home

Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld?

Cyrus Kar was born in Iran but has lived in the U.S. since he was two years old. A naturalized citizen, he played high-school football in Utah and Washington and then joined the Navy. His dream was to make a movie about an ancient Persian King who championed tolerance and human rights.

When he reached the point of site selection for his film, he was 44 and traveled to Baghdad to research archeological sites. You could probably recite the rest of the story. He got arrested, supposedly because "suspected bomb parts" were in the taxi in which he was riding. He was held for two months in a Baghad jail without charges, then released.

Kar's family and lawyers describe as the frightening netherworld of American military detention in Iraq - charged with no crime but nonetheless unable to gain his freedom or even tell his family where he is being held.

The FBI searched his apartment and not surprisingly, found nothing.

"Saddam Hussein has had more due process than Cyrus Kar," said Mark Rosenbaum, the lead lawyer in the case. "This is a detention policy that was drafted by Kafka."

Ironically, Kar supported the president's decision to "export democracy" to Iraq. As TChris said at the time, "Perhaps he misunderstood the nature of Bush democracy: the kind that reserves autocratic powers to the administration and its military."

Kar was released in July, 2005, after being detained in an Iraqi prison for 7 weeks without charges

TChris explains:

Justifying the detention, military officials claim that Kar represented "an imperative security threat to Iraq" which had been resolved "appropriately." In other words, there was no evidence that Kar was a threat at all, and unfavorable publicity forced the military to release him.

While the military claims that Kar was given a meaningful hearing, and that his release shows how well detention review panels work, Kar's lawyers cut through the spin:

"He was never told what if any charges were being made against him," said one of the lawyers, Mark D. Rosenbaum. "He never had access to a lawyer. He was never told that he passed a lie-detector test. He was virtually incommunicado. That's not a model detention policy. And that was for 50 days - for a guy who got into the wrong cab."

Kar's ordeal was not quite over. In addition to messing with his passport, Kar's military captors were not good custodians of his other property.

Mr. Kar's camera and laptop computer were also missing or stolen, the lawyers said. The school ring he got with his master's degree from Pepperdine University was gone, his relatives said, and even most of his clothes had been lost.

Fortunately, Kar recovered the film he shot for his documentary.

Justifying the detention, military officials claim that Kar represented "an imperative security threat to Iraq" which had been resolved "appropriately." In other words, there was no evidence that Kar was a threat at all, and unfavorable publicity forced the military to release him.

Now, Kar has sued Donald Rumsfeld.

Mr Kar is described as a patriotic American who believed in spreading democracy around the world. A former Navy Seal raised in the western US, he had gone to Iraq to film part of a documentary about an enlightened ancient Persian king. Mr Kar's relatives say they have been able to talk to him by phone several times, and that he has been becoming ncreasingly angry.

Weeks ago, his family said an FBI agent told them he had passed a polygraph test and was cleared of any charges. "Mr Kar is now imprisoned by the United States military in Iraq without the slightest hint of legal authority," said Mark Rosenbaum, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union, which is filing the lawsuit on his behalf.

Kar believes the treatment by the military is a contributing factor to the anger against the U.S that released detainees develop.

"There's a reckless arrest policy," he says, "There's a tremendous amount of humiliation that follows that arrest policy, and I strongly believe that one of the major reasons that the insurgency is growing is because when detainees are released, they come out, and they're looking for retribution. ...They're angry."

Mr. Kar recounts his treatment in Iraq:

While in confinement, the suit states, Kar was hooded, restrained "in painful flexi-cuffs," and "repeatedly threatened, taunted and insulted" by U.S. soldiers. At one point, according to the suit, a soldier at Abu Ghraib slammed Kar's head into a concrete wall.

"Mr. Kar was and remains traumatized by his indefinite and virtually incommunicado detention, in solitary confinement, by the U.S. military without charge," the suit states.

Mr. Kar is seeking more than damages.

The suit -- filed by Rosenbaum and Ranjana Natarajan of the ACLU and volunteer attorney Dan Marmalefsky of the Morrison & Foerster law firm -- has a broader agenda than winning a damages award for Kar. "This action is brought to end the policies and practices of the United States government toward detainees in Iraq to which Cyrus Kar, a United States citizen and Navy veteran, was subjected ... in clear violation" of fundamental principles of due process of law.

The suit asserts that the U.S. military and other government agencies have a policy, pattern and practice of: deliberately failing to provide attorneys to detainees in Iraq; subjecting these persons to lengthy and indefinite detention without bringing charges; deliberately failing to provide detainees access to a court and to their family members; and holding hearings for the detainees that do not conform to the requirements of the U.S. Constitution or the Geneva Convention provisions governing the treatment of prisoners of war and civilians. In addition to Rumsfeld, the defendants includes Gen. George W. Casey, Jr., the commanding general.

I hope Mr. Kar gets a big paycheck from the Government when this is over.

< Announcing the TalkLeft Duke Lacrosse Forums | Four More Soldiers Charged With Iraqi Rape, Murders >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    This is a despicable example of our detainee policies to be sure. But why did you leave out the reason Mr. Kar was detained in the first place? According to press reports, the car Mr. Kar was riding in when he was picked up was found to contain dozens of washing machine timers - the exact same kind of timers insurgents were using to detonate IED's at the time. While this doesn't excuse the military's shameful and illegal treatment of Kar, it does shed a little light on why he was picked up in the first place.

    They Thought.There appears to be a wide discrepency on what the make up of the individual in question. One point is what to do with the individual in question. A obvious blunder by the neocon in charge Rumsfeld. Let's see Rumsfeld weasel his way out of this one.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Andreas on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:31:33 AM EST
    TL wrote: "I hope Mr. Kar gets a big paycheck form the Government when this is over." He should get a "paycheck" from those who are responsible for this crime. But it is more important that all those responsible (such as Donald Rumsfeld) spend some time in prison.

    Do you guys have any idea how silly, self-centered, and concept-poor this complaint makes you sound? People are not "arrested" during a war; they are captured, and their very presence in the war zone creates a powerful presumption that they are somehow involved in the war. If there is associated circumstantial evidence that they are directly involved their fate is unlikely to be pleasant. If Mr. Kar thought he could jump into the middle of it and wander around safely, as if his status as a civilian somehow exempted him from the proceedings, he is egotistical to the point of solipsism and a fool besides. It is a particularly stupid thing to do in a battle where one side makes a point of not wearing uniforms and posing as civilians while fully involved. Getting indignant when he suffers the natural consequences of his asininity just means you share it. A war zone is neither a court proceeding nor a tourist attraction. Trying to act as if it is either is neither "pacifism" nor "exercise of civil rights." What do you want next, grandstands with paid admission and hotdog vendors? Regards, Ric

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:35:43 AM EST
    Frankly, if I believe the guy then I have to wonder where his head was. Going to Baghdad in the middle of a war to shoot a movie about an ancient King?? Just happening to get in the wrong taxi? No wonder the military didn't believe him. Would any reasonable person? Now, fifty days? Sounds like a long time, but I'd say that his background in he US was investigated, plus the taxi driver, etc. When you look at it from that side it isn't all that long. Iraq is not the US. If you want our constitutional protections, then stay in the US.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:42:43 AM EST
    This is the freedom we are exporting? No right to know the charges against you, no right to face your accusers, chained and caged for 7 weeks? I guess we should all check the trunks of the cabs we hail if this is our version of liberal democracy. Freedom is in trouble.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:47:30 AM EST
    When you look at it from that side it isn't all that long.
    Look at it from Mr. Kar's side...it is an eternity. Fair point about Iraq not being the US...but it happens here too...Jose Padilla comes to mind. Due process has seen better days all over. I'm troubled by the worldwide trend of caging humans at the drop of a hat.

    But, but....you guys keep saying Baghdad is safe, one email I got implies it is safer than D.C. Now you are saying it is a "war zone", and people get killed there all the time, and there are no Doritos there. Well, which is it? flip-floppers......

    Here's an article from last year that sheds more light on the ordeal. He's right. The system is broken.
    How a Trip to Film in Iraq Ended in a Military Jail Cell Mr. Kar said they were stopped and questioned by the Iraqi security forces almost daily, but were always sent on their way after showing their passports and visas. He said his Iranian passport and Iranian cameraman were liabilities with some Iraqi policemen and soldiers still bitter about the Iran-Iraq war. Still, Mr. Kar said, he was more concerned that insurgents might find his American passport and Veterans Affairs identity card. ... "It was not as dangerous as I thought it would be," Mr. Kar said of Iraq. "The place was crawling with journalists and foreigners. But they had more money, and they could afford the security." ... Within little more than an hour after the filmmakers were driven to a police substation, Mr. Kar said, the Iraqi police officials appeared to have determined that the 35 timers belonged to the driver, not his passengers. When two American soldiers walked into the police station, Mr. Kar recalled thinking: "Yay! The cavalry's here." Instead, the three men were handcuffed, blindfolded and led away to an adjacent American operating base without even a question, he said. About 2 a.m., Mr. Kar said, he was finally brought in for an interrogation by two soldiers he presumed to be from military intelligence. ... "You're in big trouble," he recalled the younger soldier telling him as he protested his innocence. "You're an American terrorist enemy combatant. You're the next John Walker Lindh." ... After interrogating the driver, Mr. Kar said, the older soldier told him that the driver had admitted the timers were his. But when the three men were taken to the interrogation room again the next day, it was to be photographed together kneeling before a map of Iraq on which their camera equipment and the 35 timers had been carefully arranged. ... Mr. Kar said the F.B.I. agents who interviewed him appeared to have been convinced of the truth of his story after little more than an hour of conversation on May 22; they helped him call his aunt in Los Angeles two days later, then never spoke to him again. He passed a lie-detector test around June 10, he said, yet was not released for another month. ... On July 4, as lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California prepared a suit demanding Mr. Kar's freedom, he was brought before a "detainee status board" of three military officers. ... The officers presented only one piece of evidence against him, the photograph of the three men kneeling with the timers. They said other evidence in the case was classified.


    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Punchy on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:26:18 AM EST
    A war zone is neither a court proceeding nor a tourist attraction. Trying to act as if it is either is neither "pacifism" nor "exercise of civil rights." What do you want next, grandstands with paid admission and hotdog vendors?
    Congress never officially declared war. Thus we're not officially at war. So, no, it's not a "war zone". If you're going to play the semantics game, then you'd better be correct. And you're not. So...Iraq is now a democracy, with a democratically elected gov't, except that there's no rule of law and the U.S. military still does whatever the hell it wants to, even though there's an Iraqi gov't in place. Yeah, that makes sense.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:31:17 AM EST
    Punchy - Quit parsing. Iraq is a war zone. Is now and was in 2005. kdog - I worry about you. Iraq isn't the US and if you willingly go into a war zone and bad things happen to you, don't complain. As I said. Fifty days to investigate such an outlandish story is pretty good.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#12)
    by jen on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:51:55 AM EST
    It's a war zone, so this justifies allowing the soldiers to just forget everything they were taught in training and act in such an unproffesional way, in a manner calculated to pissof any innocents enough to make more insurgents. Good plan.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:54:25 AM EST
    Don't worry about me ol' buddy...worry about freedom. If we are not dilligent, we may end up with the Iraqi version of American democracy in America. I say when in doubt, let 'em out. It's the only humane way, the only free way.

    The war on Iraq ended three years ago, shortly after Baghdad was captured. Since then we've been engaged in occupation. The continued use of the term war rather than occupation allows the Bush administration and it's fans to escape the bloody reality of the mess they've unnecessarily created.

    I was Mr. Kar's neighbor, although at the time I didn't know this story, and I saw the FBI turning over his apt. My friend and I were walking our dogs and we wondered what could possibly merit 15 or so FBI agents! I found out the next month as another neighbor of mind ran into Mr. Kar & he told her the story. I just know him as the smiling guy who liked to toss the football in the street with another guy, who always said "hi" when I walked my dog and who disappeared suddenly for 2 months. I hope he wins this suit. I have my doubts, but I truly hope he wins. And huge props to the ACLU for saving him. Can you imagine what he went through? Good lord.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:21:25 AM EST
    Jen - He was picked up, questioned, held, investigatd and released after 50 days. Now. Is your complaint the time involved, or the fact that he was picked up, questioned, held and investigated? Did you note the 30 timers they found in the taxi? Did you note the really weak story he had? I think everything was done correctly, and given the situation, fairly promptly..

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:23:52 AM EST
    Quit parsing words? The WOT, enemy combatant status, terrorist, are all words that have been invented by traitors. The lawyers and corporate militarists parse words regularly in order to deceive the American public and International community. The War On Terror is a well crafted phrase that knows no geographical boundaries. The war zone is not limited to Baghdad, it is anywhere and everywhere the masters want it to be. PPJ, himself a aspiring spinmeister, knows very well that this administration and its devotees are all about parsing words and the power gained through control of language. PPJ regularly tells us that voicing antiwar sentiments endangers our troops and that Journalists should be jailed for doing their job. Parsing words is ppj's speciality. To tell others who speak the truth that they are parsing words is mendacious and hypocritical.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:33:08 AM EST
    Don't sound so bad the way you tell it Jim...but think about what "held", "picked up", and "questioned" feels like for an innocent free man. Think about what they really mean. Ever been chained, blindfolded, interrogated, caged? It's bad enough when other governments do it, It's intolerable when mine does it. The archeological treasures of Iraq don't disappear because we are occupying the joint. Some people's passions take them to dangerous places. Life goes on even in occupation zones. Any ruling authority that acts out Kafka deserves scorn.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:36:02 AM EST
    I'd like to add...the supposedly liberated Iraq shares too much of a resemblance to Saddam's Iraq imo.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:59:21 AM EST
    Squeaky - I parse? Is calling for journalists to not injure the country parsing? Is saying that anti-war demonstrations encourage the terrorists in Iraq to think that if they hang on they can get a political victory parsing? Seems rather straightforward to me. As for the "War on Terror," would you prefer, "War on Terrorists from SA, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Palestine, Inodnesia, Phillipines, etc...?" The facts are plain. The terrorists are a loosely organized group with members from many nations, mostly ME, financed by various groups and some countries. i.e. Iran. And as far as parsing goes, I seem to remember that it was you that declared you didn't need truth. kdog - I again note. The guy got picked up in a taxi with 30 timers that are used in various bombs. He has a weak story. He is questioned, held, investigated and released. I ask you. Is your problem with the time involved, or the procedure?

    If an innocent US citizen is held for 50 days, how long do you think random innocent Iraqis are held for? And since Iraqis are much more common than American in Iraq, how many innocent Iraqis are languishing in prison now? How does that affect our battle for Iraqi hearts and minds?

    In the wingers way of thinking, those who exposed and fought against the nazi death camps and the Russian gulags, were injuring their countries.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:11:03 AM EST
    Ric Locke, Civilians are not captured during a war, they are arrested or taken hostage, both of which seem to apply here. Do you have any idea how complacent you seem? How comfortable you seem with the satus quo of this miserably failed policy? Tell me, when was the last time during this fiasco of an unprovoked war you thought to yourself "Boy, have we f*cked up"? And in case you didn't know, spectators watching war is nothing new, happened all the time in the civil war. But that was back when soldiers felt it was their duty to die BEFORE civilians. Now more protection is given to the military than civilian populations. Study up, my friend.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:29:55 AM EST
    KCinDC - Ah, no one knew he was innocent until after he was questioned and investigated.. You do see the difference, don't you. And one more time. If you go Iraq and get picked in a cab with 30 timers of the type used to make bombs, don't be surprised if you are held and investigated. Dadler - And many of those watching owned slaves, so I don't think we want to say that customs then should be accepted as customs now.

    ... spectators watching war is nothing new, happened all the time in the civil war. Yeah. At Bull Run they brought picnic lunches -- and ran like rabbits when the Confederates took the field. Several were killed by stray rounds, and nobody convened a war-crimes tribunal. I'm happy with that example in this connection. And anyway I thought you guys were good liberal pacifists. Looking at it from what I understand to be that viewpoint, I can't think of very much more despicable than a war tourist. "Oooh, look, Fred, his guts are hanging out!" "Dang, Mabel, give me the damn camera right now!" I'm pretty sure most American soldiers agree with me, and I strongly suspect that one of the reasons Mr. Kar was held so long is that the military couldn't be bothered to look after the comfort and security of an arrogant elitist blundering around on an Iranian passport who sprang his American citizenship like a rabbit out of a hat when he got in trouble. --Which is another thing. A Roman citizen was entitled to special privileges anywhere the Legions went. Are you trying to tell me that we aren't being imperial enough to suit you? That an American passport is supposed to be a "get out of jail free" card anywhere in the world? That's sure what the line of thought defending Mr. Kar is leading toward. The war on Iraq ended three years ago, shortly after Baghdad was captured. So you're happy with the "Mission Accomplished" banner, then? Funny. Osama says it's a war. Zarqawi said it was a war, when he was around to say anything. Maliki says it's a war. In fact, everybody on the other side or on the ground in the area says it's a war, and everybody who says it isn't is safely ensconced in an ivory tower of some variety in a Western country. Regards, Ric

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:59:35 AM EST
    Jim, Huh? My point wasn't about slavery or customs that are obivously not good, but merely about spectator war having a history. Your obviously inarguable point aside, the greater irony is if we DID have a chance to really SEE what goes on in our wars, not as voyeurs but as civilian controllers, if we weren't treated as children who should be protected from the reality of our, in this case, failed policy of malevolence, if military censors didn't rule the day, then I'd suggest we'd have a public much less willing to accept or tolerate what too many are now. Which is the entire point of censoring the public's view and access to information. It ain't to protect any soldier, it's too keep the free American public in the dark, to keep enough of the masses compliant enough to continue. Ultimately, it's goal is to suppress informed and intense dissent -- which, strangely, is actually the only thing freedom REQUIRES. We are treated like children, too fragile to see and know the truth. The last time reality crept out about a war, oh yeah, it was Vietnam. And before you start in on how much you vehemently disagree on that, let me remind you of this: the American people, ultimately, have the right to be wrong. Again, that is all freedom is. Period. When that choice is taken away from them by corrupt leaders more afraid of public opinion than the "enemy", who see reality as something to stroke and pitch rather than accept, well, our free country has become that much less free and much more like the old communist states who just airbrushed photos in and out, rewrote history that they didn't like, citizens they didn't like.

    Ric, what on earth are you talking about? The only reason we know about Kar at all is that he's an American, and if he'd been an Iraqi he'd no doubt have been treated much worse and still be in Abu Ghraib, with little prospect of release. There are no doubt hundreds or thousands of innocent Iraqis abused and imprisoned for every American like Kar that got caught up in the insanity. And that's exactly the problem. Iraqis know what's going on -- they know what's happening to their friends and relatives. Tactics like these make the population hate the occupying power more. How do you see that as leading to a good outcome in Iraq?

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    Ric, Do you always let others determine your definitions for you? East Germany used to call itself the German Democratic Republic, did you think they WERE democratic? Ever occur to you that sometimes you don't let others dictate the violent game you play, especially when they haven't any chance of invading your nation and taking it over? Have any idea what an imagination is? No no, let's raise these thugs to the level of nations invading us, start bombing and killing in places that had NOTHING to do with it...come on, man, put on your thinking cap. We've made a choice to play their game. That's f*cking dumb. As for your points on spectators, you made the first comment, I merely pointed out something historical. You then missed (or I missed explaining) that I was making a larger satircal point about the censorship of reality, but I probably should've elaborated. Read my above post to Jim for what that elaboration on how SOMEONE better be a spectator or we're ALL in the dark. And I'm sorry, I don't agree that war journalism and its importance should be compromised to make things more pleasent for soldiers. Reporting the reality of this war to the ENTIRE FREE AMERICAN NATION for the purposes of a truly informed and critical citizenry, far outweighs turning off the cameras because our boys are getting bloodied. I think they'd rather their bloody reality be told. Or do you think they'd rather the American people get a continually skewed, censored and candy-ass view of their reality? Oh, and MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. No one here believed it, because we had no post-war plan. The army vs. army war was over, the much more difficult war was beginning. But our dear leaders and their incompetent delusions didn't HAVE a plan for that part, still don't. No one felt the army vs. army war would last, EVERYONE knew the aftermath, winning the "peace" (oh is that what this is?) would be infinitely more difficult and require real imagincation and sacrifice. Again, they were f*cking dumb as careless as bumbling children. And why is an immigrant filmmaker an elitist? That's not a logical leap. Certainly he may have been a tad naive, but elitist? Doesn't fly. Peace, my fellow free American.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 02:22:37 PM EST
    Ric, what on earth are you talking about? The only reason we know about Kar at all is that he's an American,
    Actually KCinDC, it seems that the only reason he was released was that, early on, the FBI let him make a phone call and the ACLU fought for his release. He was lucky. No one is safe from the American government these days. This administration has blackened our name. We must vote them out and hold the war criminals accountable in order to regain out standing in the world.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#30)
    by jen on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 02:32:20 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ One of these days you will stop evading the issue
    "He was never told what if any charges were being made against him," said one of the lawyers, Mark D. Rosenbaum. "He never had access to a lawyer. He was never told that he passed a lie-detector test. He was virtually incommunicado.
    While in confinement, the suit states, Kar was hooded, restrained "in painful flexi-cuffs," and "repeatedly threatened, taunted and insulted" by U.S. soldiers. At one point, according to the suit, a soldier at Abu Ghraib slammed Kar's head into a concrete wall.
    Mr. Kar's camera and laptop computer were also missing or stolen, the lawyers said. The school ring he got with his master's degree from Pepperdine University was gone, his relatives said, and even most of his clothes had been lost.

    Squeaky, don't you think the facts that Kar got to make a phone call, that he called the ACLU, and that the ACLU fought for him have something to do with the fact that he's an American?

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 03:01:35 PM EST
    Squeaky, don't you think the facts that Kar got to make a phone call, that he called the ACLU, and that the ACLU fought for him have something to do with the fact that he's an American?
    Absolutely, but had the FBI not thought him innocent we may have not heard of him for a very long time.

    Squeaky, you wrote:
    The War On Terror is a well crafted phrase that knows no geographical boundaries. The war zone is not limited to Baghdad, it is anywhere and everywhere the masters want it to be.
    You are so right; every day we are fed an endless stream of carefully crafted phrases (to put it politely). On Friday, I listened to Bush spinning the Hamdan decision, making the ridiculous assertion that the SCOTUS, being silent on Gitmo, were agreeing with the administration's actions. (By the way, they were also silent on Flag Burning and Gay Marriage, so I guess they must approve of those too :). In his response, Jim gives us another such phrase:
    The facts are plain. The terrorists are a loosely organized group with members from many nations, mostly ME, financed by various groups and some countries. i.e. Iran.
    Talk about BS! What on earth is the definition of a loosely organized group? How do you decide if someone is a member, or not? How organized does it have to be before it is too organized to qualify? How unorganized can it be before it is not "a group"? The truth is that this is another amorphous phrase open to any interpretation that its user finds convenient. Nobody is by definition excluded, it includes (to borrow your phrase) anyone and everyone its masters want it to include. So it is a completely meaningless collection of words. So why not just say "people"? Because then they could not be called "members". And just saying, "The terrorists are people from many nations ..." doesn't sound nearly as impressive, does it. Instead we have "a group" with "members", thereby justifying a "war". But the whole idea of a "war" with an "enemy" just evaporates once you translate the carefully crafted spin into plain English. And if we must declare wars against abstract concepts (like terror), then diverting some of those billions of dollars to the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty would produce far greater net benefits to humanity.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 04:56:24 PM EST
    Cymro- nice deconstruction of ppj's parsing. So much seems to be about language these days. The steaks of a bj were rather insignificant compared to the manucured verbiage this administration pumps out on a regular basis.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:37:23 PM EST
    Dadler - Here's what you wrote in defense of people thinking they can go into a war zone, wander around, and then yell when they get in trouble.
    And in case you didn't know, spectators watching war is nothing new, happened all the time in the civil war
    My comment was spot on. Some of those people watching, owned slaves. Times and culture changes. Owning slaves, and watching a series of terrorist attacks is no longer considered the thing to do. Trust me. Cymro writes:
    Talk about BS! What on earth is the definition of a loosely organized group?
    Hmmm, so you can't understabd that you can have groups that are loosely organized and others that are tightly organized... You know, at one time I thought you were intelligent. Jen - One of these days you will understand that people suspected of being terrorists and arrested in Iraq do have the same rights as someone arrested in the US. He was arrested/captured. He was questioned. The fact that he had been arrested/captured in a taxi with 30 timers of the type used for bomb manufacture and had a very weak story...in country to research making a movie about enlightened ancient king practically screamed TERRORIST. I mean, not even Hollywood would accept that as a reason to have him there for a movie... That he was held, investigated and then released says it all. Is your problem the time it took, or the fact that he was arrested? If it is the latter I think we understand you quite well. What I think is that is a shinning example of us going the extra mile.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:13:21 PM EST
    Jim, You miss my point entirely. Completely. But it's nothing new. You are arguing the inarguable about owning slaves and watching terrorism for pleasure, something no sentient being would disagree with, BUT THAT IS NOT MY POINT. Sigh. My point is with censorship of war reporting. Do you think we have that censorship and lack of reporting now because of evolved standards of decency? Are you nuts? We have it because the military decided it's better to control the press than let them be free. It's better to filter and edit reality and truth than to treat the American public with respect and dignity and pull no punches. Because then, well, the emperor would have no skin, much less clothes.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jen on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:18:39 PM EST
    Jim why are you ducking the issue?

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:21:36 PM EST
    Add Jim, If war demonstrators embolden terrorists, then how much greater, logic dictates, is the unbearably stupid and deluded spreading of war and violence, and the willfull ignoring of post-war planning, to a country having nothing to do with our terror problems? And don't parse, Mr. Chips.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:48:16 PM EST
    Arthur has a post that also addresses language, in particular language that traps you in the wrong paradigm. Debating whether or not Cyrus Kar should have been in a Iraq is a meaningless. As Arthur puts it
    Iraq was no threat to us, and our leaders knew it. Therefore, the war and invasion were and are immoral and absolutely unjustified.... .....The war and occupation were and are completely wrong, and nothing will ever make them right. End of story.
    Some want to blame Kar and shift the debate. We have occupied that country and are killing, jailing, and torturing its people. Anyone who looks like they may be Arab or Persian is is assumed to be a terrorist. In other words most of the people living or traveling in Iraq. Who are we liberating and from what? Talk about spin. It is well past time to leave. via C&L

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:04:46 PM EST
    "WE'RE IN A WAR!!!!!" But there's no enemy to capture. Just civilians. If you are in a war against civilians, what is that called? Rabbit hole indeed.

    Jim, You should work for the whitehouse. Your brand of hypocrisy and contradiction would work well there. Seriously with the amount of BS you spew on this site, you might as well make some money BSing full time, as the people who lead your country do.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#42)
    by desertswine on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:44:30 PM EST
    Meanwhile in the war we should have won, but didn't.. you remember, Afganistan? Death Trap.
    "We need to realise that we could actually fail here," warns Lieutenant-General David Richards, British commander of the Nato-led peacekeeping force.


    Posted by Che's Lounge If you are in a war against civilians, what is that called?
    Quagmire? War crimes is probably the most accurate term or phrase.

    PPJ:
    You know, at one time I thought you were intelligent.
    That must have been during our honeymoon period. But now that you know me better, and I you, if you ever approve of something I say, I'll be worried that I've lost my reason. Just as light appears brighter in contrast with darkness, sense is more apparent when placed alongside nonsense. And I can count on your comments to provide that contrast.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:14:55 PM EST
    Here's a US citizen, carrying a US passport with a valid Iraq visa. So when he was picked up, why wouldn't he be allowed to contact the US Embassy? An American being deprived of their rights by the US military simply because they're under suspicion in Iraq? So I take it that our constitutional rights are to some degree being suspended by our own government when we are in a war zone or anywhere outside of the United States. I wonder how long it will be before our rights as citizens will be suspended within the US borders. I also wonder how many other Americans are being held under similar circumstances around the world. How can you confront evidence, when the evidence is classified? It's a nice little Catch-22. It also seems obvious that the Iraqis and the current Iraqi government are little more than puppets under the control of the American occupation, otherwise such individuals would be able to appeal directly to Iraqi officials, who would have final say over their status. JimakaPPJ Is it a crime to own a timer in Iraq? Were these egg timers alarm clocks or what? IUD's in Iraq are not being detonated with timers, they're being detonated with cell phones, beepers or trip switches. Perhaps if you were being held in solitary confinement with your rights suspended, you wouldn't think everything was so fair.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:28:43 PM EST
    Apparently it was washing machine timers. So I suppose anyone who has any kind of clockwork device could be accused of carrying bomb making parts. Or anyone carrying wires. Or anyone carrying a battery. Etc.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:11:01 AM EST
    Apparently it was washing machine timers. So I suppose anyone who has any kind of clockwork device could be accused of carrying bomb making parts. Or anyone carrying wires. Or anyone carrying a battery. Etc.
    Or anyone wearing a casio watch.

    That was one cool watch they were issuing to those guys back then.

    Re: Who is Cyrus Kar and Why is he Suing Rumsfeld? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 03:28:57 PM EST
    Rumi, How about "Genocide"?

    some of this is pretty funny. Let's see: the protagonist in this little psycho drama decides to wander about in Iraq and gets arrested. the prinicple weapon used by the insurgents is the IED, many of which require some pretty crude electronics. 30 washing machine timers sounds mighty strange to me. Was the taxi driver moonlighting at the local baghdad coin op laundry? The protagonist become seperated from his PC. Again, given the enormous amount of info we've obtained from thunbnail drives, PC's and even cell phones, it's not surprising that the PC would be scanned. or, you know, it might have been stolen by an Iraqi detainee. Whaddaya think? It's possible isn't it? As for catch and release, well fifty days hardly seems like a long time. Lt Col Eric Kurilla who was made famous by Michael Yon was shot and seriously wounded by a man who had been in US custody just days before. I'm sure that the wife and family of Lt Col Kurilla wish that we'd been just a tad more thorough in our vetting of that murderous madman. In fact catch and release is a serious sore point for many of the people now serving in Iraq. We're being too nice and letting too many bad guys go to avoid detaining a few people inappropriately is the general opinion. it's a tough balancing act, needless to say. so yeah, let's let this one go to court. america needs a few more frivolous law suits.