria. It supplements the federal penitentiary in Marion, which is equipped to handle additional population outside on the grounds. Chanute AFB - Rantoul, near Champaign/Urbana - This closed base had WWII - era barracks that were condemned and torn down, but the medical facility was upgraded and additional fencing put up in the area. More info needed. Marion - Federal Penitentiary and satellite prison camp inside Crab Orchard Nat'l Wildlife Refuge. Manned, staffed, populated fully. Greenfield - Two federal correctional "satellite prison camps" serving Marion - populated as above. Shawnee National Forest - Pope County - This area has seen heavy traffic of foreign military equipment and troops via Illinois Central Railroad, which runs through the area. Suspected location is unknown, but may be close to Vienna and Shawnee correctional centers, located 6 mi. west of Dixon Springs. Savanna Army Depot - NW area of state on Mississippi River. Lincoln, Sheridan, Menard, Pontiac, Galesburg - State prison facilities equipped for major expansion and close or adjacent to highways & railroad tracks. Kankakee - Abandoned industrial area on west side of town (Rt.17 & Main) designated as FEMA detention site. Equipped with water tower, incinerator, a small train yard behind it and the rear of the facility is surrounded by barbed wire facing inwards. INDIANA Indianapolis / Marion County - Amtrak railcar repair facility (closed); controversial site of a major alleged detention / processing center. Although some sources state that this site is a "red herring", photographic and video evidence suggests otherwise. This large facility contains large 3-4 inch gas mains to large furnaces (crematoria??), helicopter landing pads, railheads for prisoners, Red/Blue/Green zones for classifying/processing incoming personnel, one-way turnstiles, barracks, towers, high fences with razor wire, etc. Personnel with government clearance who are friendly to the patriot movement took a guided tour of the facility to confirm this site. This site is located next to a closed refrigeration plant facility. Ft. Benjamin Harrison - Located in the northeast part of Indianapolis, this base has been decomissioned from "active" use but portions are still ideally converted to hold detainees. Helicopter landing areas still exist for prisoners to be brought in by air, land & rail. Crown Point - Across street from county jail, former hospital. One wing presently being used for county work-release program, 80f facility still unused. Possible FEMA detention center or holding facility. Camp Atterbury - Facility is converted to hold prisoners and boasts two active compounds presently configured for minumum security detainees. Located just west of Interstate 65 near Edinburgh, south of Indianapolis. Terre Haute - Federal Correctional Institution, Satellite prison camp and death facility. Equipped with crematoria reported to have a capacity of 3,000 people a day. FEMA designated facility located here. Fort Wayne - This city located in Northeast Indiana has a FEMA designated detention facility, accessible by air, road and nearby rail. Kingsbury - This "closed" military base is adjacent to a state fish & wildlife preserve. Part of the base is converted to an industrial park, but the southern portion of this property is still used. It is bordered on the south by railroad, and is staffed with some foreign-speaking UN troops. A local police officer who was hunting and camping close to the base in the game preserve was accosted, roughed up, and warned by the English-speaking unit commander to stay away from the area. It was suggested to the officer that the welfare of his family would depend on his "silence". Located just southeast of LaPorte. Jasper-Pulaski Wildlife Area - Youth Corrections farm located here. Facility is "closed", but is still staffed and being "renovated". Total capacity unknown. Grissom AFB - This closed airbase still handles a lot of traffic, and has a "state-owned" prison compound on the southern part of the facility. UNICOR . Jefferson Proving Grounds - Southern Indiana - This facility was an active base with test firing occuring daily. Portions of the base have been opened to create an industrial park, but other areas are still highly restricted. A camp is believed to be located "downrange". Facility is equipped with an airfield and has a nearby rail line. Newport - Army Depot - VX nerve gas storage facility. Secret meetings were held here in 1998 regarding the addition of the Kankakee River watershed to the Heritage Rivers Initiative. Hammond - large enclosure identified in FEMA-designated city. IOWA No data available. KANSAS Leavenworth - US Marshal's Fed Holding Facility, US Penitentiary, Federal Prison Camp, McConnell Air Force Base. Federal death penalty facility. Concordia - WWII German POW camp used to exist at this location but there is no facility there at this time. Ft. Riley - Just north of Interstate 70, airport, near city of Manhattan. El Dorado - Federal prison converted into forced-labor camp, UNICOR industries. Topeka - 80 acres has been converted into a temporary holding camp. KENTUCKY Ashland - Federal prison camp in Eastern Kentucky near the Ohio River. Louisville - FEMA detention facility, located near restricted area US naval ordnance plant. Military airfield located at facility, which is on south side of city. Lexington - FEMA detention facility, National Guard base with adjacent airport facility. Manchester - Federal prison camp located inside Dan Boone National Forest. Ft. Knox - Detention center, possibly located near Salt River, in restricted area of base. Local patriots advise that black Special Forces & UN gray helicopters are occasionally seen in area. Land Between the Lakes - This area was declared a UN biosphere and is an ideal geographic location for detention facilities. Area is an isthmus extending out from Tennessee, between Lake Barkley o