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Libby: Government Files Sentencing Guideline Calculations

Earlier I wrote about the Government's sentencing memorandum for Scooter Libby, and noted that it would be filing an explanation of how it calculated Libby's guidelines at 30 to 37 months. I've uploaded the newly filed calculations here, and I have to say, I disagree with them. As does the Probation Department.

It's a very complicated calculation because instead of just using the perjury, obstruction and false statement guidelines, it asks the Court to cross-reference those guidelines with the higher guidelines for violations of the IIPA and Espionage Act.

More....

It spends a lot of time explaining (and submits 30 pages of exhibits in a separate document, which I will upload if there's interest expressed in the comments) why Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert agent and why, because the investigation pertained to whether there was a violation of the IIPA and Espionage Acts, Libby should be sentenced as an Accessory After the Fact to those offenses.

According to the Government, the Probation Department did not believe those guidelines should apply because there was no evidence in the proceedings that Valerie Plame Wilson was covert. The Judge expressly said that wasn't an issue at the trial. The Government says, nonetheless, that's what its investigation was about and Libby lied and obstructed it.

Even though Libby hasn't filed a Sentencing Statement yet, from the Government's calculation memo, it's clear Team Libby laid out its position in its non-publicly filed Objections to Pre-Sentence Report. No doubt they were happy with the Probation Department's calculations. I'll bet they file a response now though.

Also, according to the Government, Libby is asking for a downward departure from the guidelines. His reasons:

  • His record of public service
  • His loss of his law license
  • His financial loss due to legal expenses. It appears he is also asking the court to consider the legal fees to be incurred with civil suits filed against him.
  • Non-likelihood of recidivism.
  • Aberrant Behavior (a single act or course of action in an otherwise unblemished life)

And, in case you were wondering, his legal fees in the criminal case, according to the Probation Department, exceeded $5 million, not including sentencing.

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    Can't say (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Deconstructionist on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:14:06 AM EST
      that I'd agree that the "calculations" recommended by the government are incorrect.

      The issue is what standard must the court use to determine if the cross-reference applies.

      (One thing to not is that Fitzgerald is now categorically asserting that Plame was a "covert agent" within the meaning of IIPA.)

      Essentially, the government's position is that the cross reference to §2X3.1 (Accessory after the fact-- which then calls for a c-r to the guideline applicable to the  offense that the investigation concerned and an OL 6 below the one that guideline would establish)must be applied whether or not it proves the offense it was investigating was committed so long as it shows that perjury/FS were intended to obstruct an investigation into the possibility the underlying alleged offense was committed. In other words, that the cross-reference applies even if no violation of IIPA was committed by anyone because Libby knew that potential violations of IIPA were being investigated. I think that as Fitzgeralsd asserts the language of the guidelines and case law gives him a lot of support for that postion.

      Is that fair? No. Is it the law? Probably, and it's the type 6th Amendment issue that brought Booker. But, in Booker, the SC did not throw out the guidelines or call for them to be "calculated" in line with 6th Amendment principles. It just said that imposition of a sentence within the applicable  guidelines range  cannot be mandatory under the 6th amendment-- but instructed lower courts to continue "calculating" the guidelines as before (including grounds for departures withing the USSG framework) and then determine if a "variance" sentence is warranted.

      In a theoretical sense, the application of the  § 2X3.1 c-r  in the absence of proof of the underlying offense  is "more fair" in a case involving offenses relating to the obstruction of justice than in other types of cases. Why?  Because in obstruction type cases the very act that is the crime for which one is being sentenced  makes proving the underlying offense more difficult.

      Maybe more compelling than all that, is the possibility we will have a contested sentencing hearing where Fitzgerald feels the need to put on as much as evidence as he can that the IIPA was violated. that would be WAY more interesting than was the trial where that was not the issue.

     

    Fitzgerald (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:44:25 AM EST
     is currently arguing that he need not prove (even by a preponderance standard at sentencing) that a violation of the  IIPA was committed (by anyone) in order for the Court to apply the 2X3.1 cross reference.

      If the Court agrees with that it could apply the c-r without requiring evidence concerning the IIPA allegations. Or, if the court disagrees with that, Fitzgerald could decide it is not worth the effort to attempt to introduce evidence about it for a few months difference in the guidelines.

      Or, the Court could rule that some showing regarding IIPA is required to asupport the c-r and fitzgerald could introduce evidence concerning Plame's outing (who, what when, where, why). Plame's status has now been declassified but her status is just part of the case.

       Even if she is covert within the statute that does not make disclosing her identity a crime unless the disclosure was by a person who did it based on knowledge gained due to his access to classified materials and with the intent of disclosing the identity of a  person known to be a covert agent.

       I've always felt that the difficulty of proving those elements is why no one was prosecuted under IIPA.

      Now, Fitzgerald is saying that even if we can't prove a that person with classified access learned Plame's identity and status and intentionally disclosed it, Libby should be sentenced as an accessory after the fact to an IIPA violation because HIS INTENT was to obstruct an investigation he knew concerened a possible IIPA violation.

      With regard to  convictions -- it is the law in federal courts and most states that one can be convicted as an accessory without the conviction of a principal, but the underlying crime must have been committed.

       Sentencing is different than finding guilt. One thing that is interesting is the difference in the language of the guidelines for perjury and obstruction:

    § 2J1.3 (perjury etc.)
     *
    (c) Cross Reference

    (1) If the offense involved perjury, subornation of perjury, or witness bribery in respect to a criminal offense, apply §2X3.1 (Accessory After the Fact) in respect to that criminal offense, if the resulting offense level is greater than that determined above.
    *

    § 2J1.2 (obstruction of justice)
    *

    (c) Cross Reference

    (1) If the offense involved obstructing the investigation or prosecution of a criminal offense, apply §2X3.1 (Accessory After the Fact) in respect to that criminal offense, if the resulting offense level is greater than that determined above.
    *
    *

      That might seem to be splitting hairs, but I think the boldened language in the obstruction guideline allows for a very  strong argument that it is not necessary to prove the underlying criminal offense was in fact committed. the argument might be somewhat less persuasive with reagard to the perjury language but it is still tenable.

     These types of cases are obviously very rare (both because obstruction and perjury prosecutions are not common AND because cases where one is alleged to be an accessory for sentencing purposes to an offense that has not been shown to have been committed are extremely uncommon)  and the law is not entirely clear, but I think Fitzgerald's logic is sound given the way the guidelines have always allowed for very broad attribution of relevant conduct based on  the conduct of other people in joint undertakings which did not result in conviction,   and the language of these guidelines helps his argument.

     

    Sentence Calculated to Disturb! (4.00 / 1) (#20)
    by JM Hanes on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:40:48 PM EST
    I don't have the training to discern whether or not Fitzgerald accurately represents the citations in his Sentencing Calculations, but I was pretty stunned by the ramifications -- to which you, yourself alluded in a previous thread:
    Surprisingly, to me, over the contrary finding of the Probation Department, they are asking the Court to apply the guideline for the IIPA and Espionage Act, under the theory that cross-referencing guidelines is permitted because the investigation in which Libby lied and obstructed justice pertained to those offenses, even though no one was charged. I totally disagree with that.
    As Fitzgerald argues it, a prosecutor could completely mislead a potential defendant as to the specifics and the seriousness of the crime under investigation. If the eventual defendant believed the prosecutor's exagerrated claims, then upon conviction for obstruction or perjury, he could essentially be sentenced under the relevant guidelines as an accessory after the fact -- to the crime he thought they were investigating.

    Regardless of how one feels about the outcome here where Libby is concerned, I believe Fitzgerald has been setting precedents throughout that should concern every last one of us.

    Related Exhibits (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:53:31 AM EST
    Are here. Also at emptywheel there is an interesting discussion about releasing the flood of  mitigation letters sent to Judge Walton on Libby's behalf.

    It seems clear that these letters should be released so we can see who supported criminal Libby, on what basis,  and who didn't.

    Plame Covert (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:26:27 AM EST
    Commenter jeff gets to the point addressing Toesening's perpetual wingnut spin that has been echoed over and over by ppj et al here at TL.
    The significance here (PDF) is that we've got a flat declarative sentence from Fitzgerald that they believed Plame was covert under IIPA. And that means that Toensing et al are simply flat wrong.

    Because her argument is not that Plame was not covert, which I'm sure she'll somehow manage to keep claiming. Her argument has been that Fitzgerald and the investigators knew early on that Plame was not covert, and therefore IIPA could not even conceivably have been violated, and therefore the entire premise of the investigation was flawed and it should have been terminated immediately, thereby eliminating the very possibility of Libby committing the acts for which he has now been convicted and showing the inappropriateness of the whole thing.

    But that is just simply wrong, we now can say with certainty. It is the premise of Toensing's argument that is simply wrong. Fitzgerald and the investigators became convinced early on that Plame was covert under IIPA, so the remaining questions were what the relevant actors knew about her status and what their intent was in disclosing classified information about her to reporters.



    Parent
    Squeaky (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:05:37 PM EST
    No, that does not mean Toesing is wrong.

    Parent
    Yes it does (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:38:52 PM EST
    Read the link and the pdf. Then get back to me.

    Parent
    squaky - No need to. (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 04:16:16 PM EST
    Sigh...

    One of the requirements is that she must have been involved in a covert assignment outside the US within the past 5 years.

    And that wouldn't be a long weekend in Paris..

    So far I have seen no proof....

    Parent

    la, la, la, I can't hear you ... (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:37:31 PM EST
    ...  [said with fingers in ears]

    gee, if you won't look at the proof then you won't see the proof. The cia said she was covert, the USA said she was covert.  she was covert.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:43:00 PM EST
    My turn...

    Got proof?

    Let's see it!!

    Date, place, length...

    Parent

    apparently ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat May 26, 2007 at 06:09:18 PM EST
    ... the term 'covert' is lost on you.

    it doesn't matter how many links we've provided over the years, and the ones provided in this thread. You refuse to read them and believe an op-ed by a bushlicker over the truth.


    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 06:15:54 PM EST
    No, what is lost on you is that to be a Covert Agent, one must meet certain requirements.

    It is a law thingee passed by Congress, signed by the Pres, etc.

    Hope that isn't toooooooooooo complicated for you.

    BTW - Note the difference between covert and Covert...

    Parent

    Read The PDF (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:16:16 PM EST
    Court Exhibits on the matter. PDF

    Don't worry, you do not have to do too much reading, the question of Plames covert status is cleared up on the first page of thirty supporting pages. .

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:16:27 PM EST
    The question that has not been answered is the true nature of her travel, and the length.

    I repeat. The purpose of the law is to prevent a number of "covert" agents from being in the US.

    TDY trips are not "assigmnents."

    Perhaps at some point in the future this point will be adjucted. At this time I see no evidence that she  was doing anything that required her to be "covert."

    Parent

    ahhahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:54:17 PM EST
    Covert (none / 0) (#46)
    by Kewalo on Sun May 27, 2007 at 06:01:38 PM EST
    How ridiculous that you think that the CIA would publicize when and where Plame went when she traveled overseas. She was covert, get it? When and where she went is secret. Covert? Secret? Hmmmm...

    The CIA doesn't have to prove it to us, but it seems to me that Fitzgerald and the judge have no doubt she was covert. They got proof, we don't get proof. That is the way that covert thing works.

    Parent

    et al (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:07:21 PM EST
    with the higher guidelines for violations of the IIPA and Espionage Act.

    In the meantime the NYT has exposed another covert plan of action against our enemies..

    Wait a minute (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Repack Rider on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    In the meantime the NYT has exposed another covert plan of action against our enemies..

    The plan is only "covert" if it has been deployed outside the United States in the last five years, so unless it was, no harm, no foul.

    I believe that is the standard you have applied to Ms. Plame.

    Parent

    notice he can't provide a link (none / 0) (#11)
    by Sailor on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:39:27 PM EST
    Sailor (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 06:11:38 PM EST
    Good grief. The law was posted so many times that I would have thought even you would have seen it.

    Parent
    got a link, or just making $hit up again (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:42:29 PM EST
    In the meantime the NYT has exposed another covert plan of action against our enemies..


    Parent
    still no link ... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sun May 27, 2007 at 12:08:48 PM EST
    ... so I guess he's just lying ... again.

    Parent
    Sailor (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 12:54:01 PM EST
    alas... The NYT was second on this one..

    First place honors go to ABC..

    Beating NYT to a leak....

    Undoubtedly the Cubs will win the '07 Series...

    Oh... BTW - Try Google

    You know it's that search engine thingeee available on the Internet...

    And most people can use it....

    Most.....

    Parent

    still lying about the NYT article I see. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Sun May 27, 2007 at 01:49:10 PM EST
    no links and all lies.

    Parent
    RePack - No (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:55:35 PM EST
    that is the law for a covert agent retain their status as covert/

    It has nothing to do with a covert plan, which may have any number of covert, non-covert and other associated agents and organizations involved.

    Since you are so parnoid about the Feds, you should understand that the 5 years qualifications is there to prevent the CIA from keeping covert agents in the US for uses that the Left would find objectionable.


    Parent

    Read the Link (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:18:19 PM EST
    PDF  Page one.

    Parent
    Squeaky (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:17:42 PM EST
    You prove my point.

    Parent
    Hardly (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:27:44 PM EST
    Since you are being such a patriot while you are arresting Pelosi, you can arrest Plame for impersonating a covert agent.

    I am sure some judge will hear your case, and there is a chance that you would have better luck than Padilla.

    Parent

    Who are you kidding? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Repack Rider on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:38:37 PM EST
    Satire deficient Jim calls me paranoid.  Excellent.

    the 5 years qualifications is there to prevent the CIA from keeping covert agents in the US for uses that the Left would find objectionable.

    I don't represent "the Left," which explains why I have no idea that you are talking about.

    Ms. Plame's job monitoring the spread of WMD is not one I find objectionable, but obviously Mr. Cheney did.

    Parent

    RePack (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:20:39 PM EST
    What all of us should find objectionable is two fold:

    1. The actions of Wilson.

    2. The prosecution of a man who was not even charged with an underlying crime.


    Parent
    PPJ coddles criminals (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Repack Rider on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:57:26 PM EST
    What all of us should find objectionable is two fold:

       1. The actions of Wilson.

    In exposing lies by the administration?  I believe that is a civic duty.  Mr. Wilson has earned my highest admiration for his courage.

    I can't think of anyone who has acted more honorably in the name of patriotism, and I would stand in line for two days to shake this man's hand.

    Do I make myself clear?  

    Why do you hate patriots like Mr. Wilson?  Isn't patriotism a noble quality in your world?

       2. The prosecution of a man who was not even charged with an underlying crime.

    Are you still talking about Bill Clinton?  Nice try, but the subject of this thread is Scooter Libby.

    Apparently obstruction of justice is not a crime in your state, but this was federal, where it is.

    Get over it and move on.  Libby got more of a fair trial than Jose Padilla is going to, he had the most expensive lawyers that money can buy, and the jury convicted him.

    What would it take in your world to demonstrate culpability?

    Parent

    RePack (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:06:07 AM EST
    You like Wilson only because of his opposition to Bush. I know that, you know that.

    As for Mrs. Wilson, I well remember her explaining that she became involved in this... Her description went something like this....

    ....I was having a discussion with another employee about who should go because the other employee couldn't think of anyone when another employee walked by and overheard the conversation and suggestted my husband be sent to Niger...

    Such answers, and the lack of questions make me wonder how politicans can walk and chew gum... That answer begs the following to be asked immediately:

    1. Why were you discussing agency business in such a public manner? Isn't intelligence information based on a "need to know?"

    2. Who was the employee who came to you for help?

    3. Who was the employee who walked by and suggesyed your husband?

    The final word comes from Novak, the man who started it all:

    Actually, in my first interview with Fitzgerald after he was named special prosecutor, he indicated that he knew Armitage was my leaker. I assumed that was the product of detective work by the FBI. In fact, Armitage had turned himself in to the Justice Department three months before Fitzgerald entered the case, without notifying the White House or releasing me from my requirement of confidentiality

    Link

    The question as to why Fitzgerald didn't quit as soon as he knew that has been asked, and the answer seems to be that he was concerned over multiple leakers, he didn't want to, or he really didn't know... I subscribe to none of these, but would like to hear Fitzgerald's answer.

    But the real question should be asked to Armitage.

    "Why didn't you tell the White House?"

    We then come back to the crime that supposedly occured, was confessed to but wasn't prosecuted.

    That statute limits prosecution to exposers of covert intelligence activities overseas, whose revelation would undermine U.S. intelligence. That is why Fitzgerald did not move against Armitage.

    Did the jury know this? If I remember correctly, Fitzgetald kept any mention of the underlying crime out of the trial, until the summation. And now, he brings in the covert claim, without details. (Remember the the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 is specific and then we
    this  law.

    and
    (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

    Finally I recommend that you read JM Hanes most interesting comment just below this one.

    Parent

    Remedial, Jim. This brain is dead. (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Repack Rider on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:10:34 AM EST
    First, I like Joe Wilson because he has shown incredible courage in the face of threats by Saddam, and later attacks by Bush and Cheney.  I appreciate his patriotism, and the fact that you do not says a lot about yours.

    Whether or not you agree with the CIA, the prosecutor, the judge and Libby's attorneys that Ms. Plame was "covert," her status as an employee of the CIA was classified for a good reason.

    Exposing her as a CIA employee also exposed Brewster-Jennings as a front for CIA activities and negated all the work she had done under that cover.

    The exposure permanently damaged a CIA asset in the "GWOT."

    Apparently you do not have a problem with that.  Would you have had a problem if Armitage had called the Chinese embassy to drop that little tidbit about Brewster-Jennings being a CIA cover operation?

    Why not?  The effect was the same.

    In any event, this is academic snce Libby was not convicted of leaking, but of obstruction of justice in helping conceal the source of the leaks.  Surely you understand the concept of obstruction of justice.

    Wait.  You're jim.

    Never mind.

    Parent

    "cross-referencing guidelines" (none / 0) (#21)
    by naschkatze on Sat May 26, 2007 at 08:04:28 PM EST
    Since the law depends so often on precedents, has this maneuver been done before, successfully that is?  If not, and if  Fitzgerald is successful in this instance, I think JM Hanes would be correct in his concern because it would set a precedent in the future.  It would be in line with the concerns I have about his court victories in Judith Miller's subpoena in this same Libby case and in obtaining reporters' phone records.  No one has much sympathy for Miller or Libby, but you wonder where this administration and justice department will apply these decisions in the future.  Some woman commenter wondered on a blog thread one time if the administration is not "running Fitzgerald like a rabbit" on these issues.

    Squeaky - Here you go (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:52:55 AM EST
    This is what the law says is a Covert Agent. Law

    and
    (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

    The Exhibit you refer to says that she engaged in Temporary Duty (TDY). No mention is made of the actual length of each activity. Exhibit PDF

    The law is plain. It uses the word "served."

    I find it curious as to why the word "engaged" was used rather than served. After all, the writer of the exhibit must have known the text of the law.

    engaged:involved in activity : OCCUPIED

    Could it be that when you say "served" it has a very different meaning??

    "RePack served in Vietnam."

    "RePack engaged in activities in Vietnam while on Temporary Duty."

    The first claim re RePack has a permanence to it. It connotes two things. Time and meaning...His "job" was in Vietnam.

    The second one does not. In fact, it says "Temporary Duty." In fact:

    temporary military service away from one's permanent duty station

    And in fact Temporay Duty provides certain benefits to the person involved that would not be available had they been where they were "serving."

    Simply put. If you were serving in the USN and located in Norfolk, if the Navy wanted you to engage in certain activities, say attend some training school in Rota Spain, you would be given Temporary Duty orders.

    Words have meaning, Squeaky.

    I again opine that the issue has not been adjudicated.

    Here is what a woman who helped write the law told Congress.

    Words Do Have Meaning (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 12:48:48 PM EST
        While engaged in CPD, Ms. Wilson engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries. When traveling overseas, Ms. Wilson always traveled under a cover identity-- sometimes in true name or sometimes in alias-- but aleays using cover-- whether official or non-official cover (NOC)-- with no ostensible relationship to the CIA.

        At the time of the initial unauthorized dislosure in the media of Ms. Wilson's employment relationship with the CIA on 14 July 2003, Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for whom the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States.

    Words do have meaning. Do you also want to make a citizen's arrest on Patrick Fitzgerald for providing false information in a court of law?

    The list is growing: Pelosi, The Wilsons, and now Fitzgerald? Wonder if there is a GOP bounty you could collect as well?  It would come in handy for your bail money.

    TDY (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 12:57:05 PM EST
    Oh, and TDY's are used by top secret covert agents to travel as well as whatever non covert examples you are obfuscating the issue with.

    Q: Will travel be required on my job?

    A: Travel varies by assignments. Occasional travel called Temporary Duty (TDY) is required at times, as well as rotational assignments. The travel may be within the continental United States or abroad. Certainly, employees may apply for assignments that require frequent travel, if desired. When applying for employment, the hiring representative will discuss these options with you.

    CIA


    Parent

    Squeaky - So? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 01:33:20 PM EST
    And your point is?

    The issue is whether or not temporary duty (TDY) meets the reqirement of having served aboard within the past 5 years..

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 01:30:27 PM EST
    Do you also want to make a citizen's arrest on Patrick Fitzgerald for providing false information in a court of law?

    How drool.

    No. Unlike you I do not think that every disagreement, statement, etc. is a "lie" or made to deceive....

    I thank we can have honest differences of opinion..

    That's why I mentioned...

    I again opine that the issue has not been adjudicated.


    Parent
    Hardly Honest (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 01:56:09 PM EST
    I thank we can have honest differences of opinion..

    This determination means that the CIA declassified and publicly acknowledges the previously classified fact that Ms. Wilson was a CIA employee from 1 January 2002 forward and the  previously classified fact that she was a covert CIA employee during this period.

    Your shilling is hilarious. The CIA, the US government and many of Plame's peers have stated that she was covert during the time period of her outing.

    Toesining is wrong and your parroting of her silly rhetoric is foolish. The main point Toesining made was that Fitzgerald knew that Plame was not covert before indicting Libby. Is she still sticking to this point? No, she cannot as the court evidence provided by Fitzgerald shows conclusively that he knew that she was covert prior to Libby's indictment. The underlying case that Fitzgerald building was, in fact, a violation of the IIPA.  The violation: Outing of Covert Agent Plame's identity. Libby obstructed that investigation and was convicted.

    Parent

    Squeaky - I never thought I would see this... (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 02:48:25 PM EST
    So, it is your opinion that the CIA is correct, just because they say something? Do you agree with this?

    The CIA's DO gave the former ambassador's information a grade of "good," which means that it added to the IC's body of understanding on the issue.....  The reports officer said that a "good" grade was merited because the information responded to at least some of the outstanding questions in the Intelligence Community, but did not provide substantial new information. He said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting

    And do you now agree that all of the information given by the US government regarding WMD's was accurate??

    Your double standard has never been more obvious, or laughable...

    Squeaky, I have quoted you, and linked to the law that makes a CIA agent covert. It is not a CIA statement, or a "government statement." It is the law. It states that for a agent to be covert:

    who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States

    The exhibit you were so proud of only hours ago states that she

    engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on offical business.

    The law doesn't say that TDY qualifies.

    And that Squeaky is the point in question. I would think that to be a point of law.

    Parent

    The Law (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 03:39:00 PM EST
    Says nothing about how the travel was accomplished. The method that the CIA uses for travel is TDY. That is a fact. All covert officers travel on TDY.

    The fact is that this is not CIA disinformation but a fact disseminated from a Federal Prosecutor who determined that in fact Valerie Wilson was covert and her cover was blown. The law that was broken was the IIPA. The government is hoping to have this fact enter into sentencing guidelines.

    This is a fact. Whether or not Libby knew that Ms. Wilson was covert has not been proven or disproved. What has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt is that Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA operative working and her cover was blown and that Scooter Libby obstructed justice.

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 05:03:17 PM EST
    Good grief.

    Federal prosecutors make mistakes all the time.

    Or do you agree that the prosecutor is correct in his actions with Padilla and the Ft Dix 6? etc and etc...

    And you don't even understand what you have copied. The following is what you wrote.

    Travel varies by assignments. Occasional travel called Temporary Duty (TDY) is required at times, as well as rotational assignments.

    Those are two different things. When you are rotated you are moved to a different place of service.

    One more time, squeaky.

    The question is this. Does TDY travel where Mrs. Wilson was engaged in certain activities meet the law's requirements that to be covert an agent is one:

    (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

    A trip to Paris on TDY orders for a weekend meeting does not mean you have served in my opinion.

    Plainer. If someone told you that they had served in Paris, Hanover, etc., would you think they had visited for a few days, or would you think they had actually lived there??

    Parent

    Libby Was Convicted (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 05:29:08 PM EST
    For obstructing an IIPA investigation. The reason that the Government pressed the case was because Valerie Wilson was covert at the time.

    Your arguments are tangential and non-sequiturs. Padilla included.

    The underlying crime is a fact of the case. Outing of a CIA agent. Just like the fact that when someone is brutally murdered a crime has been committed.

    There is no greater party that has knowledege Wilson's  status than the CIA and the Federal Prosecutor. That you claim to have some knowledge greater than theirs is more than hilarious.

    The jig is up. Game over.

    Parent

    Sueaky gives up (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:56:16 PM EST
    You might consider the issue of no consquence, but given that Fitzgerald wants to use the "covert" agent argument in the sentencing guidelines means that he, and Libby's lawyers, consider the issue of great important.

    You also demonstrate another "Squeaky's Lack of Logic."

    the reason that the Government pressed the case was because Valerie Wilson was covert at the time

    Well, why isn't Libby charged with outing her??

    Facts are, no one was charged. Where's the crime??
    Where's the crime? Where's the crime? Where's the crime????????????????????

    I mean, you do understand, don't you, that he wasn't...

    BTW.... I see that you have given up on your "covert claim."

    Parent

    Squeajky - To be plainer. (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 01:48:23 PM EST
    The issue isn't what they say, or what they claim.

    The issue is whether or not she met the requirements.

    If she did not "serve" outside the US in the past 5 yeears, she was not covert.

    That she was "engaged in Temporary Duty activities does not meet that requirement.

    Feel free to disagree.

    Parent

    still can't provide a link eh? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Sun May 27, 2007 at 05:45:54 PM EST
    alas... The NYT was second on this one..

    First place honors go to ABC..

    serious accusation ... where's the link?

    Parent
    Sailor defines confused (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:48:22 PM EST
    Gosh Sailor... has your mental facilities become so.....confused??? (Lay off the booze...) That you can't find Google and type "ABC + covert???

    and BEHOLD WHAT THE GREAT SEARCH GIVES ITS HUNGRY WORSHIPPERS.

    What a piece you are.

    Parent

    I was hoping you meant that piece (none / 0) (#57)
    by Sailor on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:09:02 PM EST
    Covert (none / 0) (#47)
    by Kewalo on Sun May 27, 2007 at 06:15:28 PM EST
    The fact is that you have no idea where or for how long Plame spent overseas in the 5 years before she was outed. That's from 1998 to 2003, right?

    Why in the world do you think the CIA would release that information to the public? Obviously they have released that info to Fitz and the judge, that is why they consider Plame covert. They have all the facts and we don't.

    Parent

    Kewalo (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:42:25 PM EST
    The facts are:

    The CIA themselves defined all of her travel as TDY.

    I take it you haven't complained about any claims of the government that they can't tell you because the information is classified.

    In other words, the road travels both ways.

    Parent

    TDY (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 09:19:14 PM EST
    A: Travel varies by assignments. Occasional travel called Temporary Duty (TDY) is required at times, as well as rotational assignments. The travel may be within the continental United States or abroad. Certainly, employees may apply for assignments that require frequent travel, if desired. When applying for employment, the hiring representative will discuss these options with you.

    CIA Fact Sheet

    Covert agents travel with TDY. Plame traveled overseas this way while on top secret official business within the 5 years limit.

    The law does not exclude TDY travel. Any operative residing in the states would in fact use this method to carry out their covert operations overseas.  

    Parent

    squeaky (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 09:40:35 PM EST
    gesh...

    The law does not exclude TDY....? The "law" also doesn't exclude traveling with your favorite Teddy Bear, but neither has anything to do with the question...

    Sigh.......AGAIN

    That isn't the issue. The issue is if short term TDY travel in which the agent engages in activities qualifies as "served."

    Perhaps once you really try and focus on that you will be able to understand the question.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:32:41 PM EST
    That isn't the issue. The issue is if short term TDY travel in which the agent engages in activities qualifies as "served."

    Evidentialy, evidentiary, and legally it does.

    Parent

    Legally??? It does??? (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:59:35 PM EST
    No. The CIA and the JD claims that it does.

    As I wrote hours ago, the issue has not been adjudicated...

    You know I am amazed that you, of all people, are so willing to accept the claims of the government.

    Frankly, it makes you look like a hypocrite...

    Parent

    Glad to see (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:15:04 PM EST
    That you are up to date on the latest GOP talking points.  
    As I wrote hours ago, the issue has not been adjudicated...

    Hilarious....

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:22:35 AM EST
    One of these days I am going to read the GOP talking points just to see what you think is funny. Truth be old men need a good laugh everynow and then..

    In the meantime I will settle for you finally understanding that my point has been simply, does TDY travel count as "served outside the US?"

    And, as I have indicated, I ask because of the wording.. "engaged" and "TDY." Why not a simple statement:

    She "served" 10 different times in 7 different countries. I ask because we also have the following:

    If Plame was really covert in July 2003 (or within five years of covert), the CIA was required under the statue to take "affirmative measures" to conceal her relationship to the United States, particularly because the criminal law comes into play. If Plame was really covered by the Act in July 2003, why did:

    * The CIA briefer who said he discussed the fact of Wilson's wife working at the CIA with Libby and the Vice-president, not tell them Plame's
    identity was covert or classified;

    * Richard Armitage, (who, having seen Plame's name in a State Department memo from which he gave the gossip to Robert Novak and later asserted,
    "I had never seen a covered agent's name in any memo...in 28 years of government") not know Plame's identity was not to be revealed;

    • State Department Undersecretary, Marc Grossman, not know Plame's identity was not to be revealed;

    • CIA spokesman Bill Harlow tell Vice-president staffer, Cathie Martin, that Wilson's wife worked at the Agency but not warn her Plame's identity
    was not to be revealed;

    * CIA spokesman Bill Harlow (who, according to Wilson's autobiography,had been "alerted" by Plame about Novak's sniffing around, p. 346 [App.
    B, p3] ) confirm for Novak that Plame worked at the CIA;

    * The CIA not send its top personnel, like the Director, to Novak and ask the identity of Plame not be published just as the government does any
    time it really, really, really does not want something public, e.g. in December 2005 when the New York Times was about to publish the top
    secret NSA surveillance program;

    • The CIA not ask Joe Wilson to sign a confidentiality agreement about his mission to Niger (a document all the rest of us have to sign when performing any task with the CIA) and then permit him to write an OpEd in the NYT about the trip, an act certain to bring press attention, when his Who's Who biography includes his wife's name;

    • The CIA allow Plame to attend in May 2003 a Democratic breakfast meeting where Wilson was talking to New York Times columnist
    Nicholas Kristoff about his trip to Niger;

    • The CIA allow Plame to contribute $1000 to Al Gore's campaign and list her CIA cover business, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, as her employer;

    • The CIA give Plame a job at its headquarters in Langley when it is mandated by statute "to conceal [a] covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States";

    • The CIA send to the Justice Department a boilerplate 11 questions
    criminal referral for a classified information violation when its lawyers
    had to know that merely being classified did not fulfill the required
    elements for exposing a "covert agent"?

    Such questions reveal slip-shod tradecraft, casting doubt on whether Plame's identity was even classified, much less covert.

    In fact, in a curious twist, while the CIA was turning a blind eye to Wilson writing
    about his mission to Niger
    (Did he go through the pre-publication review process like the
    rest of us have to do?), it was sending to the Vice-president's office documents about that
    same trip and these documents were marked classified. So the very subject Wilson could
    opine about in the New York Times was off-bounds for the Vice-president to discuss
    unless the person had a clearance.

    All of the above, of course will drift on into history and you will gleefully watch the process play out and then roundly, I hope, curse Bush for pardoning Libby.

    The really interesting thing is that all of this would have lain peacefully in bed had not Fitzgerald decided to bring it back to life with his sentencing guidelines. I have to wonder if the CIA, and others, would have just as soon it be left alone.

    Parent

    Simply (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:46:20 AM EST
    my point has been simply, does TDY travel count as "served outside the US?"
    Yes, that is how covert operatives who are based in the US travel overseas on assignment.

    Parent
    Squeaky (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:36:22 PM EST
    Sigh....

    I know you are limited in your knowledge and experience when it comes to such things, but...

    TDY is Temporary Duty Orders... It is not a mode of travel.

    To accomplish the Temporary Duty the person may travel by planes, trains, autombiles, ships, bicyles, cars, horseback.

    The person may be covert, non-covert, classified or a Methodist... But TDY has nothing to with the status.

    By definition, TDY (Orders) is a TEMPORARY ASSIGNMENT.

    The law doesn't say "Temporary." The law says, "served...."

    Parent

    Covert Operatives (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:19:22 PM EST
    Serve by going on missions. The missions overseas are all classified as TDY for those covert operatives who reside in the USA

    Therefore Valerie Wilson served as a covert operative and the leak of her identity initialed a federal IIPA case. The rest is history.

    While engaged in CPD, Ms. Wilson engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries. When traveling overseas, Ms. Wilson always traveled under a cover identity-- sometimes in true name or sometimes in alias-- but aleays using cover-- whether official or non-official cover (NOC)-- with no ostensible relationship to the CIA.

    You can consult all the dictionaries in the world searching for substantive differences between Fitzgerald's word engaged and the word served. Obviously you believe that the US Attorney was sending you and your wingnut friends secret messages along the lines of:

    My fingers are crossed, there was no leak, Plame was not covert.

    Adjusting your tin foil hat will help you to get better reception so that you can provide us with more of Fitzgerald's secret messages.


    Parent

    Plame (none / 0) (#54)
    by Kewalo on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:56:13 PM EST
    Exhibit B is the sworn testimony of Valarie Plame at congress. On page 16 of the pdf. it says this...

    Just three more questions. Do you hold this covert status at the time of the leak -- did you -- the covert status at the time of the leak?

    MS. PLAME WILSON:  Yes I did, Congressman.  Yes.

    REP CUNNIMGS: Number two, the Identities Protection Act refers to travel outside the United States within the last five years. Let me ask you this question -- again, we don't want classified information, dates, locations or any other details -- during the last five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?

    MS. PLAME WILSON:  Yes I did, Congressman.

    REP. CUMMINGS:  Finally, so as to be clear for the record, you were a covert CIA employee and within the past five years from today you went on secret missions outside the United States, is that correct?

    MS. PLAME WILSON:  That is correct, Congressman.

    http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/files/sentencing_memo_exhibits.pdf

    Parent

    Kewalo - Doesn't understand the issue... (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:06:44 PM EST
    The issue isn't what Mrs. Wilson thinks she did. We all know that.

    The issue is if her temporary trips overseas where she engaged in activities meets the requirement of having served as noted in the law.


    Parent