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Iraq Supplemental: Is The Problem Cowardice? No, Poor Thinking

Jon Alter, writing about the Dems' Iraq Supplemental disaster, says:

It isn't easy to make the case for capitulation and gamesmanship when human lives are at stake, but I'm going to try. That's because many Americans—especially on the left—don't understand why Democrats in Congress had no choice but to proceed the way they have this week on the war in Iraq.

I'm going to concentrate only on the politics of the situation here, let's leave the human lives at stake aside. Ahhhhhh. Just writing that sentence tells us what is wrong with this thinking. The POLITICS won't let us leave that aside. For this is the essential Democratic problem, they are viewed as standing for nothing. For having no principles. As Ruy Texeira and John Halpin put it:

The thesis of this report is straightforward. Progressives need to fight for what they believe in -- and put the common good at the center of a new progressive vision -- as an essential strategy for political growth and majority building. This is no longer a wishful sentiment by out-of-power activists, but a political and electoral imperative for all concerned progressives. . . . [T]he underlying problem driving progressives' on-going woes nationally [is] a majority of Americans do not believe progressives or Democrats stand for anything.

Alter's thinking is a reflection of this.

In writing about Bob Shrum's book, Matt Yglesias demonstrates that this is a problem that infects all Beltway Democratic circles:

[O]n the most important moral and political issue of the day, they [Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards] all broke the wrong way, supporting the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Shrum concedes that he urged his clients to do this, going so far as to say that he prevailed upon Kerry and Edwards to opportunistically endorse a war they knew was wrong. Most astoundingly, he clearly regards this claim as something that will be helpful to the politicians in question, a misjudgment that would seem to speak volumes about the difficulty his clients have had in winning presidential elections.

. . . He, Shrum, fails to grapple with his own admission that the war vote was a mistake, for if voting in favor of the Iraq resolution was a political and substantive error in a race against “a wartime president” then it was surely a very big mistake. . . . [I]n retrospect what’s shocking about the miscalculation on the war vote is less its simplistic nature—the war authorizing resolution was high-profile and popular, so Shrum advised his clients to vote for it. But neither Kerry nor Edwards was in a tough 2002 reelection battle. It didn’t matter whether or not the resolution was popular. A politician who took a stand against it would have two years to wait for events to vindicate his view. As, indeed, the skepticism about the war that Shrum attributes to Kerry and Edwards was vindicated by election day 2004. Which might have done them some good had they actually made the right call. The view that good policy is good politics sounds sappy and naive, but on this kind of issue it’s true—the first thing you need to ask yourself when trying to decide whether or not backing some invasion will be politically savvy is what you think will happen if the invasion actually takes place.

One could imagine situations where merits and political imperatives pull in opposite directions, but as a general matter substantive insight into foreign policy will be more useful—even from a crassly political point of view—than will the latest polling numbers. Nominally, Shrum agrees with this premise, observing that “if the party doesn’t stand for something more than a set of poll-tested programs and a carefully engineered set of tactics to win office then we are likely to lose unless the Republicans hand us victory on a platter of indisputable failure or perceived economic crisis.” . . .

Alter's advice is to wait for the inevitable failure in Iraq:

The whole “support the troops” meme has become a terrible problem for Democrats. Even though, as Glenn Greenwald has argued in Salon, cutting off funding doesn't mean soldiers will have their guns and bullets and armor taken away in the middle of a battle, Americans have been convinced that it does. They want to end the war and support the troops at the same time—i.e., send back the food and still eat. This is not a figment of some spineless Democrat's imagination but the reality of what he or she will face back in the district over Memorial Day. Democrats who vote to cut funding not only risk getting thrown in the briar patch by Republican hit men in Washington; they also might not be able to satisfy their otherwise antiwar constituents at home.

This begs two questions. If the not funding option is "abandoning the troops" is an immutable belief of the American People, and I have seen NOTHING that proves this point (the only polling on the matter is simply grossly inaccurate in describing the not funding option), then why go down this road in the first place knowing Capitulation would be at the end of the road? Alter and just about everyone else in Democratic circles was thrilled with the original House Iraq Supplemental strategy. If they all knew this would be the inevitable end, why were they so happy? This did nothing good for Democrats at all. Given the central image problem Democrats have, that they are spineless (and it is not just the progressive base that thinks this), how could this strategy have been thought to make any sense? It NEVER made sense. Neither politically nor substantively.

Which brings me to my second point; Alter writes:

The second problem is that even if Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid wanted to adopt the Chinese-water-torture approach, they don't have the votes for it in the Senate. Not gonna happen now. Pass-veto, pass-veto sounds good for Edwards on the stump but, sadly, bears no relation to reality on the ground in Washington. And the one thing we've learned from Bush's fiasco in Iraq is that we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.

If Democrats do not have the votes to overcome Bush's veto or even pass a bill, then why in God's name would they pursue a strategy that is dependent on garnering enough votes to override a Bush veto? I have written ad nauseum that the strategy to follow, and it may not work, requires pursuit of tactics that do no require veto proof majorities, or even simply majorities in both houses of Congress. You have read it here many times:

This is a preemptive post, because I am positive that the naysayer will trot out the same critiques about the NOT funding the Debacle approach that was used when Feingold first proposed his Not Funding plan in January. To wit, we don't have the votes, McConnell will filibuster, Bush will veto. My response remains:

I ask for three things: First, announce NOW that the Democratic Congress will NOT fund the Iraq Debacle after a date certain. You pick the date. Whatever works politically. If October 2007 is the date Dems can agree to, then let it be then. If March 2008, then let that be the date; Second, spend the year reminding the President and the American People every day that Democrats will not fund the war past the date certain; Third, do NOT fund the Iraq Debacle PAST the date certain.

Some argue we will never have the votes for this. That McConnell will filibuster, that Bush will veto. To them I say I KNOW. But filbustering and vetoing does not fund the Iraq Debacle. Let me repeat, to end the war in Iraq, the Democratic Congress does not have to pass a single bill; they need only NOT pass bills that fund the Iraq Debacle.

But but but, defund the whole government? Defund the whole military? What if Bush does not pull out the troops? First, no, not defund the government, defund the Iraq Debacle. If the Republicans choose to shut down government in order to force the continuation of the Iraq Debacle, do not give in. Fight the political fight. We'll win. Second, defund the military? See answer to number one. Third, well, if you tell the American People what is coming for a year, and that Bush is on notice, that it will be Bush abandoning the troops in Iraq, we can win that political battle too.

This approach is perfectly consistent with the so called "short leash" plan, where the Debacle will be funded in 3 month intervals. But it is only consistent if BOTH are done. The intention to NOT fund the war after March 31, 2008 must be made the Dem position now.

The short leash must be pulled to a stop on March 31, 2008.

Say it now so you can end it then. If you do not say it now, then you can't end it on March 31, 2008.

This approach has the following virtues: (1) you are funding the troops in the field; (2) you are giving the Surge a chance to work; (3) you are laying out a plan the American People support; and most importantly, (4) you can end the Debacle and bring our troops home.

Alter would counter that:

®easonable people can disagree over tactics. Sen. Russ Feingold argues that by not voting to cut off funding, Democrats are becoming complicit, and taking co-ownership of the war. Feingold's far-sightedness on the war (he was much more prescient about its folly than I was) deserves great respect. But on this narrow political point, he is mistaken. Democrats who vote to cut off funding can be more easily blamed for the war's failures, especially in swing districts. That's why the leadership is letting members vote their consciences, rather than try to enforce a party line vote that would not prevail in the end, anyway. Pelosi's position is the right one—she's voting against the bill but not trying to make others do the same.

First, why does Alter misstate the Reid/Feingold framework. NOT funding after March 31, 2008 is NOT cutting off funding now. Is this simple fact so difficult to understand? CNN made the same mistake in its poll but I expect better from Jonathan Alter. Second, to go back to my purely political critique, why go through the whole Iraq Supplemental charade? Alter says reasonable minds can disagree on tactics, but I don't accept that ANY reasonable mind can now think that the Democratic tactics on the Iraq Supplemental made sense on any level. Reasonable minds can and must see that those tactics were a failure, an abject failure that only hurt Democrats.

My friend David Sirota and I privately discussed the issue of House procedural rules and whether the Democratic leadership should have allowed a vote on the, in essence, GOP/Blue Dog proposal that has now become law. We discussed the procedure called a motion to discharge, whereby, a majority of the House can force a bill to the floor.

It seems to me that if, as Alter says, Democrats in "swing districts" can not stand up to end the Iraq Debacle by setting a date certain for not funding the war, then they should own the problem, and not saddle the entire Democratic Party with their problem. Let these wavering Democrats, the Webbs, Testers, McCaskills, et al, deal with their political problems by voting with the Republicans and for the Iraq Debacle if they must. To damage the Democratic Party as a whole for the sake of their imagined fears (I think they are being utterly foolish on this issue as Democrats have been forever, see ironically, Jon Alter on this issue), but if that is theur judgment, then let them live with it, don't pin it on the entire Democratic Party.

But that puts these Dems in a tough spot doesn't it? They don't want to support Bush's Iraq Debacle on their own, they want the cover of the Democratic Party's anti-Iraq Debacle message. Well, time for that is now past. The progressive wing of the Democratic Party has been forced to swallow too much on Iraq strategy. They represent districts too. They represent Americans too.

If silly Dems believe swing districts will punish
Democrats for ending the Iraq Debacle, then let them vote for the Iraq Debacle. But let them live with their choices and not force them upon the entire Democratic Party.

Because, whether Alter and other "pundits" and politicians, like it or not, the progressive base of the Democratic Party will punish the Party in 2008. I certainly will urge them not to. but calling them idiot liberals, Naderites and other such names will not change the fact that Democrats will be punished for not trying to end the Iraq Debacle.

Come September, if Democrats do not stick to their guns on Iraq, I predict a serious and important rift in the progressive base, one with serious political consequences in 2008.

Alter and other supporters of the Capitulation Bill best deal with THAT reality.

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  • Display: Sort:
    On the House side (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:10:57 AM EST
    leadership should absolutely have forced the Republicans to get a discharge petition. That way, only 15 Democrats would have to buy the war.

    OTOH, it might have ended up being around 80 anyway, given the vote this week.

    I'm learning a lot from you (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 27, 2007 at 08:42:09 AM EST
    about House procedure.  Thank you for sharing the knowledge.

    Parent
    An amateur myself (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Sun May 27, 2007 at 08:44:56 AM EST
    but it interests me.

    Parent
    If you think it doesn't make sense, you're right (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Al on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:20:10 AM EST
    It didn't matter whether or not the resolution was popular. A politician who took a stand against it would have two years to wait for events to vindicate his view.

    They just didn't think the occupation of Iraq would be a failure. How could it fail? They voted for it because they thought it would be a slam-dunk.

    And why would the Democrats go against the interests of the war industry, and the oil and oil-dependent industries?

    If you look at what Democrats do assuming that their main priority is the welfare of the people, none of what they do makes any sense. Right now, a large majority of Americans want out of Iraq; why aren't the Democrats jumping on the bandwagon?

    Nobody's writing about the oil legislation that was approved by the Iraqi cabinet a few months ago, and is due to come before the Iraqi parliament. This oil legislation gives away Iraq's oil reserves to foreign companies. It would have been passed already if it wasn't for the raging civil war in Iraq, and the inevitable struggle between Kurds, Sunnis, and Shias, for how the Iraqi oil industry will be managed and how the proceeds will be split.

    It is totally understandable that any decent person these days looks to the Democrats as the knights in shining armor come to rescue democracy from the greedy, brutish thugs in power. But this is wishful thinking. The Democratic politicians didn't come up with this war, to be sure. But with a few, very honorable exceptions they did support it, simply because they thought it was a good deal. And if what they are doing now is to make any sense, I'm saying they still think it's a good deal, if the oil legislation can be pulled off.

    In any case, we may be watching the end game already. Al Sadr has reappeared, extending an olive branch to the Sunnis, offering to join forces with them against the occupation.

    By including Bush's oil law in benchmarks (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by annefrank on Sat May 26, 2007 at 05:52:18 PM EST
    Congress is basically blackmailing the Iraqis. They must deliver their black gold to foreign oil companies or we ain't gonna fix nuttin we broke.


    Parent
    it is both dishonest and cowardly. nt (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by conchita on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:13:03 PM EST
    Yup. (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Lora on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:38:02 PM EST
    It IS "about the oil, stupid."  And about the contractors and all those who profit from the war.  Yes, it is dishonest and cowardly, by the repubs and the dems who support the war, er, I mean, who do not support defunding the war.  It's...well, politics as usual.  Why the dems should be more noble than the repubs, except that we want them to be, I don't know.

    Parent
    Believe it. It cuts both ways: (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Compound F on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:39:41 AM EST
    Come September, if Democrats do not stick to their guns on Iraq, I predict a serious and important rift in the progressive base, one with serious political consequences in 2008.

    Democrats have now put me in the impossible position of supporting them supporting Bush, or punishing that behavior by voting against them, resulting in collective punishment of the entire planet.

    One thing is certain: if Democrats think they can take me for granted, they are wrong.  

    Many statements by Congresspersons who (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by oculus on Sat May 26, 2007 at 01:35:26 PM EST
    voted for the bills about the impact of Memorial Day weekend.  Excellent positioning by the White House to engender the fear of not funding the troops just before returning to the Congressional districts for this weekend.  

    I painted on the house yesterday (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 27, 2007 at 08:44:19 AM EST
    and watched CNN.  After a day of that this weekend all I can say is Got WAR PORN?

    Parent
    Did you see the photo in NY Times (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:31:49 AM EST
    of returned soldiers with amputations doing stretching exercises to get in shape for the special olympics.  Too sad.

    Parent
    Annoyingly (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat May 26, 2007 at 04:04:28 PM EST
    I tend to agree with talex's point that public opinion is not where it needs to be in order to make it safe for Democrats who want to end the war to vote that way. People want the war over, but don't have a clear view of how that might be done, only spin that puts the issue into false alternatives that support WH policy.

    However, I strongly disagree with the solution he proposes, incremental racheting of pressure on Bush and Repubs to bring the issues into focus for the public and build public support for defunding or whatever it takes to end the war. What's wrong with it is that it's going to take too long and leave the problem in the hands of the next, probably Dem, administration, which won't want to "lose" Iraq either and so will prolong the conflict looking for some illusiory victory past 2012, 2016...

    Also what's wrong with it is illustrated in what this commenter said last night:

    This is my first blog post, ever.

    I have never voted, nor ever payed any attention to politics...

    What worries me is how much time it took me to form a coherent picture of this political landscape.

    The present political situation is a freaking enourmous jig-saw puzzle, and the picture is ornate; one must have many pieces before it makes any sense.  The problem is that people simply can not, or do not, make the attempt.  

    Even if they feel something is wrong, a glance at the enormity of the puzzle pushes a button in them, and they give up.

    I have inquired into the political beliefs of the people I hang with, and only two had a clue as to what's actually happening in Washington...

    For the uninformed, I must stress again, there is simply too much information to sort through, too many possibilities to sift through, for the vast majority to "get" anything.

    America is mightily confused...

    The only people who get the news are those who already have the bigger picture.  For everyone else, the news IS NOT an inroad to understanding the bigger picture.

    What the Democrats are hoping to do - get through to a hopelessly confused electorate that isn't really paying attention - is a doomed project in the time scale they realistically have to work in. Also, they're going to need to go out and present a clear, consistent, advertising-style message on this in order to get the idea across, and that's not happening nor is likely to happen by September. That for instance they seem to not actually understand the really rather simple Reid-Feingold defunding strategy themselves is also hardly a confidence-builder in this area.

    What I find most disturbing is the apparent willingness of elected Democrats to play on this confusion and apathy of their constituents for their own electoral prospects instead of taking up the issues and educating people about them through taking clear, principled, courageous stands. If they're against the war, they should be speaking out about it at every possible opportunity and explaining their reasons, bringing people along with them, not hiding until the last minute before a crucial vote because they're afraid of what the smear machine will do to them. So what. Stand up and face it. That's what their job involves these days - didn't they know that when they signed on to run?

    That's the failure in the party - too much calculation for the good of the party and the individual politician, not enough principled representation. Part of that is the broad nature of the Democratic coalition, which enforces strategy over ideology. And I'm sure there are pressures on each of them to do with the need to raise funding that distorts the clear moral imperatives here. But I don't care at this point to cut them any slack on any of this any more. Feingold somehow manages to always do the principled thing and get reelected. Why don't the rest of them? They're where they are to serve the people, not themselves, and if they don't know how to do the right thing they deserve to get ousted.

    So, BTD, I disagree with you. It's both poor thinking AND cowardice.


    The Democrats need to learn how to... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Aaron on Sat May 26, 2007 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    ...die for their principles once again.  Start falling on their swords in front of the White House and let that blood begin to stain the political waters until all America sees is red.

    What we need right now more than anything else is the blood of patriots running in the gutters of our country.

    Parent

    A little dramatic (none / 0) (#31)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat May 26, 2007 at 08:34:23 PM EST
    but OK.

    They sure haven't been willing to die for their principles since LBJ.

    Parent

    In addition to the other idiocy ... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Ellie on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:41:40 PM EST
    Both the Bush War Pigs and the Dem Jellyfish suffer from the same delusional, ass backwards "logic" that those who were right before the invasion, who have been and continue to be right as of today, and by all indications look to be right tomorrow are the ones who must show increasing patience and forebearance with a strategy that was idiotic yesterday, has continued to be a forehead smacker up to now, and will be slack-jawed drooling moronic again tomorrow.

    What's worse is that they increase their admonishments (and idiocy of the allegories used -- if it's possible even to be more patronizing and insulting in "explaining" why the people who are again and again proven right by the facts are "actually" wrong.)

    The FAITH of the smart people isn't the problem but the STUPIDITY of the koo-koo bananas idiots who don't know a through and through loser when they see one.


    Greenwald on the irrationality (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat May 26, 2007 at 08:24:57 PM EST
    of the public discussion around defunding:

    Time and again, even those Democrats who supported a mandatory troop withdrawal would talk about de-funding like it was some sort of grotesque act of betrayal ("oh, absolutely not, we will not de-fund the war. We will support our troops")...

    Is it any wonder that Americans reached the completely irrational conclusion that to de-fund the war is to endanger the troops? Not only were Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman saying this, so, too, were most leading Democratic war opponents.

    How peculiar that the sole method that could actually bring the war to an end is the very one that got picked up to be made "radioactive." Why are the Rethug strategists always two steps ahead of our idiot consultants?

    I print all of my posts (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by andgarden on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:04:00 PM EST
    on acid free paper and fedex them to a salt mine in Utah.

    Standing for something also problem for dkos, (none / 0) (#2)
    by fairleft on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:20:47 AM EST
    the main Democratic Party allied blog:

    The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions.


    Never Saw That Before (none / 0) (#10)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:46:32 AM EST
    a change of terms would be helpful.

    "Anti-establishment" just would not play well with the majority of America.

    Parent

    And, about September, (none / 0) (#3)
    by fairleft on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:30:36 AM EST
    what are you (and Harry Reid? he made noise about that month too) talking about? Bush is required to provide meaningless progress reports in July and September.

    Iraq funding essentially for the rest of his term will be in the fiscal year 2008 defense authorization bill, which I think will be voted on in July.

    They Won't Be Meaningless (none / 0) (#11)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:50:21 AM EST
    Bush will at least have to go on record as to what is happening. And he can't lie about it. He can't lie because the Dems will know what is going on. We will know what is going on because we have Reps go over their all the time and talk to out military and Iraqis off the record so we can get the real story.

    Bush knows this and hopefully is smart enough to not be made to look like a liar again.

    Parent

    No, they'll be meaningless (none / 0) (#44)
    by fairleft on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:48:20 AM EST
    for saving lives by getting us out of there even one day sooner than otherwise, which is what most people think 'meaningful' in this context means. And Bush can and will lie, mislead, and leave stuff out, like he always does, and perhaps Democrats will fulminate, but I consider that meaningless too.

    Parent
    What's special about September? (none / 0) (#4)
    by ding7777 on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:31:32 AM EST
    The House has alread passed H.R.1585 - which includes the "emergency" funding of $141.8 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan during fiscal year 2008.  

    Can't Bush start using this money October 1 (assuming the Senate passes the same)?

    I asked this too, (none / 0) (#45)
    by fairleft on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:49:12 AM EST
    still no answer.

    Parent
    Just guessing, but (none / 0) (#46)
    by ding7777 on Sun May 27, 2007 at 12:55:49 PM EST
    since the Senate hasn't voted on its version, matbe there will be a post-conference version that the House will vote on.

    Murtha keeps saying the showdown will be in September even though he voted for H.R.1585

    Parent

    He's said more recently (none / 0) (#49)
    by fairleft on Sun May 27, 2007 at 04:06:48 PM EST
    that 'he' would separate the funding for the new year. Look at his recent Huffington Post.

    Parent
    While I don't usually agree (none / 0) (#5)
    by Green26 on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:49:37 AM EST
    with Big Tent on certain Iraq matters, I have some agreement with what he has said in this thread. However, I think some of the Dems do in fact lack spine in this situation. If they believe the war must end, then they ought to vote (or not vote as BT points out) to end the war--by not funding the war. I think many are reluctant to do that, because they foresee political ramifications for that vote in the future. I'm more of a principle guy. If you oppose the war (as much as some profess), vote that way. Don't play games. Don't play to the polls. I have more respect for someone who says what he means, and backs it up with his actions.

    While I know many people, including some politicians, adamantly oppose the war, I can't help but wonder about the sincerity of some of the pols who profess to oppose the war. I wonder if they even know what they believe in, and whether their thinking is overwhelmed by politics and polls.

    Principles. Who need's 'em? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:57:49 AM EST
    if Democrats do not stick to their guns on Iraq, I predict a serious and important rift in the progressive base, one with serious political consequences

    Let's be pragmatic here.

    Look how far having no principles can take you.

    asdf (none / 0) (#9)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:43:30 AM EST
    This begs two questions. If the not funding option is "abandoning the troops" is an immutable belief of the American People, and I have seen NOTHING that proves this point (the only polling on the matter is simply grossly inaccurate in describing the not funding option), then why go down this road in the first place knowing Capitulation would be at the end of the road?

    You have seen NOTHING? I think Greenwald wrote pretty eloquently on how defunding is viewed and has been viewed by America as "abandoning the troops" for a long long time. What more evidence do you need Armando? Do you want to deny what is CW just because you don't want to see it that way. Seriously that is ridiculous. Why would career politicians some of who grew up in political families from childhood fear defunding? Because it is a figment of their imagination? Or because they know the issue is real?

    This did nothing good for Democrats at all.

    Nothing? If the debate would have never taken place we never would have had a vetoed bill and public recognition of it. If the debate never would have taken place their never would have been a Reid-Feingold to even talk about. If the debate would have never taken place the MSM would not be printing it for people to read and become better educated on the issue. If the debate would have never taken place people would not be further shaping their own opinions on the war and ending it in the manner they now can. If the debate would have never taken place then the Democrats would have done NOTHING as far as put forth some kind of effort to change the course of the war as they were elected to.

    So yeah it DID so something good for the Dems and the public.

    ALSO if one reads the news today the debate put pressure on Bush and the Repubs for a new course of action which is NOW being discussed in the WH.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070526/ts_nm/iraq_usa_troops_dc_1

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/washington/26strategy.html?hp

    The links above are another topic so I will reserve comment on those for another time.

    If Democrats do not have the votes to overcome Bush's veto or even pass a bill, then why in God's name would they pursue a strategy that is dependent on garnering enough votes to override a Bush veto? I have written ad nauseum that the strategy to follow, and it may not work, requires pursuit of tactics that do no require veto proof majorities, or even simply majorities in both houses of Congress.

    A veto proof majority does not happen overnight. And the best way to achieve it is through a series of votes and legislative procedures.

    As your comment further above asking 'what good did this do?' shows your lack of understanding for patience and the process so does this last statement. Anyone who has paid attention to congress knows how long things can take. Anyone who has bothered to read about how long it took to end the Vietnam war would have some perspective on how long it might take to end this one.

    You have written " ad nauseum that the strategy to follow..." - - Wow so you have written!! Then why is no one listening to you? Do they not know you are here? The saviour has written! For God's sake!

    First, why does Alter misstate the Reid/Feingold framework. NOT funding after March 31, 2008 is NOT cutting off funding now.

    Technically it is cutting off funding. It is just doing it on a future date. And it is doing it without Bush's wish. Now if such a bill could pass congress with a veto proof majority I'd be all for it. It would be a bi-partisan wish to end the war and the public would buy that. But it would still be cutting off funding NOW while providing the money to withdraw the troops over a period of time and making any plans for troop that were to remain in the region.

    It seems to me that if, as Alter says, Democrats in "swing districts" can not stand up to end the Iraq Debacle by setting a date certain for not funding the war, then they should own the problem, and not saddle the entire Democratic Party with their problem. Let these wavering Democrats, the Webbs, Testers, McCaskills, et al, deal with their political problems by voting with the Republicans and for the Iraq Debacle if they must. To damage the Democratic Party as a whole for the sake of their imagined fears (I think they are being utterly foolish on this issue as Democrats have been forever, see ironically, Jon Alter on this issue), but if that is theur judgment, then let them live with it, don't pin it on the entire Democratic Party.

    What is the point? If you are saying they should vote with Repubs then we don't win passage of a bill anyway. So what is gained? What face do the Dems really save?

    And now you are saying it is OK for the Webb's to vote with the Repubs but earlier you were chastising those who voted YES on the last bill. Which way do you really approve of because on any given day you change what is right or not right depending on what you are arguing.

    Come September, if Democrats do not stick to their guns on Iraq, I predict a serious and important rift in the progressive base, one with serious political consequences in 2008.

    Yeah. I knew with those like you it would come to this. It is happening with the wingnut wing of the Left at dkos also. You either get it exactly your way like spoiled children or...

    You burn down the village in order to save the village.

    You hand the keys of the WH and congress back to the Repubs and then blame that result on someone else.

    And people wonder why Obey calls some of the Left "Idiot Liberals"? What is to wonder about?

    Well put, Big Tent. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:51:14 AM EST
    I'm going to concentrate only on the politics of the situation here, let's leave the human lives at stake aside. Ahhhhhh. Just writing that sentence tells us what is wrong with this thinking.

    talex' comment above illustrates that perfectly.

    Parent

    Really what it boils down to is that (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 11:53:47 AM EST
    the only people who oppose not funding the occupation to end it are rethugs.

    And..........rethugs.

    Parent

    talex (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:33:15 PM EST
    You claim to want the Iraq occupation ended. You claim to want it ended as fast as possible.

    You've argued often that you think a veto proof majority assembled to pass a bill forcing Bush to end it is the only way, and here today you are arguing that people should push and support the Democratic Leadership to work towards that.

    You have argued in the past that you think there is more support for working towards a veto proof majority than for NOT funding, and that is why you push that idea. A political calculation that leaves the human lives at stake aside, and by doing so makes it clear that whether or not that political calculation is correct, you are more concerned with winning elections than ending the debacle.

    Simple logic will tell you that not providing funds for the occupation will end the occupation faster, IF there is enough support for it among the Democratic Leadership and if there is enough public pressure.  

    You've made it clear before that you understand that simple logic, and you've said before words to the effect that you think the NOT Funding idea is a loser, and that you would support NOT Funding only if you saw enough support for it to make you feel you were backing a winner.

    Yet you will not lend your voice and effort to pushing for what you know by your own logic is the fastest way to end the occupation.

    I can only conclude one thing.

    You do not want the occupation of Iraq ended.

    Parent

    On Thursday (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 01:35:55 PM EST
    Congress sent a $120 billion war spending bill to Bush, abandoning a call for most U.S. troops to leave Iraq after an earlier veto by President Bush.

    Only a few hours after the vote on this bill the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee sent out an email fundraising pitch that said this:

    Two weeks ago, President Bush vetoed our legislation to demand accountability in Iraq and declared he would only sign a bill without any accountability for his management of the war.

    NOW:
    Now, the President has agreed to accountability and reporting provisions. That means for the first time we can force the President to be held accountable for his endless war in Iraq. We canceled the President's blank check in Iraq.

    How close was it you said you are to that veto proof majority, talex?

    Parent

    Why so hostile to A? He's nailed it with this (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by bronte17 on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:47:33 PM EST
    post. You have proven nothing against his words.

    I have seen NOTHING that proves this point (the only polling on the matter is simply grossly inaccurate in describing the not funding option)...

    If you've seen nothing to prove the inaccurate polling, then you haven't been reading extensively. In the same breath, you say Greenwald wrote eloquently on the subject of defunding. Yes, he did. And, he supports Armando's thoughts on this, while examining the dissonance from the American public and how they reach these conflicting opinions.

    And yet exactly this nonsensical notion was permitted not only to take hold, but to become unchallengeable conventional wisdom in our public debate over the war. The whole debate we just had was centrally premised on an idea that is not merely unpersuasive, but factually false, just ridiculous on its face. That a blatant myth could be outcome-determinative in such an important debate is a depressingly commonplace indictment of our dysfunctional media and political institutions.

    But the real reason this happened is because Democrats not only allowed it to occur, but eagerly helped it. As much as anyone else, even leading anti-war Democrats such as Carl Levin and Barack Obama continuously equated de-funding with a failure to "support the troops."

    Time and again, even those Democrats who supported a mandatory troop withdrawal would talk about de-funding like it was some sort of grotesque act of betrayal ("oh, absolutely not, we will not de-fund the war. We will support our troops"). Over and over, this is what Americans heard even from Democrats who oppose the war...

    Armando, this was an excellent piece. It should be sent to every Democratic congressperson.

    Parent

    Talex comment deleted (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 26, 2007 at 07:58:04 PM EST
    for site rules violation.

    For information purposes only.

    I urge his comments be ignored.

    Parent

    The poster (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:03:11 PM EST
    said I could not prove the validity of the CBS Poll - which is a ridiculous to say. and then they said the poll was not accurate but yet offered no proof that it was not - even while they demanded proof from me.

    He demanded proof of a reliable poll which I only sighted. But yet he said it was wrong -which was only his opinion - and I asked him for poof of his opinion. I violated no rules there.

    I said "ROTFLMAO". So what? The is common and acceptable. As opposed to you telling me I am the stupidest person you ever saw.

    Want to get into a pissing match? I'll send Jeralyn a copy of my post that you delete next time along with the insults you hurl at me and we will see which she thinks breaks the rules.

    Try me.

    Parent

    TMF (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:08:32 PM EST

    Try me.

    Looks like he just did.

    Parent

    I'm not sure what CBS poll talex is referring to but the 2 most recent ones I have seen present conflicting evidence which, nonetheless is more strongly supportive of the notion that not funding would be popular.  

    When looking at these results it is important to bear in mind that they have taken place in a context in which really only one side has gotten its message out - the pro-funding side.  We do not know what the results would be if the Democrats hadn't done such a half-assed job with their message.  And we still don't know how it would come if you did a poll the right way by presenting balanced arguments for both sides, including one side that argued that cutting off funding is the normal way to end wars and is not the same thing as troops running out of bullets ina firefight.

    But despite the context that favors the pro-funding side, we have one CBS result that supports Talex from the 4/20-24 CBS/NYT poll:

    The Democrats in Congress have proposed to fund the Iraq war only if the U.S. sets a timetable for troop withdrawal, too. George W. Bush has stated he will veto that proposal. If George W. Bush does veto it, what should the Democrats in Congress do next: should they try to withhold funding for the war until George W. Bush accepts a timetable for troop withdrawal, or should they allow funding for the war, even if there is no timetable?

    56% Allow funding
    36% Withhold funding.

    HOWEVER, on the other hand, there is a CBS News poll conducted 4/9-12/2007 that strongly supports the anti-funding side:

    It shows that Americans think the war is going badly, that we will not succeed, that we should have either not gotten into the war or left as soon as we got rid of Hussein, that we should set timetables, and that this would not increase the threat of terrorism in the US.

    Most importantly, they asked the following on-point question:

    Which of these comes closest to your opinion? 1. Congress should block all funding for the war in Iraq no matter what or 2. Congress should allow funding only for a limited period of time or 3. Congress should allow all funding for the war in Iraq without a time limit.

    Block all funding            6%
    Allow only with time limit  61
    Should allow all funding    30
    Don't know/NA                3

    To be fair they asked the same question a second way, putting the responses in a different order with the first option above asked last instead and got somewhat weaker results.  But they still got a strong 55% majority saying allow funding only with a time limit.

    Parent

    What Rules Were Those? (none / 0) (#34)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:54:23 PM EST
    Which did I violate?

    Parent
    ha (none / 0) (#36)
    by talex on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:08:23 PM EST
    I urge his comments be ignored
    .

    How weak is that?

    I urge that people see that A. does not accept differing views than his ego.

    **yeah this page has been saved as an html file.

    Parent

    talex (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:20:43 PM EST
    Are you a teenager?

    Parent
    Yet? (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:22:28 PM EST
    George Bush defeats USA (none / 0) (#22)
    by Aaron on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    Some good articles worth reading, unfortunately these solutions lead us back to the same place once again, continuing support for George W. Bush because there is no answer to the dilemma he has created.  No matter what we do, we lose, the Iraqi people lose, and the forces of antiliberalism and totalitarian fundamentalism gain ground and grow stronger.  The old Catch-22, or as my mother often told me two wrongs don't make a right, attacking America was wrong, and invading Iraq was wrong.  Perhaps that simple philosophy applies in this situation, but I can't help thinking that some right, some good might have come out of this war, with any other leader sitting in the White House, but that brings us back to the supposition that any other leader would've never gone to Iraq, any other leader would've never intentionally deceive the people of the United States in order to take us to war.

    As was stated in these articles the commanders in the field are not being included in these discussions about withdrawal because as military men they realize that such a move is the exact opposite of what is needed in Iraq, from a military perspective.  Reducing the number of troops and the pullout will only further destabilize the country, that is a military reality.  So there's no point in including the Iraqi commanders in these discussions because from their perspective it's a ridiculous approach to the problems they face, an approach that draws us closer to inevitable military failure.  So we're back to the Catch-22, damned if we do, damned if we don't, there is no way to win, there is no way to make it right, America will fail in Iraq regardless of what we do at this point.  That's a difficult thing to accept.  Thank you George, thank you for putting us in this situation.

    So we will limp on, the United States of America has has been reduced to the actual equivalent of a lame duck, a disabled giant, an ineffectual Leviathan that at some point in the future will withdraw back across the Atlantic cowed in the face of Osama bin Laden and Islamic fundamentalism.  That is what's happening to us, and it will be seen as the most devastating defeat in US history up to this point.  Thank you George, thank you for doing more damage to the United States of America than any president in history, thank you for validating all the claims made by bin Laden, thank you for putting us on that Roman road towards the inevitable collapse of the empire.

    And it all could have been avoided if we only had a man in the White House who had been honest with the American people, a man who was trustworthy and believed in democracy, a man with integrity that listen to his military advisers.  But there is no going back, and ultimately it is we the American people who are to blame for allowing such a man to become our president, and then reelecting him.  Sorry to be so negative, but if anybody sees how any good can possibly come out of this, please let me know, because I don't see any way to salvage what I'm sure history and historians will hold up as one of the greatest blunders and tragedies in world history.

    Parent

    The Plural of Anecdote Is Not Data (none / 0) (#47)
    by CauseDisturbance on Sun May 27, 2007 at 02:18:39 PM EST
    Armando said, "I have seen NOTHING that proves this point (the only polling on the matter is simply grossly inaccurate in describing the not funding option)"

    Talex replied, "You have seen NOTHING? I think Greenwald wrote pretty eloquently on how defunding is viewed and has been viewed by America as "abandoning the troops" for a long long time. What more evidence do you need Armando?

    Armando is looking for proof, Talex, not conventional Beltway/media wisdom.  Proof would require a poll that asked a question that presented balanced arguments on both sides, with one side arguing that defunding is not the same as troops running out of bullets in a firefight.  

    But there has been no polling like this publicly.  And I have it on excellent authority that the key Democratic leaders in Congress have not privately polled it this way either.


    Parent

    excellent debate (none / 0) (#15)
    by orionATL on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    btd,

    this a very thoughtful and well-written post.

    thanks.

    the post and the comments constitute for me a very informative debate.

    i hope the entire thread goes on for a while.

    i am royally pissed at the failure of demcrats to be publicly outspoken on this , and on many other issues, over the last six years.

    lately,

    i have been wondering if it would be possible for a group of congressional democrats to get together and agree to issue several months worth of really searing criticisms of the president and his iraq policy.

    • the business of not having the right equipment, discussed with evident anger by a knowledgeable congressional democrat or two.

    • the matter of incompetent medical care through out the country, not just at walter reed.

    -the matter of fiscal irresponsibility

    - the matter of bush hiding behind the troops, using their well-being as a shield to protect his foreign policy folly which needlessly puts the lives of these very troops at risk.

    -the lost opportunities for the u.s. that are the opportunity costs of this invasion and occupation of another country

    • the contempt and fear with which we are regarded in the international community

    • the horrendous casualty toll and physical destruction our invasion and occupation has visited on iraqi society

    • the failure to maintain focus on al quaeda as our primary security threat

    • related failure to see that chaos in iraq would lead to an increase of arab terrorism, not a decrease

    • the advice of now dozens of former military officers regarding the damage iraq occupation is doing to our military and the related damage to the national guard leaving it incapable of meeting its first obligation which is within the territorial borders of he u.s.

    and many other specific criticisms of bush's war folly policy

    so how come the congressional democrats can't have an ongoing tuesday (or wednedsay or thursday)  public forum to strongly, unambiguously discuss these issues and more?

    i am just baffled.

    what the domocrats face and what they fear is the mighty wurlitzer.

    the only way i see of dealing with this media noise machine,

    short of kowtowing to it which is what dems are doing now,

    is to attack it head on. attack the bush's simple-minded, laughably lying, rhetoric

    and attack the electronic and print media's complicity, duplicity, and professioan incompetence.

    until the wurlitzer is smashed, individual congressional democrtas are too vulnerable, district by distinct, state by state.

    it really is a meter of either democrats hang together now or hang separately in 2008.

    Lets not jump to conclusions (none / 0) (#18)
    by chemoelectric on Sat May 26, 2007 at 01:44:41 PM EST
    There is a lot of time between now and the 2008 election. Democrats can get liberal voters interested in them again by, for starters, impeaching Alberto Gonzales.

    And that will make up for and offset (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Edger on Sat May 26, 2007 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    owning and continuing the Iraq occupation?

    Parent
    You underestimate the depth (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by bronte17 on Sat May 26, 2007 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    of the betrayal of this war in Iraq to most liberals.  

    We progressives/liberals were out in force to stop the march to war. And our logic and rational stance against it has been justified.

    To think handing us a candy treat of Gonzo's resignation will make it all better is wishful thinking.

    Parent

    Meanwhile, at the big orange, there is a diary (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Sat May 26, 2007 at 02:06:30 PM EST
    congratulating Webb for denouncing the capit. bill and calling a spade, a spade, i.e., what is happening in Iraq is an "occupation."  Reality check needed.