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'"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"'

From Lincoln, Nebraska and Bloomington, IL, to Jonesboro, TN and Tyler, TX to Atlanta, Philadelphia, New York City, Washington D.C. and dozens of more cities and towns across America, pro-immigrants rights advocates ruled the day, officially called, A National Day of Action for Immigrant Justice.

The rallies, whose mood was largely festive rather than angry, were the latest in recent weeks in response to a bill passed in the House that would speed up deportations, tighten border security and criminalize illegal immigrants. A proposal that would have granted citizenship to the vast majority of illegal immigrants collapsed in the Senate last week.

...the millions of immigrants who have quietly poured into this country over the past 16 years, most of them Hispanic, may be emerging as a potent political force.
Over and over again, construction workers, cooks, gardeners, sales associates and students who said they had never demonstrated before said they were rallying to send a message to the nation's lawmakers.

The best news is politicians and lawmakers may be willing to listen.

...the scope and size of the marches have astonished politicians on Capitol Hill as well as the churches and immigrant advocacy groups organizing the demonstrations, leading some immigrant advocates to hail what they describe as the beginnings of a new, largely Hispanic civil rights movement.

Some Republicans in Congress say the demonstrations have also recalibrated the debate on immigration legislation, forcing lawmakers to take into account the group's political muscle. ...Senator Sam Brownback, Republican of Kansas, who favors granting citizenship to illegal immigrants, said Monday: "I think everybody sees the immigrant community as an emerging force. I think everybody is quite sensitive that they don't want to be on the wrong side, politically, of this group."

Even conservative Sen. Lindsay Graham is taking note:

"Those who believe that they have no political vulnerability for the moment don't understand the future."

In Madison, WI, there was a mile long of marchers. In New York City, it was a multi-ethnic and cultural affair.

No rally was more diverse than New York's, where the thousands who converged at City Hall Park were greeted in Spanish, Chinese, French and Korean, and heard invocations by a rabbi and the leader of a Buddhist temple.

"We are inseparable, indivisible and impossible to take out of America," Chung-Wha Hong, executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition, told a spirited crowd that included hotel housekeepers from El Salvador, Senegalese street vendors, Chinese restaurant workers and Mexican laborers.

Yes, we need immigration reform. The reforms we need are ones which will:

  • Provide the opportunity for undocumented immigrants to legalize their status
  • Expand avenues for legal immigration and support family reunification
  • Provide access and options for permanent residency and citizenship
  • Strengthen labor protections and their enforcement for all workers, both native and foreign born
  • End the employer sanctions program
  • End border and immigration enforcement abuses
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    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#1)
    by Linkmeister on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:45:12 PM EST
    And the usual suspects grouse:
    Brit Hume, the news anchor on Fox News, described the marchers, particularly those carrying Mexican flags, as "a repellent spectacle."
    Rich Lowry, the editor of National Review, described the protests with marchers carrying foreign flags as "ominous" in "their hint of a large, unassimilated population existing outside America's laws and exhibiting absolutely no sheepishness about it."
    I used to think Hume was a halfway decent human being, back when he was with ABC. It's either something in the memos or water at Fox, or he hid it well earlier in his career.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:52:06 AM EST
    I guess they changed their minds about courting the Hispanic vote.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#3)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:47:08 AM EST
    and criminalize illegal immigrants
    isn't that redundent? illegal immigrants are, by definition, criminals, having committed the criminal act of entering the country without going through the legal process. as well, exactly how are undocumented immigrants planning on voting anyone in or out of office? did i miss something in civics class? again, i have no problem with the concept of immigration reform, clearly it's needed. i do have a problem, a major problem, with rewarding those who've committed criminal acts, by granting them amnesty. it was wrong when carter did it, it's wrong now. to do so is a slap in the face to all those who came to this country legally, and all those who obey the laws of the land. how will the politicians, especially republicans, reconcile this with their traditional "law & order" platform? they can't, without being obvious hypocrites. yeah, i know, that never bothered them before, why would i think it would now? simply put, they will get reamed at the polls. were i a challenger, i would bang them over the head with it, constantly. this is a country of immigrants, including the so called "native americans", whose ancestors also immigrated from elsewhere. the difference is, most of our ancestors came in legally, they didn't sneak in through the back door, while no one was looking. this is also a slap in the face to american labor, who will continue to see their real living standard drop, as the consequence of the poverty level wages illegals are willing to accept. again, were i a challenger, i'd beat this to a pulp. reform immigration laws, absolutely. but don't do it at the expense of those who followed the rules. otherwise, why have the rules in the first place?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:56:08 AM EST
    I hope no one moves into my house while I am on vacation. With the current sentiment I will have to let them stay when I return, make them part of the family. It would be cruel to make them leave, after all they are now used to my house and my resources.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#5)
    by fafnir on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:16:56 AM EST
    Hypocrites. So, it's okay for some people to break the law and escape accountability when they do the jobs that you don't want to do. Illegal immigration is a choice. They choose to come here illegally, and we choose not to enforce the laws - especially on those who hire them. But, why do they cross the border llegally? Jobs. Never mind that these are jobs that 19 million unemployed, less-educated, natives want to do (and that most less-educated natives do perform). Unemployment among less-educated immigrants (age 18-64, legal and illegal) is down to 5.2 percent from 5.5 percent. Unemployment among less-educated natives (age 18-64) is up over 10 percent. Go figure. So, what are the top three jobs that less-educated natives supposedly won't do and that less-educated illegals will do? These jobs are in construction, retail and restaurants/bars. The truth is that these are jobs that less-educated natives do perform overwhelming; however, their numbers and wages in these occupational areas are declining because businesses prefer to exploit illegal laborers with lower wages and poor working conditions. I don't understand why liberals express empathy for the corporate cheap labor agenda that exploits illegals, and none for native workers and families who are displaced by them.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#6)
    by fafnir on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:25:33 AM EST
    Posted by Jade April 11, 2006 05:56 AM I hope no one moves into my house while I am on vacation. With the current sentiment I will have to let them stay when I return, make them part of the family. It would be cruel to make them leave, after all they are now used to my house and my resources.
    Well said, Jade!

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:39:12 AM EST
    What jobs is it, exactly, that these illegal immigrants fill that Americans don't want? Where I live, a lot of them work on construction sites, and those are jobs plenty of Americans do and would work if they could get the jobs.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:43:45 AM EST
    Posted by fafnir April 11, 2006 06:16 AM
    Hypocrites. So, it's okay for some people to break the law and escape accountability when they do the jobs that you don't want to do.
    Si. Senor Cap Weinberger. Senor Elliot Abrams. Senor Juan Negroponte. Senor Admiralissimo Poindexter. Senor Scooter Libby. Presidente de Vice, Ricardo Cheney. Presidente Jorge el Busto.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:47:58 AM EST
    Where I live, a lot of them work on construction sites, and those are jobs plenty of Americans do and would work if they could get the jobs.
    And what's stoppin' 'em, jp?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:53:10 AM EST
    I used to think Hume was a halfway decent human being, back when he was with ABC. It's either something in the memos or water at Fox, or he hid it well earlier in his career.
    Really? So, this Michael Jackson being from another planet thing caught you totally by surprise, eh?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#11)
    by roxtar on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:57:49 AM EST
    "Where I live, a lot of them work on construction sites, and those are jobs plenty of Americans do and would work if they could get the jobs." Oh, Americans could get those jobs, alright. As long as they are willing to accept slave wages, and no recourse to correct dangerous working conditions on pain of deportation. Undocumented workers don't take anyone's job; those jobs are given to them by American employers looking to maximize their profits by exploiting a cheap and powerless labor pool.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:25:29 AM EST
    Oh, Americans could get those jobs, alright. As long as they are willing to accept slave wages, and no recourse to correct dangerous working conditions on pain of deportation. Roxtar, Next time you're in the DC-Metro area, driveout to PG County on New Hampshire Avenue at around 7:00 AM and stop at the first strip mall you see with a significant number of men standing around in the parking lot. You'll see that they are a mix of ethnicities, and that, in fact, quite a few of them are people born and raised right here in America. Ask them what they are doing and they will all tell you the same thing; they are waiting for the next truck looking for day laborers, and hoping that they get picked for it. Regardless of how you want to paint the conditions of this employment (and I've been to a number of construction sites in the last year and none of them matched your description), Americans are competing for these jobs with immigrants both legal and illegal. So again, what jobs are these immigrants taking that Americans don't want?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:34:14 AM EST
    People power is a beautiful thing to see in action. I love it. These people are not our enemies, unless we want to make them our enemies by felonizing them.
    they didn't sneak in through the back door, while no one was looking
    That's because they didn't have to cp...we were begging for immigrants when our ancestors came. Now, if we weren't begging for immigrants, would they have come anyway? My great grandparents surely would have, hearing the stories about the conditions in their repective old countries. And I wouldn't consider them criminals...just huddled masses yearning to live free.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#14)
    by aw on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:54:24 AM EST
    I read that mining companies are looking to hire immigrants now. You know what that means: lower pay, escalating neglect of mine safety and miners health. Let's see just how low they can go. And I don't think anyone can say these are jobs are ones that natives don't want, dangerous as they are.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:01:35 AM EST
    tell you what, TL: From now on, whenever you go to the movies, I'll jump into the line in front of you, along with 100 friends. When you accuse us of line jumping, we'll claim to be oppressed. Sounds fair, and completely consistent with your views on illegal immigrants.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:05:00 AM EST
    Once and for all, there is no job an American won't do. That I know of. There are wages that Americans won't work for. Americans will not accept "zero benefits". The 20th century taught us a better way. Better for 95% of us anyway, the richest 5% probably disagree. They would probably prefer the 19th century model.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#17)
    by Steven Sanderson on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:20:51 AM EST
    In the on-going immigration reform debate much of the conversation is centered on low-wage, dead-end jobs and whether or not immigrants are taking these jobs away from U.S. citizens. Shouldn't we be concentrating on the higher-wage, middle-class jobs that are being shipped out of the country? Or do conservatives prefer to keep kicking the poor immigrants as the (jobs) playing field is leveled, and lowered, to third world status?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:47:38 AM EST
    Next time you're in the DC-Metro area, driveout to PG County on New Hampshire Avenue at around 7:00 AM and stop at the first strip mall you see with a significant number of men standing around in the parking lot. You'll see that they are a mix of ethnicities, and that, in fact, quite a few of them are people born and raised right here in America. How far is that from the Mexican border? Because I live 50 miles from it. JP you are a real hoot when you're not completely FOS.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#19)
    by swingvote on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:54:09 AM EST
    Another typical response from Che Chavez, What does the distance from the Mexican border have to do with it, Che? Do you think illegals do not exist beyond the 50 mile mark? Are you declarling that everyone who makes it past that mark is automatically legal? If so, please contact the DC-Metro police and the PG County police and tell them that those 1800+ illegals they rounded up in a 10 month sweep since last summer were all legal and must be released immediately. That too will be a hoot. Or is today's Chavez promotion based on the belief that illegal immigrants taking jobs Americans don't want are only doing so within your magical 50 mile border zone? Hell, was there a point at all to your comment, other than your usual BS? If illegal immigrants are taking jobs Americans don't want, you should be able to provide at least one example of such.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:28:13 AM EST
    Typical JP, JR DON'T LET THE FACTS STAND IN THE WAY OF A GOOD TANTRUM Response. I know, let's pretend it's all the Democrats' fault. Never mind that the nitwit in chief has been pushing this guest worker program to satisfy his base - the business community who wants cheap labor - and rovesputin who desperately wants to cultivate the Hispanic vote because he knows the klan vote won't continue to pull them through.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:51:49 AM EST
    I never quite understood why the crowd that wants to close our borders and make illegal immigrants felons also gives a nod to corporate welfare, offshore companies avoiding taxes, and any general corrupt and illegal project as long as it is done by a brand name american co. They distrust of the poor and characterize them as robbing America blind; they take food and jobs away from real Americans. I do not get it. Is it about natural selection? The urge to be on the winning team? It is just crazy. The jobs and healthcare are being stolen by bloated corporations who spend far more lobbying than the total amount of money spent on illegal and legal immigrants wages. Maybe it just boils down to schoolyard politics where the weakest are told what they can and cannot do by the bullies or suffer the consequences. Also where does a sense of entitlement fit into a free market system. I'll tell you: When people take their high wage jobs and all the benefits included for granted, they run the risk of becoming obsolete n favor of those who are willing to work at lower wages, longer hours, and with no frills the entitled group is left in the dust. Odd that the quality of work does not go down and sometimes improves. That is when the die hard freepers scream for regulation.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:53:57 AM EST
    charlie, you don't think the head spins performed by Reid, Pelosi, and feinstein (check out their early to mid 90's positions on illegal immigration) are the same thing? Both parties are spinning in ways that are counter to the wishes of a large majority of the public. That's likely to lead to a third party candidacy in 2008 or 2012, with the third party running on one issue - illegal immigration. While both parties ignore the moderate desire to get control of illegal border crossing, demands for more radical reform will rise. The longer this goes on, the more likely will be a nasty turn towards a 1924 style immigration shutdown. Most people don't oppose legal immigration. The problem now is that the legal system for entry is onerous and broken - and the periodic amnesties for illegals encourages more illegal crossings. The right answer is to do two things: 1) Make the legal entry system work properly and speedily 2) Shutdown the illegal crossings - although (1) will help do that all by itself.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:57:38 AM EST
    j.p - Im still waiting for that retraction; before your credibility dissolves into nothingness. Che Chavez.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:58:00 AM EST
    The Dems are pro big-business too, they just are more sly about it. That is one instance where Republicans are more honest. Both our parties love the status quo.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:04:49 AM EST
    And dont jump up and down so much. Youre gonna hurt something.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:12:53 AM EST
    Squeaky - Exactly. Its barnyard pecking order politics: kiss up and kick down.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:14:25 AM EST
    Boy, from all these postings, a lot of you xenophobes must really be having a hard time finding fruit-picking jobs. Mr. Sanderson makes a well-framed point. There is no reason to believe that the jobs immigrants are working now would go to Americans if mass deportations ensue. More likely, businesses would respond by sending the jobs they could offshore, replace the rest with machines, and the businesses that couldn't do either would declare bankruptcy. Immigrants here who work all pay sales taxes and support American businesses both small and large. They also pay property taxes through rents and many pay income taxes through TINs and false socials. The average immigrant will put in $80K more into the system than s/he will recieve from it. If the jobs were offshored or mechanized, we would obviously lose these benefits of having these consumers and taxpayers, not to mention what would happen to the real estate market, which would crash our entire economy. What the xenophobes want would destroy America.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:23:42 AM EST
    Hit a nerve did I? Ouch! 1800 in ten months. Wow. No wonder the masses are so up in arms. JP, if you have to stomp on the "ILLEGALS ARE HERE TOO!" arguement to debate me then this will be quick. First of all, your position is misguided at best, and racist at worst. To focus on the workers as the core of the problem is just so unintelligent as to have me laughing if I weren't so disgusted. If you cannot see with your own eyes that your government is conspiring with big business to protect a policy of maintaining a slave labor pool. If illegal immigrants are taking jobs Americans don't want, Oh please stop HANDING me that crap. Those jobs pay S**T! If you are a legal resident, unless you are retarded, you will NOT take that job for 15 bucks a day. That's what they pay. It is MORE PROFITABLE to get welfare or unemployment. Lastly, let me clue you in on a little known fact. Those men on the corner of anytown, USA are there because the people who pick them up actually pay over TWICE as much as agribusinesses or Mall Wart. Illegal or not, if the big profiteers actually paid a living wage, those guys would't be on your pretty corner, making you all uncomfortable. One example. An "unpublished observation": If I have to move my 3 bdrm equivalent home to another regional location, I will pay AT LEAST 10 bucks an hour to each guy I hire. Usually two guys for about 5-6 hours. That's about $120 plus lunch at a local stand. Add the truck for about $45 (U-haul one day 16 ft). I have moved for about $200. How much would a moving company charge me? The difference? The guys on the corner are not bonded. I will actually have to be involved in supervising their work. But I will save big bucks. Thus the demand. Are you getting any of this?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:28:00 AM EST
    Should read: You cannot see with your own eyes that your government is conspiring with big business to protect a policy of maintaining a slave labor pool.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:38:40 AM EST
    Posted by JRT April 10, 2006 08:17 PM Posted by Che: Too bad that white middle class amerika (what's left of it) doesn't have the same interest in getting off their fat asses and learning about the issue instead of evoking the usual "Close the border!" fantasy. My response: Che- get off of YOUR fatass and come to my city and learn what the illegals have done to destroy it. Visit the overcrowded schools- the illegals pack multiple families into single family homes. Listen to the horns honking at 5:00 A.M.- they are too lazy to knock on the door. Listen to the booming subwoofers and ridiculous loud mufflers on their cars. Notice the out of state license plates- the neighboring state does not require insurance. Go to the emergency room and see the uninsured illegals using it as a free clinic. Listen to the gunshots as they settle their gang disputes. Look at the graffit of the Latin Kings and MS-13. Don't you DARE defend these scum and call me a middle class white fatass you f***ing communist. You have know idea what you are talking about. By the way, they do not take care of my kids or cut my lawn and I'll outwork anyone of the little parasites
    Charlie, what are you missing? I think my post is clear. You are 0 for forever in directly responding to my posts.Just try to take any sentence and address it directly.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:41:12 AM EST
    Posted by Che's Lounge April 11, 2006 11:28 AM Should read: You cannot see with your own eyes that your government is conspiring with big business to protect a policy of maintaining a slave labor pool.
    Of course I see it and I am not OK with it. Why is the left OK with it?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:41:35 AM EST
    Well said Peter James and Che.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:57:24 AM EST
    I'm not OK with it at all....just not willing to blame and felonize the guy on the bottom trying to survive. All the border security in the world does nothing if the "off the books" jobs are still here waiting, and employers are still looking for a way around the min. wage, disability insurance, etc. Thanks in part to ever-growing xenophobia and a sensational news media...this debate is so far off course it's not even funny. Nobody wants to look up for the causes...only down.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:01:21 AM EST
    JRT - "Your government and big business" is the Left? Yes or no.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:12:05 AM EST
    I'm not OK with it at all....just not willing to blame and felonize the guy on the bottom trying to survive.
    Except, of course, the overwhelming vast majority of them are not trying to survive, but rather, to get ahead. Both honorable goals, for sure, but the one sounds a lot more melodramtic than the other, more accurate, one...

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:15:36 AM EST
    Posted by kdog April 11, 2006 11:57 AM I'm not OK with it at all....just not willing to blame and felonize the guy on the bottom trying to survive. All the border security in the world does nothing if the "off the books" jobs are still here waiting, and employers are still looking for a way around the min. wage, disability insurance, etc. Thanks in part to ever-growing xenophobia and a sensational news media...this debate is so far off course it's not even funny. Nobody wants to look up for the causes...only down.
    Read my description of the problems my small city faces from illegals and tell me why you would call that Xenophobia. For the record, I do place more blame for this on the government than I do on the illegals themselves. The problems I have with the illegals are clearly stated in my post above and have nothing to do with race or xenophobia. My information comes from direct observation, not from "sensational news media". for

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:21:45 AM EST
    Posted by Jondee April 11, 2006 12:01 PM JRT - "Your government and big business" is the Left? Yes or no.
    I think you know who the left is, smartass. How old are you? I have yet to see a post from you reach beyond a seventh grade level.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:30:28 AM EST
    JRT - I think we have a problem of perception. I live in a city (Rochester N.Y), thats in the top ten in the nation for per capita murder rate; in which 2 out of 5 kids live in poverty; with a dense mix of Ethiopians, Mexicans, S.E Asians, Jamaicans etc, and I still dont experience the claustraphobic nightmare that you've delineated. Why is that do you suppose?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    How old are you? I have yet to see a post from you reach beyond a seventh grade level.
    .this is the most 'seventh grade' comment I have seen in a while. Funny how insults can be so revealing....about the insulter that is,

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:39:58 AM EST
    I know small border communities are having problems, as are some northern communities. Take it up with those who are offering jobs to illegal immigrants. Your local restaraunt owner, the local laundry, the local produce farm, the local day care center, the housekeeping service. It's ok for the immigrant to wash the dishes at your local eatery but not ok for him to use your hospital? Maybe if we didn't offer millions of jobs to illegals, their home countries would have no choice but to get their houses more in order. Or the immigrants would have no choice but to fight to end the corruption in their home countries and improve conditions. As it is now, big business and govt. are more than happy to exploit the situation. suo...perhaps survive is the wrong word, better to say "get by". I too can't blame anybody for trying to get by. Focusing the reform efforts on punishing immigrants won't solve a thing, IMO.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:42:47 AM EST
    I may be in the seventh grade, but I know the angry white man syndrome when I see it. Btw, Have you seen Ms. Cooper the English teacher? She's totally HOT!

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:07:33 PM EST
    So let me consider this - if I want to keep illegals out, I'm racist. Hmm. The unemployment rate among black men in the city of Baltimore is astoundingly high. Every day, in my neighborhood, illegals cut lawns and tend to gardens every day. If you think the service is "cheap", you don't live here. So explain to me how there are no Americans that could do those jobs, given the huge unemployment levels in Baltimore, and the jobs right here, 25 miles south? You think those illegals don't need transport to their jobs? Who's the racist? The one who wants to keep the illegals working and the poor Americans on welfare, or me?

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:19:52 PM EST
    I hear you kdog, trouble is some people actually believe that type rhetoric - from both sides.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:21:18 PM EST
    Take it up with those who are offering jobs to illegal immigrants. Your local restaraunt owner, the local laundry, the local produce farm, the local day care center, the housekeeping service. It's ok for the immigrant to wash the dishes at your local eatery but not ok for him to use your hospital?
    My problem is that they don't pay to use the hospital. They can well afford insurance with the money they save living several families per house, but they send their money to Mexico rather than purchase they items that we are obligated to purchase such as insurance. Jondee, the difference is that I live in a suburb that did not have these problems before they illegals came. It is that clear. The problems are also very avoidable if they would show a little consideration for there new neighbors.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:23:17 PM EST
    So explain to me how there are no Americans that could do those jobs, given the huge unemployment levels in Baltimore, and the jobs right here, 25 miles south?
    Americans will do it James. But they want 12 bucks an hour, medical coverage, paid sick days and vacation. So, the landscaping company owner goes to 7/11 and grabs a guy to do it for $75 a day, no benefits, if he chops off his finger with the hedgeclipper he's on his own. Do you really think a wall or throwing the guy at the 7/11 parking lot in jail is gonna solve a damn thing? His cousin is there to replace him tomorrow.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:29:05 PM EST
    JR-
    Hmm. The unemployment rate among black men in the city of Baltimore is astoundingly high.
    Rather than complain about the illegals stealing the welfare blacks jobs, (I am certian that you also complain about welfare) why don't you start an activist movement to train and hire all those onemployed black men. That would be putting your money where your mouth is.
    Who's the racist? The one who wants to keep the illegals working and the poor Americans on welfare, or me?
    You.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:35:22 PM EST
    They can well afford insurance with the money they save living several families per house
    C'mon JRT. That statement tells me you have no clue how much an off the books dishwasher makes and how much health insurance costs, or an emergency room visit bill costs. Even in the over-crowded "boarding houses" propping up in my neck of the woods up north, the immigrants are paying $100 a week for a cot, 5 or 6 to a room. They make around $75 a day. Food, clothes, feeding the family back home...what's left for health insurance or medical bills? As an aside, the homeowners setting up these illegal boarding houses are making a killing. They wouldn't make as much renting to a family of four or five. They are more than happy with the status quo as well, add them to the "who is benefitting" list with govt. and business. SUO...guilty as charged. I try to leave out the rhetoric, but it's difficult when you hear a lot of rhetoric. I'm tryin' brother.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:50:39 PM EST
    I could do the math for you, but all you need to know is that they are sending BILLIONS to Mexico. They should live up to their obligations here before sending money to Mexico. I have to pay for my own insurance and yet they treat the emergency rooms as a free clinic for non-emergency ailments like colds and flu. One hospital has closed and the other is in serious trouble as a direct result of this.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    I don't think they are sending money orders to Vicente Fox JRT. They are taking care of their families the best way they know how. What would you do in their shoes? I don't know what the hospitals are like where you live, but if I went to my local emergency room with the flu, I'd be well before my name got called. No joke, it happened just a month ago. I was puking my guts out and figured I'd head to the hospital for an IV since I couldn't keep fluids in me. After a 4 hour wait followed by a 4 hour nap, I said "screw it" and went home. Me thinks you are exaggerating, but I'm sure the hospitals are in fact having problems. Part of the blame must go to our broken health care system, not all on the "selfish" immigrants wanting to see doctors. You could easily blame the millions of American citizens who go to the emergency room without insurance.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:11:35 PM EST
    Very well said kdog.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:21:39 PM EST
    Indeed, kdog. The fact that the US has the most dysfunctional health system in the developed world has nothing to do with immigrants. It has everything to do with insurance companies and bureuacracy. Anyone laying blame for our monstrosity at the feet of immigrants is deeply dishonest. Make immigrants pay for all I care; then you would see that it changes nothing.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:30:30 PM EST
    Me thinks you are exaggerating, but I'm sure the hospitals are in fact having problems. Part of the blame must go to our broken health care system, not all on the "selfish" immigrants wanting to see doctors. You could easily blame the millions of American citizens who go to the emergency room without insurance.
    Our "broken healthcare system" is the result of a huge increase in demand from many sources and for many reasons. Yes- I can and do blame the millions of uninsured Americans,excepting the truly needy.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:35:34 PM EST
    Posted by Peter James Bond April 11, 2006 02:21 PM Indeed, kdog. The fact that the US has the most dysfunctional health system in the developed world has nothing to do with immigrants. It has everything to do with insurance companies and bureuacracy. Anyone laying blame for our monstrosity at the feet of immigrants is deeply dishonest. Make immigrants pay for all I care; then you would see that it changes nothing
    It would make a huge difference in the areas where they are concentrated. Don't forget the frivoulous lawsuits when placing blame. Look at John Edwards and his fraudulent malpractice claims in CP cases as an excellent example.http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200401\POL20040120a.html

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:55:19 PM EST
    Now we are getting somewhere JRT. Yes, frivolous lawsuits are part of the problem, though patients who are legitimately wronged need access to the courts. The huge health insurance bueracracy is part of the problem. They make a killing on the status quo and resist any attempt at meaningful reform to make health care available and affordable to all. If all the immigrants left your community tomorrow, their jobs would have to be filled by Americans, who also would not be getting health insurance. The problems at your hospitals remain. Think about it.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:41:09 PM EST
    They need an avenue of redress, but they don't need to win the lottery. Another factor is the general lack of good health habits here, combined with demand for a plethora of demand driven drugs advertised on T.V. I don't think that all those jobs need to be filled. More people can cut their own grass, take care of their own kids and eat less fast foods. More to the point, whoever is using services needs to pay for those services to the extent that they can. This is a huge problem locally if not nationally.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:49:49 PM EST
    They need an avenue of redress, but they don't need to win the lottery. Another factor is the general lack of good health habits here, combined with demand for a plethora of demand driven drugs advertised on T.V. I don't think that all those jobs need to be filled. More people can cut their own grass, take care of their own kids and eat less fast foods. More to the point, whoever is using services needs to pay for those services to the extent that they can. This is a huge problem locally if not nationally.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:58:26 PM EST
    I'd bet very good money that the poor, unemployed of Baltimore would do yard work (etc) for less than $12/hour. Right now, no one gives them any options. Instead, we ship in illegals, who end up being in what amounts to indentured servitude. Yeah, that sounds "progressive" to me. Meet the new elitists: over there, on the left.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#54)
    by swingvote on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:36:41 PM EST
    Jondee, Right. I'll retract my honest statement about the left's support of Arianna's lies when you retract every blatantly false statement you have made about me based on your misguided notion that I am some kind of hardcore conservative "winger".

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#59)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:48:40 PM EST
    JRT, You complain a lot but propose no solutions that I have seen. What city are you in? Why have we not heard of this terrible epidemic of bad behavior. You come to a site like this and whine like that, we'll eat you alive. Don't you DARE defend these scum and call me a middle class white fatass you f***ing communist. I love that stuff! JRT's post from 11:38 am infer's (among other things) that I empathize with the illegals. I merely state the phenomenon. If anyone is exhibiting any kind of subjective opinion of the undocs, it is Mr. JRT. What tics me off is that attacking the immigrants is a total cop out. Though the thread is in danger of veering OT into health care (of which I am professionally attached), I will try to stay OT by using a medical analogy (though it could also be applied to law). When a patient presents with symptoms, we don't treat the symptoms until we know what caused them, as THE SYMPTOM IS NOT THE DISEASE. The same also applies to politics (as my 30 years of casual study and life experiences have taught me). With immigration, the people that come here illegally are not the problem. They are the SIGN of the problem. But this problem simply does not affect the people who are charged with rectifying the situation. You know, those folks we voted for (supposedly). Thus far they have been thwarted, by MASSIVE demonstrations, in their attempts to criminalize 11 million people so that their friends in the boardrooms won't have to pay decent wages to organized workers for even the most menial jobs. Those very organized workers who would keep the illegals out by taking those now-decent wage, benefitted jobs. Couple this with improving the work visa program to speed the process and increase the number of visas granted. Like I've said before, one or two months of Iraq war money would cover the improvements needed in the INS permanently. Now I realize that using the term organized labor is an immediate put off to fascist libertarians, corporate republicans and just about any impressionnble american who has seen "Hoffa" one too many times. Corporate america has administrative infrastructures, executive flowcharts, organizational conferences with video links for interdepartmental coordination, and of course white house briefings. But God in heaven please in all your mercy save us all from the apocalypse if 15 or 20 workers get together in a group and talk about organizing in any way. So JRT, jot it down and mull it over during study hall. Maybe you'll learn something valuable.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:13:32 AM EST
    Che: Too bad that white middle class amerika (what's left of it) doesn't have the same interest in getting off their fat asses and learning about the issue instead of evoking the usual "Close the border!" fantasy. Che- don't take my quote out of context- I was replying to your remark. Why did you feel the need to single ot whites? Healthcare was just one of my points and it happened to be the one that Kdog chose to discuss rationally with me. It is a fact that my city of Waukegan,IL is overwhelmed by the influx of illegals. The schools are overcrowded, not due to new housing, but due to increasing numbers of illegals pacing into single family homes.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#61)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    JRT, I grew up in Milwaukee and have been to Waukegan several times. I think your problem is not illegal immigrants so much as being too close to Chitown. You've got some gang stuff going on but I don't see any articles in your local paper on-line that describe any migrant worker problems. As usual your anger is misdirected. I'm just not finding any data to support your tantrums. But I'll hang in. There are only two more days of Spring break.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:28:29 PM EST
    Don't forget the frivoulous lawsuits when placing blame. Look at John Edwards and his fraudulent malpractice claims in CP cases as an excellent
    RNC talking point designed to bash Edwards by creating fear. Malpractice claims represent less than 1% of healthcare cost... the fradulent ones a mere fraction of that.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#63)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:21:52 PM EST
    John McCain is offering $50 an hour to anyone who will go to Yuma and pick lettuce for the entire season. I dunno, sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I hope someone takes him up on it.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:51:55 PM EST
    Where did you hear that Pat? Does he think Americans can't hack the work? Sheeet, I'll take 25 an hour if he throws in medical and dental insurance. Seriously. I'd want a contract though, sounds too good to be true.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:59:25 PM EST
    Found a link for the Mccain offer He can't be serious. No lettuce farm owner is gonna pay that. I'm gonna email his office, and he's willing to guarantee in writing $25 an hour plus medical/dental, I'm taking my arse to Yuma for the season to prove his arse wrong. As I said before, I believe there is no job Americans won't do for the right wages and benefits. It can't be that much harder than digging ditches in the Florida sun for 8 hours a day.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:12:43 PM EST
    Posted by Che's Lounge April 12, 2006 02:04 PM JRT, I grew up in Milwaukee and have been to Waukegan several times. I think your problem is not illegal immigrants so much as being too close to Chitown. You've got some gang stuff going on but I don't see any articles in your local paper on-line that describe any migrant worker problems. As usual your anger is misdirected. I'm just not finding any data to support your tantrums. But I'll hang in. There are only two more days of Spring break.
    You are way off base. We are 40 miles from Chicago and several of the suburbs in between have none of these problems. You will never see a direct negative reference to illegal immigrants in the local paper. There are two writers that cover the Mexican issues and both of them would make you people look like Reagan republicans.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:16:38 PM EST
    kdog-typical political rhetoric.
    He offered anybody in the crowd $50 an hour to pick lettuce in Arizona.
    Don't think he will take you up on your offer.
    "I'll take it," one man said. Mr. McCain insisted that none of them would do such menial labor for a complete season. "You can't do it, my friends," he said.
    Guess he was just being theoretical.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#68)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:25:40 PM EST
    Or theatrical. Typical politician. Saying whatever they think will win the moment. Anyone blaming one party over another is dillusional. They are all the same. However he did say it, and he said he would pay out of his pocket. The lettuce farmer's getting free labor and John's picking up the tab.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:06:26 PM EST
    I just sent an email to McCain's office through his website saying I accept. I'm sure there are millions of others like me who would do it. Does he even have a clue about what working people earn? New York's Bravest don't make 50 bucks an hour, and then run into burning buildings! In fact, my friend whose in the FDNY is always looking for side jobs to get by, maybe he will go with me for a season. I eagerly await his response...aka form letter. It just shows how much McCain and the rest of our so-called leaders are out of touch. I guess when you're always rolling with people making 500 bucks an hour, it's easy to get out of touch. These fools in Washington need to get out more. I'm hoping this gaffe helps get the debate back on track, instead of the current "blame the immigrant" game they are playing. It's about the wages, not the work. Thanks for the heads up Pat...that one really gets my goat.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:08:48 PM EST
    Posted by Squeaky April 12, 2006 02:28 PM Don't forget the frivoulous lawsuits when placing blame. Look at John Edwards and his fraudulent malpractice claims in CP cases as an excellent RNC talking point designed to bash Edwards by creating fear. Malpractice claims represent less than 1% of healthcare cost... the fradulent ones a mere fraction of that.
    Does calling it a talking point make it untrue? Edwards was a complete fraud and has been proven wrong in several studies. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200401%5CPOL20040120a.html Also, 1% is a big number for payouts and does not include all the defensive doctoring(CYA) that increases our medical costs. In Illinois many OB/GYNs are leaving practice due to high malpractice premiums. I'll guarantee you that their cost is much more than 1% of sales and I can, in fact find out.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:19:39 PM EST
    JRT
    Does calling it a talking point make it untrue?
    At this point in time, with this admin.... Yes it does make it untrue.

    Re: '"Today We March,Tomorrow We Vote!"' (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:16:00 PM EST
    I should have also said, the McCain game, "blame the lazy American worker". Allow me to borrow from some englishman...who?