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Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:44:17 AM EST
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Colin Finnerty's May 18 hearing in the Duke Lacrosse case has been continued to mid-June because the DA hasn't finished providing discovery. I suspect Reade Seligman's will be as well.

Durham's mayor wants some answers on the recently released Duke police report saying the accuser had credibility issues.

I don't know if there's more news in the case, but with 183 comments on yesterday's thread, it's time for a new one.

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    • Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued | 203 comments (203 topical)
    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:01:11 PM EST
    Well, JM, this interested me:
    Duke Dean of Students Sue Wafiolek is named in the Duke report as the liaison between Duke police and administrators.
    Wafiolek said information on the accuser's credibility came to her straight from Duke police who said they got it from Durham police.
    "I was specifically told because of those inconsistencies and because of some past experiences that she had had with the police, that she may not be a credible witness," Wafiolek told NBC17.
    [my bolds] I wonder what the timing of researching the AV's past experiences with the police was? Pre or Post Nifong's commitment to pursue the case? Pre or post opinion that the AV was "not important?" etc.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:03:27 PM EST
    Okay, I'll start the new thread with something so frivolous I've been afraid to post: am I the only one who keeps flashing on that scene in Bringing Up Baby where Katharine Hepburn is walking around on one heel? SLO, I wondered about that ankle strap myself--it's not like it was a mule or slide. Maybe the buckle was broken? Missing that prong part? And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:03:46 PM EST
    Going back to the last thread..... Pat, excellent post. Nifong has bothered me the most about this case. In addition to your statements, either the Durham Sun or N&O stated that Nifong contacted them and insisted that they write the story about the DNA tests, which we all know started the media storm. Whether a rape occurred or not, Nifong's actions are reprehensible. In conversations with over 30 present or former Asst. DAs or Asst. AGs from various jurisidictions, all have told me they were disgusted with Nifong's behavior. (most are democrats too). It was intimated in a couple of conversations with some NC attorneys that a grievence may be filed with the NC Bar. Also, most said their jurisdictions have internal guidelines against speaking about a case before trial, let alone during an investigation. I wonder what the Durham DA guidelines are? Doesn't matter since Nifong did not even follow the line-up guidelines. Those that don't think Nifong's public comments and interviews were selfish and politically motivated are in deep denial of the obvious. IMHO: Your Nifong theory is a possibility and in fact may have occurred that way, however, it still does not justify all the public statements, appearances and opinions made by Nifong at the genesis of the matter. Nifong selfishly and needlessly jeoparidized a potentially legitimate rape claim when he should have let the investigation run its course. Most prosecutors ask the investigators to explore percieved or potential weaknesses in their case. I wonder what follow-up Nifong asked of his investigators.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, I think the guy was so wrought up about the election he didn't stop to consider anything else. Here he's slaved away in the DA's office for 20+ years, he's finally appointed top dog, and now he's seeing his chances of re-election slipping away cause he'll have to split the white vote with Freda Black (maybe some history with her? there seems to have been controversy about her campaign) Then this "perfect storm" case falls in his lap. He just had to go for it. And even if somehow it's proved w/o doubt that the girl made the whole thing up, which seems unlikely, a large portion of the community will still remember him as the champion of the downtrodden.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:11:36 PM EST
    Posted by Bob In Pacifica
    Showing up in provocative dress instead of changing at the Buchanan house may indicate that the AV wasn't very practiced at the art of stripping.
    Yes, Bob, it may well indicate that. But then that in itself raises the delicate question of what does she usually do on her 3-times-per-week, one-on-one escort jobs if she is not doing stripping?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#6)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:12:00 PM EST
    Good points SLO. I looked and the highest heel shoe I have is less than 2 inches. I put on one shoe and walked around the house. lol, my dogs started barking at me I looked so stupid. I couldn't get drunk enough to leave the other shoe on. In all of the stories about how awful the women were, why haven't they talked about that? I've never been drugged up so maybe that is why she did it but it makes no sense to me. Didn't Bissey say that she was walking fine down the alley to the back door? He hasn't mentioned that when she walked back to the house after the apology that she only had on one shoe has he? That would be too hard to miss. I'm starting to think the shoe picture at 12:00 doesn't even matter. Maybe she has both shoes off at that point.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:16:52 PM EST
    Posted by Del
    Maybe the buckle was broken? ... And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.
    Maybe so. But it seems like a poor judgment call -- i.e. impaired judgment -- to go to a 2 hour professional dancing assignment wearing what you know to be a defective shoe.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:17:30 PM EST
    It was a strip show, maybe the shoes were the first to go :)

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:19:37 PM EST
    It was a strip show, maybe the shoes were the first to go :)
    Shoes are the only things that never go, in my experience...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#10)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:23:11 PM EST
    Shoes are the only things that never go, in my experience...
    lol, I was just getting ready to ask if anyone would admit to the normal timing of the shoes. If this was more a sex show than a stripper show, would she still leave 6 inch heels on? Did Bissey ever say how she was clothed when she arrived? I thought he said conservatively. Is that just a rumor soon to be fact on the internet?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:23:42 PM EST
    Bob in P wrote:
    Showing up in provocative dress instead of changing at the Buchanan house may indicate that the AV wasn't very practiced at the art of stripping.
    It may very well indicate that she came from a previous engagement as well....calling into question her wounds. Time to investigate. Having been to a fair share of stag parties (even in Durham), I cannot recall a dancer EVER showing up without the need to change. It indicates something....

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#12)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:26:20 PM EST
    The Fox reporter stated last week that the private lab has asked for more time. If that's true, wonder if that is the reason for discovery delay? Dang, that's a long time to wait for leaks on any evidence the DA has (or doesn't have).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:28:16 PM EST
    If this was more a sex show than a stripper show, would she still leave 6 inch heels on?
    These girls had only known each other for a few minutes. In my (limited) experience, strippers acceding to encouragement to do a "sex show" perform a fairly benign and mostly faux exercise. And yes, they kept their shoes on. :)

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#14)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:31:54 PM EST
    With regard to Nifong, does anyone remember the Washington DC DA (well, AAG actually) taking a swipe at him when asked about Finerty? He said 'unlike prosecutors in North Carolina, we don't comment on [pending cases]". So he isn't viewed well in DC either. She doesn't have much credibility and I have a serious concern that he was 1. acting police chief per his statements 2. DA and 3. candidate. Essentially #1 and #2 are big issues. While the DA does investigate he/she shouldn't be able to essentially run the police investigation and ignore police policy. He can now say that, since he was acting police chief (remember the chief was with his sick mother for awhile and Nifong conveniently 'stepped in' at this trying moment) that he can *change policy*. Ergo, the lineup can stand. It seems his conflict is more of a police/DA role than the candidate/DA role although all 3 are factors. And yes, the woman has little credibility. I doubt this trial is worth taking to court at this point, given that obtaining a conviction appears next to impossible at this point. Of course, that's said without knowing all the discovery, which Nifong has conveniently put off for awhile... If something 'good' existed Nifong would have leaked it by now. It seems that he is having to deal with issues he never expected, ie, the past gangrape claim,the hospitalization, etc.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:34:38 PM EST
    Bob,
    The problem comes if there is no matching DNA.
    I don't agree with that part. Lack of DNA by itself is not a problem. It will be problem only if Seligmann's potential alibi or another crucial fact really conflicts her story. Before seeing DA's timeline and victim's detailed story, at this moment I don't buy the alibi.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#16)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:36:35 PM EST
    Bob, Thanks for the post about how lame it is to quote the media in the blogsphere. The media loves to distort facts in order to keep a story alive. "This just in! Local news says it has evidence that the Duke players are innocent!" Per the media rulebook is to be followed two days later with: "This just in! Local news says it has evidence tht the Duke players are guilty!" To be followed by: "The local DA, Nifong has proved that he is incompetent." And all they do is report heresay without any facts. The ridiculous reporting on the May 8th Duke report is another example.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#17)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:36:52 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    IMHO says he can think of a couple reasons why she walked around with one shoe for forty minutes and I'm willing to entertain them.
    I was more specific, I said I could think of two or three reasons why she may have walked around with only one shoe on for 40 minutes. Two of them I am 100% sure of, the third 90%.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#18)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:41:13 PM EST
    Hi Del, You posted:
    SLO, I wondered about that ankle strap myself--it's not like it was a mule or slide. Maybe the buckle was broken? Missing that prong part? And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.
    I was going to post the same. Someone suggested she may have been too drunk to buckle it properly before the party. I thought it could have broken as soon as she started to dance or may have been broken before she got there.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#19)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:43:56 PM EST
    As for her 'illness' it is definately not a 'nervous breakdown' given that no such diagnosis exists and her past behavior indicates that she has emotional issues. She probably has a mood disorder, ie, bipolar disorder. (I have bipolar disorder btw and it's completely controllable and shouldn't be viewed as a stigma). If she did have such a diagnosis her behavior at the party may have not been a cause of drugs but of some mania, alcohol, and medication. The alcohol part is sort of scary given that she shouldn't be drinking and has a history of getting in trouble when doing so (stealing car and almost hitting cop, this one probably too). Heavy drinking will really aggrevate such a disorder, which I can attest to. I don't think her inpatient care should be a factor - Kobe Bryant's accuser also had bipolar disorder - *unless* it is something like schizoaffective disorder, bipolar mood type. That's hallucinations, etc but very manageable - seem sort of normal. You'd need an antipsychotic as well as lithium/depakote/lamictal/whatever to function well. I do hope she gets some help with the drinking and also that if she needs medication she's taking it. Something that's not noted, though, is that if her 'breakdown' as caused by stress (which again I can attest to happening to me) then she may have been prescribed an anxiolytic on a long term basis - such as Xanax or Klonopins. If she kept drinking her behavior at that party would be consistent. Of course that's all hypothetical but she does have some sort of disorder and I'd hope that she has that worked out. As a side note to someone in the last thread saying that Duke PD has no authority at the residence, that's somewhat deceptive. They do have authority in that it is Duke property. Durham has primary responsibility but Duke can intervene. Duke can also choose to issue charges for violations on their property... Duke stands a good chance of being sued as it is their property anyway, which gets little notice.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#20)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    Jason Bissey, who lives next door to the university-owned house, said Thursday that he had a clear view of the accuser's arrival and that she did not appear to be impaired. He said he saw her walk up a long alley to the rear of the lacrosse house, then talk to the other woman hired to dance before entering the home. "They were both totally lucid. [The accuser] was not impaired in any way, I remember clearly," Bissey said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up."
    Her shoe must have been fine when she arrived.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:50:51 PM EST
    she may have been prescribed an anxiolytic on a long term basis - such as Xanax or Klonopins. If she kept drinking her behavior at that party would be consistent.
    This was my comment a few days ago, but I've been informed by other posters here that she had finished taking her meds. The source of that info, I believe, was the ever-quotable, ever-questionable, father of the AV.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#22)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:51:32 PM EST
    Orinoco, ----- The lack of DNA was brushed aside by Nifong although he drove it..and then said '70-80 percent' of rape cases had no DNA evidence. WRONG IN THIS CASE. He is using AGGREGATE RAPE statistics, not those involving three attackers. While a meaningful statistic would be difficult, the percent would be far lower (compiling such stats is difficult because of the low frequency of such rapes). Of course, no one anywhere has pointed this out. Not the local media, not the national media, and not the friendly blogs. Not even the redstate patriotboys. --------- I live in the area and don't have a high regard for Durham in general. It's not exactly a safe place to walk around (certain parts) and has some real gang problems (which Nifong avoided by getting onto this fast). The election was supposed to be about gang violence and the rate at which crimes were cleared etc. Instead all that was ignored which is sad. It's sad because the DA is having to devote a great deal of time on this case which he shouldn't be - he's a manager, not a trial lawyer anymore. Durham has plenty of capable ADAs who could prosecute this case and allow him to tackle some of the other issues. It's just...depressing. Durham needs to clean itself up and stop the race politics which are not at all helpful. (the city manager likes to play that card to, although not so much in this case albeit he is a strong defender). I would, however, like the police chief to make a public statement. I do have a good deal of respect for him - he is competent and sincere. I hope his mother is doing better.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#23)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:52:02 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    In addition to your statements, either the Durham Sun or N&O stated that Nifong contacted them and insisted that they write the story about the DNA tests, which we all know started the media storm.
    Kali, do you have a source for this? Kalidoggie posted:
    IMHO: Your Nifong theory is a possibility and in fact may have occurred that way, however, it still does not justify all the public statements, appearances and opinions made by Nifong at the genesis of the matter. Nifong selfishly and needlessly jeoparidized a potentially legitimate rape claim when he should have let the investigation run its course.
    I didn't make it up as a justification for the public statements, etc. I was trying out a theory that could explain his decision that a sexual assault occurred in that house. My point is how can we declare him over zealous, a whoring politician, or stark raving mad, when we do not know what information he had and when he had it?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:53:03 PM EST
    Kim says she was not impaired upon arrival, neigbour says she was not impaired upon arrival. Another lie from defense attorneys. But forget it lets just focused on accuser's story and make wild speculation to find her gaps.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Teresa, thanks again for being a good sport and trying to see how the shoe thing might or might not actually work.
    Didn't Bissey say that she was walking fine down the alley to the back door [when she first arrived] ? Jason Bissey ... said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up." Her shoe must have been fine when she arrived.
    But as she is leaving, the 12:30 photo clearly shows her wearing only one shoe on the back porch. No one seems to explain -- alleged rape sequence and all -- how she would manage to hang on to that one shoe, and then carry it around in her hand afterwards. And then rebuckle the shoe back on when she gets to the back porch when she does not yet have the other shoe with her? Maybe so, but it still sounds pretty odd.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#26)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    I just figured out why some of y'all are talking about a six inch heel. Duh (that's my duh, y'all's duh comes later...or not... From the search warrant:
    a white six inch shoe.
    My guess is that's cop talk for a size six shoe. They could have measured the one they collected or just looked at the size. There are all kinds of exceptions, but many shoes measure to about what size they are.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#27)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:12:19 PM EST
    James posted:
    With regard to Nifong, does anyone remember the Washington DC DA (well, AAG actually) taking a swipe at him when asked about Finerty?
    He said 'unlike prosecutors in North Carolina, we don't comment on [pending cases]".
    So he isn't viewed well in DC either.
    Do you have quotes from other people in D.C. that criticize Nifong or is this one AAG the spokesperson for all of the District of Columbia?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:14:02 PM EST
    And for everybody's information: The 12:03 photo shows a white shoe, about 6 inches long, with about a three inch high heel.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:15:01 PM EST
    imho, are you suggesting that the shoes were not high-heeled (like 6" tall high heels)? probably not, and I'm sure you've seen all the pics, but here's some photos that show the shoe(s).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:17:12 PM EST
    OK, upon relooking, probably not 6", but dang tall anyway...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:19:50 PM EST
    Kind of off topic: Azbballfan have you ever heard of the concept of cognitive schemas? It's the conceptual framework that people use to make sense of the world and people around them. We take a case like this and use our own personal experiences to make judgments or decisions. It might be a good exercise to think about why we consider something to be true. For example silence to me doesn't indicate a lie. But if I was a child of divorce with a household of secrets that would be something that would become part of the way I would judge a person/situation almost unconsciously. I don't know anyone who was raped (date raped yes but not stranger rape). I tend to be someone who is logical/rational linear thinking. I'm studying forensic psy. so that leads me to be very concrete evidence (I'm not interested in all the myriad details of the case - shoes?) my problem I may be too clinical and not empathetic enough to believe this girl. It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#32)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    well, duh

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#33)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:24:01 PM EST
    James posted:
    As for her 'illness' it is definately not a 'nervous breakdown' given that no such diagnosis exists and her past behavior indicates that she has emotional issues.
    It could have been for what is called (if you are rich and famous like Mariah Carey) exhaustion. Hospitalized for exhaustion can mean many things : OD, emotional breakdown, depression, even exhaustion. Her father said she was doing too much at the time - working, going to school, taking care of her kids and was worried about some bills.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#34)
    by january on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:27:02 PM EST
    Hicht posted:
    But forget it lets just focused on accuser's story and make wild speculation to find her gaps.
    I'm not even trying to be unsympathetic to the AV, but it really doesn't seem like anybody has to speculate wildly to find gaps in her story.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:31:01 PM EST
    James, thanks for the information on bi-polar disorder. I worked at a VA Hospital thirty years ago (on staff, not as a doctor or nurse) and we handled a lot of people with psychiatric problems. I read and try to keep up with information in the field. Hicht, the problem with both Bissey's and Roberts' claims that she was sober is that they can't look into people's brains and gauge their levels of brain chemicals, alcohol and drugs. The AV could have been more sober when she arrived than later, she could have been pretty much sober. She could have been absolutely sober. It's clear that at some point that night a lot of people thought she wasn't sober. Her state of mind is an issue because she is making an accusation of felonies against three other people and at some point she couldn't walk on her own and was described as glassy-eyed and passed out drunk. That doesn't preclude a rape having occurred and it doesn't mean her story isn't correct, but pretending that her later appearance has no bearing on the case is whistling past the graveyard. Of course, it's speculation. If you haven't noticed, that's what we do here.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:32:11 PM EST
    kitkat you posted:
    It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.
    I think empathety is one of the main factors to choose side when we all heard to story first time. Some people felt empathety to accused players others to victim. Unfortunately people inclined to feel empathety to alikes (gender, race and social status).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    Hicht; while we generally feel comfortable with our in-group American culture tends to have people with multiple in-groups with ambivalent loyalty because we can always join another. it's not a bad thing just the nature of our very individualistic society. I would hypothesize that the empathy is more likely a product of experience than belong to any specific group (sex,class,gender).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    chew2 posted, The alleged figures by Scheck that 20% of FBI DNA tests were unable to confirm that semen was that of an alleged suspect indicated a mis-identified assailant, not that no rape occurred. McElroy dishonestly clouded that point. McElroy plainly states in the same article, http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt "Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary. First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent." How is that dihonest and cloudy? I don't buy the "Fair and Balanced" BS either. But, unlike a lot of the research data that's misinterpreted in the media (how do you think they did in STAT 101?), there is actually a disclaimer to go along with it.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#39)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:51:37 PM EST
    kitkat posted:
    my problem I may be too clinical and not empathetic enough to believe this girl. It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.
    My defense of the accuser does not stem from empathy or even my belief in her. I don't know if she is lying or not. For some reason, Orinoco seems to equate my correcting misstated or misleading facts about her as my stamp of approval for all she has said and done in this case. I thought I read that Nifong sat down face to face with her. If it is true, I would put a lot of stock in his assesment of her as being truthful and being a decent witness. Nifong has obviously made mistakes here, but he's no buffoon. I'd bet the attorneys that know him well are telling the attorneys that don't, "Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride." Nifong reminds me of bull in a bullfight that has two picks stuck in him. He's mad as Hell. I wouldn't want the only thing between me and a snorting Nifong to be a cape. If this doesn't fall apart soon, it is going to be very interesting.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    imho: intesting forgive me if I ask was your father someone who had a lot of authority like a judge?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:02:20 PM EST
    Well I'm off I leave you guys to figure this thing out.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:06:10 PM EST
    kitkat, I have seen a lot of cases of antipathy based on race not necessarily black and white. I am sure if there was a poll it would prove my point about empathy. By the way I agree experience is also a factor in empathetic.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#43)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:07:44 PM EST
    kitkat asked:
    imho: intesting forgive me if I ask was your father someone who had a lot of authority like a judge?May I lie down on a coach to answer?
    May I lie down on a couch to answer? My mother was a stripper and when she and my father met, he was on a university lacrosse team. It cost him twenty bucks to conceive me. But what could that have to do with my views on this case?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    kitkat
    Azbballfan have you ever heard of the concept of cognitive schemas? It's the conceptual framework that people use to make sense of the world and people around them. We take a case like this and use our own personal experiences to make judgments or decisions. It might be a good exercise to think about why we consider something to be true.
    Thank you for pointing out another service blogs serve. You'll notice that when there are people arguing cases such as these with incomplete facts, it is usually due to traumas in our pasts. It is therapeutic to post your opinions while acknowledging those traumas. Those who escalate the arguments and turn personal are usually those who need the most help. That being said, there are also those here who are just trying to share accurate descriptions of evidence to help inform each other. Thanks for the post, there has been a flurry of people now sharing their own experiences.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#45)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:50:01 PM EST
    imho
    My mother was a stripper and when she and my father met, he was on a university lacrosse team. It cost him twenty bucks to conceive me. But what could that have to do with my views on this case?
    Wow, only $20? Man your dad sure got off cheaply. This fully explains your position.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#46)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:58:45 PM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion wrote:
    I thought I read that Nifong sat down face to face with her. If it is true, I would put a lot of stock in his assesment of her as being truthful and being a decent witness. Nifong has obviously made mistakes here, but he's no buffoon.
    He may be a very shrewd judge of witness veracity, but you're begging the question. You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#47)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:00:20 PM EST
    Wow, only $20? Man your dad sure got off cheaply. This fully explains your position.
    Well, all my "uncles" were good for $20 apiece.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#48)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:06:31 PM EST
    He may be a very shrewd judge of witness veracity, but you're begging the question. You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#49)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:19:15 PM EST
    Excerpt from WRAL news report:
    City Manager Patrick Baker said Day based his report on a phone conversation he overheard being made by a Durham police sergeant. "That they put that (report) on the Web site suggests that this officer is the source of the information, I'm telling you that the officer got the information by overhearing the conversation, not even a direct conversation with any of our police officers," Baker said.
    Two questions. First, how does the City Manager know that Day based the report on statements he heard from a city cop while the cop was talking on the phone? Two: what difference does it make? If Day heard the cop say "at first she told us that she was raped by twenty guys," methinks that's a significant fact, whether or not the cop was speaking to Day.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:25:16 PM EST
    i just listened to Kim's 911 call... in addition to the alleged racial slur she mentions a white stationwagon with 'KKK' written on it. Odd.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:25:38 PM EST
    IMHO posted
    It could have been for what is called (if you are rich and famous like Mariah Carey) exhaustion. Hospitalized for exhaustion can mean many things : OD, emotional breakdown, depression, even exhaustion. Her father said she was doing too much at the time - working, going to school, taking care of her kids and was worried about some bills.
    IMHO, I've worked for over a decade in the mental health field in a variety of settings (state & private settings, outpatient, VA, Universities, Contract Reseach Organizations). People are not admitted to hospitals for exhaustion, nerves, or a nervous breakdown. These explanations are used because of the public stigma associated with mental illness as opposed to extreme physical or emotional fatigue. Clinical depression can certainly lead to inpatient hospitalization. However, the vast majority of the time it is treated on an outpatient basis; unless it is determined that the patient is at risk of harming themselves or others. People who OD can be placed in a MH or "rehab" (after the ER) for the same reason. I won't comment on Mariah's PR staff's damage control.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#52)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:27:14 PM EST
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.
    Which would be significant IF we knew that Nifong was previously tested by a similarly-compelling temptation and did not give in to it. Which doesn't seem likely. What could be bigger for a 27-year lifer in the city DA's office than being elected to the top job?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    Bob, I guess I was misunderstood in my post that you have replied. I was not trying to tell that she was not intoxicated in the party. I don't think there is too much question about that. The point that I was trying to make was; There are two versions of stories coming from two sides. In this forum or media people are trying to analyze every word that is coming from victim's mouth and try to question her credibility while they absolutely pay no attention to the story of defense lawyer. Example, defense lawyer made an argument about her impairment upon arrival to the party clearly conflicting with two eye witnesses. Nobody made any speculation about defense's credibility. On the other hand yesterday you wrote pages of posts because victim said she was scared and cried, as unlogical as it sounds arguing there isn't any photo showing her crying!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#54)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:31:59 PM EST
    wumhenry posted;
    Two questions. First, how does the City Manager know that Day based the report on statements he heard from a city cop while the cop was talking on the phone?
    Maybe the city cop told Baker, "I didn't talk to Day, but he was hanging around the loading dock when I was telling the Sargent about a girl I knew in college that told me and my roomates she was raped by twenty guys." wunhenry posted:
    Two: what difference does it make? If Day heard the cop say "at first she told us that she was raped by twenty guys," methinks that's a significant fact, whether or not the cop was speaking to Day.
    See reply to first question.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#55)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:43:59 PM EST
    Your answer to the first question doesn't really answer the question. It's more cogent when re-cycled in answer to the second question, but if Day heard a cop say that, it's a significant investigative lead, at minimum. Depending on what else Day heard the cop say in the same conversation, it may be more than that. It's is safe bet that defense lawyers will interview the cop, if they haven't already.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#56)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:06:01 PM EST
    wumhenry posted:
    Which would be significant IF we knew that Nifong was previously tested by a similarly-compelling temptation and did not give in to it. Which doesn't seem likely. What could be bigger for a 27-year lifer in the city DA's office than being elected to the top job?
    So you haven't read that he has behaved unethically in the past, either? Do you know any DAs? Their ethics are tested often. Their friends' and friends' kids' cases get dumped on their desks. It happened to Nifongs'a opponent Freda Black. Nifong got rid of Freda as soon as he was appointed DA and institued a rule prohibiting personal relationships with criminal defendants. It's known as the Freda Black rule.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#57)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:18:55 PM EST
    The Duke PD merely posted a lame speculative statement about what the AV said in order to fill out a required form and not do any more work. That's what happened. The Duke PD did not interview the AV or any of the players. The Duke PD was called because she was taken to the Duke hospital. Once you're called, you have to fill out a form. If you don't want to do any more work on the case or get into a fight over jurisdiction, then you make dismissive statements about the AV. Nifong didn't need this case to get elected. He had a commanding lead prior to this case and the official support of every important community group. What Nifong did need was to compel the players to talk to him. Therefore he allowed this story to get to the press, hoping they would respond by cooperating. Instead, they built the wall of shame. Now that school is over and the players have the opportunity to go home, Nifong has little chance of compeling testimony until when (if) they come back for next year. If Nifong has to start extraditing players from other states for subpeona's, this case will take forever.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#58)
    by Alan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:27:43 PM EST
    I'm not sure why this case has got my attention, but I've been reading these threads for a week or so, so clearly it has. The media publicity in Australia has been fairly intense, although it's fading now. The US and Australia are both common law countries, although our laws are radically different in a couple of areas. I don't know enough about the case (I think share that with most commenters) to say what happened. We should remember that the prosecution does not have to prove if a rape occurred. They have to prove if, when, how and by whom and the prosecution, not the defence, needs to meet the beyond reasonable doubt standard. It's not a good argument, for example, to say the rape kit proves rape without evidence that ties the accused to the rape. We don't know what the AV was doing before she reached the Lacrosse party and it's not completely and absolutely unknown for a victim to deal with trauma by trying to ignore it and carry on for a time as though nothing had happened. It's also not an argument to say that Nifong is a good DA who must have a case and therefore the accused are guilty. Equally, it's not an argument to say that Nifong is a lunatic and therefore the accused must be innocent. Finally, just for the record, in Australia and New Zealand both Nifong and the defence attorneys would probably be facing the serious criminal charge of contempt by publication. It doesn't happen all that often here, but elected officials and others are occasionally fined for making prejudicial statements. Both prosecution and defence have a duty to keep silent (apart from discovery) until the actual trial starts.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#60)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:48:01 PM EST
    partial transcript - up to image #8 IMAGE 4 Sgt: Did you recognize that person? Victim: He looked like Bret but I'm not sure. Sgt: Who is Bret? Victim: One of the guys that assaulted me. Sgt: One of the guys that assaulted you? Ok. Victim: Um hum.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#61)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:49:37 PM EST
    GSDfan, You quote McElroy and ask:
    "Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary. First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent." How is that dihonest and cloudy?
    Because she doesn't make clear that in the vast majority of those "false claim" cases a rape most likely occurred, it's just the identification that was mistaken. Because she then goes on use the "1 in 4 claims of rape are false" language without distinguishing between mis-identifications and the idea that no rape occurred. The "1 in 4 claims are false" language is then picked up to mean that rape didn't occur and the woman are making it up. That use is highly misleading. It's just like Bush claiming Sadaam was a "serious threat because he had WMD". He was technically correct if Sadaam had a few artilery shells filled with mustard gas. But his claim was highly misleading, because he didn't go into those crucial details and just used the general scare term WMDs. McElroy's claim is similarly misleading.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:52:46 PM EST
    AZ, everything I've read about this election said it was a "tight race" and that Freda Black was expected to win on name recognition. Even after the Duke case came out, I read that an important African-American political group endorsed Bishop.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:53:08 PM EST
    Posted by wumhenry
    You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election.
    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.
    I don't think I would call it "unethical" for Nifong to face the facts about his larger responsibilities as a community leader. Yes, he did win reelection largely on a bigger share of the black vote. As a result the role that has been thrust upon him is more than just being a routine DA in a typical rape case -- he now has to show himself as pro-active forceful about national civil rights issues and attitudes in general. Personally I'm glad Nifong won the election. A large part of the community would call anything else a coverup or a sellout. The lynch mob mentality at the NCCU forum that Nifong attended showed that. One shrill women demanded Nifong admit that taking the alleged rape victim to the Duke medical crisis center was a "conflict of interest." Seriously (!) Another demanded to know why the FBI had not been brought in (What? For 1 out of 10,000 rape allegations in the nation?), implying that Durham Police, Duke Police and the DA's office were all in on a giant conspiracy against the AV (!) Several people asserted as absolutely beyond question that if the lax players had been black, then all 47 black men would most certainly have been locked up in jail the next day -- in the year 2006. The whole thing was a screaming lynch mob. Nifong did a pretty good job trying to defuse the lynch mob, but that is what he was having to do. A rape has been alleged, a lot of people -- I mean a lot of people -- are certain that it happened, and most of those people openly want to see the lax players convicted of it. At this point those people are ready to accept nothing less. Nifong has to deal with that. He has to look no nonsense in every move he makes. People should stop being politically naive about this. This is no longer simply about true justice at all, not with these emotions raging. This is partly about settling past grievances, even if it takes lynching three more innocent men to do it. (Yes, some people have said that it would sort of make up for the past lynchings of innocent black men.) As a political reality, Nifong has to deal with that in order to try to avoid a real lynching. If ANYBODY still has enough no-nonsense credibility with that emotional lynch mob out there to be able to settle this thing down enough to avoid an outright hanging, and still get a reasonably fair hearing for everyone allegedly involved -- in my opinion it's Nifong.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#64)
    by Lora on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    Bob, Sorry to take so long to answer you from the other post. Hard to keep up. I did not say I thought she was a credible witness. I said I had no reason to believe that she wasn't. There is a difference. I maintain that there is a reasonable doubt over whether the AV was seriously impaired at the party. The defense has said she was impaired as if it were gospel. There is no proof. No tox results have been made public obviously. I doubt that you men here have worn shoes that look like the AV's. I have. The buckles can be very difficult to buckle correctly, whether straight or impaired. It is easy to think you've got it right, but then you haven't, and the thing can slip loose. It is quite possible that the one slipped loose, purely by accident, during the dance. If the dancer was scared and ran out after the offensive remarks, she wouldn't stop to grab her shoe, or take the other one off, a procedure which could take some time if it was fastened tightly. BTW, if she were very impaired, or becoming impaired at that point, I doubt she would have been able to run out, wearing only one of those high heeled shoes. Now, if they were persuaded to come back inside, again, she may have been too distracted to remove her remaining shoe. Also, it could be a real pain to get them on; maybe she figured better to wait till she recovers the missing one and put that one back on, rather than take the one off, and have to put both back on. And...I kid you not, shoes like that can be a real pain to put on. Now, if the remaining shoe were in fact fastened properly, it is quite likely to have remained on her foot during an assault. If the assault happened as she described, I doubt the men would have waited while she took off her shoe. Clearly, the pictures provided in the link (thanks SloPhoto) show she is perfectly capable of standing with one high heeled shoe on. She is compensating perfectly for the difference in height. So she is aware on some level, and definitely not too impaired to do that. That would be very hard to do if you were impaired. Her head is bent down, but that is not an indication of impairment. I recall the photo of her lying down, but I couldn't find it. Why would you assume it was due to being severely impaired? Why couldn't pain, trauma, shock etc. have caused her to lie down as well? As far as the very blurry incomplete photo of her in the car, if she were leaning way back, she could have done so from having been deposited into the car awkwardly after being helped. Or, who would want or be able to sit normally after having been assaulted vaginally and anally? Sorry, I'm not raising my hand. Remember the 911 calls? Many posters here heard sobbing, and thought it could have come from the AV. That's not being passed out. The officer's initial assessment of "passed out drunk" changed. Clearly if she gripped something and struggled to stay in the car, she was not passed out, and not too impaired to try to resist being removed from the car. He then thought, instead of drunk, she could have been mentally ill. If she had been traumatized and was in shock from what had happened to her, it is entirely possible that she might not respond to questions, she might not struggle with a difficult shoe strap, she might close her eyes and remain silent, appearing passed out, and she might not want to leave the car which could seem like a safe place to her. In short, she could have appeared either drunk or mentally ill. I say it is entirely premature to assume that she was drug and/or alcohol impaired. I believe it is the defense lawyers' attempt to discredit her in the absence of facts. I believe the pictures and her behavior are not inconsistent with trauma and/or shock.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:25:03 PM EST
    There likely are a number of Duke students right now who have a pretty good idea whether Finnerty had the opportunity within the timeframe suggested to interact with the accuser in the bathroom. They should start practicing their trial testimony now, as they don't want to come off like Eddie Haskell-types in front of the jury. You got to feel sorry for the broom joke guy, who you know is going to wear a jacket and tie for court like he did all through prep school, and might even call Nifong "sir." He's going to be pretty thoroughly and internationally McFadyened before this is over.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#66)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:28:09 PM EST
    Hicht, I think that the reason why there is much more speculation on the AV is simply because there are more bits and pieces of information regarding her that have been leaked to the press. When Finnerty and Seligmann were indicted there was a flourish of stories about them and if the third person is indicted I'm sure we'll get stories on him. However, the defense attorneys have been good at keeping a muzzle on their clients. I believe that there's a lot more interest around here in the details of the case itself as opposed to what I've heard about the talking heads on the cable networks. For instance, I don't think that the appearances of the representatives of the New Black Panther Party did anything much other than to prejudice whites against the AV. And as much as I've made critical comments and inferences regarding the AV's history, I can't say that I'd personally like to be under this kind of scrutiny. I don't think any of us would. I've been on this planet twice as long as the AV and so have a history of screwing things up twice as long. We all have our failures in life, and having them revealed during this media circus has to be awful for her.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#67)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:56:27 PM EST
    Hi GSDfan, I absolutely defer to your knowledge and experience in these matters. I have none. I think my point was - for all we know the accuser could have suffered from no more than whatever landed all these rich and famous people in the hospital, but since they are paying their own bills their diagnoses doesn't have to fall under whatever criteria the government or insurance companies require for reimbursement to the hospital for her treatment. But then again, she could have been admitted because she went stark raving mad last summer.
    Moss is 5-foot-7 and weighs an estimated 100 pounds, perhaps a few pounds less, though she says she never weighs herself. In 1998, she was hospitalized for exhaustion, and her people dismissed all rumors that "exhaustion" was a code word for heroin addiction.
    ++++++++++++
    Lindsay Lohan has been hospitalized for exhaustion yet again. Sure, the whole world believes that a healthy 18 year old girl is teetering on the brink of collapse for the second time in a six month period.
    +++++++++++
    Consider this Law & Order: Criminal Intent case closed.Series star Vincent D'Onofrio checked out of a New York hospital on Friday after being treated for exhaustion.
    +++++++++++++
    According to the BBC, soul singer Isaac Hayes was hospitalized earlier this week in Memphis. According to longtime songwriting partner David Porter, the singer is suffering from "exhaustion" brought on by overworking.
    +++++++++++++
    Tom Cruise's attorney said he is going to sue anyone who claims he is gay. In a related story, Ricky Martin's attorney has been hospitalized for exhaustion
    [gratuitiously included because I think Tom Cruise is annoying]

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#68)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:12:35 PM EST
    Lora, thanks for the reply. I come and go, and some of us posting here actually work, have families, etc., so no one can expect an immediate answer on anything here. I take your points. I think the information strongly points towards the AV being intoxicated soon after she arrived at the house. We'll have to agree to disagree. We'll find out eventually, when the discovery process comes and then yields to the trial. Right now we're all just making guesses from what we see.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#69)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:14:52 PM EST
    Inmy. Forty-five years ago, give or take, I had the lead in a school play (Cpt. Bluntschli in "Arms and The Man") By the end of the run--three whole performances--my parents were on the verge of hospitalizing me, because I was exhausted. I would fall asleep at dinner, had dropped to 165 pounds, at 6'2", and had trouble tracking. While in rehearsal, I had an adrenalin high. When the whole thing was over, I was so down I might have been diagnosed as clinically depressed, if I hadn't been spending so much time catching up on sleep--which itself is a symptom of depression. I presume professionals get used to some things and know how to pace themselves in others. I heard, more or less on topic, that some rock singers have hired voice coaches to teach them how to scream without ruining the pipes, while sounding as if they're--at the point of ruining their pipes. We had no pacing and no tricks of the trade, no stage business. I wonder how performers get "up" for the four hundredth time they sing something that requires emotion. Or a simulation. Anyway, I go along with "exhaustion", especially when it includes malnutrition, which must be happening to some of the women stars. Skinny as they look, the camera adds ten pounds. Can't be healthy. I heard d'Onofrio went loopy because Bush got elected, not because of "exhaustion".

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#70)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    IMHO, When rich people land in hospitals for "exhaustion" it's different from when low-income people land in the hospital for "exhaustion." Call your insurance provider and ask how many days of hospitalization your policy covers for "exhaustion." If he hadn't run his car into a concrete barrier Congressman Kennedy would now be hospitalized for exhaustion as opposed to his reliance on pain killers. While a poor person working too many jobs may actually be more exhausted than a rich person, they don't get to be hospitalized for it.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#71)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:25:40 PM EST
    Bob, I'm suprised there aren't more stories about the boys past and upbringing. Seligmann's father is a fairly senior executive with Standard & Poor's covering healthcare. Finnerty's father is also an analyst working for Morningstar. Both have significant influence in the New York financial world.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#72)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:28:37 PM EST
    SLOphoto posted:
    I don't think I would call it "unethical" for Nifong to face the facts about his larger responsibilities as a community leader.
    I was talking his about reputation before this case. I was asking wumhenry if they knew anything about Nifong's past that would lead them to believe he would act so unethically - pursue a dog of a case for political gain.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#73)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:33:29 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey posted:
    Anyway, I go along with "exhaustion", especially when it includes malnutrition, which must be happening to some of the women stars. Skinny as they look, the camera adds ten pounds. Can't be healthy.
    After the creedmore incident the accuser lost a tremendous amount of weight before her parents took her to a psychiatrist.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#74)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:38:12 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica:
    When rich people land in hospitals for "exhaustion" it's different from when low-income people land in the hospital for "exhaustion." Call your insurance provider and ask how many days of hospitalization your policy covers for "exhaustion."
    That is exactly my point. If a doctor thinks she requires hospitalization for exhaustion the doctor has to call it something else - something that sounds worse if used against her when her credibility comes into question.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:44:56 PM EST
    Transcript of photo lineup: IMAGE 4 "He looks like [edited] but I'm not sure." "One of the guys that assaulted me." IMAGE 5 "He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me sort." "He looks just like him without the mustache." IMAGE 7 (Reade Seligmann) "He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me." "100%" "Yes." IMAGE 40 (Collin Finnerty) "He is the guy who asaulted me." "He put his p* in my a* and my v*"

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#75)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:47:13 PM EST
    The transcript is interesting. I wonder how correct she is about who gave her the money, the guy in the khaki shorts, and the broomstick comment guy. Finnery was #40 very near the end. I guess we can quit thinking about objects now. I believe Dad just says whatever he reads in the papers or the prosecution talking heads throw out.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:18:08 PM EST
    I think it is interesting that she remembers trivial details of that night well, who wears khaki and what not. However, she appears to be very hazy on the details of the rape,
    Sounds like the captains had the same profile. Go figure.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#77)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:20:17 PM EST
    Orinoco, I wish we could see the video of it. Several of those guys look so much alike that I'm not surprised actually. I have been wondering which # Finnerty was because she started out knowing everyone it seems. She sure sounds positive about Finnerty and though she said sort of, and then 100% on Seligmann that may be understandable since she had just gotten into the actual process. It will be interesting to see which ones she is correct, or not correct, on. If I put on my accuser hat, it seems helpful that she didn't id all 3 at 100%. On Greta VS, all 3 of the analysts plus Greta said the overheard conversation on the cell phone will not be admitted. They also said the report reflects very poorly on Duke. Also, NC has no typical right to a speedy trial, they use a case management system only. There is also no trial by judge so we can quit theorizing on that also.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#78)
    by weezie on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:22:37 PM EST
    If you are trying to be admitted to a hospital and are willing to pay your own way, you can certainly cover anything up with the term exhaustion. If you want insurance to pick up the tab there has to be a diagnosis and so far, no one has been able to crack the medical privacy issues to see if she was abusing drugs. But, on the bright side, it looks like she gained all that weight back and grew into a strapping big lady once again!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#79)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:26:21 PM EST
    Orinoco, I meant to add, I don't think the lineup was meant to be very desciptive of the acts alleged, just who did what in general. Weezie, you are tacky.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#80)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:26:53 PM EST
    Teresa posted:
    The transcript is interesting. I wonder how correct she is about who gave her the money, the guy in the khaki shorts, and the broomstick comment guy. Finnery was #40 very near the end.
    There were probably plenty of khaki shorts that night, but I think I can see the reflection of khaki shorts on the back door of Kim's car. They would belong to whomever's forearm is in the the photo. Kim's car photo

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:33:25 PM EST
    imho, I'm sure you're right about the shorts. Orinoco, I probably posted while you were posting but I don't think she was meant to go into that kind of detail in the lineup. That would be in her official statement. IF she is remembering some of this correctly, it makes me think she wasn't too intoxicated, at least at first.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#82)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:46:34 PM EST
    Without other evidence, I agree the lineup won't matter. I also have a headache. I went to bed for a few hours but it didn't help.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:49:34 PM EST
    Here's some crackerjack reporting
    A Durham police officer said that he had initially downplayed and underestimated the story because the accuser ''kept changing her story and was not credible.'' Other reports include the accuser saying, initially, that the entire Duke Lacrosse team had raped her before she narrowed it down to 3 of the players.
    I think this reporter overheard Officer Day talking on his cell phone. We used to play this game in the classroom during rainy day recess - it was called telephoney.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:56:37 PM EST
    SLO wrote:
    The whole thing was a screaming lynch mob. Nifong did a pretty good job trying to defuse the lynch mob, but that is what he was having to do.
    Nifong did an excellent job of creating the lynch mob!!! "The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," said Mr. Nifong. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive -- even more so." AP quote, in multiple stories, I found it Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#85)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:06:47 PM EST
    azbballfan, I'm a little surprised about not hearing more about the accused's upbringing, too. My guess is that while money talks money also keeps mouths shut.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#86)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:09:54 PM EST
    Teresa, I hope the one shoe on one shoe off experiment didn't give you the headache. Take care of yourself.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#87)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:14:00 PM EST
    imho, how did I know that would be a right wing site? Do you notice when you google something and you read the worst quotes about the accuser how many of them link to free republic? I'm listening to Tucker. So far I haven't heard him eat any crow about "straight from first officer who talked to her". Poor Tucker, if he wasn't so pitiful, I'd hate him.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#88)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:19:08 PM EST
    lol Bob, I thought the same thing. Maybe I threw something out in my head and neck walking crooked.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#89)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:19:14 AM EST
    This could get messier. A possible DNA link has been leaked to the Herald-Sun. It seems to match the 3rd and unidentified player. It doesn't sound like a certain match though. A while male hair was also found on her but it had no root to get DNA from.
    Tissue found under the dancer's fingernails was consistent with the third man's DNA pattern, sources told The Herald-Sun on Wednesday.
    I'll catch up tomorrow to see if any of you are up on DNA and can help me understand this. I also wonder if the tests are not yet complete and that is what is holding up the discovery. www.herald-sun.com/

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#90)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:26:57 AM EST
    That should be white male pubic hair. Sorry, it's late.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#91)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:08:39 AM EST
    Taxi driver Moezeldin Elmostafa Taxi driver arrested

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#92)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:19:14 AM EST
    'Weird evening' was just the start
    Roberts showed up on time and collected her $400. The players told her they had requested a white dancer and a Hispanic dancer, and assumed Roberts was Hispanic. The other dancer, who is black, showed up a half-hour later. Defense lawyers have said the accuser showed up impaired, a claim Roberts disputed.
    Besides the accuser and the players, Roberts was the only witness inside 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. She did not witness an assault; she was outside when investigators say the players raped the other dancer in a bathroom. She spoke briefly about events in the house before clamming up at the advice of lawyers. She said she will tell all in court, under oath.
    "I am so ready for the trial," she said.
    Several days of discussion ended when Williams brought up pictures taken of the dancers at the party, Roberts said.
    "He kept mentioning my statement and the pictures in the same breath," Roberts said. "What are you trying to say, Butch? Are you trying to say if I don't sign my statement there will be pictures? And that's when I said, 'You have the opportunity to tear me apart in court,' and that's when he said, 'I can tear you apart right now.' "
    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#93)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:01:34 AM EST
    This sounds like the evidence from the DNA results Nifong claimed the defense was withholding: From the article Teresa linked to:
    Analyzing the tissue, scientists concluded it came from the same genetic pool and was "consistent" with the bodily makeup of one of 46 lacrosse players who gave DNA samples for testing, the sources said.
    Police later recovered several stick-on acrylic fingernails from a trashcan, and the tissue in question was found under one of those nails, the sources said.
    Tissue found under the dancer's fingernails was consistent with the third man's DNA pattern, sources told The Herald-Sun on Wednesday.
    In addition, the sources said a male pubic hair had been linked to the case. But because the hair lacked a root, no identifiable DNA was obtained from it, they said. The only thing that could be determined was that the hair came from a white man, the sources said.
    They did not pinpoint where the hair was found. But when police investigate rape cases, they normally comb through the alleged victim's pubic hair to determine whether male hairs are intermingled.
    The Newsweek article did say they had inconclusive results for DNA found under the accuser's fingernails and Fox New's Megyn Kendall said she heard the restesting involved hair. If the private lab gets a 13 marker match from the fingernail DNA that would be huge. That player has to be sweating bullets. If he is one of the two other guys she picked out in the line up, that will bolster her credibility. The third attacker would be the guy that she claimed she clawed, the one that strangled her. ROUND FOUR: COMING SOON It could be a tough round for either side.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#94)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:12:55 AM EST
    Duke police confirm use of secondhand info
    On Wednesday, Duke police officials confirmed that their own report March 14 that "the victim changed her story several times" was based on secondhand information rather than direct statements from Durham police.
    The officer who wrote the report, Christopher Day, included comments he overheard from a Durham officer but did not follow up with Durham police to verify the information.
    "It's what he overheard at the time," Robert Dean, director of the Duke University Police Department, said at a news conference on Duke's campus Wednesday afternoon.
    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#95)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:39:49 AM EST
    We all have our failures in life, and having them revealed during this media circus has to be awful for her.
    If she's lying, which seems likely, she deserves a lot worse.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:42:12 AM EST
    New info out today, that they have a somewhat DNA match of one of the suspects on the presson fingernails of the AV.... If this is the DA's bombshell, he is in big trouble.... But the media will carry this hype for a while, and to me the DNA evidnce looks very weak, but the media will make it look more than what it is.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#97)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:47:09 AM EST
    The officer who wrote the report, Christopher Day, included comments he overheard from a Durham officer but did not follow up with Durham police to verify the information. "It's what he overheard at the time," Robert Dean, director of the Duke University Police Department, said at a news conference on Duke's campus Wednesday afternoon.
    The (reported) fact remains that he heard a city police sergeant say those things. There's various possible ways of accounting for that (the city cop was talking about somebody else, the campus cop didn't hear it right, the city cop was lying, the campus cop was lying, etc., etc., and whatever), but the most likely is that the city cop was talking about the AV and that he said she originally alleged there were 20 rapists because she did, in fact, say so.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#98)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:58:52 AM EST
    wumhenry posted:
    but the most likely is that the city cop was talking about the AV and that he said she originally alleged there were 20 rapists because she did, in fact, say so.
    Baker said the Durham Police Sargent whom Duke Officer Day had overheard, had not spoken to the accuser and that, so far, no one in the police department knows where the twenty attacker story came from. But this is all moot if that DNA under her nails comes back a match for the player for which it is already "consistent." I wonder why the defense attorneys didn't mention the "consistent" result of the fingernail DNA or the white male pubic hair?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#99)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:01:39 AM EST
    On Greta VS, all 3 of the analysts plus Greta said the overheard conversation on the cell phone will not be admitted.
    Greta is a doofuss. Of course it won't be admitted. But the city cop who made the statements can be called as a witness, and if he heard the AV say that she was raped by 20 men, that would certainly be admissible.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#100)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:05:02 AM EST
    Baker said the Durham Police Sargent whom Duke Officer Day had overheard, had not spoken to the accuser and that, so far, no one in the police department knows where the twenty attacker story came from.
    Subtext: he was talking about the AV.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#101)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:07:13 AM EST
    The report on the arrest of the cabdriver is very disturbing. Read it, then tell me again what a swell guy Nifong is.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#102)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:18:34 AM EST
    supamike posted:
    If this is the DA's bombshell, he is in big trouble....
    But the media will carry this hype for a while, and to me the DNA evidnce looks very weak, but the media will make it look more than what it is.
    The leaked results are from the SBI lab - the stuff the defense didn't want us to hear. The "good news" the accuser's family said Nifong told them to expect could be that the private lab results are looking good. They may already have a 13 marker match for the strangler's DNA. The hold up could be the mitochondrial DNA for the white male pubic hair.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#103)
    by weezie on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:27:45 AM EST
    A hair from a fingernail that was discarded in a bathroom trash can? Cabdriver arrested on a 2+ yr old charge that was never substantiated, where he once before completely cooperated with authorities? Tell me, any reports of condom wrappers in that trash can? Completely ridiculous. Nifong could be doing more damage to the profession of "lawyer" than has been done in the past thousand years. Come on people, this is more absurd each day!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#104)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:28:16 AM EST
    wumhenry posted:
    The report on the arrest of the cabdriver is very disturbing. Read it, then tell me again what a swell guy Nifong is.
    I feel bad for the cab driver, now all the commenters that said a criminal record goes to credibility are going to attack his credibilty (NOT). For the prosecution, this is a damned if you do - damned if you don't situation - the same as with arresting Kim Roberts. If the police question someone and run a warrant check on them and plan to use them as a witness, they know the defense can ask, "Did you know Ms. Roberts had an outstanding warrant when she gave you that statement? Well, then why didn't you arrest her?" If we are talking about trying to influence a witness, check out the article about Kim Roberts that came out today. Butch Williams has some damage control to tend to.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#105)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:38:20 AM EST
    weezie posted:
    A hair from a fingernail that was discarded in a bathroom trash can?
    It said "tissue" found under the fake fingernail found in the trash. I think they mean skin tissue. If DNA of the skin tissue found under her nail is a match for the guy she says strangled her that is huge. The white male pubic hair is a separate piece of evidence. We don't know where that was found.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:50:24 AM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion said:
    The leaked results are from the SBI lab - the stuff the defense didn't want us to hear. The "good news" the accuser's family said Nifong told them to expect could be that the private lab results are looking good. They may already have a 13 marker match for the strangler's DNA. The hold up could be the mitochondrial DNA for the white male pubic hair.
    First of all the defense would know nothing of this evidence, until it is released. They cannot hold back the evidence that they dont have. So they are hiding nothing. Also it is already reported in the news that the match is weak, its not 100%. And hair evidence never is weak, its so easy to match. This evidence is nothing, if this is what the bombshell for the DA, then he does not deserve to be a DA. Lastly there was only a mention of hair, not pubic hair.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:58:53 AM EST
    IMHO, your link to the story about Roberts isn't working, at least not for me. Googling some of the phrases included in the quote didn't work either. I think it is bizarre that everyone connected with this case turns out to have had a brush with the law in his/her past. Next we will hear about the sales clerk who sold the AV her sexy outfit having been arrested in 1989 for possessing an unlicensed gun.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#108)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:12:59 AM EST
    supmike posted:
    First of all the defense would know nothing of this evidence, until it is released. They cannot hold back the evidence that they dont have. So they are hiding nothing.
    WRONG. These are the SBI lab results the defense team has had in their hands since April 10th. The defense has been hiding them for a month. supamike posted:
    Also it is already reported in the news that the match is weak, its not 100%. And hair evidence never is weak, its so easy to match. This evidence is nothing, if this is what the bombshell for the DA, then he does not deserve to be a DA.
    We know it is not a 13 marker match, but we don't know if it is weak or not - could be a 12 marker match which is not considered weak. The private lab results will come out soon. We don't even know if the white male pubic hair was tested by the SBI lab. supamike posted:
    Lastly there was only a mention of hair, not pubic hair.
    WRONG. First DNA link possible in lacrosse case
    In addition, the sources said a male pubic hair had been linked to the case. But because the hair lacked a root, no identifiable DNA was obtained from it, they said. The only thing that could be determined was that the hair came from a white man, the sources said.


    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#109)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:17:33 AM EST
    Del posted:
    IMHO, your link to the story about Roberts isn't working, at least not for me. Googling some of the phrases included in the quote didn't work either
    . Thanks, Del. Here it is: Kim Roberts Article

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#110)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:19:09 AM EST
    It would sure would be interesting if the white male pubic hair was a match to one of the three (to include Mister 90%). If it was a white male pubic hair from someone not at the party there could be some splainin' to do.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#111)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:31:18 AM EST
    Bob from Pacifica posted:
    It would sure would be interesting if the white male pubic hair was a match to one of the three (to include Mister 90%). If it was a white male pubic hair from someone not at the party there could be some splainin' to do.
    Without a root there will be no match. A visual comparison can yield a "consistent with" though. Mitochondrial DNA profile can exclude all of the players at the party, or exclude some and include others. What if Finnerty is the only player not excluded?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#112)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:42:51 AM EST
    You know, I go to bed and think that this case is going to quiet down, and then they start arresting people again, DNA info is leaked, pubic hairs are leaked (that last one sounds bad). The arrest of the cabbie is very disturbing. If Nifong is doing that now, I would guess the DNA isn't very definitive. He's tried forcing lacrosse players to roll by bringing up open can misdemeanors. He's cut a deal with Roberts. Now he's trying to shake down the cabbie. That's pretty piss-poor. He's a demonstrable pattern of trying to intimidate witnesses to coerce or change testimony. The little line by the cop before he cabbie was taken into custody isn't going to play well in court. It sounds like without a root the pubic hair isn't going to be very probative. The DNA under the fingernail might have something more. But as I've asked before, how good is a leaner for the fingernail DNA. For example, suppose the DNA shows a 1 in 6 match for Finnerty. Does a solid alibi trump that? What about a 1 in 5? 1 in 4? 1 in 2? None of that is beyond a reasonable doubt. What's also interesting is that the DNA was found under the fake fingernails that had been sitting around the house for a couple of days. No big clean up at the house to get rid of evidence, except maybe bottles and cans.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:51:15 AM EST
    How much material is necessary for them to get enough to test? Are we talking Gattica-style here? Because as somebody has already pointed out, that bathroom had to be teeming with DNA. (Wasn't there semen on a towel? Ick.) Would it be possible for the fingernail to have picked up something in the trash? I mean, esp. if there was adhesive on the back of the nail? I think I remember reading that they were the press-on kind.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#114)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:55:50 AM EST
    I read the excerpt above, and it sound like Roberts got there at 11:30 and was in the house dancing and then the AV showed up at midnight and came into the house alone. Then what did Bissey see at 11:50? Also, if the AV walked into the house at 12:00 and the two of them walked out at 12:03, when did the AV chug the drinks, when did she lose the shoe? Help me somebody.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#115)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:57:20 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    What's also interesting is that the DNA was found under the fake fingernails that had been sitting around the house for a couple of days. No big clean up at the house to get rid of evidence, except maybe bottles and cans.
    The search warrant allowed them to go through the garbage. The nails could have been found in a garbage bag placed outside. The police could have plucked it off the curb on trash day. We don't know. Bob in Pacifica posted:
    The arrest of the cabbie is very disturbing.
    Did you read my "damned if you do damned if you don't" comment

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#116)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:04:14 AM EST
    So now it turns out that Roberts was giving partially false information to the cops on her 911 call because she had an outstanding warrant. The part in the cabbie's story about the shoplifters that doesn't make sense is that he just waited around for them to finish. This suggests that the meter wasn't running. That make sense? Maybe I'm too used to big city cabbies who start their meters as soon as your butt hits the cushion. Was he a gypsy cab? I guess he could have been part of a ring of thieves, but after two and a half years, this sounds like pretty naked coercion to me.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#117)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:16:34 AM EST
    The search warrant allowed them to go through the garbage. The nails could have been found in a garbage bag placed outside. The police could have plucked it off the curb on trash day. We don't know.
    Bob, In the recent link about the DNA evidence it is stated that fingernails found in the trashcan. It looks like players cleaned up the house before the search and threw away nails and the dancer's shoe. They couldnt have courage to get rid of her cell phone and identification because in that case they could be blamed for covering up a possible crime.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#118)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:19:58 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I read the excerpt above, and it sound like Roberts got there at 11:30 and was in the house dancing and then the AV showed up at midnight and came into the house alone.
    Where did you read that?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#119)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:20:03 AM EST
    Considering that the fingernails were found in a trashcan, I would guess that the testimony from witnesses on each side about possible contamination would come into play. What kind of DNA material, for example? From skin or spit or semen or what? Was it something that might otherwise find its way into a trashcan? Was the DNA material firmly attached to the edge of the nail where it might have been scraped from an attacker or stuck on the press-on part where anything dumped into the trash might connect? I had an awful thought. Suppose one of the guys who lives there used that bathroom to "relieve himself of sexual tension," so to speak, and his sperm was found in one of the tests.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#120)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:25:46 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I guess he could have been part of a ring of thieves, but after two and a half years, this sounds like pretty naked coercion to me.
    Did you read my "damned if you do and damned if you dont post?" From the Robert's article:
    "He kept mentioning my statement and the pictures in the same breath," Roberts said. "What are you trying to say, Butch? Are you trying to say if I don't sign my statement there will be pictures? And that's when I said, 'You have the opportunity to tear me apart in court,' and that's when he said, 'I can tear you apart right now.'
    What does this sound like to you?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#121)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:36:23 AM EST
    IMHO, In that most recent NEWS & OBSERVER article on Roberts, it says: "Roberts showed up on time and collected her $400. The players told her they had requested a white dancer and a Hispanic dancer, and assumed Roberts was Hispanic. The other dancer, who is black, showed up a half-hour later." There has been a lot of speculation here about what was going on with Roberts waiting for a half-hour outside. If she showed up on time and got paid, I presume no one went out to a car parked on the street and handed her $400 dollars where she waited until the other dancer showed up. That strongly suggests to me that Roberts was in the house at 11:30 (presumably dancing), the AV showed up around midnight, and Bissey is not such a reliable witness according to what time it was. Unless Roberts' story in this article isn't right. If it's correct, then while Roberts says that the other dancer appeared sober, she didn't have benefit of walking in with her initially and talking with her for a few minutes alone and observing her sobriety. The AV would have shown up, drinks would have been handed, and the dancing would have begun for about three minutes. Then the women would have had to have walked out, come back, half-hour rape while Roberts wasn't looking, the two women leave, AV tries to get her stuff, Roberts' 911 while attendees hurl racial epithets, women drive off. Of course, I haven't gotten through my first cup of coffee, so all differing interpretations of those two sentences are invited.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#122)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:38:44 AM EST
    It looks like players cleaned up the house before the search and threw away nails and the dancer's shoe.
    That is one possibility. Another is that after a wild, raucous party, the house was looking a little messy (even by the hygienic standards of college-age men), and was cleaned for that reason. Im not at all surprised that the acrylic nails would be thrown out, but the missing shoe is intriguing.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#123)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:44:11 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I had an awful thought. Suppose one of the guys who lives there used that bathroom to "relieve himself of sexual tension," so to speak, and his sperm was found in one of the test
    Semen was found in the bathroom, either on the floor or on a towel, but the fingernail evidence is not semen. I would guess it is skin. Have you ever seen human skin under a microscope? It is pretty easily identifiable. Let's just say the tissue under the nails is identified as human skin tissue and it does have a 13 marker match to "the third attacker" the guy that she says strangled her. The jury will have to decide if his skin got in the garbage and then tumbled under her nail (it was most likely found on the unadhesive part) or if she scratched him. If his DNA shows up under her nail the defense will have to go with the fighting over the money story. The pubic hair, if found in her pubic hair combing, and if linked to a player through mDNA is going to be harder to explain.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#124)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:49:43 AM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    I keep on wondering if someone here doesn't work in a DA's office, or is married to him.
    Give it up already.
    Orinoco, Relax, it's just a bad news cycle for the defense. These things turn fast and often.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#125)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:50:33 AM EST
    Regarding Roberts' version of the events with defense attorney Butch Williams, it sounds like he was threatening her. Regarding Williams' version of the events, it sounds like she is changing her story. The difference is that Nifong is using the power of the state to coerce and change testimony. Not good. I wonder if the pictures alluded to show Roberts' doing acts of prostitution and whether it would help either side in the case. As many here have suspected, the reason why the two dancers became "separated" may have been because Roberts was turning tricks elsewhere in the house. On one hand, that makes the "nothing happened" statement by the lacrosse captains pretty much a bald-faced lie. On the other hand, it opens a myriad of other possibilities. Was the AV also turning tricks? Was there an expectation of sex included in the $400 fee? Was the complaint of rape the end of a bad business deal where she didn't get her money for services performed? Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#126)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:56:45 AM EST
    IMHO, The final DNA reports will be interesting. I presume I'll get another science lesson. Right now the odds sound like a racing sheet to me. Casual observers: Another reason not to cooperate with the DA. Your version of events might change from "nothing happened" to "we already paid her."

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#127)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:58:11 AM EST
    That is one possibility. Another is that after a wild, raucous party, the house was looking a little messy (even by the hygienic standards of college-age men), and was cleaned for that reason. Im not at all surprised that the acrylic nails would be thrown out, but the missing shoe is intriguing. I agree. I was trying to make the point that this a cleaned-up crime scene which explains the diffuculties about DNA evidence.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#128)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:59:06 AM EST
    The missing shoe may be a souvenir in one of the Duke dorms.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#129)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:07:46 AM EST
    Orinoco, You wrote:
    Following this case chills me to my bones. I'm out till the end of the case, guys.
    We'll look forward to your wrap-up. It's been a pleasure disagreeing you.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#130)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:10:03 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    The difference is that Nifong is using the power of the state to coerce and change testimony. Not good.
    Bob, for the third time: Did you read my "damned if you do, damned if you don't" comment?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#131)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:10:51 AM EST
    It's seemed to me that the central problem in this case for the defense is less the evidence--they appear to have lots of grounds for reasonable doubt, or simple innocence in Seligmann's case--but the fact that a Durham jury isn't going to have much personal empathy for two (or three or four) rich, white, out-of-state college students. But I suspect that lots of people on the jury could empathize with the cab driver--who gave testimony that was eventually corroborated by two different types of electronic evidence, but then got picked up on a 2+-year-old misdemeanor warrant and got asked on his way to the station if he wanted to add something to his previous testimony, which was very harmful to the prosecution. Nifong is beginning to remind me of Ken Starr, the judicial Ahab so convinced of the guilt of his target that he's unaware how his actions will be perceived as out-of-control by everyone else. Regarding the DNA evidence, the central story here seems to be that Nifong indicted two players against whom he has no physical evidence at all, despite the graphic crime described by the accuser in the photo ID session, with his sole evidence against the two being a photo ID array that violated not one, but two, state guidelines and therefore stands a pretty good chance of getting thrown out before any trial. I suppose Nifong could then start indicting other players for the crime, but there has to be some point where he loses whatever credibility he has left.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#132)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:15:27 AM EST
    IMHO, If you are talking about Roberts' story I read that.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#133)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:24:46 AM EST
    Regarding the missing shoe, what if AV was able to find the shoe and she had it with her (but not wearing it). Then, when she was taken to the sobering house, this is I assume where she had to make-up a story (otherwise, she stood to lose a whole a lot) she decided to give herself some bruises using the missing shoe? Then, after the job was done, she would obviously need to get rid of it. Otherwise, the police could figure out her method. So, what if it was AV who lost the shoe, and what if it was the shoe that gave AV the bruises? Is this too far fetched?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#134)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:27:28 AM EST
    If you are talking about Roberts' story I read that.
    It pertains to the cab driver as well.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#135)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:36:12 AM EST
    khartoum posted:
    Regarding the DNA evidence, the central story here seems to be that Nifong indicted two players against whom he has no physical evidence at all, despite the graphic crime described by the accuser in the photo ID session,...
    There is a possiblilty the white male pubic hair could be linked to Seligmann or Finnerty. Maybe it was found in her mouth.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#136)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:43:23 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted
    I read the excerpt above, and it sound like Roberts got there at 11:30 and was in the house dancing and then the AV showed up at midnight and came into the house alone.
    from the article:
    "Roberts showed up on time and collected her $400. The players told her they had requested a white dancer and a Hispanic dancer, and assumed Roberts was Hispanic. The other dancer, who is black, showed up a half-hour later."
    Bob, Do we know if "on time" is 11:30? If she was dancing wouldn't there be photos of her dancing?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#137)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:49:39 AM EST
    imho posted:
    There is a possiblilty the white male pubic hair could be linked to Seligmann or Finnerty. Maybe it was found in her mouth.
    And maybe the white pubic hair will be linked to the Pope. Nifong simply can't assert that even though DNA testing didn't match Seligmann or Finnerty, he'd like for the jurors to believe that it did. Both the Herald Sun and News and Observer articles from today stated there was no DNA match to the other 45 players, including Seligmann and Finnerty.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#138)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:57:26 AM EST
    Yes, I read your "damned" comment. I still think there is a difference between using state power to coerce a witness (and if the cabbie's version of events is true I see no other explanation) and Roberts talking with a defense lawyer. Roberts had to have a good idea that the defense would have had in their possession any pictures of her performance that night. She may not have wanted pictures of anything she may done that was illegal (prostitution, for ex) but with the advent of camera phones she must have known of the possibility. Now the defense attorneys had to have been satisfied with Roberts' initial statements on the events, that she didn't see anything that indicated a rape. I can understand the motives of a defense attorney in wanting her to keep the same story and concern if she changes it after the fact. He was, in short, apparently holding the photos of her "performance" over her head. That's generally known as blackmail, though it doesn't sound like a prosecutable kind of blackmail. Roberts may also have been angling for something back too. +++ By the way, I don't think that the current news cycle is necessarily damaging to the defense. It appears to me that both Nifong and the defense have had a truce about any acts of prostitution that may have happened that night. There are ways that paid sex damages both cases. Most obvious, it makes the lacrosse captains liars. But once it is entered into the public discussion, and the seamier the tone of events become, the less moral high ground the AV will have. Was she a prostitute that didn't get paid or a prostitute that was raped? If she didn't say anything to Roberts about being raped and no one at the house heard her scream "Rape!" you may have a problem with the AV's statement two days after the fact. Especially after some testimony at trial about her "one-on-one" jobs. If you have pictures of Roberts performing acts of prostitution, and she got paid $400, then wouldn't there be a natural expectation on the part of the AV that she was going to be performing acts of prostitution too? Was this all over money? Roberts knew what the euphemisms meant, the AV was in the trade, wouldn't she know too? Once prostitution enters the fray, Nifong's DNA evidence, whatever there is, becomes somewhat neutralized. The forensic analysis of the alleged strangle marks and other physical injuries may actually become more important. Maybe the defense strategy is two-part. 1.) "Prove that my client had sex with your client." 2.) Prove that it wasn't an act of prostitution. +++ Now I'm going to start my day, take a hike over Montara Mountain before it gets too hot, and then do a little grocery shopping. Lots here to ponder. And Orinoco, don't go too far. It's lonely in this trench.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#139)
    by weezie on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:05:46 AM EST
    Is anyone able to concede that Kim Roberts might have taken the passed out accuser's share of the dance money and tossed the purse out of the window during the time elapsed from departure to the Kroger call? And she could have found the shoe and tossed it once the cops took the accuser away? And if the found hair has no root, could it have fallen out naturally and been picked up by the adhesive on the nail, same with skin flakes? And please, how can Robert's be telling the truth about defense lawyer Williams, she's a known liar! No way he tried to intimidate her! Sounds like that "Sweetheart" line came from one of the dancers' historied college careers, straight As all around yo'! Mna if I'd had that many As I'd be sitting in Sandra Day O'Connor's seat right this very minute.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#140)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:19:05 AM EST
    Transcript of AV's photo ID leaked Don't know if this has been posted. The full transcript is available. The ID process appeared pretty straight forward. There did not appear to be any coaching by the police. It does not appear that the AV was told that the photos were only from the lacrosse team. Transcript Suggests Alleged Rape Victim ID'd Four Duke Lacrosse Players

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#141)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:24:24 AM EST
    Re the photo ID. My bad. The AV was told the pictures were of people they had "reason to believe attended the party". However, there were lots of photos she said she didn't recognize.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#142)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:28:46 AM EST
    khartoum posted:
    And maybe the white pubic hair will be linked to the Pope. Nifong simply can't assert that even though DNA testing didn't match, he'd like for the jurors to believe that it did. Both the Herald Sun and News and Observer articles from today stated there was no DNA match to the other 45 players, including Seligmann and Finnerty.
    Did Nifong say he had a DNA match for Seligmann or Finnerty? My reply was to this post of yours:
    Regarding the DNA evidence, the central story here seems to be that Nifong indicted two players against whom he has no physical evidence at all, despite the graphic crime described by the accuser in the photo ID session,...
    The white male pubic hair is physical evidence. Forensic hair analysis and mDNA testing could link it to Seligmann or Finnerty or the Pope.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#143)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:35:48 AM EST
    Much has been made of the AV's failure to follow up on her prior claim of rape and a death threat by her then husband. Here's a lady who had a bomb thrown at her by her ex-boyfriend and didn't pursue charges. Man Says Beaver Dam, Not Estranged Girlfriend, Target Of Bomb
    Sheriff's deputies said Wilkins threatened the woman. Then, according to the accusations, he lobbed the bomb at his girlfriend's Oldsmobile in Rougemont as she drove into her yard. Garrell described the bomb as a black bottle containing black gunpowder with wires protruding from it. Witnesses said it exploded in "a large fireball" when Wilkins threw it. The bottle then rolled back toward him, igniting his shorts. Wilkins, who was the only person injured in the blast, was treated for more than a week at a hospital burn center.
    Prosecutor Mitchell Garrell said he pursued a plea-bargain because the intended victim was uncooperative with him.
    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#144)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:43:38 AM EST
    weezie asked:
    Is anyone able to concede that Kim Roberts might have taken the passed out accuser's share of the dance money and tossed the purse out of the window during the time elapsed from departure to the Kroger call?
    Yes.
    And she could have found the shoe and tossed it once the cops took the accuser away?
    Yes.
    And if the found hair has no root, could it have fallen out naturally and been picked up by the adhesive on the nail, same with skin flakes?
    We don't know where the hair was found. It may have nothing to do with the nail. Hopefully, the nail was photographed before the tissue was removed for analysis. It may be able to be determined if the tissue was scraped onto the nail or fell onto it.
    And please, how can Robert's be telling the truth about defense lawyer Williams, she's a known liar!
    That story rang true to me.
    No way he tried to intimidate her!
    Unless you were there, I'd go with her take over yours.
    Sounds like that "Sweetheart" line came from one of the dancers' historied college careers, straight As all around yo'! Mna if I'd had that many As I'd be sitting in Sandra Day O'Connor's seat right this very minute.
    Unfortunately for the defense, they are not dealing with two skanky coke whores, but two bright educated women. Not that this fact makes it a fair fight, but had it been otherwise, the women would have no chance at all.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#145)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:47:31 AM EST
    RE: "The ID process appeared pretty straight forward." Huh? They told her that they were showing only people that they believed to be at the party. I've done photo-lineups and this is the most assanine lineup I've ever heard of. There should be five known innocents for every suspect. This 'lineup' was shooting fish in a barrel and allows her to randomly pick people with an almost 100% probablity of picking someone at the party. It completely misses the point of a lineup and violates every standard I've ever heard of.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#146)
    by azbballfan on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:07:33 AM EST
    The photo linuep does not violate anyone's rights. The police had a case where an alleged victim did not previously know her attackers and potential witnesses. The police had a set of photos avaialble to review with the alleged victim. So they did.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#147)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:13:11 AM EST
    SgtYork, I've done photo-lineups and this is the most assanine lineup I've ever heard of.
    What's your professional background and what is your experience with respect to line-ups?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#148)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:16:22 AM EST
    Sgt York posted:
    This 'lineup' was shooting fish in a barrel and allows her to randomly pick people with an almost 100% probablity of picking someone at the party.
    The captains claimed six players did not attend the party. That would mean only 87% or 89% (depending on whether or not the sole black player attended the party) of the players in the line up were at the party at some point in the day/night - though not necessarily still there by the time the accuser showed up. 13% or 11% of the the players in the line up were not at the party at all.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#149)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:19:09 AM EST
    The difference is that Nifong is using the power of the state to coerce and change testimony.
    Bob, didn't you hear? Nifong has no history of unethical behavior. Case closed. I think if the DNA under her fingernail is from a scraping of skin, it's going to be important. Sure, it could have gotten there in a normal and relatively benign way or due to a physical altercation (like over money or something) but it also could have gotten there due to her being strangled and raped. It'll be interesting to see what the actual report says rather than just the snipits that have been leaked.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#150)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:35:46 AM EST
    Oddly enough, the "sweetheart" line was the only part of her story that rang true to me. It sounds like just the kind of patronizing thing a frat rat might say. Of course, the line might have been delivered, just not in a locked bathroom. Maybe it was part of the "persuasion" speech when she left the first time.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#151)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:36:53 AM EST
    What are the chances that what has been described as a pubic hair is actually a mustache hair?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#152)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:04:12 AM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one posted:
    What are the chances that what has been described as a pubic hair is actually a mustache hair?
    That's an interesting question. From a crash course in human hair analysis, I'd guess they can be differentiated. Microscopy of Hair: A Practical Guide and Manual for Human Hairs

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#153)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:08:25 AM EST
    There are standards for photo lineups and the INTENT is to reduce the chances of erroneous identification that might lead to the arrest and conviction of innocent people. Letting her randomly pick people that the police believed were at the party is crazy... it completely misses the POINT of a photo line-up (ie, reducing the change of false identification). This is no different that a woman reporting her purse stolen and the police showing her three photos and announcing, "Here are three known purse snatchers without an alibi... which one took your purse?"

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#154)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:19:54 AM EST
    This is no different that a woman reporting her purse stolen and the police showing her three photos and announcing, "Here are three known purse snatchers without an alibi... which one took your purse?"
    It is a lot different. Reade has an alibi. ;) First, they would have to weed out the players that had alibis, then they would have to weed out the players that were not known sexual offenders, then they would have to hope they weren't left with more than nine players or less than nine players ...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#155)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:37:36 AM EST
    Thanks imho, it does seem as though experts can differentiate between facial and pubic hair. Also, the testimony of the AV during in the lineup was pretty compelling, although the transcript was somewhat biased toward building her case (the only subjective written description of the AV's demeanor during the lineup was something about "tears welling up in her eyes" - although the video tape showing her demeanor during the entire exercise should trump the written transcript). Lastly, (and forgive me if you've gone through this 100x before, I don't read thoroughly every comment posted) according to the lineup transcript, the police showed her a lineup of the guys they believed were at the party, where did you get the idea that some of the guys in the lineup were not at the party?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#156)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:43:06 AM EST
    I'm still catching up on this thread, but Bob, if the search warrant is correct, the accuser arrived at 11:30. I guess Kim may have been there around 11:00?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#157)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:54:00 AM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    If she didn't say anything to Roberts about being raped and no one at the house heard her scream "Rape!" you may have a problem with the AV's statement two days after the fact.
    Bob, do you do this on purpose? Surely, you know she didn't wait two days to tell anyone she was raped.
    At approximately 2:50 a.m. the report was changed from "passed out drunk" to alleged rape.


    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#158)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    Lastly, (and forgive me if you've gone through this 100x before, I don't read thoroughly every comment posted) according to the lineup transcript, the police showed her a lineup of the guys they believed were at the party, where did you get the idea that some of the guys in the lineup were not at the party?
    It has been reported that six team member did not attend the party. I think this came from the three captains. I'm not sure if Reade was one of the six ;). If Sherwood was not in attendence that would mean of 5 of the 46 players in the line up were not there. If sherwood was at the party, 6 of the 46 players in the line up were not at the party.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#159)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:11:58 PM EST
    Also, the testimony of the AV during in the lineup was pretty compelling, although the transcript was somewhat biased toward building her case (the only subjective written description of the AV's demeanor during the lineup was something about "tears welling up in her eyes" - although the video tape showing her demeanor during the entire exercise should trump the written transcript).
    I also notice this exchange: Sgt.: Do you need some tissues? I can see your crying. victim: No, I'm fine. and earlier he asked her is she was O.K.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#160)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:13:45 PM EST
    imho, wasn't there some discussion that a few non-team mates were at the party?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#161)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:19:30 PM EST
    Sources say the third player is the same person who was identified with "90 percent" certainty by the alleged victim in a photo lineup. That lineup was conducted by police weeks after the March 13 off-campus lacrosse team party where the alleged incident took place.
    abcnews.go.com This seems more significant now. It isn't just one of the players but the 90% player.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#162)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:25:17 PM EST
    IMHO & Bob,
    Did you read my "damned if you do, damned if you don't" comment?
    If the police are intimidating the cab driver by arresting him, then they did the same to Kim. From the Newsobserver article you posted.
    Because there was a warrant for her arrest, Roberts told police she picked up the woman on the road, in a crowd of men yelling racial slurs. Police did not ask her name, and Roberts went home. A week later, Roberts' escort agency told her police wanted to talk to her about a possible rape. After she gave a statement, police arrested her for the probation violation.
    Thanks for your cooperation. Interesting, Kim had more balls than some of those lacrosse team members who refused to cooprerate with the police.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#163)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:26:10 PM EST
    imho, I should have been more clear, I was talking of this from the lineup transcript:
    Victim: "He put his p* in my a* and my v*" (The victim's eyes were pooling with tears)
    It's the only added written description of her demeanor during the lineup. As I said, the video should trump the written transcript, should this go to jury.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#164)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:31:42 PM EST
    imho, wasn't there some discussion that a few non-team mates were at the party?
    I recall reading that two "frat guys" came with a lacrosse player. The search warrant says the three captains stated:
    their fellow Duke Lacross Team Members were the ones who attended this party. They knew everyone there, and stated there were no strangers who showed up at the event.
    It sounds like it was only lacrosse players, but a strict reading does not preclude the frat guys being there. It doesn't say the team members were the ONLY ones who attended and the frat guys wouldn't have been strangers. It could be that the captains told the police the frat guys were there earlier , but left before the dancers showed up. Could be they were still there whem the dancers were there. Could be bad reporting.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#165)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:36:18 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one:
    It's the only added written description of her demeanor during the lineup. As I said, the video should trump the written transcript, should this go to jury.
    Oh yeah. I see what you meant, now (Duh). My bad.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#166)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:37:04 PM EST
    When the police arrested Kim, I don't think that the police explicitly told her to minimize or maximize any information on the rape charge. Please correct me if they did.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#167)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:38:21 PM EST
    imho, well, now that I think about it, the only important question about the lineup is were any non-players in the lineup? If not, then all the 46 guys in the lineup were LAX players. And since not all the players attended the party, you're right, she didn't have 100% odds to pick an attendee. Boy, the few that didn't attend must be dancing a jig.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#168)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:39:50 PM EST
    imho posted:
    The white male pubic hair is physical evidence. Forensic hair analysis and mDNA testing could link it to Seligmann or Finnerty or the Pope. The ABC story linked above states, "New results from this second round of testing will help the prosecution's case, sources close to the investigation say." So unless Nifong is planning to do a third DNA test, there is no DNA evidence at all against Seligmann or Finnerty, and nothing linking the white male pubic hair to either person he's arrested. As for the third player, I suppose we'll soon see just how "partial" the "partial" match is.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#170)
    by wumhenry on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    From the ABC report:
    After he dropped off Seligmann, he went back for a second pick up of Duke lacrosse players from the party house. When he arrived, he noticed "a lot of people outside" -- a group of students standing around and a woman walking out of the house, across the driveway and into her car. The woman -- presumably the other dancer who did not accuse the men of rape -- was arguing with the students outside.
    The interesting thing here, which I hadn't heard before, is that the taxidriver returned to the house after dropping Seligman off at his dorm at about 12:46 and that the stripper/hookers were still there when he went back. I.e., they were still there at about 1 AM. Objective evidence establishes that Seligman called the cab at 12:14 and left the house within a couple of minutes thereafter. So if Seligman raped the AV, the crime was completed before 12:14. Point: if you want to believe the AV you have to bring yourself to believe that she hung around on the premises for something like 45 minutes after having been beaten, strangled, and gangraped there. A tall order for anyone but a true believer.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#171)
    by azbballfan on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:24:44 PM EST
    lamehenry
    Point: if you want to believe the AV you have to bring yourself to believe that she hung around on the premises for something like 45 minutes after having been beaten, strangled, and gangraped there. A tall order for anyone but a true believer.
    Yea, especially since she was passed out. Lay off the kool-aid.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#172)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:25:09 PM EST
    Teresa, hope you're feeling better today. I went back and looked at the March 29 search warrant which talks about the AV arriving and joining the other dancer. What was the document that talked about the two dancers meeting and entering and dancing? The March 29 search warrant seems to be in line with Roberts saying that she arrived a half-hour earlier, but the other document that I'm thinking of seemed to suggest that the two entered the house together. If Roberts arrived at 11 and the AV arrived at 11:30, then Bissey's observations fit into the clock if the 11:50 sighting were the women reentering the house. That's a whole hour without photos. I can't imagine these guys just waiting until the second dancer arrived, especially if no one knew if she was going to show up. Maybe they're the photos that Roberts and Williams were arguing about.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#173)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    If there was a rape, we know why Roberts wasn't the chosen victim.
    She didn't drink the liquid refreshment they provided?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#174)
    by azbballfan on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:33:54 PM EST
    I'm suprised that no-one seems to be making a bid deal about the Duke Police Department and University Administration tipping off the lacrosse team that the Durham Police were investigating this. The Duke report clearly states that this phone call was made March 14th - two days prior to the search warrant. This gives the players some time to work on their story. It could also explain the Captains' initial cooperation: "Don't worry, we'll give 'em our story and this will all go away. The Duke Police tell us that the Durham PD don't believe her." Then as soon as a couple of parents and lawyers realize what's happening, they quickly build the wall of shame (silence).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#175)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:37:17 PM EST
    Dan Abram's just acted as the identity of th4e third suspect was a well known fact although he wasn't named. I am sure he is entitled to privacy until Nifong gets him indicted next week. If in fact he is the #5-90% guy then what about the line-up #4 guy who also looked like a guy who was involved. Also, this woman managed to recognize 17 men from a party she attended for maybe 45 minutes and thirty of those are supposedly spoken for. That is incredible, especially after weeks had passed. She also seems to remember what they were doing and/or wearing/saying. She has a remarkable memory especially if drunk, drugged, traumatized. I can barely remember what I ate for dinner last night, let alone the extraneous faces of people met in passing weeks before. AMAZING!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#176)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:38:30 PM EST
    IMHO, go back and read what chew2 posted. By the way, Lora doesn't think that the AV was intoxicated. Do you? If she were, was it enough to affect her identification?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#177)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:40:48 PM EST
    Anyone, Please post a link to the original search warrant, which must have been around March 16. Would appreciate it.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#178)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:42:33 PM EST
    thesmokinggun Bob - first search warrant

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#179)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:45:32 PM EST
    IMHO, go back and read what chew2 posted.
    About Kim's and the cabbie's arrests? I agree with chew.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#180)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:46:28 PM EST
    Also, this woman managed to recognize 17 men from a party she attended for maybe 45 minutes and thirty of those are supposedly spoken for. That is incredible, especially after weeks had passed.
    I also think it is incredible that she identified someone with 90% certainty and that person also has consistent DNA with that found under her fingernail. And none of the other 45 did. What are the odds of that?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#181)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:52:48 PM EST
    azbballfan, You dismiss lamehenry's comment by saying the AV was passed out. We see a picture of her standing with one shoe, we see her having apparently fallen, we see her at the back door. She has apparently lost her motor skills to an extent that she needs to be helped into the car. Are you saying that the AV was passed out as in blacked out? That would explain her trying to get back into the house after she had been raped there, but it wouldn't help her credibility for identifying anyone. If your reasoning to lamehenry as to why the AV stayed around for up to 45 minutes after Seligmann left (okay everyone but Lora agrees she was out of it by about a quarter to one, so a half-hour) was that she was unconscious, albeit on her feet, how does that fit with her being able to identify what different men at the party were doing and who did what to her? Just curious.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#182)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:53:46 PM EST
    What if 90% lives in the house and picked the nails up off the floor? (those things can be really sticky if press on type) What if 90% fought with the AV over the money and she grabbed him? What if 90% got a lap dance from AV and she raked her fingernails across his skin? What if and this really is what if but if she wasn't "just a dancer" we may start to see allegations by the defense of consensual sex acts performed for dare I say it MONEY.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#183)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    Teresa, Sounds incredible. Maybe she wasn't passed out like everyone but Lora says. Or maybe we haven't seen the DNA results and they won't be as definitive as advertised.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#184)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:55:30 PM EST
    khartoum posted:
    So unless Nifong is planning to do a third DNA test, there is no DNA evidence at all against Seligmann or Finnerty, and nothing linking the white male pubic hair to either person he's arrested.
    As for the third player, I suppose we'll soon see just how "partial" the "partial" match is.
    I don't think what we are reading today is all there is, though it could be. Even with no mDNA profile the hair can still be linked to Seligmann or Finnerty using forensic hair analysis. As for the fingernail DNA, the numbers for even a partial match can be staggering - in the trillions. The fact that the partial match is for the guy she says she scratched is daming as Hell. He could turn on the other two.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#185)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:56:16 PM EST
    wish, if the defense goes from "no sex, nothing happened" to "consensual sex" how could you believe another word from the defendants mouths?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#186)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:01:15 PM EST
    wishiwas, according to the two DNA experts on Abrams the defense will argue that it was just a transfer of DNA from the trash, but that it would be very highly unlikely because it's tissue, not fingerprints. The reason Abrams and Yale know the identity of the 3rd guy is because they are close to the defense team. They expect an indictment Monday so I guess we'll know then.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#187)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:06:30 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    If your reasoning to lamehenry as to why the AV stayed around for up to 45 minutes after Seligmann left...
    Just because Seligmann left, doesn't mean the attack was over. According to the defense she was lying on the porch trying to get in, falling down, lying on the stairs from 12:30 to 12:41. If Reade left around 12:17, that only leaves 13 minutes from when he leaves until we see the accuser on the back porch at 12:30. This is the time frame the defense admits she was "alone" in the house - meaning Kim was outside.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#188)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:06:31 PM EST
    wishiwasafly, When I mentioned prostitution earlier my 8:36 am comment) everyone here stayed away. Both the DA and the defense attorneys have had a truce about any illicit but agreed upon acts between either of the dancers and the attendees of the party. 1.) We have Roberts and Williams arguing about photos. Photos of what? 2.) We have no explanation of where Roberts was when separated from the AV. 3.) We have questions about the fight over money between the AV and the attendees. 4.) We have the AV's "one on one" jobs. If the case moves to trial, I expect charges of prostitution to be made.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#189)
    by azbballfan on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:13:54 PM EST
    Bob,
    Are you saying that the AV was passed out as in blacked out? That would explain her trying to get back into the house after she had been raped there, but it wouldn't help her credibility for identifying anyone.
    I don't pretend to have all the answers. Apparently there is photo evidence that at some time that night, the AV tried to get back in the house. There is later photo evidence that she's passed out on the back porch. It's very believable that being intoxicated caused her to stay after a rape. From her description of the event, it's also plausible that she was in shock. While it would seem natural for someone who was attacked to want to run away from the scene, the shock of the event can cause a person to go a little batty and over the edge. This is consistent with the later police reports of her behavior as she started to come to. Actually, I am suprised that she'd be able to identify her attackers. It sounds like she was in pretty bad shape that night. I wouldn't be suprised if Seligmann's identification proved to be wrong. He does look a lot like the other player. Finnerty has looks that definitely make him stand out. All that said, the evidence shared by the prosecution to date hasn't convinced me that a rape occurred. But it's not his job to prove it to the public, he just needs to show adequate evidence to further the investigation to the grand jury. In my opinion, there is more than enough evidence to proceed. In order to improve the public's right to question those involved and compell theit testimony, he needed to bring charges. Like it or not, it's just how the legal system works. Again, I'm very suprised that no-one is making a bigger deal over how the Duke Administration tipped off the team that the Durham Police were investigating this. It's a sign that the Duke family was looking to take care of it's own.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#190)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:15:55 PM EST
    You know, this was a good enough sample to exclude 45 of those guys, so it must be a pretty good one. Bob, did you read the article where Kim says the police used smelling salts on her? She really must have been out of it by that time but she was okay enough to stand alone on the steps at 12:30. Of course, then she fell but I probably would have too with that rug being where it was.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#191)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:16:24 PM EST
    sarcastic, it was the three lacrosse captains who said "nothing happened." If none of their DNA shows up and they weren't involved in the money, then I guess you could say that they maybe had their head turned. But if you have pictures of Roberts performing a sexual act, and the DA has the DNA, what's your next step?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#192)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:17:12 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Both the DA and the defense attorneys have had a truce about any illicit but agreed upon acts between either of the dancers and the attendees of the party.
    What are you talking about?
    1.) We have Roberts and Williams arguing about photos. Photos of what?
    Photos of them in scanty outfits obviously working as strippers?
    If the case moves to trial, I expect charges of prostitution to be made.
    Do you mean the players are going to change from "no sex" to "paid sex?" That reminds me, Yale Galanter is now saying Seligmann's and Finnerty's lawyers are have said "no sex", but we don't know what the 90% guy said. So for everyone here that kept saying all of the players have said "nothing happened" according to Galanter, we don't know that.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#193)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:17:26 PM EST
    Teresa, I don't see the 11:30 time on the search warrants. What document was that?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#194)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:19:46 PM EST
    I think it is naive to think that "private dancers" who routinely (sp?) go on one on one jobs only dance. Even some of the talking heads on MSNBC and FOX will admit that the job often is a cover for other "illicit" activities. I am not saying the AV was prostituting herself, but anyone interested in this case would be naive to overlook the possibility that sex for money is a bigger part of this case than we know. Right now it is in the best interest of the nothing happened defense and a rape occurred prosecutor to leave out any sex for money conversation. I for one would love to know exactly what a "dancer" does on a one on one "date". I believe that something may have happened in that house, but I am unsure the AV will ever be able to muster the necessary credibility to convince a jury. Also, I have a serious feeling Seligmann may be an error in identification, and if he is, I think no one will ever be punished if in fact something happened. I wish I knew whose hair that was and exactly what kind it was. I would also love to know how good that DNA match is. I guess I'll just wait like everyone else.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#195)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:23:18 PM EST
    Bob, imho, I see your points. I don't even remember the exact source of the "no sex, nothing happened" comment...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#196)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:31:41 PM EST
    Teresa, I don't see the 11:30 time on the search warrants. What document was that?
    It's on the one for the e-mail guys dorm room. Want me to find it?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#197)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:40:52 PM EST
    wish, it is a public hair from a white person. Don't know who it belongs to yet.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#198)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:49:46 PM EST
    lol, pubic hair, though public might apply here.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#199)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:00:16 PM EST
    hahahaha public hair? No wonder they don't know who it belongs to...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#200)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:11:08 PM EST
    DNA was found under only "one" of the AV's nails? That's sounds like pretty selective scratching. Maybe she had her middle finger extended. If someone knows -- BTW -- Just how much DNA could be found under her fingernail if the AV had grazed her finger against the lax player who handed her the mixed drink? I don't know, I'm just asking?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#201)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:12:05 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one,
    Bob, imho, I see your points.
    Did I agree with Bob on a point? argh!
    I don't even remember the exact source of the "no sex, nothing happened" comment...
    It was said many times by various attorneys. I compiled them for a post way back. My point was a defense oriented talking head was back pedaling on that As I am typing this out Dan Abrams, on TV, just restated "nothing happened" has been the defense stance all along how are they going to change that now? Yale Galanter started talking Lap Dance. hahahhaha. Better have them photos....

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#202)
    by chew2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:13:27 PM EST
    Wishiwasafly
    I for one would love to know exactly what a "dancer" does on a one on one "date".
    What city do you live in? I'll send you a link, so you can find out! How much do you want to spend. LOL!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#203)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:22:36 PM EST
    SLOphoto posted:
    If someone knows -- BTW -- Just how much DNA could be found under her fingernail if the AV had grazed her finger against the lax player who handed her the mixed drink? I don't know, I'm just asking?
    I don't know, but if was that easy I would think DNA would have been found under all of her nails. For the people that think the skin flakes may have fallen onto the nails while in the trash - try this: Take a paring knife and scrape the surface of a lemon. See the zest curled up on the knife? Now using a fresh knife do it again. Wipe the knife off and drop the zest back onto the clean knife. Compare the two knives. Hopefully, they took a photo of the nail before removing the tissue.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#204)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:23:16 PM EST
    I just started a new thread on the reports of the DNA test. Comments are closing here.

    Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued | 203 comments (203 topical)