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1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail

by TChris

The latest numbers in Prison Nation reveal a reliance on incarceration that continues unabated.

Prisons and jails added more than 1,000 inmates each week for a year, putting almost 2.2 million people, or one in every 136 U.S. residents, behind bars by last summer.

As always, black men are disproportionately incarcerated. As usual, red states lead the way.

In the 25-29 age group, an estimated 11.9 percent of black men were in prison or jails, compared with 3.9 percent of Hispanic males and 1.7 percent of white males.

Overall, 738 people were locked up for every 100,000 residents, compared with a rate of 725 at mid-2004. The states with the highest rates were Louisiana and Georgia, with more than 1 percent of their populations in prison or jail. Rounding out the top five were Texas, Mississippi and Oklahoma.

Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, sums it up: "It's not a sign of a healthy community when we've come to use incarceration at such rates."

The annual report by the Bureau of Justice Statistics tells us that jail populations have increased at a faster rate than prison populations, in part because prison systems increasingly rent jail space to catch the overflow when they run out of prison beds. But the number of pretrial detainees held in jail is also growing.

"The jail population is increasingly unconvicted," [Allen] Beck [of the Bureau of Justice Statistics] said. "Judges are perhaps more reluctant to release people pretrial." The report by the Justice Department agency found that 62 percent of people in jails have not been convicted, meaning many of them are awaiting trial.

Almost a third of the soaring jail population is presumed innocent. Why isn't this alarming statistic more newsworthy than the runaway bride's latest marital decision?

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    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun May 21, 2006 at 05:31:20 PM EST
    You might have mentioned the recent report from King's College, London, courtesy of its International Centre for Prison Studies: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/publications.html From the report we learn, for example, that The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 714 per 100,000 of the national population, followed by Belarus, Bermuda and Russia (all 532), Palau (523), U.S. Virgin Islands (490), Turkmenistan (489), Cuba (487), Suriname (437), Cayman Islands (429), Belize (420), Ukraine (417), Maldive Islands (416), St Kitts and Nevis (415), South Africa (413) and Bahamas (410). However, almost three fifths of countries (58%) have rates below 150 per 100,000. Prison population rates vary considerably between different regions of the world, and between different parts of the same continent. Discussion of this report began at Andrew Sullivan's blog, continued with Peggy McGuiness over at Opinio Juris, and ended appropriately enough over at Berman's Sentencing Law and Policy blog on 11 May, 2006. At the latter you will find some material I pasted in the comments from experts in the field by way of an attempt to put the figures in some sort of larger (explanatory) context. I've since assembled a basic bibliography: 'criminal law, punishment & prisons,' with books and articles (and internet sites) that further help one understand some of the causes and effects associated with this nation's unconscionable incarceration rate. I'm no expert in this area, but it was not difficult to track down the relevant literature given an ardent avocational interest. I'll pass along the list to anyone interested.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun May 21, 2006 at 05:39:26 PM EST
    Whoops! I should also have mentioned the recent publication of the Women's Prison Association: 'Hard Hit: The Growth in the Imprisonment of Women, 1977-2004.' A link and brief discussion are found in today's post over at Sentencing Law and Policy: http://sentencing.typepad.com/ As noted by Berman from the Foreword to the report: Over the past three decades, as the United States has experienced explosive prison growth, women have been hard hit. Although women have the dubious distinction of being the fastest growing segment of the prison population, scant attention has been paid to their involvement in the criminal justice system. Indeed, even most official sources of criminal justice data do not distinguish between men and women in their analyses, leaving it only to speculation on whether there are any distinctions between the two groups that make a difference. HARD HIT: The Growth in the Imprisonment of Women, 1977 - 2004 is the first study of its kind, analyzing the striking growth in the numbers of women in prison, state-by-state over nearly three decades. The report provides context to the alarming growth trends and reviews what is understood about the phenomena by researchers who study women in the criminal justice system....

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#3)
    by lilybart on Sun May 21, 2006 at 05:59:34 PM EST
    Legalize drugs and this will change DRAMATICALLY. Where does all the money come from to buy guns and other weapons, that end up on the streets for criminals and gangs and genocidal militias, worldwide? Drug money. Take this away, collect taxes just like pharmacuetical drugs, and the prisons will empty and the criminals will lose their major source of funding. Next problem?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#4)
    by lilybart on Sun May 21, 2006 at 06:01:41 PM EST
    AND...I believe that if marijuana were more easily and legally available, fewer people would use meth (I know the high is different, but people are looking to feel good in general, not just jumpy) and they would drink much less, and be more healthy and lose less time to hangovers.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Sun May 21, 2006 at 06:10:54 PM EST
    AND...I believe that if marijuana were more easily and legally available, fewer people would use meth (I know the high is different, but people are looking to feel good in general, not just jumpy) and they would drink much less, and be more healthy and lose less time to hangovers.
    but what would the police do then. there would be massive unemployment.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun May 21, 2006 at 09:13:37 PM EST
    Patrick -- thanks for the informative comments. So what do we do to reduce the American reliance upon incarceration (other than legalizing drugs, which is not politically viable)?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun May 21, 2006 at 09:39:31 PM EST
    Lilybart, The 35 billion per year war on drugs, with all of the associated government pensioners, cool helicopters, corporate interests (see paper industry)and prison contractors depends greatly upon the continued criminalization of marijuana. But keep the faith. You are not alone.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Sun May 21, 2006 at 10:59:22 PM EST
    Or, mayeb we just have the most freedoms of any nation on earth and more people willing to take advantage of that. Any the best police of course, to catch all those bad guys and gals.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#10)
    by azbballfan on Sun May 21, 2006 at 11:51:39 PM EST
    Personally I think the growth of our prison and jail population as a percentage of the overall population speaks to our priorities. It seems more important to condemn and punish than to teach, treat, and empower. If we did a better job with our public educational programs to include material on proper behavior then we would all be better off. There are those who insist we don't have the right to supplant the advice of parents. I personally disagree and think it is perfectly right to teach very basic morals to our students. Initially, I expect the coursework to be rough around the edges, but I look forward to them being honed quickly by the public pressure and scrutiny. As for treatment, I'm less concerned about treatment for substance abuse as treatment for the effects of physical and mental abuse people get from their friends and loved ones. We need to find a way to break the chain of abusive behavior. As for empowerment. Back in the day when the United States had the edge on providing most high tech capital goods to the world, we changed the tax system to incent investment in technological capital. Of course, there is going to be some push back from labor on these changes, and there were. But the tax changes prevailed and the middle to high tech industries received effective tax subsidies to spur job growth in those sectors. Today, most of our middle to high tech capital expenditures come from overseas. The tax policy is aged and flawed. We need to recognize that the world economy has changed and come up with a new tax policy that recognizes those changes. Thanks TL for all your work.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#11)
    by BigTex on Mon May 22, 2006 at 02:15:13 AM EST
    azbballfan - while there should be nmore civics taught in the classroom, if I ever have children the teacher who tells my child that my moral code is wrong is in for a very rough time. The problem with teaching morality is that everyone has their own code, and all codes are different. Look even at religions and all the divisions in the religions. For a group of people who say they follow the same sacred text that is the final word on faith and morals, regardless of te name of the book, the disagreement of what is said is staggering.
    We need to find a way to break the chain of abusive behavior.
    That's the key. Resolve the famalial problems and the substance abuse, of all varities, is cut back. It's not eliminated, but no more eliminating sorrows in the drug of choice. The whole treat the disease crown fails to realise one salient point. Many do not want help. We should make help available to those who need it, but we shouldn't force the help on those who do not want help. Save the spots for those who want to kick the habit.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 03:48:29 AM EST
    As a drug user,(for thirty years) I think it would be catastrophic to legalize drugs. Marijuana yes, but if they legalize cocaine, this country will fall into a zombie anarchy. Don't ever,ever push for legalization of cocaine.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#13)
    by SeeEmDee on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:55:20 AM EST
    Signal, as much as I dislike drugs harder than cannabis, I have to disagree. The reason why The Mob was able to continue functioning immediately after alcohol Prohibition ended was because they invested the 'seed money' they got from previously illicit booze sales and rolled it into illicit drugs. The props have to be knocked completely out from under organized crime by government legalizing, regulating and controlling drug sales. Leave a bolt-hole for these 'wiseguys' and they'll take it every time. Starve them of their revenues by returning presently illicit drug prices to their natural levels (pennies on the dollar) and you reduce their power. As far as the personal angle is concerned, the decision to use is just that; something the indivdual must decide. I had anti-drug education in public school back in the early 1970's that was not intended to scare me but just giving me the facts. Using those facts, without the 'boogeyman factor' employed in modern-day anti-drug education, caused me to avoid not only the illicits but legal drugs such as alcohol and tobacco. I didn't try cannabis until I was 31. We don't lock up alcoholics for being alcoholics. But that's partly because vanishingly few are forced to commit crimes to sustain their habit because their drug is cheaply and legally available. If someone is bound and determined to auto-destruct, why should society pay a stiff price (scores of billions each year and eroded civil liberties) for trying to stop them? We don't do it for alcoholics; why should illicit drug users receive such 'special attention'?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#14)
    by lilybart on Mon May 22, 2006 at 06:31:51 AM EST
    Agree SeeemDee....i have access to all the drugs I could want here in NYC, but I choose NOT to use them. I know how dangerous heroin and meth are, so I wouldn't think of it. Most people are like me I believe. The people who are looking to obliterate their cocnsciousness, will do it with alcohol or whatever they can find. those people need help, not jail.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 07:23:35 AM EST
    Anyone here ever heard of Methadone? Legal narcotic. Prescription needed. Controlled. Useful for addiction. Not abused. Dispensed by clinics. Huh.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#16)
    by Patrick on Mon May 22, 2006 at 07:54:09 AM EST
    Not abused
    Hahha...That's a good one! Now, I've got this bridge for sale....

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 09:53:44 AM EST
    134...135...136 whoa, wait! let me log off first!

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#18)
    by John Mann on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:17:51 PM EST
    Or, mayeb we just have the most freedoms of any nation on earth
    Keep telling yourself that, Patrick. There are plenty of countries on the planet that have the same, if not more, "freedoms" than the U.S. - especially since the current administration took control. I'll concede that most of them, however, don't have the freedom to slaughter one another with guns.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 01:10:44 PM EST
    Patrick, The first article makes my point like a diamond tipped laser. Health and law enforcement officials are reporting that some of these addicts are turning to methadone when they cannot get the other drugs. The cutbacks in treatment, along with the continued criminalization of lifestyles (of course, not YOURS Patrick - yet) is the problem. the phenomenon is easily understood by anyone who takes the time to read the articles. You just Googled the right words and didn't even read what you link to. Typical.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 01:14:32 PM EST
    Patrick, No one can make a man understand something when his paycheck depends upon him not understanding it. I forget who said that but it applies here.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Mon May 22, 2006 at 01:18:43 PM EST
    Che, You said it was not abused. The 3+ millions hits on that google search suggest otherwise. It's not a case of you making me understand anything but your outrageous claim was debunked.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#22)
    by Johnny on Mon May 22, 2006 at 02:03:11 PM EST
    Alcohol, quite possibly the most dangerous drug out there (primarily due to it's vailability) is not illegal because alcoholism is an ingrained part of american culture. Siognificant religious roots contribute to our cultures embrace of this highly addictive mind altering substance. Marijuana is in every way safer than alcohol-and if Jesus Christ had been puffing a doobie while preaching about how happy people should be to be poor-this nation would be waging a war on beer drinkers. In any event, most lawmakers prove every day that those in power refuse to learn from history. Prohibition is, and always will be, a massive, expensive failure supported 100% by those making a living off of it.

    According to the DOJ 21% of all US prisoners are in for drug offenses. If they weren't - ie., if we had no drug laws - we'd still have incarceration rates of ~580/100,000. Which, if Patrick S's data at the top of the thread is accurate, means we'd still have the #1 incarceration rate in the world. fyi.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 02:28:56 PM EST
    Patrick, Define abuse. These people are not taking Methadone for the buzz. There is none. They are taking it to relieve the discomfort, both physical and psychological, of the withdrawl. Now mind you, I'm not intending to explain deaths out of hand. But there are serious human social dynamics involving all drugs that transcend good or bad. People are victims of the disease of addiction. For the masses, incarceration of non violent drug users is an issue of social convenience and stigma. People don't want to take the time to understand the social impact of the ridiculous war on drugs, other than being spoon fed DEA propaganda (might as well eat it, we paid for it). I concede to you that there is abuse of Methadone. But that error in no way changes my philosophy, formed by first-hand experience both professioanlly and as a (now ex) spouse of an addict, that the WOD is one of the most wasteful, ill conceived and partisan government programs in the history of the republic/Federation whatever. I respect your work and you do is a risky job. But our drug policy needs to shift, dramatically, from punitive to therapeutic. If you took the time to read this rather lengthy comment, I thank you.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Mon May 22, 2006 at 02:36:51 PM EST
    Of course, the response of the Bush Madministraton would be a impressively cheery: "135 out of 136 Americans are NOT incarcerated. And those 135 Americans can be proud."

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 02:43:43 PM EST
    Patrick is right (damn, did I just type that!), heroin was hailed as a drug to break the opium addiction. Methadone was hailed as a drug to break heroin addiction. It can work, but only with counseling and life style changes. Just like most treatments for addiction. You can't cure an addiction by substitution. It's a stop gap measure while the other changes (hopefully) take place. I've known H addicts that signed up, got the methadone, sold it and bought H. Ahh, the freemarket at work. In a larger sense; something is seriously wrong with a country that locks of this large a percentage of its population. Especially given the racial disparities of the prison pop.

    People are victims of the disease of addiction.
    The trouble with this statement is that it dismisses the free and voluntary actions of the addict which lead to them contracting this "disease." Addicts do not catch the "disease" of addiction by forgetting to wash their hands often enough, nor is it transmitted from one 1st grader to another on the playground at school. Obviously. People catch the "disease" of addiction by choosing of their own free will to allow themselves to participate in activities that can and do lead to addiction. Perhaps the root "disease" is that of dumb and completely avoidable personal choices?

    ...and if our drug laws stop at least some people from "choosing of their own free will to allow themselves to participate in activities that can and do lead to addiction," and as a result don't become addicts, are the laws really all that dumb?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 03:11:41 PM EST
    People catch the "disease" of addiction by choosing of their own free will to allow themselves to participate in activities that can and do lead to addiction. I disagree. The medical model of addiction is quickly overtaking the moral model, and heredity is increasingly incriminated through research as a source of addictive behavior.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Mon May 22, 2006 at 03:20:19 PM EST
    Che's Lounge-as they say about chasing the american dream: choose your parents wisely

    How can you possibly disagree? Outside of some weird outlier scenerios, if we didn't choose to get involved in taking drugs, we couldn't become drug addicts. I don't argue with you regarding medical/hereditary role in addiction, in fact I support it. My point is addiction is not a "disease" that you innocently "catch" like the flu or a cold. We, as humans, are addictive beings - physically, emotionally, etc. We must choose not to participate in those activities that can and do directly lead to becoming addicted. Especially if we didn't choose our parents wisely. What other solution is there?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#32)
    by Patrick on Mon May 22, 2006 at 03:46:56 PM EST
    Che, Well we disagree. My philosophy was formed by first had experience, both professionally and personally as the current spouse of an ex-addict. That we will continue to disagree on this topic is a given. Thankfully there are two sides to any issue, to keep those who would use it to their advantage in check. My argument would be that those non-violent drug offenders are not first time violators. That's my experience in California. Or if they are, they have violence in their past. Either way, repeat offenders or violent offenders who got caught with hard drugs, they deserve to be where they are. Quitting is a lifestyle change, and it can be done. I agree alcohol is bad....I don't drink it, and you won't see me in here arguing that it should remain legal. For the same reasons I don't think marijuana and other drugs should be legal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    If anyone is interested in thinking further (and deeper, i.e., beyond slogans) about the addiction/free will issue let me be so presumptuous as to recommend Jon Elster's Strong Feelings: Emotion, Addiction, and Human Behavior (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1999). With regard to the notion of alchoholism as a 'disease,' I would recommend Herbert Fingarette's courageous little book, Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease (Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1988). I do think, contra Fingarette, that there have been individually and collectively beneficial by-products and spillover effects as a consequence of calling alcoholism a 'disease' (clients/alcoholics less ashamed to seek help; more funding available for treatment, etc.), however, they may not, in the end, amount to sufficient warrant for attaching such a label to heavy drinking/alchoholism.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    Sorry for the misspelling on 'alcoholism' above (I know, it's just blogging, but I'm neurotic that way).

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:11:15 PM EST
    Thankfully there are two sides to any issue, to keep those who would use it to their advantage in check. Well that's another topic.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:43:17 PM EST
    According to the DOJ 21% of all US prisoners are in for drug offenses. If they weren't - ie., if we had no drug laws - we'd still have incarceration rates of ~580/100,000. Which, if Patrick S's data at the top of the thread is accurate, means we'd still have the #1 incarceration rate in the world. fyi. This is a gross oversimplification. Our drug laws cause more than just drug law offenses. They also lead a lot of other crimes like property crimes, money laundering, even murder, as drug gangs compete with each other and also fight the police. Just those who are in for possession and dealing is still only a small part of how the drug war fills our prisons.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    As a drug user,(for thirty years) I think it would be catastrophic to legalize drugs. Marijuana yes, but if they legalize cocaine, this country will fall into a zombie anarchy. Don't ever,ever push for legalization of cocaine. Why? Because we might one day have a President who's used it? Oh wait... I agree alcohol is bad....I don't drink it, and you won't see me in here arguing that it should remain legal. For the same reasons I don't think marijuana and other drugs should be legal. Two wrongs don't make a right. Are you saying that alcohol should be illegal? Do you not understand what happened during prohibition, where children walked around with flasks of moonshine and entire police precincts were profiting from bootlegging? This is not some abstract argument here. Reality has already weighed in, and prohibition doesn't work in a country that gives its citizens rights. All it does is create a black market to supply the demand of those who partake of that activity anyway.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Mon May 22, 2006 at 05:24:59 PM EST
    Characterizing other peoples problems as being "the result of a free and voluntary choice" is just a fancy way of saying its not my problem. What a moral, philosophical breakthrough and triumph that is. Just go out and get yours and screw everybody else. The libertarian way.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 05:43:19 PM EST
    How can you possibly disagree? Outside of some weird outlier scenerios, if we didn't choose to get involved in taking drugs, we couldn't become drug addicts. Sarcastic, The point that you're missing is that people with addictive personalities will tend to become addicted to something, regardless of whether it's illegal, legal, safe, or unsafe. The most addictive substance anywhere is nicotine. It's more addictive than heroin or cocaine. The reason that things become illegal in our society is not due to its addictiveness, it's because of the perception of the damage it will do to you once you become addicted. This perception is highly subjective and rarely based on actual science (see: marijuana), so our drug laws make very little sense in the end. People with addictive personalities who go to great lengths to avoid addictive substances often develop other types of addictions or compulsive behavior instead. Believing that you can lead an addiction free life just by avoiding addictive substances is a fool's errand. The only way to lead an addiction free life is to learn moderation and to learn that you are in control of your life and that you can't rely on others to take care of you.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 05:50:12 PM EST
    Characterizing other peoples problems as being "the result of a free and voluntary choice" is just a fancy way of saying its not my problem. In many cases, people's problems ARE a result of their own poor choices. In other cases, they're not. Believing either extreme is wrong. The right balance is to separate the two situations, and the best way to do that is to give people the freedom to make their own choices, learn from their mistakes, and for society to provide a safety net for those who simply don't have the ability to help themselves. The people out there who believe that legalizing drugs will lead to chaos tend to believe that the average person is not capable of being in control of their life and that many people who are in control of their lives will one day choose not to be. This is absurd. Only a small percentage of people are actually helpless, but the rest of us know that if we're drunk or high when we're supposed to be at work, that's a problem.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 06:00:04 PM EST
    You may think this is off topic but what the heck: I've always felt superior that I've been a normal weight my whole life. Every time I saw a fat person I thought, 'why don't they just lose some weight. It's a personal choice, just eat less!' Then I lived with a rubenesque woman who became larger. We ate the same things. She got fatter, I stayed my same weight. She felt constantly deprived, I felt fine. do ya think that maybe what we call 'drugs' work the same way? People have different cravings, some food (acceptable), alcohol, (semi-acceptable), heroin (not acceptable) . Addiction is a disease with genetic predispositions. It doesn't matter what the substance is, you can still be addicted. let me phrase it another way; say society wants to charge nicotine, heroin (or name your poison) addicts more because they are a larger drain on society. Now imagine if we treated fat people the same way. Fat people are a much larger drain of our society's resources. Kidney disfunction and dialysis, diabetes and retinal surgery and amputations, transplants, redesigning all the clothes and bus and airline seats. Besides, if we cut down on their food allowance, we might even be able to afford the war on iran. I'm just saying, if you wanna talk about the drain on America's resources, we should be locking up fat people. Does that make any more sense than locking up other folks for their addictions?

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 07:13:01 PM EST
    Sailor, Good point. Overeating is one of the addictions that people tend to get when they try like mad not to expose themselves to any addictive substances.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#43)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 22, 2006 at 07:28:21 PM EST
    Sailor, First line therapy for hypertension? Lifestyle modification. First line therapy for Type II diabetes mellitus? Lifestyle modification. First line therapy for obesity? Lifestyle modification. All three lead to cardiovascular diseases (350K deaths/year), kidney diseases and blindness. The info linked about the methadone "problem" talked about 200 deaths/yr. JM, Sorry to go OT, but this is an old thread gone in interesting directions.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 23, 2006 at 02:12:41 AM EST
    Sailor, Thank you for your post. It eloquently explained my urge to say the obvious: "we're just drawing a line in the sand of what constitutes normal and deviant behavior" I hope we don't persecute the marijuana users or suppliers too much. However we've been dealing in alcohol for a couple milenium now. Not saying it's more or less right on the medicinal values/harms, just saying it's socially more acceptable. All that said, I wouldn't be opposed to legalizing marijuana. However I have noticed a significant impairment of those who regularly use and wouldn't recommend it to friends. Not that alcohol, (a legal source of impairment) is inherintly better, just in my own experience, I've noticed a higher correlation of marijuana use to permanent impairment than alcohol use to permanent impairment. Best wishes to all.

    thehim
    The only way to lead an addiction free life is to learn moderation and to learn that you are in control of your life and that you can't rely on others to take care of you.
    You'll get no argument from me, except for the slight modification that, of the dozens or 100's of addictive behaviors that exist, some must be more destructive than others, so why not avoid completely the most destructive ones?
    This is a gross oversimplification. Our drug laws cause more than just drug law offenses.
    Of course it is, and of course they do. But even a WAG that 50% of our prison pop is due to drug & related offenses, we'd still have a massive prison pop relative to most of the rest of the world. Therefor we must either have 1) more laws 2) stricter enforcement of those laws, or 3) a higher % of people who feel free to flaunt those laws. Or some combination of all three. My personal WAG opinion leans toward #3. I think we have a cultural predisposition toward breaking the rules and taking risks...which I also tangentially posit is one of the reasons we as a nation have been so influential culturally, politically and economically for so long.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:55:59 AM EST
    Therefor we must either have 1) more laws 2) stricter enforcement of those laws, or 3) a higher % of people who feel free to flaunt those laws. Or some combination of all three.
    you forgot one: or many innocent people in jail.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peaches on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:08:21 AM EST
    3) a higher % of people who feel free to flaunt those laws. Or some combination of all three. My personal WAG opinion leans toward #3. I think we have a cultural predisposition toward breaking the rules and taking risks...which I also tangentially posit is one of the reasons we as a nation have been so influential culturally, politically and economically for so long.
    SUO, Interesting theory, but it has some flaws. Our prison system incarcerates a very high percentage of Black Males. By your logic, this would mean that Black Males would be the most influential social group in the country--culturally, politically and economically. I think the larger reason that we have such a high incarceration rates is because we lack the social programs that would even out the income and wealth distributions in our country. We are a country driven by fear and our social policies and programs reflect this. Rather than giving a helping hand to the downtrodden we incarcerate them. This helps lower the inner city unemploymnet rate and removes the most disaffected from our society--including taking away the right to vote. This further cements the divisions between races and class in our country.

    you forgot one: or many innocent people in jail.
    Well, I like to think we don't, but I get your point. Since we're talking US v. The World, do you think our CJ system puts a higher % of innocents in jail than The World? Peaches, There are many (most, perhaps) countries in the world that are far more economically stratified than we, yet have far lower incarceration rates.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:43:49 AM EST
    There are many (most, perhaps) countries in the world that are far more economically stratified than we, yet have far lower incarceration rates.
    I cannot think of one country in the devloped world that are more economically stratified than the US. I cannot think of one country in the developed world that has as high of rates of poverty as the US. I cannot think of one country in the developed world with as high a rate of homelessness as the US. I cannot think of one country in the devloped world with as high a rate of uninsured in health coverage as the US. etc. What am I missing?

    I think what you're missing that this whole converstation is comparing the US to The World, not the "developed" world.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#51)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 23, 2006 at 12:01:19 PM EST
    Peaches is right on point. When comparing the US to the world at large instead of just the developed world, it's also important to consider the inherint danger and corruption which exist in those countries. In Mexico, for example, the incarceration rates may be lower, but the people definitely are not safer and corruption is presumed normal.

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 02:34:19 AM EST
    The reason there are more Young Minorities going to prison is because being a Gangsta is now cool. A lot of people are wearing Scareface T-shirts and it is cool nowadays to be a Gangster. I know a lot of kids who tie being a Gangster to being Macho and cool. It is what is cool in the media and music...so why not? Education is not important any more to a lot peeps. They see education for nerds and white folks. Have you checked out any of the coolest movies and music for inner city kids it's all about being badazz baby! Some kids see stealing, beatin' up peepz and carrying a gun as cool. Scareface is a way of life and that is what Hollywood is pushin'. A lot kids like that style and thug life. That is why a lot peeps are going to prison, it's all part of "Thug Life".

    Re: 1 in Every 136 U.S. Residents Are in Jail (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 05:51:21 AM EST
    With so many black men in prison why is being a thug so glorified? They have made their own situation and are paying the price, but their leaders can only blame racism. Several prominent black men have addressed the situation accurately ( Bill Cosby, Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell) and have been decried as Uncle Toms.