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Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admits Making First 911 Call

The second dancer in the Duke Lacrosse alleged rape case is speaking out. You can watch the video here.

It's a completely underwhelming, cut and paste video. It's not start to finish, but an edited compilation of her statements. The reporter states the dancer's lawyer put very strict conditions on the interview and wouldn't let her discuss details of that night. She does say she wasn't paying great attention at the time.

"If I could see the future and would have known what that night would've brought, I would have paid more attention. I wish I had paid more attention to everything that happened around me," she said.

She expresses faith in the District Attorney, but won't say why, other than to say she doesn't think he would investigate if there wasn't a crime. Blind faith in law enforcement?

She does acknowledge making the first 911 call in which she complained that one (and then more) players made racially based insults. As to the discrepancies in her call, she says she was trying to prevent her parents from finding out she was a paid exotic dancer.

The defense lawyers say they have interviewed her numerous times and she will have a hard time back-tracking from the accounts she provided them. They say she told them the accuser never mentioned being raped to her.

The dancer says the woman who left the party was "not the same woman" as the one who arrived, she was under the influence of something when she left -- it sounds like she is intimating the accuser was drugged. She had never met the accuser before that night. The accuser arrived a half hour after she did -- they didn't have much time together before leaving the house.

Why is she speaking out now? No good answer to that either. "It felt like the right time." Right, the night before the DA goes to the grand jury.

The dancers drove off at 12:41. The first 911 call was made at 12:53. They had 12 minutes to decide to call 911 and complain about the racial slurs. Why was no rape allegation made in the first call? Why did the second dancer tell the 911 operator nothing but racial slurs had happened? You can listen to the call here.

They left the party together. If the accuser appeared drugged or was passed out, why did the dancer call 911 to report only racial slurs? Why wouldn't she have told the 911 operator she had someone in her car who was incapacitated?

The grocery store was two miles from the party. The police station was a mile away. Why did they go to the grocery store? And why didn't they arrive there until 1:22 -- 50 minutes after they left the party. Even if they had sat in the parking lot for 10 minutes, that would still leave 40 minutes to go two miles. You can listen to the grocery store clerk's 911 call made at 1:22 here.

"Um, the problem is ... it's a lady in somebody else's car and she will not get out of their car. She's like, she's like intoxicated, drunk or something. She's, I mean, she won't get out of the car, period. "

The accuser was still passed out when the police arrived at 1:30.

And here's the answer about the missing fingernails: Photos show they were missing from her fingers while the two were still dancing -- before either left the house the first time.

Another photo, taken at midnight, is the first picture of the two dancers, including the accuser, who were hired to dance at the party. The accuser is dressed in a pink and white negligee. Attorneys have said that although the women were given at least one drink at the party, they believe the accuser was already impaired when she arrived at the party.

Pictures taken over the next few minutes show the women on top of one another other. The photos also show what appear to be bruises on the accuser's knee. Her right shoe is off, and her press-on nails are missing. The men in the background are sitting back casually watching without much noticeable reaction. Three minutes after they begin to dance, at 12:03 a.m., the dancers are photographed near the door. Attorneys say they are leaving the party.

Now it makes a little sense.

There is a gap in the photos from 12:03 a.m. until 12:30 a.m. in which the two dancers were not photographed. Attorneys believe the women were in a bathroom, alone. One woman, they believe, was changing her clothes during that time, and the accuser may have been painting her fingernails. They believe that because later on, when she fell on the back stairs, there were pink marks on the stairwell.

As to being drugged, perhaps the accuser took some pills while she was in the bathroom? Is there any evidence of a date rape drug that was found at the party house?

As for the DA, this takes the cake. If voters need another reason to vote against him in May, here it is:

Defense attorneys said they had offered to show the pictures to District Attorney Mike Nifong, but he declined to see them. "As I understand the exchange, as it was reported to me, the DA is not interested in a discussion about our evidence," said defense attorney Bob Ekstrand.

I'm not expecting any indictments tomorrow. I don't see how this case can be presented to the grand jury in a single day, unless it's a complete railroad job. The grand jury doesn't meet again for two weeks.

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    Hi TL, You wrote: "why didn't they arrive there until 1:22 -- 50 minutes after they left the party." Bissey has it that the car carrying the dancers left the house three minutes before the police arrived... which would be at approximately 12:52, just 30 minutes before the Angel made her 911 call. Even the photographic evidence has the women at the party at 12:41, still only 41 minutes from 1:22. Is your error there intentional? Is it some form of mathematical hyperbole? Or is it just a mistake?

    TalkLeft posted:
    The dancers drove off at 12:41. The first 911 call was made at 12:53. They had 12 minutes to decide to call 911 and complain about the racial slurs. Why was no rape allegation made in the first call? Why did the second dancer tell the 911 operator nothing but racial slurs had happened? You can listen to the call here.
    TalkLeft seems to have "blind faith" in the defense timeline. The photo time stamped 12:41 has been described as a partygoer helping her in the car. How do we know they drove off at that time? Bissey has the car driving off 11 minutes after that photo's time stamp - about three minutes before the police arrive at 12:55. That would mean the 911 call was made one minute after the car drove off. The 12:41 - 12:52 is an 11 minute gap that Kim, hopefully, can explain. The accuser could have reentered the house at this point, to look for her purse, money, cell phone, make up, ID, and that darn shoe that is yet to be recovered. We don't know if the accuser told Kim she had been raped. Almost half an hour later she is described by the security guard as "barely talking." I think if Kim could have gotten her to calm down enough to get her address, she would have taken her home not to Krogers. That would be the best way to avoid not getting involved in a police report - other than just kicking her out of the car (it sounds like even the security call couldn't accomplish that).

    It's a completely underwhelming, cut and paste video. It's not start to finish, but an edited compilation of her statements.
    Dang journalists!
    The reporter states the dancer's lawyer put very strict conditions on the interview and wouldn't let her discuss details of that night.
    Dang lawyers!
    She does say she wasn't paying great attention at the time.
    Dang dancers!

    Let's see what the facts are.

    Jade said:
    the rich and privileged
    Maybe I have missed something, but assuming the above refers to the lax players, but what evidence has been presented to establish them as rich or privileged? And exactly what difference would this make, esp. considering the argument that backgrounds are irrelevant?

    Gee, Chase. Let's see. The fact that they're not all there on full rides. The fact that they go to Duke in the first place. The cost to go there is a matter of public record. The fact that somebody is payin' for that high priced legal/PR talent of theirs. Any more BP fastballs?

    charlie: Odd you draw that conclusion. It does certainly reveal your biases and prejudice. Could it possibly be they are taking out huge loans to attend Duke? Or might it be that their parents are making extensive sacrifices to secure their children a superior education? Sure, some of them are probably from rich families. But there is no way (at all, none) that ALL of them are. In fact, I can virtually guarantee that there are members of the team from every level of the economic ladder. You sure are quick to buy into the negative stereotypes and run right off the edge of the 'bias' cliff, aren't you?

    Talk Left posted:
    The defense lawyers say they have interviewed her numerous times and she will have a hard time back-tracking from the accounts she provided them.
    Gee, do ya think seasoned defense attorneys may have been able to get her to make statements that benefit their clients? Do you think they would be familiar with techniques used to box her into these statements? Do you think a jury won't be able to see what they were up to? Jurors have a pretty good nose for this type of "sneaky business." TalkLeft posted:
    Why is she speaking out now? No good answer to that either. "It felt like the right time." Right, the night before the DA goes to the grand jury.
    Here's my guess: maybe she is speaking out now because she can no longer stomach the defense team using her statements to endorse their version of events. newsweek.com
    The second woman supports the partygoers' story, says Thomas, who says he has seen a summary of an interview with her conducted by a member of the defense team. "Their versions are basically identical," he says. But Mark Simeon, an attorney for the second dancer, tells NEWSWEEK that Thomas's claim is not accurate. "She rejects the notion that she agrees with their timeline. I've shown their story line to my client, and she says there's a lot that's wrong with it. From the beginning, she has been cooperating fully with [Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong] and the police, and she looks forward to testifying truthfully at the trial." Thomas replies, "She has given us several statements, so I don't see any room for her to change her story now simply because she has a lawyer speaking for her." Nifong could not be reached for comment.
    TalkLeft posted:
    As to being drugged, perhaps the accuser took some pills while she was in the bathroom? Is there any evidence of a date rape drug that was found at the party house?
    There were some pills collected when the search warrant was served. We don't know what they are or how they got there. Maybe there are some women that have "hooked up" with the lacrosse players and have some pertinent info. I read at Princeton the players refer to these type of "fans" as lacrosstitutes. Sweet.

    wral.com
    12:02:16 a.m. The accuser is on top of the second dancer. The accuser's right thumbnail does not have a fingernail or polish on it. Her right pinky nail also does not have a nail. The men are smiling. The dancers are smiling.
    Does that mean the other three fingers on the right hand are visable in the photo and there are nails present? If so, do they have red nail polish on them?

    Chase, I will consider myself and anyone else rich and privileged when boosters of an elite university buys me the ex-president's impeachment lawyer, and buys me a Dream Legal-PR team. I am waiting to see all of the evidence before I decide on the rape case. My verdict is already in on the guy that talked about skinning and murdering dancers, he's scum, normal people don't think like that. I am dismayed at the number of decent people who have jumped on the bandwagon of these miscreants (based on the neighbors interviews these boys are a walk on the wild side in general) and are making judgements without all the evidence coming out. I doubt the bandwagon would be as large if The Howard University Football team was accused under the same circumstances.

    Like many people out there, the second dancer thinks that they couldn't think of anything why the accuser would lie about something like that. Perhaps one needs to be a woman and a mother to understand this--the woman has had a criminal record, was found pass-out drunk in public. Her previous record also implicates that she is the type of person that becomes unnecessarily panic and makes bad decisions in front of the police presence. Wouldn't she make up some story to turn herself into a victim to avoid further police inquiry or charges, perhaps for fear of leaving any further records that may jeopardize her custody of her children? One needs to understand people's fear to find out what the motivations may be. It's just like the second dacner equivocated in the first 911 call because she does not want to be found out that she is a stripper? Oftentimes people's fears lead them to do many stupid things, such as attempting to run over a deputy sheriff. On the other hand, what reasons are there for the Duke players, and in particular, those innocent and even absent ones to lie? The season and the coach are already gone. Young kids may lie out of loyalty or fraternity, but 47 sets of parents from different backgrounds unanimously believe that it is in their children's best interests to withhold the truth and to support them in covering a felony up?Unlikely.

    Jade: I just don't agree. Your rhetoric - "rich and privileged" - is stacked against them and you're trying to evoke a class-type response. Using this logic, every time an accused black or Hispanic defendant is represented by high-profile NAACP or MALDEF attorneys, they too are "privileged". That's just not true. Like race-baiting, class-baiting brings nothing substantive to the debate. I've said it before but I'll say it again: not all college athletes are rich. If you consider them "privileged" because they attend a university with the prominence of Duke I honestly think are you confusing the meaning of the term. You have no way of knowing the economic circumstances of the players so drawing conclusions that they are all rich would be just as inappropriate as saying young, black, single-mothers lack credibility (as some have intimated). About the email: that was pretty scummy. I don't know anyone who would defend those kinds of statements - probably not even the player himself. But if you can't admit that was OBVIOULSY a joke (albeit a sick one) - as opposed to a actual call to kill and skin strippers - then you are disconnected with reality. I'm sure some of these guys are wild. I'm sure some are uncouth. But does that alone make them guilty of rape? No way, no how.

    TalkLeft asks a lot of questions about why didn't the alleged victim do this and that. It sounds pretty clear that TL has never been the victim of rape before. Believe it or not, people don't always confide in complete strangers or rush straight to the police. So here is a possible scenario that would account for the facts: The dancers go to the party, one is possibly drugged and then raped. She leaves the house and gets in the car with the other dancer who is a complete stranger to her. The other dancer doesn't known what is wrong with her, just notices she seems out of it. The other dancer calls the cops because she is upset about the racial slurs and whatever caused her to run out of the party. She doesn't report the rape because she doesn't know anything about it. She doesn't report that the alleged victim seems drugged because she doesn't know what to think about that (for all she knows the alleged victim voluntarily got high with the boys. And again, this is a complete stranger and you have to decide if you want to involve yourself in reporting a possible crime, especially if you are leading a double life as a stripper that you don't want your parents to know about). The victim is too upset and/or drugged to talk about it yet. Eventually they find themselves at Krogers. Why not at the police station? Maybe the victim still isn't together enough to go to the police. Oh, and I lived in that neighborhood and I had no idea there was a police station around there. And I doubt these girls were from that neighborhood, so it could just be they don't carry a map of where all the police stations are in town. TL is acting like the word of the defense attorney's is gospel or something. Could it just be that they are trying to spin things in the most favorable light for their clients? And for those who think no crime went down, why do you think those dancers went running out of there? I am still waiting for more details on the nails. No one wears press-ons anymore. I have never seen a black woman in Durham with anything but acryllics, which don't come off without some serious effort.

    "On the other hand, what reasons are there for the Duke players." Wow. You say as a woman and mother you can understand the dancer's mindset. Well, you clearly don't understand the mindset of many a frat guy. Loyalty is the number one virtue. That is what the whole pledging/hazing process is supposed to be about - creating a bond between these boys that is stronger than any other relationship they have. Sports teams can have a very similar mindset. I would not be at all surprised (though completely horrified) if these guys are covering for each other. Yeah, it is wrong to stereotype Duke students, but damn is hard not too, since so many of them live up to the stereotype. I think of all the top tier schools it has the highest percentage (I believe 60%) that are paying full tuition (and if you have a low or even medium income, Duke will help you out with aid, so that means 60% of these Duke students come from filthy rich families). I think most of the others have only about 30% not getting any financial aid. And just because these guys are athletes doesn't make me think they are poor kids there on an athletic scholarship. I mean, what high schools even have lacrosse team? My fairly well to do public school didn't. It is mostly private schools, and lacrosse is mostly a game played by rich kids. I would bet money that a very large percentage of the lacrosse team comes from families making well over $100K a year.

    I am not convinced that some people just watch too much TV. I mean some of the things I am reading on this thread make the Duke Case sound like some TV series.

    The grocery store was two miles from the party. The police station was a mile away. Because they knew where the closest grocery store was, but didn't know where the nearest police station was? Not mysterious in the slightest.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#19)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:34:13 AM EST
    Supa I'm right there with you. I predict the Law & Order version of this complete with racial strife by summer of next year. "In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories" Dung, Dung. Also for all those who say "why would anyone make such claims" I have two words for you. Tawana Brawley This case has sexual, ratial and class ramifications. I wouldn't be suprised if this was similar. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#20)
    by Lora on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    The lawyers are making a lot of assumptions about what the photos mean and what observers saw. Photos show only what is visible, not why. A photo cannot show that someone is impaired, only that she is lying down, has her eyes closed, etc. A photo cannot show that the audience is bored, only that they are not smiling or not clapping. What assurance is there that the photos were not tampered with? That could explain Nifong's reluctance to view these pictures. I would think you couldn't really tell much without having them examined by experts. An officer looking in a car can see someone with eyes closed, not moving, or moving slightly, but cannot say for certain whether the person is intoxicated without more evidence. I haven't seen any mention of the odor of alcohol or any other intoxicant being observed by the officer. I agree that if the dancer had just been raped and assaulted, she might not be responding in any "normal" fashion. She might appear impaired or passed out. She might not be able to walk or remove herself from the car. And another "why." If the accuser was not raped and assaulted, how do you explain the reports from the hospital "consistent with" not only rape, but assault and associated trauma as well? If she was raped afterwards, how and why was she still in the second dancer's car? If she was raped and grievously assaulted before the party, how could she have danced at all? And if her dancing wasn't up to snuff, why did the defense attorneys originally say the dancing was halted due to "offensive remarks," and only recently suggested she was impaired when she arrived and too impaired to dance? If the dancer's hip was dislocated, as has been implied by her father, she wouldn't have been able to walk much or dance. Surely a hip out of joint, and an attempt to put it back, could be corroborated by the hospital. The nature and extent of her injuries sound serious. I would think the evidence from the hospital would be key, and so far strongly suggests a crime was committed.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:38:53 AM EST
    Chase, First of all, there is only one reason that any of us bring up the backgrounds of these LaCrosse players, and it doesn't have anything to do with their guilt or innocence, but rather with the judicial system. If you really believe that this case would be handled the same way were the demographic positioning of accuser/accused reversed, then you are, for lack of a better word, delusional. Justice in this country is not color blind. It has two favorite colors. White comes in second place. Green takes the title by a long New England mile. As for your suggestion that the Duke LaCrosse team spans the economic gamut, pleeeeeze. This is not the GOP convention, no need to throw up a "Land of Opportunity" banner and paint a surreal lie for us here. LaCrosse players, first of all, are not just like basketball and football players who happen to play LaCrosse. It is a wealth-laden sport. Heck, as a whole Duke doesn't even represent a an economic gamut--it's an elite private school along the order of a Harvard or a Columbia. Sure, there are some working class kids there. There is a multitude of upper crust that throws the curve to an extreme position.

    The Herald Sun
    Jason Alexander Bissey, a neighbor to the house where the woman allegedly was raped, provided a written statement to defense attorneys that they shared with The Herald-Sun over the weekend.
    Bissey said he saw the "skimpily dressed" accuser leave the house between 12:20 and 12:30 a.m., but then heard her say she was going back inside to retrieve a missing shoe.
    According to defense lawyers, Bissey's observation had to be after the time the woman allegedly was raped in the house, since she never actually re-entered it.
    But if she had been raped and sodomized for 30 minutes, as she claimed, would she really have been so worried about a lost shoe that she would dare to face her attackers again, attorneys Ekstrand, Thomas and others are asking.
    newsweek.com April 24, 2006
    The partygoers get nervous about what the women are up to and start slipping money under the door asking them to leave, says Bill Thomas, a lawyer who represents one of the captains. The women go out to the second stripper's car at about 12:20, but the accuser has left her purse behind; she goes back inside to get it, according to Ekstrand.
    Later in the same article:
    She was never alone in the house for more than about 10 minutes, according to their timeline.
    That ten minutes is the same time she says she was attacked for about 30 minutes and jibes with the time frame Jason Bisssey saw her go back inside. Has ten minutes ever felt like 30 minutes to anyone? The jurors might understand her overestimating how long she was being assaulted.

    1:00 pm EST Fox news is reporting the defense attorneys said the accuser has identified two of her attackers to a 100% certainty and a third attacker with a 90% certainty.

    1:05 pm EST Rita Cosby just reported that the second dancer told her that she is not surprised the accuser did not tell her she was raped, she couldn't even tell her her name and that the accuser appeared to be on something other than alcohol.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#26)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:23:02 AM EST
    Questions: How likely is it that the alleged victim would have been tested for alcohol and/or date rape drugs in connection with, or independently of, her rape kit exam at the emergency room. Can these tests be done now if blood samples were preserved? What are the effects of the date rape drug and how fast acting is it? Could there be memory loss or memory distortion, and if so could there be memory recovery?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#28)
    by azbballfan on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    "Maybe I have missed something, but assuming the above refers to the lax players, but what evidence has been presented to establish them as rich or privileged?" Chase, I will respect efforts to hide the names of the lacrosse players, but if you look at a popular sports blog, you can find a list of them and the high schools they attended. Most of the high schools have "prepatory" and "acadamy" in their names. It is not a stretch to assume the boys are privileged.

    Interesting admission by the defense attorneys: [link and text deleted, not in html format] Please don't quote whole sections. Post a link in html format with a line or two, if you must.

    Perhaps I do not understand the mindset of many a frat guy, but I may understand that if someone in my son's team commits a felony, our best interest will not be corroborating the story with those who have done it. Meanwhile, if I would strip to support my children, I would lie as well for not having them taken away from me on charges of drug account, etc. What I am saying is just that, what if, there may be motivations for the accuser to come up with a story to turn herself into a victim? Of course we all know that Duke players have a lot to lose for being caught, but we can't just assume that this woman does not have motivation to lie, because in most cases women do not lie about such things. Let's just presume that both sides have motivations to lie, and see what may come out. In the meantime, I haven't seen these questions answered in the media coverage-- (1) How did she get to the Duke Lacrosse Party? Apparently not in the second dancer's car. What did she do before the party? (2) Who took her to the hospital? One of the audience asked a question, why was she taken to the Duke Hospital, not other hospitals in the area? (3) How come the amount of money ($400) that she said on the police record that the Duke players robbed of her is in accordance with the amount of what she was supposed to be paid for the two-hour performance? If they did rob her of $400 from her purse or make-up bag, why would she carry so much money to a performance? Also, how did she get so much money in her purse before the Duke party? Did she just get those money from previous performances or other types of services? (4) The defense lawyers said that she was seen in one of the photos making calls from her cellphone, who was she talking to, and on what subject matter? Perhaps her cell phone record should be obtained to see if it sheds lights on the reconstruction of the timeline.

    deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:51:48 AM EST
    Some on this site seem far to eager to prove that these kids are rich white kids. To what end? Are we to assume that if they were anything else you'd be defending their right to a speedy trial? It seems odd that some people will take the word of a prositute over those of the defendents when more times then not they would ardently defend most defendents when they are in the cross hairs of a zelous prosecture. We have a very bad prosecuter proceeding in a case that he has probably already ruined for pure political purposes. Normaly this would scream bad for the bloggers of TL (at least TL is consistent). For those claiming white privlage accept the fact that the only reason this case will ever go to trial is becuase the accuser is black and the lacrosse players are "rich white kids".

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#30)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:03:02 AM EST
    For those claiming white privlage accept the fact that the only reason this case will ever go to trial is becuase the accuser is black and the lacrosse players are "rich white kids".
    Ah yes the resentments of the politically conservative white male over the preferences given to those undeserving and under-qualified black folks. Shades of Rush Limbaugh.

    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion April 17, 2006 06:52 AM
    That was dang funny, using dang.
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 April 17, 2006 07:30 AM
    I went to Duke, played lacrosse and did not receive a scholarship. I also graduated with more than 60k in student loans not to mention this was over 10 years ago. Want to hear a big number talk to a law or medical student at any school. Wake up to the realities of the cost of education for everyone!! How they pay is irrelevant.
    Posted by Lora April 17, 2006 10:38 AM An officer looking in a car can see someone with eyes closed, not moving, or moving slightly, but cannot say for certain whether the person is intoxicated without more evidence. I haven't seen any mention of the odor of alcohol or any other intoxicant being observed by the officer.
    My guess is that the officer tried to roust her. They evidently di some thing to get her in the back of the police car. And, you are presumming that someone only drinks alcohol. Alcohol is definitely not the only choice of the yonger generations as much as it has been in the past. Furthermore, weed has become more and more potent. She could have smoked something (did you see Training Day?)or popped something before entering for a false sense of courage to dance or she could have been dosed. Who know? Not me and not you, just her. "Lacrossitudes"....Kind of like Uof Minnesota (public school) has "Puck F*cks"? before even going into sports, how about every "groupie" for every rock band that has ever existed? It must be tiring and sad when people let their insecuritites get the best of them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#33)
    by azbballfan on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:29:45 AM EST
    The only reason race is an issue is because racial epithets provide evidence of malice. The fact that they are rich, come from priveleged households, and went to expensive private high schools only begs to question the fault of their social system to instill a bit of morality and common sense. At worst, some wealthy kids on scholarship for representing a university which likes to consider itself elite drugged and violently raped a woman. At best, some wealthy kids on scholarship for representing a university which likes to consider itself elite were stupid enough to allow a dispute over a couple hundred bucks spin wayyy out of control. The difference in class and race have nothing to do with whether or not the DA should press charges.

    mmyy - agreed. Both sides have incentive to lie. Both scenarios are a possibility. Now let me try to answer the list of questions you posted: 1. I believe I heard she came in her own car and that that was still there in the morning. 2. Duke Hospital is not a hospital for the University - it is the hospital associated with the med school there. It was the nearest hospital and the hospital anyone would have been taken to if something happened to them in that neighborhood (I know, I lived in that neighborhood). I don't know who took her there. 3. From what I understand, she was paid, and then whatever happened that went wrong, they tried to take the money back. So what she was robbed of was her fee for stripping. Slado - is there a reason why you feel the word of a "prostitute" is less valid than the word of a Duke lacrosse player? Is that just class bias? My husband's experience teaching at Duke was that those "nice kids from good families" lied more than anyone he had ever known. They definitely saw themselves as above the rules. 3

    I'm not expecting any indictments tomorrow. I don't see how this case can be presented to the grand jury in a single day, unless it's a complete railroad job. The grand jury doesn't meet again for two weeks.
    TL, This could be Nifong's method to get out of a mess. If Nifong wants the grand jury to return an indictment, it should not be too hard. However, it is convenient for him, since grand jury proceedings are secret, if the grand jury returns a no bill. He can then save face by stating that the grand jury did not feel the evidence presented supported an indictment. Just a thought...

    That ten minutes is the same time she says she was attacked for about 30 minutes and jibes with the time frame Jason Bisssey saw her go back inside.
    She never made it back inside in the house. They locked her out of the house. So how could she be alone inside the house alone? Lastly it is her story that said both her and the 2nd stripper went back inside the house together, and then they were separated. How do you explain that?

    It seems to me from reading many of the comments above and on previous threads, that some here passionately believe - perhaps even passionately hope - that she was raped. Of all the possible scenerios of what went down that night, rape is by far the most horrible. For everybody involved. Why do some here (seem to) want the girl to have been raped?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#38)
    by azbballfan on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 12:12:08 PM EST
    Something to point out about the DA. He isn't some sensationalist who came into office by politics. He is a 26 year career prosecutor who inherited the job last year when his boss was appointed as a judge. He has worked in the Durham prosectors office his entire career. This is the first time he's running for office. He's running against a high profile ex basketball coach. Prior to this case, his run for office was considered a slam dunk. He's always had the endorsements of the local community groups.

    Sarcastic, that is really uncalled for. No one wants someone to have been raped. What you seem to be saying is that our society would be a lot better off if we thought all people who claim to be rape victims are liars, because then we could all believe rape never happens. We don't want her to be raped, but a lot of fear she has been, and want to be sure justice is done.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#40)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 01:26:39 PM EST
    J.B. I was only throwing "names" around to make a point. Somehow being rich and white is as bad as being called a prostitue. Neither can be believed more then the other. This is a case of he said she said until some more facts come out. So far all the facts point towards the he's but this is a long way from over. But that hasn't stopped some from either hoping or assuming that a rape occured becuause that will give them yet another target for theie biases against rich white men. Frankly we rich white men have had enough of this discrimination.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#41)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 01:30:00 PM EST
    Point taken azbba. but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's backed himself into a corner in this case. Would a lawyer say one way or the other how this has been handled...strictly professionaly...I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that he has forced himself to take this to trial by going public and making promises to the public...for whatever reason.

    J.B., now that is uncalled for, I "seemed" to say nothing of the sort. It certainly "seems" that some here passionately believe that she was raped, have invested many hours in analyzing time-lines and statements, etc., to support their belief, and I'll bet some of those same people will experience feelings of disappointment instead of the appropriate joy or thanks or relief if/when it is proven that she was not. Although I will admit that now I can't find the comment or two on this thread that really pushed me to ask the question, maybe they've been deleted by TL...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 01:52:55 PM EST
    Frankly we rich white men have had enough of this discrimination.
    Yeah! and, Dammit, we're not going to take it anymore. Have Pity on all us rich white men, you people. We can't even make it in this world no more.
    Why do some here (seem to) want the girl to have been raped?
    I wouldn't put this up there with one of your most intelligent statements you've made, SUO. Maybe right up there with the one how you'd rather fight a stripper than a college Lacrosse player because there would be less chance of injury.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#45)
    by Lora on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 01:59:14 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, I specifically said "odor of alcohol or any other intoxicant being observed." Clearly I did not presume it was alcohol. The odor of alcohol is one of the most noticeable, which is why I mentioned it specifically, that's all. You're right, neither you nor I know what, if anything, she inhaled or consumed. Neither did the police officer who observed her, and absolutely no way can the photos tell us. That was my point. suo, As I have been one of the ones most strongly expressing that I believe the dancer's story, I will answer your post that asks why some of us seem to want the girl to have been raped. Only someone who would want to immorally use another human being to further a point of view or a cause would ever want this woman to have been raped. That is utterly repugnant to me and, I would hope and assume, utterly repugnant to all of the other posters here, whatever their opinions of the veracity of the charges. As TL herself said, I truly hope she wasn't raped. If she is shown to have lied, or admits it, I will be angry with her, very sympathetic to the accused, and I'll hope that somehow, something could be done to compensate them for being dragged through this painful, damaging farce. I do not passionately believe anything about the case. I just happen to believe that, taking all the information we have, most of which is unverified and in contention, that her story is the one that fits best. The other scenarios presented have more flaws and are more unlikely in my opinion. If she was brutally hurt, I hope she heals quickly, and I hope whoever did it is swiftly brought to justice.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#47)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:16:37 PM EST
    And for those who think no crime went down, why do you think those dancers went running out of there?
    Actually what I wonder about is why did every last one of those team members leave that house within minutes (if you believe the timeline) of the dancers leaving, even the three who lived there? Where did they all go?

    Lora, thanks for your reponse, you were not one of those who made the comments that prompted me to ask the question. Hopefully some others will read your reponse and realize they might should take a step back. Peaches, not to quibble, but you quoted a question, not a statement, and my other comment was not about college Lacrosse players. OK, they are quibbles, to be sure, but if you're going to try to slam someone, you might want to get your ducks in a row first...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#46)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:32:25 PM EST
    Some background info on the alleged victim from the news and observer: link

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#42)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:40:27 PM EST
    deleted for language

    deleted

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:41:43 PM EST
    OK, they are quibbles, to be sure, but if you're going to try to slam someone, you might want to get your ducks in a row first...
    All Right, Sarc. I'll keep that in mind. But, since we aren't quibbling, I won't quote the meaning of Statement All of which would inform you that there is nothing that prevents a question from falling under the heading of a statement or an assertion. You aren't earning many IQ points today Sarc. That's not a slam, but an observation. Sometimes you do say something relevant on here, unlike..say.. Chase or ppj, but today... you must not have gotten much rest last night.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#23)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:43:37 PM EST
    Chase,
    I just don't agree. Your rhetoric - "rich and privileged" - is stacked against them and you're trying to evoke a class-type response.
    [deleted] I'll say it again. We are all biased on this case based on our gender, race, class and the resulting political philosophy. The white male political conservatives favor the lacrosse team, the lefties like myself are more sympathetic to the alleged victim.

    From your link:
    Main Entry: stateĀ·ment Pronunciation: 'stAt-m&nt Function: noun 1 : something stated : as a : a single declaration or remark : ASSERTION b : a report of facts or opinions 2 : the act or process of stating or presenting orally or on paper
    Uh, I think you're flailing wildly there Peaches. But, speaking of relevance, none of your comments on this thread are even about the topic of the thread. Speaking of relevance. Flail about wildly some more if you like, I'm done with your "intelligence."

    SUO, You wrote: "Of all the possible scenerios of what went down that night, rape is by far the most horrible. For everybody involved. Why do some here (seem to) want the girl to have been raped?" Well, I really think the worst thing that could happen (if we keep a narrow-minded logic table) would be for the victim to be raped twice. That's the common experience of many rape victims. If our society doesn't have the will or the intellectual prowess to keep Bill Thomas honest, we'll just get what he's paid for. Right or wrong.

    Chew2, While I understand your question, I don't think it's uncommon for a college party to break up when the entertainment leaves. I live in a college town. Many parties break up at 1am. Many students go home at 1am cause they usually have class 9-10a in the morning.

    Supamike, You wrote:
    She never made it back inside in the house. They locked her out of the house. So how could she be alone inside the house alone?
    Ekstrand (lawyer for 35 or so players), the search warrant and Bissey are the current sources for the claim that the dancer went back into the house. I'm not sure I know of any source (except yourself) who claims she never went back into the house upon leaving the first time. You wrote:
    it is her story that said both her and the 2nd stripper went back inside the house together, and then they were separated. How do you explain that?
    That's something the second dancer may have something to say about. I've heard nothing that contradicts it as yet. It will also be interesting to see whether the digital photos are numbered, as digital photos usually are, and whether any Nixonian gaps appear in the numbering of the photos between 12:04 and 12:31. Right now that's top secret information, protected by a wall of lawyers. Is the stuff in the search warrant to be safely regarded as "her story" or did the police gather the information therein from more than one source?

    from Newsweek,
    "Then both women lock themselves in the bathroom, Ekstrand details. The partygoers get nervous about what the women are up to and start slipping money under the door asking them to leave, says Bill Thomas, a lawyer who represents one of the captains."
    I'm curious what "slipping money under the door" is all about. Are they worried that the women might be calling the police on a cell phone? Are they trying to PAY the women to leave? This all is hard to reconcile with the complaints Bissey thought he heard from people wanting their money back.

    Well stop this race stuff i am a black women and the whole race does not need guilt ridden white liberals defending "us" this hooker was not forced to sell her body, she could have gotten a decent job. i feel no sympathy for her. i feel sorry for the young boys who were convicted by the feminists and had their pictures posted sayying with writing saying "be a man and come forward" whatr if they are actually innocent and the striper and felon is lying.

    Well stop this race stuff i am a black women and the whole race does not need guilt ridden white liberals defending "us" this hooker was not forced to sell her body, she could have gotten a decent job. i feel no sympathy for her. i feel sorry for the young boys who were convicted by the feminists and had their pictures posted sayying with writing saying "be a man and come forward" whatr if they are actually innocent and the striper and felon is lying.
    So I am guessing that you are not so happy about Jesse Jackson's UNSSF? ya know? the United Negro Strippah' Scholarship Fund?

    That Duke Schooling is real good. They teach you how to rape without leaving any DNA evidence any where on the body of the victim. No hair, no dandruff, NADA. That is very skillful. The stripper went to a very good school too. After a fight in the bathroom none of the woman's DNA can be found anywhere in the bathroom. She didn't even rub against the wall accidently in the fight. And she was intoxicated at the time too. Damn she is good. Some one ought to investigate until they find the teachers. And keep an eye on them so that no more undetectable crimes are comitted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Second Dancer Speaks Out, Admit (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 08:15:22 AM EST
    Not so fast Sarc, I have said nothing of relevance in this thread because there is nothing new to add that has not already been said. This thread is only interesting for some of the idiotic statements that are posted due to the passion of the beliefs of the posters on both sides of the issue. You seem to want to make comments to provoke even more of these statements. Lets go back to your full post.
    It seems to me from reading many of the comments above and on previous threads, that some here passionately believe - perhaps even passionately hope - that she was raped. Of all the possible scenerios of what went down that night, rape is by far the most horrible. For everybody involved. Why do some here (seem to) want the girl to have been raped?
    JB and Lora responded quite well to this statement or assertion of yours that some posters -- wof whi ch you are refering to those on the side of the stripper-- want her to have been raped. This is uncalled for as JB accurately pointed out. THen it was you that was flailing.
    I'll bet some of those same people will experience feelings of disappointment instead of the appropriate joy or thanks or relief if/when it is proven that she was not.
    And then you add this for support.
    Although I will admit that now I can't find the comment or two on this thread that really pushed me to ask the question, maybe they've been deleted by TL...
    Yeah right. Come off it Sarc. I didn't want to slam you. I just wanted to let you know that your statement was absurd and it should have been followed by an apology not an excuse and flailing about like your above response to JB. Then you deflect this critism by getting into a quibble over what qualifies as a statement--which realy is irrelevant--although you are wrong in your facts concerning grammar in this case.