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Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actions

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:36:15 PM EST
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The Durham City Manager today defended the early actions of the Durham police.

A Duke University committee's report blames Durham police for sending mixed messages in the early hours of the lacrosse rape investigation, but Durham's city manager is firing back. The report says Duke officials did not take the case seriously because Durham police officers said it would blow over.

"I'd like to see where that source of information came from," said Durham City Manager Patrick Baker. He admits the first two or three hours after the rape was reported were confusing as to whether the alleged victim was intoxicated or mentally ill. But Baker tells Eyewitness News that once a rape kit was in hand, there was no confusion. "We had launched a full-scale sexual assault investigation, by 4 or 5 that morning," he said.

Check out this one page Duke University Police report (pdf) dated March 14 released today. It states the accuser was picked up at Krogers "and she was claiming" she had been raped by 20 men. The report says the accuser had changed her story several times and the Durham police did not expect more than misdemeanor assault charges to be filed in the case.

The report was signed by Christopher Day and approved by his supervisor, J.O. Best. The time Duke Police were contacted is listed as 3:00 a.m.

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    Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actions | 159 comments (159 topical)
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#1)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:58:48 PM EST
    Gee, this seems to confirm what I've been speculating.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:01:46 PM EST
    Nifong must have some medical evidence that convinces him without a doubt that she was raped.
    I agree again, Teresa. From what evidence we've been shown (which is to say, very little) it's not hard for me to believe that the AV had "consistent with rape" injuries, but it is becoming harder and harder for me to believe that they were inflicted by the Duke guys.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#3)
    by wumhenry on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:05:13 PM EST
    Nifong must have some medical evidence that convinces him without a doubt that she was raped. If not, he must be crazy. He hasn't had a reputation in the past for being difficult and he is being very difficult and stubborn in this case. I know I can be naive but surely he has something.
    To conclude merely from the fact that he hasn't backed down that he must have something is, indeed, naive. The inference wouldn't be naive if there were no likely ulterior motive for him to pursue the case -- but there IS a likely ulterior motive, and it's a very obvious one. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -R.W. Emerson

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    The SANE exam - we only know a little about the exam, though the District Attorney characterized its findings as being "consistent with rape." I presume the nurse performed the exam in a professional manner, and that a toxicology report exists - I presume this is the information the DA is holding back. Once again, this piece of the puzzle is consistent with a rape occurring, but once again, it's not obvious either. One problem is that the defense claims to have photos which show bruises while the AV was dancing and that she subsequently fell while leaving the house. I suspect that the exam can distinguish those types of injuries from rape - but they may have influenced the nurse's opinion. A second problem is that the AV's occupation, would lend some doubt as to whether the injuries were caused during the "party," or during some previous (or subsequent) encounter. Interestingly, the defense has not claimed consensual sex. A third problem is that absence of DNA evidence (at least, per the State Lab with regard to semen and other bodily fluids). One would think that this would be situation where DNA would almost have to be present...obviously, the DA initially thought so, too. While the condom explanation may be a partial explanation, it would still seem that hair, sweat, etc. would be available. Of course, there is then the broom explanation, but even this would probably leave some debris....and if the AV did not mention it during the report, it would be a little hard to accept. While one might argue that the AV was not coherent enough to remember, that explanation eliminates her ability to ID the alleged assailants. Thus, not obtaining DNA is a problem. A fourth problem is the finger nails. If the nurse or forensics expert scraped her nails, s/he is bound to have noticed if the AVs nails were recently repainted. The reason that this could be important is that it affects the time-line of events and may make it impossible for Seligman to have participated in the alleged rape. And, if her ID is wrong in one case, the jury will be less inclined to believe her other IDs and thus, require even more DNA evidence. Thus, if I were a juror, I would be frustrated at this point, there may be a rape, but for a just conviction to occur, it has to be tied to a specific person. Next step....the police report

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:09:48 PM EST
    kalidoggie
    Lastly, by the way, for those of you who instantly dismissed the lacrosse players as having no credibility and so quickly accepted Nifong's characterization of them as "hooligans":
    I don't buy for a second that good grades and community service mean you don't get REALLY drunk and occasionally out of control. That's a big part of what college is all about. But other than the rape allegation and possibly the racial slurs, the "hooligan behavior" they've attributes to these guys all strikes me as pretty normal.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#6)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:10:16 PM EST
    wum, is his motive to destroy himself?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:13:08 PM EST
    Teresa, are you sure there is no way for him to ultimately back out w/o "destroying himself."

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#8)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:16:19 PM EST
    From the first link above: "He admits the first two or three hours after the rape was reported were confusing as to whether the alleged victim was intoxicated or mentally ill. But Baker tells Eyewitness News that once a rape kit was in hand, there was no confusion." I believe the City Manager here means that there was no question that a rape had occurred, not that she was either intoxicated or mentally ill. I'll go further and say that unfortunately a goodly percentage of rapes are committed on women who are intoxicated and/or mentally ill. And as I said, what evidence the rape kit (when it is entered at trial or when chew2 gives it up) and the DNA reveals will go towards proving if there was a rape and who raped the AV. Is there anyone here who still believes that the AV is a reliable source of information? If so, what has she said that you believe?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#9)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:17:48 PM EST
    Pat posted:
    For example, one would have to question why she was not taken to the hospital or police office directly - perhaps because she couldn't communicate with Kim, or Kim did not think she had been raped, or Kim didn't want to get involved. I'm not trying to make a judgment, per se, ...I think that if I were a juror, I would not give it the weight that I would if someone simply was attacked in their sleep and they immediately called 911 for help. I would need to see something more substantive.
    I think if the accuser had been able to give Kim her address, this, (whatever it is - a rape or false report)would never have been reported.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:19:10 PM EST
    orinco, to be clear, he's only won the dem primary, he's still got to win the general election early next year...although the election, coincidentally, will take place prior his estimation of when this thing'll go to trial...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:19:25 PM EST
    Teresa
    wum, is his motive to destroy himself?
    In fairness, Nifong has invested a lot in this case. If I had gone on national TV a hundred times saying how convinced I was that there was a crime and repeatedly assured my consitutency that I would prosecute it, I'd have a motive not to admit to the world that I jumped the gun. Right or wrong, if he drops the case both sides are going to lash out at him hard. It would be a VERY tough situtation to be in.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#12)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:22:41 PM EST
    Good point suo. I guess he could have accepted the alibi evidence and said he believes there was a rape but he can't prove who did it. wum, I know that prosecutors can pursue cases for the wrong reasons. A small town prosecutor went after my younger brother for drug pushing charges. The case was thrown out of court and the judge was really, and publicly, angry with the prosecutor. I am convinced he did it because my other brother was a prominent defense attorney in this same town. I knew his motive, but I can't figure Nifong's. He would have won the election easier if he'd never started this case. A USA Today reporter said many of the voters he interviewed that day voted against Nifong because of his public stance on this case.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:24:47 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one:
    Teresa, are you sure there is no way for him to ultimately back out w/o "destroying himself."
    He could delay trial till the spring and hope the AV backs out on her own. Even if she doesn't and he has to drop the case, by that time we will have found something else to obsess over and it wouldn't be such a big deal.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#14)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:26:19 PM EST
    Pat, I have no arguments with what you've been posting. I pretty much hold with what you've said. And I think the observation about the nails is a fascinating one. Did the SANE nurse notice the AV's nails having been repainted? If the AV had repainted her fingernails after her fake nails came off, as some of the attendees and their attorneys have said, you would have to figure that time spent at the Buchanan house as time she was not being raped. +++ wumhenry, if I sat on a jury and only knew what we know in public I would have to vote to acquit. It could very well be that Nifong rode this case to victory and that after the next round of DNA tests he'll decide to throw in the towel, or may let the case limp along until it can quietly die months from now. Other the other hand there seem to be enough people in the know who believe the rape test proves a rape occurred. I would guess we won't know for sure until a trial or dismissal. +++ Orinoco, Thank you for your kind words.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:29:12 PM EST
    Teresa, re: Nifong's motivation. Someone once said something along the lines of "don't atribute to malfeasance what could better be explained by stupidity." now, I don't think Nifong is stupid, generally, but even the smartest of us do stupid things at times. Orincoco, I agree with you, just pointing out that he's not, in fact, quite elected yet.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#16)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:33:24 PM EST
    When Nifong went on his publicity offensive between march and april he had no idea the case would blow up in his face so quickly and so apparently.
    The case blew up on him on April 11. All of the bad news for him was very public before the election. You confuse me. (I thought you left? :) )

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#17)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:38:50 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one, Thank you for your kind words. There, am I caught up?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:42:24 PM EST
    Bob, you are too funny, I was just getting ready to post "Bob, what am I, chopped liver?"

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#19)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:45:21 PM EST
    More seriously I can't desert Bob alone in the foxhole.
    lol. Bob mostly believes she was raped but keeps trying to talk himself out of it. Right Bob? :) I think she could have been and I'm trying to figure out how. I think Bob and I both agree this won't make it to court and if it does there won't be any convictions.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#20)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:46:55 PM EST
    Orinoco, I think you may be right about true believers who cling to the AV's story. In fact, a rape may have occurred, it may have been three guys in the bathroom, and it may have been Seligmann and Finnerty participating. But I find the AV to be entirely unreliable. There had better be other corroborating evidence. I also find it interesting that none of the defenders of her version of events wants to tackle her state of consciousness immediately prior to her claiming that she was raped. So I'll ask again: chew2, IMHO, Peaches. Do any of you still find the alleged victim to be reliable, and if so, as to what? Or let's say you were arguing for argument's sake. Does anyone here still find the AV's version of events credible?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#21)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:53:50 PM EST
    Teresa, My belief that a rape may have occurred (I've been thinking 55-45 towards a rape having occurred) hangs on what is in the rape kit and what other evidence (DNA, witnesses, photos) Nifong has. If the second round of DNA comes back without any smoking gun, I'm down to 50-50 since the rape examination has to rely on the unreliable alleged victim's story. If the case involves the AV's credibility versus the defendants, I am very dubious. Now, excuse me, I'm going off to wrestle with myself.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:59:51 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica
    I also find it interesting that none of the defenders of her version of events wants to tackle her state of consciousness immediately prior to her claiming that she was raped.
    I can understand why. Assuming you believe the woman was intentioanlly drugged and attacked, it's not a comfortable admission to say that the drug compromises her credibility to the extent that she should only get justice if her version of events is supported by strong DNA evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt is how our justice system protects the innocent, but it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth when it lets the guilty go free.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#23)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:04:18 PM EST
    The report was signed by Christopher Day and approved by his supervisor, J.O. Best. The time Duke Police were contacted is listed as 3:00 a.m.
    TL, is everybody aware that Day and Best are Duke police officers? The way you wrote this seems to assume everybody already knows who these cats are...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:06:31 PM EST
    The police report - part 3. According to the AV's complaint, three men sexually assaulted her for a period of 30 minutes. She also claimed that she left her make-up bag, money, cell phone, and false finger nails in the bathroom. She also claims that she was beaten, strangled, etc. The complaint is pretty straight-forward - but, once again, there are some problems. First, if she had her cell phone with her, why not call 911 when the men left. One can argue that she was too traumatized to do this - but, it is somewhat troubling. Second, there is no mention of condoms or brooms - the omission of a statement about condoms could be explained, but certainly not the broom. Once again, one would expect there to be some DNA from such a struggle - especially because oral sex is alleged - but, apparently, none appears (though perhaps there is some under her fingernails - the DNA results from the private lab are still pending.) Third, the fact that she had her make-up bag out suggests that she was doing her nails. This is what the defense has argued (I believe). It also suggests that nail polish should be found on the bathroom floor or walls and on the AV herself if a struggle occurred. I don't remember any discussion about this in any of the reports, so far. Fourth, it seems strange that no one can support her testimony. While I'm sure there is peer pressure on the members of the team, it's hard to believe that four people could occupy one of two bathrooms without someone noticing that the door was locked and that no one heard the AV cry-out. I realize she may have been choked, but it's still a little hard to think that 40 guys drinking beer for many hours would not be using the bathrooms frequently....especially if Kim was in the other bathroom. The whole part of the time-line that involves Kim and the AV coming back into the house really seems murky to me. Fifth, the recent report by the Duke Police that the Durham police didn't take her complaint seriously, and that her complaint kept changing, is obviously a problem. I realize that there can be communication difficulties, especially if one has been traumatized by rape, but it can't help the prosecution that the initial officers didn't believe her. Sixth, while it may not be admissible as evidence, her prior rape charge and history of mental illness is not helpful to the prosecution. Please, don't flame me about mental illness - I have family members who have suffered for years with depression - if it is allowed as evidence, it will affect the jury. Thus, at this point, if I were on the jury, I would still be looking for something definitive. It's possible, perhaps probably that rape occurred, but who did it? Next up - the line-up.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#25)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:12:05 PM EST
    hues, That is the problem. It's clear that the woman was intoxicated, whether from a drugged drink, something she took on her own, or both. She was acting irrationally enough at the hospital that some observing police considered that she may have been mentally ill. And she gave out varying versions of what had happened to her. But she was intoxicated. Anyone who wants to honestly weigh the alleged victim's version of events has to take that into consideration. It would be sad that rapists go free because the AV was drugged and wasn't able to give a coherent accounting, but sadder if an innocent person were convicted on false testimony.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    She was acting irrationally enough at the hospital that some observing police considered that she may have been mentally ill.
    I thought they took her straight from the Krogers to the psych ward? I wonder if, in reponse to her actions, they asked her if she had any history of mental illness, or something, and she said yes, and that's why they took her to the psych ward...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:24:23 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica: I wrote this for you earlier, but now seems the time to send it. Please try to stay focussed on what you do best -- your thoughtful, methodical analysis. I enjoy your analysis, and agree with a lot of your points. But you end up taking the bait when somebody throws a hook at you and then you end up agonizing at length trying to "reason" with them. You're going to end up with a migraine. I think most of the people who have been following this post appreciate the serious effort you have put into your analysis. Some of them won't agree, some will clarify what they see as errors, and some of them will even get contrary about it. Just let it go; the rest of us are still with you. You're doing a good job. Just don't take the bait. Spit out the hook and stay focussed on what you do best.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#28)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:28:40 PM EST
    Orinoco, I've asked about a tox report a number of times and although many presume it exists, I haven't seen any evidence. This may be a clue: It seems clear from her behavior that the AV was extremely intoxicated and disoriented and at times contradicting herself. At her presentation at the hospital, it would be incumbent on medical personnel to take a blood and urine test to see if she in fact had been drugged. There is no charge in the indictments that the AV had been drugged. That suggests (although it isn't probative) that either a test wasn't taken or the results weren't consistent with her being drugged. That suggests two possibilities: the AV refused to take a test or the results either showed only alcohol, showed a drug that must have been self-administered, or showed nothing. Any of those things would benefit the defense. Her refusal to take a test would help the defense by suggesting that the AV was trying to cover up her intoxication. If she were only drunk, it would suggest that she had been drinking prior to arrival and would diminish her credibility as to events at the Buchanan house. If it showed that she were high on something she self-administered, it would also diminish her credibility. If it showed nothing, it would suggest that her erratic behavior was due to her own mental processes. None of these would be good in a case where her word was necessary to prove the case.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#29)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:28:51 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, Overall, I agree with your post about the Lacrosse team members (from the other thread), but then there's those damn lying statistics .... Kalidoggie posted:
    there were 1021 citations of Duke students by Durham police in the last 2 1/2 years, only 15 of those were lacrosse players.
    Orinoco responded:
    There are 47 men on the Lax team. Duke has 6000+ students and presumably 3000+ male students. If this accurate, the lax team actually has disproportionately fewer citations than the general population.
    dukenews.duke.edu
    By all measures that we considered, the disciplinary record of the lacrosse team was noticeably worse that the records of all other athletic teams. A greater percentage of the lacrosse players had disciplinary records than the percentage on all but one other team. A larger percentage of the lacrosse team have been involved in alcohol-related incidents than the percentage of players on all other teams. However, the nature of the incidents in which the lacrosse players were involved did not differ from the nature of incidents in which other athletes were involved.
    Finally, the Office of Judicial Affairs published an "Off-campus Summary" of incidents in the Fall of 2005. The Office also broke out those data to identify cases involving lacrosse players. The breakout shows the following:
    * 0.75 % (47/6244) Duke undergraduate students were lacrosse players in the Fall of 2005. * 4% of the students listed in the chart were LAX players (8/201) * 4% of the adjudicated students were LAX players (8/188) * 4% of the administrative resolution cases were LAX players (8/187) * 4% of total charges-responsible were LAX players (5/126) * 2% of total alcohol policy cases were LAX players (2/187) * 2% of underage possession cases were LAX players (2/92) * 25% of the disorderly conduct cases were LAX players (1/4) * 40% of the Other cases were Lax players (2/5) * 50% of the noise ordinance cases were LAX players (1/2) * 33% of the open container cases were LAX players (1//3) *4% of sanctions involved LAX players (6/138) * 5% of warnings involved LAX players (5/106) * 6% of written assignments involved LAX players (1/17) * 5% of the Total charges-not responsible were LAX players * 5% of cases involving alcohol policy were LAX players (4/75) * 2% of alcohol-underage cases were LAX players (4/75) * 21% of alcohol-unsafe behavior were LAX players (3/14)


    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:29:04 PM EST
    The line-up - Part 4 Based on what I have read about the line-up, the AV positively identified two people, and was 90 percent sure about the third. Evidently there is some discussion of a mustache, or the lack of one for this person. Also, interesting, the 90% ID is for the first attacker. First, in my view, the DA made a serious error in the line-up (perhaps intentionally - since he wanted to indict someone because if he lost to Freda Black, she would have "asked" him to resign - just as he did to her). As I understand it, the guidelines for line-ups suggest five "fillers" that resemble the suspect. And, since there were about 40 suspects at that time, there should have been something like 240 pictures to choose from. Further, an independent person, with no knowledge of the suspects, is supposed to run the line-up and the AV is supposed to be told that the assailant(s) may or may not be in the line-up. Thus, it's possible that the IDs may be thrown out - certainly if the trial judge allows it, it will be the subject of an appeal. Second, the line-up occurred after a substantial period of time after the incident. I'm sure that are many posts that have discussed the problems with witness ID, especially over time and across gender and race. Third, the explanations about the AVs behavior and state of mind immediately after the alleged rape, now make it more difficult to support a good ID. Thus, if one believes a rape occurred, it still may be difficult to identify the true assailant(s) and obtain a conviction. Fourth, the AV claims that the first person to attack her is the 90% ID person. This causes a problem for the prosecution with the Seligman indictment. If she spent some time doing her nails, and if the first attacker wasn't Seligman, then the time line gets more and more difficult to believe. I realize that all of this could happen in 10 minutes .....but then what....if the door is unlocked, wouldn't someone have tried to enter the bathroom and found the AV? I understand the "line of silence" notion, but is it reasonable to assume that no one found her? And if the rape did take 30 minutes, that leaves Seligman out of the mix. Given the problems that I have identifying faces in my classroom (when I see students on campus I'm not always sure if they are or aren't in my class - I have large classes), I can only imagine the difficulty I would have if I had been drugged/intoxicated and assaulted, and then asked to identify someone of a different race from a set of pictures after a three-week period - and be 100 percent sure! If I were a juror, I would tend to question the ID - the DA really did a disservice to the AV and the public with the screw-up on the line-up. I fear for my niece, in part because of this screw-up.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:34:56 PM EST
    imho, don't you know, it's all because "the man" had it in for the LAX team.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:36:28 PM EST
    Thank you SLOphoto. I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings about this case. I personally don't like having my integrity impugned. I hope I haven't spent too much time trying to defend myself. When there was a sudden outburst of impugninity today I think it was pretty clear there was some desperation on the part of people clinging to the AV's version of events. It seems that has passed and we can get back to discussing the case. chew2, I forgive you, again.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#33)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:38:51 PM EST
    great analysis Pat. Where do you see that the first attacker is the 90% guy? Based on the descriptions of Seligmann's and Finnerty's alleged acts, the third person would have been holding her down by the arms and neck. I assume he would be behind her also.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#34)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:42:35 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Now, excuse me, I'm going off to wrestle with myself.
    hahaha... good, we'll still be here when you've pinned yourself.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:44:26 PM EST
    No offense on the statistics, but if 95% of all crimes committed on campus were done by the lacrosse team, it still has zero value in determining if the AV was raped at Buchanan by the accused.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    The time-line (last post - I promise) The defense seems to have time-dated pictures (yes, I know they can be changed) that suggest that the dancing began at about 12:00 and ended after a few minutes. Then there is a period of time when no pictures exist (per the defense) and then there are pictures of the AV leaving the house - apparently falling on the stairs, and then being helped into the car. The time-stamp on the last picture appears to be close to the time when Kim and the AV were leaving (Kim's calls occur quickly after the last time-stamped photo). Further, the cabbie and the neighbor and the police appear to roughly agree on the time that the party ended. The defense claims that Seligman was busy calling (texting?) his girlfriend and another person, and then the cab company. The cabbie IDs Seligman and the ATM photo confirms his presence at the bank, and his Duke ID card confirms his arrival at his dorm. As some on this board have stated, it seems unlikely that Seligman had the time to commit this crime - especially if the party lasted until 12:40 or so. It's clear he wasn't there for the last 25 minutes. And while the DA may not agree with the timeline, what proof does he have that his timeline is correct? Kim can't account for the AV - The AV can't attest to the time - Thus, it is just really hard for me to believe that Seligman did it. While we haven't heard much from Finnerty's attorney, I understand that he has witnesses that place him at a restaurant while the dancing occurred. If this alibi holds up, then there is essentially very little (if any) time when both Finnerty and Seligman were at the party. If this is true - then in the absence of DNA evidence, it would be hard to convict either party. Thus, I think if I were on the jury WITH THE EVIDENCE WE KNOW ABOUT (or think we know about), there would be reasonable doubt - at least for Seligman and thus, for Finnerty as well. I'm not happy about that....it's really possible that a rape occurred. But, unless there is a corroborating witness (which has been hinted at - though, I suspect that this is a ploy by the DA - the "prisoners' dilemma problem") or some substantial DNA, I would have to acquit at this point. It is interesting to note that the Captains didn't use their real names in setting up the "date" from the escort service - and that the players were using false names or codes - while this can be read two ways, it does suggest that they knew that having the dancers at the house was wrong - and they didn't want to be associated with it. Thus, if having the dancers over to the house is wrong, one would assume that they certainly knew that drugging and raping someone was wrong - of course, one could argue that this was part of a plan....thought it seems like a stupid plan to rape someone in your own house. I'm done venting.....my solution is that everyone involved, the players, the dancers, and the DA spend a month in jail for plain stupidity.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:57:23 PM EST
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the lax team was sort of a noisy frat in a not-entirely frat neighborhood at least until recently, and that the way the police "handle" this in Durham is to start dogging them for petty sh*t -- like open containers while standing outside on the lawn, urinating in the bushes, loud music, misc. technical zoning-specific violations and so forth. I KNOW that's how the police handled it in two college towns that I have lived in myself whenever the neighbors started complaining too much. What I'm saying is that if the lax players look like they committed quite a few infractions, I'm not surprised. If they are known for being rowdy in their neighborhood, then they may well have been singled out and targeted to receive them in the first place.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#39)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:00:12 PM EST
    lineuplink Thanks Pat, here's your link. Has your niece at Duke given you her opinion?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#40)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:06:38 PM EST
    Nifong's motives: After the SBI DNA results were released, many of the TV Talking Heads and posters on various blogs and boards predicted Nifong would ride the case out until the primary then, quietly as possible, back out. Instead, he came out swinging. If you listen to the attorneys who actually know him - have tried cases with and against him, they have been saying when he believes in a case he will not back down. He is a fighter. Short of a recantation, I think Nifong will follow this thing to its finish, whatever that might be. Do the commenters that keep intimating that Nifong is trying to delay this case realize if there is a delay it will be due to defense motions. The defense can prevent Nifong from delaying the trial.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:08:48 PM EST
    Duke undergraduate enrollment = 6248 Men = 51.6% = 3224 15/47 = 31.9% 1021/3224 = 31.6%

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:18:03 PM EST
    Do the commenters that keep intimating that Nifong is trying to delay this case realize if there is a delay it will be due to defense motions. The defense can prevent Nifong from delaying the trial.
    imho, was this in reference to my comment?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#43)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:19:15 PM EST
    to PB Were all 1021 Durham/Duke students citations committed by male undergrads?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:22:44 PM EST
    Suprise suprise. There's a bit of animosity between the city PD and the private university PD. Private university PD try to sweep this under the rug. File a report that nothing happened and misrepsent the facts. The gal was under the influence. The Duke PD report was filed in the early morning hours before Durham PD took a statement. The Duke PD was railed in the subsequent independant investigation for not investigating futher.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:29:43 PM EST
    IMHO: Either you are intentionally trying to decieve and lie to the blog, or you misread my comments. First, I informed of the academic and community service accolades of the lacrosse team, which are quite astounding even when compared to the entire Duke student body. You respond with a comparison of disciplinary issues between the lacrosse team and other sports. Where is the falsity in my statistics? None. By showing a fuller picture of the lacrosse team, I have pointed out what is beyond the blinders so many people wear in judging the lacrosse team. A fuller picture that shows a team comprised of young men, who albeit party hard, are decent, hard-working, studious, caring and normal college kids. Second, I compared the off-campus discipline problems of the lacrosse players to the student body for 2 1/2 years. Yet, you accuse me of deception by comparing my 2 1/2 years (or 5 semensters) of statistics with your single, fall semester of 2005. Wrong. While this is not a lie per se, it is clearly a deceptive comparison on your part. It is even more deceptive by proffering the 2005 fall sememster as gospel and not at least including a spring semester. Lacrosse is a spring sport. In the fall they practice only for 6 weeks in Sept. and part of Oct., 3 times a week for "fall ball". Furthermore, historically, there much, much more partying in general at Duke (and most colleges) in the fall during fall rush and football tailgates. My statistics are accurate and honest. Most can be found on the Duke website. I seek only to portray an accurate picture of the lacrosse team. Do you?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:39:24 PM EST
    Teresa: I spoke with my sister and brother-in-law about it. They said she was angry at the players for being so stupid - she knows some of the players casually - but doesn't know any of them well. She's also angry because the campus was becoming a zoo - with all of the media and protestors - she felt somewhat afraid of the atmosphere, especially because she competes for Duke and thus, has to answer questions about it all the time. I guess there are only so many times you can say, "I don't know" before you just get fed-up with the whole thing.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#47)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:44:11 PM EST
    It never quite made much sense to me that Kim called at 12:53 and the cops showed up two minutes later.
    Orinoco, I think 911 confirmed the time of the call. Bissey did state that the police arrived two or three minutes later. I'll check and see if I can find that again.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:49:05 PM EST
    Ding, You wrote:
    Were all 1021 Durham/Duke students citations committed by male undergrads?
    Don't know. I was just showing what Orinoco's logic would yield if he actually made an effort to find out what "+" meant. I think if you wanted to evaluate whether the lacrosse players qualify as better or worse people than your average student this wouldn't be a good way of going about it. From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice, quite a bit bigger percentage (I'm guessing) than among the broader Duke population. But I'm too lazy to do the research to prove it.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#49)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    Police sources, however, told WRAL that before all the facts were even known, a Durham officer was telling other officers in the department that the alleged rape was a fake rape.
    www.wral.com I'll bet this officer's going to be in trouble. If the medical evidence says it's most likely, or is a rape, they didn't do the right thing here. I guess because she's "not important" per the Duke report. The article also says
    Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said on Tuesday that his office has had problems in the past with the insensitivity of a responding officer investigating a rape case, and that it was not uncommon.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#50)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:56:13 PM EST
    Pat, I'm sure it is rough on your niece and the other students. I feel bad for Duke because this could probably have happened anywhere.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:07:18 PM EST
    Teresa: You're absolutely right. In fact, two female faculty members and I were invited to a fraternity dinner to honor their favorite professors. While we were being shown around the house, our student said that the best experience he had at school was the night when the frat invited women wrestlers to wrestler in jello in the basement of the house. We all thought that the comment gave us way more information than we wanted to know. I also spoke with an Associate Dean the other day. He has a friend whose son is hired to be a stripper for sororities! I didn't ask how far the stripping went. What is true is that the problem of underage drinking is a very difficult problem on campus. A majority of students are old enough to drink (includes grads students), yet the underage minority live with the older students and try to emulate them (pledging fraternities and sororities). Thus, the university is in an almost impossible situation - the administrators just hope to keep the lid on it. To further complicate matters, the FERPA law makes communication about students among faculty and administrators very difficult. Thus, it's not like we can be alerted to watch out for certain people. I'm sure that the faculty will be hearing from the President and Provost about certain changes in procedures, once the semester ends.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#52)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:09:31 PM EST
    PB
    From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice, quite a bit bigger percentage (I'm guessing) than among the broader Duke population. But I'm too lazy to do the research to prove it.
    Classic post - too funny. Although I'd put it closer to 50%.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#53)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:10:58 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one, No, I wasn't referring to your post about the General Election. I was referring to this post and other commenters in previous threads: noname posted,
    He could delay trial till the spring and hope the AV backs out on her own. Even if she doesn't and he has to drop the case, by that time we will have found something else to obsess over and it wouldn't be such a big deal.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:11:44 PM EST
    From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice
    By staying silent? Sounds like a pretty passive way to obstruct justice to me. Unless they're under oath, there's no legal obligation for them to talk to the police, especially when their defense theory involves a prosecutorial witch hunt. I haven't made up my mind on this case one way or another, but if I was a lawyer for one of those kids I'd tell them not to say a word about anything to anyone. Why? Because all it takes is one change in your story to call your credibility into question. What time did the stripper leave? Ask 20 people that night and they'll probably give a bunch of different answers (12:30, 12:35, 12:40) - but if a defendant later sees the timestamped photo and testifies 12:33 at trial (or whatever the time was) a prosecutor can now accuse them of changing their story: prosecutor - "You just testified that the AV left at 12:33. But two days after the crime, didn't you tell police that she left at 12:40?" kid - "I might of, I don't remember." prosecutor - "so you don't remember what you told the police, in the middle of the day, perfectly sober during a major investigation 3 days after the crime. But you do remember the exact time this woman left the party over a year ago on a night when you'd been drinking for 3 three hours?" kid - "uh . . [looks at lawyer for help] I mean, I remember, but not all the details." prosecutor - "but you still testified about those details under oath, didn't you?" ect.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#55)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:14:59 PM EST
    I've had a few out of character alcohol incidents myself Pat (nothing illegal just stupid). I know it's a huge problem. It was when I was in college too. azbb, you don't think 50% are talking do you?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#56)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:18:19 PM EST
    azbballfan posted:
    Classic post - too funny. Although I'd put it closer to 50%.
    I agree it was funny, but your %50 figure? Are you figuring in the Duke's Women's Lacrosse team or have I missed some breaking news: DUKE LACROSSE PLAYER COMES OUT OF SHADOWS TO SPEAK OUT AND BRINGS 22 OF HIS TEAMMATES WITH HIM

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#57)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:25:39 PM EST
    Oops, sorry for the confusion regarding the 50% post. The reports indicate that at the time of the incident, only about half of the team was present. Asking the players not to answer questions because they might not accurately remember facts isn't a good answer. All you say is: "I'm not sure, but I think it was" and you're off the hook. All of the interviews are recorded and written up to allow for scrutiny of the interviewer's tactics. Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#58)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:26:32 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica posted:
    Orinoco, I think you may be right about true believers who cling to the AV's story.
    Do you two have a list of these commenters you have designated the true believers?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:30:34 PM EST
    Hues, You wrote:
    By staying silent? Sounds like a pretty passive way to obstruct justice to me. Unless they're under oath, there's no legal obligation for them to talk to the police, especially when their defense theory involves a prosecutorial witch hunt.
    The difference between taking the fifth and taking the first is that the fifth obstructs justice while the first doesn't. I don't fault people for taking the fifth. It's their right. But I do fault them for obstructing justice. If you want to be considered innocent, take the first. But if you're concerned with being "not guilty," by all means take the fifth. That's what it's for.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#60)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:33:30 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I personally don't like having my integrity impugned.
    Bob, You might want to take that up with your wrestling opponent. ;)

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#61)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:44:41 PM EST
    I KNOW that's how the police handled it in two college towns that I have lived in myself whenever the neighbors started complaining too much. What I'm saying is that if the lax players look like they committed quite a few infractions, I'm not surprised. If they are known for being rowdy in their neighborhood, then they may well have been singled out and targeted to receive them in the first place.
    The police were responding to the neighbors mounting complaints, but I read that the neighbors to the two lacrosse houses in Trinity Park said the lacrosse players were not the worse offenders in the neighborhood (the real frat boys were) and when not drinking, the lacrosse players were respectful and genuinely remorseful for their offensive behavior.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:45:04 PM EST
    Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.
    Not at all. None of the duke lawyers are doing this for the money. Any defense attorney in North Carolina, who could afford to, would represent them for free. It's the sort of high profile interesting case that most lawyers can only dream of. Telling a suspect (and they're all still suspects, guilty or innocent) to keep quiet is just plain old solid advice. Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection. From a defendant's standpoint, and as suspects they're all potential defendants, going on the record with police can only hurt.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:45:06 PM EST
    Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.
    Not at all. None of the duke lawyers are doing this for the money. Any defense attorney in North Carolina, who could afford to, would represent them for free. It's the sort of high profile interesting case that most lawyers can only dream of. Telling a suspect (and they're all still suspects, guilty or innocent) to keep quiet is just plain old solid advice. Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection. From a defendant's standpoint, and as suspects they're all potential defendants, going on the record with police can only hurt.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:54:47 PM EST
    The difference between taking the fifth and taking the first is that the fifth obstructs justice while the first doesn't. I don't fault people for taking the fifth. It's their right. But I do fault them for obstructing justice.
    This is fair, but obstructing justice in the post I was replying to was presented as the crime of obstructing justice. Staying silent in these circumstances isn't a crime and shouldn't be. If no rape happened, are the other team members obstructing justice by refusing to help the prosecutor convict the defendants? I don't think they are. I can guarantee that even if every single player on the team sat down with the police and told their story, claiming that nothing happened, the prosecutor wouldn't drop the charges. But the prosecutor would use those statements to try and discredit anything in the defendants' story that differed from those accounts.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#65)
    by james on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:03:26 PM EST
    TL, I have a question re: Nifong as potential witness. Nifong has claimed that he 'took over' the police chief's responsibilities when his mother fell ill and he had to attend to her. That, says Nifong, is why he was so involved in the investigation. This is in the same story as the lineup one - it is his 'excuse' as to why he was so involved. If he were to become a potential witness due to his involvement in a suspect lineup (I am saying this assuming it stands but defence can question it) would his ability to prosecute be impacted? He has claimed that he was, in effect, the acting police chief. Duke is falling all over itself to minimize the impact. They don't need to - they did take it as seriously as they needed to at the time. This '20' person reference is interesting - wonder why that didn't get inserted into the police report. Oh yes, we have the 3 in 1 acting police chief, DA, and candidate. -To an above poster: You are incorrect, Nifong will become the new DA simply by winning the primary. There isn't a (credible) republican challenger.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#66)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:07:28 PM EST
    This '20' person reference is interesting - wonder why that didn't get inserted into the police report.
    Have we seen a Durham police report or statement from the accuser?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#67)
    by james on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:13:29 PM EST
    Pat, Many of the Lacrosse players look strikingly similar. I would say, though, that if the AV was not attacked her ID might have had more to do with who was the most obnoxious. Finerty looks good for something like that, same deal with Seligman. For all of you who don't live in the Raleigh/Durham area, the news and observer had a 'twist' on their rape victim identification policy today. Specifically they changed the wording from 'it is the policy of...to not reveal the identity of [an AV in rape cases]' to '....GENERALY the policy..." That sort of got me when I was reading the N & O this morning. It was after referencing the dad (who has very little credibility anyway) but clearly applied to the AV. It appears as if the N & O may, in fact, reveal her identity at some point. I've been in contact with a few of their reporters and that's the general idea, at least as far as the father is concerned. They have concerns about giving the father rein to tell whatever stories he wishes without being actually responsible for his quotes. (They believe that if they were to identify him he might stop some of his more unbelievable remarks). Interestingly, the N&O seems to be less and less on the side of the AV (they were strongly AV to begin with). Now they are essentially neutral. The story on the captain sentenced today was actually pretty balanced, mentioned that the 'only reason' he was there is because he cooperated with Nifong... I go to Wake (Winston-Salem, NC) and am not anywhere near as well off as most of those lacrosse kids. Neither are most Duke students, which is something people seem to forget - many are from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#68)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:15:13 PM EST
    hob:
    Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection.
    Assuming that something did in fact happen. True, the lacrosse players have their right not to cooperate with an investigation until charges are made and they are compelled through the courts. A common tactic used by known criminals and terrorists. I guess this puts these students in a new rarified class of elite.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:18:10 PM EST
    James
    I go to Wake
    c/o 2001 here. I have a definite love hate relationship with the school.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:29:24 PM EST
    Assuming that something did in fact happen. True, the lacrosse players have their right not to cooperate with an investigation until charges are made
    I actually think it's more important if nothing happened. If nothing happened they're caught in a witchunt and any of them could be accused. If something did happe and they know about it, cooperating with the authorities might be the best way for an innocent player to avoid being charged as a result of mistaken identity. But look what happened to one of the guys that did cooperate? He just had an old open container violation brought back up. If he had stayed silent his lawyer could have offered his cooperation to get that charge reduced (compare with Kim - who traded her cooperation for a favorable reccomendation to the court). A suspect should stay silent for the same reason Nifong shouldn't have gone on TV proclaiming that DNA testing would exonerate the innocent. It can bite you!

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#71)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:34:25 PM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    The lax players wouldn't talk under this much pressure. Not even Kim could testify for the av, when she's in the same house. Those two facts were pretty compelling to me even without the DNA.
    [I assume you mean they wouldn't NOT talk if they knew there had bee a sexual assault? - if not, nevermind..] This argument is used a lot here. Are you talking about the pressure to do the right thing? In my opinion, they have already demonstrated they are not responding to that societal pressure. Are you talking about the pressure to not say something that could get their friends locked up for 15 years? That could be a reason for their silence if they believed anyone at the party assaulted the woman or not. Some commenters think they would only remain silent if they knew nothing happened, but couldn't they also feel pressure to keep silent if they knew something happened, but didn't believe it was the crime for which their friends could be convicted? How about if some of the players saw three guys drag her into the bathroom, but believe the guys when they say nothing happened - they just scared her, or just took the money back? They may feel their testimony could get their friends wrongly convicted and thus they feel the pressure to remain silent. Does anyone that "clings to the belief" the players would not cover up a rape, agree this scenario is plasible? The part about Kim: The defense attorneys have conceded that the accuser was alone in the house for about ten minutes. Kim could have been in the yard or in her car when the accuser was being attacked.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#72)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:46:45 PM EST
    Wonder why the Duke police report released today said that Durham police said the charges shouldn't exceed "simple misdemeanor assault"? Wonder why they (he) didn't believe at first that she was raped but that she was assaulted? Rita's show read the paragraph about the Duke police observation of the accuser at the hospital. Maybe Dan Abrams was watching.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#73)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:27:55 PM EST
    IMHO, regarding "true believers," I do think that some people have seized on this case and have seen the individuals involved as icons for some greater truth. Someone can believe in feminism, can hold that women are raped and then not believed by authorities all too often (I think that). It may turn out that the Durham cop should have shown more sensitivity to the AV, for example. But at a certain point the beliefs we hold generally have to give way to the specifics of the case. To presume that this is some reenactment of slaveowners raping slaves, for example, puts one in a position of being unable to look at the evidence of this case with honesty. We all do this. We all bring our personal beliefs of life and society generally to specific things. That is human, but it's not the best way to weigh evidence. There is a presumption stated by some that because of their wealth and privilege that these men are very capable of raping the dancer. That's a class analysis that may hold generally but doesn't allow for the individuals involved. I think the alleged victim is an unreliable witness, and I have stated my reasons. That doesn't preclude that she was raped, but I think that relying on the AV's version of events is probably not the best way to figure out what happened. Most of us say things here without complete explication. Some people come up with partially formed ideas about this piece or evidence or that statement. I know that I do. What should happen here is a give and take where people feel free to offer their opinions. If someone disagrees, or thinks something was misstated or misrepresented, sure, that person should speak up. I just think that attacking each other defeats the purpose of a forum for discussion. If I propose something and it's off-the-wall, no matter how much I flail trying to make it float it will sink. Let it sink without the personal attacks.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#74)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:44:01 PM EST
    Orinoco, I was going to comment on that but then decided to let it pass. So far, everyone who was there is a potential "Mister 90%." When I was a shop steward and union officer, I always advised my clients to be quiet until it was appropriate, which usually didn't mean when a couple of inspectors were ganging up on you while you were without representation. I've seen way too many innocent people unnecessarily entangle themselves by being "cooperative." I've seen a couple of people actually confess to things other than what was being investigated because they wanted to cooperate. In this case I don't think that Nifong has done anything that would engender trust if I were an attendee at that party. If someone were adding up things that Nifong did wrong, one would be his hostility against everyone at that party. He lost any hope of cooperation with his public pronouncements. Actually, because no one has come forward suggests to me that most people were unaware of any rape happening, if a rape did occur. It's easy not to tell Nifong anything if nothing happened. You're not hiding anything. It could be that everyone there knew a rape happened. There have been larger conspiracies. But it could also be that nothing of the sort happened. Does anyone think that Nifong wants someone to come into his office and tell him that he didn't see anything? To what purpose? Nifong wouldn't believe him anyway.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#75)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:48:24 PM EST
    I think the alleged victim is an unreliable witness, and I have stated my reasons. That doesn't preclude that she was raped, but I think that relying on the AV's version of events is probably not the best way to figure out what happened.
    Bob, except for the 20 assaulted her revised to 3, we don't really know her version. We know what her family says but not her. I hope we get to read the full police statement someday. Based on the "she's not important" in the Duke report, it makes me wonder how seriously they did take her. Then, after her exam at the hospital, they started taking her very seriously. Why? I hope after May 15 that someone will leak some of that report (police and medical).

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#76)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:49:20 PM EST
    Teresa, My guess that the reason the officer may have thought that the AV was assaulted was because of the bruising she incurred. My guess why he didn't believe that she was raped was because she kept changing her story. The bruises were believable, she wasn't. That was presumably before the rape examination. Goodnight, moon.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#77)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:52:45 PM EST
    goodnight Bob

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:54:30 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    IMHO:
    Either you are intentionally trying to decieve and lie to the blog, or you misread my comments.
    First, I informed of the academic and community service accolades of the lacrosse team, which are quite astounding even when compared to the entire Duke student body. You respond with a comparison of disciplinary issues between the lacrosse team and other sports. Where is the falsity in my statistics? None. By showing a fuller picture of the lacrosse team, I have pointed out what is beyond the blinders so many people wear in judging the lacrosse team. A fuller picture that shows a team comprised of young men, who albeit party hard, are decent, hard-working, studious, caring and normal college kids.
    Kali, doggie, what is it with you and me? Everyone else here seems to like me just fine...Oh....wait...oh yeah... bummer... Kali, You neglected to accept my olive branch:
    Kalidoggie,
    Overall, I agree with your post about the Lacrosse team members (from the other thread), but then there's those damn lying statistics ...
    I meant it. Before posting, I even deleted my snarky comment: The community service hours are impressive, I'll bet most of them are not even court ordered. Bad joke aside, the community service is impressive, as are their excellent grades. I do not think the team is comprised of hooligans. The statistics you used are for the past two and a half years. I am talking about this team, not the lacrosse culture at Duke. Half of the curent team are freshman and sophomores. They are under represented using your numbers:
    there were 1021 citations of Duke students by Durham police in the last 2 1/2 years, only 15 of those were lacrosse players.
    Two of those two and a half years do not include any of the current freshmen, one year does not include any of the current sophomores. Orinoco's proclamation that "the lax team actually has disproportionately fewer citations than the general population" is not true for the most recent statistics for this team. So the Fall semester is the party semester? Is this just for the lacrosse team or for everyone? What is unfair about that? When I said "but then there's those damn lying statistics ..." I didn't mean just your statistics, I meant mine too. Just how silly is this?: * 50% of the noise ordinance cases were LAX players (1/2) 50% of the noise complaints caused by LAX players! Think how much quieter it would be if they were disbanded - one less loud party. I agree with the committee's recomendation that the LAX team resume play next year. I wish this season hadn't gone down the toilet. I think the recomendation should stand even if a player is convicted of a sexual assault (which I consider unlikely from what we know about this case so far). I think it is a shame that so much damage has come from the unfortunate decision on the players part to host or attend this party and the unfortunate decision on the dancers' part to just not turn around once they realized it was not a party of five for whom they would be dancing. It would have taken so little for all of this to have been avoided.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#79)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:03:11 PM EST
    Teresa, You're right about the victim's statement not being known. We'll know what the alleged victim's statement is at some later point. We do know that she claimed she was raped by three men in a bathroom and that two of them were Finnerty and Seligmann. We know she said she was assaulted for thirty minutes. I don't believe that she is a reliable witness by what can be inferred, not the least being her intoxication that night and what actions of hers we have heard about. I am always willing to be corrected. Until I am, that's my belief. However, I am interested in understanding why someone would find her credible. There may be something I've overlooked or discounted. Do you have a reason to think that the AV is crebible? Why or why not? In the meantime, goodnight.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#80)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:07:04 PM EST
    Baker is standing behind the city's police officers, saying the Duke officer who wrote the report got secondhand information. "He did not have a conversation with our officer," Baker said in a telephone interview Tuesday night. "He did not have a conversation with the victim. He prepared his report based on conversations he overheard and the context of that conversation."
    New statement tonight by Durham City Manager. Maybe the Duke police overheard about the 20 guys in the wrong context. abclocal.go.c

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:08:27 PM EST
    I'll answer you tomorrow then. Goodnight Bob :)

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#82)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:35:51 PM EST
    The Herald Sun: Duke based initial gang-rape reactions on campus officer who eavesdropped on call
    Day also said the woman "was claiming that she was raped by approximately 20 white males," a fact the Bowen-Chambers report mentioned prominently and that prompted lawyers representing members of the lacrosse team to launch a fresh round of attacks on the accuser's credibility.
    Baker [City Manager Patrick Baker ], however, said he didn't know where Day had gotten that information.
    "I'm not aware of that at all," Baker said when asked if the woman had told Durham police she'd been attacked by 20 men. "I've met with just about everybody involved in the case, and it hasn't been brought to my attention. I don't know where that's coming from."
    This case keeps getting curiouser and curiouser...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#83)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:43:36 PM EST
    Well gee, imho. It seems Duke officials are saying it was an overheard cell phone conversation.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:45:33 PM EST
    With respect to the 90% person being the first attacker, see link deleted not in html format

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#84)
    by Lora on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:46:46 PM EST
    (Holy cow, I go away for 2 days, and it takes 3 hours to read the several hundred comments that have accumulated in that time...!) On the issue of the AV's credibility: I don't have reason to think that the AV is not credible in terms of her description of the night's events at the party. I don't think it has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that she was severely impaired. I think her actions following the alleged assault could be explained by shock, disbelief, pain, trauma, etc. This could be construed as impairment of course, but there is no reason to think it would necessarily impair her memory of events. Prior to the alleged assault, the only evidence that she was impaired was her possibly stumbling some during the dance, and Kim Robert's concern that there was something the matter. Plus, she had apparently drunk some of the offered drinks. Now, if one of her high heeled shoes came off (7 inches is impossible, I think, though I didn't get my ruler out, sorry but it's late) because maybe the strap was loose, it could explain her stumbling and even looking a little glazed, as in (Oh, sh--, my shoe fell off...how'm I supposed to dance?) Again, I remind readers that initially there was no mention of her being impaired. A defense lawyer said that the dance was halted due to "offensive remarks." My thoughts on why the idea of her being impaired when she arrived was brought up are that: later after word of her bruises leaked out, defense lawyers combed the party pictures looking for bruises to suggest that she came injured, that she fell and hurt herself because she was impaired. The defense lawyer(s) stated that the pictures showed she was impaired. I called them on this in the earlier comments here, because a picture cannot show impairment, it can only show what the person was doing at the time the picture was snapped. So...I really don't think it's been firmly established that the AV was severely impaired to the extent that she would not remember the details of a rape. And the 20 rapists vs 3 issue is just plain misinterpretation, imo, and not relevant to her credibility. And...way past bedtime. Good night!

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#85)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:47:58 PM EST
    Anyone who read the Duke investigation of their own police's response could easily tell that the Duke PD's assertion that the gal made the claim she was raped by 20 white males was considered to be poor judgment. Now, we are starting to see evidence of this. Man, there sure seem to be a few posters here who are chomping on the bit to string this alleged victim up. Apparently they have some friends in the Duke PD. Again - is anyone suprised that the Duke PD attempted to sweep this under the rug? And is anyone suprised that the duke students who were at the party are acting like a sleeper cell in their cooperation to hide the events of that night? No - noone is. Especially those who think it is their right to subvert justice.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#86)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:59:12 PM EST
    Well gee, imho. It seems Duke officials are saying it was an overheard cell phone conversation.
    What twists and turns this case takes...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#87)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:05:27 PM EST
    azbb, I'm starting to think the police initially thought her story was too bizarre to believe. That may explain some of the delay in the search warrant. They probably checked on her schedule with the escort service and interviewed Kim thoroughly before they even considered getting a search warrant for the home of some Duke students. You have to admit it is a wild tale whether true or not. I really fault these folks who put out that report yesterday. They didn't even contact Durham police and now every newspaper and TV show around has announced the 20 men raped her story as if it is a proven fact. Tucker Carlson even waved it in front of the camera yelling "and this is an official police report, she said 20 men raped her!" I'd bet $100 he doesn't explain what happened tomorrow and I'm sure Abrams won't bother to read it either. How will they ever find a jury to hear this if it goes that far?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#88)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:17:31 PM EST
    Charged Duke lacrosse players have May 18 court date

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:18:51 PM EST
    What a fair media trial!

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#90)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:38:07 PM EST
    Tucker Carlson even waved it in front of the camera yelling "and this is an official police report, she said 20 men raped her!"
    Yep. That headline is all over.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#91)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:42:12 PM EST
    Yep. That headline is all over.
    I think the officials at Duke have really stepped in it now. They should have a news conference to clear this up.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#92)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:53:31 PM EST
    I'll bet $10,0000 that Tucker Carlson is a 3rd or 4th generation shill hoping to make a name for himself with conservatives unwilling to admit they could ever make a mistake. Anyone willing to take me on that bet? Again - I've said it all along - any REASONABLE person who read the Duke report KNEW the statement regurgitated here so vehemently amounted to bad policework and wishful heresay. All the writers did was interview the head of the Duke Police. And all he did was to try to cover his butt through a lame, vauge statement based upon 3rd and 4th handed reports of the facts. The writers of the report KNEW that the shoddy policework would come out - that's why the strongest recommendation they made was to the Duke Police department. All this does is make the players look worse. Clearly, the report states that the University tipped off the team that the Durham police were investigating. While it doesn't probably meet the test of criminal conduct, the Universities' crime against justice to the community is morally abhorrent.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#93)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:56:21 PM EST
    All this does is make the players look worse. Clearly, the report states that the University tipped off the team that the Durham police were investigating.
    I think it makes everyone look worse. Who gained by this. The school? I have placed no blame on Duke in this whole mess but now I think they messed up releasing this last report without being more thorough.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#94)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:02:21 PM EST
    William Bowen was doing some damage control on Abrams tonight: Abrams report

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#95)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:08:00 PM EST
    Tucker Carlson: Here it is! It's a primary document!

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#96)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:09:15 PM EST
    I'm sure Dan will give the City Manager time tomorrow to set him straight. ;) I just listened to Tucker again and he said this is directly from the first officer who spoke to the accuser. Someone needs to slap him.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#97)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:20:13 PM EST
    Yes, Teresa, I thought I heard him say the officer that wrote the report spoke to the victim? Tucker went berserk. He actually made some Tarzan type yells. He could not be happier about that report. He won't be pleased when he wakes up to "the rest of the story."

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#98)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:22:20 PM EST
    He will totally ignore it. I think the false rape charge against him has warped him. Not that that wasn't awful for him to go through. And not that he wasn't warped anyway ;)

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#99)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:33:29 PM EST
    who knows what tomorrow will bring? nite folks.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#100)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:54:50 PM EST
    Suddenly the tides turn as a self imposed timeline by Duke forces some really poor judgement on their part and the part of their police to be brought to light. Now we know some of the idiocy behind the wall of silence.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:52:51 AM EST
    Hues, Hi Hues, You wrote:
    Staying silent in these circumstances isn't a crime and shouldn't be.
    Well, the fifth is about "self"-incrimination. If you were to propose an amendment favoring a right to remain silent on the grounds that my speaking out might incriminate others, I wouldn't support that. I don't think its a healthy extension of the rule. You wrote:
    If no rape happened, are the other team members obstructing justice by refusing to help the prosecutor convict the defendants? I don't think they are.
    It's the Wall of Baloney that creates for Nifong a genuine duty to press on with this case. So even if Nifong could give a hoot whether he convicts an innocent person (a proposition that only the true Duke-oisee don't regard with raised eyebrows), using the Wall of Baloney as a means to combat that is a terrible technique, akin to fanning the flames. Silence is just a shield. The truth is a sword AND a shield. The first amendment was designed for the purpose of shaming government officials into doing the right thing. That's the tool for the job here. This whole "ooh, I might get convicted for something I didn't do" rationalization is so wimpy it makes you wonder how Finnerty could possibly be guilty of either of the acts he's being charged with. After all, it takes a certain amount of courage to jump a stranger. Perhaps not drinking has taken its toll on him. You wrote:
    I can guarantee that even if every single player on the team sat down with the police and told their story, claiming that nothing happened, the prosecutor wouldn't drop the charges.
    Really you can't. But it's not a risky thing for you to "guarantee," since these "boys" aren't interested in gambling with their futures. They think they're actually in good hands. Orinoco writes:
    I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
    Jefferson once wrote "when I consider the fact that God is just, I tremble for my country." Maybe instead of laughing or crying,Orinoco, you should just tremble. It plays better on the big screen.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:52:58 AM EST
    Now we know some of the idiocy behind the wall of silence.
    Did you read the article that IMHO posted? The captains voluntarily gave eight hours of interviews to the Durham PD and even went down to the station house. It looks like no one at the house made any effort to get rid of the AV's stuff sitting in the bathroom either. If a heinous crime had occured, and there was a big conspiracy to cover it up, you'd think someone would at least throw away her stuff or clean a little. The "wall of silence" only cropped up when it became clear that the police didn't believe their testimony and would clearly be press charges. And doesn't it strike you as a little odd that out of all the scraps of evidence that have come to light on near daily basis over the last two months, almost every single piece has favored the defense? Now I appreciate that the defense is leaking a lot more information than the prosecutors, but it's not like the DA is running a tight-lipped ship. It just strikes me as odd that the only two favorable facts for the AV are 1) she was hysterical at the hospital (to an extent they couldn't get so much as a police statement from her) and 2) Kim's statement that the AV seemed sober when she showed up. The unknown factor seems to be the SANE report and whether it showed vaginal and anal trauma. From all the second hand accounts I've read, it's hard to get a feel. A lot of articles and reports have mentioned bruises on her legs, pelvis, and shoulders - and injuries consistent with her account - but very few have menitoned evidence of vaginal and anal trauma (and of those few I don't know of any that said, I talked to the Nurse and this is what she told me. I'd think there would be serious medical privacy issues about that anyway.) If you're a nurse examining a hysterical woman covered in bruises who's saying she was raped, I think you can legitimatly describe those as injuries/trauma consistent with the AV's story. Honestly, who knows. I think it's safe to say we're all basically clueless on this and will be for many minths to come.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:05:44 AM EST
    But PB the fact is, the captains did cooperate. They gave statements for 8 hours. They voluntarily offered to give DNA samples and take lie detectors. (both of which were stupid offers, since I'm sure the DNA of the three guys who live in the house is all over floor where there are pictures of the AV rolling around and lie detectors are notoriously unreliable.)
    This whole "ooh, I might get convicted for something I didn't do" rationalization is so wimpy
    If the police are mounting a full court press into a crime you think is made up, and all the evidence they need for an indictment is the AV's word that this happened, how do you not seriously consider the possibility that you might get convicted? It's easy to say it's wimpy form a distance, but when you or someone you're close to might spend ten years in prison on a false charge becasue of your bravado in volunteering evidence that you think might clear everyone's good name (and your lawyer strongly advises you nto to do it) how wimpy is that? It sounds rational to me.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:10:19 AM EST
    It just strikes me as odd that the only two favorable facts for the AV are 1) she was hysterical at the hospital (to an extent they couldn't get so much as a police statement from her) and 2) Kim's statement that the AV seemed sober when she showed up.
    I hesitate to claim anything as "fact" at this distance. They're still factoids to me. But there are many factoids other than those you name which I would regard as favorable to the prosecution. Kim not only noted that the dancer was functioning when she showed up. She also noted that the accuser drank a concoction at the party that she did not herself pour. There also has been an admission by the defense that the accuser returned to the house for some undefined amount of time upon first exiting it. Kim's sighting of Finnerty at the party can't be said to help him, nor would the captains' failure to include Seligman on the list of attendees be favorable to Seligman, in my imagination. We're a very long way from putting any men in a bathroom with the accuser ("Sweetheart, you can't leave"), but we're also quite a distance from excluding the possibility. The present location of the purse, the money, and the shoe are all still mysteries. Somebody knows where these things went and isn't telling. Odds are better than 20 to 1 that the person who knows is not a stripper.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:26:44 AM EST
    It's easy to say it's wimpy form a distance, but when you or someone you're close to might spend ten years in prison on a false charge becasue of your bravado in volunteering evidence that you think might clear everyone's good name (and your lawyer strongly advises you nto to do it) how wimpy is that? It sounds rational to me.
    Since when is "rational" the antonym of "wimpy?" The world is overflowing with rational wimps.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#106)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:11:46 AM EST
    huesofblue posted:
    The unknown factor seems to be the SANE report and whether it showed vaginal and anal trauma. From all the second hand accounts I've read, it's hard to get a feel.
    We have Nifong's second hand account:
    The Abrams Report:
    NIFONG: I am convinced that there was a rape, yes, sir.
    ABRAMS: And why are you so convinced of that?
    NIFONG: The circumstances of the case are not suggestive of the alternate explanation that has been suggested by some of the members of the situation. There is evidence of trauma in the victim's vaginal area that was noted when she was examined by a nurse at the hospital. And her general demeanor was suggestive of the fact that she had been through a traumatic situation.
    and the search warrant:
    Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore, the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience.


    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#107)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:34:27 AM EST
    News & Observer: Duke report draws retort from Durham
    "Their officer did not speak to our officer," Baker said. "He appears to have overheard half a conversation, and he didn't follow up."
    "Any assertion that the Durham Police Department didn't take this case seriously or indicated that it would blow over is completely contradicted by the facts and our actions," Baker said.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#108)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:35:54 AM EST
    It sounds like Duke shouldn't have released their report. Or they should have at least given it to someone in Durham to review and comment.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#109)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:41:17 AM EST
    Yes, Bob, I agree. from the N & O article linked above:
    Baker said that neither he, Police Chief Steve Chalmers nor any other Durham city official was interviewed for the study, which he said was based solely on the campus police force's account of events.
    "I find it odd the state of mind of the whole Police Department appears to have been accepted with no effort to verify that was indeed the case," Baker said.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#110)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:06:12 AM EST
    Lora, You said that you believe that the AV was a reliable witness and you say, "I don't think it has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that she was severely impaired." The photos seem to show that she was walking with one shoe on, one shoe off (I got the 7-inch heels from Teresa) at the party for about a half-hour or so. She could have been taking the shoe off and putting it back on, but wearing one shoe seems the most logical explanation. We have Roberts' comment that she was glassy-eyed. We have her fallen on the back steps. We have her being helped into the car. We have her passed out in Roberts' car at Kroger's. We have the security guard's comments. We have the police officer initially taking her to the drunk tank before taking her to the hospital. Are you saying that all of this is consistent with shock from being raped and not consistent with being intoxicated? I understand that once someone admits that the AV was intoxicated then one has to admit that her recollection may have also been impaired. The standard on making a judgment here or even in court isn't whether it was "beyond a reasonable doubt" that she was impaired. The standard is whether she was impaired according to what was seen by the witnesses. She isn't on trial for public intoxication. She is a witness to an alleged crime and her state of mind has to be taken into consideration when giving weight to her version of events. I think you can make logical inferences that the AV was intoxicated at the Buchanan house and was passed out in Roberts' car from that same intoxication. That may very well have impacted her recollection of events that night. As Teresa said, we haven't even seen the alleged victim's statement, we can only infer her story from her one interview, Nifong's statements, the search warrants and indictments. But consider why you would invoke a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in order for you to hold that the AV was not severely impaired. We all have beliefs about the case and we all have intuitions. Admitting that one intuits something rather than basing it on fact can either lead us to the reasons underlying the intuition, or it can lead us to why we are refusing to accept certain information. Neither is a bad thing.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#111)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:17:46 AM EST
    Excellent article on false rape allegations: 25% of rape claims may be false?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:24:16 AM EST
    Bob, I think there is no question she was intoxitated. But as long as her story is supported by the evidence I dont think anyone can dismiss her as being not credible. So are you suggesting that anyone intoxitated and has a questionable background could be raped but noone can be charged because the victim's credibility is questionable.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#114)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:28:28 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, It's an interesting story (although I hate to admit that FOX does anything worth praising) on false rape accusations. Whatever the correct statistic is, though, we are still dealing here with a specific case. We can't prove or disprove the AV's claims by general rape statistics like we can't prove or disprove three lacrosse players' guilt by what percentage of lacrosse players were involved in other infractions.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:37:38 AM EST
    Bob, Duke asked that the report be prepared by an outside source:
    The report, ordered by Brodhead, is authored by Charlotte civil rights leader and former N.C. Central Chancellor Julius Chambers, and former Princeton University President William Bowen.
    William Bowen co-authored a book called The Shape of the River, which seems (from a quick scan at Amazon) to be a paean to affirmative action. I am wondering whether the authors were more interested in uncovering the university's ass than the opposite. I am also wondering why Duke asked them to prepare the report. I think you used the expression "self-flagellation" earlier.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#116)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:38:31 AM EST
    I agree Bob. There were a lot of stats thrown around on this site previously which had no scientific basis, I have searched high and low and have been unable to find anything worthwhile, this is the first article I had seen worth anything at all. I am no fan of foxnews but I do read their website daily to see how things are covered on the other side.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#117)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:40:51 AM EST
    IMHO, From your Herald Sun article it looks like Day, the Duke police officer, was guilty of carelessly reporting as fact an overheard rumor from a police source who wasn't even involved in the investigation:
    Day and the sergeant were at a loading dock outside Duke Hospital, where Durham police had taken the woman for treatment. The sergeant made a call, and Day overheard him "say something to the effect of the witness had changed her story and he didn't think there were going to be anything other than misdemeanor charges filed," Baker said.
    The sergeant Day overheard at the hospital loading dock supervises patrol officers in District 2, the Durham Police Department operations zone that covers the Duke campus. He was not one of the investigators assigned to the case, Baker said.
    Further, there appears no factual basis for the "raped by 20 men" claim.
    "I'm not aware of that at all," Baker said when asked if the woman had told Durham police she'd been attacked by 20 men. "I've met with just about everybody involved in the case, and it hasn't been brought to my attention. I don't know where that's coming from."
    Baker, confirms that the AV only provided sufficient details to the police after she had calmed down.
    Baker reiterated earlier comments that police had trouble getting a statement from the woman. "I understand the alleged victim was very upset, and crying, and emotional," he said. But sometime between 3 and 4 a.m., police decided they needed to bring in an investigator to talk to the woman. A female officer who happened to be on duty was sent to the hospital, Baker said. The two detectives who've led the subsequent investigation, Benjamin Himan and Sgt. Mark Gottlieb, joined the case the afternoon of March 14. Police didn't get a statement from the woman until the morning of March 16, Baker said. They secured a search warrant for 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. that afternoon and served it later in the evening. Baker said two Duke police officers accompanied Durham police to the search.
    The Duke police did not seem to treat the charges seriously even after the search warrant. More carelessness on their part? I also noticed the incident report by officer Day did not reference his fellow Duke officer's report of the AV's hysteria in the emergency room. More shoddy police work by Day. In any case, Day's report would not be admissible evidence, since it consists of unsourced hearsay statements.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#118)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:45:12 AM EST
    Hicht, Not at all. Sometimes a victim is intoxicated and still can give a fair account of events, sometimes a victim is so intoxicated that she can't. (If you go back up the string, there is a discussion about a toxicology test that touches on this.) The woman could have been slipped a mickey (to use an older colloquialism) and still had enough sense about her to understand what was happening. But walking around with one shoe on and one shoe off is not explicable behavior. It suggests being strongly intoxicated. So does being glassy-eyed, falling down, being unable to walk, passing out, etc. We are only speculating here. We haven't seen sworn statements by any of the witnesses or the AV. We haven't seen any tox report. Common sense suggests that the AV was so intoxicated as to her motor skills, her awareness about missing a shoe, even her ability to remain conscious that her ability to observe events may also have been impaired. Your comment about supporting evidence is on point. None of this matters if DNA proves that Finnerty and Seligmann raped her. If the DNA evidence isn't there, and Seligmann's alibi is, would you find her observations credible?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#119)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:49:15 AM EST
    Duke Police's report was written right after the event. They don't need the Durham Police's confirmation to go back to revise the record written at that time. At least Day really had a source in the Durham police, even though his judgement for later action may not be proper. Duke Report is written by Drs. Bowen and Chambers. Who are these two people? "William Bowen, President of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and former President of Princeton University, and Julius Chambers, former Executive Director of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and former Chancellor of North Carolina Central University."

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#120)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:53:40 AM EST
    I'm curious why the alleged victim didn't give a statement to the police until March 16. I can't say that I'm an expert on criminal matters, but generally police want to get a statement as soon as possible. Initial recollections are better than later recollections. If someone is unconscious, of course, you have to wait until the person is awake. Does anyone have an explanation for the delay? It was my understanding that the AV was released later on March 14th. Is that right, or was she hospitalized longer?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#121)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:01:12 AM EST
    I have found what most of you guys have surmised very interesting. But I have to say that I'm surprised that more people aren't hung up on the DNA issue. This isn't a case of to much CSI but by her own account...viciously assaulted by three men in a bathroom for over 30 minutes". There should be something....there just absolutely should be some kind of physical evidence some hair/skin sample something. You have three people involved in a violent attack by her own words and maybe the DA has something but inconclusive doesn't mean that it belongs to anyone at that party. I have been waiting for the second results and if they come up positive then many people will be vindicated for supporting her but if they come up negative or even inconclusive..........is no one else hung up on this point?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#122)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:01:55 AM EST
    I am also wondering, what with Duke having egg on its face, whether the Durham police will investigate or has thoroughly investigated as to whether or not a cop of theirs said the "20 white men raped" comment, or if one of their cops had heard it from the AV herself. I think the Durham City Manager said he'd never heard the statement before, but that suggests that no one investigated the source of the statement.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#123)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:06:28 AM EST
    kitkat, Agreed. DNA's presence or absence pretty much trumps testimony. No DNA, and if the two accused have an alibi, would end the case.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#124)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:08:43 AM EST
    It's hard to know what to make of the Duke report and the Durham City Manager's comments. On the one hand, Baker says he never heard of the 20-man rape allegation, then he says it was overheard as half of a cell phone conversation made by a specific sergeant who wasn't on the case. That's not consistent. But anyway, both the sergeant and the Duke officers will need to be interviewed about what they heard and who they heard it from.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#125)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:11:12 AM EST
    Del, The same thought crossed my mind. Maybe Duke should have gotten John Ashcroft. He was always good at covering up naked statues.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#126)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:26:05 AM EST
    Teresa said:
    azbb, I'm starting to think the police initially thought her story was too bizarre to believe. That may explain some of the delay in the search warrant. They probably checked on her schedule with the escort service and interviewed Kim thoroughly before they even considered getting a search warrant for the home of some Duke students. You have to admit it is a wild tale whether true or not.
    I don't thikn that Durham police has done all these. Remember very early on in the investigation Durham police claimed that they don't know who made the first call and wanted the caller to come out. One of the news story I read even said that the first caller is not the second dancer. Had they done all these work, there would not have been so much confusion now. As Baker said, the delay is simply because the AV could not complete her account. Who are they going to interview and investigate before they get a story from the AV except the captains that hosted the party? Durham Police didn't even bother to interview Bissey the neighbor! I think you are giving the Durham police too much credit, so that you could hold up to your side of truth. Durham Police did not even follow their own guidelines for photo ID lineup. Knowing all the players already have legal representation, they even tried to see if they could get lucky to interview the players without warrant. I'd be really interested in knowing what actual investigation the Durham police has done. If the AV was seen by the first officer as seriously intoxicated, did they test her alcohol level or request a toxicological test to figure out what happened? These are all missing points in this case. It doesn't seem to me that Durham Police did everything they could have done to seek out the truth. They did a lot of things that they shouldn't have done--try to interview people without a warrant and a bad photo ID lineup. From the very beginning Baker has come out to defend whatever the Durham police did or did not do. It just seems to me that whatever the Durham police did or did not do, Baker would always say that they are doing everything right.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#127)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:33:37 AM EST
    Bob,
    Your comment about supporting evidence is on point. None of this matters if DNA proves that Finnerty and Seligmann raped her. If the DNA evidence isn't there, and Seligmann's alibi is, would you find her observations credible?
    If it turns out that she misidentified Seligmann and they can't find any evidence or witness to support her identification, I would question her credibility in identifying attackers. If this is what you mean I agree with you. I think this is the worst case scenario for everyone if it is concluded a rape occurred but she can't make a correct identification because of her intoxication especially if it is involuntary.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#128)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:39:34 AM EST
    I think a lot of things will come to light next Monday. According to NBC17, Monday will be the first day of discovery where the prosecution and the defense must share their evidence with each other. The second DNA result is also expected to come back on the same day.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#129)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:57:55 AM EST
    think this is the worst case scenario for everyone if it is concluded a rape occurred but she can't make a correct identification because of her intoxication especially if it is involuntary.
    I don't know what happened, but I hope a rape did not occur. First, I would hate for the AV to have suffered a rape and then this scrutiny, but from the evidence we've seen (admittedly very incomplete) a conviction does not look likely.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#130)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:06:15 AM EST
    If you find her credible you have believe that she was lucid during the attack. She was lucid enough after the fact to state specifics: time, people, acts involved. How can it be argued later that she was confused or drugged or whatever when she has stated specifics (even to the point of name her attackers in the actual sexual act)? Either it happened the way she said it did or something else. In the end she is the prosecutions weak link and I believe it will be her stated account to police that will end up having this case thrown out.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#131)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:17:02 AM EST
    kellcat
    On the one hand, Baker says he never heard of the 20-man rape allegation, then he says it was overheard as half of a cell phone conversation made by a specific sergeant who wasn't on the case.
    Reread the story. Baker says that the overheard cel conversation was the source for "she changed her story". Day's source, if it even exists, for the rape by "20 men" is unknown. Baker says he has no knowledge from where it came from, and doesn't believe it came from the Durham police, presumably those who actually investigated the case and/or talked to the AV.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#132)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:24:49 AM EST
    I think this is the worst case scenario for everyone if it is concluded a rape occurred but she can't make a correct identification because of her intoxication especially if it is involuntary.
    It wouldn't be so terrible for the guilty parties, who would avoid punishment. It probably wouldn't be that terrible for their friends who kept silent to protect them from having their lives ruined. It would be pretty terrible for the victim.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#133)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:29:48 AM EST
    Your comment about supporting evidence is on point. None of this matters if DNA proves that Finnerty and Seligmann raped her. If the DNA evidence isn't there, and Seligmann's alibi is, would you find her observations credible?
    She tells her story, DNA backs it up - conclusion: she was not too impaired to be deemed a credible witness. She tells her story, No DNA corroboration - conclusion: she was too impaired to be deemed a credible witness. Does that make sense? Does her abilty to recall the incident change when there is no DNA evidence or is it some people's opinion of her credibilty that changes?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#134)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:37:22 AM EST
    Her ability to recall the incidence is paramount. Because in all frankness the SANE account is then inconsequential. That account doesn't tell who,what,where,when then she has to. You don't get a do over in this kind of thing just because the evidence doesn't support you. Should you? and no I don't find her credible by her own account.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#135)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:40:27 AM EST
    I think this is the worst case scenario for everyone if it is concluded a rape occurred but she can't make a correct identification because of her intoxication especially if it is involuntary.
    What if she won't make a correct identification? Like I said upthread, I have no problem believing that she had injuries consistent with rape (ICWR), but it is becoming more and more difficult for me to believe that the Duke guys inflicted those injuries. So, if she does have ICWR and they didn't occur at the Duke house, when did they occur? I'm starting to wonder if, if she does have ICWR, that they may have been inflicted before she arrived at the Duke house.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#136)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:50:13 AM EST
    Totaly off subject, but just kind of struck me as funny, go here and check out the picture of the DA, man I would be ticked if I was him...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#137)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:51:33 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, Thanks for the article. One issue I would have with it is that it studies cases that have been sent to the FBI. I would think that cases that are more easily proven never get sent to the FBI so they would only have examples that are difficult to solve anyway.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#138)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:55:41 AM EST
    We have way too many CSI fans posting on this site. Read the testimony of real cases and you'll find that finding DNA evidence is like winning the lottery for the prosecution. It's great when you can find it, if you're lucky enough to. Absence of DNA evidence means very little. The wounds tell us something happened. The lame 'wall of silence' confirms that something happened.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#139)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:57:19 AM EST
    Jlv
    Excellent article on false rape allegations:
    McElroy is another conservative/liberarian "feminist" who has a home on Fox. She uses the term "false rape claims" like Bush broadly claimed Sadaam "had WMDs" to imply Sadaam had nuclear weapons. The alleged figures by Scheck that 20% of FBI DNA tests were unable to confirm that semen was that of an alleged suspect indicated a mis-identified assailant, not that no rape occurred. McElroy dishonestly clouded that point. Scheck makes clear that the FBI only performed DNA tests when the identity of the assailant was not otherwise known (no date rape cases) and when semen in the vagina or anus would almost certainly identify the assailant. So almost all of these were cases where a rape most probably occurred but the identity of the assailant was in doubt.
    It must be stressed that the sexual assault referrals made to the FBI ordinarily involve cases where (1) identity is at issue (there is no consent defense), (2) the non-DNA evidence linking the suspect to the crime is eyewitness identification, (3) the suspects have been arrested or indicted based on non-DNA evidence, and (4) the biological evidence (sperm) has been recovered from a place (vaginal/rectal/oral swabs or underwear) that makes DNA results on the issue of identity virtually dispositive.
    Scheck To provide perspective, the FBI reports generally that 9% of rape claims are false although how they arrive at that I'm not sure. I've also seen reference to Canadian Provincial statistics, who do keep track of false claims, of 5-6% false rape claims. With Fox you always have to look behind their stories. Plus McElroy has her own baggage.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#140)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:04:36 AM EST
    I disagree with azbballfan's statement. I think violent attacks have a much better chance of finding DNA evidence (three different people..small space, violence involved). And that not finding any says just as much as finding them. It wasn't like she took a shower and changed her clothers before she saw that nurse.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#141)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    My wife asked me why I was so obsessed with this case - while my niece attends Duke, I don't have "a dog in this fight." However, upon reflection, what really bothers me about this case is that the DA violated a fundamental rule that all of us have learned - if you jump to conclusions too quickly, you're going to get burned. As I mentioned yesterday, as an academic, our stock in trade is trashing articles written by other academics - and the universal knife is to carve-up someone's study because their experimental design is flawed. This typically means they failed to consider alternative hypotheses (so-called internal and external validity threats) and thus, the results of the experiments may or may not be consistent with the hypotheses proposed by the author. In the context of this case, the problem really stems from the DAs initial assumption that the AV had to be telling the truth and thus, she must have been raped by members of the team. While he may be right, his method is absolutely wrong - which is why there is so much confusion about this case. For example, what he should have done is consider that either the AV or the players are lying and investigated both parties. But, it's clear that this didn't happen. Nifong immediately claimed that a crime had been committed and that he would prove the players did it. Once he made this decision - to focus only on proving the players' guilt, he fell into the trap that all of us have experienced - seeking out only confirming evidence and discounting or not even trying to find dis-confirming evidence. Why do I say this? Well, let's consider the following items: 1. The police evidently did not press the AV for details about the alleged rape. For example, were condoms used, were foreign objects used, etc. While she may not have remembered, it appears that the DA was taken by surprise when the State Forensics lab did not find any matches. Nifong publicly stated he was confident the DNA would be conclusive. Instead, we now await a second round of testing, which may focus on trace amounts of DNA (perhaps from under her fingernails) which may not be conclusive of anything. 2. The DA obviously did not investigate the AV's history. If he had done so, he would have found out about the previous rape charge. Instead, he was left to say that it might not be admissible as evidence (which may be true - but, it indicates that he didn't know about it before hand). Wouldn't it be standard operating procedure to ask the complainant if s/he has ever filed a police report before? If you found that the AV didn't follow-up on the previous rape claim, wouldn't this cause you to hesitate before going public? 3. More evidence that the DA didn't investigate the AV is that he was apparently unaware of her previous hospitalization. While I have family members who have been hospitalized for mental illness (and who are now, fortunately, healthy again), I have seen first-hand how people you love can distort the truth. It doesn't mean they can't ever be reliable witnesses, but if you know this about someone, you have to pause and wonder. You don't go public with the AV's story and claim it's true - that's unfair to the public, the AV, and the accused. 4. The DA didn't know about the "20 guys" report - which we can only assume came from an officer who was originally on the scene. Wouldn't normal police procedure involve talking with the officers' who initially found the AV? While this may have been "mis-communication," wouldn't this give you pause before making public statement about the fact that a crime had been committed? While the Durham Police is now engaged in CYA activities, the point is that an officer obviously heard her make some statements like this...and if the officer is the same one who met Kim at the Kroger's, it's not unreasonable to question the veracity of the AV's assertion. Shoot - Kim didn't believe it or act in a manner consistent with this assertion. She wanted help in getting the AV out of her car. The point is, wouldn't a reasonable person wait to check-out the information? 5. Despite their assertions about making the case a priority, how is it that the Durham Police didn't canvass the neighborhood and ask anyone if they saw or heard anything on that night? The neighbor actually had the call the police to report what he saw and heard. Maybe I've watched too many Law and Order re-runs, but isn't canvassing the neighborhood standard operating procedure for the police? Yet, before this was done, the DA was convinced there was a crime - so who cares about what anybody else saw or heard! 6. As a follow-up to point 5, what about the cabbie? Why didn't the police know that the players used cabs? According to the cabbie, this happened often. How hard is to make a phone call to the cab company and ask if any pick-ups occurred that night? 7. The DA didn't want to talk with defense attorneys about any exculpatory evidence. Why not? Can anyone give any reason why he would not want to avoid making a mistake? This is a classic example of not wanting to find any dis-confirming evidence - his mind was made-up and he didn't want to be troubled with any uncomfortable facts. 8. The line-up....geez, if you don't want to be disappointed with bad news, why not make it impossible for the AV to identify someone who wasn't at the party. We've discussed this too much already....but, how can Nifong possible not know the problems with witness ID and the guidelines for lineups - he has only worked in the DAs office for more than two decades. His actions here really make it difficult for a conviction to occur. Without DNA or a corroborating witness, the AV's ID is the only piece of evidence that can make a conviction - if the jury questions this....we are left with a SANE nurse report that a rape may have occurred, but we aren't able to convict anyone! I'm sure that there are other things that can be added to the list.....but it's clear that Nifong is either incompetent and/or politically motivated. He, of course, may get the right outcome in this case, despite all of his bumbling. (Even a broken watch tells the right time twice a day). But, his method is very scary - there was no reason (other than the election) to make public statements and even to indict at this point. Unfortunately, we are all the losers because of his actions.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#142)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:15:05 AM EST
    mmyy, I agree the Durham police have really messed up, but I don't have any version of the truth. I wish I knew what it was and I'm not sure we ever will. kitkat, I also wonder about the DNA. I am curious as to why the results were implied to be negative and were actually not conclusive. That's a big difference from being excluded. I have two thoughts I guess. One, I don't think those guys would dream of risking disease from a stranger (and a stripper at that) so I would think they would use condoms. But then that seems to be a premeditated act and I don't think this is what that was. IF it happened I think it would be more spur of the moment than that. Bob, if I said something about a 7 inch heel, it must have been a typo. I have only heard 6 inches (do they make heels that big?). Something is odd to me about that shoe. I will admit to some drunken parties and I have many times taken off my shoes. I could see a drunk person, especially a dancer, kicking off both her shoes but I just can't believe she spent at least 40 minutes walking on one shoe. Not from alcohol anyway. And where is that shoe now??

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#143)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:15:25 AM EST
    Impairment can be caused by many factors and various combinations of factors - alcohol use, drug use, lack of sleep, physical trauma, emotional trauma, Different forms of impairment can have varied effects on memory. Severe stress can cause one to barely recall a traumatic event and cause another to remember the event "like a movie being replayed in their head." Certain drugs cause memory lapse while others can heighten one's awareness of events. Victims of drug facilitated sexual assault vary from total recall of attack to total lack of recall. IF this was a drug facilitated sexual assault, she could have been lucid at the time of the attack - she claims she was fighting for her life - and the drug took full effect later - "passed out drunk" at Krogers. I'm sure many people, while drinking, have had the experience of remembering the earlier part of an evening better than the latter. Drugs and alcohol combined with emotional trauma could explain her behavior - trying to go back into the house to get her purse after she had been raped *- not being able to tell Kim where she lived, going from "passed out drunk" to having to be pryed out of Kim's car (if that story is true), shaking, crying uncontrollably at the hospital. *btw, the story of her trying to go into the house at 12:30 is something the defense has offered. The photos don't show her knocking on the door or trying the door knob, they show her with her back turned to the door, headed off the porch. Nothing in those photos (despite Dan Abrams "demure smile" characterization) shows she could not be stumbling out of the house just after being raped.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#144)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:16:02 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    Totaly off subject, but just kind of struck me as funny, go here and check out the picture of the DA, man I would be ticked if I was him...
    hahaha, Dan Abrams might describe Nifong as having showing "a demure smile."

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#145)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:34:59 AM EST
    Hicht et al, Suppose the new DNA tests come back and identify three different guys who were at the party. Her credibility is shot at identification is shot, but that doesn't mean the DA can't dismiss charges against Seligmann and Finnerty and then indict the matching men. She said she was raped, their DNA is there, so credibility for the rape is back on track and the DNA has done the identification. The problem comes if there is no matching DNA.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#146)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:41:30 AM EST
    Teresa, if my college days are any indication, many college guys habitually carry a condom in their wallet "just in case," however I agree with your assessment that a premeditated plan to rape a stripper is far-fetched.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#147)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:48:34 AM EST
    Pat posted:
    For example, what he should have done is consider that either the AV or the players are lying and investigated both parties.
    Nifong's belief, very early on, that a rape occured in that house may have come about like this: ***I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS UP*** He reads the S.A.N.E. report. It appears some kind of sexual activity took place fairly recent to the time of the exam. He reads the police interview of the three captains. "No sex took place." He then speaks to the nurse examiner who attended to the accuser. He asks her opinion on the severity of the trauma to her vaginal and anal areas. Is this what you normally see in a rape kit exam? She answers that they usually do not see any injury with the naked eye and sometimes not even with the scope. She considers this severe vaginal and anal trauma. He asks how fresh these injuries appeared to be. She says they were probably inflicted within six hours of the examination that took place at 3:00 a.m. He asks closer to 9:00 p.m. midnight or 3:00a.am.? She replies, in her opinion, closer to midnight. He asks if they had occured around 9:00 p.m. would the injured woman likely show up for a dancing engagement, three hours later, where she was expected to, at the least, dance for two hours. The nurse answers highly unlikely. She would be in too much pain. Are the results of the exam consistent with what the accuser was able to tell you happened to her? Yes. A search of the party house yields her cell phone, make bag w/ ID, and the false fingernails she claimed she lost as she struggled to breathe. A meeting is arranged to interview the other members of the team. They cancel the meeting a few hours before it is scheduled to take place. What if this is the information he was going on?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#148)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:58:06 AM EST
    Teresa, I thought you said 7-inch heel, but really, it doesn't matter. She had one shoe on, one shoe off for a period of at least forty minutes (I don't think we know anything about her footwear before midnight). Can anyone imagine wearing one shoe forty minutes for any reason?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#149)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:02:11 AM EST
    Orinoco, there you go again. :) I haven't met any true believers on this site. Some of us argue that this incident could have happened. That's what makes this case fun (at the expense of those really suffering which makes me feel bad).

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#150)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:02:25 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Can anyone imagine wearing one shoe forty minutes for any reason?
    I can think of two or three.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#151)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:02:29 AM EST
    Even without the time-stamped photographic evidence from the cell phone, the timeline is rather fixed and Seligman's alibi rather solid. ----------------------- WITNESS: 11:30 Bissey, after being out for a while, returns to his apartment. Several young men are gathered near the back door of 610 Buchanan. WITNESS: 11:50 Bissey, on his porch, notices two women walk to the back of the house, where a man greets them. WITNESS: 12:00 Bissey sees the two women go into the house. CELL PHONE: 12:07 Seligman makes cell phone call CELL PHONE: 12:09 Seligman makes cell phone call CELL PHONE: 12:11 Seligman makes cell phone call CELL PHONE: 12:14 Seligman calls On Time Taxi CELL PHONE: 12:19 Seligman enters cab 1.5 blocks from house ATM PHOTO: 12:24 Seligman at ATM WITNESS 12:20 to 12:30 Bissey hears voices in the alley beside the house. At least two men are discussing money, one saying, "It's only $100." Bissey sees a man leaning into the window of a car parked outside the house. One of the women he saw earlier gets out of the car and says she needs to get her shoe. She walks to the back door of the house. WITNESS: Between 12:45 and 1:00 Bissey sees a car, which at least one of the women had been in earlier, speed away. One man standing across from the house, on the Duke campus, shouts, "Thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt." Several men come out of the house; Bissey hears at least one of them say, "Guys, let's go," repeatedly. Within minutes, there is silence. The lights at 610 Buchanan are dim, and no one is outside. 911 CALL: 12:53 An unidentified woman calls 911 and says a man near 610 Buchanan called her and a friend a racial slur. Now confirmed that 2nd stripper 'Kim' made the call. POLICE: 12:55 Police arrive and see evidence of a party at the house, but no stragglers. No one answers the door, and police can't find the woman who called 911. POLICE: 1:06 police leave. 911 CALL: 1:22 A security guard calls 911, reporting that a woman is in a parked car at the Kroger grocery store on Hillsborough Road and won't get out. The guard says the woman appears to be intoxicated and is hardly speaking or moving. POLICE: 1:32 police arrive at Kroger. UNCONFIRMED: AV innitially taken to mental health/substance abuse center. UNCONFIRMED: AV arrives at Duke Medical Center sometime after 2:30 AM.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#152)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:03:36 AM EST
    iho: whoa no way would the nurse give a time for those injuries. How in the world would you make that kind of judgement. Even with dead bodies they only give an approximate time. I think there is more forensic evidence done with dead bodies than live ones. Wouldn't there be a whole host of issues with that given the area and not to be gross but isn't there more blood flow in certain parts of the body so we don't heal as fast/slow in all areas of the body? her general health would impact, blood pressure, drugs she might have been on. if she was drunk ect. i think a defensive attorney would have a field day.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#153)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:08:17 AM EST
    I can think of two or three.
    What are they? I can see taking off both shoes but just one? Pretend you are walking that way. It is odd to me that we have heard how disoriented she was and how bad the show was but have we heard anyone from the defense talk about her being without a shoe that long? That would be very memorable to me. Even the girls that went on tv to tell the guys' versions of the money under the door, etc., didn't mention that. Unless I just missed it.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#154)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:12:12 AM EST
    kitkat said, "She was lucid enough after the fact to state specifics: time, people, acts involved." Which is true, but the lucidity came days later. From the comments of others it appears that the police were unable to get a statement from her for two days. That is a very long time between a crime and a statement. The best time to get a statement is immediately after a crime. People are trained to get statements from rape victims. The AV apparently wouldn't or couldn't cooperate. What was her mental state for two days that prevented her from giving a statement to police? Was she in a state of shock? It was my understanding that she was released from the hospital sometime on the 14th. Is that right? Was she having flashbacks of the 1994 rape? If she was, would that somehow color or even poison a true recollection of events? Was she having a recurrence of whatever caused her psychiatric hospitalization a year ago? Avoiding giving a statement for two days, or being incapable of giving one, does not bode well for the AV's version of events holding up in court.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#155)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:17:43 AM EST
    Inmy: It's possible - I'm not sure how well someone can specify the timing of injuries - but there wasn't any need to rush - Further, wouldn't you want to check-out the story of someone who is involved in sexual activities on an on-going basis. A set-up is not unknown. In point of fact, she didn't dance for very long. Further, she couldn't account for all of her whereabouts - the initial police report said "passed-out drunk." The police report (assuming what we have read is the report) is pretty loose. No timeline details are provided. Why not wait for gaps in the time-line to be filled-in and the DNA results to come-in before claiming that a crime has been committed?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#156)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:26:30 AM EST
    Bob, Teresa, IMHO, et. al. Re: The credibility of the AV and the shoe, Part 3 Here is more on the shoe. In two of my previous posts I discussed at length the fact that the AV loses one shoe in three minutes and then walks around lopsided with one shoe on and one shoe off for the next half hour. Most seemed to agree that it indicated she was impaired, since the logical thing to do would be just take the other shoe off. Look at the 12:03 photo of the white shoe she lost on the floor dancing. It has a strap that goes entirely around the ankle which would have to be buckled to secure it. Apparently she did not buckle it correctly, because if it were fully buckled it would be very difficult to remove that kind of shoe or even lose it just by accident. In other words when she was putting that shoe on -- before the party -- she was already impaired or clumsy or both. Then somebody dropped her off at the party, a half hour late, near midnight, on a Monday. Who does one call for this sort of favor at midnight on a Monday? A friend or a boyfriend? Had she just partied and/or perhaps done drugs with them? Had she just had sex? By all accounts I've read she also arrived already wearing her stripper outfit, in itself considered unprofessional. Why did she arrive that way? Was she in a rush to get dressed for the stripper job at the party, forgetting that she was not supposed to dress for it until she got there? She was dropped off by someone unknown, late, near midnight, on a Monday, wearing her stripper outfit and a loose shoe. Taken together it just seems odd, and where something seems odd there is often an interesting reason for it. Any thoughts?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#157)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:29:57 AM EST
    Not completely off subject: Some of you have talked about Tucker Carlson and others discussing this case. Another couple of posts talked about an unflattering picture of Nifong. During the OJ Simpson trial, Time Magazine ran a cover photo of Simpson that was tinted darker. The cable networks went wall-to-wall essentially slandering him and when any exculpatory information came up at trial generally ignored it. I stopped watching when I realized that they never talked about actual testimony at the trial during the day. I'm curious if any of you followed that trial, what subset actually listened or watched the actual trial and how many got their information from the talking heads at night. Geraldo Rivera and that guy who was in those Beethoven dog movies were not disinterested parties. I thank those who watch Carlson et al on the tube and report back on the Duke case, but it's sort of like being grateful for people who taste the food to see which dish isn't poisoned. I find most television commentary taking me farther away from the truth.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#158)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:46:25 AM EST
    It's possible - I'm not sure how well someone can specify the timing of injuries - but there wasn't any need to rush - Further, wouldn't you want to check-out the story of someone who is involved in sexual activities on an on-going basis.
    I think this comment by Pat is why the delay in taking the official statement on the 16th. I would bet they checked on her story with the agency and with Kim before they went any further.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#159)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:50:31 AM EST
    SLOphoto, Your post on the shoe shows us how little we actually know about events that night. I don't have the photos in front of me or saved on my computer, so I'll have to take your word about the construction of the shoe. There are plenty of reasons to take off a shoe. She could have damaged the heel walking into the house, for example. But then why not take off both shoes, as Teresa asks. IMHO says he can think of a couple reasons why she walked around with one shoe for forty minutes and I'm willing to entertain them. Showing up in provocative dress instead of changing at the Buchanan house may indicate that the AV wasn't very practiced at the art of stripping. She may have had a previous engagement. She may have been late and decided to save time by wearing her outfit. I'm not sure what it means. We really don't have too much evidence regarding the AV's sobriety prior to the party. Much earlier in the evening she went shopping with her father. We know that the attendees apparently claim that she was drunk or high when she arrived. To counter that we have Roberts' saying that she was fine and then later the AV was "glassy-eyed." It's not impossible that the AV was high and Roberts didn't notice or that the AV was making a pretense of acting sober. I don't recall Roberts saying how long it was between alright and glassy-eyed. For that matter, we don't know for sure what time they entered the house and started dancing (older threads have discussed the 11:30 arrival alternative). Right now it's all speculation. I imagine the defense attorneys are trying to get hold of the escort service's schedules for that night.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#160)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:51:46 AM EST
    This thread is full, here's a new one to continue the debate.

    Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actions | 159 comments (159 topical)