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77% of Americans Favor Dem Plans On Iraq

The latest Newsweek poll reflects what I think is becoming a winning frame for Democrats on Iraq:

Americans remain cautious about the prospect of a hasty withdrawal from Iraq, afraid it would leave the country in chaos. Out of four possible options in the poll, 19 percent of the respondents chose immediate total withdrawal. Slightly fewer (13 percent) don't want any cutbacks at all. Nearly a quarter of all Americans (24 percent) would implement a gradual withdrawal plan that would start in the fall and extend until the spring, when the last troops would come home. Forty percent favor keeping a substantial number of troops on the ground there, but only on the condition that they fall back to their bases and focus solely on training Iraqis and targeting Al Qaeda. . . .

40% favor keeping troops in Iraq as long as they are not engaged in combat in the Iraqi civil war. This is the packaging contained in almost all of the Democratic proposals, including Reid-Feingold (the difference in Reid-Feingold to other plans is that is relies on the Spending Power, the one truly effective way for Congress to stop Bush.) Add to this the 37% who favor immediate withdrawal or withdrawal by the Spring of 2008 and it seems clear to me that the baseline position that 77% of the country has taken on Iraq is the Democratic position. More.

I want to discuss the Reid-Feingold Amendment in detail again because I think it combines a moderate position that is embraced by the country (once properly understood) and the only effective way to check bush on Iraq. The text of the Amendment states:

To safely redeploy United States troops from Iraq.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

(a) Transition of Mission- The President shall promptly transition the mission of United States forces in Iraq to the limited purposes set forth in subsection (d).

(b) Commencement of Safe, Phased Redeployment From Iraq- The President shall commence the safe, phased redeployment of United States forces from Iraq that are not essential to the limited purposes set forth in subsection (d). Such redeployment shall begin not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

© Prohibition on Use of Funds- No funds appropriated or otherwise made available under any provision of law may be obligated or expended to continue the deployment in Iraq of members of the United States Armed Forces after March 31, 2008.

(d) Exception for Limited Purposes- The prohibition under subsection © shall not apply to the obligation or expenditure of funds for the limited purposes as follows:

(1) To conduct targeted operations, limited in duration and scope, against members of al Qaeda and other international terrorist organizations.

(2) To provide security for United States infrastructure and personnel.

(3) To train and equip Iraqi security services.

(Emphasis supplied.) Let's review again what 40% of Americans support:

Forty percent favor keeping a substantial number of troops on the ground there, but only on the condition that they fall back to their bases and focus solely on training Iraqis and targeting Al Qaeda.

40% favor Reid-Feingold. 37% favor withdrawal, arguably a more radical approach than Reid-Feingold's "redeployment" approach.

Now let me return to my basic point on efficacy. The Reid-Feingold legislation will NEVER become law. I have written instead in favor of what I would call the Reid-Feingold framework:

I ask for three things: First, announce NOW that the Democratic Congress will NOT fund the Iraq Debacle after a date certain. You pick the date. Whatever works politically. If October 2007 is the date Dems can agree to, then let it be then. If March 2008, then let that be the date; Second, spend the year reminding the President and the American People every day that Democrats will not fund the war past the date certain; Third, do NOT fund the Iraq Debacle PAST the date certain.
Some argue we will never have the votes for this. That McConnell will filibuster, that Bush will veto. To them I say I KNOW. But filbustering and vetoing does not fund the Iraq Debacle. Let me repeat, to end the war in Iraq, the Democratic Congress does not have to pass a single bill; they need only NOT pass bills that fund the Iraq Debacle. But but but, defund the whole government? Defund the whole military? What if Bush does not pull out the troops? First, no, not defund the government, defund the Iraq Debacle. If the Republicans choose to shut down government in order to force the continuation of the Iraq Debacle, do not give in. Fight the political fight. We'll win. Second, defund the military? See answer to number one. Third, well, if you tell the American People what is coming for a year, and that Bush is on notice, that i t will be Bush abandoning the troops in Iraq, we can win that political battle too.

If Dems can explain that Reid-Feingold is precisely what Americans support, the Reid-Feingold framework can work. But for it to be explained, people like Jim Webb, Carl Levin and Jon Tester have to stop mouthing the GOP talking points on the funding options. Let's hope they have learned to by now.

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    I want to be clear (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:17:50 AM EST
    I think Reid-Feingold is shrewd politics in that it uses "redeployment" as the key phrase. IF the "redeployed" troops are not involved in the Iraqi civil war, then in essence there is no need for 160,000 troops. If the only combat is against Al Qaida targets - and here of course there is an issue that is sticky, given the strange Bush lurches with the Sunni insurgency in Anbar (one day they are terrorists, the next they are helping us against al Qaida in Iraq) - then they have no primary responsibility for security in Iraq.

    Call it an anti-surge. It will lead to withdrawal and insure we are not in Iraq for a long time.

    I think it is a smart and necessary compromise in the short term.

    Atrios misses the point (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:32:42 AM EST
    But military experts whom NEWSWEEK interviewed (among them senior officers serving in Iraq) suggest that for such a combination of missions to be done effectively, there would be little allowance for any reduction in troops

    This last part doesn't get enough emphasis, as all the very serious people in Washington are contemplating the "leaving without leaving" plan, pulling out some troops without really deciding that the occupation of Iraq is not really in the US's long term interests. In practice what they're advocating is doing the same "job" we're doing now but with less troops. This is pointless at best (troops will just spend their days twiddling their thumbs on bases) and catastrophic at worst (troops will be insufficient to support and defend themselves, maintain supply lines, etc...).

    The best case scenario right now is the pointless one. I would much rather have the troops twiddling their thumbs on the base than getting blown uo by IEDs. And the twiddling will become withdrawing.

    Atrios is not looking at this from the 'what is politically possible perspective.'

    Parent

    Ahem (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:35:15 AM EST
    Atrios is not looking at this from the 'what is politically possible perspective.'
    Sound like anyone else you know?

    Parent
    There is no such thing as twiddling thumbs (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:03:24 PM EST
    on bases in Iraq.  Thumb twiddle time has to happen in WAR or all you is a whole big bunch of PTSD and one of our largest problems where our soldiers are concerned is that they spent their entire deployments in a state of extreme life and death hypervigilance and now some are FUBAR forever.  It is the lack of thumb twiddling time that has led to a whole of soldiers losing their marbles and senseless death!  Bases like Al Asad are very easy to keep safe and defend and if something wild happens for a few days Kuwait is completely stocked full up with American aircraft that will always be able to airdrop anything needed into where ever it is needed.  As far as our troops not being able to defend themselves my husband is at work so I can't hear him laughing in the background, but we were supposed to bring liberty to Iraq so after Saddams military was brought down we put our nasty stuff in storage.  If someone tried to attack one of our operating bases during the redeployment they would be some sorry sorry sorry Muthas.  Super silly analysis!

    Parent
    Oops, sorry for typos. Just a little flabbered. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:04:52 PM EST
    Spc. Lake: (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:21:50 PM EST
    Inside The Surge
    We will have spent 14 months in contact, basically fighting all 14 months. They sent us right into Baghdad when we got into Iraq... And we took our first 2 KIA's the first week we were here... The first week we were in Baghdad we lost 2 guys in our batallion... I mean it hasn't stopped since.
    ...
    You got grenades going off, you got an IED blowing up your vehicle, and then you're expected to go back in those 4-5 hours and relax, to come back out and do another 6 hours. You just don't have time to do it. Your body never gets to come down. You're always on that heightened sense of alertness.
    ...
    We're not given that time to recuperate... it's just constant...you never get a break...



    Parent
    Here is the (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:33:16 AM EST
    Reid-Feingold (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:20:01 AM EST
    is the "centrist" solution ;-)

    It really is (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:25:40 AM EST
    It May Be The Centrist (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by talex on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 11:12:41 AM EST
    solution but you just said it wouldn't pass! And the reason it will never pass is because it is a Dem Bill and not a bipartisan bill.

    So if you repackage it, modify it, and add to it, - in a bipartisan manner - and then call it a New Authorization Bill it would sell.

    And that is the only thing that will sell!!!

    The idea of pulling the rug out on funding will never sell as I explained midway through this post yesterday. Greenwald also explained why it wouldn't sell - because of the way Americans perceive it. and anyone who thinks you can unwind perceptions that people have had for a lifetime over the period of 6 months or so knows nothing about psychology. And then add in that it is expected that the worse communicators on the planet - the Dems - would be tasked to change peoples perceptions is to ignore the cold hard facts of the job at hand.

    As for leaving troops in Iraq being not only necessary but preferred by most of America...

    I Told You So!!!

    Parent

    Leaving troops in Iraq? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 11:49:42 AM EST
    I told you so?  As far as I know BTD has argued for redeployment which is a refocus of mission change.  He has never asked for or argued for soldiers to stop where they are this instant and begin making their way to the airplanes home NOW.  He has argued for an end to combat operations and the beginning of redeployment.  I'm sorry you missed all the many many nuances of the argument  Whether or not they pass Reid Feingold tomorrow fresher soldiers are still deploying to Iraq this fall to complete a mission.  The only debate out there is what that mission will be!

    Parent
    Strawman (1.00 / 2) (#21)
    by talex on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:38:50 PM EST
    He has never asked for or argued for soldiers to stop where they are this instant and begin making their way to the airplanes home NOW.

    No where in my post did I suggest that. So quit with the strawman argument.

    What Armando has called for consistently is to give Bush 6 months of money and say that is all you get so you better use it to bring the troops home. That is a withdrawal plan as plain as day and by most estimates it would require at least 6 months to totally withdraw/redeploy. Armando's plan has never said anything about leaving troops in Iraq as the poll shows people are willing to do or as I have said many times here. He wants them all out in 6 months or less if possible. Unfortunately that is not realistic.

    Today is the first time I have seen Armando somewhat embrace the possibility of another plan that would leave troops in Iraq for a period of time. Here he is in response to what Atrios said:

    I would much rather have the troops twiddling their thumbs on the base than getting blown uo by IEDs. And the twiddling will become withdrawing.

    That statement is nowhere near the fallacy of his defunding plan that he brought up again here in this post. So you see Armando is now approaching being on the fence with plans. Why? Because he wants the troops out ASAP, as we all do, but he knows defunding is not a realistic option. Therefore he must look to other ways to get the troops home. If that means that a first step is pulling them out of combat and back to safe bases then he is intelligently inching toward that idea as you can see from his quote. He will continue to mention his defunding plan only because he is invested in it and to abandon it would bruise him so he won't do that. But he is opening up to other viable ideas that have a chance or being implemented in DC.

    The only debate out there is what that mission will be!

    If you have read any of my posts you know I advocate for a change in mission so you aren't telling me anything sweety. I made several recommendations to amending Warner-Lugar regarding a new mission.

    And speaking of Warner-Lugar according to Hadley yesterday Bush wants no part of it (read: veto). That is a good sign for us. That means Warner, Lugar and the rest of them have been put on notice that even a center-right plan is DOA with Bush. That means they must join us by moving Left on a bill with teeth, timelines, and an EXIT STRATEGY or they will be seen by the public as do nothings. That plan should be a tougher and smarter version of their amendment as I have presented in several posts.

    Parent

    Six months of money (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:49:21 PM EST
    where Bush get to stick with his mission which is combat operations.  I remember many times where BTD made it clear the the redeployment mission should be completely funded.

    Parent
    And since Armando does listen to credible (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:56:12 PM EST
    Generals and Batiste has said that it will take at least ten months to execute a responsible redeployment I never assumed ever that Armando didn't understand the militaristic realities out there.  A redeployment mission is a redeployment mission and the soldiers all work together to execute that mission and that has been the only argument Armando has fought for..........redeployment!  He is one of the few bloggers on the left that has made an effort at times to understand the militaristic realities but he fights his fights on the political battlefield.  Once again I'm very sorry you missed all the nuances of this BTD debate at Talkleft.

    Parent
    Oh jesus (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:26:37 AM EST
    That's pretty extreme.

    Parent
    Wait a minute here. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:37:04 AM EST
    Doesn't this embolden the terrists.

    Parent
    Cynicism vs reality (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:50:22 AM EST
    40% favor keeping troops in Iraq as long as they are not engaged in combat in the Iraqi civil war... Add to this the 37% who favor immediate withdrawal or withdrawal by the Spring of 2008 and it seems clear to me that...

    ...this should satisfy even the Blue Dogs and other "democrats" who favor never ending occupation to keep their gas cheap.

    Am I getting a little cynical in my old age?

    It is my nonexpert smartmouth opinion (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 11:42:03 AM EST
    that the troops need to fall back to operating bases today and half of them need to pack tomorrow.  70,000 in country to contain the genocide for power fights, allow Iraq to remain its own entity while going through this horrible time, and protect refugees if they occur along with other infrastructure needed like immigration of Iraqis who have been giving G.I.'s haircuts for a meager living. The only REAL function our military can provide Iraq is the same sort of protection they give to America........they do their best to keep us safe from outside invaders and lethal force while we get to solve our own problems.  In the following year our troops should easily be able to redeploy down to 30,000 in country and as Iraq stands up the United Nations will serve them much better than American military ever did!

    Bases? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Al on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:10:02 PM EST
    Why would US troops need to stay indefinitely in bases?

    To fight Al Qaeda? Even if they knew who Al Qaeda was, they still couldn't fight them from bases. How would you do that? Whoever heard of fighting a guerrilla war from bases? What are they going to do, hunker down and send out helicopters and planes to bomb stuff? That's what they're doing right now and it isn't working.

    And to train Iraqi forces? Please. What Iraqi forces? Who are these "Iraqi forces" supposed to fight? Is it really such a good idea to take Iraqis and give them guns and military training?

    To those who still think the American forces should stay in Iraq in some form: Get your heads out of the ground. If you think for a moment that the US forces are helping to prevent Iraq from falling into chaos, I have bad news for you: Iraq is in complete and utter bloody chaos, and there isn't a thing American soldiers can do about it other than take shelter and try not to get blown to bits.

    And if you can't stand the thought of being forced out of a territory that you invaded a few years ago, the remedy is simple: don't think of it as losing, call it, say, strategic failure, cut your losses and get out. There is no better option.

    We don't need to stay on bases (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:22:05 PM EST
    in Iraq forever.  We do need to protect Iraq though while Iraq recreates her infrastructure.  Then the U.N. can take over.  I don't think the U.N. will even take a look at this mess with as bad and force draining as it is right now.  Things change though when dynamics change.  This isn't like the first time America will have pulled back to bases in Iraq.  It happened before the 2004 election to end the soldier deaths in the press and make Iraq appear more peaceful.  This is just the first time anyone discussed in front of us what the benefits to pulling back to those bases can be.

    Parent
    Unrealistic (none / 0) (#27)
    by Al on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 04:25:28 PM EST
    I don't think the American forces are in any condition to protect anything in Iraq. I think that's been pretty much proven over the past four years. If they can't do it with 160,000 troops (not counting the mercenaries, excuse me, contractors), they certainly won't be able to do it with even fewer troops.

    And I doubt very much the UN wants any of this. Who would contribute troops to peacekeeping in Iraq, and why on Earth would they do that?

    You can't keep bases in a country which you tried to occupy and failed. They won't let you. Yes, there are still US bases in Germany and Japan. But that's only because the Allies won.

    Parent

    Nobody said anything about keeping bases (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:31:43 AM EST
    and I find that whole debate a little paranoid.   Our military can easily protect themselves on the bases they are already using as they redeploy and if you think they can't protect themselves you know and understand very little about your military and what it is capable and incapable of.  If you are a Democrat and are sick of warhawks calling you soft on national security and unable to protect the nation you might want to remedy that with some military facts so you can out fight the idiot hawks. I would start with anyone working for Vote Vets because they are soldiers that do care about real solutions that bring what little safety they can to those less fortunate we share the globe with and Wes Clark did pull off Bosnia.  I'll never be a purist or allow my own personal paranoias to get in the way of fundamental human needs in third world countries.

    Fundamental human needs are constant through all human cultures and across historical time periods. What changes over time and between cultures is the strategies by which these needs are satisfied. It is important that human needs are understood as a system - i.e. they are interrelated and interactive. There is no hierarchy of needs (apart from the basic need for subsistence or survival)

    We broke the system of survival for many many many Iraqi's and the least that we could do is conduct a responsible redeployment that keeps our troops safer and provides some cover for Iraq.  We lose nothing by having a 10 month responsible redeployment that allows us to pull back an enormous fighting force and bring it home. We stand to lose much more in the way of American and Iraqi lives racing each other to cross the Kuwaiti border all hell bent and cares tossed to the wind.  It was hell bent and cares tossed to the wind that got us here and there.

    Parent

    Tracy (1.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:20:34 AM EST
    Our military can easily protect themselves on the bases they are already using as they redeploy and if you think they can't protect themselves you know and understand very little about your military and what it is capable and incapable of.

    As the surrender movement starts, and that is what you have here, people will be brought into smaller physical areas. The movement will be over known roads. That will make the operation a killing field for the terrorists and their IEDs.

    The actual country exit will be most overland over known routes Route Tampa is the major supply route for Coalition forces in Iraq. Again you have a killing field. Only this time it will include rocket and mortar attacks unless we declare a swatch 10 miles wide on each side a free fire "dead zone" and keep it wiped clean with 24/7 air support. Even that won't eliminate the attacks completely. Given that the date will be known months in advance the enemy will be able to have IED's in place, rockets/mortars staged long before the movement starts.

    As the surrender movement continues a point will be reached in which the sheer number of terrorists will be able to overcome the ever smaller number of troops. The result? A massacre.

    Also at the end you have a thin line stretched hundreds of miles. At this point Iran will be tempted to decide that it is time to further humilate the US and attack in mass.

    With no tactical advantage because our mobility is reduced the US would have to decide to let the troops be killed, or come in with heavy air attacks, many where US troops are intermixed with Iranians. In the meantime the issue of what we should do to repay Iran will be debated.

    The result will be heavy attacks on Iran's population centers. With limited base facilities for heavy bombers and a lack of the necessary weapons the decision to use nukes is very real.

    So you see Tracy, it isn't about what the military can do, it is whar it will be told to do. A retreat is one of the most difficult maneuver known. Your way can very easily lead to deaths of thousands of US military and tens of thousands of civilians.


    Parent

    Since you want to talk surrender movement (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:58:06 AM EST
    I decided to get very serious about my response to your above post.  I phoned Fort Rucker and read your post over speaker phone to a group of Army officers and then I took notes.  This is my response to your post per information provided by them.  The MSR's that will be used are already being used right now but most of our heavy assets are dedicated within the cities leaving our convoys very lightly protected because we don't have the assets available to armor them up.  We also have amazing intel collection platforms consisting of Predator drones and satellites and we can detect small recent soil disturbances very easily when IED's are set but we are currently having to cover such a large area that the systems are not covering any roadways very well and covering all of Iraq essentially halfa$$ed and we have the lost troops and vehicles to prove it.  There are terrific bases used in Iraq  because Saddam was a lot of things but not totally stupid. If US troops are attacked on those bases they can unleash FREAK FIREPOWER to defend themselves and would not involve any civilians because there are no urban areas around them and Al Asad and Balad were given as examples of what the soldiers serving and in the know about Iraq are talking about here.  The soldiers did agree that insurgents will be able to find them much more easily on the MSR's but with all of their heavy assets and intel platforms freed up there will be very few successful IED's from there on out and if you attack the supply convoys in their words YOU WILL "F"ing DIE and they won't.  One soldier said that they can provide a much more affective defense than they ever hoped an offense and also laughed his a$$ off at your having to nuke Iran B.S.  He's glad that you haven't wasted your imagination because it can be a terrible thing to waste.  We have two carrier groups in the Persian Gulf right now and the Enterprise headed back and Iran could barely break the border before we wiped out their ground forces from the air entirely and he just doesn't think that Iran is anywhere near as stupid as you are trying to portray them as.  Another soldier said that you are picking trivia to make up what you try to portray as possible scenarios and I shared a little bit of Talkleft with him and told him those are called BIFURCATIONS.  You have a nice day now Jim, this is the surrender movement signing out ;)

    Parent
    Tracy (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:05:52 PM EST
    Just how in the hell do you expect anybody, even ppj, to stay in denial and keep their blinders from falling off, if you're going to say sh*t like that?

    All ppj's asking for is a little respect:

    Why can't they be civil and show us some respect??? "I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!"
    -- Fredo Corleone
    ;-)

    Parent
    Great Test (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:08:00 PM EST
    Of our resident military expert's knowledge and wisdom. Once again it suggests that if in fact he served in naval aviation is was most likely serving burgers.

    Or, to be kind, he learned nothing from his experience, whatever that may have been.

    Parent

    Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:26:23 PM EST
    You what??? I am flattered. But based on the accuracy of some of your comments and ability to keep things in context I am much not impressed in your ability to be my spokesperson and take notes.

    Anyway, let's see what we can do here.

    The issue isn't the resources that they have, or how well they will use them. Why do you even bring that up??

    The issue is a retreat from the country over defined and known in advance routes.

    That is what "bringing the troops home" will entail.

    The issue is a retreat in which the forces decrease in size and strength.

    That's what happens when you remove people from an area. (Math 101)

    That's a huge problem.

    As for an attack by Iran, let's assume they mass 200,000 troops on the border. Are you saying we should attack before they do? (That's what I'd do.)

    My hope is that your friend's assessment of how many and how fast they can be killed by air power is correct, but looking at the distances involved, the speed at which Iranian forces could move, the terrain involved, I just don't see it being that easy.

    BTW - I mention terrain because for airpower to be   efficent as a killing machine the "enemy" must be bunched. I don't think the terrain leads to that, but I hope I am wrong and the Iranians are stupid enough to just huddle. But I would think they will remember what happened to the Iraqis during Desert Storm.

    Ever thought they could just fake an attack to the west, and then take Kuwait?? Sure, we could take it back, but that would take time... In the meantime they would have us in a bottle in which we have a long thin line of defense with limited supplies and resourcs.

    Somehow I think the planners have had a nightmare or two over this.

    As for nuking Iran, I don't think any non-retired military guy is going to be talking about that.
    And he shouldn't. That decision is made at the Presidential level.

    So thanks Tracy. I hope you gave these folks my regards and told them I'm one of their biggest fans and would love to buy them a beer and shoot the breeze.

    Parent

    Back for more rope? Again? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:33:42 PM EST
    Look down. The ground is coming up fast.

    Parent
    I read your post to them word for word (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:10:03 PM EST
    Jim and wrote down their responses.  They said that you use trivia to support totally wild military scenarios.  I just can't consider you much of an expert on Iraq because you didn't do any real combat if you even really served.  Because you have very little grasp of what air power we have I have to tell you that I do not believe that you had anything to do with naval aviation ever.

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:25:23 PM EST
    Uh, based on the respones it is apparent you didn't note that my comments were regarding a country retreat, not a retreat into bases.

    Two different things, Tracy.

    As for what you believe, you are welcome to that, just as I don't believe that you are married to a military guy, or actually called a "group" of officers.

    But it was  nice excercise on a hot muggy day.

    Parent

    Backpedalling and juggling (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:37:35 PM EST
    that fast isn't doing much for your image, ppj.

    You could lose your reputation. If you had one.

    Parent

    Oh for crying out loud Jim (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:16:46 PM EST
    They were talking about the redeployment plans on the table right now.  Certainly in your military expertise you know that those plans go that we fall back to defendable base positions and then begin a responsible redeployment of troops home?  You know, leaving Iraq.......the surrender monkey movement using "Route Tampa".

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:57:08 PM EST
    What I know is that I didn't talk about falling back to bases.  What I wrote was:


    As the surrender movement starts, and that is what you have here, people will be brought into smaller physical areas. The movement will be over known roads. That will make the operation a killing field for the terrorists and their IEDs.

    The actual country exit will

    Your attempt to disguise what you have done is giggles and as transparent as it comes.

    heh.

    Parent

    Jim, I'm going to attempt to be very gentle (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 11:54:36 AM EST
    about this whole deal.  We went to see the new Harry Potter last night and my cell phone rang as a Maj checked back with me to see how my debate with you turned out.  I could not read your reply word for word to him but I told him that you expressed some doubts as to how easily we could put down Iranian ground forces invading Iraq.  The Major has serious doubts now also that you have any real military experience.  He was quick to make noted that his understanding of what the harm one carrier group can deliver is peripheral when compared to someone with ten years Naval Aviation experience but he is very confident that one carrier group can deliver enough harm to a country like Iran that it can be called profound harm, two carrier groups twice the profound harm.  His expertise is the Army and if we only used the bombing assets sitting on Balad in Iraq right this minute on an Iranian assault he said that we might not seize Iran but their military would be decimated. Not just the troops invading, but them and then we would go in country and wipe out every major military facility they had........decimated military!  Take Balad and add the profound damage of two carrier groups and he doesn't think you have much grasp of military realities and nobody even whipped out a nuke yet.

    Parent
    Tracy (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    but I told him that you expressed some doubts as to how easily we could put down Iranian ground forces invading Iraq
    .

    Your memory remains poor. And your being dishonest when you give incomplete information. What I said

    As for an attack by Iran, let's assume they mass 200,000 troops on the border. Are you saying we should attack before they do? (That's what I'd do.)

    My hope is that your friend's assessment of how many and how fast they can be killed by air power is correct, but looking at the distances involved, the speed at which Iranian forces could move, the terrain involved, I just don't see it being that easy.

    BTW - I mention terrain because for airpower to be   efficent as a killing machine the "enemy" must be bunched. I don't think the terrain leads to that, but I hope I am wrong and the Iranians are stupid enough to just huddle. But I would think they will remember what happened to the Iraqis during Desert Storm.

    Ever thought they could just fake an attack to the west, and then take Kuwait?? Sure, we could take it back, but that would take time... In the meantime they would have us in a bottle in which we have a long thin line of defense with limited supplies and resourcs.

    I do not believe any military person would have a problem with the above.

    Parent

    You don't think the terrain leads to that huh? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 05:14:47 PM EST
    I guess you forgot what U.S. troops did to Iraq forces leaving Kuwait, and they weren't even all that serious because our own soldiers weren't in immediate danger.  They just wanted to cripple Saddam enough that they could all go home and not worry about him returning to Kuwait and by God they sure did and they did that in between taking naps!  You have no military experience.  You can google all day for trivia though, that much is for certain.

    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    And you all thought (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:14:36 PM EST
    Gen. Jack D. Ripper was fictional.

    Parent
    jondee, edger and squeaky (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:29:48 PM EST
    The Three Mooseketeers strike again!!

    Gosh, it has been years since my ankle has been bitten so often.

    Parent

    I prefer to p*ss on you (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:31:47 PM EST
    from a considerable height, Hiram.

    Parent
    I meant trickle down. (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:55:18 PM EST
    You'd better call the Army (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:45:19 PM EST
    and straighten them out, ppj.

    Iraq is a mess and they haven't got a clue how to get out without being massacred.

    Probably has something to do with their leadership.

    Parent

    ahahahhahah (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:55:08 PM EST
    ppj is the flea, truly and totally GOP. 26% and falling.....

    Rove 101 (distilled from Goebbels): Know your own weaknesses and then accuse your opponents of them repeatedly.  

    ppj aka the flea with no knee.  Our ankles are safe.


    Parent

    Well, if things get too tough (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:55:33 PM EST
    he can always fall back on the incompetency defense and ask the court for redemption.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:36:04 PM EST
    Quit sticking your foot in the trap.

    Need more rope? Run fer preznitwit.

    Sorry to tax you conceptually. Those are mixed metaphors, btw. Advanced concepts.

    Parent

    DA (1.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:59:55 PM EST
    You could never be an ankle biter.

    You'd be too busy telling the bitee that he had tied his shoe laces the wrong way.

    Parent

    Boy-o (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by chemoelectric on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:50:32 PM EST
    Webb and Tester may have difficulty because they are new to the Senate, but Carl Levin's brain is probably shriveled and crunchy by now.

    Oh yes, the U.N. haters (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:50:46 AM EST
    You guys are so wierd. All American soldier good, very good, American flag good, very good, U.N. bad, very bad, U.N. is Satan.

    Tracy - Nppe, no hate. (1.00 / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:20:07 AM EST
    I don't do that trick. I let the Left dump the bile and show their BDS.

    Unfortunately for you, the two facts quoted are real.

    And then there is the Oil For Food Scandal... which by itself should have caused us to withdraw.


    Parent

    worldnutdaily ... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:26:50 AM EST
    ... is not a reputable source.

    Parent
    You will find nothing in this world (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:37:47 AM EST
    that is perfect Jim....nothing.  You are a cherry picker for hate.  The United Nations has done far far far more good than ever it did not so good or bad.  When I'm dead my life will never be about how right I was or how wrong some other guy was, it will only be about whether or not I lived my life as a decent human being.  Decent human beings realize that perfection is not attainable and that everyday you are six feet above ground is an opportunity to be a decent human being. Some days it can even be a challenge to be a decent human being.  What the U.N. sometimes struggles to be and sometimes easily is daily and the aid they provide the world's forgotten, the world's refugee, the world's raped and pillaged is going to take much more than your paltry list before I can even call it a wash.  So hate on little man because only hate would cause you place yourself on such a lofty perch in such vehement judgement of the United Nations.

    Parent
    Is it possible to be this choosy about targets? (1.00 / 1) (#14)
    by roy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:01:24 PM EST
    Let's say the US mission is officially changed so that only Al Queda is targeted.  Won't other organizations -- call them insurgents or terrorists or whatever -- continue to attack US troops?  US troops will have to be able to fight back.  

    Unless somebody is out patrolling and raiding strongholds of those "other organizations", they'll get stronger and better positioned, meaning attacks on US troops will be more successful.  If Iraqi forces can handle that mission, great, but they're gonna have to get a lot better a lot faster before that's realistic.  I know Maliki just said Iraqi forces can keep security, but he's wrong.

    The best case scenario of this half-assed withdrawal is not thumb twiddling, it's a temporary decrease in combat followed by an increase as the insurgents regroup.

    In short, if the "to provide security for United States infrastructure and personnel" exception is implemented well it will still look a lot like today's war, and if it's not implemented well it will look worse.

    Pulleeeeeze, soldiers would give anything (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 12:17:03 PM EST
    in Iraq to be attacked by an enemy they could actually see these days and battle head to head with far superior fire power than any attacking bands of insurgents are likely to ever be able to imagine.  Don't worry about U.S. troops, they can fight back just fine........it is really hard fighting inanimate objects like IED's and your friendly neighborhood militia sniper.  Iraqi security forces will become security forces when Iraq needs Iraqi security forces for security.  It isn't a fun job but it is necessary just like we need to maintain police forces in our own Democracy.  American forces are such pathetic security forces for Iraq because we aren't Muslim.  We are the infidel in the Muslim faith so we aren't going to get good intel and without intel we have to bust down the whole neighborhoods doors and violate Muslim homes with our Infidel selves who are unable to observe Muslim manners because we have no idea what they are!  Also, we have abused Iraq and Muslims........ever heard of the husband who blacked his wife's eyes being the one who brought peace and kindness into her life?  You can't violate people and ever hope to be someone they ever trust again.  There is a solution to all of this, it is only a matter of how much you want a solution here.

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:55:52 PM EST
     
    It isn't a fun job but it is necessary just like we need to maintain police forces in our own Democracy.  American forces are such pathetic security forces for Iraq because we aren't Muslim.  We are the infidel in the Muslim faith so we aren't going to get good intel and without intel we have to bust down the whole neighborhoods doors and violate Muslim homes with our Infidel selves who are unable to observe Muslim manners because we have no idea what they are!

    Re-read what you wrote. If that is true then no Moslem can ever relocate outside of a Moslem country.

    Or are "our" Moslems "trustworthy" and Iraq's aren't?

    Your logic fails again.


    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:07:47 PM EST
    Your logic fails. On so many levels it's pathetic. Even as a trolling attempt it's pathetic.

    You can do better can't you? Or can't you?

    Parent

    edger (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:22:53 PM EST
    Please provide some proof of your argument.

    Oh. You can't??

    No surprise.

    Parent

    Sure. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:47:12 PM EST
    God you are an idiot (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:45:49 AM EST
    There are many shades in the Muslim faith and I'm not to tell any Muslim where they need to be on that continuum.  Busting down doors and busting into people's houses in Iraq and peering at the women in their at home attire is very violating for most Muslims of that region DUH!  I didn't call any Muslim untrustworthy did I?  I think I said that American Forces in Iraq are untrustworthy in Iraqi minds because we did invade them for no fuggin reason, kill a whole bunch of them and call them collateral damage in our seeking the WMD's they were never going to use on us cuz there weren't any fricken WMD's and our CIC lied his a$$ off to the whole world, and just to make a bad situation even worse give our troops lists of the Baathist party and told them these were all bad guys and go get them and bring them to Abu Ghraib.  If I were an Iraqi Muslim I wouldn't be able to trust you any farther than I can throw your likely chubby butter butt.

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:40:09 AM EST
    You write:

    I think I said that American Forces in Iraq are untrustworthy in Iraqi minds because we did invade them

    Nope. That is not what you wrote. No changing claims allowed on Tuesday mornings, and they say fish oil helps memory. Buy it. Take it. You need it. You wrote:

    It isn't a fun job but it is necessary just like we need to maintain police forces in our own Democracy.  American forces are such pathetic security forces for Iraq because we aren't Muslim. We are the infidel in the Muslim faith so we aren't going to get good intel and without intel we have to bust down the whole neighborhoods doors and violate Muslim homes with our Infidel selves who are unable to observe Muslim manners because we have no idea what they are!

    You played the religion card. My comment was that if religion is such a problem:

    If that is true then no Moslem can ever relocate outside of a Moslem country.

    Or are "our" Moslems "trustworthy" and Iraq's aren't?

    What you are, perhaps unknowningly, is arguing that Moslems should live in enclaves and not have to obey any law except Shari.

    That is really unacceptable and can lead only to conflict.

    BTW - Why do you write "I think I said....??" What you wrote is always right here in the thread. You can read it before you respond and know what you wrote. Is your memory that poor??

    Parent

    You would argue which nostril (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:44:05 AM EST
    a dried up green booger found on the floor came out of just to attempt to appear victorious over some librul.  GOD YOU ARE BORING.

    Parent
    What is your deal today? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:48:05 AM EST
    Everybody kick your booty yesterday or something and because I was busy having a real life too you need me to kick it today?  You just luv to talk yourself some Moslem stuff don'tcha?  I don't care if you don't understand what I mean Jim, what I mean is what I mean and if you don't like what mean or meant I DO NOT CARE.

    Parent
    Let me see... Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:27:13 AM EST
    You called me an idiot, and now you complain when I use your own words??

    You wrote what you wrote. If you want to claim you didn't mean what you said you are free to do so, but only John Edwards, to my knowledge, can channel.

    BTW - Love your potty mouth. What's next, a spanking??? ;-)

    BTW - Your logic is still messed up.

    Parent

    Dude, you are an idiot (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:02:08 PM EST
    the Army says so.  

    Parent
    DA (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:52:07 PM EST
    You think:

    the sun don't shine on the same dog's butt every day

    is potty mouth??

    Pardon me, but you are all hat and no cattle.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Here you go, ppj (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:31:48 AM EST
    Some red blooded Right thinkin' to make you feel all warm and fuzzy this morning. Try not to get your keyboard all sticky.

    Swastikas at Hunter Airfield, and a Rabbi on the Run:

    Captain Robert Nay, a Christian chaplain at the Fort Stewart Army base, hung Nazi uniforms and swastikas on the wall of the officers' club at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia, during a May 23, 2001 interfaith prayer breakfast Goldman was ordered to attend.

    In an interview, Goldman said seeing the Nazi uniforms did not entirely surprise him. A month earlier, Nay had informed Goldman that he thought it would be "funny" if he dressed up soldiers in the Nazi uniforms on Holocaust Memorial Day



    Parent
    So? What's your point?? (1.00 / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:55:19 AM EST
    The guy doing this is nut case. You know it, I know it and the world knows it.

    Just as we know the stuff written by TomJones in the KOS quote Lenny Davis used above.... and the other examples I used, including the one by edger...

    BTW - In my comments to Tracy at 5:55PM yesterday I used no insults to her, or anyone. I invite everyone to read the sub-thread and just see where the insults came from, and when. As Lenny Davis said in his article I linked to above:

    Now, in the closing days of the Lieberman primary campaign, I have reluctantly concluded that I was wrong. The far right does not have a monopoly on bigotry and hatred and sanctimony. Here are just a few examples (there are many, many more anyone with a search engine can find) of the type of thing the liberal blog sites have been posting about Joe Lieberman:

    As I have said time and again. The Far Left and the Far Right are just flip sides of the same coin. To paraphrase Pogo, you have met your enemy and he is you.

    I also note that neither you or Tracy has provided anything that challenges my original comments, instead you just insult.

    Parent

    Hhahahhaha (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:06:24 AM EST
    So this guy is a nut because he believes that some cultures are superior to other cultures, or as you often argue not all cultures are of the same value or importance.

    White supremeticism is a difficult position to uphold when you also claim to be a social liberal.

    From my point of view your so called nut sounds just like you.

    Parent

    One more time (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:03:47 AM EST
    Trying to excuse hate by trying to insinuate that it is an isolated case, an aberration, doesn't work, ppj. It just shows up your willful ignorance.

    Go read the other three articles and watch the video linked to at the bottom of that one article:

    With God on Our Side: Evangelical Christianity On Steroids In  US Military

    Ft. Leavenworth Army Chaplains Preaching Anti-Semitism to US Soldiers

    Anti-Semitic Bible Teachings Disappear From Army Site

    But then, if you had read the article I gave you the link for above, you'd have known that those three links are at the bottom of it, wouldn't you? But you didn't read it.

    You're hanging yourself here this morning, ppj.

    I'm just handing you the rope and watching.

    Parent

    Read Kos' post this morning (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:03:30 AM EST
    for a good example of what his "deal" is and the (lack of) mindset it comes from: O'Reilly's hate mongers

    Parent
    edger - The KOS comments (1.00 / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:40:50 AM EST
    by some nut case are despicable. But they aren't unique, and they aren't one sided.

    How do we get rid of the rest of them? (1.00 / 2) (#7)
    by maheanuu on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:54:27 AM EST
    Perhaps Rat Poison might work, but then even a rat wouldn't be as bad as the repigs in office today.

    And this:

    No. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:41:04 AM EST
    There is no equivalence, ppj.
    White supremacist nutbars have barely grown feet from their flippers and crawled out of the primordial slime pits. They are eons behind anyone they try to demonize.
    There will probably never be equivalence.

    And this from an article by that well known right winger (sarcasm alert) and ex-Clinton staffer Lenny Davis.

    On "Lieberman vs. Murtha":

    "as everybody knows, jews ONLY care about the welfare of other jews; thanks ever so much for reminding everyone of this most salient fact, so that we might better ignore all that jewish propaganda [by Lieberman] about participating in the civil rights movement of the 60s and so on" (by "tomjones," posted on Daily Kos, Dec. 7, 2005).

    So for you, of all people, to talk about hate is remarkable.

    I urge you to quit the snarks and respond with arguments.

    Parent

    The comments Kos' posted (5.00 / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:53:11 AM EST
    aren't by "some nut case", ppj.

    They are from many nut cases:

    And it goes on. You get the point. Irony in spades, layer after layer of it.

    But what can you say when O'Reilly runs the most hate-filled television show in cableland, on the Republican Party's premier propaganda outlet?

    Really, par for the course.

    On second thought, no, you probably don't get the point, ppj.

    Parent

    edger - loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:58:52 AM EST
    I made no claim as to numbers.

    Parent
    "case" (5.00 / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:05:51 AM EST
    vs "cases".

    Want more rope?

    Parent

    Re: (1.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:44:14 AM EST
    I urge you to quit the snarks and respond with arguments.

    Show everyone how. Lead, follow, or jump, ppj.

    Parent

    edger (1.00 / 1) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:01:39 AM EST
    Tracy made a comment.

    I responded with a counter point.

    You declared my argument "pathetic."

    If that is your idea of a counter argument you are welcome to it.

    Parent

    Most of your "arguments" (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:18:13 AM EST
    aren't "arguments", they're trolling comments, and all pathetic.

    One more time, ppj, if you want to urge others to quit the snarks and respond with arguments... Show everyone how. Lead, follow, or jump, ppj.

    Want more rope?

    Too late. You've already jumped, you're halfway down, and even rope won't help you now.


    Parent

    Oy vey (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:45:02 AM EST
    For the record, the tomjones comment was snark and clearly so. Davis was full of it.

    Parent
    Now I see, thank you n/t (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:05:29 AM EST
    Lessons in logic (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:01:01 PM EST
    from the quarter who's every formulation has deepened the disaster since it's inauspicious beginning.

    Parent
    Iran, Iran, Iran... (none / 0) (#8)
    by JHFarr on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 09:35:16 AM EST
    The outlaw bastards are about to bomb Persia. Why is anyone pussy-footing around with Get-Out-of-Iraq strategies? Leaving troops in Irag for some idiotic reason is only going to get them killed, ESPECIALLY after we start another war.

    But the worst thing of all is that the Democrats just don't get it: the Iraq war began with a cascade of lies. We've murdered a million civilians. Anything we do that doesn't acknowledge this is doomed, period. We can't put lipstick on a dead pig and expect anyone to applaud, and the carcass will still stink.

    I'm not voting for any Deathocrats next year. NONE. The way things stand now, that means I get to stay home.

    I Know (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:45:54 PM EST
    That polls of Americans are important but I can't help cringing with the pretense of it all. Since 90% of Iraqis want the US out and Maliki agreeing,  Americans should have no say in the matter. Isn't Iraq a soverign country. Isn't America occupying Iraq against their will.

    Very bad manners to out stay your welcome. Very very bad.