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Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui

USA Today has this recap of the Government's closing argument.

"Zacarias Moussaoui came to this country to kill as many Americans as he could," Raskin said. "He was supposed to fly the fifth plane into the White House. Instead he killed people by lying and concealing the plot...that resulted in the worst terrorist attack in the country's history."

Since the prosecutor was allowed to say "lying and concealing", I take it the defense lost on its argument to the Judge that the two are different and the Government should only be allowed to get the death penalty if it shows Moussaoui's lies contributed to a death on 9/11. He had a 5th Amendment right not to say anything, so why are prosecutors being allowed to argue his silence makes him guilty? More on this here.

Update: The defense argued Moussoui is a liar:

In his closing, defense attorney Edward B. MacMahon Jr. called his client a liar and a manipulator. He told jurors they should not believe Moussaoui's contention that had he not been sitting in a jail cell he would have been flying a hijacked plane into the White House on Sept. 11, 2001.

MacMahon told jurors that they were now a target of Moussaoui's propaganda: that he had an important role to play on Sept. 11. In reality, MacMahon argued, Moussaoui was "nothing but an al-Qaeda hanger-on" who is "trying to write a role for himself in history."

The jury deliberated an hour before retiring for the evening.

Cryptome.Org has footed the bill for the trial transcripts up until March 13. It's out of funds. They cost $1.00 a page and are not available on Lexis or from the Court, only from Exemplaris, a private company that provides them to the news services. If anyone wants to foot the $1,700.00 bill for the remaining transcripts, that would be great. I'd love to read and analyze them, particularly the day Moussaoui testified. It looks like that day, March 27, is only $261.00. Also, most of the Judge's rulings, such as on what the Government could and could not argue seem to have been made orally during the hearings and not by written order. Without the transcripts, it's impossible to do a complete analysis.

1,706 pages unpublished since March 13, 2006, through March 27, 2006:

March 14 -- 225 pages
March 17 -- 12
March 20 -- 323
March 21 AM -- 49
March 21 PM -- 293
March 22 -- 302
March 23 -- 241
March 27 -- 261

If any reporters who have transcript copies of March 14 and later want to e-mail them to me, that would be great and you can remain anonymous.

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  • Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:52:41 PM EST
    He had a 5th Amendment right not to say anything, so why are prosecutors being allowed to argue his silence makes him guilty?
    I understand they can argue this because he shot off at the mouth during cross, "admitting" to his prior knowledge of the 9/11 attack. Had he remained quiet, not taken the stand, I believe the judge would disallow this argument (as his silence could not be constitutionally taken as an indication of guilt). However, as soon as he spoke up at trial, and confirmed he did in fact know a.) about the plot in general, and b.) some limited operational plans, it became legal for the prosecution to argue he concealed his prior knowledge.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#2)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 03:19:33 PM EST
    I'm sorry, did I miss something? Did Moussaoui take the stand already?

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    Gee, don't you have a firm grasp of the obvious. Thanks for clearin' that up.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:15:35 PM EST
    I have an honest question: what is the general opinion of the fact Moussaoui has essentially roasted himself? Do you think he got what's coming to him? I, for one, do. I'm pleased to see the justice system work and (maybe I'm counting my chickens before the eggs hatch but...) execute a bad man with even worse intentions. But from others, I sense a tone of resignation, that although they know it's for the best, they can't bring themselves to say that. Am I reading this wrong?

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:36:14 PM EST
    Chase Tettleton - No, you did not. But pay no attention to charlie. He just has to attack anyone who disagrees with him. charlie - By "clearin" did you mean, "clearing?"

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#7)
    by LizDexic on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:40:06 PM EST
    Fifth plane? What happened to the fourth one?

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#8)
    by LizDexic on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:42:47 PM EST
    Oops. Lost count. Never mind.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#9)
    by Al on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:45:51 PM EST
    Chase Tettleton, the wingnuts will be happy to see Moussaoui die. Besides the pleasure they get from people being executed in general, this one in particular gives them a sense of accomplishment. It's a victory in the war on terror, don't you know. Seriously, executing this goof accomplishes exactly nothing, of course. 9-11 already happened; it's not going to deter anyone from trying to perpetrate another terrorist attack; and if he's locked up securely, he sure isn't going to attack anyone. I for one dislike intensely the idea of someone being killed for no purpose whatsoever. But then I'm funny that way.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:01:04 PM EST
    I for one dislike intensely the idea of someone being killed for no purpose whatsoever. You're not the only one, Al... But then I'm funny that way. The sane ones usually are, I think. I hope you never recover. :)

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#11)
    by aw on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:56:43 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 29, 2006 05:36 PM charlie - By "clearin" did you mean, "clearing?"
    charlie, PPJ seems to think he's "gotcha."

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:36:34 PM EST
    narius:
    Well, you are missing out on the pure pleasure of knowing that a terrorist is going to be dead! How sad. May be you can try harder next time
    No need. It's obviously got you harder already, narius.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:46:09 PM EST
    Personally, I'd kind of like to see life with no parole, in solitary. The fact that Moussaoui wants to die is reason enough for me to make him rot away for a few decades.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:58:40 PM EST
    Chase - This link explains why I think he should be executed. BTW - Despite the claims of all my Left Wing fans, I am not a Rightie, but a Social Liberal on everything except defense of the country. aw - Really? Now, who would want him? Roger - An excellent point, but I think his death will serve a greater good, bringing the moderates to us Did you catch this by me?

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#16)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:00:02 PM EST
    Well, you are missing out on the pure pleasure of knowing that a terrorist is going to be dead! How sad.
    And we claim to be the better civilization... edger:
    No need. It's obviously got you harder already, narius.
    LMFAO...

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#17)
    by phat on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:43:17 PM EST
    Executing this guy is stupid. It won't deter crime of any sort. It won't bring back the victims. It won't make all of victims' families feel better. It won't make Al Queda stop trying to kill Americans. It won't calm things down in Iraq. It won't help capture or kill Bin Laden. It won't keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons. It will give him what he wants. It will help motivate other people to try and get the same thing he is getting, either by our hands or by their own. Creating a martyr for the Al Queda cause is a truly, monumentally stupid move. phat

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:47:46 PM EST
    Chase, Remember his defense closed by arguing their client is a liar. Who is more trustworthy to you? Make some flip lawyer jokes, I put them there for the taking, but I tend, to put it lightly, to trust the sanity and truthfullness of his lawyers at this point. Do we make our system a clown show for every deluded wannabe that wants to make themselves a martrydom star by getting executed? The death penalty in general is something I don't believe a civilized nation should take part in. Period. And forget morality alone, just strategically, in the situation we face now, the DP serves no purpose whatsoever, none, nada -- especially, and this should be obvious, with people who are supposed to desire a martyr's death. It only serves the other side's purposes, while gaining us nothing. Except maybe a feeling of vengeance and bloodlust. But is that really what's going to help us now or later? Nope.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 11:33:00 PM EST
    phat: Executing this guy is stupid. Extremely. It will give him what he wants. It will help motivate other people to try and get the same thing he is getting, either by our hands or by their own. It will also give the bushlickers what they want. Another twisted justification to continue their fake WOT. Like narius, it just keeps getting harder for all of them to keep it up. They need continually greater levels of stimulation I guess.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:24:53 AM EST
    everytime narius gets excited, his head gets pointier

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:04:05 AM EST
    everytime narius gets excited, his head gets pointier Everybody has to have a dream, for those times when things get too hard.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#22)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:36:25 AM EST
    Edger, OMG! that was hideous! Tho Cheney looks just like my grade school librarian. And Kerry looks like a washed up drag queen.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:44:23 AM EST
    It is hideous to contemplate, isn't Che? Did you bring any gravol with you, by chance? ;-)

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:53:13 AM EST
    Posted by Dadler The death penalty in general is something I don't believe a civilized nation should take part in.
    I welcome this debate. It's an interesting topic with compelling arguments on both sides. However, I think it's off-topic of this thread so I will be patient, if it's all the same to you. And trust me, there won't be any flip lawyer jokes outta me ;-). You do make a valid point: Moussaoui's attorney is much more trustworthy than Moussaoui himself. But MacMahon (his defense) is not on trial here, Moussaoui is. Moussaoui's claim that he was to be aboard a fifth plane aimed at the WH is dubious at best. The prosecution never pushed this point, and I think it really only serves them as it shows the jury the delusional anti-Americanism and hate in his mind. But it's important to remember Moussaoui faces punishment, not for "almost" being the 20th hijacker but for failing to inform the government of the 9/11 plot--of which he had prior knowledge. Moussaoui stipulates that he attended a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan. I believe I've said it before, but this proves he had more than an idle hatred for America. Finally, the prosecution has shown that Moussaoui had communications with actual hijackers in the United States. Moussaoui claims he knew the World Trade Center would be a target, even though he didn't know exactly when. Had he revealed this fact to the FBI, along with the names of the terrorists he learned this from, the FBI very well may have prevented what happened on 9/11.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:12:38 AM EST
    Chase-
    I welcome this debate. It's an interesting topic with compelling arguments on both sides. However, I think it's off-topic of this thread so I will be patient, if it's all the same to you.
    Emphasis mine Would you rather discuss the death penalty when no one's life is at stake and a mere abstraction? I cannot imaging a more appropriate discussion for this topic. Not that I am expecting much insight from you... although I do welcome surprise more than expectation.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:20:32 AM EST
    Squeaky: I appreciate the offer but I must decline. My right-of-center viewpoint alone makes my presence on this blog unpopular. I would rather not raise the ire of TalkLeft by dragging the thread away from the post. Furthermore, I would like a little time to review the death penalty. I wouldn't want to get into a discussion without being prepared. Fair enough?

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:24:23 PM EST
    Chase, I am left of center and I appreciate your comments. We have extremists on both sides here and they all annoy me to a certain extent, some more than others. If I had a nickel for every time I told PPJ and Patrick they were dunderheads, I would have about $3. I think PPJ is bullheaded but cannot imagine the site without him. Same can be said for Patrick and SUO and Big Tex. I don't think I have ever seen Kdog go personal on anyone and Pigwiggle is restrained also. Sailor generally fights fair and I believe Dadler usually stays above board as well. There are plenty here on the left that will debate with integrity and plenty here who have a long history of insulting one another. I have no issue when PPJ calls me a sh*thead because I have done it to him several times, but I still look forward to his insanity.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:28:41 PM EST
    For those interested: I just checked again; CrimeLynx's links to sites pertaining to the death penalty are via the "Death Penalty" section via "Crime Policy" here.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:58:26 PM EST
    For non-French speakers: this is an English report relating to the French article/dossier links that I posted earlier; it is posted by The National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, whose French affiliate is Ensemble contre la peine de mort (Together Against the Death Penalty, headed by Michel Taube).

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 08:27:02 PM EST
    Jlvngstn writes:
    I have no issue when PPJ calls me a sh*thead because I have done it to him several times, but I still look forward to his insanity.
    I would never insult sh*theads. ;-) phat writes:
    It will give him what he wants.
    Hey, what are for friends for? et al - I repeat. His death would be solid evidence to the moderate Moslems that we are strong enough to stand up for them. This is truly win-win. He gets to Paradise and 72 virgins and we pick up support in the war.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:19:41 PM EST
    Make the guy a martyr for AQ, give him what he wants, that's the ticket. Isn't it a bit pro-terrorist to enable and fulfill the wishes of a self-admitted member of AQ? :>)

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 05:30:46 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 29, 2006 08:58 PM
    Chase - This link explains why I think he should be executed.
    No, it explains why the Judge ruled it out as a Legal Argument but left it in as evidence calling into question the credibility of Moussaoui's 9/11 plot confession. You can look it up.
    BTW - Despite the claims of all my Left Wing fans, I am not a Rightie, but a Social Liberal on everything except defense of the country.
    Keep repeatin' that nonsense, Jim. Maybe ya can convince yourself. Lord knows, nobody else is buyin' it.
    Roger - An excellent point, but I think his death will serve a greater good, bringing the moderates to us Did you catch this by me?
    Nobody hangs on your every word but you, Jim, and we know all to well that you'll remind us - sooner rather than later.

    Re: Jury Deliberating in Moussaoui (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 10:38:43 AM EST
    See PPJ I show you some love and you turn on me, I hope your typing finger gets sprained..... I cannot agree with your deterrency (made up word) argument as if it is glorious to die for the cause, he wins. A natural life in prison sentence would be more befitting if he is guilty and would serve as a message that you will serve the rest of your natural life in prison for such actions. Moussaoui wants to be a martyr, why oblige?